Anyone else triggered much more than they should be by passive-aggressiveness?

[Methuen]

I do think now there truly is a healthy mother within her that loves me, she is just being torn by her trauma and illness... Maybe if we both keep working at it, just maybe we will be able to be in contact... Maybe it will always be limited contact, because we all know how BPD is affected by proximity, but contact nonetheless.

What a lovely thought.  But I know you will approach it slowly and with extreme caution.  This is still the same person that was responsible for many bad things happening to you.  I hope this psychologist can help her.  Is it a single seminar, or an entire program?  Is it "in person" or a program she is observing on-line?If she tells you something positive about "treatment", can you believe her?  I don't mean to be a suspicious sally, but I have pretty major trust issues. pwBPD always have a motivation, and it usually serves them...

Limited contact might be realistic.  I just don't want to see you get hurt again, so caution is advisable while giving her the communication channel with you, and a chance to demonstrate with real actions that she has new awareness and can change some things. Baby steps.  Nice to have hope.  

[Riv3rW0lf]

Methuen,

Yes. I am aware how much stronger I am now compared to a year ago, when I discovered my mother had BPD. This time, I wouldn't be going in as a young, scared child with hope, but like a mature adult, as my own parent, with radical acceptance that she is borderline and a will to act accordingly.

I am still not entirely ready, but I was happy to see that she is trying to be better, to work on her. Learning to communicate better for her is absolutely a must, so it goes to show she knows what she needs and tries to develop it.

As long as she is willing to work on her, then it can make the relationship possible. But I am aware I first need to practice boundary setting for myself, and setting limits with dysfunctional people too.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Ok !

So...

https://psychcentral.com/blog/how-to-deal-with-covert-narcissist-or-victim-parents-or-in-laws

My best bet is now that MIL is a heavily drugged covert narcissist and that my H likely has fleas from how she raised him.

I am more neurotic than H, so an easier target for her, explaining why I am much more sensitive to her behavior than he is. He might have been attracted to me for this reason too, because he does tend to use covert aggression more than I. I am more ambivalent, or passive aggressive, which is exact what I've been working on through therapy... Be more assertive and secure in who I am and what I feel.

H is good natured though. Not too sure she is. Feels more manipulative than good-natured.

This would explain A LOT of her behaviors.

[khibomsis]

Hey RW, so glad that others have validated your suspicions about your MIL! One thing I thank all the BPD's in my life, they have honed my spidey sense for dysfunction. I smell it a mile away these days. One of the consequences of healing is sniffing how crazy others are.

I went NC twice with my uNBPDmom in my life. Both times were a couple of years, and after that I settled on a kind of controlled LC. It worked for the next two decades. 

I ended up both loving and respecting my parents. They did the best they could with what they had, and in many ways more loving or committed parents would have been hard to find. That doesn't excuse the abuse, I was raised by two people with PTSD and the scars will remain with me for life. In fact, it is only recently that I have been able to discern something beyond the scars. These days I recognize the anxiety and process it rather than knowing no other state of being. Still, with all their flaws I cannot remember a deliberately evil moment. My mom's narcissism was so complete she did not conceive of us as separate from her. She would not have hurt herself. It is in a way so devastating (even then it didn't get to be about me and so charming all at once, No wonder I spent years feeling so conflicted. Still their actions were due to their shortcomings and not to deliberate malice on their side. Had diagnoses and therapy been available and possible for them I am sure my father would have had no hesitation in accessing it. To refuse medical care for the sick was not his way.

It was this, I think, that enabled the LC. And it took me years to be ready for it. Had there been malicious intent I am pretty sure I would have stayed NC.

 

[Methuen]

My mom's narcissism was so complete she did not conceive of us as separate from her.

I am wondering if you mean that a parent who is unable to let her child (any age including adult) individuate and recognize them as a healthy "separate" person, is also a narcissistic parent?

I'm looking for clarification.  Somehow I've always associated this more with BPD rather than NPD, although I recognize there could be overlap.

I've never thought of my mom as a narcissist, but I'm questioning that now.  I'm kinda wondering if this is another missing piece of the puzzle.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Khimbosis,

Thank you for pitching in, I think I was again in a swirl out of control .. MIL is not a psychopath, and she does have a gentle side too.

I really have to be careful when I get triggered, I tend to direct all the rage and anger Little Riverwolf felt on whomever wronged me, but I cannot and shouldn't do that. It's unhealthy.

