Couples counseling: excerpt from a book

[zondolit]

There are frequent posts on this forum about couples/marriage counseling when a partner has BPD. I found this helpful. (The language is written with the partner being a man.)

"In a couples counseling context, your partner will be able to spend a lot of time talking about what he feels you are doing wrong, blaming his bad behavior on you, and continuing his pattern of escaping responsibility for his own actions. If he is charming and/or manipulative, he may succeed in enlisting the therapist as an ally, and the whole focus of the counseling may shift toward discussing what you need to change. We have spoken to many dozens of women who were involved with abusive or personality-disordered partners who have had exactly this experience in conjoint therapy.

"Your partner is probably insisting on couples counseling precisely to avoid owning his behavior and the choices he is making. He wants to hold on to his belief that his behavior is your fault, and couples counseling will not convince him otherwise. (It may, though, help to convince you that he is too stubborn to look at himself, the one helpful outcome we see from couples counseling where one partner is chronically destructive.)"

From Bancroft and Patrissi's Should I Stay or Should I Go? A Guide to Knowing if your Relationship Can--and Should--Be Saved.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

Agree with this, my wife is the one who has suggested this from time to time. Her responsibility deflections always starts with a need to "both work on our issues" ie not own any conflict as being solely her instigation. Then it becomes focused on what I need to change, followed by some minor historical ( and rewritten version) of something "good" she has done, as proof she is making an effort.

The reality is equivalent to an abuser handing out candy to "absolve themselves of their behavior", and they need you to work on not saying no when they are hounding you. Mediators who are not BPD knowledgeable will usually aim for compromise. Equivalent of, they get to hound you every alternate day and you get candy every other day. While you dont want either.

pwBPD who can hold it together can often win over couples counsellors, at least initially

[judee]

My exw BPD did exactly this... in reality he walks out on litteraly every argument, hangs up the phone because he gets too angry, never apologizes, uses silent treatments, intimidation to try and control the situation.
I let him walk out/hang up...during silent treatments there is not so much to 'let' .. I am just ignored. it does massively wreck my trust. what makes it worse is that when he decides he can communicate again, he has such a distorted view on what happened. He will tell me he apologised ( he never once did!) and begged and pleaded for me to let him off the phone. This is so far off the truth that I declined going into therapy with him.
I know how he distorts the truth and it is impossible for me to even trust him enough to go into counseling with. It's terrible because if there was honesty I'd love to get help.

[thankful person]

My wife refused to go to counselling, with or without me, and refused  to “allow” me to go alone. (I do now understand that it was my personal choice to comply with her wishes for an “easier life”.)

However, I also felt certain that my wife would never admit that she had any problem or responsibility for our issues, and that she would never make any effort to change anything about her own behaviour.

I read in “stop walking on eggshells” that a relationship is unlikely to survive if the pwbpd is not willing to take responsibility and work on changing their behaviour. I completely disagree with this. I see a lot of posts on here along the lines of “how can I get my partner to attend therapy?” and “my partner’s in therapy; I really hope it works…”

My dbpdw had undergone dbt before we met. It helped with her self harming and eating disorder. She would tell you she no longer has bpd. But this did not stop her treating me extremely badly, being jealous, angry and paranoid, and controlling every aspect of my life.

The amazing thing is that I have absolutely turned or relationship around single-handedly with the incredible support I found on here. My wife is much calmer and treats me with respect now, (most of the time). When she doesn’t I can usually see that her behaviour isn’t “about me” at all.

So I completely disagree that the pwbpd needs to be on board with making any changes. You can do this on your own.

[waverider]

So I completely disagree that the pwbpd needs to be on board with making any changes. You can do this on your own.

You can't "fix" the BDP, neither do I believe counsellors can. But you can make your life more palatable and doable. It does wax and wane though

[FirstSteps]

Yeah, I'm struggling with the waxing and waning now.  My wife is away and shockingly calm and not overwhelming us with calls and crisis, even though she's in a very stressful family situation.  I expected to get clarity on separating but I'm left confused by her calm, even as I LOVE being alone with the kids.  You can see their shoulders just relaxing (metaphorically), which is beautiful and very sad.

