Initial success on an interdiction -- need :help: to keep it going...

[SaltyDawg]

I can report some preliminary progress [success]  with an inadvertent and unintentional interdiction style notification of making my uBPDw becoming 'self aware' of her situation.

I believe that my wife is becoming 'self aware' of BPD and we have entered a transition period here [I hope that I am not jinxing myself by reporting this here]; however, the level of violence and full blown rages have fallen to zero for over 4 weeks!    There has been one muted rage last week [which would have normally been full blown], and a dramatic reduction in splitting events [going from 1 or 2 a day to 3 to 4 a week -- and those too are a lot shorter in duration and a lot less intense in nature.

Two days ago, there was a series of unforeseen events [mechanical failure in our vehicle, the shop we normally go to is closing, and she didn't loose it, this has always been a level-10/10 stressor for her] that would have normally put my wife into full blown personality splitting anxiety attacks where she would attack me -- historically speaking this was the last of four intermediate to major stressors for the day -- and she handled it like a normal person [first time ever] -- this is major progress!

But, and this is a BIG BUT -- My son was also having multiple meltdowns [prior to, and subsequent to] -- and that has a significant calming effect on my wife [when there is someone who is more mentally disturbed than herself, she gets calm], which I also noted this observation when I had my one and only full blown panic attack on coming to the realization that my wife was most likely BPD for the first time ever a few short months ago, and it would most likely result in Divorce.  This got me motivated, to figure out a way to 'correct' [yes, this is another word for 'fix'] the situation.  I know I cannot make her do that on her own accord; however, the trick is to figure out a way to manipulate [yes I said 'manipulate'], in a positive way, to lean into her strengths of self-motivation to help her by helping herself.

   This method is definitely not for everyone, as it is different for each situation -- I believe my wife has both uBPD and uOCPD and does NOT have a significant narcissistic component [if anything a healthy communal narcissistic component where she wants the outward appearance of being a 'do gooder' and doesn't deliberately seek adoration for it] - I believe the OCPD component is what is making this possible  [miserly spending -- she doesn't want to loose $$$'s on a divorce (which she and her Therapists have supported on countless occasions), and an obsession to follow the rules & she has a good moral compass -- in other words this will not allow her to go full blown traditional BPD, even though she has shown all but one [or two depending on interpretation] of the major traits/symptoms repeatedly]. 

However, there is a down-side to this.  The affections of my wife [along with her splitting/rages] have also disappeared.    When I give her one hug a day [with her permission] it is like hugging an emotionless sack of bones that is warm to the touch only.  By suppressing her emotions, she is likely doing one of two things, discarding me, or internalizing her emotions.  Some of it has transferred to our S-11 -- see more below.

 

This is where I need your help.  We are starting a new couple's T this week, from the same business where the previous couple's T, and her individual T both have encouraged getting Divorced -- this is my wife's choice, as she has previously fired all of my choices with abandoning them.

My wife is codependent, and I am too and we cannot divorce each other under recent events being in extremis. 

Also, we have two children together whom it is adversely affecting. 

Our D-15 has dAN [Anorxia Nervosa] and I found her near death [she was at the lethal range BMI of 12.00 when she entered the hospital] under my wife's care when I can back from my last job in 2019, put her in hospital, she has been out and in currently in remission; however, in the meantime she has become our primary caretaker "parentification" by receiving the projections and transferences of my wife's OCPD and has taken it to the same extreme level as her AN.  Due to her hospitilization, my wife does not mess with our daughter for fear of triggering her AN but is totally oblivious to our daughter's parentification.

Our S-11 [pre-pubescent] has severe anger management issues, very similar to Borderline Rages, and also has Splitting similar to the Borderline.  As he is too young to be diagnosed and my individual T, and his individual T thinks it may be a case of 'monkey see, monkey do' and this is a behavior that can be unlearned with comparative ease [in comparison to BPD].  However, there is both the environmental and genetic component that makes him 5x more vulnerable to become BPD -- a watchful eye is warranted. 

 

In roughly 24 hours, I will be having a one on one meeting with our new couple's T [my wife had her first one on one meeting yesterday].  I intend on communicating all of the above.  And the additional following observations that I have gleaned in the past few weeks from BPDFamily.

Here is a list of the most impactful quotes to me that I have copied down from BPD Family, and I plan on presenting them as for the reasoning to proceed:

• "If they can control themselves in public, then they have the capacity to do so in private too, and the only reason they do not is because they don't have to. It's really as simple as that." - This quote is most impactful to me, as I KNOW she can do this, as she did it until we got married. -- How does one go about convincing their pwBPD to return to this 'love bombing' state while suppressing their negative emotions?  I know that I am committed to my wife; any suggestions on helping your pwBPD do this? -- I plan on asking the new couple's T to review the beginning of our relationship and pull out all of the positives, any other ideas?
• talk about 'trauma bonding'  [a.k.a. Stockholm Syndrome] -- What is the best way to reverse this?  [In addition to T]
• "The person with BPD is the only one capable of making improvements in their life and that’s only if they chose to do so. It takes a lot of commitment to do DBT therapy and learn better patterns of thinking and behaving. Few seem to manage the desire to do this." -- Now that there is an apparent 'desire' for it... How does one maintain this 'desire'?  I know that I am committed to my wife; ANY SUGGESTIONS ON KEEPING YOUR pwBPD COMMITED?
• "What really overwhelms you is that you are dealing with this, and there is no culture of safety to where you both can openly express your thoughts. -- Once I realize this, I stopped trying to put it upon myself to change, fix or solve my partner's issues. I realize that my role is to be a teammate - a support figure."Other than simply being there for her as a 'teammate' -- what are the best thing I can do for her?  For us?  For our family?