But still, I cannot trust her because of her dysfunction. Similarly to my own mother, she is clingy and looks like she wants to enmesh my children. I cannot accept her critics anymore, and her out of place comments. So I will need to set limits and find some strong boundaries for myself to preserve my sanity.

I am thinking about what those could look like...

I feel calmer now that I got it all out though.

You are all amazing, I really love this forum. I feel like I matured an awful lot with your support. 

[khibomsis]

Methuen, yes, that is exactly what I mean. For my mother, she was the world. Or at least her children  It is what held back my own individuation for so long. To this day I can feel a cold fear blowing when I manifest myself. Takes a lot of courage to do so, even though mom ain't around to punish me.
Riv3rwolf, I love the way you work yourself back from your triggers every time. I would suggest working through boundaries with your therapist. I used to rehearse them with my therapist every time I would go visit my parents. Thorough preparation before and then an evaluation when I got back. It really helped.
 

[Couscous]

Here is is an excerpt from The Emotional Enmeshment Syndrome on making peace with your in-laws that might be of some use:

If your mother in law is violating your rights then you have a reason to discuss it with her. However, if your mother-in-law is violating your husband’s rights, then it’s up to your husband to set the record straight. It’s not your problem – it is his. You’ll have to discipline yourself to stay out of matters that don’t directly concern you.

For example, you may be very upset with the way your mother-in-law smothers your husband. You may be thinking, “look at how she treats him she expects him to meet all her needs! Why can’t she leave him alone?” What do you need to ask yourself is, “is my mother-in-law’s behavior a problem to my husband?” It could be that her behavior is more troubling to you than him; he may have resigned himself to her treatment long ago. It’s up to him to resolve the matter. All you can do is make your sentiments known to your husband and let him take it from there what you can do is focus on issues that pop up in your relationship. It is very likely that there are some similar dynamics in operation.

On the other hand, what appears to be an in-law problem can in reality be an undiagnosed marital problem. For example, if you approach your wife with a suggestion that you go skiing over spring vacation and she says, “no, I feel obligated to spend time with my parents,“ then you have a valid complaint with your wife, not your in-laws. She is allowing her parents to be more influential to her than you are. In a healthy family system, the husband and wife give each other as a priority and allow both sets of parents to recede into the background. Since your wife is not doing this, the two of you have a legitimate issue.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Just an update... H and I talked about the situation with MIL.

He agreed to all of the limits I outlined i.e. they won't be seeing the children alone; and I won't be going to see them by myself anymore.

So basically, he will need to be there for every visits with the in-laws, or he will be the one that will need to go there with the children.

I basically let him know that it seems that just like he was the scapegoat growing up, I was becoming, by proxy, a family scapegoat, and I had no interest to be one.

He said it was heavy, that he was tired of me speaking against his mother. I said I was not speaking against her, but rather was presenting him what she says and does and why I needed to set limits... He was silent and said : "It's just... I have no idea why she says all this and why she is being like that." So I pointed out to him that when he entered MY family, he saw right away how "intense" my mother was. Also that, after 15 years away, maybe he could see the dysfunction more, like I discovered my own mother was BPD after many years appart. He nodded.

In the end, he never wanted to come with me to visit his parents; he becomes nervous when they are scheduled to visit. I think I unwillingly made him hope they were safe when I started caretaking them, all the while freeing him from the pressure to do so himself.

So in the end, he said he didn't care what they thought about him and I and our life, that he had stopped caring many years ago and that he was fine with all the limits I wanted to instigate. That he would support me.

So I guess... Part of him knew all this. He was a scapegoat, his brother the golden child... So he is, by default, much less enmeshed than his brother... He wants to be the "good boy" but he keeps being rejected, even now... He is always the "second choice", but he will take it, since that's the only recognion he can get... Maybe that's why he didn't need much convincing on my part. He kinda knew already...

[Notwendy]

In the end, he never wanted to come with me to visit his parents; he becomes nervous when they are scheduled to visit. I think I unwillingly made him hope they were safe when I started caretaking them, all the while freeing him from the pressure to do so himself.

So in the end, he said he didn't care what they thought about him and I and our life, that he had stopped caring many years ago and that he was fine with all the limits I wanted to instigate. That he would support me.

Wow that went well. Such insight on your H's part.