[thankful person]

You can't "fix" the BDP, neither do I believe counsellors can. But you can make your life more palatable and doable. It does wax and wane though

I completely agree. I would never claim to have “fixed” my wife. Even though at the beginning of our relationship, this was what I wanted to do. At that time it was out of a feeling of love and devotion, rather than the later feeling of being sick of being treated like sh1t all the time.

I learnt that I could change my wife’s responses by changing my own behaviour. I had finally accepted that I couldn’t control her, but she has changed so much in response to what I’ve learnt. It took time, but my wife responds well to the strategies I’ve learnt on here. Saying that, I do know that she would go back to how she used to be at the drop of a hat, if I ever allowed it or if she ever had a different partner. It is a constant process of remembering to put into action what I’ve learnt. But I’m so much happier and much of this is because I don’t have to see my children scared and confused by the constant outbursts. Outbursts now are pretty rare. They will never go away but are nothing near as bad.

I’m fortunate that my wife adores the children and treats them well. Her bpd rarely manifests towards them directly. But they are still so young and I know this could change when they get older.

I personally feel that I’ve had so much support and advice from bpd family which a therapist would not be able to provide. Funnily I recently ran out of audiobooks to listen to so I bought a book by a therapist called “why has nobody told me this before?” It taught me absolutely nothing.

[waverider]

The advantage of this board is that it is constant reinforcement, and available at anytime of the day. It constantly grounds you knowing you are not alone and going nuts. As opposed to short sessions with a therapist, who doesn't have the "lived" experience, once a month or whenever you see them, by which time little things have become big things, blown up and moved on to the next thing. You need something that responds to the constantly changing dynamics involved

[judee]

So true that.
My ex now wants to go to counselling together using our whatsapps from the last week.
It all made sense to me now as to why he reverted to clinical, non emotional language in whatsapp ( or silence).
I was asking myself a lot of times in the past why his whatsapp language was totally void of emotion and almost lawyer like. 
I didn't recognise anything of his 'normal' totally out of line behaviour , as in yelling, throwing things , walking out, blocking/unblocking me, ( you can't see this in whatsapp either btw), hanging up, hissing.
He told me once he was in counseling with his ex before and I suspect text messages were used as ' proof' as well, or something.
And he was preparing for this all along, hoping at some point to make me come off as the one with the problem.
Not, in ANYWAY going there. To me it actually shows he is even more crazy than I thought.

[Skip]

I think we have to be very careful not to triangulate each other here. That will feel good but it may do us more harm than good. Be careful  
A good read: Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle

Marriage counseling is a very complex subject - counseling in general is very complex - and most of us don't have a realistic perspective on what it is or how to use it because of the super-power image it has in the general public. Courts send people to therapy to get fixed. Publicists send people to therapists to get fixed. Everyone talks about CBT to fix people with BPD. Everyone who drinks should go to AA to get sober...

Are all these people getting fixed? No. This is not the reality of counceling. Whether is couples therapy or even AA, the success rates are low - in the 15-30 percent range. Structured programs like inpatient or even intensive outpatient are much more successful, but there success rate is only 2-3 times better.

But why is that?

It has a lot to do with the mindset of the people going into treatment.

It's rare that someone signs up to go get help because they realize that they could be a better friend or neighbor or boss or be less insincere, or less confrontational. People don't want to invest the time and money to sit and have someone say, this is how you could be a better person - change yourself.

People generally don't go into therapy unless there is crisis. I

People going into intensive programs (inpatient or intensive outypatient) tend to be more desperate for help/survival. BPD inpatient programs do pretty well, but it's notable that many of the people are suicidal going in.

Many people going to marriage counseling often have a different agenda - to fix their partner - this attitude is not a BPD or NPD thing - it's a common thing. Many people avoid couple counseling because they don't want to compromise or hear that they are part of the problem. This is the norm.

So, while the book excerpt is comforting (it's their fault), and a great basis for triangulation, it;s not particularly helpful.

