She wants to know "what she did"

[InPurgatory]

Yesterday I spent Thanksgiving at my brother's (SG) home with his family and my uBPD elderly mom.  I haven't spoken to her since my Dad's funeral in July after she painted me black and had a meltdown, and I decided that I really couldn't be in contact with her right now.  My brother had asked if it was okay to invite her as well as me, and I agreed, thinking that she was less likely to dysregulate with other people around, especially my nephews and their girlfriends.  She told him that the primary reason she wanted to come was so she could talk to me (not visit with family), so I had some idea that it was going to be more challenging than I had hoped. 

For the better part of the day, she acted super sweet because others were around (hugs and using my childhood pet name) and kept asking me when I was going to come down and visit her.  I gave her the same basic answer each time, that it wouldn't be until after Christmas when my other brother (GC) was coming to visit from out of state.  Then she started trying to corner me with questions about what I wanted from my Dad's things.  I had already told her about the only item I wanted, but she kept insisting that I needed to come down and go through all the other stuff.

At some point, I was having a quiet conversation with my youngest nephew, and she came up and inserted herself between us and started asking me again about when I was going to visit and trying to engage me on items of my Dad's.  I gave her the same answers and resumed my conversation with nephew.  This apparently set her off and she went off into another room by herself and stayed there for the next hour or so until I got ready to leave.  I went to say goodbye to her and this was the first time all day that we were alone without others around us to be a buffer.

She immediately started crying (waif) and said she could tell that I was mad at her and didn't love her anymore and she wanted me to tell her what she had done wrong.  Well, thanks to much advice here and having prepared myself, I didn't take that bait!  I probably could have handled it better, but I told her that I wasn't angry with her (I'm not) and that I would see her after Christmas.  At this point, she is clinging to my arm and suddenly she becomes angry rather than sad, and she starts accusing me of "changing my personality" and saying that there's something wrong with me.  I just said goodbye and left.  My brother later told me that she sat alone for another couple of hours until my sister-in-law managed to get her to come out and help with decorations.

I really just come here to share because I know that you all "get it".  I'm lucky that I have supportive siblings, especially because I know others are struggling with disordered parents on their own.  Today I'm decompressing and trying to calm the anxiety that arises every time I have to deal with her, but I'm feeling like it went as well as could be expected on my part at least.  I know I could probably have responded to her better, but it's hard in the moment.  I'm grateful for all the insight and wisdom that I pick up from this forum.  Without you, this would be much more difficult.

[zachira]

You really did a great job of dealing with your mother on Thanksgiving. Of course, there are some uncomfortable feelings about being treated the way you were by her, because after all she is your mother. With people who are not close relatives, especially not a mother, we can often walk away and not have any lingering unhappy feelings. You are far from alone in having a mother with BPD use material things as a way to get her children to interact with her. My mother with BPD never stopped talking about all the things we would get from her when she died, and as it turned out I got none of my mother's things because my siblings took them all. I also found it worked most of the time to have around people my mother cared about looking good in front of to curb her worst behaviors, though she always complained about the people being there, that she could not have more alone time with me . We are here to listen whenever you feel like reaching out, as there will be difficult moments to deal with ahead with your mother, and for most of us with a mother with BPD, we just want to move on after uncomfortable contact with our mother, as we can't change her, only our responses to how she behaves.

[Couscous]

…she starts accusing me of "changing my personality" and saying that there's something wrong with me.

Accusations like this are very typical. It’s extremely anxiety provoking for her that you are changing and she desperately wants you to revert to your old, familiar ways. All you can do is stay the course, and either she’ll adapt to the new you, or she will cut you off — something you might even welcome. In my case, it’s actually been easier on me when family members have cut me off than it has been for me to go NC with them.

I think you did well so kudos to you for that. Over the coming days you might need to do what you can to remind yourself that there’s nothing wrong with you. I have recently discovered Jerry Wise’s YouTube channel and it has been so helpful in making sense of my family’s reactions to my changes — I highly recommend it. 

[Notwendy]

I have almost the same situation, having been painted as the villain at the time my father passed away. There was a lot of other drama as well. I didn't go NC but went LC and also have kept an emotional distance.

