How and why did I go back

[Andy1963]

Hi
Some of you may remember me
I posted for several months during the latter part of 2020
I was in the break up spell after 2 years with my bpd girlfriend
Guess what, after almost 5 months she communicate with me and I fell hook line and sinker
Since then my world has been turned upside down
Needless to say, 3 weeks ago she did exactly the same thing as she had done previously and now I'm left a mess all over again,  why why why do they do this?

[Rev]

Hi Andy,

Welcome  back ?   Don't beat yourself up too much. Many of us go back (I did three times) - each time knowing that the chances of it working was less than the time before.

Each time it got worse.

Why do they do this?  Is that question rhetorical, or are you looking for an answer.

What do you think?

Rev

[Calli]

Hi Andy ,
I’m so sorry this happened and for this current struggle of yours. I know it’s hurting and there are all these different feelings about it all mixed in as well.

Oh my goodness, if I had a penny for every time we all have been through a recycling, I’d have more money than that Elon Musketeer guy ;).    First of all, please be gentle with yourself about this  - these relationships are addictive. They truly are.  This is another step in the recovery process, and you’re more savvy now with this stage.  You know it is difficult, but you also know that it gets easier in so many ways, little by little.   For one, not being on the emotional rollercoaster will be a welcome change.  Not having to worry about any little thing that you do or say could be taken the wrong way - always walking on eggshells- you won’t have to feel that anymore.  The inner mental peace that brings is so worth getting through this part.  

As time continues,  your mix of feelings will shift and the calmness will come back to you.  The reminder that there is life beyond her and the relationship - there really is - you’ll remember and you’ll find yourself enjoying little things more and more - it will sneak in amongst the pain.  When you spot those moments, recognize them and give yourself a pat on the back and acknowledge that you felt something good there.  

I am not a seasoned pro here by any means, so I know others will chime in soon and give amazing advice.  Sorry I don’t have much more at the moment, but I wanted to at least express these things to you now, and to also say, we understand. So many of us have been there before, especially me included.  (Lord knows I still have the most la la land daydreams that somehow he’ll return, things will be totally different and better and … Hahah! But now it’s softer in my mind.  In the background.  The hope is a wistful, dream - like how I’d love a unicorn but I know it isn’t possible.).   I’m thankful for all the progress I’ve made, with much gratitude to the lovely folks here on this site.   I’m sending you support and positive wishes too.   And I thank you for posting this, it really resonates with me.

[csquare319]

https://youtu.be/V5kgGDPicgI

This video might have the answer. The reason that they keep coming back is because we keep allowing them to.

Best of luck.

[Andy1963]

Thank you all for your kind and considered replies
Calli,your line regarding watching everything I say and walking on eggshells is so completely accurate
I remember sitting with her, quietly,  watching TV having a few drinks having had a lovely meal and everything seeming perfect,  then boom, she would suddenly announce we needed to split up as she needed to leave me
Bizarre behaviour but very familiar territory for me
I learnt,  or disciplined myself to not rise to it but reassure her and calm her down
So many ordinary every day activities could all of a sudden escalate into chaos and drama for absolutely no reason
I often dreaded days out with her, as I needed to steel myself for the regular glitches and outbursts
No way to live I know,  but in those quiet tender moments she was the most beautiful girl in the world
Right now there is virtually no communication,  I believed last time we split which was for nearly 5 months that it was definitely over yet we got back to a full on relationship,  so believing that she won't try to rekindle would be naive
But as much as I miss her and love her I know its a terrible relationship for me, plus my sister and my eldest son have made it absolutely clear they will never forgive her for what she has done this time

[Andy1963]

I know that she is completely destructive for me
The way we ended this time was cruel and I will never understand it
We had been planning a night out for weeks,  it was actually her suggestion so I put plans in place for us to go for dinner and drinks etc and was really looking forward to it
But a few days before she seemed distant,  I can always tell when she's not connected to me and it was palpable
As the day drew near she started to say she was unwell, on the morning of our date she said she was too ill to go, she perpeturated this throughout the day
But something didn't ring true
That evening she stopped communicating with me, wouldn't reply to messages etc
Long story short, she was with someone else, on a night out, stayed the night in a hotel with him
I discovered the truth the next day when I went to see where she was and saw them together having breakfast at the hotel
I actually felt my that my head was going to explode
No explanation,  no remorse, she now seems to be full on with him, after 4 years I'm nothing,  yet 4 weeks ago she was telling me how in love with me she was
Devastating doesn't begin to explain how I feel...

[NotAHero]

I know that she is completely destructive for me
The way we ended this time was cruel and I will never understand it
We had been planning a night out for weeks,  it was actually her suggestion so I put plans in place for us to go for dinner and drinks etc and was really looking forward to it
But a few days before she seemed distant,  I can always tell when she's not connected to me and it was palpable
As the day drew near she started to say she was unwell, on the morning of our date she said she was too ill to go, she perpeturated this throughout the day
But something didn't ring true
That evening she stopped communicating with me, wouldn't reply to messages etc
Long story short, she was with someone else, on a night out, stayed the night in a hotel with him
I discovered the truth the next day when I went to see where she was and saw them together having breakfast at the hotel
I actually felt my that my head was going to explode
No explanation,  no remorse, she now seems to be full on with him, after 4 years I'm nothing,  yet 4 weeks ago she was telling me how in love with me she was
Devastating doesn't begin to explain how I feel...

 That’s awful I’m sorry it happened to you.

 It is consistent with other stories you will read here. Every recycle they get worse not better. If they did the discard once with a replacement, it is safe to expect they will do it again. At least now you know for sure.

 Your best bet would be to start your own healing and moving on journey. It is one of the worst emotional experiences but it is the best ( I would argue the right ) thing to do.

[Turkish]

Andy1963,

I'm so sorry. That's cruel beyond belief.

Your sister and son told you what they feel. How do you feel about that?

[Andy1963]

I understand that they are worried and concerned for me, they have been there for me through all of this
I worry that I still can't get perspective on all of this
Im still really struggling to come to terms with what happened
As messed up as she is, the cruelty of her actions have completely destroyed me
Im a complete wreck...

[Rev]

If you were to imagine rebuilding yourself like rebuilding an object - like a house or a car - where would be the most logical place to start do you think?

Rev

[Go3737]

The wonderful thing about deal breakers is that once you experience it, you are done...
I'd say that you planning a very special night during a delicate time in your relationship and then...

Long story short, she was with someone else, on a night out, stayed the night in a hotel with him

Is a deal breaker of the highest magnitude.
Perhaps consider it is time to move on and suffer through the Trauma Bond till you are on the other side?

[Andy1963]

I know is is a deal breaker
But I'm just hurting like hell, cannot understand it, despite her BPD I never imagined she would be so completely cruel
Its like she has transformed into someone I don't even recognise
Just want the pain to go away

[Andy1963]

And I recognise that I'm Trauma bonded, I miss her yet I know its totally futile and thst there can never be a future
How could I ever trust anything she says ever again?

[Go3737]

How could I ever trust anything she says ever again?

You can't.
But you want to.
I get it since I am in a similar boat.
We've been separated for 7 weeks after she blew up at me and I walked out after 38 years.
My main issue has been her drinking which sets off the rages.
Our plan is to try again in a few weeks. She promised no drinking this time however I know (through snooping) she is going out this weekend to drink with our son's mother. I cant say anything cause I'd blow my cover of how I know and we are not together yet, and it is going to be a bonding experience for the two grandmas. The justifications for me turning my eyes away are many, yet it pisses me off that she is not embracing sobriety before we reunite.
Lies... it kills relationships cold. Yet the Trauma Bond is so strong I will rug sweep this one incident... but my bag is packed and I'm ready to go if/when she falls back to her old patterns of getting wasted and raging when we are back together again.
In my head I know I should just bail, but my heart says give it one more try.

[Hopeful81]

They come back because while away from us, rational thinking takes over and they realize we were not so bad after all.

When they return, emotions start to reign. Soon they want to escape again and make it permanent this time.

Since we did not hate them enough after their previous bridge burning exercise, they do something much worse than before to ruin the relationship once and for all.

The Depp vs Heard story shows what that ultimately can lead to, or worse.

[brighter future]

Andy,

You may remember me from when you were here the last time roughly a year and a half ago. I've often wondered how you were doing in addition to many others that were here during that period of time. Some are still around and some are not.  I am not here as often as I used to be, but I still check in from time to time.  I'm sorry to hear that you are hurting and that you were treated so poorly again. These relationships sure take their toll on everyone don't they?

I honestly believe if you take some time to yourself to heal from all of this, it will allow you to see things for what they really are. Stepping outside of the relationship and going no contact will give you an entirely different perspective. NC is very painful at first, but I feel it is the best practice if you truly want to move on and desire better for yourself.

