Age recommendation fight

[15years]

My wife is quite suddenly very engaged in following age restrictions for the kids. It's of emotional importance to her I'm sure for multiple reasons. It can't be solely for the good of the kids as her arguing about this with me in front of the kids very much wasn't suited for their age.

I'm quite fine with strictly following age recommendations at this point, there are lots to offer for the kids at the recommended age level. Problem now is what to do when, for example, S6 receives a gift that says 7 or 8 +. Or another example, if he's at a friend's house and they watch a 7+ Netflix series because the parents there is not too strict.


The emotional connection to age limits for her could be something from childhood, that they didn't protect her from things, maybe she pushed boundaries and they gave in.

Another emotional connection is that my parents are not that strict, I played GTA from when I was maybe 12. And then they didn't take action to prevent me from accessing porn at age 14 forward. And at age 15 I was allowed to sleep at my ex girlfriends house (in another room was the instructions). She is triggered by this as she would have wanted me to be a virgin.

Another theory is that she is fearful for some more adult parts of being a child, like sexuality, being a big boy or big girl, loss of innocence maybe.


My children has been on a sleep over at my parents house. My dad and S6 built technic lego set together and it was for 8+. S6 did most on his own with my dad supervising, he's really talented in that area. This triggered my wife very much. At the same time my brother had built lego sets from when we where young and wanted to hand over a red sportscar also technic lego probably like 11+ but already built. He wanted to show it to my son and was intrigued to what his reaction would be, and of course S6 absolutely loved it. I took it home as it was mine. All this was too much for W so she screamed at me in the car in front if the kids. I didn't validate her, I was too irritated at her to do something like that. S6 also got to take home that 8+ lego set at the same time.

It might be that technic lego symbolizes something evil for my wife. It also might just have been too much for her to handle and she felt powerless when my brother handed that advanced lego construction over to S6.

Should I have prevented this in any way or was this simply bound to happen after a calm period of 1,5 months? Or both?

Of course S6 was very happy with the two lego constructions but now has to be aware that he shouldn't be having them.

My W is afraid that our children will grow up to be brats like me and she won't allow it to happen. This feels like a set up for many fights for years to come.

[Couper]

Where Lego sets are concerned, this sounds like an exercise of "bring me another rock".  It's a fabricated scenario to cause you to "fight for her" or put you in competition with others so that you have to prove yourself.  The suggested age on a Lego box has nothing to do with anything related to morality.  It's just a skill level suggestion.  Thank goodness my uBPDw never thought of concocting this one.  My son would be heartbroken.  

Maybe it's not the answer the more learned people here will give you, but if I were in your shoes, I'd tell her that it's her hill to die on and that I'm not enforcing some arbitrary age restriction on a toy that has no effect on health or safety.

[Notwendy]

Clearly the two of you have been together longer than the age where you had an encounter with someone at age 15. It's far more relevant that you two are together now as adults, yet she's fixated on you at 15.

It's more likely she, herself, is emotionally fixated at herself at 15 and if she herself was inexperienced at 15, she'd possibly feel shocked to know someone she liked was not.

So, if I was 15, and found out my boyfriend was sleeping with someone - I'd be shocked and horrified. But at my current age, what my husband did  or didn't do with someone at age 15 is completely irrelevant.

For someone with BPD though, feelings feel like facts. So yes, if I was emotionally stuck at 15, perhaps I'd react like a 15 year old would.

Sometimes, the emotional age we are stuck at is the time of some kind of emotional trauma at that age.

Your wife's emotional reaction to "age appropriate" is not rational. Of course, something like PG 13 is not appropriate for your boys but the toy age is an approximation of skill level or safety like no small parts for young children.  Doing an advanced Lego toy alone would be frustrating for them, but when an older child or adult helped, the experience seemed to be something they enjoyed. Your wife's reaction might be based on her own fear and a past trauma.

[Manic Miner]

Very good point NotWendy. Her age related concerns on toys are nothing but her own fear.

Can we somehow decipher at which age they have been stuck emotionally based on their actions? I'm so curious to know.

[Turkish]

My son was doing 10+ Lego sets in kindergarten. He'd lay out the pieces on the floor and follow the directions and construct until he was finished; whereas, at that age, I'd likely burn the directions and construct "whatever." He's ASD1, not surprising. Heck, as an adult I'd still burn the directions!