So, what does this mean for us with respect to attending couples counseling with a highly-sensitive, easily-injured person that we want to see fixed? What does it mean with respect to counseling with any partner?

It means a high likelihood of failure unless we change our expectation of therapy and the approach.

Couples therapy is not going to be successful unless both parties are willing to change to make the relationship work... saving the relationship has to be the top priority.  And if that is not the starting point, then its probably best to do the first session as a couple and then break off into private sessions until the therapist thinks its time to come back together (or that it is hopeless).  

Hire a physiologist with some background into addiction or mood disorders or both and who has a warm but firm personality and will speak out in sessions (not just listen and daydream about getting a new Volvo).

With success rates in the 20-30% range, just casually rolling into a nearby social worker or MFT's office is not likely to help you.

The best author on this subject is probably John Gottman, Ph.D. (Gottman Institute). He has spent his life studying marriage counseling and why relationships fail and is well respected for his work.
Good read: Is Your Relationship Breaking Down?

[PeteWitsend]

When I was first confronted with the fact that my then-wife (now XW), was likely a pwBPD, someone explained that MC is focused on improving communication techniques in a marriage.

Basically, it's only successful if the parties are generally good to eachother, but one or both needs to "grow up" quickly, and learn how to express themselves better and talk to other people without provoking conflict just by speaking.

But it one or both parties has deeper psychological problems, MC is just not going to be effective in any meaningful sense of the word.  

AT BEST, a good MC will take the non-disordered partner aside to clue them in on the reality that their partner has deeper issues, so they can stop wasting their time caretaking them and decide how best to approach the situation, whether they stay or go.

And if the MC starts calling the BPD-partner out on their behavior, they will refuse to keep going back; they will only continue if the MC goes along with their disordered view of things.

[Cat Familiar]

I did couples counseling with my husband. He is BPD-lite, not nearly so affected as some we hear about on this forum, and highly functional, unlike my first husband who also has BPD.

That said, one year of counseling produced very little positive effects in our marriage. It was helpful for me to have a safe space where I could actually express my feelings without being cutoff/interrupted, as was the usual pattern.

However, this was interpreted by him as the therapist and me *ganging up* on him.

Ultimately, our communication was *slightly* improved, but for the time and expense, not much else changed.

The best thing was when I returned to see that psychologist individually a couple of years later, she told me that he has a personality disorder. Between seeing her and participating here for several years, I’ve been able to make changes in how I respond, which has changed the dynamic in our relationship so that 90% of the time it’s great.

Some of the things I learned about myself:
1. I had (past tense) an extremely high need for validation
2. I had an unrealistic sense of what a marriage should be
3. I was quick to feel hurt or dismissed
4. I expected him to understand how his behavior impacted me
5. I wanted expressions of remorse and apology for #4
6. I wanted him to have the same household habits of cleanliness, order, etc.
7. I wanted him to not be morose, but to be happy, so that I could be too
8. I was trying to be *controlling*

I suppose I could list a lot of other things too, but off the top of my head, these are things that stood out as major obstacles to my own happiness. Once I was able to let go of these wants/needs, things got a lot better and I was much happier.

[Skip]

someone explained that MC is focused on improving communication techniques in a marriage.

Gottman has shown that this is not enough in most cases and a problem with community MFTs.

Fixing communication is helpful - but only if you the skill to identify the problem (often a values issues or/and indiscretion) and do the work to resolve it.

But it one or both parties has deeper psychological problems, MC is just not going to be effective in any meaningful sense of the word.  

I think in most cases, there are deeper psychological problems and this is the benefit of having a psychologist with addiction and mood disorder experience -  they can work the parties on their own issue. 29% of the population has some mental stuff going on in any year. 1/3 of us fall in that category.

AT BEST, a good MC will take the non-disordered partner aside to clue them in on the reality that their partner has deeper issues, so they can stop wasting their time caretaking them and decide how best to approach the situation, whether they stay or go.