My ex discarded me out of the blue in April 2020 with some very cruel words and immediately went to someone else . This was someone that told me how much they loved me and wanted to be with me more than anything just days prior to the discard.  At the advice of my therapist, family, and friends I went full NO contact with her at the middle of May 2020, roughly one month after the split. During the next several months and into early 2021, I began to see the relationship for what it was: an unhealthy codependent mess. I also came to the realization that if she truly loved me in the way that she said she did in a healthy way, she wouldn't have done the things that she did at the end of the relationship. Additionally, I realized that it was unlikely things would ever change with her since she was unwilling to face her issues and get psychiatric help. So, I let go of her bit by bit and worked on changing the only thing I have the power to change, which is myself. I've heard from her and have seen her several times in the last two years. I will acknowledge her when I have to, but I just keep it very simple and matter of fact. She knows that I'm seeing someone else now, and it seems like the contact has lessened over the last several months.

Take care of yourself, my friend. Best wishes and keep us posted on how you are doing.

[Andy1963]

Yes Brighter Future,  I do remember you
I remember being fully engaged with the process and was making significant progress despite not going NC
I guess that was my ultimate downfall
Because I truly believed at the time that we were finished for good, I could see no way back as she had got engaged to the new guy 3 weeks after we split, so I truly thought she had gone for good
I looked back on my posts from back then and I remember feeling ready to move on from her
Then boom,suddenly she asks to meet me, I do and the next 18 months became the rollercoaster again
We were only back together a few months when I lost my mum suddenly and unexpectedly
That obviously devastated me, and although she was supportive during the illness and subsequent death, I often felt that she did so because she thought she should not because she truly felt my pain
A few months later she left me because,  in her words,I was grieving too much
She was gone for a few weeks, tbh right then I didnt care as I was still in the midst of grief
But then she came back and we tried again, although it became the same pattern, glitches, splitting and continuous periods of silence and non communication
But this year was different,  ironically I felt that the month or so before she did what she did, had been out best period for quite a while
Thats probably why it has effected me so badly
I actually thought we were going well and there was a lot of passion and what I believed was a strong connection
But then...boom...out of the blue . I'm history...

[Calli]

Andy,

How incredibly heartbreaking and devastating.  I am so sorry that she did that.  You did not deserve any of it.  None of us deserve the pain and turmoil these people bring into our lives.  Especially when they do it by choice.  How sinister and completely selfish.  It makes total sense that you’re devastated, and shell shocked now.  I would guess (because when it happened to me when my ex discarded me for the last time) swinging between intense anger and back to devastating lows.  Upheaval like you have never felt before (that’s how it felt to me).   The rollercoaster I was on - for two years - with my ex - the silent treatments especially - all of it.  It’s no way to treat another human being, especially not someone they supposedly love.   I couldn’t live like that anymore.  I don’t deserve that. 

Some things I found very helpful in the beginning:   As Guy Winch says in his book, “Getting over a Broken Heart” - it helped me a lot to make a (huge comprehensive) list of all of the things I knew were wrong about my ex for me; all the things he did and said, every single detail - his bad habits, the things he yelled at me, the cutting comments, the big things and the little things I  ignored or swept under the rug.  Every single thing, as soon as it popped into my head.  I then went back to this list and reread it every time my mind started to paint a fantasy again about my ex, and how much I missed him, whenever I felt like I’d lost the true love of my life.   It helped ground me back to reality, pretty fast. 

The next thing, I’m working on still, is my self esteem.  It is clear to me that my very low self esteem (at times) was one of the reasons I put up with him and stayed in that relationship.  Making positive affirmations and self- care and positive reinforcement have been really helping.  Below is a list I keep on my phone (next to the ex-bfwBPd’s “sh*t list” if you will) because it reminds me of what I do deserve. 

Again, thank you for sharing and talking about these things. 
************
I am Enough
I deserve to feel respected as a person.
I deserve to get my physical and emotional needs met
I deserve to be appreciated and not taken advantage of.
I deserve to communicate effectively with my partner
I deserve to have my privacy respected
I deserve to not constantly fight for control
I deserve to feel good about myself and my relationship
I deserve a partnership in which we trust, validate, respect, and support eachother
I deserve to grow within and outside of the relationship
I deserve to have my own opinions and thoughts
I deserve the choice to either stay in or leave the relationship
I deserve a life of freedom and abundance
I create the life I desire
My body is getting stronger and healthier every day
I am loved, loving, and lovable
I am not my thoughts, my feelings are like clouds
What I am feeling in a moment is not permanent, and it will pass.
(The list is from what googled together for myself, btw)

[Calli]

Sorry, the correct title is “How to Fix a Broken Heart” I believe.

[Andy1963]

Thank-you so much for that Calli, I'm experiencing all the feelings at the moment
Non of it seems real yet I know it is
Even just the small things like our messages and conversations throughout the day
We would share so much
Yet because of the lies I now question everything
Right now for me, nothing seems like it was real, it was for me , but it was all a big lie
That's what hurts more than anything,
Right now, I am just a complete mess
Pining for her,which makes me angry, crying at the slightest thing
I was looking on my phone for a pic that my son had asked me for,  and of course I came across endless photos of her and us
Just want the pain to stop...

[SinisterComplex]

Thank-you so much for that Calli, I'm experiencing all the feelings at the moment
Non of it seems real yet I know it is
Even just the small things like our messages and conversations throughout the day
We would share so much
Yet because of the lies I now question everything
Right now for me, nothing seems like it was real, it was for me , but it was all a big lie
That's what hurts more than anything,
Right now, I am just a complete mess
Pining for her,which makes me angry, crying at the slightest thing
I was looking on my phone for a pic that my son had asked me for,  and of course I came across endless photos of her and us
Just want the pain to stop...

Andy, you need to truly be kind to yourself here and take care of YOU. The pain will stop in time, but you know there is no magic wand to make it go away. You have to try to be realistic with yourself...you are hurt and it is ok if it takes a while because you are on no one's timeline but your own. Remember that...don't let others dictate a timeline for you or make you to feel you have to just get over it. There is no just getting over this! That is why I say be kind to YOU.

Now something I will drive home here as I have many times on the board here...try to train yourself to think and feel that it is better to be respected than liked. Why do I say that? To help you learn to get over people pleasing habits which lead to you getting hurt by others. Remember if you try to please everyone you will effectively please NO ONE! Look at the pain you are in and look at the mental anguish you are not only feeling, but displaying. Start telling yourself this is not going to happen again. This is a prime learning experience for you now. You do not want to experience this again. So, make changes...it won't be easy, but in time if you train yourself and practice it will become habit and will then seem natural. You won't be "trying" you will just be DOING.

Keep your head up. You are going to be better and you will do better. Believe in that and make it so!

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Andy1963]

Thankyou SC
I know completely that I have to focus on me, I also know from the last time we split that the pain will ease
I'm trying to keep busy, my job is very demanding so that helps
I'm not as disciplined as I need to be though,  I took a walk down by the shore last night, it is a walk we would have done regularly,  I know I shouldn't have done it as it made me incredibly sad
Im ruminating a lot which I also know isn't helping me
So I'm going to have to be more disciplined and avoid things like that

[Calli]

I know that pain very well.  I know it hurts so much.  And that thought, the fear that it was all a lie, did any of it matter to them? Did they care?  One of my first posts here I was desperate in pain - I felt those thoughts and pain swirling through and I couldn’t let go.  I think it was Once Removed who replied to me then - actually felt like someone had reached out and caught my hand just as I was going under the waves.  He replied that it did happen, my ex was there, I was there, it was real.  It doesn’t help any of our grief to be questioning what they were lying about.  What we do know is what happened to us.  How we felt. And how we were authentic; this pain is authentic.  That is real.  But it’s true that my ex and I were on different pages. ( Different books entirely, turns out). I knew that, and I know that, and it was time to move forward.  And as I go through the grieving process, every day that passes it gets easier.  Every minute I get better.  And now, I don’t see those photos, or rehash our conversations or love,   I’m in a new relationship and it’s EASY.  Imagine that!  Eye opening.  There is light ahead, Andy.  Today, make a note of any tiny improvement from yesterday. Maybe you were able to hold off a bit longer from ruminating than you did yesterday.  That’s great. Be gentle and praise yourself for every baby step.  It’s going to get better.   

[Calli]

I think also, part of why these doubts crop up about - was it even real to them?  Is because our brains just cannot understand how someone can go from singing our praises, telling us we are the loves of their lives in one minute - and in the next, just drop us.  And without explanation.  Sometimes just in a moment.  It makes no rational sense.  The only way our (neurotypical) brains can make an ounce of sense is if we conclude they never cared at all - they just faked and it was all a lie.    But that is forgetting one major thing:  BPD sufferer’s brains are not neurotypical at all.  I’m no BPD expert, but from what I’ve read - they are very much in the moment with things;  much more short-term (they lack object constancy).  I believe they truly do feel what they say they feel in these intense moments.   It’s true and not false to them.  But at the same token, they can jump ship without a care -  cut loose to save themselves at a moments notice, or when something else has caught their attention.  So much like a toddler, right?  Interrupted brain development as they grew.   I think I read many have had abusive childhoods.  Probably requiring them to adapt at a moments notice to the precarious mood of their caregiver for their own survival.   