Kudos to you and your family for encouraging him to reach beyond arbitrary limits. Punch up, not down. Encourage talent and a growth mindset.

For every reaction, there's an underlying emotion. I'm sympathetic to going beyond age appropriate media, but there's an underlying emotion that triggers your wife. Have you been able to ask her to drill down what causes her anxiety, or maybe better to say, what worries her about your son doing Lego sets outside of the suggested age group?

Speaking of "growth mindset," this is a thing in the current educational system, at least here in the USA. Maybe a good start to a conversation would be about GM. If you're in the USA in the public school system, it's likely that this concept is already being taught. For pwBPD, sometimes ideas are better received from those not so closely connected emotionally.

[15years]

Thank you all for your replies.


I'm glad I posted this yesterday before me and W discussed this issue and other related things regarding raising children and setting boundaries to them. Also talked about social interaction and behavior, which seems to be a big deal for W. She wasn't raging so I listened but stated my opinions about things (arguing?) and at the end I had a hard time convincing myself even that my opinions was more than just childish thoughts and feelings. I guess some of you know what that feels like. However she seemed to be satisfied with the conversation and praised both of us for solving conflicts more effectively than we used to - don't know if that's true or not...


She softened up a bit about the lego age restrictions and even said that "maybe" it's not set in stone. She thinks that "it starts with lego, then it's some advanced electronical appliance, and suddenly they'll buy a violent video game". However, my parents didn't buy me inappropriate gifts when I was young so my wife's fear is not based on any real threat. She's somehow very offended by the culture in my extended family, although I have proved to her that I'm open to raising children in a more boundary-setting manner than my own childhood. Also she thinks that children should be allowed to be the age they're in and not be pushed to perform above their level. I kind of understand that point of view, but not with lego.


I knew that my dad were going to build the lego set with my son but I thought that maybe it's 7+ and that it will slip under W's emotional radar so I didn't stop them. Maybe it would have passed but then it became too much when I accepted to bring home my old lego sports car without consulting her. In a more normal relationship this could have been discussed more, but I feel that I'm forced to petty tactics like this to have my way sometimes. Sneaking in advanced lego works because she wouldn't want to disappoint my son to the point of confiscating his toys. Talking about it beforehand... Maybe it would have worked but then it's me asking permission. It doesn't make me feel too proud to "hope for the best" either though. Asking permission doesn't either. Telling her what will happen and that she won't be able to stop it doesn't feel good either.


I'm sure there will be more similar problems many times in the coming years. She has already told me she won't allow our boys to have girlfriends before the age of 18. She won't support it and figures the boys will respect that. At least she won't let them bring any girls home.


About the reaction to the lego issue, at first she screamed at me in the car (5 minute ride), called me names and said that my family are idiots. I told her to not fight in front of the kids which of course triggered her more. When we arrived home she kicked me and hit me while holding S2. After a few minutes of her ranting I said/shouted in front of S6 that I didn't want to listen to her babbling on about this after what she just did and that we'll talk later.

Afew days ago she promised S6 that we would not fight like this anymore. When the kids had gone to sleep she expressed regret and explained how she feels when she gets this angry, but I got the sense that she wanted to put half of the blame on me. This morning she apologized to S6 for the violence and stupid comments about me and my family and AGAIN promised him it won't happen again. I was quiet so she told me "aren't you going to say anything?", I told her I will, so I told him "I'm sorry we fought in front of you". Don't know if she thinks that is enough really, she might be mad about it later.


Sorry long post, feel free to comment about anything you find interesting. Once again thankful to have this place to turn to.

[Manic Miner]

I'm sure there will be more similar problems many times in the coming years. She has already told me she won't allow our boys to have girlfriends before the age of 18. She won't support it and figures the boys will respect that. At least she won't let them bring any girls home.

This could be a red flag in my opinion. I'm not familiar whether your wife sticks to her ideals and promises or just says first thing (fears) that come to mind. Mine doesn't stick to anything - my W claims all kind of trivialities, should's and could's and literally she doesn't remember half of that the next day - if I baited on that, I'm screwed.

Anyway, since she's a woman that claims to shut your boys GFless until 18, there's a potential for Oedipus complex. Make sure your boys get proper education by you. Try your best to make them responsible and sane males, whatever your W claims or says. When the time comes, talk to them privately about it, you don't need to argue with your W.

Again, this could mean nothing - she is just in this age-related thing and just utters whatever fears she has on her mind. Maybe next year or in 2-5-10 years it will all change as they grow up. But keep this in mind.

