It all happened last week

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hmm.   Never really thought about that.

She has multiple affairs. Her tubes are ties. She cant get pregnant. She probably didnt use protection.
Get yourself tested for STDs.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Hmm.   Never really thought about that.

She has multiple affairs. Her tubes are ties. She cant get pregnant. She probably didnt use protection.
Get yourself tested for STDs.

[PeteWitsend]

CC - go talk to a family law / divorce attorney as well, to understand how to protect yourself and your share of any marital assets if she takes this possible Mania/infidelity too far.

[maxsterling]

Something interesting has come up, she never told anyone about what she was up to..but now is confiding with her best friend.

Her best friend is telling me things (i know that is bad) and her stories do not add up at all.

The biggest thing, is one of the guys she was seeing over 6 months, she told me it was just sex.  But told her friend that she and him were ready to leave their spouses for each other but he backed out.  Looking back, i can see financial things she was doing to prepare for that.  They seemed small at the time but now it all adds up.

To me, that does not seem like the behavior that someone with BPD would exhibit, or am i wrong?  It just seems like someone unhappy who is trying to leave.

Many here have similar stories - this is typical BPD.  AFAIK, my wife has not had an affair on me.  But she has cheated on exes.  It sounds to me her typical MO was to have someone else lined up and that person was a motivation to leave the current r/s.

[GaGrl]

My husband's ex is uBPD/NPD. She began infidelities about 18 months into their marriage and continued until she moved out of their shared home after about 22 years. She did not want to divorce -- she put H into a Parent position and somewhat on a pedestal.

That didn't keep her from giving him an STD and later endangering his military career by her blatant behavior.

I'm not sure how much of the sexual behavior was BPD and how much was NPD. One form of NPD is the use of sex for manipulation.

Any time affairs and infidelities arise with a personality disorder, it seems to me an escalation and needs to be examined.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Ok, will look into getting tested.

We both see our own therapists this week Thursday.  Hopefully time around i can meet with hers (individually) to find out some stuff, and give him some more info.

[ForeverDad]

Stated as a non-professional and not an authority, I believe you can contact and share information with her T, however her T may not be able to respond to you or share with you unless she has granted T her permission.

[Notwendy]

It's also up to the T. BPD mother did not give consent for us to communicate with her providers. There were times I tried to provide information and some were willing to listen to me and others were not.

As BPD mother is now elderly, she did sign consents for some of her providers to speak to me but if I contact them, it's brief and relates to her care. It's not for my own feelings.

Keep in mind that if your discussion requires their time- they are professionals and can not be expected to spend a long time with you without compensation and due to whatever confidentiality situation they have- they can not do this.

Some may refuse to avoid a triangulation. For them to be able to help your wife- they need a working relationship with her. She may feel betrayed if they talk to you.

It can't hurt to ask, but they may or may not wish to or be able to speak to you.

[ConfusedCanuck]

I have already got the ok from both of them.  I will take 15 minutes of one of her 60 minute slots.

[ConfusedCanuck]

So...i had this meeting last week.  Was very interesting.  Found out she had been lying to him about most stuff.  Grr.

The day before the appointment i took her credit and bank cards away.  She had been spending a bit recklessly for a few days and had to be done.

First she met the therapist. then i came in.  Some small talk, then he said he was very happy with her progress.  I was shocked.  I asked if they talked about her spending and me taking away the cards.  They had not.  Which led to a few other conversations about things not being said.  :-(

She seems to have changed since that meeting, almost being like someone with Dementia.  Hard to explain, but she can no longer do simple tasks, and just says bizarre things out of the blue.  Sometimes true, other times there is a tiny bit of truth, but its all mixed up.
IE, she told me, did you know i got your dog an ear tattoo.  Ok...i was there and that was 12 years ago.  She says, i want to get one on my lower back now.  What? a Tramp Stamp? (sorry if i offend).

Or She really enjoyed what we did last night with so and so..But, that thing she is talking about is 5 years ago, and she has the person wrong.

This last week she has been a handful.   I would say 10-20 odd things happening a day.  But then a friend of hers came over and she snapped right out of it.  Ug..so strange.

[ForeverDad]

Is it her way, whether consciously or unconsciously, to confuse you and distract you after that meet with her T and T hearing from the other side?

If she can snap out of it with her friend, then something is there.

[SaltyDawg]

One of the symptoms according to:  https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder

Feelings of dissociation, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside one’s body, or feelings of unreality.

What you described is 'dissociation'.

You need to explore if you can accept the person whom your wife currently is - defects and all.  Also, if she is actively addressing these issues seriously, or just going through the motions.  Use your counselor to sort these feelings out and do what is best for you as there are no children at home.

