Prince Harry

[zachira]

I keep reading about what is in Prince Harry's book and people's comments about him. I have no plans to read the book. I feel like he was chosen to be the scapegoat of the family. None of the spares seem to have done well including Princess Margaret and Prince Andrew. On one hand, I see how unfairly he was treated with his brother chosen to be heir to the throne. On the other hand, I am uncomfortable with some of his disclosures; some of them seem to be lies or at least gross distortions of the truth. I also think his wife is a text book narcissist. I know how harshly I have been judged for going low contact with my disordered family members and how anything negative I say about them immediately gets shot down by the disordered family members and their flying monkeys. I have mixed feelings about family loyalty. Prince Harry seems like he has CPTSD. What do you think?

[Couscous]

Considering that Diana probably had BPD it would not be at all surprising for Harry to have developed Cptsd, and would also potentially explain why he married a highly narcissistic woman.

[zachira]

Couscous,
I agree with you.

[Turkish]

William as eldest is the next successor. It is what it is and has been for centuries, not unfair.

[Notwendy]

I agree, Turkish- this was known all along that William was first in line.

I don't follow this family that closely but see the "tabloid" style news and considering the tabloids like drama, it's hard to know the whole of it. Still, I think it's possible to see some behaviors and wonder about them.

To Diana's defense- while she may have brought some of her own issues into the marriage, I think she was exploited. Charles didn't love her and loved Camilla, but Camilla didn't fit the requirement for Charles to sire heirs to the throne. Diana was 19  and once married, knew her husband loved someone else. If she had any emotional issues, something like that would have pushed her to more of them.

That's what her two boys grew up with and then they also lost Diana. Surely this had some emotional impact on them.

William grows up knowing he's first in line for the throne, and chooses the perfect partner to do this with- Kate- who is beautiful, elegant, and follows the rules of the royal family and seems to be loved and admired by the British people.

How could Harry distinguish himself if he wanted to? If he also followed the rules, married someone the royal family deemed appropriate, stayed out of the tabloids, it's possible he'd feel invisible.

So he had to do something different I guess and it created a scandal but now, he's got a Netflix series, a book, an interview with Oprah for airing the royal family's dirty laundry and maybe even some fictional scandals. The public loves drama. He's achieved his own kind of fame. He's also found a partner to join him in this- Meghan, also beautiful, already in the public eye.

We talk about the 3 roles in the drama triangle and how the rescuer/victim bond seems to stabilize a dysfunctional relationship. Whatever issues the two of them brought into their marriage, they seem to have aligned together against this common "persecutor"- how poorly the royal family has treated them. Likely there's some truth to some of this but also some is possibly their perception. We have no way to know what is what. Harry seems to have jumped into rescuer role when it comes to aligning with Meghan over who may have mistreated her. Meghan's role as rescuing Harry is that she seems to have been instrumental in Harry separating himself from that family who has allegedly mistreated him.

[madeline7]

Interesting topic. I am not a follower of all things royal, but this has certainly caught my attention by putting a dysfunctional family in the spotlight. My reaction to all of this is that Harry is assuming the rescuer role with Meghan and they are both playing victims. They have been caught in several "lies", yet it is always someone else's fault. It feels to me that Meghan is playing the part of my disordered Mom (laying on the floor crying because Kate was upset that the dress didn't fit Charlotte), and Harry is my enabler Dad (telling and re telling the story over and over). I'm triggered when I hear what I feel is Harry mirroring her moods, being Meghan's megaphone. He reminds me of my Dad. I worry for their children.

[zachira]

Yes, the Karpman Triangle is playing out here.

Notwendy,
It makes sense that Harry would feel invisible and completely overshadowed by Prince William.

Madeline7,
I am also deeply disturbed by Harry being a megaphone for Meghan and falling for her lies. So many times, when Harry is speaking, people comment that it is really Meghan talking through him. I am also reminded of my father and other family members who defend the abuse of others to be on the good side of the perpetrators.

Does Harry possibly have BPD like his mother?

I also see a dynamic playing out here in which one partner isolates the other from their family, which is often seen in abusive relationships.