And the part where he didn't want to be critical of his mother- I think we all can relate to feeling uncomfortable saying less than complimentary things about our mothers. It's a bit of a taboo, it feels wrong, but there's a difference between "bad mouthing" them and bringing up issues in order to find a solution.

You did well- your H did well!

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

I know your situation was different, on account on your mother being much more aggressive than H's mother. But how was it for you, being a scapegoat? What kind of scars did it left you?

You talked a lot about the codependency, and I can see that a bit in H when his father leaves. But there seems to be a void inside of him too. I don't think I internalized "not being enough", as much as he did... Did you?

You don't have to answer, as I know this is deeply personal. I guess I am trying to get more insight into H's vulnerabilities, and if I am seeing things right.

[Notwendy]

I don't mind- the "never enough" was the predominant message. Nothing I did was ever enough. BPD mother would tell me I was unlovable and that I was the cause of her issues with my father. I had very low self esteem. In college and after that, I over achieved, thinking maybe I could redeem myself with my parents. It was never enough.

Interesting, my H got the never enough message too, even if his parents were so different. His father was critical. He didn't feel he could ever please him. In reality, his father thought the world of him but didn't know how to show it.

I can see how your H feels though.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So... This week, H brought up the subject of his childhood by himself  

We were able to finally breach the subject of how he felt they didn't care what he was doing. They weren't enforcing anything. How his father would tell him he would help him with something and then stop two days after, how there was no consistency. I brought up the idea of the scapegoat VS the golden child, and he admitted that he felt his parents failed him...didn't see him. He said : "they don't know me at all."

As you might all remember, I stopped going to MIL and FIL by myself. So H now has to be the one to visit which he does every Saturday morning. This basically forced him to be in contact with his parents more often, because he still feels compelled to include them, with limits, as grandparents in our family. And I think he is starting to notice patterns, emotions rising up when he goes there, and it kickstarted his journey.

And this morning was amazing ! For me anyway ... !

He came back and told me : "I had to scold my mother." And I was like : "Yeah? ... Wanna talk about it?"  

He said : "She bought christmas calendars for the children. And it really pissed me off. I told her we already had Christmas calendars for them, that this was OUR role as parents and to stop trying to take more place than she should as a grandmother."

I didn't say anything but damn did I want to point out to him :" remember all those times where I was trying to tell you exactly that and you didn't care? And said I was making up problems?" Thankfully I didn't... I just said :" she is emotionally clingy".

To which he answered :"Yes ! This is the exact word, she is clingy. There is a clingyness to her that unnerves me ! If she doesn't stop those behaviors, I will have a sit down with dad because it is starting to create issues. She asked to see DD too, because she hasn't seen her for a month now (he goes there while DD had dancing classes with me). And I told her we were busy. She cannot cling to our children like that. It is unhealthy. Dad said nothing to back mom so I think he gets it, but I'm not sure."

I heard the child in him with this last sentence... A certain fear that he might have to fight his dad... I imagine it happened a lot growing up..  

H doesn't want his parents involved in his life... He doesn't mind them around, but he doesn't want them close. Why would he? They blamed him all his life, said he was undisciplined, egoist, a bad child... When he is the warmest person I've ever known. He pulls me up, he is an amazing father, he is supportive, a great listener, curious...

Everytime I said something good about him to MIL, she'd say something like :" His brother is like that too, but very calm and patient too." It made me incredibly angry. H doesn't care, H is used to it. But now H doesn't take any   from them anymore.

Stepping out and stopping my visits there was the best decision I have taken for a long time. H and I are truly on the same team now that he sees it too.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I hope you all get that the problem wasn't the calendars themselves, but the pattern of behaviors behind the calendars...  

I suspect many things were said and happened on those other times he went there that he didn't feel important to share. And this morning, he had his first "bursts".

Like I know she mentioned me last time... that she hoped I can "alternate Christmas diner with my family" so she can arrange dinner with her other son. Knowing her, there was an attitude with that request that he picked up on, because when he told me about it, he was a bit off. I laughed and said : "of course not, you know me, I only think about myself and my FOO." And he got the joke right away... Knowing her, that probably how she brought it up.

MIL has shown resentment in the past, a tendancy to not accept when I go see my father with my children...  Once, she intervened in a discussion with my H, to say : "Well your father just has to swallow his pill", I looked at her and said :"Mind your own business and don't talk about my father like that. You don't even know him." Thinking back on it this was an incredible red flag, still glad I told her to back off that time.  