What I’m trying to say is - logic simply does not apply to your ex’s case when trying to figure out her motives or beliefs in all of the happenings.  And it’s not worth the effort to figure out the thought process either - because they change it, like a chameleon.  At a moments notice.   

[Andy1963]

Thankyou Calli, I have read so much on these last few weeks about the various elements that make up our BPD exes
Object constancy was something I have been getting an understanding of in the last few days
I know my rational brain will eventually kick in and make some sort of sense of all of this
But like you say, its difficult beyond belief right now
This dilemma in my head,  thinking at some point she might come to her senses and tell me its all a big mistake,  yet realising that's crazy thinking
Even if she did, how could I ever reconcile what she did at the end
I really never believed she could be so cruel
I have experienced her nasty side on many occasions but this is beyond anything I ever thought her capable of, especially as we were as close as we had been for quite a while in the weeks leading up to this
I know my focus must be on healing and that she can never be in my life again,
That thought in itself is quite frightening but I must accept it as reality ...

[Calli]

I hear you.  I know how it feels.  Now, I’m at the point where most days are good.  I will get a difficult day now and then, but I have such a great support network.  I know I will always love my ex.  Always.  Nothing I can do about it, so I accept it.  But of course I know, like you do about your ex, he is not right or healthy for me.  My heart did break, but it is healing and I know I have great people and things in my life to move forward with. 

How is your support network during this time? 

[Andy1963]

Well I have my children, I'm very close to my eldest son and my sister has been very supportive
However, they don't really understand BPD, my sister just says she's a horrible person who clearly didn't ever love me and refuses to accept the BPD as a reason
My son is very similar,  he hates her now and said he would really struggle if I ever let her into my life again
So they're there and they love me and are worried about me but BPD isn't on their radar, they just detest her now

[Andy1963]

Going through the whole gamut of emotions today
Anger, denial, resentment,  disbelief
But moreover extraordinary sadness and an acute sense of loss
We seemed to be in quite a connected place for many weeks leading up to this, our passion and level of communication was very strong, we told eachother that we were the loves of eachothers lives
We spoke and messaged a 100 times each day
How it can just disappear in a heartbeat is beyond belief
I know I will wake up from this nightmare at some point and begin to heal
But I actually feel like I'm suffering from PTSD, I'm literally struggling to get through each day

[Calli]

I’m glad you have your kids and sister.  It is hard for anyone to understand these types of relationships and breakup traumas if they haven’t known someone with BPD.   After I discovered this site, it was like a whole new world opened up to me - I wish I’d found it earlier - I had never known all of the nuances I’ve learned of this disorder.  I think it is entirely possible you could have a form of PTSD - what’s happened is shocking.  All of a sudden, this connection was severed in a traumatizing way, without warning.   These relationships with BPD sufferers are entrenched with trauma bonding, and what you may be experiencing is the severing of the trauma bond.  I don’t joke when I say it’s similar to an addict in withdrawal - the fix is no longer there.   I have learned that the loss of romantic love has some of the same effects on our brains as what happens when a drug addict is in withdrawal.   

One important part of my ability to recover from the loss has been by going to therapy regularly.  My therapist has been part of my support network along with my friends and family.  I am not sure if you’ve mentioned it yet,  are you seeing a mental health professional? - if not, I would recommend giving one a try.  If there’s ever a time to try it out, this is it.  Have you given that option a thought? 

[Andy1963]

I live in Northern Ireland,  the waiting list for therapy through the health service and privately is almost one year, I have tried to arrange it but it is proving impossible
I feel cast adrift and completely lost right now
I want to make sense of it but I can't
Because we were so connected prior to this I feel like I've been hit by a train
This chasm has opened and I cannot make sense of anything,  its frightening

[Calli]

How frustrating and unfortunately all too common that it can be challenging to get in.  Here in Canada it’s better certainly (still not the best) I know we are fortunate.  We do have emergency mental health lines to call, not sure if there’s an option like that where you are?  I wonder if any of our moderators or members might have more concrete resources to suggest for you?  In the meantime, please do continue reaching out. We are here for you.

[drumdog4M]

Besides this website, one of the best resources I have used is listening to the audiobook of "Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist." It really helped me understand what I was going through. I listen to it when I start ruminating.

If you haven't read or listened to it, it might be worth checking out. Keep posting here. We are all here to support you.

[Turkish]

I live in Northern Ireland,  the waiting list for therapy through the health service and privately is almost one year, I have tried to arrange it but it is proving impossible
I feel cast adrift and completely lost right now
I want to make sense of it but I can't
Because we were so connected prior to this I feel like I've been hit by a train
This chasm has opened and I cannot make sense of anything,  its frightening

Andy1963,

I'm sorry that you feel adrift and lost right now, and have to wait to get support.

We have lines on this side of the pond in north America. I found one for you:

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/lifeline-freephone-helpline

They have a free number: telephone 0808 808 8000

It might help just to talk to someone there who would be non judgmental and supportive. The call is anonymous as well. We will of course keep supporting you here 

[Andy1963]

Hi all
Thankyou so much for all your kind words and support , it means everything
This forum really helped me before and one of the most difficult things for me is that I was getting better and stronger last time yet I still let her back in and almost completely forgot everything I had learned  here
I will look into the links and resources you have posted for me , thankyou again for those
I just have to take it day by day
I haven't went NC and I know that's important
I am watching lots of videos and reading articles and they are really helping me gain some perspective
I will be ok
Last year when I lost my mum was the most difficult year of my life and I'm still getting on with life
I think closure, or the lack of it, is one of the hardest parts
Thanks all once again for your support

[Andy1963]

After 5 weeks of nothing,  a message from her today
Asking how my new job is going and saying to enjoy my sons wedding,  that she had been invited to
What the hell?
After nothing but silence...?

[Turkish]

After 5 weeks of nothing,  a message from her today
Asking how my new job is going and saying to enjoy my sons wedding,  that she had been invited to
What the hell?
After nothing but silence...?

Is this the son who will never forgive her, or another son that invited her to his wedding?

[Andy1963]

My younger son,
She was invited to the wedding,  but why send me this
It was just unexpected
Bit I know to expect that
Spoke to a close friend tonight who said ignore,  block,  do not respond its charming
But it had an effect, and definitely knocked me off course

[Go3737]

We are now seperated for about two months. We spent this past father's Day together at our son's new home with our first granddaughter.
My wife was here for three weeks prior helping with the move in and with the baby. All was peaceful.

The weekend was pleasant. No drama. We slept in the same bed. and sometimes held hands. No other affections. I was frustrated but understood the dynamics of time apart and feeling we both have about it.

She left yesterday to go back home while I stayed for a few days helping with the "man stuff" my son has no time for. And i help with the baby too.

All good.

When she left we hugged tight, she kissed me and told me she loves me.

Then she went out last night to a bar and got very drunk. I spoke with her at 10 PM. Slurring but she was honest about going out.

My boundary has been and is, since i left, that i will not live with her if she is drinking since when drunk is when she rages. She has told me when we are together she will not drink. Yet she drinks during this "separation".

What are the odds of that?

What are the odds that I will be back here in a few weeks saying I left again after an even worse discard like Andy went through?

What are the odds that I will be back here in a few weeks saying we are making it work?

I hate this uncertainty.

[Andy1963]

Still struggling with everything
Her message didn't help, I believe it was a bit of charming
Need to go NC but I really find that difficult although I know its essential

[Go3737]

Yes Andy, It is extremely hard to not contact them.
I have major doubts about going back.

[Andy1963]

Major charming this morning,  message asking me if I've been with anyone since we split
What the hell?...

[Calli]

Andy,
It’s so difficult when they haunt you like this.  I bet from her perspective she’s hoping to get back together.  She doesn’t have a clue the damage she’s done - from her perspective it’s out of sight, out of mind - or she’s so self-absorbed she doesn’t have empathy or the ability to truly put herself in someone else’s shoes (or she couldn’t bare to face the pain she causes others and chooses not to). 

Phew.  I would urge you not to reply if possible.  (Or somehow let her know you do not want to talk to her - but there’s the risk that if you engage she may see it as her foot’s in the door). so best to ignore and block so you don’t get these messages. 

I’m curious, what was her excuse when you confronted her about the affair?  Did she show any remorse or ask for any forgiveness? 