So many people have said that Meghan is a narcissist, and will leave Harry when he is no longer useful to her, as she has done with her ex husband, friends, and family.

As for myself, I am still a work in progress learning how to be a person in my own right, and to give up some of the ways in which I behave like my family members. Do I have the right to judge Harry? I have struggled with boundaries and what to tell people about my family. I am totally comfortable disliking Meghan as she seems to be a textbook narcissist, as I have said before.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It makes sense that Harry would feel invisible and completely overshadowed by Prince William.

This is something Elizabeth's sister dealt with too. I thought the Netflix series did a great job in portraying some of the events in the royal family's life and how they had to adapt to the weight of the crown, in a time where it simply doesn't belong anymore. The whole goal of Elizabeth was to maintain the monarchy, they are basically "decoration pieces". The whole of their "power" lies in how the public perceives them, the rest is just decorum... So their whole lives revolved around this perfect image that the queen worked to maintain to "keep the crown alive", exerting control on the members of her family to maintain this image. It seems like some kind of narcissism, but then the queen herself carried this weight, it felt like it has much more to do with responsibility than narcissism.

Diana's call for attention was not well perceived by the crown, which objective was to stay under the radar as much as possible, that's my reading of it anyway. Even Charles and the Queen did not see eyes to eyes in how to keep the monarchy alive.The more the royal family meddles in public affairs and openly discusses their views and their life, the more "human" they become, and the more power they lose in the public eyes. They become just another rich family. The Queen knew that; staying under the radar and NOT sharing her personal opinions were her ways to survive.

Other members of the family struggled with this need to keep in with the crown's values in a narcissistic societies. They wanted fame, they wanted to use their power, while the queen wanted to remain impartial and under the radar...

I think with the Queen's aging and death, the whole family imploded on itself as their narcissism was less and less kept in check.

And it does greatly sucked for the queen's sister who was, in the end, deprived of being with the man she loved because he wasn't "good enough for the crown". Same with Charles and Camilla... Their life is a tragedy really, and Harry is acting it out, the same way his mother did in her time, the same way the uncle of Elizabeth did in his time...

That's my reading of it anyway... He certainly is not the first scapegoat of the Crown, he does however live in an era where shouting your story and being heard by the whole world is easier... I wouldn't trust him, just like I wouldn't trust them. They evolved in a surreal context completely disconnected from "real life struggles" and are all entitled as hell... 

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Great analysis. Yes, a profoundly narcissistic family.

Queen Elizabeth was a terrible mother: distant, not directly involved in raising her children most of the time, and not emotionally present with her children. It seems the youngest one Prince Edward is healthier than the others. I felt sad when Prince Harry talked about how King Charles has a teddy bear that he always keeps with him since his lonely childhood.

How often do we put people on a pedestal because we fall for the idealized public image they sell? The narcissistic family's power lies in getting everyone to go along with the image they are selling and eveyone falling in line with the most powerful people in the family. Those who don't fall in line with the family, are scapegoated and ostracized. Harry has talked about how William is a prisoner of the family because of what is expected of him. How would you like to have few choices on what your future will be or what you will be doing on a daily basis?

I feel that being the scapegoat of my family has severely crippled the choices I have had. It has taken me most of my life to realize that I was supposed to not suceed in anything, just like my scapegoated aunts and uncle, so the family would have someone to dump their insecurities on and not have to look at themselves. One of my biggest aha moments was when I helped a complete stranger who had an accident on a country road, and when the family heard the woman who I helped singing my praises, the family was furious and took it out on me. Is there anything Harry could have done, that would not have infuriated the family if he wasn't following their script?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Is there anything Harry could have done, that would not have infuriated the family if he wasn't following their script?

No, I don't think so.

[zachira]

I think it is so helpful to realize that in profoundly narcissistic families, that not following the script makes other family members angry and they punish "the rebel".

[Couscous]

I think the title of the book really says it all. He seems to have an axe to grind (and maybe needs the money). Even if everything he has said is true, I'm not too sure what good it will do the air the royal family's dirty laundry. If anything, he should glad not to be William's shoes. The Left-out Child in a narcissistic family always thinks he had it worse than his siblings, but this is so not the case.

