Village idiot energy theory regarding lack of object permanence

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hello,

I have been thinking about the lack of object permanence that seems to be a significant driving force behind for example BPD, and to my knowledge, also codependent tendencies.

I think it exists on a scale of severity, and people who find themselves unable to sever the connection to their often abusive exes with BPD have object permanence issues in their own lives. Perhaps less of an issue than with a person with full-blown BPD, but enough to hamper one's quest for quality of life.

I was thinking how my best friend of 5+ years would carelessly throw away our friendship just so she could get a chance to bed and date my ex who I was dropping truth bombs about to him, all throughout our r/s. Indirectly warning him of her, and her kind. Her kind being untreated BPDs in a tough spot, mind you. I knew he was codependent from the way I saw him act in his life to other people and even me. We had a heterosexual platonic r/s where he would fawn in front of the craziest of my rants, theories and half-cooked observations.

I've been wondering why I have such an incredibly hard time letting go of my ex, and why building a new life seems so daunting. Why I still cling to the elusive good moments in the first crucial 3 months of our r/s. Knowing fully what kind of a fickle, misguided creature she is at her core.

I've also wondered why I wanted to get back together with another ex with BPD (very different set of symptoms and severity, however) who I've dated twice now. She cheated on me the first time, and was really cavalier about it. "Oh, I did do that, yeah, funny." I don't care that she cheated on me. I barely remember her doing that. If I wasn't this cognizant about everything, I would aim to date her again!

Me and the other BPD ex decided to continue as friends with really hard-drawn boundaries. We decided to only converse about "friend-friendly" topics like work, hobbies, everyday life, and leave the Tarot, astrology, the occult, MBTI out of it. We now converse a lot less and she is clearly antsy and wants something else from me, but it would be unhealthy and limerence-inducing.

I also think limerence is linked to the lack of object permanence. I think the connection is that people with the lack will settle for scrubs of permanence because that is how we see things. The idea, the phantom, the projection of a thing is more important and prevalent to us than having a solid lump of Something in front of our eyes. Even if the had that lump of Something, it may appear ghost-like, phasing in and out of existence. So we take that to mean that the ghosts of things are real. And if there's a charismatic BPD person showing you the ghost of absolute devotion, we chase that ghost. It may even look better than the ghost of a healthy relationship with its relatively ponderous pace and set of considerations.

TL;DR, take with boatloads of salt from someone who is absolutely not qualified to give advice on the matter:

Study the effects of object permanence and if you find yourself relating to the lack of it, study more to avoid falling for the phantoms of intimacy and connection floating in the world.

[Tupla Sport]

Hello,

I have been thinking about the lack of object permanence that seems to be a significant driving force behind for example BPD, and to my knowledge, also codependent tendencies.

I think it exists on a scale of severity, and people who find themselves unable to sever the connection to their often abusive exes with BPD have object permanence issues in their own lives. Perhaps less of an issue than with a person with full-blown BPD, but enough to hamper one's quest for quality of life.

I was thinking how my best friend of 5+ years would carelessly throw away our friendship just so she could get a chance to bed and date my ex who I was dropping truth bombs about to him, all throughout our r/s. Indirectly warning him of her, and her kind. Her kind being untreated BPDs in a tough spot, mind you. I knew he was codependent from the way I saw him act in his life to other people and even me. We had a heterosexual platonic r/s where he would fawn in front of the craziest of my rants, theories and half-cooked observations.

I've been wondering why I have such an incredibly hard time letting go of my ex, and why building a new life seems so daunting. Why I still cling to the elusive good moments in the first crucial 3 months of our r/s. Knowing fully what kind of a fickle, misguided creature she is at her core.

I've also wondered why I wanted to get back together with another ex with BPD (very different set of symptoms and severity, however) who I've dated twice now. She cheated on me the first time, and was really cavalier about it. "Oh, I did do that, yeah, funny." I don't care that she cheated on me. I barely remember her doing that. If I wasn't this cognizant about everything, I would aim to date her again!

Me and the other BPD ex decided to continue as friends with really hard-drawn boundaries. We decided to only converse about "friend-friendly" topics like work, hobbies, everyday life, and leave the Tarot, astrology, the occult, MBTI out of it. We now converse a lot less and she is clearly antsy and wants something else from me, but it would be unhealthy and limerence-inducing.

