Toxic Enablers

[zachira]

How harshly we judge others, is a reflection of how we feel about ourselves deep down inside. I am getting better at not being so upset about how I get mistreated by people who really don't even know me or care to know how I feel, and then moving on, which is a sign that I am starting to heal. For me, the biggest challenge is not to be so angry with and hurt by the flying monkeys, or we could say toxic enablers, which sounds more judgemental.

[zachira]

What I am happy to share is I am suddenly feeling relieved to be distancing myself from the flying monkeys. It is painful and hurts deeply as most of these people are my closest family members, yet being around them most of the time ends up with me experiencing more cycles of abuse of either me or other family members. Some of the abuse is criminal. Since I was a child, I was horrified by how my parents went on and on criticizing their scapegoated siblings, who did everything to be loved by the family, and instead were scapegoated even when they went overboard to be kind and generous. I am not so enmeshed as I was. I am starting to enjoy healthier people and feel worthy of their friendships. I will be alone for the holidays, yet not sad, as what I have wanted for so long, to be comfortable in my own skin most of the time, is starting to happen, and I am feeling pretty good most of the time.

[Couscous]

This is a projection though, ain't it?

If you mean that I could projecting my own “shadow” onto Dr Ramani, I can assure you that this is not the case. While I do have many codependent tendencies, fortunately approval seeking and people-pleasing are not behaviors I typically engage in. If anything, I have the opposite problem…  

In the past I never would have attended an event like that due to my social anxiety, unless my friend would have punished me in some way for not going. Then I would have gone to avoid abandonment. Today, as a recovering codependent, I would make sure to not have friends like that in the first place.

But if the event had been in my friend’s honor, like say, a graduation party, then in a case like that I would attend out of love, even though it would not have been my preference. But I would certainly not stay long if I had to go alone, even if it meant missing dessert.

But from how Dr Ramani described her friend’s event, it did not sound like the kind of event that would have compelled her to attend out of love. Her friend was the co-host, so that means it wasn’t in her honor, and as such, Dr Ramani’s desire to be supportive and empathic seems like it was misplaced.

[Riv3rW0lf]

If you mean that I could projecting my own “shadow” onto Dr Ramani, I can assure you that this is not the case. While I do have many codependent tendencies, fortunately approval seeking and people-pleasing are not behaviors I typically engage in. If anything, I have the opposite problem…  

In the past I never would have attended an event like that due to my social anxiety, unless my friend would have punished me in some way for not going. Then I would have gone to avoid abandonment. Today, as a recovering codependent, I would make sure to not have friends like that in the first place.

But if the event had been in my friend’s honor, like say, a graduation party, then in a case like that I would attend out of love, even though it would not have been my preference. But I would certainly not stay long if I had to go alone, even if it meant missing dessert.

But from how Dr Ramani described her friend’s event, it did not sound like the kind of event that would have compelled her to attend out of love. Her friend was the co-host, so that means it wasn’t in her honor, and as such, Dr Ramani’s desire to be supportive and empathic seems like it was misplaced.

I will just get straight to the point then...

Let's recap about what we know :
- Dr. Ramani attended an event for a friend she had known for a long time. She didn't know anyone there, but her friend, who she describes as a sweet, nice person. And she felt good going there for her.
- People sneered at her. They weren't nice.
- One of her friend's friends insulted Dr. Ramani during the public event.
- Dr. Ramani asked what she did wrong to the insulting person.
- Dr. Ramani's friend called her insulting friend "silly", didn't say anything.
- Dr. Ramani's stayed longer than she "should have", namely she stayed for dessert.
- She still left early, before the end of the event.
- Called a friend she thought were safe to help her get back to ground zero.
- Refused to attend another event, and told her friend some excuses for it instead of the truth.

From this, you went on to say she had "codependent blindspots", That she felt bad because "she had gone for all the bad reasons", that she's either codependent or she has "a hell of sweet tooth ".