About the reaction to the lego issue, at first she screamed at me in the car (5 minute ride), called me names and said that my family are idiots. I told her to not fight in front of the kids which of course triggered her more. When we arrived home she kicked me and hit me while holding S2. After a few minutes of her ranting I said/shouted in front of S6 that I didn't want to listen to her babbling on about this after what she just did and that we'll talk later.

Afew days ago she promised S6 that we would not fight like this anymore. When the kids had gone to sleep she expressed regret and explained how she feels when she gets this angry, but I got the sense that she wanted to put half of the blame on me. This morning she apologized to S6 for the violence and stupid comments about me and my family and AGAIN promised him it won't happen again. I was quiet so she told me "aren't you going to say anything?", I told her I will, so I told him "I'm sorry we fought in front of you". Don't know if she thinks that is enough really, she might be mad about it later.

Typical response of BPD people. Grownups in emotional state of a child. Sadly, it will happen again. I don't know what else to say - I struggle with the very thing you described. Although my W doesn't even recognize her fault anywhere - there's always someone, something to blame. We must either accept this or end it for good. :-/

[Notwendy]

One thing about conflict is that when one is in the middle of it, the focus is on the issue at hand, and a solution to stop the distress. It might help to look at common themes of these conflicts, because as you have seen, solving one of them is temporary.

I still think a lot of conflict comes down to what you did at age 15. It does seem that your parents were permissive of some activities that your wife does not approve of.  That doesn't mean YOU did anything wrong. You did what a 15 year old would probably do in the event they were allowed to sleep in the same room with a girlfriend. When I was 15, I didn't know of any parents who would have allowed sleeping in the same room with a boyfriend or girlfriend, but I am pretty sure if it was allowed, a lot more of us would have been doing the same thing you were. I have also read where in some countries or cultures, this is more accepted. Different cultures have different attitudes towards sex. In some cultures ( and it could be a family or religious culture as well ) it's a normal and healthy thing. In others, it's shameful and dirty.

In a way, you and your wife share this same sticking point. For some reason, she's upset because you had a sexual experience with someone else at age 15. And on your part, you seem to feel shame about that, either from how your wife feels or how you felt about it. Your wife is able to elicit this shame in you, but she would not be able to do that if you could somehow, let go of this shame, and reframe this, because it's not helping you. You can't change the past and it does no good for your wife to keep referencing this because when you feel shame and remorse for it, somehow it helps her feelings too.

Logically, what you did at age 15 has no importance in the present. You are an adult now. 15 year olds do not make mature decisions. That is why they don't have the legal authority to do that. I don't think any of us can look back at all we did at 15 and say - yes, that was a wise decision for all of it. We might look back and think "yeah, that was stupid" but carrying shame years later serves no purpose. You might also look back and say "that was a good learning experience for me". You need to find some way to forgive "15 year old you" first. Maybe your wife can't do that, but if you can't do that, then you are also a part of the bringing up the past. Somehow this is working for both of you. Maybe you are hoping if you JADE enough, or do the right thing, your wife will forgive you, but looking to her for forgiveness is looking in the wrong place. You need to forgive yourself.

In the TV series "Outlander" there's an interesting dialogue about this. One male character is sexually violated and later, a younger male one is. The younger one is feeling a lot of emotions about it and is speaking to the older one. He asks- how can something feel so horrible and also pleasurable at the same time? The reply from the older one was " your brain has a conscience, your ---- does not" meaning as upset and wrong as he felt it was, his body responded the way it is wired to do and he needs to not blame himself for that.

Feelings aren't rational. It doesn't make sense to have jealousy for a relationship you had before you became involved with your wife. But if your wife has emotional trauma, particularly sexual trauma, and shame involved at around that age, somehow it's got her replaying this as well for her.

Her statement "not letting the boys date until 18" is to try to somehow not have them do what either you did, or she did. But you know that is an unreasonable rule for a teen age boy. However, the boys are small now and won't be wanting to date for a long time. It's not worth arguing about that. A concern is how she is going to respond to their puberty since this idea seems to be an emotional trigger for her and how this will impact their feelings about sexuality.