On the flip side of the coin, I do feel a need to do examine reasons for leaving, and these have been the more impactful statements on doing that:

• book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one." - Ponder that.
• "Really there’s no way for a partner/lover/friend to *help* someone with BPD. Even experienced therapists find themselves at a loss."
• "It’s sort of a take it or leave it conundrum. You might want the relationship with the *good* side of the person, but you will also be in a relationship with the *troublesome* side too."
• "If you're going through hell, keep going."

In addition to the aforementioned questions in this color, can each of you who read this, post at least a 'one-liner' on the most impactful quote that you read, heard, seen [here or somewhere else] with regards to your pwBPD.  I am looking for BOTH reasons to stay and help [which I am more inclined to do, as she is coming to a 'self-awareness'], and reasons to ponder on not staying [if she rejects the self-awareness and doesn't try to 'fix' herself].

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING, & thank you in advance for your input, quotes, and suggestions.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hey SaltyDawg,

(Great user name, btw! We have a buddy who worked on tall ships for a while.)

It's really clear how much you want to deepen your understanding of BPD and how much you want to better your family situation.

You're working incredibly hard to care about your kids, try to stay committed to your marriage, and take in and synthesize new information. This is all so clear in your posts.

Your thoughts, analyses, and reflections, and syntheses of what you've learned and observed, are good things. They've led you to helpful insights, such as that you notice your uBPDw really doesn't have NPD traits, more OCPD traits.

It makes sense that now that your W is open to going to T, you're ready to "get it going", and maybe you're in a "let's DO IT" place? Am I reading those "vibes" correctly, that you're strongly motivated to "put it all on the table" because you would like things to be healthier, and it seems like your W's willingness is aligning with your new info and insights?

So here you are:

This is where I need your help.  We are starting a new couple's T this week, from the same business where the previous couple's T, and her individual T both have encouraged getting Divorced -- this is my wife's choice, as she has previously fired all of my choices with abandoning them
...
In roughly 24 hours, I will be having a one on one meeting with our new couple's T [my wife had her first one on one meeting yesterday].  I intend on communicating all of the above.  And the additional following observations that I have gleaned in the past few weeks from BPDFamily.

It is wise not to bring all this up in a joint session.

What would your ideal outcome of this first individual session be? I.e., if you felt like you said everything you wanted to communicate, how would you want that first session to have gone?

Would that short-term goal match your long term goal for couple's T? What is your long-term goal for couple's T, ideally?

...

can each of you who read this, post at least a 'one-liner' on the most impactful quote that you read, heard, seen [here or somewhere else] with regards to your pwBPD

I can reflect on a couple of "one liners" related to my experience with my H's kids' mom (many BPD type traits, no diagnosis).

*One is that often the most effective ways of dealing with and communicating with a pwBPD are non-intuitive.

*The other is that effective counseling is less about one party allying with the T (sharing insights, on the same page, united to "help" a third party), and more about being humble and open to the process where the T treats all parties equally.

I guess those were long one-liners!

Yet I see those two thoughts as related, maybe in a third "one liner", to which I'll add a caveat that it isn't universally applicable:

*"Do you want to be right, or do you want to be effective?"

Maybe the overarching thought I'm having for your situation is that you're clearly insightful and are able to collect and synthesize a ton of information. This is so helpful for getting that "aha" moment of... this is what's been going on, this is the structure for understanding our situation. The information is correct, it's not wrong. The key pivot point is -- so what do we do with that information in order not to be "the most right" about things, but to make our relationship/interaction as good as it can be, as "least worst" as it can be... how does that information translate into effectiveness?

That might be a really good question for your first individual session: you've been putting together the pieces (well, I might add) and you present that to the T. "T, how do I move from what I know, to improving the relationship?"

If it were just a matter of "presenting correct information" to a pwBPD, none of us would be here 

So maybe that's where the T can help -- what's the most effective way to implement what you've learned, as new tools and skills. I'll remind you of what I've learned -- the effective tools and skills (grounded in accurate information) are often deeply non-intuitive. If you can be open to the real possibility that the way your knowledge looks in practice might not be what you envisioned, yet it might be the most effective route, then that seems like a path forward.

...

Lots to talk about, lots of food for thought... hope some of it is helpful for you. Keep us posted on how MC goes. It's a marathon, not a sprint, as "they" say, so I hope that helps you relax somewhat about this first session and play the long game.

[Couscous]

Other than simply being there for her as a 'teammate' -- what are the best thing I can do for her?  For us?  For our family?

My hope for you is that you will now turn your attention to yourself and “save yourself” so to speak, by dealing with the codependency. This is the best thing you can possibly do, for all of you.

https://codependencyrecovery.org/2022/10/04/7-sneaky-hooks-that-trap-the-codependent-rescuer-in-love/

[SaltyDawg]

(Great user name, btw! We have a buddy who worked on tall ships for a while.)