I also think limerence is linked to the lack of object permanence. I think the connection is that people with the lack will settle for scrubs of permanence because that is how we see things. The idea, the phantom, the projection of a thing is more important and prevalent to us than having a solid lump of Something in front of our eyes. Even if the had that lump of Something, it may appear ghost-like, phasing in and out of existence. So we take that to mean that the ghosts of things are real. And if there's a charismatic BPD person showing you the ghost of absolute devotion, we chase that ghost. It may even look better than the ghost of a healthy relationship with its relatively ponderous pace and set of considerations.

TL;DR, take with boatloads of salt from someone who is absolutely not qualified to give advice on the matter:

Study the effects of object permanence and if you find yourself relating to the lack of it, study more to avoid falling for the phantoms of intimacy and connection floating in the world.

[Skip]

Tupla Sport, you are at the very beginning of the mourning of a failed relationship and it's a big loss. It hurts. Two years is a long time.

Her rebounding with your friend makes it so much worse.

There is a big void in your life. That is no simple solution right now, no pill to make it better; just getting through these first days as best you can.

I think I remember readingn that you initiated the split.  What happened leading up to that?

[Tupla Sport]

Yes, I'm aware of there being no easy way out. I'm just figuring out how to tackle my personal problems leading into these doomed relationships. Living and learning.

I initiated the split because on the surface-level I was in rage by her cancelling our plans and going mute on me for what should have been an everyday bout to handle. For a wider view, I was frustrated by the r/s. Having compassion fatigue, trust issues, everything. We had been play-breaking up for dozens of times before but that time I decided to run it home. Then we slipped and started talking about staying friends before talking about having a break. And then eventually her pulling the stunt of getting involved with my then best friend.

Make no mistake, I needed to get out of that r/s and I knew it. I allowed the slip and thought for a while she could get her life together better if we were apart for a while. She obviously had other plans.

[Skip]

We had been play-breaking up for dozens of times before but that time I decided to run it home.

Do you think that she tried to avoid the pain of the breakup by hopping into the closest possible relationship? People with attachment issues will do this. Rebound relationships typically don't go the duration.

One reason we (you and I) go through "play breakups" is because we are fearful of starting over. A lot of what you are saying sounds like that fear. It's real and its hard to deal with.

A good question to ask is, if a really good person walked into your life, would you ever look back at your BPD ex?

[khibomsis]

Tupla Sport, you dodged a bullet. Two bullets. Any woman who can dump you for your best friend, any BF that can move into your woman like that, are not people you want in your life.
Practice gratitude that you are free and imagine a safe space inside yourself. Imagine love with trust, and not having to look over your shoulder wondering what your closest people are doing when you're not looking. Focus on eating well and exercising. I am obliged to connect with mine over business and it is hell. Here are posts from people who are forced to work with their ex, or worse, have children together. Because a job you can always choose to leave but children you can't.

The only comfort I can offer, having recycled three times, is that you do get better at it. But I wish for you that you don't have to get so wise.

Total NC is indeed the kindest. You deserve better and will find it in time. With time your head will catch up with your heart. What can you do to make your day better?
 

[Tupla Sport]

Do you think that she tried to avoid the pain of the breakup by hopping into the closest possible relationship? People with attachment issues will do this. Rebound relationships typically don't go the duration.

One reason we (you and I) go through "play breakups" is because we are fearful of starting over. A lot of what you are saying sounds like that fear. It's real and its hard to deal with.

A good question to ask is, if a really good person walked into your life, would you ever look back at your BPD ex?

Yes, I am certain it was her fear of the breakup that drove her in his arms. She was projecting so much serenity and calmness when the cat was out of the bag. She really just went "Oh yeah, I was supposed to contact you to tell you I'm not wanting to try again with you". Not her exact words, but that was the energy. There was even that emphasis on "you". Not going to try again "with you". I ignored the implication at first but looking back, it was foreshadowing.