[Andy1963]

She has never explained or shown any remorse
I stupidly replied and there has been quite lot of dialogue,  but surprise surprise, she started blaming me for a few things I said in the aftermath, saying what I said was horrible
All I did was point put her cruelty and that I couldn't believe she would do such a horrible thing
I mean, she seems totally devoid of any shame or guilt
Its really upset my day

[Andy1963]

Such a stressful day
She started off being quite flirtatious,  drawing me in
Then the gaslighting starts
From virtually no communication for weeks she was full on
I actually believe she has other issues besides BPD, her personality totally changes
When we split, the person I had been with had disappeared,  it was if I was a stranger to her
But I recognised this persona from the last time we had a long break
Even the few messages she sent at that time were identical in words to those she sent that time
I scrolled back two years of messages to find them as I thought I was going mad
Then the pattern repeats
When she came back the last time there were a few episodes like today's, very similar message patterns in the weeks before we met again
Some kind and loving, then some gaslighting and blame shifting
Eventually then we met and we got back
So its consistent pattern repetition
I feel like I'm reliving the exact same period, her language,  her use of words, her splitting continuously through the day
Its exhausting
And I guess she caught me at a very vulnerable time, I was trying to distance myself from any thoughts of her, but yesterday was a struggle, really missing her
Strange, I woke up early this morning,  but decided to stay in bed
I have a unique tone on my phone for her messages, as I lay this morning  I thought,  I wonder if I'll ever hear that tone again, what if she messaged this morning?
Then ping...
Its so bizarre
I know everyone will say i need to go NC, but I'm really struggling with that
Bear in mind, up until 5 weeks ago we were a couple who had told eachother that we loved eachother completely
So my void right now is just enormous
Its a terrible illness, I actually truly feel sorry for her, despite everything
The splitting today was off the scale
Got to find a way past this ...

[Calli]

Hi Andy,

How were things today for you?  I’m not surprised your ex never showed remorse, and this current exchange you’ve had with her also sounds so familiar.  It’s incredible how many of us could tell almost the same story verbatim - it’s enough to make me paranoid that many of us had the exact same ex (how bizarre and what a dark coincidence that would be!)

One thing that occurs to me - I think it’s excellent that you’ve noticed her pattern now - this cycle is clear to you - it makes it harder to fall back into a recycle then, perhaps.  That’s an awakening and a step forward, in my opinion. 

Have you thought about calling the number that was given above?  I wonder if talking to someone aloud will also be helpful during this struggle. 

Here for you

[Rev]

Then ping...
Its so bizarre
I know everyone will say i need to go NC, but I'm really struggling with that
Bear in mind, up until 5 weeks ago we were a couple who had told eachother that we loved eachother completely
So my void right now is just enormous
Its a terrible illness, I actually truly feel sorry for her, despite everything
The splitting today was off the scale
Got to find a way past this ...

Hey there bud...

Yep... the first weeks are the worst.

Try not to think too far in the future. Day by day - do what ever you need to stay in balance or regain your balance when stuff like this happens.

Keep reaching out here.

Can I offer you a reframe?

You say - gotta to find a way past this.

What would it mean for you to say something like - gotta learn to live with this until it eventually passes? 

Thoughts?

Rev

[Cliffton]

Hi Andy,

I'm in exactly the same boat mate with what could be the exact same woman -the similarities in their behaviour and acting "to type" are really unbelievable and scary. I too struggle with NC although I understand the rationale, it just doesn't sit right with me breaking communication channels with anyone who has been important in my life let alone my partner of the last 4 years. I'm intent on keeping some distance between us though as living together has been a nightmare - she's left 4 times and the 5th time this Sunday on my request after I couldn't put up with the usual splitting antics all through the day. No one believes you when you tell them; I always get ... well what did you do to start that? what did you do/say? you must have done something. They don't understand that logic and reasoning has no relevance whatsoever to the BPD behaviour swings and patterns..

Hang on in there mate; I'm struggling as well as she's the woman I've felt the most love for throughout my life and I thought I'd won the jackpot. I still say to people (when trying to justify the, to them stupid behaviour, of staying in the relationship) if I was asked on my death bed what woman had I loved the most, laughed the most with, had the best times/sex/holidays with ...the answer would be this one. She'd also be the one who had caused me the most grief.

All the very best.

[Andy1963]

Thankyou all for your thoughts and support
Things took a step in a very strange direction,  she called me, trying to say that she wouldn't be in communication with me anymore,  then suddenly asking me if I was meeting other woman and how that was going
Told me that the thought of it excited her
Then suggested meeting for a coffee, and then cancelling it all within an hour of the conversation
I truly believe she is having some sort of a breakdown,  she got quite aggressive at one point then in the next breath saying she hated that I was hurting so much
When she rang to say the coffee idea was a bad one she started ranting about how stressful her life was and that I could never understand
Heard practically nothing since then
I am now going to have to focus on me as she is beyond anything I've experienced with her before
However,  I am very worried about her wellbeing,  definitely in a very volatile place

[Rev]

However,  I am very worried about her wellbeing,  definitely in a very volatile place

Here is one thing that you need to know about her - maybe two or three even.

1) She is showing you what she wants to show you right now. Don't read too much into how volatile she is being.

2) pwBPD are really good at one thing. And that is - knowing how to live with their condition by thinking about themselves first. She doesn't need you to worry about you. She WANTS you to worry about her. Not the same thing. She will find a way to survive.

3) What can you focus on right now to break this cycle?  Put another way, what is your worry serving you right now? 

Hope this helps.

Rev

[Andy1963]

I understand that everything she is doing right now is completely self serving and pays no regard to me or my feelings
It was everything I could draw from her to get her to acknowledge my pain, but she framed it as a reluctance to want to be responsible for it
At no point did she accept that my pain was caused by her actions and absolutely refused to even accept that the event in question had such a devastating effect on me
Instead she made an issue of me having confronted them and creating a scene, which I actually didn't
Then tried to equate my hurt to a situation a few years ago when a girl we had become acquainted with had sent me a few texts
I hadn't told her at the time because they were totally innocent,  but she discovered the messages and accused me of cheating,  I had barely even messaged the girl
Ever since she made an issue of it, and now she is saying that it equates to what happened lately
How crazy is that

[Rev]

How crazy is that ----  I must admit that every time I think there's a bottom, something comes along to remind me that it is pretty bottomless.

[Calli]

Things took a step in a very strange direction,  she called me, trying to say that she wouldn't be in communication with me anymore,  then suddenly asking me if I was meeting other woman and how that was going
Told me that the thought of it excited her

I can understand if that seems out of her usual character that it would make you very concerned for her mental health.  And the way she seems to be swinging back and forth on things like meeting for coffee/communicating. I can see why you would be alarmed, it sounds unstable.

I am now going to have to focus on me as she is beyond anything I've experienced with her before
However,  I am very worried about her wellbeing,  definitely in a very volatile place

In my opinion, you’re on the right track taking a step back and focusing on your own healing.  It sounds like you understand that you’re not her savior, you can’t help her and it’s not your responsibility to do so.  It’s good you know that.  She is an adult, and is capable of taking care of herself. 

As Rev says,

.

1) She is showing you what she wants to show you right now. Don't read too much into how volatile she is being.

2) pwBPD are really good at one thing. And that is - knowing how to live with their condition by thinking about themselves first.

You really can’t trust her - you cannot know whether she’s trying to manipulate you, trying to get you to feel concern so that you pay attention to her - I’m sure she’s craving any and all of the attention types from you and others.  I would view it as a trap, and disengage and distance in whatever ways you can.   I think you realize that now, deep down, and have admitted it to yourself.   She is outside of your ability to help, nor are you obligated in any way to her. 

Maybe it’s a blessing in disguise, even if it does cause you much concern?  What do you think? 

[Andy1963]

Yes Calli, I did actually use the phrase blessing in disguise to a friend when discussing it
I know that a long term sustainable relationship with her is impossible , if I'm honest I've probably always known that
Strangely,  after another period of silence she sent me a message just as I was typing my last message on here
Just a random thing about the Elvis movie had I seen it( im a big Elvis fan)
That was it, from the madness of two days, silence then a message out of the blue as if were still best friends
Im staying quiet and keeping myself busy
Thats all I can do at the moment
Still feel as if my head is on upside down though ...

[Go3737]

This sounds just like what I am going through.
I haven't been home for almost three months. Tonight I go back to "work on things".

Yesterday she texted and called me hundreds of times giving me such PLEASE READ so I shut off my phone and she continued to threaten me and say she is leaving.
Of course this morning she was home and all sweet.

I have voice recorders ready to run before i walk in the door in case she flips out and calls the cops.

The plan is tomorrow morning we tell each other what we need from the other. I am sure she will stick to her guns until I begin to walk out again (i will not unpack my suitcase. Then she will probably cave and agree to my terms... then... I ask for her burner phone which I found out she definitely has... I suspect the major fireworks to begin and I will have to leave and end this.

I would be shocked if she admitted to having the phone.

I spent the last months preparing for divorce should it come to that so i wont be in shock being unprepared.
Lawyer lined up, Separate checking account and PO Box. All important papers stashed outside of home safely.

This is making me sick!

I must admit I am visiting my cousin who is gay (with a partner) and we slept in the same bed at the hotel a couple of nights cuddling only... it felt great as I have not had that for a very long time. I broke down crying last night and she just held me and rocked me and sang me soft songs as I wept.

Wish me luck.