I know BPD mother wants to know why I have kept a distance as she has asked other people who know me about it. She knows exactly what she has done. She also does the asking me what I want and then not letting me have it when it comes to anything she has, including my father's belongings. It's as if both our mothers have the same ideas.

But the times I have gotten vulnerable and brought up things that have bothered me, she turns cruel and verbally abuse, saying things like "well you just better get over it". So she starts by acting as if she cares and if I open up, she gets mean. I don't think she actually wants to know what she did that upset me- she wants to get me to open up, be vulnerable and tell her my feelings. I won't allow that kind of "set up" again.

She did call me up a few weeks ago, crying, saying she was sorry for whatever it was - and that was awful. I would welcome a real conversation to clear the air but I know that won't happen.

It's not about the actions she did. People mess up, and issues can be resolved when people are willing to be accountable for their own behavior. It's that this kind of discussion isn't possible and trying to talk about things leads to her being abusive. It's that she doesn't tell the truth.  I can't trust her. That alone makes a relationship not possible.

I don't wish to be hurtful to her and try not to hurt her feelings, but I also don't wish to be subjected to her behavior. I don't hold on to resentment or grudges. But talking to her, telling her how I feel has not solved anything and an open honest relationship isn't possble.

[Methuen]

You managed that situation so well.  I just want to say good for you, because that takes fortitude and strength in that moment.

[Notwendy]

Yes you did well not taking the bait. "Waif" is the hardest for me. I do feel empathy for her situation, and wish we could talk it out. However, replying to such a question doesn't work out. It is what it is- an invitation to an emotional exchange, and it feels bad.

You did well to recognize this and avoid it.

[InPurgatory]

Zachira, Couscous, Notwendy, Methuen:  Thank you all for the notes of support.  I have followed along with each of your stories and the advice that you give, and that others give you, has played a huge role in helping me to shape my own response.

Couscous, thanks for the suggested videos by Jerry Wise.  I hadn't come across those before.  They look like they will be very helpful.

You are far from alone in having a mother with BPD use material things as a way to get her children to interact with her. My mother with BPD never stopped talking about all the things we would get from her when she died, and as it turned out I got none of my mother's things because my siblings took them all.

She also does the asking me what I want and then not letting me have it when it comes to anything she has, including my father's belongings. It's as if both our mothers have the same ideas.

When my mom started bringing up items of my dad's, at first it seemed more like a ploy to get me to come down to visit, and I'm sure that's part of it.  My (SG) brother has been spending a little bit of time going through the most important items and when she found out that he was actually communicating with me real-time to ask about certain items, she got upset.  Originally, he was going to bring back a couple of small items for me and my daughter (he lives halfway between me and Mom) and I would have gotten them a couple of days ago, but that didn't happen.  Instead, she kept trying to convince me that I needed/wanted more of Dad's stuff.  When I tell her that I'm actually good with not taking any more, she acts like I'm refusing a gift from her. I'm guessing that she wants me to want something that she has.

I know BPD mother wants to know why I have kept a distance as she has asked other people who know me about it. She knows exactly what she has done.

But the times I have gotten vulnerable and brought up things that have bothered me, she turns cruel and verbally abuse, saying things like "well you just better get over it". So she starts by acting as if she cares and if I open up, she gets mean. I don't think she actually wants to know what she did that upset me- she wants to get me to open up, be vulnerable and tell her my feelings. I won't allow that kind of "set up" again.

She did call me up a few weeks ago, crying, saying she was sorry for whatever it was - and that was awful. I would welcome a real conversation to clear the air but I know that won't happen.

It's not about the actions she did. People mess up, and issues can be resolved when people are willing to be accountable for their own behavior. It's that this kind of discussion isn't possible and trying to talk about things leads to her being abusive. It's that she doesn't tell the truth.  I can't trust her. That alone makes a relationship not possible.

I don't wish to be hurtful to her and try not to hurt her feelings, but I also don't wish to be subjected to her behavior. I don't hold on to resentment or grudges. But talking to her, telling her how I feel has not solved anything and an open honest relationship isn't possble.