Based on what you have shared, and if it were me, I personally would cut my losses and run especially as she is not honest with her counselor.  However, do see a 'high conflict' divorce attorney, and follow his / her advise.  Do your homework, on which ones are better.  Change your passwords on financial liability accounts (banking, amazon, etc.).  Do document all of her indiscretions that will hold up in court.

Good luck, I feel for you.  My previous relationship in the late 1990's was eerily similar to what you describe as your current relationship with your wife.  A uNPD&BPDgf/so [undiagnosed NPD & BPD girl friend/significant other], I ran away as fast I could after the 2nd time I found out she was unfaithful to me.  However, I did jump from the proverbial 'fire' to the comparative safety of the 'frying pan' and I am currently with a uBPDw who projects herself as the perfect church lady while I am the f- up sailor who married her.

I am a sucker to be a caretaker of the BPD/NPD and have found the following book most helpful in dealing with my emotions and how to deal with the partner, I highly recommended reading the following book:  Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life by Margalis Fjelstad

[ConfusedCanuck]

Not sure why i keep this going, but going to post a little update...

She got out of the institute last week.  And on Friday it was our 28th anniversary.  So we went out for a dinner and to a football game.  Things were going well, she was happy, a bit off, but happy.  Then I ran into an old guy friend and started talking, she walked off a bit and met a guy..froma  short distance i watch as she touched his arm, shared a beer with him and touched his back.  I went over and said lets go.  She kissed him and whispered in his ear.  I found out later what  she whispered to him about wanting to have sex with him.   So the next day i told her it was time to leave.  This might be the last time.  I could not believe this happened right in front of me..on what seemed to be a good night and our anniversary. 

[Turkish]

I have no words, CC. Sex-love addiction? What did she say and what are you going to do?

[SaltyDawg]

CC,

I am going to try and connect the dots; hopefully, you can see the full picture here...

• Not sure why i keep this going,  Sounds like Trauma Bond Codependency -- check this out with your Therapist
  
  
• She got out of the institute last week.   She has just completed the most intense treatment available, so she should be on the 'mend'; however, ...
  
  
• I found out later what she whispered to him about wanting to have sex with him.   So the next day i told her it was time to leave.  This might be the last time.  I could not believe this happened right in front of me..on what seemed to be a good night and our anniversary.

Start believing! 

Your "Wise Mind" needs to listen more to your "Logical/Reasonable Mind" and less to your "Emotional Mind", talk to your Therapist, make a decision, and then fully commit on a course of action as you have seemingly done all you can with a full hospitalization.  Is she in PHP [partial hospitalization protocol] or IO [intensive outpatient] -- this is usual 'weening' process from full institutionalization?  If, "yes" to either of those, discuss with their teams of therapists what went on during your anniversary, if your 'gut feeling' indicates that that would be helpful.

If, I were in your shoes, I would contact an attorney, protect whatever assets I could [I am actively documenting -- see my other posts on the issue], and then follow the advise of that attorney [do not let your wife know you are doing this] -- that is what I want to do now with my wife, and my situation is less extreme than yours; however, there are children in my mix, so I cannot do that to the children.

[ForeverDad]

She just was released from [what I'll call rehab].  With that thought in mind, when alcoholics or drug addicts exit rehab, what is their greatest risk?  That they relapse into prior patterns.  They really can change, but it takes immense determination.  She was just released and this happens.  Does she want to change?

While you do care for her, it may be time to let her live her own life.  You can't force her to be faithful just as you can't force her to be mentally healthy.  This is not to say you can't choose to continue being her lifestyle guardian but then the question would be whether you can do it and still feel emotionally healthy.

What you can do is to structure her finances as she "moves on" to wherever in such a way they last for as long as possible.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks everyone.

So much happens in a day in my life right now i can hardly keep up.

Currently she is living with her parents, two weeks now. They can't handle her and she needs to leave.  I am looking at apartments, but we are not sure she can make it on her own.  She can't cook now, doesn't shower, has memory and cognitive problems.  And now lies so much to everyone..pathological.  The other option is for her to come home.  She wants to go back to mental institute but they will not take her back again.

She went for a DBT program appraisal i guess its called, but apparently they won't let her in as they say she is not capable of doing that at this point.  Sadly, the DBT Therapist won't give me any details until my wife gives her permission to talk to me.  Hopefully in this next weeks appointment we can change that.