Let's turn that another way... Here's a story of mine :
- My neighbors were outside with their kids the same age my daughter is. She wanted to go. I know it is good for her to be with kids her age, spend time outside playing. I really didn't feel like talking with my neighbors, but it was the good thing to do for my daughter, whom I love.
- I went outside with her (she is still too young to go by herself). Didn't much engage with the neighbors, but still, kinda had to be civil, I mean... we are neighbors.
- One of them starts picking on me.
- Should I have left?
- Well, I didn't. My daughter was very happy playing with her friends. And I am an adult: I can defend myself.
- I was civil. The picking didn't really stop. I didn't laugh, I returned a few comments, but mostly, kept to myself, and decided to focus on the children.
- The guy doesn't stop. No one is saying anything.
- I start losing my ground, I am a bit confused. Again, I am staying for daughter though, I don't want to hurt her,  because I love her. But I do end up leaving before everyone else with D, under the guise of: I have a diner to cook.
Was I codependent? Do I have blindspots because I don't wish to escalate things with someone I will see again soon? Because I wanted to provide my daughter with some time to play?

Now, you might say it's different because it was my child... But is it, really? Dr. Ramani's friend mattered to her. She is there, there are a lot of factors at play... She is a "public face", maybe she wants to keep herself steady, not lose face. Once you are there, I mean, you are there. There are A LOT of reasons to stay at an event OTHER than being codependent with the friend who invited you.

I ended up ruminating the whole thing, not because I didn't leave, also not because I went in the first place, not even because I "should have" told him to stop, or called him out (I kinda did, like Dr. Ramani, pointed out his behavior was inappropriate, but this kind of people don't much care for that, do they?)

I ended up ruminating because I was picked on for no reason. The guy was looking for a reaction. He didn't get one. So in a way, I won. But I still felt like  . It wasn't codependence though, it was me being a mother and forcing myself out of my comfort zone for someone I love, because it was the nice thing to do for D.

Staying for dessert is often the polite thing to do, in most social circles. I see Dr. Ramani's trying to be polite, might be a boundary of hers, too, not codependence, necessarily.

What I see, through your comments, is a lot of extrapolation to project codependent behaviors on the story of one person who wanted to be nice for a friend and ended up in a wolf's den, then decided to leave and not go into this den again. Being codependent would be to keep going again, and again, and trying to fix the wolf and the sheep. Dr. Ramani was not being codependent. She was viciously attacked for no apparent reason and decided not to go again and to put boundaries in place.

And when this happens (getting attacked for no reasons): we all get triggered, we all lose our footings, and we all wonder what we could have done differently. No one likes to be thrown stones by strangers, and it sometimes takes some times to realize it had nothing to do with us, and we ruminate it, because it is unfair.

If I was Dr. Ramani, I would have been deeply hurt by your comments. I trust her words when she says she was happy to go. I trust what she is conveying. And I don't see codependence. I see someone who was ambushed. Not trying to guiltrip you here. I kinda tried to convey it differently before... I still think there is projection going on on your part. You've been direct with people on here before, I am allowing myself to be direct with you right now, that this is what I saw in your comments, and because you requested more explanations on my previous question. We all project at times. I do think it is easier when it is on a "celebrity". It doesn't make it true though.

[Couscous]

Well, since Dr Ramani did ask, “Was I in my trauma-bonded self, or was I just being nice. You tell me.”, I would have no problem answering her question with my honest assessment of the situation, which is that yes, Dr Ramani, I personally that think you were in your trauma-bonded self.  

In fact, I may just write a comment to her video to that effect.  

But it’s OK, we don’t have to agree about this.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Well, since Dr Ramani did ask, “Was I in my trauma-bonded self, or was I just being nice. You tell me.”, I would have no problem answering her question with my honest assessment of the situation, which is that yes, Dr Ramani, I personally that think you were in your trauma-bonded self.  

In fact, I may just write a comment to her video to that effect.  