So best guess, she also tries to triangulate H against me, likely thinking the "low sugar" for snacks and stuff comes from me, that I am the mean daughter in law, and it is bursting in her face, because H and I truly are on board with how we parent and he is incredibly protective of our family...    ... He is also the one who bought the Christmas calendars. He was so proud of himself might have contributed to his irritation.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Wrong click.

[Notwendy]

That's great news. I think when we step out of the way and let them deal with their families, they can come to their own conclusions.

Besides, we have enough "crazy" from our own families to deal with. We can do our "crazy" and they can do theirs 

[Couscous]

Now the challenge is going to be for your H to stay out of the persecutor role  although it's entirely understandable that initially his impulse is going to be to do just that. Since his mother is probably not going to change her needy behavior,  sitting down with his father may not accomplish much, and would technically be triangulation on your H's part. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but I really recommend the book, The Emotional Incest Syndrome for great suggestions on how to have a 10 second confrontation with parents that doesn't turn into drama triangle dynamics. It's worth getting for the chapter about parents alone, and the book is applicable to anyone who grew up in enmeshed family -- not just the "chosen child".

The issue of the gift giving is always a tricky one -- although I totally agree that laying down the law about candy is absolutely within a parent's rights. When my SIL tried to ask my mother to stop sending gifts she was extremely offended and felt that it was her right as a grandmother, to send gifts, and that she would continue to do so no matter what my SIL wanted. In my case, I actually like the gifts my mother picks out for my kids, so for me this issue has never been a big deal and I have been able to ignore the strings that were probably attached. My mother always sends advent calendars and I don't particularly see this as an attempt by her to usurp my place as parent. I would be very surprised if our mothers don't believe with all their hearts that they only gives gifts out of the kindness of their hearts and I'm certain they have no awareness of their ulterior motives, which is why scolding them doesn't. If she buys the calendars again next year and you H is still no OK with it, perhaps he could say something like, "Oh, how kind of you, but we already have advent calendars for this year." And perhaps he could request that she just buy them books (you could even make a wish list on Amazon so she gets the kids of books you like) or a subscription to a children's magazines, like Pomme d'api, for instance.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thanks for the recommendation Couscous.

I don't think H would read it, it's not in his character. Maybe I could read it for him, but then my own boundary right now is to let him deal with his side of crazy, like Notwendy puts it  

H used the word scolded initially to draw me in the story  , but he said it went like like :"why did you do that? We don't need it... We already bought one for DD and DS is too young yet for this. So you can keep it." He said she fought back by saying "well take it for yourself then, what an I supposed to do with that?" And he said he answered : "I don't know but it is your problem to deal with. Next time, before buying something, check in with us." He might have had an irritated voice, but I highly doubt he actually "scolded her". He merely stood up and to him, it probably gave him an adrenaline rush, and he probably felt mean, but knowing him, he likely wasn't, and was just an impression on his part... We've all been there. I'm sure you know exactly what I am talking about : the first boundary we set and the anxiety that rises with it.

I saw H fear asking his parents, who were over for a visit, when they would leave... They would come stay at our house, and not told us for how long. They would stay weeks at a time, and I'd push H to ask them when they were leaving because this was unacceptable ! Took him a lot to confront them everytime.

Talking with his father is actually a way to stay OUT of the drama triangle. That's how it is in his family... They are only men with her being the only female, and they were brought up to "take care of mom". So it isn't triangulation as much as : "when you see her buy these things, can you remind her not to? To check in with us first?" He sees them as one entity, and in a certain sense, he is right to see them this way.

FIL doesn't say anything when MIL crosses boundaries, but we can all see he is uncomfortable with it. Once, she made him come unannounced at my house to bring us food. My son was sick and projectile vomiting everywhere. I wrote her back it wasn't a good time but FIL arrived a few minutes later. I told him : "thank you but this is really not a good time right now." And he said :"I am so sorry, we will see you soon". And he left right away. He got it. MIL just stays planted there and keeps on talking and she would have asked to see the children, what is going on? Can we go buy something for you? When all you want if for her to leave. But she never gets the message.