Manic Miner - you asked about the age of getting stuck and I don't think it's uniform. A person might be mature in other areas but emotionally stuck with the emotions surrounding an emotional trauma. I think a therapist is better able to figure such things out. It also doesn't have to be with just BPD. The concept of "inner child work" can apply to other situations too.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Maybe I am overreaching, but it seems to me like your children growing up might be what is triggering her, and she is using whatever "legit tools" she has to keep the illusion of control over them.

My four years old loves lego, puzzles. If I kept her doing the ones for four years old, she'd be bored out of her mind. She is simply more advanced in puzzles, and my role as a parent is to nourrish her, feed her passion, give her challenges she enjoys so she can keep becoming who she is at her core.

I think this is just a way for your wife to keep a hold on what they do and not do, on what they become... Because children becoming teenagers is : *drum roll* Abandonment !

Children don't come from, they come through. Our role is to help them shape themselves, following their lead and making sure they can be respectful and mindful of others.

Your role, in my opinion, is what you seem to be already doing, mainly to not validate the invalid and to stand for them against a mother that is being controlling right now, and who is keeping them from doing things they enjoy... Legos are amazing.  

And with a rule such as : no girlfriend before 18, I can guarantee you they will have one and simply not tell her. In these days and ages? Open communication is key. Being overcontrolling with children has a way to come back at us later on, in ways we don't like.

[15years]

Sry don't have time to answer you all.

An urgent update instead...

It's definitely about the thing from when I was 15. Two entire days of conversation about that, expectations and demands on me expressing my feelings the exact way she wants me to feel.

Her theory: I am traumatized by the fact that she wasn't my first and only relationship especially sexual but also more innocent. She is nervous but tells MY story of my feelings and wants me to confirm: "yep I felt/feel like that"... what is this even called? Emotional blackmail, defining someone else?

The problem is, I can't say yes nor no. Yes - will lead to further expectations of confirming this, and it's not nearly true. No - will kill her emotionally or kill me emotionally from the repercussions. To be honest I'm even getting a bit scarred for my life here because of the level of delusion. She's altering between anger/hate and sweetness/gullibleness.in trying to squeeze an answer out of me. Still I feel that tiring her out by not giving a definitive answer is my safest bet. But she'll be back, this is the one strongest emotional issue she will never let go of, the issue that's been with us from the start.


So she actually needs me to have the same values as she, in a nightmarish way. It's either that or death, at least that's how it feels. The fear for my life is real but it feels a bit over the top, but still, just having that small fear is frightening. And what if I'm being naive...

If I tell her, I feel like you, she'll be romantically high and expect me to keep that up tomorrow by further bonding with her about our shared emotions.


Sorry for this hastened post, I'm in a hurry. Back to work on monday thank God

[GaGrl]

She is attempting to maneuver you into a BPD black/white, yes/no situation, and you cannot answer either yes or no to what she has presented -- because you own your own feelings.

Have you ever told her you will not discuss your 15-year-old relationship, ever again? And then stuck to that? 

Another option...

"I have my own feelings about the relevance of how a relationship at 15 years of age affects our marriage now. I would be willing to discuss that together with a marriage counselor."

Would she agree?

[ForeverDad]

This is somewhat similar to the infamous prosecutor's demand (though without the emotional aspect) "Yes or No... Have you stopped beating your wife?"  Either way you're stuck.

My ex used to do that too, she was determined to "fix" me.  Never worked because her list never ended.  An emotionally neutral counselor or trusted confidant is a better approach.

[Couper]

Is there any chance she's lying to you?  Like in the context that all of the things she's trying to hang on you is actually her talking about herself?  The reason I ask is that I have been through something remarkably similar.  I had a bit of experience before we got married.  She knew.  It wasn't a deal breaker.  It was always implied that she was as pure and clean as the wind driven snow, but thinking back on it, that was never stated expressly... 

So, this was yet another issue with which I was clobbered over the head after getting married.  Pointlessly rehashed / settled / then out of the clear blue sky pulled out of her toolbox to clobber me with again whenever she needed a distraction from something serious.  Then just a couple of years ago, I learned that she was in some kind of sexual relationship several years before I came along.  How about that?  Then other things started to make since.  There was a name in my family that goes way back that I would have used if we had a second son.  Whenever this name was mentioned in any context, even if it was the name of a stranger we met, she would fly off the handle about, "I hate that name, I don't want to hear it."  On and on.  A very conventional everyday name that I have never heard elicit such a reaction.  Guess what -- it was the name of her partner!