And there, might be just our understanding of the word that differ. From what I personally understand, "being in our trauma-bonded self" is not the same as being codependent, and having a traumatized self is not necessarily enabling either. When my neighbor attacked me, it, of course, triggered me, brought me back to a bad place. "Trauma-bonded", "C-PTSD", "being triggered", those can be/are widely different than what is generally described as being "codependent". They don't all look the same, and they are not necessarily about control, nor about being inauthentic, nor about being a rescuer... You can be traumatized, triggered, and still be authentic and not try to control someone else.

I have a "trauma-bonded self" that shows up sometimes, and not with people I am "codependent with"... I am actually not very codependent, more of a loner like you. But this "traumatized self" just "resurfaces". Which is exactly why I don't like the identification of "being codependent". It is much more complex than that.

Also... Interestingly, the fawning response is the most natural response for most socialized, emotionally mature humans (especially women), and a lot of psychologists actually don't recognize it as a reaction under threat because of that.

[Couscous]

One of them starts picking on me.
- Should I have left?

Not necessarily at this point.

- I was civil. The picking didn't really stop. I didn't laugh, I returned a few comments, but mostly, kept to myself, and decided to focus on the children.

As long as you weren’t getting too activated by this point I think this was a good move.

The guy doesn't stop. No one is saying anything.
- I start losing my ground, I am a bit confused. Again, I am staying for daughter though, I don't want to hurt her,  because I love her.

At this point I think it was the loving thing to do to leave, both for you, and for your D. It is more important for your D to have an emotionally regulated mother than it is to play a few extra minutes with other children. She had some time to play, and perhaps your neighbor will take the hint that his behavior was not acceptable, and maybe he will be on better behavior in future. I also think you were a good role-model for your D to see that you don’t accept put-downs from chauvinistic men.

Had you stayed beyond this point though, even out of love for your D, I would have wondered if there could be some self-sacrificing going on since there probably are other ways for you to meet your D’s socialization needs that don’t entail your needing to tolerate mean-spirited behavior. Of course as parents we are required to make some sacrifices at times, but we really shouldn’t make it a habit of meeting our children’s needs at our own expense. Parenting isn’t supposed to be a zero-sum game, and I think it is important that we don’t go to the opposite extreme of our mothers and become martyrs in the name of being loving.

[Notwendy]

I think we do things for children that we may not do for adults. Adults are not usually potential "victims" on the Karpman triangle because they have choices, and are responsible for themselves. Children are dependent on parents. They don't always have choices.  Riv3rW0lf - your choice to stay or leave the play situation would impact your D either way- she didn't have the choice.

I think a key to whether or not we are acting from a co-dependent place is our feelings. Do we feel resentment towards the person we are doing something for, or putting ourselves out for? You went to the play date for your D, stayed for your D. Did you feel resentment towards her? Probably not. The neighbor was being a jerk, but he wasn't the reason you stayed.

With Dr. Ramani- she went to the party to be social and supportive of her friend. Another friend was being a jerk. I think it was when the friend enabled the situation that Dr. Ramani began to feel differently about her. Dr. Ramani now has new information about that friend- and now has a decision to make about how much she wants to trust that friendship. What she decides isn't so much about the decision is that she makes it and owns it.

One aspect of co-dependency is that people who are co-dependent are not happy. If we do something nice for someone, or if we choose to put up with something- we usually don't feel badly about it. Co-dependents are taking a role on the Karpan triangle. They may start as rescuers but end up feeling like victims. The focus is on the other person. "She did this, he did that" not on their own actions. One reason I accepted that possibility was that, I was the one who went to counseling. I was not happy. It was the counselor who used the term and suggested 12 step groups.

I have another example of someone being angry at me. I was at work and there was a stressful situation - work related. I happened to accidentally walk in on some people talking about it. I stopped to listen since I could tell it wasn't a personal conversation and it was something I needed to know too. I then asked a question and a co-worker snapped at me.