A good therapist can tell you when there is no hope (for whatever reason) - it could simply be that the other partner doesn't care to fix things.

And if the MC starts calling the BPD-partner out on their behavior, they will refuse to keep going back; they will only continue if the MC goes along with their disordered view of things.

MC shouldn't be about calling out anyone - a lot of people hope that will be - but this is a attitude that fails.

Communication skills are more about listening and being heard. A person with BPD likes to be heard, so this can be a good thing.  

Getting each partner to see the other's side of things without judgement is helpful. The without judgement may not be acceptable to either side and is so, things won't go well.

And yes, if only on participant approach this with unrealistic expectations, it will likely fail.

Many time pwBPD traits can handle counseling. But to be fair and inward looking, a lot of us entered with a non-workable perspective.

There are no lack of failed therapy stories - but its important that we don't miss out possible/probable contribution to that if we want to make a honest go at it.

[PeteWitsend]

"calling out" was maybe a poor choice of words.

I meant more if the MC doesn't go along with the pwBPD's claims, and either questions their veracity or tells them they flat out need to stop doing "XYZ."  Or doesn't at the very least give them an "out" by apportioning some blame on the non.  The pwBPD will feel threatened, and start complaining about the MC being against them, ganging up, etc. and refuse to go back.

I've seen others comment on that, and it was my experience as well.

[Manic Miner]

Some of the things I learned about myself:
1. I had (past tense) an extremely high need for validation
2. I had an unrealistic sense of what a marriage should be
3. I was quick to feel hurt or dismissed
4. I expected him to understand how his behavior impacted me
5. I wanted expressions of remorse and apology for #4
6. I wanted him to have the same household habits of cleanliness, order, etc.
7. I wanted him to not be morose, but to be happy, so that I could be too
8. I was trying to be *controlling*

I suppose I could list a lot of other things too, but off the top of my head, these are things that stood out as major obstacles to my own happiness. Once I was able to let go of these wants/needs, things got a lot better and I was much happier.

I find myself in a lot of 1-8 of what you described. Some points I have succeeded and moved on, on some I'm still stuck.

But how exactly do you respond when they tell you lies/distorted truth, tirelessly accusing you of something, yet what they did you know it went through the roof and was just mean? How do you still feel good and apologize without actual apologizing (as that's not advisable for pwbpd - they will use it as excuse next time)?


Speaking of counseling, I can relate to a lot of what was written here.

W and I are going to MC, 3 months already. Several times I tried to explain some situation to T, the way I felt it, without accusing her, no pointing fingers or anything like that, she negated it happened.

For example, my W told me numerous times how she needs a man by her side to treat her with respect and be there when I she needs it.

Me at MC: Well, she told me she needs a man, as a figure, to be with her and understand her.
W: I never said I needed a man or anything like that.

? So how do I respond to this? In the last session I just moved on, but I see a practical failure here. It's not about pointing fingers or how's right or wrong, I try to actually discuss a situation, hoping T could get a better view what happened between us and ask us a question, or whatever, to get better understanding.

[kells76]

W and I are going to MC, 3 months already. Several times I tried to explain some situation to T, the way I felt it, without accusing her, no pointing fingers or anything like that, she negated it happened.

For example, my W told me numerous times how she needs a man by her side to treat her with respect and be there when I she needs it.

Me at MC: Well, she told me she needs a man, as a figure, to be with her and understand her.
W: I never said I needed a man or anything like that.

? So how do I respond to this? In the last session I just moved on, but I see a practical failure here. It's not about pointing fingers or how's right or wrong, I try to actually discuss a situation, hoping T could get a better view what happened between us...

One thought that comes to mind is that it can be easy to get stuck in the "what happened/who said what" and to hope that the MC will help in the arena of "what happened/he said/she said". That is, to get stuck or spend time in the "yes she did" "no I didn't" zone, of specific things/occurrences.