This.  Exactly.  Over the years (before I found this group), I would attempt to work through our relationship in a "normal" way, not realizing that nothing about this is normal.  And we would repeat the same cycles over and over, and I perpetually felt like the problems were my fault.  My brothers and I always gave in to her.  In the past few years, with the help of therapy and this group, I started holding my ground more and this upset the balance.  Many of the criticisms that are hurled my way (and said to others) are about how I have "changed", that I am "disrespectful" (because I won't agree with her), that there's something wrong with me.  It is distressing to her that I no longer just accept whatever she says.

Yes you did well not taking the bait. "Waif" is the hardest for me. I do feel empathy for her situation, and wish we could talk it out. However, replying to such a question doesn't work out. It is what it is- an invitation to an emotional exchange, and it feels bad.

You did well to recognize this and avoid it.

Yes, thanks to all of you, I had rehearsed a few responses in my head, but most of them involved a "queen" (or "witch") scenario because those have been the primary reactions.  "Waif" isn't her usual behavior, but I'm guessing it served her better in the company of other people whose judgment she values (my nephews/her grandsons), so it threw me a little.  Of course, it quickly turned angry when she didn't get the response she wanted from me. 

Again, thank you all for the hugs and support. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

Instead, she kept trying to convince me that I needed/wanted more of Dad's stuff.  When I tell her that I'm actually good with not taking any more, she acts like I'm refusing a gift from her. I'm guessing that she wants me to want something that she has.

Hi InPurgatory,

Just wanted to join the others in validating your approach. It seems like you were able to greyrock her attempts to pull you in and you stood firms in your boundaries. I am grateful that you have this kind of support from your scapegoat brother, that they didn't cast you out, sometimes I've seen happen often from other stories on this forum. Like you, my brothers have mostly stayed out of my business, and they still talk to me and validate my need for healing and taking time off my relationship with our mothers. Part of them tries to pull me back it, but mostly, they understand. And I think this plays a huge part in decreasing my guilt of being no contact.

I wonder what it is about BPD and things... My mother is BPD, mostly Queen/Wife since I've hit adulthood, while she used to have a lot of Witch when I was younger. I think the Witch went away as her physical power decreased over me, as I became taller and stronger than she is.

I find that her usual startup role on the Karpman Triangle is Savior (in the end, like every triangle, she always end up in victim, but she always start them in savior mode). She wants to do all those things for me, give me things, give me food, give me clothes, come help me clean, paint...and I learned, over time, that the more independant I could be, the safer I would feel. So I started refusing her help, or minimizing it...I would say: "If you want to help, ok, but I can manage on my own." And she hated it. That was a way for me to cut the strings attached to her help, and to her, it felt like rejection.

She sent me an email not too long ago where she said : I break everything she gives me.
The savior turned victim.

And it's a strange position to operate from for us. I don't think it is very comon than BPD wants their children weak and needy. But that's our my mother operated. The more lost I am, the more sad I am, the more she can feel like a Savior and that's what she wants to be. My brother has no issues acting like a lost child with her, and he has a good relationship with her.

Whereas for me, I don't like that role. And because I act more independant and stronger, I am always defaulted to the persecutor while she moves from Savior to Victim. With my brother, he is victim and her Savior, and they rarely fight...

Anyway... I don't know if this will resonate with you. Do you think your mother always has this initial Savior start-up position? Do you think that's why she focus so much on you needing something from her?

[Methuen]

I find that her usual startup role on the Karpman Triangle is Savior (in the end, like every triangle, she always end up in victim, but she always start them in savior mode). She wants to do all those things for me, give me things, give me food, give me clothes, come help me clean, paint...and I learned, over time, that the more independant I could be, the safer I would feel. So I started refusing her help, or minimizing it...I would say: "If you want to help, ok, but I can manage on my own." And she hated it. That was a way for me to cut the strings attached to her help, and to her, it felt like rejection.