I recognized my own reaction to an angry co-worker and left the room to go calm down. I then went through the situation thinking of all the ways I must have messed up for this to happen.

Meanwhile, the co-worker calms down and feels badly about snapping at me and approaches me later to apologize. We talk about it and it turns out that she assumed I walked in for the purpose of interrupting her and she was stressed over the situation. Seems she has her own emotional reactions to that. But we both talk it out, smooth out this misunderstanding, and own our own behavior.

It's the last part that doesn't seem to happen between disordered people. I think it's possible that without the work on co-dependency, I may have felt more like a victim on the triangle in this situation, maybe it would have gone another way. We all can act out under stress- seems she did, but she owned her behavior and apologized which people with PD's don't usually do. It's not that we never mess up or have a default behavior but we can learn to see ourselves doing it, and consciously change it if we choose.

I think Dr. Ramani's story would be different if she didn't have some self awareness of what happened. It may have been from victim perspective- " I went to that party and that b--was mean to me and my friend was mean to me too and all I was doing was being nice" but it was more of an "oops I did it again" story and what to do differently next time.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Had you stayed beyond this point though, even out of love for your D, I would have wondered if there could be some self-sacrificing going on since there probably are other ways for you to meet your D’s socialization needs that don’t entail your needing to tolerate mean-spirited behavior. Of course as parents we are required to make some sacrifices at times, but we really shouldn’t make it a habit of meeting our children’s needs at our own expense. Parenting isn’t supposed to be a zero-sum game, and I think it is important that we don’t go to the opposite extreme of our mothers and become martyrs in the name of being loving.

Could have been self-sacrifice, but truth be told, I remember I chose to stay to try and see if I could ground myself back while still in the presence of a "threat". Because this is one of the skills I am trying to develop. I was acutely aware of what was happening within me and around me, and I chose to use the situation to work on myself. And to some extent, it did work, and this made me happy about my healing work. My reaction then was much more controlled than it would have been two years ago.

I actually think this neighbor is a great training ground to desensitize myself and to develop feeling safe within myself, even when someone isn't "safe".  It's a good training ground to try different strategies and how they work for me. Because at the end of the day : he is just a neighbor, he is not family, not a friend, not anyone I care about. Just some random dude who thinks it ok to pick on people he barely knows.

Notwendy,

I've read a bit on codependency since I've seen it mentionned on here many times. I honestly don't think it applies to me. I think I am well within a healthy range when it comes to dealing with issues at home, and being authentic with H and with my children. I now think it is actually a normal part of being human to not enjoy direct confrontation : but I often go in anyway. We fight, and we solve our fights. We are honest with one another. We aren't perfect, but the both of us together seem to approximate someone "normal".

Do I over function at times? Sure. But I am genuinely satisfied with my life right now, and incredibly grateful that I got here. 

My husband often says I have to relax, I work too much. But what if overfunctionning, and working, actually makes me happy? What if it doesn't get in the way of playing with my kids, being silly with them and taking time off when I need it? What if my overfunctionning is actually who I am?

Might be what I became following certain traumas, but it doesn't make it bad, as long as I can identify when I slip from happy to triggered, and as long as I allow myself a safe space to be tired, which I do. Overfunctionning (whatever that is, truly, because OTHERS seem to say I overfunction, when I just feel I am going at normal pace, doing what I need to do) is not necessarily a bad thing. Just like codependent behaviors are not necessarily bad things either. A lot of those are natural responses to life events.

There are A LOT of psychology books today, and A LOT of theories, forum, videos, blogs... And they are all based on this idea of the "normal person", as if this person even existed. And anything that doesn't match our expectations of what should be normal, must be a problem. ... Well... Not always. It is often just life and someone trying to navigate it. The choices might not always be the best ones on the moment, but it doesn't necessarily warrant a diagnosis.

Sometimes, the diagnosis works for the person, and it's ok, I get that too. You mostly talk about yourself when you write on here, and I respect that. You talk about your experience, and then other can decide if it works for them or not, based on what you share. And I do think this is the right way to approach this.