I wonder what would happen if when that comes up in MC, when you say "She told me she wants XYZ" and she responds with "I never said XYZ", instead of hoping the MC "figures out the truth of what happened", the MC instead can help you guys with

"so what do we do when we're here, when we remember things so differently. What would you recommend we do when she remembers not-XYZ and I remember XYZ"

Now, I'm saying all this knowing that yes, the content of what she said matters. It's not nothing for her to say "I need a man by my side"... yeah, there's a lot to unpack there.

There may be some part of her, whether she knows it or not, that doesn't want to talk about that, and her low-skill way to make sure it doesn't get talked about is to "not remember" (whether she actually doesn't or not, is a different question). And if you "take the bait" and try to make the issue about "what actually got said", that can derail the session as you two get bogged down in "whose memory is more accurate".

Take a step back, move up a level, get meta about the how, the process. In fact, this is a perfect process for the MC to observe, and for you to model what you do when she maneuvers you into what would typically be a stalemate. Decline to participate in the stalemate, instead pivot to the MC and ask that question of "what do you recommend for people in our position, who remember things differently, how can we move forward".

Would be interested to hear thoughts on this.

[PeteWitsend]

I have a related question: Should a non even consider going to MC if their partner is a pwBPD or they strongly suspect they are?

About halfway through my marriage, I first learned about BPD, and received a comment on another board from a person who claimed to be a psychologist or had some professional experience in understanding BPD that MC was pointless, and would not address the underlying disorder causing relationship issues in the first place.  

A friend of mine who is a psychiatrist told me the same thing.

I still went, because of three things: 1) My ex-wife was not formally diagnosed BPD, so I couldn't say for sure, (but regardless, even if she wasn't there was definitely something off about her behavior, and that wasn't being addressed in MC),  2) I hoped to make at least some improvement in our home life, even if it was limited and didn't address all our issues, and 3) I wanted to confirm to myself that I had tried everything, and wasn't just looking for a way out; I wasn't just unhappy b/c "the grass is always greener" on the other side.

I'm curious what others think, and whether it's
true that MC with a BPD partner is completely pointless

[Cat Familiar]

But how exactly do you respond when they tell you lies/distorted truth, tirelessly accusing you of something, yet what they did you know it went through the roof and was just mean?

“Hmmm…interesting…tell me more.” That is if you can tolerate listening to them spew lies and nonsense, with the idea that “he will be hoist by his own petard” (she will trip herself up by her scheme intending to blame you.)

If you are not up for listening, then excuse yourself politely and make your exit.

How do you still feel good and apologize without actual apologizing (as that's not advisable for pwbpd - they will use it as excuse next time)?

You feel good because you feel good about yourself, regardless of what someone else says. If there’s merit to their comments, take that in and make a change. If not, chalk it up to their opinion.

Only apologize for something that needs an apology. Don’t validate the invalid.


Excellent advice from Kells  

[PeteWitsend]

#2 didn't work out at all; I did not see any improvement in our home life, and MC actually made it worse because we would leave and BPDxw would be angry with me for things said during counseling

So, in my situation, MC was just another source of conflict.

[Cat Familiar]

I have a related question: Should a non even consider going to MC if their partner is a pwBPD or they strongly suspect they are?

MC was valuable for me for two reasons:
1. The psychologist saw him acting out the way he only did when we were alone

2. When in private counseling, she told me he has a personality disorder

[PeteWitsend]

MC was valuable for me for two reasons:
1. The psychologist saw him acting out the way he only did when we were alone

2. When in private counseling, she told me he has a personality disorder

That's worth it, for sure. 

I didn't get that validation, b/c our first couple MC's didn't see anything wrong with her behavior (though at that stage in our marriage, I was still biting my tongue rather than opening up), and when we did see an MC who started to probe and ask more questions BPDxw didn't like, and told her some of her behavior was just not acceptable, she refused to go back.