[Notwendy]

The title is interesting "Spare" kind of does say how he feels.

I listened to some video commentaries on it- I haven't read it, but it seems that others also share the opinion that defending Meghan seems to make Harry feel important and also question if she has issues.

I wonder, if someone has NPD tendencies, if there's an appeal to being able to control someone who is more accomplished/has power. I mean, if you can control a member of the royal family, that could make you feel important/powerful.

I wonder about that with my BPD mother. She, herself, doesn't have a lot of personal power. She achieves this by controlling other people and getting them to do things for her. She also seems to enjoy it when she can manipulate people. I think this makes her feel powerful. Possibly a compensation for not feeling as competent or powerful.

There are many unconscious reasons for who we choose as a partner-they "match" us emotionally in some ways. Looking at Harry- he likely had his choice of partners. Meghan is beautiful, but there's no shortage of attractive women in Harry's social circle. Likewise, there are plenty of good looking successful men in Meghan's circle as well. So why Meghan? Perhaps it made Harry feel important as her rescuer and a chance to be the rebel in the royal family by marrying someone who has been divorced. I think that was not allowed and the reason why Charles could not have married Camilla right away.

For Meghan, if she is a narcissist, and there is anything to controlling someone in a powerful position, Harry would fit that.

[babyducks]

to me, it seems like there is more than a little hypocrisy at play here.   Harry has often bemoaned the press intruding into his private life but is willing to speak and print private information about his family?   Harry wants to leave the royal family but doesn't surrender his title of the Duke of Sussex?    Harry wants to start a new and separate life, but his new life is all about talking about his old life?

It all seems like a great deal of manufactured drama to me.

The other thing that just unsettles me, is that when Harry and Meghan are in public they seem to always be in physical contact of some sort.    I've wondered if they can get from point A to point B without holding hands.     It seems excessive and odd in ways I can't quite explain.

[Mommydoc]

I share many of the thoughts expressed here, it is hard not to feel like this is one sided and exploitative, knowing that the rest of the royal family generally refrains from commenting on things.  We are only getting Harry and Meghan’s side of things. 

I can’t get away from the childhood trauma both William and Harrry experienced, loosing their mother so young.  They were expected to exhibit stoicism and likely didn’t have the appropriate emotional support to grieve in a healthy way.  Beyond that the constraints and norms of being part of the royal family and being in the public eye, just seem horrific to me…. For all of them.  I doubt any of them are quite the saints or villains they are each made out to be, and I find what is playing out in the media very distasteful. They aren’t allowed to be human.

I found this article fascinating.   https://www.newsweek.com/newsweek-com-prince-harry-why-recollections-vary-grief-memory-spare-1773673

One of my mentors always says there are emotions, opinions and facts.  Most conflict arises when we confuse them.  This article says that as we process grief, our memories can morph and change.   My memory of my fathers death is completely different than my sister wBPD.  I have frequently just accepted that, as we experienced it differently.  For me it was a several month process  more like a long movie, for her it was short experiences from the very brief visits, more like snapshots.  Add her highly emotional state and time and BPD and it makes sense.  She states her memories as facts and constantly wants apologies for things that didn’t even happen or I remember quite differently than she does. 

The members of the royal family are highly repressed from being themselves and are forced to be “images” for the public.  At one level I applaud Harry for rejecting that.   On the other hand, I suspect that the story we are getting is no more factual than the tabloids, as it represents Harry and Meghan’s emotions and opinions on how they were treated.  Some of their story is based on things that happened and are true, but how they tell the story is biased to their viewpoint.  I wouldn’t trade places with any of them.  The fairytales are an illusion. 

[Greg]

First off, why are we psychoanalyzing celebrities?

Second, read the book.  Then make a judgement about it, .

Third, as a survivor of both BPD and Narc abuse I see absolutely 0% red flags from Harry or Meghan.  I watched all 6 episodes of the amazing Netflix series, Oprah interview, and other stuff.  They seem to be genuine people caught in the storm of tabloid and  political nastiness trying to do their best.  Being that they likely get death threats on a near-constant basis, it would be nice if people just left them alone.