Has anyone else seen problems that are almost dementia like?  She can hardly remember things from the same day, and keeps getting time lines mixed up.  Thinking something happened yesterday that was years ago.  She also says very confusing things..ie..out for lunch with a friend and says, "i hate that this place put thousand island dressing on the casaer salad"  at a place she has never been to before.  After being told they wouldn't, she still asks that waitress not to do that.   There are so many little examples of that every day.  Getting into someones truck after leaving a grocery store with a friend...when they came in a car, and none of the family even has a truck.

[ConfusedCanuck]

My sis in law did a cognitive test on my wife.  Sis in law is a nurse, and its a test they do on patients being admitted to a care home.  She scored fairly low.  Failed questions like:

what day of the week is it,
what month is it,
spell a word backwards,
fold a piece of paper in half
write a sentence
draw a simple image of two shapes to match a diagram provided
read a sentence out loud then do what it said (Smile after reading this sentence)

Still wondering if the cognitive issues and memory issues are BPD are something all together different.
Also of note, my wife was told it was a simple test, she did not ask what it tested.  When it was done, she did not ask her score or even how she did.  Just went on with her day.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Moved her into an apartment.  Not sure if this is best or not but will see how things go.

Scored a 19/30 on the McCA test.  Not good.   More and more talk of BPD plus something else that is affecting short and long term memory, as well as cognitive issues.  Maybe some sorta of early on set dementia?  More tests to come.

[SaltyDawg]

ConfusedCanuck,

   I feel for you, I am reading your posts, but don't quite know what to say. 

   You are in my thoughts and prayers, just wanted to let you know as you are going through a very tough time.

SD

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks.  Its all so messed up.  We need to get some brain scans done i think, but here in Canada there is a long wait.  Might have to go down to the US or Mexico even to get something done quicker.

IE we have an appointment with her Dr, in two months.  That is the soonest we can get.  He will then send her for a scan, which will have another waiting period..likely months.   grrr.

[SaltyDawg]

I feel your pain.  As much as the US medical system is messed up, over-priced, limited access, if you have the resources [$$$], you can get anything you want fairly quickly, as that is capitalism at its best versus public health in Canada and other UK countries.

One thought came to mind which may or may not be relevant, and my train of thought is a tangent to your train of thought, if the mild cognitive impairment that seems to be recent and the symptoms presented somewhat suddenly  [e.g. one day she was fine, and the next day she wasn't].  Have mini-stroke(s) been considered, as that could possibly induce some of the symptoms that you are witnessing?  I would imagine if you mention that, and your medical professionals are in agreement, it might get your wife more immediate attention for a brain scan as it would become higher priority.

For limited public resources, it often comes down to how you word the truth that will determine how much priority is assigned to it.

I will give an example in the US, if you discover that you have been robbed of let say a bicycle [but don't tell them that you see the bicycle being ridden by some punk kid the next street over], and call 911 to report it.  They may eventually send someone out to get a police report sometime that day, or even later on in the week, if ever.  However, if you tell them you have been robbed and use the key words to the dispatcher of "in progress" [similar in immediate effect to triggering a borderline] saying that your robbed of your bicycle, and you also tell them that it is in progress as you see the punk kid that stole it is riding it -- you will likely get immediate attention to the matter.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks..yeah that makes sense.

I may actually bring her to emergency tomorrow.  Family has told me she can no longer take her meds on her own. Today  she took two days worth.  They are blister packed and she only has a weeks worth at the apartment.  I think she might wake up from a nap and be confused and take the next days pills.  She cannot keep track of the days it seems. 

So depending on how things go tomorrow, i may that her into emergency and see a DR and try to get some scans ASAP.  I am also looking hard at Mexico and might take a little trip in the next few weeks.

[RisingAboveAll]

I want to chime in to say that my pwBPD ex also was hypersexual. She usually wanted to have sex several times a day, and in between she would go in the bedroom or bathroom alone and masturbate. It's an addictive behavior like any other. I feel sick that I let myself believe our sex life was about love and affection, when I understand now it was her attempt to regulate her emotional state. Like cutting, like getting high, like risky behavior. She couldnt go a few hours without an intense sensation or the numbing of sensation.

[SaltyDawg]

CC - Please keep us updated, as that is very concerning.

   potentially triggering sexual content below 

RAA - That's a bit extreme.  My wife, when we first met, until we conceived our first child she wanted "it" every day we were together (just about 5 years), and then went cold turkey.  My #1 love language is 'physical touch' so she was ringing my bell every day - ideally I like it twice maybe three times a week; however, for her it was every day we were together [except during menses] It was 7 times per week, and then 7 times in a decade (a 500x difference) -- No BS. 