This is a such a "direct hit" RW.  It really hits a nerve.  My mom used to be exactly like this.  Now she is too old and frail to do any more than get from one end of her house to the other with her walker.  But when she was younger and "able", she "needed to be needed".  One of my previous "T's" even suggested that finding little ways to help her "feel needed" could improve the relationship.  I struggled a lot with that, because whatever she did (eg cook meals or watch the kids) came with strings attached and got thrown in my face like hot oil at some later time.  On the other hand, not finding ways to "make her feel needed" was interpreted as me not loving her.  It's the classic "lose-lose". For example, one time early in the marriage when H and I were in the process of looking for and buying our first house, she handed us a $10,000 cheque to help with a downpayment.  We said thanks, but no thanks.  OMG.  That led to an emotional dysregulation that lasted a month or even months, and the downwind effects probably lasted a year or longer.  It's like she couldn't separate rejection of the money, from rejection of her.  She was crying.  She implied we didn't love her.  What we wanted was independence.  We wanted the pride of making our way in the world on our own steam.  Equally important, we recognized the dangers and pitfalls that would have come with accepting her money.

She took it really personally.  And it took her a LONG LONG time to get over it and forget about it in a way that let her "move on" whenever she interacted with us.  She kept bringing it up over and over...

It was horrible.

To put it in your terms, she wanted to be our savior by giving us money.  When we said no thank you, she couldn't respect our reasons or us.  She had to be a victim.  She really felt rejected.  Her thinking went something like this:  "if we loved her, how could we refuse her gift?"

When I returned to work a few months ago primarily as a way of enforcing a boundary of space and time from mother (who would easily fit into assisted living, and some even suggest complex care), she RAGED with an energy that is symbolic of the fires of H_LL that rage inside of her.  She hurled everything she could at me, because now in her "old age" when she "really needed me", I wasn't there for her "the way she was for me all my life" (her words). Wow just wow.  So everything she hurled at me was really her projections (selfishness etc etc), but if I had accepted that cheque (almost 30 years earlier) , she would have hurled that at me too.

So, to your point in the quote at the beginning of this reply, I couldn't agree with you more.

And this:  

And it's a strange position to operate from for us. I don't think it is very comon than BPD wants their children weak and needy. But that's our my mother operated.

yes yes and yes...

And when we are strong and independent, they hate us for it.  My mom has always criticized her strong, independent, and career-success acquaintances.  She doesn't cultivate friendships with those people.  She talks about them in condescending ways.  Instead she fosters friendships with caregiver and people pleasing types who will look after her.  So when I went back to work, she hurled that at me too, - that all I cared about was my career, and not about her.  In reality, returning to work (out of retirement) was my escape from her. 

[Couscous]

In reality, returning to work (out of retirement) was my escape from her.  

Oh no! It really saddens me to hear another report of someone on this board doing this. You deserve to live your life as you wish and retire!

I think all of us would be well served by seeing family therapists who seem to be the only school of psychology that really gets enmeshment dynamics.

I have been learning a whole lot about this subject from Ken Adams videos and interviews, and here is one that is short and sweet that sums up the problem of enmeshment quite nicely: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2QcH8Mb6HM

[Methuen]

Couscous that video hits he nail on the head.  It’s a good find and I’ll be looking into Ken Adams some more.  

Thanks for sharing it.

[Notwendy]

I will check out that video in a bit-

My mother doesn't take Savior/Rescuer role-  She mostly wants us to be lowly and subservient to her wishes. Queen seems to be her predominant role but more like a dictator. If you don't comply- then it's punitive Witch. Waif is the persona she has if Witch doesn't work, but Witch has worked most of the time for her family as we have been fearful of her. With others, I think there's more waif.

My mother is not generous with me with money or any gifts so there's no rescuing there. She is generous with others but it's not as a savior/rescuer- it's control/manipulation. I don't accept anything from her as I don't want to feel obligated to her but also she doesn't offer any so it's not an issue.

The dynamics in our family are that- the doing for others goes one way.- to her.  Any expectations or requests from her are met with indignation from her, even if we ask a question. So she doesn't want weakness from her family so she can be a savior, she wants to have us belittled, and she verbally does that as well.