Thanks, didn't work on tall ships, I did work on merchant ships; however...

Your thoughts, analyses, and reflections, and syntheses of what you've learned and observed, are good things. They've led you to helpful insights, such as that you notice your uBPDw really doesn't have NPD traits, more OCPD traits.

OCPD one came to me as I was checking out all of the different PD's out there [to see if I was f- up], and it too was another good fit for my wife.  However, it is a Cluster "C" [OCPD] and not a Cluster "B" [BPD] disorder; however, both of them deal with control, only in different ways.

It makes sense that now that your W is open to going to T, you're ready to "get it going", and maybe you're in a "let's DO IT" place? Am I reading those "vibes" correctly, that you're strongly motivated to "put it all on the table" because you would like things to be healthier, and it seems like your W's willingness is aligning with your new info and insights?

Yes, you are reading those "vibes" correctly.

She is open to going to T to fix me, even though she knows only a handful of the traits of BPD that I have told her about.  The new couple's T doesn't want to use "BPD" as it is equivalent to being called a name [like 'stupid' or 'lazy'].  I told her even if I don't I will still be handling it as though she is BPD.  Since said that she won't use it as my wife hasn't seen a psychiatrist to be formally diagnosed, I asked the new T encourage my wife on doing that -- and also encouraged her to do that for me in front of her, if my wife thinks I have issues.

It is wise not to bring all this up in a joint session.

I won't on a joint session; however, I will on one on one, and with my individual Ts.

What would your ideal outcome of this first individual session be? I.e., if you felt like you said everything you wanted to communicate, how would you want that first session to have gone?

So far, just one on one.  Will be doing the first joint session on Tuesday.  There is not enough room or time to say everything I wanted to say -- it's too much.  I will take a wait and see approach to see how the first session goes.  I will report back when that happens.

Would that short-term goal match your long term goal for couple's T? What is your long-term goal for couple's T, ideally?

Short-term goals - stop the madness [e.g. violence, rages, splitting] - and for my wife to become fully 'self-aware' so she can do the right thing on her own volition.
Long-term goals - to reconnect to my wife, and restore the marriage. 
The new Couple's T agreed to the first short term goal, and the long term goal, but provided pushback on the 2nd short-term goal.

*One is that often the most effective ways of dealing with and communicating with a pwBPD are non-intuitive.

Agreed, I stated to the new T that 'logical tools do not work, and we will have to use tools geared towards BPD, even if we don't call it that.'  She gave pushback on that; however, I can point them out if they have been tried before, and previously failed -- I used the example of explaining during a splitting event how that turns to a rage -- I gave her the 'do not JADE' tool that is used here -- she said that it was called 'stonewalling'.  I went on to explain, that it will diffuse the situation in a matter of minutes versus being yelled at for hours on end, and I will continue to use that tool in spite of her suggesting otherwise.  She said "we'll work on that".

*The other is that effective counseling is less about one party allying with the T (sharing insights, on the same page, united to "help" a third party), and more about being humble and open to the process where the T treats all parties equally.

I am open to the process, if it is something, I haven't tried, I will try it, especially if it makes sense.  However, if it is a tool that I suspect it may trigger my wife, I will also express that.

*"Do you want to be right, or do you want to be effective?"

My answer BOTH if possible; however, the actual answer is NEITHER at the moment.  That is both my wife's and my Achilles heel -- we both thrive on being right -- my wife more so than me.  I have already learned to back off [to keep the peace] when my wife thinks she is right, even if she isn't, and then I apologize for it [she has yet to 'apologize' for anything other than the painfully obvious and cannot deny type mistake].  So, I am concentrating on being effective, even if that isn't the case as she puts it down no matter what.

Maybe the overarching thought I'm having for your situation is that you're clearly insightful and are able to collect and synthesize a ton of information. This is so helpful for getting that "aha" moment of... this is what's been going on, this is the structure for understanding our situation. The information is correct, it's not wrong. The key pivot point is -- so what do we do with that information in order not to be "the most right" about things, but to make our relationship/interaction as good as it can be, as "least worst" as it can be... how does that information translate into effectiveness?

I hate 'aha' moments, especially the knowledge of her being BPD and what it represents to a relationship -- I am still processing it over 300 hours later.  The real question is can the "least worst" scenario, not matter how it looks, still be acceptable to me?  As of right now, it is not.  However, if she becomes self aware [she is partially] and takes more steps to become more 'acceptable' I can live with that.  I cannot live with how she is now.

I also indicated to the new T, that I am also willing to self-examine myself [even more than I already have with my individual T] on any of her observations of me, as I too want to grow and improve myself emotionally.  I have just recently discovered 'self-care' and its wonders, now if that can be done to other aspects too, I am very open to that.

"T, how do I move from what I know, to improving the relationship?"

Love that question, I will probably use it in the first session with my wife this upcoming Tuesday.

If it were just a matter of "presenting correct information" to a pwBPD, none of us would be here 

How true.  However, I felt 'morally obligated' to do so, even in spite of reading multiple warnings from multiple sources not to do so.  If I see something, I will say something.  In my next post I will quote the entire letter that I shared with my wife's individual T, the new couple's T, and I will likely do the same with my own new T as well -- the letter will speak for itself -- I used the SET-UP principle in it.