[Andy1963]

Just an update
Im starting to feel better, I know the advice on here is always NC but for me I find that very difficult
So we have had sporadic communication
My son gets married tomorrow,  she was invited,  although quickly uninvited
She seems obsessed with me buying a new suit and almost begging me to buy one, I have a perfectly good suit so no need but she has now messaged me every day this week , after 6 weeks of nothing
Why this , almost every day, asking have I got a new suit yet, I keep saying no, she keeps saying I need one
Whilst I'm feeling better,  I still love and miss her so much, yet I know there can be no future
I'm beginning to lose the rose tinted memories though and starting to remember all the deeply hurtful things that happened,  either by her actions or her words
My good memories are now being overshadowed,  the fact that we could never resolve minor or any issues because she argued like a child, I know why
My mind is now gravitating towards life being much better without her, because I absolutely know it is
As my sister says, she is someone else's problem now,
Yes, she is still seeing the other guy, but as I said to her in our brief telephone call...what the hell are you doing
Its complete madness

[Andy1963]

Quite a lot of splitting in the last few days during text communication

One minute I'm good, next I'm the devil

But one line in a text has revealed everything I've known, she has no idea what love is
She said ...

'I did love you, what I understand to be love.'

Thats without doubt the most revealing message I've ever received from her, she has no idea how much it shows her inability to actually love anyone
She often said the words to me, yet her actions and behaviour suggested otherwise
Now I get it ...

[Go3737]

"she has no idea what love is"

I got that too.

[brighter future]

'I did love you, what I understand to be love.'

Thats without doubt the most revealing message I've ever received from her, she has no idea how much it shows her inability to actually love anyone
She often said the words to me, yet her actions and behaviour suggested otherwise
Now I get it ...

That statement is very telling, Andy. This made me think of something that my ex said to me roughly 2 months into our relationship. She had met some of my friends a week or two beforehand, and I told her my friends thought she was very nice and personable. Her reply was, "That's nice, but their minds will likely change later on. Once people really get to know me, they end up not liking me. People usually don't stick around too long in my life."

Just yesterday I learned that she is engaged to be married to the guy that she left me for. Prior to that she left him for me, and before that she left her ex-husband and went straight to this guy. While we were in a relationship she told me her relationship with him "was a mistake and was just a rebound". "I slept with him because I didn't know when I was ever going to have sex again. This isn't who I am or who I want to be."  After me, it was just rinse and repeat with him again because that is who she apparently is.  Now he's the love of her life.  Like you said above, "She often said the words to me, yet her actions and behaviour suggested otherwise." Just over two years later, I'm still thankful that it's not me. Better him than me.  Hang in there my friend.

[Goosey]

Black or white.
That’s all they can give us.
And when someone else can feed the monster who is clueless of the morning after….suffer, then move on.

[Andy1963]

One if the biggest elements of her condition for me is her absolute short term memory
A few weeks ago she messaged me asking had I seem the new Elvis movie
We communicated for a day or so then silence
Now after another period of silence,  out of the blue, almost exactly the same message
I mean why does it matter,  did I not answer the first time
Is this the start of recycling?
Then she moves on to tell me how much she loves my singing,  and asks for a recording ( i sing a bit)
Yet...she's still with this other guy
Please

[20yearslater2022]

Good Evening All,

I'm not quite sure where to start as I have been lurking and learning here for the better part of a decade.  It is because of the wisdom, honesty, and vulnerability I encountered on this site so very long ago and consistently over the years that I am able to thrive today.

I still browse from time to time, especially when I need a selfcare reminder or validation.  The validation this site provides is extremely powerful, exclusive, elusive, and can be the difference between life and death, reality and fantasy.  These relationships can leave us at our lowest with an exaggerated feeling of worthlessness and an extremely warped sense of reality.

Please take everything you read here extremely seriously.  Listen to the advise and get help, (nothing has to be decided immediately).  Do the work, find out why you contribute to this dysfunctional relationship and take care of yourself.

I remember the first time I found this site, I was so relived, and so arrogant!  It felt like the weight of the world had been Iifted off my shoulders.  I was so excited, it explained everything, finally!  I was so excited to share and my new found knowledge with my wife, what a rookie mistake!

As you have read so many times before this resulted in my immediate devaluation, followed by multiple arrests, false allegations, and recycles over a five year period. 

It really is text book and just when you think it is over or cant get worse, look out!

As I dug deeper, I remember thinking these people on bpd family are so bitter!  No way you can predict a person reactions!  No way this will happen to me!  She loves me!  Nobody can predict the future!

It all happened!  Every story I read on here, right down to the police charges, the false abuse allegations, the cheating, and the charming.

15 years of verbal and physical abuse, multiple counsellors, friends, lawyers, girlfriends, and family members could not convince me there were serious issues with my wife, my marriage, and within myself.

I remember thinking these people are f****d.  They are jealous and jaded that they did not get a second, third, forth, tenth...chance.  They did not try hard enough!  They could not change! They could not adapt!  They could not work the tools!  They are turning their backs on their vows, etc...

I double down on my marriage.  Neglecting the wisdom and the knowledge I had studied and encountered here for so many years.


The second time I found this site it was in desperation for my mental health, my life, my children, and my finances after another devastating split in 2020.  The reality of the past 15years hit me all at once.

Thankfully due to my past experiences and education on this site I was able to recognize the issues and got help immediately.  Ultimately separating reality from the dysfunction and I was able to turn my positive attention to myself and my children.

I guess felt I should share as I have been reading a lot of new posts about reconciliation and hope.  I can absolutely assure you if you want to continue this relationship it is 100% in your control.  No matter how heart broken, worthless, replaced, or abandoned you feel at the moment. 

I suggest you take this very seriously, set your ego aside, and find the strength to understand your own needs, mental illness, the seriousness of your partners mental illness, and why you were willing to tolerate, participate, or fantasize this relationship in the first place.

This is where the real work begins and is the true key to recovery and happiness.  When you get here there will be zero desire to return to the dysfunctional dynamics of a BPD relationship and sacrifice an unlimited world of possibilities.

Thanks,


Just my opinion

[Andy1963]

I really do realise that she is playing me completely
She goes quiet for a few days then suddenly a message,  she knows I will respond
I feel like I'm I fly wrapped and in her web, she comes and prods me every now and again to check that I'm still responsive, she will decide when she wants to feast again
I actually feel like I'm in a living nightmare,  can't seem to shake myself loose
I know all the advice is to block and move on
Every bone in my body seems to be resisting that
Part of me actually thinks she is truly evil,  playing with my feelings, knowing I will respond
Feeling completely lost

[babyducks]

Hello Andy,

I've been following along on your thread for a little while now.  I hope you don't mind if I add a couple of thoughts.

I can see you are really hurting.  I was in a similar place once too.   Like many of us here I climbed up out of that hole.   You can too.   

I really do realise that she is playing me completely

maybe she is.    probably she is.     still, isn't the bigger question what do you want to do about it.   

you say you don't want to go No Contact.    Okay.   I never really went No Contact.   Not really my choice,  just the way things played out.   Lots of people here don't go No Contact.   They share children.   Or work together.   Or have some connection that they can not sever.

What do you want to do instead?    Here is what I know from my own experience.   We need to be 100% responsible for our own 50% of these relationships.   

There is usually a reason why we enter and stay in these dysfunctional relationships.    There is usually a reason why we tolerate so much bad behavior.    Those reasons have much more to do with us, not with them.

The way you describe her, you seem to be giving her all the power in the relationship.    and I don't think that is actually true.   I think you can make decisions.  I believe you are strong enough to go in any direction you want.

What I found to be true for me is that being trapped in the cycle of abuse meant the relationship became a cycle: waiting – hoping – hurting – being angry – forgiving – forgetting – and all over again.   It takes some internal strength to break the cycle of abuse.   And I know you can break free.   

Being in a relationship like this is like an addiction.    and the way to stop being stuck in that addiction is to make one decision.  one simple decision to do something differently.    just for today.    can you turn your phone off for an hour and go for a walk?       can you post here helping someone else?    can you turn your focus away from her and onto something else?   anything else?  can you start to look at why it is you actually do go back?   

there is usually a reason we enter these chaotic relationships and a reason we stay so long.    it's our job to figure out why we get so fixated on a relationship we know isn't healthy for us.    that's our stuff.     when I was first here, a very long time ago,  I used to get very upset to read that we pick partners that are a match for us in some way.    bothered me terribly to read that.    now after time I can see the truth in that statement.    I was so hooked on the idealization phase of the relationship.   I have never been loved like that in my whole life and I was willing to do almost anything, put up with almost anything to get that phase back.

what do you think?    can you turn your focus on to you and take a stab and figuring out why every bone in your body is resisting letting go?    what do you think is still available for you in this relationship?     and if there is something still available, what do you think is the best way to go about getting it?