I'm sure if I met a wholesome girl I liked I would "forget about" the BPD ex faster. I am however really aware that I can't rush things. I just want to cheat the system and get involved with someone fast too . But I won't. I did install Tinder again but my strategy is to have a low key energy and vibe to drive off the people who are looking for fast things. Like I used to play up my charm on Tinder before, being witty and energetic. Now I'm going for a really down to earth energy to attract emotionally regulated girls. I'm going for a coffee date on Saturday with someone I'm not absolutely excited about yet, and that's the point. If we hit it off we can get more excited later on. There's no fuse to light yet.

[Tupla Sport]

Tupla Sport, you dodged a bullet. Two bullets. Any woman who can dump you for your best friend, any BF that can move into your woman like that, are not people you want in your life.
Practice gratitude that you are free and imagine a safe space inside yourself. Imagine love with trust, and not having to look over your shoulder wondering what your closest people are doing when you're not looking. Focus on eating well and exercising. I am obliged to connect with mine over business and it is hell. Here are posts from people who are forced to work with their ex, or worse, have children together. Because a job you can always choose to leave but children you can't.

The only comfort I can offer, having recycled three times, is that you do get better at it. But I wish for you that you don't have to get so wise.

Total NC is indeed the kindest. You deserve better and will find it in time. With time your head will catch up with your heart. What can you do to make your day better?
 

Yeah, I remind myself regularly that I gor lucky, having not been entangled with her further.

The brazen nature of their betrayal makes my brain go to weird places. It starts to paint a picture of a once in a lifetime romance where they just had to get together, no matter the implications. Because I conveniently keep obscuring the fact that both of them are emotionally troubled people. They didn't get together because they're somehow destined to find each other, they got together because he is a passive codependent and she a person with quiet BPD and they think their emotional conditions are wholesome and loving. She chose him as her FP over me because he never critized her, yet. They thought that this distanced limerence and infatuation was love. They cheated on me emotionally long before the actual final breakup.

[Tupla Sport]

On some effed up level, putting myself in my friend's shoes, it helps me put the pieces together. I won't go to the length of thinking if I would have done the same to him but if my friend had a BPD partner who made me her FP... I could have been smitten too.

I do my darnest not to use this feeling as an excuse for their behavior as that would be doing myself a disservice. Betrayal is betrayal. But putting myself in his shoes, I can see the false lure of the FP-fishing BPD, and it makes me feel better about the breakup.

[Skip]

I'm sure if I met a wholesome girl I liked I would "forget about" the BPD ex faster. I am however really aware that I can't rush things.

This wasn't my point. I'm not suggesting you look for a replacement or even date when you are this recently out. A very high percentage of the BPD relationships here were rebounds.

What I was saying in that 2 years from now, if you are with someone you respect more, you will not feel the loss of your ex very much. Most likely, a lot of the pain you are feeling is related to the rejection, the void, and the betrayal by your friend.

Sometimes it helps to understand the source of the pain.

[Tupla Sport]

This wasn't my point. I'm not suggesting you look for a replacement or even date when you are this recently out. A very high percentage of the BPD relationships here were rebounds.

What I was saying in that 2 years from now, if you are with someone you respect more, you will not feel the loss of your ex very much. Most likely, a lot of the pain you are feeling is related to the rejection, the void, and the betrayal by your friend.

Sometimes it helps to understand the source of the pain.

Yeah, I understood the spirit of your comment. I extrapolated it to look at how I would be feeling if I let myself rebound too. It helps me look at all the factors in play. I mean, seeing it as "well she wanted a rebound and there he was" instead of "oh my god they're gonna get married and be happy because he is her true match, they would not have done that otherwise".

[SinisterComplex]

Yeah, I understood the spirit of your comment. I extrapolated it to look at how I would be feeling if I let myself rebound too. It helps me look at all the factors in play. I mean, seeing it as "well she wanted a rebound and there he was" instead of "oh my god they're gonna get married and be happy because he is her true match, they would not have done that otherwise".

You were projected upon. Please be mindful of this. So still being so fresh your mind will play tricks on you. I see your awareness here, but I am just adding on that the thought of they were meant to be and that it some epic love story is pure fantasy...nothing more, nothing less.