Before we got married, on occasion her mother would make a big deal about her being a virgin and she would get very uncomfortable.  I just thought it was because that's pretty embarrassing having your mother talk about you to others in that context.  Nope, I think it's because she knew she was letting her mother believe a lie.  She makes such a big deal about virginity herself, yet a few years before I came along she had a cousin that rejected one of her bridesmaids because she was not one and my not-yet-wife wrote her cousin a letter lambasting her for her decision.  Probably because she identified with the bridesmaid.  In fact, sex has always been an uncomfortable and distorted topic for her.  Another little secret she kept until the day we got married.  It has never ever been right.  Lots of lots of rejection.  I find out that after six years of this, she was actually going to see this guy at a funeral she was dreading going to and she made a journal entry that said, "Maybe if I face up and see this guy I won't have to reject Couper anymore" and all the while, she was telling me that my own past was the reason for the endless rejection.  Nice.

Maybe you know outright that this is not the case, but just thought I'd throw that out there.  I spent over a decade of her hating me over this issue when really and truly deep down inside, it was about her hating herself.  She still doesn't know that I know.  Didn't mean to get on a soapbox there, but I wanted to illustrate that until just over two years ago, I thought it was all about me, too.       

[ForeverDad]

Is there any chance she's lying to you?  Like in the context that all of the things she's trying to hang on you is actually her talking about herself?

Sounds like there's projection meant to place you in the hot seat to distract you from her own issues or past.

[Couper]

Sounds like there's projection meant to place you in the hot seat to distract you from her own issues or past.

Yes.  Oodles and oodles of projection on every topic imaginable.  Her parents should have named her Kodak.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Is there any chance she's lying to you?  Like in the context that all of the things she's trying to hang on you is actually her talking about herself?  

This is what I came here to ask and say.

For thirty years, I heard about how my father cheated on my mother, how he hurt her, left her, abandoned her, how he was a player always flirting with other women...

On his side, my father wouldn't speak ill of my mother with me.

Low and behold, thirty years later, when I finally made sense of my mother's illness, my father finally opened up. And I trust him much more than I trust her:

He did cheat on her... But so did she... However, of her own treachery, she never huttered a word... He is the vile one, she is white as snow...

[15years]

Thanks again for your replies.

She is attempting to maneuver you into a BPD black/white, yes/no situation, and you cannot answer either yes or no to what she has presented -- because you own your own feelings.

Have you ever told her you will not discuss your 15-year-old relationship, ever again? And then stuck to that? 

Another option...

"I have my own feelings about the relevance of how a relationship at 15 years of age affects our marriage now. I would be willing to discuss that together with a marriage counselor."

Would she agree?

Actually did both of these last night after writing here. Told her I won't talk more about this and suggested talking about it in therapy. Don't think she took me seriously, she'd say to herself "oh, he's just tired from talking, I'll try again later. But it's abusive of him to not want to talk to me about something so important".

Do I just remain silent when she brings it up or do I tell her every time that I won't discuss it?

This is somewhat similar to the infamous prosecutor's demand (though without the emotional aspect) "Yes or No... Have you stopped beating your wife?"  Either way you're stuck.

My ex used to do that too, she was determined to "fix" me.  Never worked because her list never ended.  An emotionally neutral counselor or trusted confidant is a better approach.

Yes I was thinking this is a no-win situation. I guess I have the right to remain silent? Not much to build a relationship on but neither is discussing this.

This is what I came here to ask and say.

For thirty years, I heard about how my father cheated on my mother, how he hurt her, left her, abandoned her, how he was a player always flirting with other women...

On his side, my father wouldn't speak ill of my mother with me.

Low and behold, thirty years later, when I finally made sense of my mother's illness, my father finally opened up. And I trust him much more than I trust her:

He did cheat on her... But so did she... However, of her own treachery, she never huttered a word... He is the vile one, she is white as snow...

Couper and Riverwolf - I don't think she's lying but definitely projecting. She was 16 yo and decided to sleep with me a few 2-3 months into the relationship, and claims virginity is important to her. To her defense she says she waited for her one true love and knew I was the one. But still a hasty decision for someone who says she has strong values about relationships, she didn't even ask if I was a virgin. Though I feel bad for her because I know I indirectly gave her the impression I was.

[Manic Miner]

Do I just remain silent when she brings it up or do I tell her every time that I won't discuss it?

Yes I was thinking this is a no-win situation. I guess I have the right to remain silent? Not much to build a relationship on but neither is discussing this.