Lastly, Diana is a target here, too?  I see no signs of BPD or narc stuff from her.  Quite the opposite watching her BBC interview.  She seems like she had to put up with some horrific things and tried to escape, but died a brutally tragic death at a young age.

Really shocked to see blaming of domestic violence victims here.

[zachira]

I am not surprised that people have mixed and different feelings about what Prince Harry and Meghan are doing. I am working on not being too polarized about how I feel about either Prince Harry and Meghan or the Royal Family. From my perspective coming from an extremely abusive family, I feel it is important for me to recognize the abuse while at the same time acknowledge how sometimes I have acted/act like my family members. The Royal Family is an abusive environment. Prince Harry and Meghan and the Royal Family don't own any of their dysfunctional behaviors; it is always someone else that is at fault, though they all have been abused. What is important here is to break the cycle of family abuse.

[LifewithEase]

Let me just compliment this group for having this conversation.

I'm sure you all notice that in general, the community here is respectful, supportive, giving people the benefit of the doubt.

This thread, insightful and knowledgeable, yet lighthearted (we do not know these people  - feels like a nice and needed release from the pressure cooker of all our real-life discussions.

[Couscous]

Some possible red flags: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-XtG6GjIB3Y

[Notwendy]

Maybe it would help to make it clear ( and I think that we are all on the same page here) that what we know about celebrities isn't the whole of it. There's no intention of personal disrespect to them and it's unthinkable to attack them personally. To do something like send them threats is unacceptable and IMHO, people who do that would have to be mentally unstable.

I have empathy for Diana. She was in a terrible situation, being married to a man who didn't love her and was in love with someone else. It's understandable that anyone could have emotional issues in such a situation.

I agree that Harry and his family deserve privacy. On the other hand, it's their choice to have revealed some of their private life to the media and they were paid for that. Why does this make money for the media? Because, people are curious about the lives of people who seem to have such different circumstances than most of us do- extreme wealth, fame, exceptionally attractive, and tend to speculate about them. But truly we don't know any more than they choose to reveal. This is a diversion for us. We are not in any position to really judge any of them, and we surely don't mean any harm by discussing them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

First off, why are we psychoanalyzing celebrities?

First off : because why not ?  

They quite literally decided to make their problems a public matter when they exposed their life via books and a documentary.

I stand by my comment that I don't trust ANY of them and believe them to be incredibly entitled human beings living in another world than ours... Just like I probably am compared to... Say... A farmer in Africa.  

Second, read the book.  Then make a judgement about it, .

Third, as a survivor of both BPD and Narc abuse I see absolutely 0% red flags from Harry or Meghan.  I watched all 6 episodes of the amazing Netflix series, Oprah interview, and other stuff.  They seem to be genuine people caught in the storm of tabloid and  political nastiness trying to do their best.  Being that they likely get death threats on a near-constant basis, it would be nice if people just left them alone.

Lastly, Diana is a target here, too?  I see no signs of BPD or narc stuff from her.  Quite the opposite watching her BBC interview.  She seems like she had to put up with some horrific things and tried to escape, but died a brutally tragic death at a young age.

Really shocked to see blaming of domestic violence victims here.

Blaming ?

I didn't read any blaming in anyone's comments here, just observations and suppositions, questions about the why's of the book and documentary.

I do see you being emotionally reactive and overly protective toward Diana, Meghan and Harry though, who, by the way, you likely don't know personally either? So I do wonder what is going on with that?

[Couscous]

I have to admit that part of me really wants to believe that Meghan is the villain and Harry an innocent victim who has fallen under her spell, but such things only happens in fairytales. Even if Meghan has been blackmailing him into continuing to speak out against his family, the truth is that he still does possess free will.

I thought this analysis by Dr Grande of the 60 Minutes interview was thought-provoking and eye-opening: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CF78ueSD4Qg

[Riv3rW0lf]

I have to admit that part of me really wants to believe that Meghan is the villain and Harry an innocent victim who has fallen under her spell, but such things only happens in fairytales. Even if Meghan has been blackmailing him into continuing to speak out against his family, the truth is that he still does possess free will.