It's control disguised as care, and gift giving. And she is a victim everytime someone sets a boundary. There is NO WAY around that. We well always be the persecutors in her world, because that's what everyone seems to be for her, whenever they don't do what she wants.

She can be the sweetest person, as long as you let her do whatever she wants. The second you stand up, she starts with mean comments, boundary invasion and triangulation.

I trust him to find his own way on his journey. I think my role is to support him, and stay out of his way. I certainly don't want to guiltrip him for showing irritation or anger. It's a process. One he will figure out in time.

As for the gifts... Like I said, it wasn't the gifts themselves : but the pattern behind the gift. I truly think she worked on triangulating him against me when he went there...about Christmas, about food, about the children.. and he snapped over the calendars. Because from the stories he told me, he often had to answer her : "I will check with Riverwolf and we will get back to you." .. "No mom, riverwolf has been cooking for a long time, I am pretty sure she knows how to prepare that meal.", "No Mom, thanks, but we don't need decorstions, Riverwolf will buy what she likes, it's her area and her house." But she just doesn't stop invading and trying to grab control... The calendars were an excuse for boundary setting :"check in with us before buying stuff for the children."

Also, we already tried requesting specific gifts like books, I even once told her :" if it's important to you that they have swimming class, I invite you to gift them one and take them with you" after she told me :"you will put them in a swimming class". It was the last I heard of it...

The problem is, like I think Methuen said, that she is a steam roller.

I am actually quite proud of the way H is handling it so far. It shows that he's been away for so long. He is fair in his boundaries, and he still visit them. He doesn't ruminate like I would, and he consistently showed up for me and to protect our family's limits since I stopped going there by myself.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I guess the big issue is : I am aware my children are her grandchildren, that she loves them, and that she wants to be a part of their life.

I honestly understand that, and I tried to include her. For more than 8 months, I went there every week, once or twice a week to visit. I invited them over for coffee, I included them. But she became controlling and manipulative. The more I invited her out of kindness, the more she started to act as a second mother to them... But not a safe one.

She would do things behind my back, she would scoff at my stories, gives me backhanded compliment. Once she asked me how things were going with H. I was starting to see the big picture at that point and I realized this question was out of boundaries. I certainly would never display any information on my relationship with H to his mother. I realized right away she would use this information against me later on. And it struck me... How H always says : Information is power. That's how he was raised. She would get in, get info, and use it against him later or tell everyone and shame him. That's what she does.

So I cut back.

I understand, for her, its out of love for our children. But it is deeply unhealthy to give her unlimited attendance to them and to feed her clingyness. I swear she uses sugar to lure them in, then she asked them questions about us, she intrudes, she judges. She is simply not a safe person, especially not for me, the daughter in law. So I am now staying at a safe distance.

The problem with the Karpman Triangle is that almost all human interactions are based on it.  A triangle can be absolutely normal, the problem is not the triangle, it's the drama, the rumination, the emotional engagement. Any boundary setting will feel like persecution to the person on the receiving end. And as much as I like looking at myself for growth, at some point, we have to stop looking for perfection in ourselves, and to the contrary, accept that we are humans.

It's awkward to become an adult, and not be treated as such by our parents. FIL understands that dynamic has changed. That his sons are grown. Not MIL. She still thinks she holds power over them when she doesn't. And she needs to learn that.

[zachira]

Great Thread!
I question the thought that MIL does things out of love for her grandchildren. Perhaps another explanation is that MIL is biologically attached to her grandchildren. When my NPD sister had children, I was really surprised at how special they were to me and that I felt an attachment to them like no other children. This is in spite of the fact that I have had very little contact with them. I do think the biological connection to biological close family is very strong, and does not necessarily mean there is a loving connection. With dysfunctional people, it seems the biological connection can be more about possesion and control than genuine love for family members.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Great Thread!
I question the thought that MIL does things out of love for her grandchildren. Perhaps another explanation is that MIL is biologically attached to her grandchildren. When my NPD sister had children, I was really surprised at how special they were to me and that I felt an attachment to them like no other children. This is in spite of the fact that I have had very little contact with them. I do think the biological connection to biological close family is very strong, and does not necessarily mean there is a loving connection. With dysfunctional people, it seems the biological connection can be more about possesion and control than genuine love for family members.

Zacchira,

This is a great point.

I often wonder about Love, with a bit L... And I do think healthy Love is not clingy.

So there might be a biological component at play here, you are right.