Couper and Riverwolf - I don't think she's lying but definitely projecting. She was 16 yo and decided to sleep with me a few 2-3 months into the relationship, and claims virginity is important to her. To her defense she says she waited for her one true love and knew I was the one. But still a hasty decision for someone who says she has strong values about relationships, she didn't even ask if I was a virgin. Though I feel bad for her because I know I indirectly gave her the impression I was.

How interesting. I also met my current wife when she was 16 and me 20. Big difference then, nothing of importance now.

Over the years she did bring topics like "I sure wasn't your only girl" said in a tone "I wasn't worthy of you", which she believed and her low self-esteem emerged. Up to this day she used to ask or remark about "Is there any other women in your life now?" to which I reply - If there was, can you please explain how? I'm literally 24/7 doing family business, be it my job, hobbies, taking care of our home or our daughter. Do you think I somehow applied quantum physics and dilated space-time to squeeze my affairs somewhere?

However, this was never our prime issue, like you are facing now. Like others told you, I think she's heavily projecting. It's beyond trivial topic though. Why not even tell a lie about it? It was ages ago and literally plays NO effect today, except for her. If you think this could comfort her, telling a lie here isn't manipulation or taking advantage. It's extinguishing a flame that shouldn't exist after all.

[Notwendy]

I agree with the others. I think it's projected shame. If she herself had a sexual experience before you and said she was a virgin, yes, it's not true technically but where shame is concerned, pwBPD, seem to "rewrite" history as a way to cope with that shame, so she may not be perceived to her as a lie.

Whether or not she was a virgin, if being a virgin at marriage is a strong value to her, and she slept with you at 16 a few months into the relationship, she would feel shame about that. The way to "erase" that shame is to rationalize you are her one and only person. Whether or not that is true, the shame is there.

Shame is a difficult emotion for anyone, intolerable for someone with BPD. This issue comes up all the time because of her need to pull you into her emotional coping mechanism as there's a disconnect between her sense of self and what happened. In her sense of self, she was a virgin at marriage and so were you. But she wasn't and neither were you.

With projection, what they say about you is actually what they are saying about themselves. Also, consider that, when boundaries are weak, there's not much division between you and them. She's telling it as your story, but it's her feelings.

Her theory: I am traumatized by the fact that she wasn't my first and only relationship especially sexual but also more innocent. She is nervous but tells MY story of my feelings and wants me to confirm: "yep I felt/feel like that"... what is this even called? Emotional blackmail, defining someone else?

Let's look at it as possibly some other ways:

Her theory: She is traumatized by the fact that you are not her first and only relationship especially sexual but also more innocent.

Or:
She is traumatized by the fact that she wasn't my first and only relationship.

Trauma is a pretty strong reaction. I don't know why it's trauma to her but it seems like it is. She seems emotionally "stuck" at this age and seems to relive it over and over again- and trauma can do that.

Do you have any idea what could have been trauma to her? One thing that comes to mind is that, if she had a sexual encounter before you, it may not have been consensual- was there sexual abuse?

Or it could also be caused by her feeling shame for you not being her first, which is why this issue of you not being her first is a projection of that.

How do you stop this? You can't get into her thinking or feeling, that's on her, but her bringing it up and projecting her shame on to you serves a purpose for her. It helps her to cope with it. This is positive reinforcement. People don't continue a behavior over and over again unless it's reinforced. Your participation reinforces it. You can't control her part in this but you can change your response. You need to validate her feelings, then state your boundary on talking about this. "SET" don't "JADE".

"Honey, I understand it upsets you that I was not a virgin when I met you. Had I known it would upset you this much, I would not have done it, but I didn't know it at the time, and I can't change the past. My marriage to you is much more important than any relationships in the past, and I want to focus on who we are in the present"

Then, you don't discuss it further. If she keeps bringing it up, repeat "My marriage to you is much more important and I want to focus on who we are in the present"

If she gets violent, call 911, get to a safe place.

On another note, I am concerned about your boys at puberty. They should not be made to feel shame about the feelings and biological reactions they will have at that time. I am concerned your wife will be triggered by that and what influence that will have on them.

[Couper]

Couper and Riverwolf - I don't think she's lying but definitely projecting. She was 16 yo and decided to sleep with me a few 2-3 months into the relationship, and claims virginity is important to her. To her defense she says she waited for her one true love and knew I was the one. But still a hasty decision for someone who says she has strong values about relationships, she didn't even ask if I was a virgin. Though I feel bad for her because I know I indirectly gave her the impression I was.