The only plausible theory [guess], I am going to use a slang term of "Daddy Issues" as my mind's ANTs do not want to think of it in reality.  I will be addressing these ANTs soon with my individual T now that my pwBPD is finally self-aware.

When we first met, there were a few days that it was higher; however, if she was overstimulated [too many times, or I took too long and teased her 'spot' for too long, as I wanted to maximize her pleasure], her nervous system would kind of 'short out' from too much pleasure and she could no longer have the big "O" and there would be a mental/physical manifestation of dissociation/detachment from the 'spot' to the mind - the last listed symptom of BPD until she returned to baseline.   I am curious if anyone else here has observed this?

[ForeverDad]

For a decade we were intimate frequently.  One thing that didn't make sense was she almost always wore sweats to bed.  I felt it wasn't conducive to our comfort.

Then we had a child.  Oh my, having a child doesn't fix serious mental health problems, it vastly complicates them later with custody and parenting schedules.

Then he reached the age when her own sexual terrors started when her mother met the future child abuser.  Yikes, I knew about this but now I was a (good) husband which she couldn't separate from her mother's (bad) husband.  For years I was so thankful we had a son, imagine how much worse (her allegations of child abuse against me) would have been if we had a daughter!

[ConfusedCanuck]

A friend from here messaged me, and i thought it might be good to post an update.  Maybe it will help someone else, but i rather doubt it.   So much has gone on since i shared here.

Hard to even remember what all happened since you all supported me here, but she continued to deteriorate in the apartment.  We had to get homecare involved and there were many scary incidents. 

In Jan of 2023 she got re-diagnosed with Frontotemporal dementia.   This was a super bad diagnosis.   I was basically told that she would only have years left to live.  It was hard to predict as they did not know when it started, but suggested we were fairly far along already.  The DR and other support staff told me to get our affairs in order, and if i wanted to do anything together as a family it was the time to do it.  So, because of all this i moved her back to our home.  We took a vacation she had always wanted, and then another with our kids.  It was a really hard time..

A lot of things seemed to really make sense with the FTD Diagnosis.  Including some of the affair stuff even.  In hind sight, the BPD diagnosis totally seemed to fit at once time too.

After moving her back home..she started to improve.  I was told that would be normal as she was back in comfortable surroundings, with my support.  (Also had home care helping for a while).  She eventually was able to manage her own pills in the blister packs etc.  She continued to slowly improve over time.    Somewhere in there she got a PET scan, and it showed up negative.   She eventually was re-diagnosed as not have FTD (a blessing).  But once again had no idea what was going on.

SO.....now she is at home.  She is in bed a lot, but says not depressed.  Some days she is out of bed maybe once or twice for a total of an hour or two.   She can function when she wants to.  We can go out with friends sometimes, and if people don't know her they hardly can tell.  Friends notice she is different, but she does better when out than at home.  Maybe trying harder.

The latest diagnosis we have now is Bipolar Disorder.   I am not sure it fits but maybe.  She really does not have swings in mood..she is a constant low or flat mood.

[Tangled mangled]

A friend from here messaged me, and i thought it might be good to post an update.  Maybe it will help someone else, but i rather doubt it.   So much has gone on since i shared here.

Hard to even remember what all happened since you all supported me here, but she continued to deteriorate in the apartment.  We had to get homecare involved and there were many scary incidents. 

In Jan of 2023 she got re-diagnosed with Frontotemporal dementia.   This was a super bad diagnosis.   I was basically told that she would only have years left to live.  It was hard to predict as they did not know when it started, but suggested we were fairly far along already.  The DR and other support staff told me to get our affairs in order, and if i wanted to do anything together as a family it was the time to do it.  So, because of all this i moved her back to our home.  We took a vacation she had always wanted, and then another with our kids.  It was a really hard time..

A lot of things seemed to really make sense with the FTD Diagnosis.  Including some of the affair stuff even.  In hind sight, the BPD diagnosis totally seemed to fit at once time too.

After moving her back home..she started to improve.  I was told that would be normal as she was back in comfortable surroundings, with my support.  (Also had home care helping for a while).  She eventually was able to manage her own pills in the blister packs etc.  She continued to slowly improve over time.    Somewhere in there she got a PET scan, and it showed up negative.   She eventually was re-diagnosed as not have FTD (a blessing).  But once again had no idea what was going on.

SO.....now she is at home.  She is in bed a lot, but says not depressed.  Some days she is out of bed maybe once or twice for a total of an hour or two.   She can function when she wants to.  We can go out with friends sometimes, and if people don't know her they hardly can tell.  Friends notice she is different, but she does better when out than at home.  Maybe trying harder.