I thought this analysis by Dr Grande of the 60 Minutes interview was thought-provoking and eye-opening: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CF78ueSD4Qg

If you are interested in this case, I recommend looking at the behavioral analysis of Meghan and Harry in the documentary. The guy doesn't dislike nor like them, he just observe their body language and comments on it through the lense of psychology, as a mentalist.

This is part 1 for episodes one and two, seems like part 2 just came out : https://youtu.be/5cyzMp6CSs8

I like it cause you also get to learn about how to read body language ! 

[Greg]

I do see you being emotionally reactive and overly protective toward Diana, Meghan and Harry though, who, by the way, you likely don't know personally either? So I do wonder what is going on with that?

I am emotionally invested ("reactive" and "overly protective" are blame language) in any survivor of emotional and physical abuse and trauma.  I think its why most of post here.

I wish people would either support, or leave victims alone. I see nothing malicious or cluster B in any of their postings, interviews, or talks.  I do see a lot of bravery and I absolutely see tell signs of Harry surviving abuse at the hands of a narc, especially in the recent colbert interview.  Meghan has had to deal with almost non-stop racism and death threats.  Nothing in her behavior matches a narc seeking supply.  If she was a narc she wouldve left long ago to find a better source of supply, imo.

[Couscous]

If she was a narc she wouldve left long ago to find a better source of supply, imo.

The problem is that the other sources are far too young for her…
https://www.tatler.com/gallery/lesser-known-european-princes

[Riv3rW0lf]

I am emotionally invested ("reactive" and "overly protective" are blame language) in any survivor of emotional and physical abuse and trauma.  I think its why most of post here.

Being emotionally reactive is a physical state I get in when I haven't dealt with something. And people can be overly protective all the time, or when they are triggered, for no logical reasons. Those are words describing states, not blame language. There wasn't any blame assigned to them, I assure you. English is not my first language though, so maybe you are assigning more weight onto a word than I would. To me, being emotionally reactive is similar to being triggered, which I use all the time for myself. So again, you decide to see blame here where there is none, which is easy to do via "text messages". I've done it too honestly. Emotionally reacted last time we discussed Dr. Ramani  , and I learned something about myself that day.

I wish people would either support, or leave victims alone. I see nothing malicious or cluster B in any of their postings, interviews, or talks.  I do see a lot of bravery and I absolutely see tell signs of Harry surviving abuse at the hands of a narc, especially in the recent colbert interview.  Meghan has had to deal with almost non-stop racism and death threats.  Nothing in her behavior matches a narc seeking supply.  If she was a narc she wouldve left long ago to find a better source of supply, imo.

I don't think she is a narc, I do think, however, that she is an attention seeking person than shows an awful lot of discrepancies between her words, her actions, and her own judgment of others. I certainly don't think she is genuine.

As for Prince Harry, he seems more genuine. It is quite clear though, in my opinion, that he feels a lot of rage and anger, and is dealing, like most of us here, with a lot of mommy/daddy issues. Maybe he is dealing with it in therapy right now too? and good for him... Making it all public though ? Seriously ?

As if that would give them peace and solace and calm the crowds...To me: It's a money grab is what it is, and it gives Meghan the attention she wants. The guy has to learn a living though. But then again : I don't trust celebrities in general.  

Also... Most victims of abuse BECOME abusers. More often than not, they are the ones with the personality disorders and issues. When is it that we can talk about them? Or should we hush-hush around the dysfunctions we see because they were born out of abuse? If that is the case, I cannot talk about my abusers anymore I guess.

Talking about the dysfunctions we see, analysing them, sharing our views on things is precisely how we learn about the world and especially, how we learn about ourselves. Most people here are incredibly self-aware and kind. So again, I do wonder why you are calling out "blame" everywhere, and calling people out on a casual discussion they are having, as if it was completely out of place. Are people not allowed to have a different opinion than yours on two people who decided to make their life public?

You could have just as easily stated your opinion while leaving out the "Really shocked to see blaming of domestic violence victims here" : guiltripping/shaming. Most people here would have respected your opinion and some maybe even changed their minds.