Thank you for the context.  So basically she is blaming you for doing with someone else at 15 what she decided to do with you when she was 16?  In more simplistic terms, I would say that this is the pot calling the kettle black.

[Notwendy]

So basically she is blaming you for doing with someone else at 15 what she decided to do with you when she was 16?

Yes- and talk about splitting. If she was going against her values, then this action contradicts her (weak) self image. So she splits. She remains "virginal" while projecting the shame of her decision.

I am still concerned that when the boys hit puberty, she will do all she can to prevent them from doing what you did ( projection, what she did) because the boys are an extension of her and she needs to be her version of the good girl.

Maybe why the boys doing something that is advanced for their age, even a Lego toy, is a trigger for her.

Back to your original post:

Another theory is that she is fearful for some more adult parts of being a child, like sexuality, being a big boy or big girl, loss of innocence maybe.


I think it's understandable that her sleeping with you at age 16 could have been traumatic for her. I think you have mentioned she's accused you of being hurtful to her sexually. This doesn't mean you were. Even if she consented, 16 is young. If you were her first, this may have been a scary situation for her. She may regret her own loss of innocence, even if it was to you. It also could be possible that while you enjoyed the experience, it was physically painful for her. To be more blunt, you may have gotten more physical pleasure out of it than she did. An inexperienced teen girl may imagine their first time being romantic and pleasurable like the movies. Reality can be different for them.

My W is afraid that our children will grow up to be brats like me and she won't allow it to happen.


Maybe your wife is afraid the boys will either lose their innocence or be the reason another girl loses hers.

Taking this back to the Amber Heard discussion on this board, while JD may not have been abusive to her, Amber, being BPD, experienced it as abuse.

I also met my current wife when she was 16 and me 20. Big difference then, nothing of importance now.


Huge importance then. There is no way I could have handled a relationship with a 20 year old at 16. I'm not blaming you, or her. You were both young and in love. She was part of the decision. But she's used the term traumatic- and perhaps it was to her.

So how do you move forward with this? It makes sense that you feel attacked and like a victim when she comes after you wanting you to admit that you feel the same way she does about your own early sexual experience. Well you don't feel the same way, and you don't want to admit to any wrong doing on your part but a validation of her feelings "yes, I hear how you feel about this. If I knew it would upset you, I would not have done it, but I didn't know that then and I can't change the past"  followed by " Who we are now is much more important to me than anything we did before we met" ( a kind of absolution ) for both of you and then the wish to not discuss it might be a start.

[ForeverDad]

And you have no knowledge who her possible earlier encounters were with, whether it was willing, unwilling, even incestuous.

[kells76]

Actually did both of these last night after writing here. Told her I won't talk more about this and suggested talking about it in therapy. Don't think she took me seriously, she'd say to herself "oh, he's just tired from talking, I'll try again later. But it's abusive of him to not want to talk to me about something so important".

Whatever she thinks of your boundary isn't something you can control. What I can tell you, though, is that if she thinks similarly to your example up there, that isn't valid. You can say, every time, "Babe, clearly this is important to you, so I will absolutely discuss it in therapy with you and a professional."

You're not saying No, and you're not caving on your boundary.

I mean, she's been trying this angle for YEARS, and has ANYTHING you've ever said or done made it better? It's time to change.

Do I just remain silent when she brings it up or do I tell her every time that I won't discuss it?

This is where "the rubber meets the road", as they say, in terms of boundaries. This is it. Consistency will be key. Whatever you decide your values are around discussing this topic, you'll need to be "boringly repetitive" about what you will and won't do and say. Whether it's remaining silent every time, or reminding her of your discussion rules every time, or repeating verbatim "Babe, I see this is important to you, and I will discuss it in therapy with you and a professional." It's going to be hard at first, but the instant you cave in "just once", it's like starting all over again at square one.

...

I see zero benefit coming from trying to talk this out any more with just you and her. Again, like I'm speculating above, I don't see any evidence that anything has actually worked so far, and the things that "seem" like they work (like you losing yourself and just saying "yes babe, my feelings are exactly the same as yours") aren't actually healthy for your marriage and don't actually "work" for more than a moment or day.

[GaGrl]

Agree with others.

