Lies

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My uBPD husband lies with ease. In front of me.  About me sometimes.  He loves to tell stories and entertain an audience but often it is full of nonsense.

He’s joined AA and likes to talk to me about the topics and his meeting shares.  I try to empathetically dissuade him from sharing, but I can only deter so much.  The shares are often total lies.

He is genuinely an alcoholic but he also loves the audience that AA gives him in meetings. I’ve also come to understand that it is much better to admit to being an alcoholic than it is to admitting that he has a personality disorder.

I’ve supported these lies with my polite nods because it is better than his behavior outside of this context but, at this point I am exhausted with listening to the lies as if I don’t have a memory or sense of reality of my own.

Do you have advice for me in this area?  

[Every day]

My uBPD husband lies with ease. In front of me.  About me sometimes.  He loves to tell stories and entertain an audience but often it is full of nonsense.

He’s joined AA and likes to talk to me about the topics and his meeting shares.  I try to empathetically dissuade him from sharing, but I can only deter so much.  The shares are often total lies.

He is genuinely an alcoholic but he also loves the audience that AA gives him in meetings. I’ve also come to understand that it is much better to admit to being an alcoholic than it is to admitting that he has a personality disorder.

I’ve supported these lies with my polite nods because it is better than his behavior outside of this context but, at this point I am exhausted with listening to the lies as if I don’t have a memory or sense of reality of my own.

Do you have advice for me in this area?  

[livednlearned]

Having a uBPD/NPD alcoholic husband is a doozy. And you managed to get him into marriage counseling! That's amazing.

I'm trying to imagine what occurred for him to go to AA in the first place?

You don't mention whether his lying has increased after joining AA. I wonder if lying is helping him manage intense shame or potential exposure to vulnerability. Perhaps it allows him to protect the fragile self constructed, the one who is admitting something is not ok.

My ex would take something true and embellish to the point of absurdity. Spending a few months in India would be presented as "LnL was cultural attache for the Dalai Lama."

I used facial expressions to manage the absurdity. Raised eyebrows, a look of puzzlement.

I'm a fan of using non-verbal communication with my stepdaughter, who is covertly aggressive and likely BPD. I use it to allow us to have socially acceptable interactions without feeling like I'm being steamrollered. I used to validate her and it felt like I was providing narcissistic supply, only to be kicked in the back. It felt like I was volunteering to be used and that didn't feel good.

So I started to say things like, "Oh? Hmmm. Ahhh. Ok. Uh-huh" and if it was about something she wanted recognition for, I would say, "You're proud of this drawing."

I don't know if something like that would work in your marriage. SD25 has to work within the social code of our blended family and she is a waif, so there are some constraints to how she can behave without losing victim status. If you change the way you respond too much, and your H doesn't like it, he might have no issue chastising you for changing. You would have to shrug it off and stick to it without explaining that you're trying to tolerate his grandiosity while maintaining your sanity. Sometimes non-verbal boundaries can be the way to go 

[Every day]

The reason he went into AA is because I told him I wouldn’t tolerate his drinking anymore and he had to choose between drinking and me.  Luckily he had made a new member of his fan club who was sober for 20 years and he was in the glorification phase with her at the time, which made it possible to be open to this.

The way I got him into therapy is that he wanted us to go to sex therapy (our intimacy suffers for many reasons as you can imagine) and I wanted to go to regular counseling for communication and I told him I would go to whoever he picked since he’s never liked any provider of any kind that I have picked, but if he picks someone they have to be good.

It took a year of his complaining about sex therapy and me reiterating that he had to pick someone, anyone, and I would go that he finally caved and picked someone.  Not surprisingly, the “sex therapist” is really more about communication in our sessions anyway.

I think he’s totally oblivious to people’s nonverbals.  It’s got to be pretty overt for him to notice, or if he notices, for him to mention it. Generally, since his relationships outside of me and his kids are so superficial, he’s very entertaining so I’m the oddball sitting listening to the increasingly exaggerated story while everyone else is enthralled, at least initially until they fall away for various reasons.

In terms of my changing my response - I’m used to the chastising regardless and I’m really trying to redefine this dynamic so he has to seek attention elsewhere for at least part of a day.  I like your idea for a response that doesn’t  agree but acknowledges like “you’re proud of ….” I’ve got to think up a few more of these to keep in my pocket because my other option is I just say literally nothing, which seems to provoke the least drama.

[BigOof]

 Every day, have you tried Al-Anon meetings? Or watching a few youtube videos gleaning tips?

[Turkish]

Not surprisingly, the “sex therapist” is really more about communication in our sessions anyway.

I was "sent" to this even though she was supposed to participate. After abandoning me after the first joint session and she obviously resentful that she was there, I asked one question, "is it natural to be turned off by a disrespectful and sometimes abusive partner?" Both female doctors nodded yes, vigorously. I never returned and didn't thereafter have issues. Prior to that, she tried to send me to a couples' communication class by myself 

A few years later and two kids, I was just resentful and tired of the relationship. Tools are good and they can help. I like the idea of non verbal boundaries. Prior to all of that, I took her on a vacation tour of the pacific northwest. She was difficult most of the time whereas I thought, "people travel from around the world to see the things we experienced and saw." At the airport waiting to fly home, she kid of offered that maybe she'd been a bit of a pill. The look on my face shocked her. She laughed and apologized, as sincerely as she could.

We've all been there, perhaps stewing with resentment, but suffering in silence means suffering alone which builds our resentment. The fear might be triggering worse behaviors.

As for the lying? PwBPD lie because it feels like survival (to quote Understanding The Borderline Mother), and it's likely worked in their lives for a long time.

[BigOof]

she tried to send me to a couples' communication class by myself.

The irony is lost pwBPD.

[Every day]

Thanks everyone for your responses and your experiences.  It is helpful to hear that I’m not alone in these issues.  I’ve attended some Al-anon meetings, done a lot of reading and have some counseling. I’m pretty voracious like that. 

I’ve found I pick and choose the lies to call out and the ones to just blow off at this point.  I have found it just mind blowing how he does it openly in front of me and to me.

In our previous therapy session he started out telling the our therapist that I am completely disinterested in sex and never show him any affection.  That it’s been like this for a while.  He went on for minutes about how much this hurts him.  I sat until he was done and described the previous weekend’s sexual interactions (which were numerous over a mere couple of days).  He knows I know what really happened and that I would not just sit there and let him lie so I even asked him at one point how he expected me to respond to that lie and he did some word salad response.

Our therapy has helped in the past months and yesterday after I suggested this for a long time, he asked our therapist for a session for just himself.  She has respectfully seen through his lies in many situations and also helped me communicate my boundaries better but based on past experience am guessing that eventually he will find a reason to stop going as he did with a previous therapist.