So maybe that's where the T can help -- what's the most effective way to implement what you've learned, as new tools and skills. I'll remind you of what I've learned -- the effective tools and skills (grounded in accurate information) are often deeply non-intuitive. If you can be open to the real possibility that the way your knowledge looks in practice might not be what you envisioned, yet it might be the most effective route, then that seems like a path forward.

It's already obvious to me that the new T will need to acquire these BPD tools as well, as she is apparently equipped with conventional tools [see JADE comment above].  However, she did request being able to communicate with all of our T's [so they can collaborate] -- which I think is a great idea; hopefully, something akin to IO [intensive outpatient] therapy can come of it; however, I do think that is wishful thinking on my part.

Lots to talk about, lots of food for thought... hope some of it is helpful for you. Keep us posted on how MC goes. It's a marathon, not a sprint, as "they" say, so I hope that helps you relax somewhat about this first session and play the long game.

Too much food for thought, but I need to take it all in.  Yes, it is a marathon, I am hoping to take a short-cut to getting better especially for the benefit of the children sooner.  I am playing the long game -- I am hoping for the best; but, planning for the worst as I indicated in my other posts.

Since my previous post yesterday, I have other news to share, my individual T who initially recognized the possibility of BPD in my wife (who is a PhD in psychology) realized that he was "in over his head" as that wasn't his specialty.  He has arranged for a new therapist who is very experienced with BPD (80% of her clients) who has agreed to take me on -- so I lucked out and have two new T's this week.

"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, and faithful in prayer."

[SaltyDawg]

My hope for you is that you will now turn your attention to yourself and “save yourself” so to speak, by dealing with the codependency. This is the best thing you can possibly do, for all of you.

Thank you for your advise & link.  I am already focusing on it; however, I will be doing more of that with the new T that just joined the team.  It takes time for me to process the information -- I also want to give my uBPDw every chance  possible -- as I know that she has the intellect, she has the drive; and she is starting to see how her actions impact the family and I hope that her OCPD with a good moral compass will kick in and she will take the appropriate actions on her side.  If this continues on this path, I will give it every chance; however, if she shuts down, the end of the marriage will come when the children are no longer in physical danger of her [which did occur while I was working].

[SaltyDawg]

This is the letter that I told my uBPDw, her individual T, & our couple's T.

I only told her about this issues that she is aware [just a few very impactful ones] of and did NOT mention the ones that she wasn't aware of [abandonment issues, impulsivity, and several others].  I am posting this so you can see how my version of the 'intervention' looked.  I kept it short, truthful, and simple.  No candy coating, but enough to pull some of the more major conventional symptoms to the surface for additional consideration by her and her therapist.

Now here is the 'love letter' that I told my wife in front of her individual therapist.

The reason why I am here doing this – is that I LOVE YOU, [censored name of uBPDw], as you are loyal, caring, extremely intelligent, understanding, can tackle problems head-on, being empathetic, being compassionate, very resilient, spontaneous and fun & and can show deeper and more passion that I have ever experienced before not to mention you are also beautiful inside and out.  Back when we first met, you were exactly what I was looking for in a woman - a perfect match.  Except for the loss of emotional and physical connection, you still do tick most of the boxes for a perfect mate for me, so our relationship has become too good to leave; but, also has become too bad to stay in.  I would love to grow old with you, and make you happy -- that is my goal.  Therefore, I would do whatever is necessary, even if it upsets you, to ensure that you & our family are not in any kind of crisis and we can work this out and move forward to achieve this.

Now I would like to address what I feel are some of the more obvious issues that you are aware of, with us, which might not seem linked to each other, but I believe that there is common explanation for all of these things.

•   I know that your six suicide attempt since the beginning of our marriage (‘03-‘22) has scared the sh*t out of me and probably you too.  I knew something was severely wrong the first time you mentioned suicide only two short weeks after our honeymoon ended!
•   I know that you are confused as to why you recently slapped the crap out of the wall.
•   I know you are confused when I am cringing and cowering, for lack of better words, when you are raging.
•   I know that you are confused when [D-15] braces like a recruit in boot camp when the drill sergeant is barking – this is especially true when there is any level of stress, especially in the kitchen.
•   I know that you were and still am pissed at me when [old couple's T] recently reported you for domestic abuse from incidents over a decade ago.
•   I know that I am upset at you for your recent physicality to me in which I triggered in you by snoring too loudly in my sleep.
•   I know that you have told me that you are taking Trintellix for both anxiety and depression and I know this is very concerning for you as well as me too.
•   I know you are confused as to why [S-11] does the things he does when he gets mad and rages.
•   I too am confused about our entire relationship.  I knew from the moment you passionately seduced me over the New Year’s holiday 2000-2001, I had a 'gut feeling' that something was amiss, but I couldn't put my finger on it until now.

Also keep in mind that when I have a 'gut feeling' when there is 'something wrong' -- there usually is 'something wrong,' take for example my knee...  I was initially diagnosed and treated for osteoarthritis and treated with no effective relief for months.  As I was somewhat certain of a misdiagnosis on my knee; after trying the initial treatment which was mostly ineffective; I stood up against the department head (the top doc) of orthopedics, much like I am doing now with our counselors, I became my own advocate and insisted on additional testing which changed the diagnosis from a degenerative disease to a sport injury that exhibited the same symptoms, a torn meniscus which was operated on and another torn/detached tendon which was not.  