She is stuck, and severely so. If nothing you have done or said over a period of YEARS has made any difference, then you are not capable of effecting change -- and I think you know that. It's going to take a professional to help her become "unstuck."

In the meantime, craft what you will say -- there are some good suggestions here -- and prepare yourself to deliver that message. As she attempts to wear you down and engages in an extinction burst...

Repeat your message, ad infinitum nauseum.

Protect yourself and your children. Stay safe.

[ForeverDad]

She is stuck, and severely so. If nothing you have done or said over a period of YEARS has made any difference, then you are not capable of effecting change -- and I think you know that. It's going to take a professional to help her become "unstuck."

IF she will let a professional (therapist with no emotional ties to her) to help her to become "unstuck".  The urge to Deny, Blame and Shift Blame is that overwhelming for pwBPD.

She is an adult.  Whether she will let anyone help her is totally up to her.

[15years]

All this is helpful but it takes practicing.

One problem is she's not always directly talking about the prerelationship issue, she might discuss "true love" and all of a sudden I find myself in the middle of the prerelationship question again. When faced with the direct question, "don't you regret having sexual encounters before me?" it feels like saying "no" if I refuse to answer. And a "no" is not acceptable and could lead to big trouble. Saying yes leads to further ultimatums, but it could be easier to set a boundary then and say, "I've said enough, I regret it but l wont discuss it further." But later that boundary could be crossed in the same mind bending manner. It's really like a battle. They say attack is the best defense. Could that be a tactic here too? Or is exiting the battle the only option maybe. But it feels so odd to simply ignore her. And hard to do when she attacks me from another direction if the first one doesn't work.

This is where I think that simply ending the rs is the only real solution.

[Notwendy]

This is where I think that simply ending the rs is the only real solution.

It might be, but it's your decision whether or not to go that route.

It doesn't make rational sense for your wife to be fixated on that one event but trauma, emotions, aren't rational. Especially trauma because it can be replayed and it's replayed with you. However, trauma can be replayed for the person with anyone. So if she was in another relationship, it might happen with them too.

As Forever Dad says- it's her trauma. Other people can't fix this for her. It depends on if she's willing to go through the process of examining it in therapy. That isn't something pwBPD tend to do. It might be possible, but it's entirely up to her to do that.

It seems as if no answer you give her is acceptable. I think the only boundary you can have is to decide you have had enough of this discussion. You don't refuse to answer. You give her the same one I suggested.

" If I knew it would upset you, I would not have done it, but I didn't know that then and I can't change the past. I prefer to not discuss this further. Who we are today is more important to me"

Repeat as necessary.

[15years]

I guess this is a failure but it was so easy to do it so I did --> She asked me - "have you ever prayed and asked for forgiveness from God for doing x?" - I think I remember that while I was still deep in FOG, I did actually ask God for forgiveness about x. So I told her "yes I have". So she got the idea to ask "Have you ever begged forgiveness for having relationships before me?", and I told her no. So the next day when I was at work, she texted me that it would feel really good if I'd do that - Pray to God for forgiveness for my early sexual relationship and also for ever watching pornography. I told her "Ok" - as in "Ok, I hear you". She was satisfied with that, but next day she asked me -"Have you asked for forgiveness now?" and I told her I had and the case was dropped. As I said, it was so easy to say "yes" and not argue about it further, and it's really up to me if and what I pray about - so it was a minimal effort. I could have "fake prayed" just to make it less of a lie, so a straight lie didn't feel worse than that. Would this fall under the category of "giving in" and reinforcing her need to bring this up? -should I have told her - "I won't ask God for forgiveness about that!" or "What I pray to God about is between me and God."

My T talked about how this is equal to her having a drug addiction. I really think that analogy works so well. Was me saying "Yes I prayed" the same as me giving her a shot? In that case, I think it was a very small one and she'll soon need more.

[Notwendy]

I don't think it was wrong to tell her you have asked for forgiveness. It doesn't mean you did anything wrong. Asking for forgiveness might have been you asking that this issue could not continue to be a problem between the two of you.

The problem is on her part, constantly bringing it up again. When this does come up again, you can reply " I have done that already"

You can't change what she is thinking, but at some point, you can decide you have asked for forgiveness enough times and tell her, it's been done, and there's nothing else to say about it.

[Manic Miner]

Tell her, the god said to you she should be fine from now on, you felt it in your body and clensed you from impurities.