'ducks

'du

[Andy1963]

Thankyou so much babyducks for that
It really resonates with me
I absolutely know that this relationship is bad for me, everyone around me has been telling that for years now
I never initiate the messages,  however I do respond and she knows I will
Im not even sure what part of what we had i actually want anymore,  there's a strong physical attraction,  she is a very attractive woman
So I do miss our intimacy,  but beyond that it was a very difficult relationship for me
Constantly walking on eggshells,  I know don't miss lots of things that made me uneasy and insecure,  her constant lies, cheating,  gaslighting
But you're right, I feel like I'm addicted to her
She knows exactly which buttons to press with me
Right now we are back in silent mode, this usually lasts a few days so I'm going to try not to think about her and if and when she does text, I will try to resist replying
I just want the pain to stop
But I know it will take time

[babyducks]

Upstream you mentioned a trauma bond and ptsd.  I understand what you are referencing.   Those are pretty common feelings for most of us.

When we are in these types of relationships we over focused on our difficult partners.    We become fixated on them.  Hypervigiliant and over identified with them.   It's a protective measure.   Subconsciously we try to keep our selves safe by pouring 100% of our energy into them.   

When they abandon us we feel bereft.    We keep trying to pour our energy into their empty bucket.   

What we often miss is that our bucket is empty and we should be pouring energy into it.

You are right of course.    Time will lessen the pain you feel.

What I would like to suggest is that you you consider being more proactive about your healing plan.

If you were to make a list, a no holds barred, the sky is the limit list of healing steps just for you, what would it look like?  If you were to put yourself first how could you go about that?

I'm sure people here would share how they healed.  The steps they took.   What worked for them.

[Andy1963]

I have used the word bereft so many times when trying to explain how I feel
The bucket analogy is so pertinent to me
I felt after two years that I was emotionally and mentally drained, I had given absolutely every ounce of me, trying to maintain a balance
And yes, trying to rediscover that initial idealisation that made me feel like a million dollars
But I know now that was an illusion,  that person wasn't real
Yet today my rational brain can't make sense of that
I was always true, I was always me
Im struggling so much with my own self esteem right now, its crippling me
And its probably why I keep responding to her messages
Plus my sense of loneliness and isolation
Because I poured so much into her and us I cut myself off from other people,  family and friends who cares about me
I now feel tremendous guilt imposing on them now

[Andy1963]

As far as my bucket is concerned
I feel it is completely empty
My codependency is a major issue
Ive tried to arrange therapy as I know its something I need to work on, but its becoming so difficult to arrange
I even reached out privately but nothing available
But I've started a journal,  to self therapise a little
And given myself some little personal goals
Its all I have control over

[babyducks]

hello again Andy,

I can't help but notice that some of the language you use to describe yourself is pretty stark.   do you think we can take a look at some of that?

you see, the way we feel about things comes from how we think about things.  the way we feel about any event comes from the way we talk about it to ourselves in our own heads.

I know this sounds weird.    but hang in there with me for a second.   

let's say a bunch of us are sitting on a park bench watching kids play on some monkey bars.    one kid nearly falls but at the last moment Mom catches him and the day is saved.

those of us on the park bench experience that differently.   one of us could be thinking 'wow that was close, that kid could have been badly hurt, that was frightening'.   

another could be thinking 'thank goodness Mom caught him at the last moment, I feel relieved that turned out so well'.

another could be thinking ' why do they make those stupid monkey bars so high like that,  that makes me angry'.

same event.  but the thinking about it frames the feelings the folks on the bench experience.   make sense?

the same is true for us.   the words we use to describe the experience to ourselves frames how we feel about it.    our feelings come from our thinking.

so if we describe things as a tangled web that we can never get out of, our words create our reality.   

let's look at this:

Only She Will Ever Make Me Happy.

I'm thinking that only she will ever make me happy.

I'm noticing that I am thinking again that only she will ever make me happy.

Each time I re-frame the thought I distance myself from it a little bit.   and every time I distance myself I feel less upset by it.     this is the core of ACT therapy. 

Acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) teaches mindfulness skills to help individuals live and behave in ways consistent with personal values while developing psychological flexibility.

mindfulness skills and flexibility are good to develop.   inside of ACT is an idea called Cognitive Defusion – This is a mindfulness strategy that involves recognizing our psychological experiences objectively rather than perceiving them as perceived threats or realities. Our feelings, therefore, are simply feelings and not omens of impending doom. Thoughts are thoughts and not necessarily true, clever, or important.

you can google more if you are interested by the purpose of cognitive defusion is backing us away from the rigid thinking that causes us pain.    the amount of pain we experience about something is related to how rigid we are holding ourselves.    and that is true whether it is physically or mentally.   when you go get a shot at the doctor - what do they tell you - relax your arm it will hurt less. the same is true of our thinking,   the more we can relax our thinking the less fearful, the less uncomfortable we will be.

please understand that I am not saying this isn't difficult.   oh my it certainly is.   still the more we tell ourselves 'she knows exactly what buttons to press' the more we create a reality where she has all the power and we have very little.   if we can re-frame that to 'right now my buttons are being pushed but they are my buttons and I know I am in charge of them'   the more the power shifts back to where it belongs.     I know I am making it sound simple.   it certainly isn't.   most of us have inner voices that don't do us any favors.    and we are so used to living with a vicious inner critic that we almost don't pay any attention any more.   still the truth is we are in charge of our thoughts.   and we can move them.   a tiny litle bit at a time in a direction that is more friendly and kind to us.

what do you think?

[Andy1963]

Once again thankyou for this
The last time we had a major breakup like this I came to this board and spent months learning, posting and trying to heal
I engaged in many mindfulness techniques to try to find peace and escape the pain
Looking back now at that time( I have reread many of my posts from then)
I can remember starting to feel better and stronger
I recognised the futility of the relationship back then and at that time I truly believed we were finished for good
But I had underestimated the reality of recycling
Because we hadn't had a long break before , I never imagined that it would happen after a break as long as that
So essentially,  I was doing well, healing, preparing for life without her and learning all the skills necessary for that
But then she caught me unawares,  I should have ignored the text asking to meet, I look back and think, what the hell, after all that work and progress, one text and I was back
So I suppose this time around, I'm just so conscious that I am right now very vulnerable to her advances and yes, I know I have to start taking major steps towards fully accepting that I cannot allow her to have any influence over me or how I think
A big part of my problem right now is that I live alone and spend quite a lot of time on my own, yes I have friends and family but essentially I am alone 90% of the time evenings and weekends
But I'm trying to fill that time and am conscious that I must find ways to avoid spending so much time alone
But once again, thankyou babyducks

[babyducks]

But then she caught me unawares,  I should have ignored the text asking to meet, I look back and think, what the hell, after all that work and progress, one text and I was back

what I am hearing you tell me is that you are pretty cognitively fused with the idea that she is completely in charge of your experience in the relationship.  that she is in charge of how this goes.     I'm suggesting that maybe this isn't true.      She isn't evil.   or magic.    of that powerful.

can I ask what may be a tough question?    every bone in your body is resisting letting go of the idea of her.     do you think that keeps you in this vulnerable space?

[Andy1963]

Yes I believe that my inability to totally let go is giving her total control
I just cannot figure out how to change that thinking
Even though  I know I need to
Its a bizarre mental head melt

[babyducks]

What is it exactly that you can't let go of?

[Andy1963]

The belief that she was truly the one, and that she loves me, despite all evidence to the contrary
It makes no rational sense, but I am still in love with her, or at least in love with a version of her
But that person doesn't exist, I know that
Thats why non of this makes any sense to me
I know the truth, yet I'm in denial
I constantly remind myself of the horrible things she said and did to me
She is actually not a nice person
When I caught her cheating that last time
I swear she actually smirked at me as I walked off
Absolutely no remorse whatsoever
So I actually don't know what I'm hanging on to?

[babyducks]

Feelings don't make logical sense.   Feelings aren't like a calculation where 2 and  2 equals 4. 

I vividly remember how loved and cherished my Ex made me feel in the beginning of our relationship.   It was the most exhilarating feeling I have ever experienced.    I was walking on air.

Coming to terms and accepting that those early days were just another symptom of BPD was a crushing disappointment.

The alternative was to live with in an illusion.   

Which is not to say I didn't try.    But in the end the relationship was not sustainable.

From what I hear you describing your relationship isn't even available to you.    She's moved on correct?

We invest a lot into our relationships.   I thought this was going to be the love that saved me.    In the end I could let go gracefully or I could watch the whole thing destruct.   Letting go gracefully was less painful for me.

[AdRock]

I feel for you Andy.  I am over two weeks into almost no contact (sent her a picture on IG that she reacted to but she ignores my posts and I have started to do the same).  It is really not easy and, my own situation, I have now idea what is going to actually happen.  A handful of people who know our history have told me it is a matter of time before she reaches out.  Naturally, nothing would give me greater joy but I have to treat it like it is over and focus on myself.  One plus side of mine, she is a good person and she never has actually painted me black.  She will split from me hard but she has never demonized me.  And she tries to better herself so the least I can do for myself is to the same for me.  That may not be of much help to you and trust me I have been in an incredibly dark place the past few weeks.  I also have a network but am alone more often than I would like to be these days.  Distract yourself as much as you can and stay productive in conjunction with that.