Likewise, I have that same 'gut feeling' with our current counseling arrangement.  For the past three years there have been minor improvements, followed by setbacks with our current counseling, in essence, no effective relief,… just like my knee.  I found a counselor, with your approval, and he immediately recognized a different dynamic going on.  He gave me a book of a more extreme case of BPD.  You are NOT anywhere near that extreme; however, there was enough there that resonated with me to warrant an additional investigation.  I first did a deep dive on myself as I thought I also had BPD -- I did find many issues including abandonment, and two failed relationships and I do have some of the symptoms -- and I am working on addressing them.  I am not perfect -- I am only human, please accept me for who I am and also to be supportive of me.  
 
I have seen you struggle since the beginning of our marriage, as have I.  Even now, with all the more recent negativity, you still make quite a positive impression on me, as I still love you in spite of the lack of affection and romance that is not being reciprocated.  Ultimately, I do want to grow old together, and more importantly being mostly happy doing that, because I truly love you and our family.

As a result of this unorthodoxed 'love letter' that I verbally read to her, she has looked at two books concerning BPD and has modified her behavior, not to do what I bulleted above [success].  However, she has also become cold and distant [failure].  This is where it stands right now.  I don't have any additional counseling scheduled for this week; however, we will see them again next week.  Hopefully I can give you guys an impression on this 'interdiction' journy as it happens.

I do NOT recommend anyone to do this as it is NOT recommended by any source that I am familiar with; however, I am documenting it here, so you can see my mistakes, and I am hopeful successes too.  I am hoping that it will be a success story; however, only time will tell.

[Notwendy]

"If they can control themselves in public, then they have the capacity to do so in private too, and the only reason they do not is because they don't have to. It's really as simple as that." - This quote is most impactful to me, as I KNOW she can do this, as she did it until we got married. -- How does one go about convincing their pwBPD to return to this 'love bombing' state while suppressing their negative emotions?  I know that I am committed to my wife; any suggestions on helping your pwBPD do this? -- I plan on asking the new couple's T to review the beginning of our relationship and pull out all of the positives, any other ideas?


I am going to address this because, this idea made me cringe. What you are wanting to do is control your wife's feelings- to get the love bombing part and not the other. First of all- you can not make her love you. Nobody can make someone else love anyone else. Also, the love bombing is an illusion. It's not that your wife doesn't love you, she may honestly love you, but love bombing isn't that- it's painting you white. It's a part of the push pull- and it's not sustainable because it's only one aspect of her.

She is who she is, and I think everyone wants to be loved for who they are. If the only emotion you want to see is her love bombing, but not her anger, her sadness- that's not real.

I think it's possible to expect a certain standard of behavior such as not trashing the house or raging in front of the kids when angry but you can't expect her to suppress her emotions.

It's understandable she's cold and unemotional around you. She can't just suppress some feelings. She is who she is. If you profess your love for a part of her, is that really love for her?

Yes, she has BPD and that is tough. I understand that. But she is who she is and if she feels she needs to be unemotional around you, then she's not being herself.

I hope that the T can help the two of you move towards something else. I think her coldness to you is sending a message that she's not happy with this arrangement.

[SaltyDawg]

NotWendy,

Wow, thank you for the 'reflection'.  When you read that back to me, I sound like a really insensitive A-Hole and that was not my intention at all; however, it sure does sound that way.  I F-'d up, I apologize to you and those who had to read it.  When dealing with my uBPDw and the couple's T, I will be really mindful of this -- I know this is an issue for me which you have thankfully reinforced for me and I am more acutely aware of it.

Call me selfish, but I do want the woman who I thought I was marrying, the one who 'painted me in all white', not the ugly monster that she can become in an instant [less than a second] for misspeaking one word, or a seemingly innocent action of mine that is misinterpreted and she unpredictably explodes in anger.  She hid all the negative bits quite well prior to getting married -- so I married her, in spite of having ANTS about it where I felt that something was 'off' but couldn't put my finger on it until two decades later when my individual T suggested I was dealing with someone with BPD.  I can definitely relate to the following quote:

I wish the person I’d fallen in love with was real. That sums it all up in one short sentence.

I understand, that a marriage has both good times and it also has bad times.  A true test of a marriage is how a couple handles the 'bad times' as that is when it gets challenging.  Obviously the 'bad times' are very challenging to say the least for me, and much more so for her.

potential trigger below for those that are BPD and reading this The following can be interpreted and/or misinterpreted as transference, projection, and/or countertransference.