The latest diagnosis we have now is Bipolar Disorder.   I am not sure it fits but maybe.  She really does not have swings in mood..she is a constant low or flat mood.

Sounds like you have had a terribly bumpy ride.
Bipolar disorder can present with long periods of depression- is the diagnosis from a psychiatrist?

I see she was diagnosed with FTD and that has now been ruled out-- were you there when the  FTD was diagnosed or were you told by your wife or other family member ?

This skipping from one diagnosis to the next looks too much like BPD- I know from experience that psychiatrist struggle with dealing with pwBPD. I’ve heard of colleagues who have left the profession because of this.

I can’t imagine how frustrating this must be for you and the family having to deal with this uncertainty about the diagnosis.


My mum didn’t use her mental health to demand care and attention from everyone in the family but she manipulated us with her physical health. She could go from being bed bound- needing to be served to feeling 100% well in a day - well enough to travel a long distance to attend an occasion.

I think my mum has BPD/NPD but she deteriorated to needing hospital admissions.

How are you looking after yourself?

[Tangled mangled]

*never deteriorated to needing hospital admissions-


her NPD would not let that happen!

I’ve read through your previous posts from 2022-

A few things standout- I’m a health care professional- so I’m a lot more skeptical about things.

I’m quite concerned that your sister in law did the MMSE/MoCA on her own sister.

I wonder if this is an attempt to cover the family secret/shame. Rope you in to believe her behaviour might be caused by dementia, then bipolar.
Now that FTD has been ruled out , you are now having to deal with bipolar- all the more reasons not to address her poor behaviour or facing the consequences.

Although pwbpd appear low functioning but it takes a lot of intelligence to be as manipulative as they are and I wonder if this skipping from one diagnosis to another is the BPD at work. It makes it difficult for any professional to help, because they present with different symptoms for different professionals.
They create confusion, so that everyone involved gets frustrated and this fits perfectly with their delusions of being victims.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Lots to comment on here. 

Sis in law a test, but my wife has had that test and another multiple times now from different psychiatrists we have seen.  She degraded and then started to improve.  So much that they gave her her drivers license back.  But she only uses it to drove short distances.

Nothing going on with Sis in law to cover up. She was just frustrated with how slow things were moving with the Drs.

Bi-polar is diagnosis from a psychiatrist.  She has also seen a neurologist at one point.  The document they produced was really log, but indicated cognitive issues and depression.  They did not seem to have a solid conclusion.

She improved to much for too long and they ruled out FTD.  It also did not show in CT, MRI or Pet Scans.  I was there for this.

Myself, i am doing ok thanks.  I have more time for myself since she is in bed so much.

[kells76]

Hi ConfusedCanuck and welcome back. Glad we can be here for you over the years.

My thought is that no matter what it is going on -- medical, psychiatric, whatever -- it is impacting your W's thoughts, feelings, and perceptions. So even if it were something biological that showed up on a scan, you still have a spouse with severe mood struggles. It isn't like "oh, she doesn't have BPD, it was a brain tumor, so I guess I can't use BPD-based tools and skills with her", No matter what she has, the tools and skills here won't make things worse -- being truly validating and empathetic,  and working to minimize your contribution to unhealthy conflicts, will benefit any relationship.

I'm curious, does she accept the bipolar diagnosis?

Does she see the excessive staying in bed as a problem for her?

Not sure if you've seen the book I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help!, by Dr. Xavier Amador yet; while he wrote it with a focus on interacting with and getting help for persons with schizophrenia, many of the approaches can help when interacting with a person with impactful issues who doesn't see the issues as issues.

The core message is one we all need to remind ourselves of:

I think it is a must read for anyone trying to help someone with BPD traits... .

One of the points I got out of it:

People seek help for problems that they perceive - not the problems we perceive.  They seek solutions that make them feel better - not to make us feel better.

Meaningful therapy as a goal (not a given)... .and it is totally dependent on the person with the illness.  We can help motivate them, but that is a process.

Its not a great analogy, but think of someone who is overweight - can't you change that?  Dieting is tough and it takes willpower and inner strength.  Altering your mind / mental health is much harder.

What can we do?

Anything we say should be how "help" would address a problem the person sees and is concerned about - not the problems you see and are concerned about.   And the outcome should be described in terms of how they will feel better - not us.

If you are very credible, very trustworthy, and they believe you have their interests first - they might listen and start therapy.  If they slip, you might be able to help them up and start again.  If your not that credible - teach someone that is.

It is very tricky - you can support, but you don't want to assume responsibility for their recovery - they have to have the heart to do it.

Might be worth taking a look at as you reassess where you're at.