[Andy1963]

Yes babyducks she has moved on, as she did 2 years ago for 5 months then came back saying she missed me and it had all been a big mistake
The guy she is with lives in a different country,  hes in the middle of a divorce,  she met him on a plane,  and her looking as she does caught his eye
Because we were off and on so much she latched on to him
She probably only sees him once per month
Its madness
So I expect at some point she will try to recycle me
And despite all the damage that will cause, right now, I would go back
Crazy I know
So I need to move my head away from that to avoid it

[babyducks]

Because we were off and on so much she latched on to him

how do you feel about this Andy?   what are your values and boundaries around her having multiple partners?     when she did this last time what consequences did she face for her behavior?     did you express a boundary about what you will and won't accept in terms of her coming and going?  do you think this is acceptable?

So I expect at some point she will try to recycle me
And despite all the damage that will cause, right now, I would go back

she might try to recycle you.    after all it's worked out for her in the past.   she's gotten what she wanted using these same behaviors before. 

the old saying is 'if you keep doing, what you have always done...you are going to get,... what you have always gotten'.

if she send you a message that says 'oh I made a mistake, I want to come back' what would you say or do?    what would be different this time to keep the both of you from repeating the same cycle again.   I'll be blunt.   nothing is going to change unless you change.   

even if she does reach out, a recycle isn't inevitable.    it's up to you.    like I said upstream,..we need to be 100% responsible for our 50% of the relationship we find ourselves in.    what do you want?      no one is going to judge you here.    it's okay to want to go back.  it's okay to want to get out.    it's okay to be undecided.

if you want to go back I would suggest you consider posting on another board.   and really learn the skills necessary to be in this type of relationship.    commit yourself to being the emotional leader.   learn to effectively introduce boundaries and the communication tools.    build your resilience and self esteem so you are not damaged by the emotional swings.

if you really want to get out, then I would suggest you switch the focus from her, to you.    really dig deep into what keeps you stuck in this spot, why do you tolerate this behavior.    figure out why this was acceptable for so long.  take responsibility for your own happiness.

it's okay to be undecided.  it is not so okay to be undecided for a long time.    remaining in limbo waiting for someone else to make a decision for you will probably lead you to being back here in 2 years time after a 5 month break sharing the same story.

Crazy I know
So I need to move my head away from that to avoid it

yes.   these are crazy making relationships.   we choose mentally ill people to become involved with.    crazy is part of what happens.    expecting rational behavior is not reasonable.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you need to move your head away from that to avoid it?    I'm not sure what it is you want to avoid.    if it is the crazy you want to avoid, I have to be honest and say you can't.   it's very much part of how you two are together.    its not going to go away.     I would say that basically your choices boil down to two - walk away from the crazy and let it go.    or find ways to adapt to the crazy, accept that it is what it is,  and learn how to function with it, without being damaged by it.    that means you would have to change.   you.   not her.   that would be a tough road to go.     what you describe is a relationship that is pretty badly damaged.    and may not be salvageable in any real way.

still I would say the decision is up to you.   not to her.   this is on you.   what happens in your life is yours to decide.

'ducks

[Andy1963]

I know exactly what you are saying ducks
The time before when we split for 5 months came after weeks and weeks of me setting boundaries and trying to get her to take responsibility for her actions and behaviours. I started to not allow many things that previously I had just tolerated. This led to many episodes of her splitting and getting angry with me
' you're not my Andrew anymore ' she would say constantly
I said, I'm still the same person you met, but I'm not accepting your behaviour or actions any more, you have to recognise these things and work to change
She often said during the first 2 years that we only stayed together because I was so patient and accepting,  ' you know how to handle me' she would often say
But then I became mentally and emotionally exhausted so needed to set boundaries as I knew that things couldn't go on like that, I was becoming a basket case
This triggered a major splitting for her and, because she had already identified a new source, she ended us
3 weeks later she was engaged to her new source
Thats when I came on this board and for months worked on learning everything I could to try to understand what had happened
But then, just as I was starting to heal, ping , she was back and we started over
So I truly understand now that doing the same again would be a recipe for disaster
I cannot put myself through that, why would I, just to end up back here in this world of pain?
So essentially I need to train my brain to accept that she can never again be in my life
I need to learn much more self respect and love
I really am trying hard

[Goosey]

Honestly the short term memory goes both ways. I wash over the abuse and spend evenings like this missing the simple touch.
     My ex would still reach out I am sure. Because the only thing I could provide was money in the end. And now she has plenty so I don’t hear from her now.
   So it’s my hurt and issue is me. I realize that. Comes a time when we can cry and a then cry and realize  we are being  human but wasting our time doing this pain. But we will for who knows how long. It’s damaging though. No doubt.

[Andy1963]

Update
After a period of silence she has reached out to me
Asking for help with job application,  now her IT skills are limited , but she has other people she could ask, not least her current person
So reluctantly,  I met her
What followed was 90 mins of severe splitting and some really bizarre behaviour
She indicated,  subtly,  that cracks are beginning in her current setup
Signs of devaluation starting to show
Telling me she will always love me in one breath, and in the next getting angry that I had confronted her that day with him
Then, for the first time, an acknowledgement that what she had done was wrong and she was sorry to hurt me like that
The level of splitting during those 90 mins are actually quite concerning
I have thought for some time that she was becoming more and more unwell, well this confirms that
I left her thinking that she is heading for a complete meltdown
I'm spending time working on me, which I hope will protect me against the possibility of any re cycling  as I fear this is the start of that process
It actually helped me meeting her as it was a stark reminder of just how unwell she is

[babyducks]

came after weeks and weeks of me setting boundaries and trying to get her to take responsibility for her actions and behaviours.

Boundaries are not meant to change another person's behavior or actions.    Boundaries are made to change our behavior and actions.

Boundaries protect us.  Boundaries take care of us.   If my boundary is I won't be cursed at, then my action is to get up and leave when it starts.   She can still be cursing all she wants but I am not going to be there to be impacted by it.

[babyducks]

What followed was 90 mins of severe splitting and some really bizarre behaviour



The level of splitting during those 90 mins are actually quite concerning

Why did you stay for 90 minutes?   What did you get out of that?

[Andy1963]

I stayed because I was composing her CV
But in between there was conversation
It was actually quite therapeutic for me
With my involvement on here and all the information I've been cramming about BPD it was so in evidence
It reconfirmed everything I already knew and has really helped me accept that she is beyond help and impossible to be in a relationship with
There were glimpses if the person I fell in love with, but only glimpses
She is very unwell
It breaks my heart to see such a beautiful girl being that way
She could have been anything...

[babyducks]

Asking for help with job application,  now her IT skills are limited , but she has other people she could ask, not least her current person

I stayed because I was composing her CV

most of us are nice guys and nice gals.   we are nice people to our own expense.    over and over again.     we just have to ~help~.

but let's look at this help we provide.    are we truly helping or are we rescuing?   and is one okay and the other not so much?

we tend to get our feelings of self-esteem through helping, fixing, care taking.   we define our self-worth by how successful we are at taking care of someone else.   often that is something we absorbed as children.    and in the hyper intense world of BPD we try harder and harder to care take.

you understand that she has other choices about getting help for this task.   probably quite a few choices if we stop and list them out.    you are reluctant but override your own instinct and go ~help~ her anyhow.    the conversation goes off the rails but rather than say 'this doesn't feel productive to me, I am going to cut this short and go'.   you stay because you were composing her CV.   You are composing.    not helping her anymore but doing the work yourself?

we keep putting ourselves in these situations because we are getting something out of them.   

 for me, for a while, it was proving I was not the worst person.     it was a contest,   who was the better person,  who was the worst person, who was right, who was wrong, who was behaving poorly, who was acting healthy.    the only way to win that contest is not to play it.

being in these relationships meets a need we have.    the trick is to find ways to meet that need in a healthy way.    if we are hardwired to need to help, we need to be mindful of how to help in an appropriate healthy way.   ways that don't injure us and don't enable the bad behavior of someone else.

'ducks

[Andy1963]

I really am struggling 'ducks'
I cannot seem to resist her and I know it has disaster written all over it
She has asked to see me again and go for drinks etc, yet she's still with this other guy, shes sending me pictures of herself knowing how stunning she is and knowing how attracted I am to her
Its like she has me under a spell
My brain is going to explode,  really really in a bad place

[Go3737]

She is with another man.
He chose him over you.
Own that.
Walk away. It's not your fault.

[babyducks]

I wouldn't say you are under a spell Andy.   I would perhaps suggest that you are emotionally dependent and enmeshed with her.    That's an entirely different thing.

You absolutely have the strength and the fortitude to not respond to her.   You can  free yourself from this dependency.

Its not her sending you pictures that is the problem.    the problem is your reaction to them.

Who is in charge of your reaction?