I do not want to suppress or control my wife's feelings -- I feel that it is 'okay' for my wife to be angry, or even pi$$ed at me if I do something [or she perceives that I did something] 'stupid' [like I did with the statement that you called me out on] and to express other negative emotions to me in a reasonable manner such as a controlled confrontation [like you just did to me by calling out my insensitivity and apparent unwillingness to see my wife's other emotions].  However, I do feel that it is NOT 'okay' to be abusive and use me as the proverbial [often] and/or literally [rarely] as her personal 'punching bag' to unleash the raw fury of her emotions on me -- this kind of behavior I do find unacceptable and will no longer tolerate like I have done in the past.  When she is baseline, and calls me out [much like you just did] in a cool, calm, logical, and reasonable conversation -- I love it, if I agree with her perspective [like I am doing with yours], I will and have changed myself quite frequently to accommodate her wishes and desires [or expand on my explanation if I didn't articulate it well enough to get my point across with additional 'J'ustification, by calmly 'A'rguing my point, by giving a logical 'E'xplanation or reasoning(s) in order to 'D'efend my action(s) -- like I am doing right now].  However, the problem lies if I don't agree with her, and offer up a compromise -- with her black or white thinking [no shades of gray thinking], except on very very rare occasions she is generally not capable of compromising -- her version of 'compromise' looks like "do I get my way [100%] or not?"  And if it is the 'not'; at a minimum she becomes very passive aggressive, and punishes me relentlessly for it [even more than a decade] -- and if she feels really strongly about it she will explode with anger!  To me, this is not acceptable.  It is definitely a topic that I plan on addressing in couple's T.

I feel that when my wife is splitting [somewhat calmly] and/or explosive anger [Borderline rage], as a result this has definitely suppressed my own feelings, my own wants, and my own emotional needs -- while I tolerated this in the past, in the present this has become 'unacceptable'.  I have done all of the following [albeit unsuccessfully] to mitigate the effects of this emotional abuse in the form of psychological terror that I feel is directed towards me by my wife and to a lesser extent our previous couple's T unintentionally did this as well in the form of reinforcing the unintetional manipulation of my wife's cognitive distortions that included gaslighting.  Yes, I am angry about this and I want it to stop, and yes I want to effectively communicate this to her; however, I cannot as she will likely 'explode' when she hears this -- do you have any suggestions on how to cope with this in addition to the following bulleted items?
• Complying, placating, and/or colluding with with my wife's demands [from not so subtle 'wishes' to being ordered to what to do] to manage her rage and anger;
• Minimizing, denying, or refusing to talk about her 'anger management issues' when she is raging and/or splitting as this will escalate and extend the duration of these episodes from an hour or two to many hours;
• Staying in the relationship and keeping my mouth shut so the violence and/or emotional abuse does not escalate [by not JADEing] -- the only reason why I am deliberately staying in it now is to protect my children -- I have many logical reasons to protect my children that I have posted elsewhere on this site -- it is very scary when I was working outside of the home;
• Engaging and asking for help in learning new manipulative behaviors [as I have expressed in various posts, including this post, on this and other related sites], as a way to 'survive' in this relationship;
• Previously, I was not following through with services of our previous couple's T to avoid angering my wife --  and told the T, which the T did not address adequately, as much on several occasions throughout the past three years [I am very determined that this 'mistake' will not happened again with the new couple's T];
• Using extended length hot showers and excessive exercise outside of the home as an “escape” and inorporating other 'self-care' measures to numb my emotional pain;
• Trying to improve the relationship or finding help for my wife through various T's, here, and on other similar venues -- as group therapy is not available in my area for BPD [I will likely seek out a CODA.org group as an alternative even though they primarily deal with more severe substance abuse issues in relationships].

In a little over 24 hours, we will have our first joint session with our new couple's T -- I don't want to make the same mistake(s) I did last time [primarily by not sharing all of my feelings, wants, and needs like I outlined above].  Our couple's T has already indicated an unwillingness to deal with BPD or BPD like symptoms, so I need to figure out a way manage the use of tools for the non-BPD person [for example the JADE like I just did with you].  If I detect countertransference from the couple's T (I already did due to her apparent ignorance - she actually called BPD as 'bipolar' at one point in the preliminary one on one session that I had with the T this past Thursday.  I corrected the T when she asked about my expression of 'great confusion' and eventually agreed with me when I offered up the correction that she requested), what is the best way to address this when the couple's T that your spouse selects [my wife would fire any of my selections in the past, so I have to deal with what is before me and that is my wife's choice] and is not willing to treat for BPD-like behaviors?

Any other suggestions, recommendations, and are comments are greatly welcomed?

[Notwendy]

Thank you for your reply Salty Dog-

This is a difficult situation- and on your part, when you appease, suppress your own feelings, - this results in resentment on your part- and that isn't a good thing for either of you as well. Working on co-dependency, I learned to pay attention to feeling resentful as a clue that I was doing that. I think a lot of people are put off by the "dependent" idea in co-dependency. It doesn't mean someone is dependent in that they can't fend for themselves. It's a complicated topic but a part is that the focus of attention- on the other person's feelings and then choosing ones own behavior rather than considering theirs.

It's hard to know what relationships will improve with marital therapy and which ones will not. The relationship is between two individuals and the dynamics between the two of you. You can't change her- I think it's important to go into T knowing this. Don't expect the T to "get through to her" to do her part. Changes are more likely to come from you changing your part in the dynamics- through your own personal change. You are the one who has the most insight to the situation- and so may be the one the T focuses on which might seem backwards to you.

I think with a first time session, the T is probably trying to gain information about what's going on. My guess is if your wife feels threatened by the T, she won't follow through. I'm not an expert but just let the T go their job- and see where it goes for the first few sessions- they are probably trying to figure out the situation and will lead with their questions. I think a lot depends on the skill of the T but you don't know that yet.