[thankful person]

I know if my wife and I ever did attend therapy together then it would create massive conflict where she was unhappy about things I had said, as well as disagreeing with things I said happened and were said. It’s sometimes difficult for therapists to see who is the more sane/insane in such a partnership. It’s important to remember that pwbpd are delusional, some more so than others. I understand that borderline literally means on the borderline between more mild mental disorders such as depression and anxiety, and serious psychotic conditions such as schizophrenia. It doesn’t make sense to argue with a delusional person, because you can’t ever “win”. They will never believe you. I literally can’t believe my wife believes some of the things she claims to believe. A very common line of hers is, “I never said that!” But I love words and I have a somewhat photographic memory of exactly what was said word for word much of the time. It does feel a little like caring for someone with dementia; carers often don’t tell them the truth because it would be too confusing and upsetting. In my wife’s case, certainly it would be challenging her sanity to argue about what was said in the past, even if it was only five minutes ago. I don’t imagine a therapist could keep up with what was going on tbh.

[Manic Miner]

Thanks Kells & Cat. 

@Kells,

I don't think there will be more MC sessions together, not sure my W will go, but who knows. You have a valid point and I would certainly try to change the viewpoint on this from "she said/he said" to "how to approach this if...".

I can also agree with others that said that they had worse experience after MC, because you talked about a problem you wanted to address and they (pwBPD) were ashamed to even mention it, let alone address it.

A shame-based disorder is really, really tough to approach.

[waverider]

When it comes to changing and conflicting recollections you have to remember pwBPD live in a "now is forever" mindset. Whatever their thoughts, needs and perceptions are now will rewrite over what it was at some other time. You may see this as constantly changing their minds, however to them they dont have that continuity of time line, they dont see the history of flip flopping.

What they like and want now, they believe they have always liked and wanted. Yes it is a delusion and arguing with firm delusions is just invalidating and pointless as it is a strong belief to them. You may as well argue with the Pope that there is no god. A belief is a belief, not just an opinion, even if it does change with pwBPD

[Manic Miner]

Today we had a session at MC, so here's what happened, it might be helpful.

In a previous post, Kells told here to try different approach, rather than "he said/she said" and other who-did-it-first attempts.

Well, since something similar happened in our lives two weeks ago (our views on what actually happened differ so much), both W and I agreed to share this to our T.

My W was first, explaining in detail about that bad event that happened, the way she experienced it. As a side note, I noticed it that the outcome will be much better if she starts explaining first.
It was interesting for me to hear it as well, as not only she excluded all "juicy" stuff on her end, but I could actually learn how she felt and how she processed it. It was all about her emotions, how I misbehaved, being rude, how she couldn't take it anymore.

Then it was my turn. I tried to include both sides, my experience as well, something she intentionally (or not) left out. My W was squirmy in her chair, with occasional deep breaths, but didn't interrupt so it was a success, compared to past sessions.

Then T started asking me why I did what I did, what was I thinking at that moment and such. He focused on me. At one point I even thought oh great, this will turn out to be like one of the sessions with different therapist where I'll listen about myself and she will get by with her charm and cunning.

But our T actually saw connection and skillfully connected both of our stories to one.

T guided us with questions like - what if you did X and you (wife) did Y instead? Bit by bit, we got to the point where my W accepted and acknowledged that she was frustrated, angry and in rage. A far cry from her initial statement where all weight was put on me.
At one point she even said "I needed to vent at someone! I'd even vent to a tree!", to what T said "well, go vent to a tree next time".

In the end, he gave directions to both of us, to prevent similar situations reaching the culmination point. He said to me that I should be more direct what I think, rather than be afraid of reactions of my W - at that moment I dreaded my W would just go mad with what he just said. But she did not. I guess his approach tamed her before this, as she realized she also played her part in the conflict.

What I really thank our T was how masterfully he approached this, he chose every word so she couldn't get upset, but still got to the point, never doubting her feelings. What could have been a catastrophic "he said/she said" event, was in fact, a fruitful session.

After we went out, we didn't fight, my W was actually feeling better. We talked and she said that she should learn how to stop before reaching the orange zone, let alone red one. And I could finally say about some tools I learned, how to diffuse and dissolve an incoming tantrum.

This is maybe a small step in our collapsing marriage, but certainly big one in our relationship.

[Cat Familiar]

Good work    Sounds like you found a great therapist.