You are.

People have suggested that you block her.    and you haven't yet been able to tolerate that idea.     

Why have people said to block her?   because that will force some emotional and physical distance between you.     its all about becoming less enmeshed and becoming more a separate entity.

do things that will create that distance between you and her.   turn off your phone.   for an hour.    mute your ringer.    don't look at her messages immediately.    change her name in your contact list to 'do not respond'.  go do something else.    play basketball.    go for a hike.    visit friends you haven't seen in a long time and talk about what is going on in their life.    seek activities, ideas and people that resonate with you, that do not involve her.

there are ways to fight emotional dependency.   

nothing good is going to come from doing the same things that lead you here.

 what can you do today that is good for Andy1963?

[Andy1963]

Thankyou ducks much appreciated
Yes I'm very conscious of my need to connect with her,  truth is we had an unbelievable connection,  but I'm so aware that it was real for me but not necessarily for her
She said some things during our chat that suggested  she realised what we had
She told me that she loved me and missed us
But her illness is very pronounced,  so much more than I ever realised, I do believe she loves me but she can never be what I need her to be
I'm stepping away from her and will try to heal, even though it completely breaks my heart

[Couscous]

Here are some options for a few different 12 Step meetings you can begin attending immediately either in person locally, or online via Zoom while you wait to get into therapy, and something to continue doing:

https://codauk.org/
https://slaafws.org/meetings/
https://adultchildren.org/

[babyducks]

I am really going to encourage you to follow some of the links that Couscous thoughtfully provided.   They might not be the 100% perfect thing right now but they very well maybe a good first step on your journey to healing.

Healing takes work.    active and sometimes difficult work.    No one here will tell you it's easy to let go of our past partners.   it's not.    I have vivid memories of taking long hikes where I would struggle to turn my thoughts away from the ruminations.    to replace obsessive thoughts of her with a more positive and relaxing thoughts.    it took time but I did it.   You can too.     

I am going to share another link with you.

https://www.choosingtherapy.com/narcissistic-abuse-syndrome/

It's a long article but I sincerely hope you will take the time to read all of it.   I shared it for this reason.   While the article is about narcissistic abuse, the link between BPD and NPD is very close.    In fact, so close they are often spoken of together.    Both are psychologically abusive relationships.   Inside the article are quite a few links to positive actions you can begin to start moving you away from what you are feeling.   

This is from the article:

Others’ needs and feelings are of little importance to them, unless they can be manipulated to get what they want. For the BPD/NPD partner, relationships are a means to an end, to obtain what they believe they deserve – in terms of status, admiration, authority, control and power.

People who present on the BPD/NPD end of the spectrum have insatiable needs for admiration, attention, affection, status, power, and control.   As is often said, we are a source of supply.    Because their needs are so intense, there can never be enough supply.

The amount of emotional trauma we go through in these relationships can overwhelm our brain's ability to process it.  What happens, in short, is that the brain is so overtaxed by the stress of the trauma, that it is not able to record the traumatic event(s) as having a beginning, middle, and—most importantly—an end.

Instead the brain records the trauma as having a beginning and middle – but no “end” – so we re-live it over and over again.   either in memory or by actually playing out the same roles and events, even while we understand that the outcomes will be the same.   

In this link about the stages of healing - what stage would you put yourself at?

https://www.choosingtherapy.com/stages-of-healing-after-narcissistic-abuse/

Again - disregard the word narcissistic and look at it through the lens of your relationship.

I am looking for ways that this website can help you out of the cognitive dissonance and towards acceptance.

what do you say?

[Andy1963]

Thankyou so much ducks
I really do want to heal and move away from this and I will read this article
I recognise the similarities between BPD and Narcissism
She displays all if the traits and is actually much more unwell now than when we first met
I have just received a message her asking to see me today, I feel like my head will explode
I know her other person was with her this weekend but he is flying home today so essentially she is wanting to meet me as soon as he leaves
Its completely crazy
We were in a relationship right up until she met him  i was dumped,  ignored for months and now all of a sudden she wants to see me again
As much as I understand BPD and recycling it still doesn't make any sense to me
Why not just focus on him?
When she sent the message she said where to meet but said don't reply
So clearly he has no idea
They are truly very mentally ill people

[babyducks]

I have just received a message her asking to see me today, I feel like my head will explode

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the physical symptom you are describing -  your head exploding.   is a physical manifestation of the abuse, trauma and interpersonal violence you have experienced.    it's not an accident that you feel the way you do.  it's also not a sign of weakness.

Why not just focus on him?

because it's not about him.    any more than it was about you.   it's about accumulating as much ~~stuff~~ as she possible can.    How much love and attention can she grab, get, steal, coax or manipulate.     perhaps it will help to think of it this way,   she gets her emotional high from relationship drama and she is always always always in search of the next 'high'.     it really doesn't matter to her if it is with you.  or with him.   or someone else she hasn't met yet.   she wants those endorphins to flow,  the feeling of intoxicating infatuation, the safety of being 'in love'.    like an addict,  she doesn't care how she gets it.

the feelings are what she craves, and she will use anyone to get that feeling.  very much like an addict.

[Andy1963]

I met her
She told me she loves me and apologised for hurting me, and that she never wants to hurt me ever again
She has asked that we communicate but there's no reconciliation
I got a real sense that she recognises how severe her illness is and that in some way is trying to protect me from it, she apologised so many times
I didnt mention therapy , maybe I should have, but its clear she is getting more and more unwell
She said she wished I could meet someone lovely, and forget all about her
It was so strange and completely unexpected
It was actually quite cathartic

[Andy1963]

Ok, I'm now seriously concerned for her
She called me several times last night saying she is worried that I will contact her new person and tell him we met
I told her repeatedly I have no intention of doing that
She started to cry and get very upset, saying she wants to meet me again to discuss this
Then she hung up on me mid conversation sobbing very badly
I have been saying for some time that she is getting more and more unwell
I know I need to walk away, but this is someone I care deeply for, how can I just walk away when she is so terribly ill
Just no idea what to do

[babyducks]

I'm really not sure what else I could say that might be helpful to you Andy.
How did you think this meetup was going to go?   were you really expecting it to be drama free?    especially since the last time she was also pretty dysregulated?

I guess I would suggest that if you are determined to have some type of relationship with her that you move to the bettering board and work with those members.     perhaps with coaching there you can find ways to interact that is less damaging to both of you.

[Couscous]

How Do I Even Know If I Am Codependent?

What follows is a list of characteristics that codependents often exhibit. You may be codependent if three or more of these fit your personality.

You feel responsible for other people’s feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, and well-being.

It is easier for you to feel and express anger about injustices done to others than about injustices done to you.

You feel best and most comfortable when you are giving to others.

You feel insecure and guilty when someone gives to you.

You feel compelled to help people solve their problems.

You lose interest in your own life when you are involved with someone.

You are often unable to stop talking, thinking and worrying about other people and their problems.

You stay in relationships that don’t work and tolerate abuse in order to keep people loving you.

You can leave bad relationships only to form new ones that turn out just as bad.

You feel empty, bored and worthless if you don’t have someone else to take care of, a problem to solve, or a crisis to deal with.

You often have trouble identifying what you are feeling.

You often get upset when someone refuses your help.

[Andy1963]

I have no doubt that I'm codependant
I put every ounce of me into the relationship and got so little back
I feel a bucket of salt has been poured on my would
I'm hurting badly as she has split again and completely devalued me again
I actually feel like I'm going to combust

[Andy1963]

But I've nobody to blame but myself
I should have stayed away and ignored her messages

[Couscous]

Being responsible for something isn’t the same thing as being to blame. Mistakes are always opportunities for growth. Self-judgement isn’t helpful and personally I have noticed that it’s easier for me to shame judge myself than it is to endure feelings of heartbreak and loss, as well as feelings of powerlessness over another person’s unloving behavior.

Checking out some Codependents Anonymous meetings is an option you might like to explore. You could also take steps to ensure that she is unable to contact you again, by blocking her phone number, etc. Good luck!

[Andy1963]

Taken a few days off here to try to sort my head
Bottom line is this, she is in a state of chaos right now
I've known her 5 years and she is much more unwell than she ever has been before
She devalued me very badly on Monday, screaming at me and saying all sorts of horrible things
Then next day reached out, almost as if nothing has happened asking for me to help her
She realises she is ill
Her current person will be off the scene soon I'm certain, she's already started that process
But regardless,  I have agreed to stay in her life as a friend,  I know its going to be tricky, i do not and will not initiate communication but I will respond
I have no idea what the future holds,  I am continuing my efforts to heal, even though that sounds strange with her still being in the arena
But I couldn't live with myself if she did something silly, and there's a high probability that could happen
I so appreciate this site and the guidance so far
I still intend to work on getting through this

[Turkish]

Andy1963,

If you're choosing to stay in her life, I would post on the Bettering Board and look at the lessons there. Top level articles can be found at the top of the site under the Tips pull down menu.

Best of luck.