As you move forward a lot of those thoughts will eventually dissipate. However, my friend it is going to take some time. So again...please be kind to you and take care of yourself. Keep your head up and strive to better yourself.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[khibomsis]

Yes, TS, it must so hard right now for you. If you are patient you can watch them crash and burn. Or worse, if it is the outwardly stable NPD/BPD combo, they just spend years locked in an unendng crazy drama. Work on you. You are lucky to have gotten out so young with your whole life ahead of you.
Me, I just focus on making money and working out. Rich and thin works for me. I have a feeling my life will sort itself out once I achieve those two goals

[Tupla Sport]

Thank you for the thoughtful replies.

The banality of the replacement hit me differently recently. I suddenly became more aware about how different the levels where me and my ex operate in are. When you're enmeshed with a person the concepts of maturity and personal mental health can erode. It's the mental version of helping someone whose leg is broken walk: after a while you start thinking your leg is also broken because you can't walk or run very fast with the other person always asking you to support them. You feel bogged down and accept it as a new status quo.

I now see that I was replaced out of convenience and not love, or lack there of really. Cracks had started to show in the facade after the she moved out in May. I was not afraid to stand up for myself and I did, knowing I would not have to stand her splits in my own home. Add to that my compassion fatigue for her and she must have started looking for someone to "respect her for who she was", ie. someone still in the fawning and idealization phase. And my ex friend was definitely there, ready to step in as her new crutch.

It kind of makes me angry again because through all the compassion fatigue and everything, I was still ready to fight for her. I am happy we are not an item anymore but I'm angry that my basic expectations for reciprocation and integrity were met with a cavalier discard.

[Skip]

I'm angry that my basic expectations for reciprocation and integrity were met with a cavalier discard.

Tupla, didn't you break up with her? Didn't she try to reconnect and you were not receptive? I know that you changed your mind later, but it sounds like she rebounded with him before that.  Do I have it right?

I only say this to stress the importance of us staying founded in our recovery. We all had a bad relationship. We all had partners with serious problems. We all were willing and equal participants in the dysfunction - we just had different roles - and maybe our dysfunction was not as great as theirs, but it was still there.

Breaking up in a relationship, over and over, distorts our thinking that it breaking up something that relationships can endure. We get lulled into believing that it is recoverable until the one time it isn't.

Breaking-up to solve frustrations is absolute proof that the relationship didn't have the skills needed to resolve conflict. No relationship survives that in the end. After the third or fourth breakup, you both normalized an behavior that could only end up where it did.

I think the hard question to ask yourself is do you really want her back? Is that what you are struggling with? The realization that she was someone you really love and want to be with?

Or, are you struggling with the rejection and feelings of betrayal?

Or is it mostly the rejection and the void.

[Tupla Sport]

Tupla, didn't you break up with her? Didn't she try to reconnect and you were not receptive? I know that you changed your mind later, but it sounds like she rebounded with him before that.  Do I have it right?

I only say this to stress the importance of us staying founded in our recovery. We all had a bad relationship. We all had partners with serious problems. We all were willing and equal participants in the dysfunction - we just had different roles - and maybe our dysfunction was not as great as theirs, but it was still there.

Breaking up in a relationship, over and over, distorts our thinking that it breaking up something that relationships can endure. We get lulled into believing that it is recoverable until the one time it isn't.

Breaking-up to solve frustrations is absolute proof that the relationship didn't have the skills needed to resolve conflict. No relationship survives that in the end. After the third or fourth breakup, you both normalized an behavior that could only end up where it did.

I think the hard question to ask yourself is do you really want her back? Is that what you are struggling with? The realization that she was someone you really love and want to be with?

Or, are you struggling with the rejection and feelings of betrayal?


Or is it mostly the rejection and the void

It got messy, man.

1. We fight, I say I want to break up
2. She doesn't want to, I insist
3. We agree to break up
4. We talk about staying friends
5. We agree to take a break instead of breaking up for good
6. She doesn't give me a time frame for the break, says I just need to trust her
7. Two weeks of NC and I ask her for an update
8. She doesn't want to "retry a relationship" with me
9. Turns out she was seeing my friend at least three weeks in from starting the break
10. She picks up her stuff from my place, I initate NC with both of them.