I also think the change you want to see also depends on the pwBPD. It's a spectrum. We can't control how someone else thinks- if their thinking is disordered- this is how it is. Reasoning, presenting your view- they will still think the way they think. While I have heard that marital therapy may not be so effective with BPD- I think your idea to give it a try and see is reasonable. It may be that the voice and words of the T are less emotionally triggering to her than yours, and the T is going to be less emotionally reactive to what she says.

As to being painted white- yes, it feels good but I see it differently. I don't see the love bombing as being fake or manipulative- I think it's fear based. She wants to be loved too, but the love bombing comes from fear of "if he knew the real me, he wouldn't love me". They hide behind this because they are afraid. When you love that part of her, and not the other, that reinforces this fear. The "real her" is a combination of all of her.

On the other hand, you don't want to tolerate abusive behavior and you shouldn't. I think this is where the T comes in- how can she express her anger and emotions in a non abusive way and what can you do when she's in one of her rages to avoid abuse for you and your children. This may or may not lead to something manageable. You will just have to reassess the situation as you go.

[SaltyDawg]

NotWendy,

  I DO have a lot of resentment, and I know that this is not a good thing.  I'm not 'put off' with the idea -- just trying to accurately identify WTF is going on with me and my feelings so I can better navigate the illogical and irrational world of the Borderline.

  My primary goal is to manage the abuse situation.  My secondary goal is to restore the marriage, if at all possible -- I will do my part by using "I" pronouns in a non-confrontational way while reasserting my hibernating needs and wants.

  It is a difficult situation and I hope that my marriage will improve, if it doesn't -- I need to prioritize my children's safety and well being, and get out when my children get out of the house [+/- 7 years].

Changes are more likely to come from you changing your part in the dynamics- through your own personal change. You are the one who has the most insight to the situation- and so may be the one the T focuses on which might seem backwards to you.

I agree with you, and I have noticed this, the more I implement the tools contained in a variety of books on the topic (largely unsupervised of a T's contrary to the book's instructions, as the couple's T's refused to do it) -- the situation does get better -- from a reduction in danger point of view at the cost of setting 'boundaries with love'.  I have a new individual T who will be helping me out in that regard.  The past couple's T [from the same counseling location], didn't recognize BPD, and her tools and suggestions resulted in rages, divorce threats, and a suicide attempt along with some physical abuse -- I've identified those tools, and will be avoiding them, and I will be sharing them with the new T when she attempts to reintroduce them.   I will follow your advise on the first few sessions and let the T do her job.  I will only object if it is a tool that has already been tried and met with certain failure -- I have already communicated some of these to her.

My guess is if your wife feels threatened by the T, she won't follow through.  This is precisely the reason why I let her pick the T.

I also think the change you want to see also depends on the pwBPD. It's a spectrum. We can't control how someone else thinks- if their thinking is disordered- this is how it is. Reasoning, presenting your view- they will still think the way they think. While I have heard that marital therapy may not be so effective with BPD- I think your idea to give it a try and see is reasonable. It may be that the voice and words of the T are less emotionally triggering to her than yours, and the T is going to be less emotionally reactive to what she says.

I agree on that too.  I will exhaust every possible avenue before giving up, I have seven short years to do this [unless she divorces me first], I am only in month 3 or 4 [depending on when it was suggested or when I came to the realization that I have a uBPDw].

As to being painted white- yes, it feels good but I see it differently. I don't see the love bombing as being fake or manipulative- I think it's fear based. She wants to be loved too, but the love bombing comes from fear of "if he knew the real me, he wouldn't love me". They hide behind this because they are afraid. When you love that part of her, and not the other, that reinforces this fear. The "real her" is a combination of all of her.

I am guilty of that, and totally agree with you on it being 'fear based' as I have retrospectively identified a very strong fear of abandonment in her, even though I was totally oblivious to that fact at the time it was happening to me -- I was blinded by the feel good chemicals in my brain.  I can tolerate a lot, even the suicide attempts [there have been six], countless divorce threats, rages, blames, etc. -- before I knew about BPD I thought her behavior was manipulative so she could get her way, but now that I know about it, I see that it isn't fake or deliberately manipulative, but rather a learned behavior to obtain a desired result that is done subconsciously -- but I am tired of it, and don't want to deal with it anymore especially with no end in sight.  Her first 5 years she made a **** load of 'love deposits'.  Well, all of that 'love credit' has been consumed, and she is bankrupt in my 'love currency', and has been for quite a while.  Now that I know what is going on, I would like to see change.  I am changing in order to accommodate change in her [if she chooses to do so -- in order for her to choose change, she must first recognize that there is a need to change, and with the couple's T and her individual T refusing to confront this issue -- she does not have the knowledge to change], in the hopes that she elects gets better.  I have already told her my opinion on the matter, with a convincing argument [when she was baseline] and she is looking at it.  However, if she doesn't get better, I will once again change, and leave. 

On the other hand, you don't want to tolerate abusive behavior and you shouldn't. I think this is where the T comes in- how can she express her anger and emotions in a non abusive way and what can you do when she's in one of her rages to avoid abuse for you and your children. This may or may not lead to something manageable. You will just have to reassess the situation as you go.

This is what I am doing.  Let's hope it will become more manageable.  I am fine if she suppresses 100% of her emotions, both the bad ones and the good ones, as it preserves the sanity in the house -- almost a month now with only minor flareups, no explosive rages.  I much rather live this way, than having the rages.  It is still not emotionally healthy, but it is better than the alternative.