I think, in matters of the head and heart, we have to be mindful of how we say things, because most of what we will see is terribly biased by who we are and what we have been through. It doesn't mean we are wrong, nor that we shouldn't offer our knowledge and wisdom, but I do think there are gentle ways to do it, and ways that will only put people that needs support and help off. 

[Notwendy]

Riv3rW0lf-

It may not be about you at all. On my part, I wasn't happy, to the point of seeking out counseling. I think that's a main difference. If it's not an issue for you, then it's not. For me, I felt I needed to make a change.

That's the point I was trying to make. Co-dependent behavior causes distress for the person. People may over function at times for different reasons, but if they aren't distressed over it, they'd not seek help.

I don't feel resentful doing things for children, even if it's overfunctioning, or even at work sometimes if the job needs to be done but having learned that if I begin to feel too much resentment- I may be crossing the line has helped me to learn where that line is for me. I think it's an individual situation- where that "line" is.

If you are feeling OK with what you are doing- that's a significant difference.

[Couscous]

You talk about your experience, and then other can decide if it works for them or not, based on what you share. And I do think this is the right way to approach this.

This is so interesting, because for me, an indirect approach actually doesn’t work. If I have a blindspot then I am literally blind to my behavior, so I need, and appreciate, a more direct approach, even if I disagree with the other person’s assessment. But maybe it’s a cultural thing. As they say, different strokes for different folks.

To me the entire purpose of this message board is for us to help each other address our blindspots since this is not something one can do on one’s own, even if the truth may be hard to hear at times. But am willing to admit that I may be in the minority.

I am the first to admit that I am heavily biased in favor of family systems theory and Transactional Analysis and quite skeptical of traditional psychology. It could be because my first exposure to psychology was through Non-violent Communication which departs from traditional psychology in a major ways, as does family systems theory and TA. But I have been able to make some serious changes in my relationships with some of my family members, and just today my sister, who has been shunning me for the last 2 years, called me and we, shockingly, actually had a nice chat. I have also been able to reconcile with one of my BPD brothers. I also have “unmeshed” from my father, although I still have a long ways to go with respect to my mother and other brother.

[Riv3rW0lf]

To me the entire purpose of this message board is for us to help each other address our blindspots since this is not something one can do on one’s own, even if the truth may be hard to hear at times. But am willing to admit that I may be in the minority.

Maybe not.

You know, I don't think you truly said anything wrong, if anything, I am on the other side of a phone, trying to read sentences that might be read various ways by various persons. A good example is me reading all the comments of FormFlyers with the voice of Sam Elliott since I know he has an "epic mustach".

Maybe some turn of sentences seems very blunt to me, mainly because they don't seem to leave much room to something else? Like "A sure sign she went for all the wrong reasons." When disagreeing with a statement that is followed by this, it's like I feel put in front is a truth I don't agree with...and if I want to open it up, it then feels like "confrontation".

This is all projection on my part though, I see that now.

At the end of the day :this is a forum, and I am reading someone else, on the other side of their phone. So truly, the only thing I can see is myself, right?

I guess, I am triggered by those kind of sentences, and maybe I have to figure out why. Pretty sure it has to do with my conspiracist father who's words is always truth. There is never much place in disagreeing with him.

So I would officially like to tell you I am sorry, Couscous. I don't think you did anything wrong, nor even said anything wrong. I know, because you are here, that you come from a very sweet place in your heart, wanting to help people. And it was truly never about you.

In the end : I just disagreed with your views in the video, and got anxious at the idea of stating it, because from some sentences in your text, I got the impression there wasn't any place for other views. This is me though.

If you find a lot of people react this way overtime, maybe this could be part of why, but if most people around you don't mind it, then you have nothing to modify, and I will deal with my own triggers ! Fell off my bike, again  

[Couscous]

RW, apology accepted.  Have a wonderful Christmas.