[Notwendy]

We can look at these two different worlds- being part of the royal family and being a Hollywood celebrity. With narcissism, there's a continuum- all of us have some of it and we should have some- in a functional way. Perhaps people who do well in the public eye need to have a bit more of that.

I believe that everyone has a talent to contribute to the world, and while acting is one of them, only a small percentage of talented performers become famous. I think we are looking at members of very select groups. I don't think Meghan is a major star but she's in that social realm.

With the royal family, it's a mix of ability and just fate- one is born into it and I think learns their role in a similar way a child might grow up helping in a family business, knowing one day they will run it. How well they do that may also depend on their personalities.

I think when Harry and Meghan announced they wanted to leave the world of royalty for the more "common" life- they didn't become like non celebrities. It seemed that Harry stepped into Meghan's world - but he also was already there- that was his social circle.

Looking at that select group of people who attain celebrity status- some of them have a series of dysfunctional romantic relationships and are frequently in the tabloids. For example- Britney Spears, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, Tom Cruise. Then we have Denzel Washington, Dustin Hoffman, Meryl Streep- super talents, never in the tabloids- they aren't disclosing their personal lives with Oprah, aren't producing a Netflix bio.

So to further divide these super talents- some seem to gravitate to the tabloids and others choose quiet and privacy and the stars in the tabloids seem to be giving them plenty to write about. I think it takes a certain amount of narcissism to tolerate and even enjoy this kind of publicity and maybe this plays into the tendency towards disordered relationships.

Is this at the level of toxic, abusive narcissism? Not necessarily but perhaps enough to create dysfunction and I think our discussions are about the similarities to that dysfunction and our own experiences of it. Maybe a bit like saying these superstar people are still dealing with human experiences like the rest of us "ordinary people".

And perhaps we are puzzled by their saying they don't want to be royals and just be ordinary people but I think what they really mean is choosing Meghan's world over Harry's and in that world, their behavior seems to fit in. To us though, it's far from what we consider "ordinary".

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

Thank you for the nuances between celebrities. I agree with all you wrote. I'd add that some celebrities end up on the tabloid against their will too, Britney Spears made the tabloid at a period of her life when she was struggling a lot, she went into rehab, there was a lot going on and I felt for her at the time. I do wished they'd have left her alone. I remember pictures of Britney Spears, shaved head, trying to hide from the media. And then how they called her fat when she made her comeback, years later, after a long time out of the game, trying to survive. I did feel the media treated her unfairly. But then I didn't follow the whole thing, so might have missed bits and pieces.

Meghan, in comparison, seems to love the attention and to seek it, not suffer from it... is it her front? Her guard? And behind closed door, she cries and suffers from it? ... Maybe but I somehow doubt that.

[Notwendy]

I agree- Britney seems to have some sort of mental illness and her suffering should not have been exploited. I mentioned her as an example of how disfunction when someone is a celebrity leads to that kind of publicity- not necessarily a wanted one. I do think the media is exploitative and that seems to go hand in hand with being in the spotlight.

There could also be a distinction between stars who became stars as children and those who became stars as adults. Media and stardom seems to have a more detrimental effect on children. Britney is one who became a child star. Some adults can't handle this either but it seems that child stars are particularly vulnerable.

Meghan is not the biggest of the stars although this is her social circle.

I think Hollywood itself is not an emotionally healthy environment. Some stars fare better than others. I saw the Elton John movie- Rocket Man- and cringed at the scenes with his parents and how cold his mother was. He had a strained relationship with her. I liked how the movie emphasized his resilience to the struggles he experienced. He's not ever in the tabloids and has a long term stable relationship.

Then there's Michael Jackson who experienced child abuse and exploitation and suffered greatly, despite having incredible talent and fame- and so many unhappy situations for others, Britney included.

Maybe the Hollywood lifestyle is somehow selective for a certain type of personality - otherwise it may not be possible to endure it. Where Meghan fits into this, it's probably not possible to say. We don't know the whole of it. Maybe we are confused by Harry's declaration to not be a royal and live an ordinary life but the world they are in now is not ordinary by our definition.