[Notwendy]

It's a tough situation. I don't know if it's a good thing for anyone to repress emotions- but to learn how to express them appropriately and to self soothe. Ironically, I think this is a "match" point for couples. Each needs to learn better self regulation skills, on the part of the non- the enabling and walking on eggshells behavior is a way of managing their own emotional discomfort by trying to manage their partners.

One thing I learned about enabling is that it's actually controlling behavior.

I think it's good to do the self work to improve one's part of the dynamics. This may or may not lead to positive change, but I think if someone is committed to the relationship- they want to at least give it a try and see where that leads.

[SaltyDawg]

NotWendy,

   I really appreciate  your insight [here & elsewhere].

   I wasn't going to post until I had my follow-up with my individual T on how to deal with the homework assignment that will likely be very triggering for my wife [I will go into specifics on my next post]; and, ...

   ... I was also instructed by the new couple's T to make a formal apology to my wife for [informally] diagnosing her as having 'BPD'[-like symptoms].  Since I cannot honestly make a false statement of not believing that my wife has BPD like symptoms, I will likely make it a plea to see a psychiatrist, together [to offer support] with a sincere apology of not being medically qualified to make a diagnosis [true] and to gently suggest we see someone who is more qualified to assess the situation [and make such a diagnosis, if warranted].  I suggested that on the first 'one on one' meeting with the new couple's T -- she backpedaled immediately after I suggested this and changed the topic.

   I am also prohibited, by the new couple's T from using the words 'BPD' from the first 'one on one' session as it is 'name calling' -- I can see her point; however, do you have any suggestions as an accurate alternative when I want to highlight unacceptable [to me] BPD-like behavior, I would prefer to use 'borderline' and that will get stuck down, and jokingly I would love to use 'bat sh** crazy', but that would likely get struck down too?  Yesterday, I was prohibited by the couple's T from accurately using the word 'rage' at the request of my wife [in addition to 'BPD' from the one on one session before that] and was [facetiously] directed to use the word 'anger' instead.  In order to make it accurate, I will have to use something like she "has an intense, [uncontrolled], irrational anger that cannot be reasoned with and is at an increased stage of hostile response to a perceived egregious injury or injustice".  The italics portion I've already used yesterday, which is the literal definition, according to the dictionary definition of 'rage' -- I looked it up to ensure that my description was accurate.

   I did have one 'win' if you want to call it that, and that was we agreed on a single boundary, when I perceive that my wife has an 'uncontrolled, irrational anger that cannot be reasoned with'.  Since most of my wife's splitting/raging occurs towards the 2nd half of the day [some as early as midday to early afternoon, and most early to late evening].  I was able to have my wife, and counselor agree not to JADE, I mean 'constructively discuss' the issue that my wife would like to 'be heard' on.  When doing this, I was also directed [as was she, but I fear she didn't hear that] to not be 'defensive'; however, the rest of the JAdE is allowed.

   I then explained that I will be using the "NO" tool, which has been triggering for my wife in the past, instead of using being passive aggressive [the 'stale mate' tool] where I would agree to something, and then not do it [to prevent an irrational angry episode] from my wife while she was splitting, raging, or otherwise being irrational.

   I am hoping and praying that my wife read enough of the BPD books to control herself, as I will be doing stuff the couple's counselor directed us to do and she won't explode with uncontrollable anger and won't become irrational.  Time will tell.

   I will post again, once I finish my individual T later on in the day.

[Notwendy]

None of us here are qualified to make that diagnosis on someone else, and even if we were, it would professional boundaries as one isn't supposed to be having a therapy relationship with close family members.

So yes, even if you were correct at this diagnosis- it's out of bounds for you to label your wife in front of her. In the marriage relationship- it's you judging her- a one upmanship situation. This can only feel hurtful to her. Even if you are correct and have reason to say this, consider your goal- do you want a mutual relationship? Even if you want to be right, nobody wants to be made wrong. Right/wrong doesn't work well if the relationship is to be loving. There are other ways to assert your boundaries such as not engaging in drama but being right and making her wrong is not going to help your marriage.

People hurt each other's feelings sometimes. We are human. When we do, the way to repair the hurt is to apologize. This is not dependent on your wife. She may not apologize, she may not forgive, or maybe she will. The gesture is on your part for you. My guess is that the T may want to clear the air between you if possible- and has asked you to apologize.

If you want to discuss behaviors, use the word "I" and make it about you. Don't say "her" or "you". Say " I feel uncomfortable when I'm yelled at". I think she's trying to get you to stop using emotionally laden terms that will only shut your wife down.

If you think of something in terms of "win"- consider that the "win-lose" dynamics are part of the problem. You can win a battle and still lose the war. While I understand you feel you got the short end of the stick here in your marriage, and have reason to, your wife probably sees things in victim mode. The T probably isn't trying to decide who is right or who is wrong here. You came in to the session with a mountain of baggage and a T can't sort this out in a couple of sessions. I think she's asking you to tone down the language that is hurtful to your wife. Consider that she may be working on your first because you may have more insight to your own behavior. She needs you to work with her so best to follow her instructions for now. If things don't improve then you can reassess later.