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Author Topic: Perpetrator  (Read 1344 times)
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« on: January 16, 2023, 08:16:14 AM »

Hi all, it's tough right now.

Paragraph header (click to insert in post) for anyone triggered by the topic of sexual abuse.

My wife's thoughts about having been sexually abused by me is once again occupying her mind.

This time it scares me to think about what damage she can do to me. From what I know about my country I could probably not get into legal trouble based on accusations. And people generally know that she is a complicated person. But she is good with words and can argue against anyone without loosing her conviction. I'm a little worried about how this could affect my relationships in the future, especially my r/s with my boys.


She talks about the abuse as facts, it's not accusations in her mind. She is aware that I do not agree, but she has read a lot about abusers and they generally deny their guilt so she doesn't get that worked up about it. In her mind, she is an awakened women who knows better now than to be unsure about her feelings. It's impossible to reason with so I try to not engage in conversation (but I do stay and listen to her talking about it).

She has been in a calm state the last few days but her thoughts are constantly on this subject. She wanted to examine the concept of sexual abuse by diving into the case of Michael Jackson, by watching the documentary "Leaving Neverland" and by reading and studying the case online. I foolishly agreed to watch the documentary with her and I'm feeling like a shameful dog. Upon hearing descriptions of sexual abuse of children described by the alleged victims themselves in the documentary, she states things loud to herself such as; "That happened to me too." and "I know how they feel.". We are born the same year so she can't have been a victim of a pedophile in our case, but she says it's the same thing with grown ups. She draws a lot of comparisons between me and Michael Jackson. Right now, she's not expressing anger at me, but is looking to understand me and my motives (?). It's really messing me up mentally, but I haven't lost my head yet.

I have genuine shame about sex (somewhere between normal and heightened level of shame I would assume) and I'm finding it hard not to twist my thoughts into believing I'm this perpetrator she is picturing me as.

I booked an appointment with my support person for Thursday, I think it might be necessary.
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2023, 09:07:13 AM »

Feelings are facts to pwBPD.

You should watch the Jodi Arias trial videos on YouTube. She tried to use fabricated sexual abuse as a way to justify murdering Travis Alexander. Then you should watch the Amber Heard trial videos on YouTube. She tried to use fabricated sexual abuse as a way to justify the abuse of Johnny Depp.

You'll see a lot of your wife in those women.
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2023, 11:38:46 AM »

Those trials highlighted the feelings of someone's adult relationship.  One major difference in those cases was the notoriety, one was murder and the other publicity.  Our concern for you and other members in similar situations is that (1) you have young children and (2) there is only a small change in perceptions required for the dysfunctional spouse to shift from feelings of self to using claims of possible/perceived child abuse to obstruct you.

I had a history of long religious participation, well over two decades, and most of our marriage had been shared together in that volunteer work.  I would never ever had imagined that her perceptions would have morphed into child abuse allegations, they did.  when I had been rejected, my fatherhood had to be rejected too.

Fortunately for me, her allegations started misfocused and clueless when we separated.  Her first separated claim was that I was abusive months earlier when our preschooler had, while stopped, tipped his bike over on a bike path at a local park.  Not even a scrape or bruise, though he did get medical attention.

It was later, for the next few years during the divorce and afterward, that her allegations got progressively more and more accusatory since the earlier ones failed to succeed.  Some were just suspicions and others were "My child told me..."  Nothing came of them but you can be sure those years traumatized me.  I just can't bring myself to reach out for religious volunteer work since.
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2023, 03:06:35 AM »

It's very convincing to listen to her talk about predators/perpetrators, and that I am one. She was crying and talked about how healing it is for her to watch Leaving Neverland, to see other people with her experience being vulnerable and honest and forgiving themselves.

Can someone help me unravel this?

She relates to the experiences of the children - the children loved Michael Jackson and felt special from the sexual attention. Still, it was traumatic and shameful for them. Jacksons attention was like a drug to them, and when they were discarded, their feelings changed.
Now, how does this relate to my wife's experience? I think she do feel those same feelings, but because we are the same age, it wasn't a crime to have sex with her. Does she feel shame because of her loss of innocence? And could it be the same for the children in the documentary. What responsibility do I have for this trauma I created in her. I don't remember ever being threatening but I wasn't very attentive either. I really don't think I did anything to make me feel like a drug to her. If she experienced that, it has to have been in her head.

The children "agreed" to the sexual relationship with MJ.
My wife agreed to our sexual relationship.
The difference being the age difference which changes a lot.

I'm sorry to have to talk to you about this embarrassing subject.
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2023, 05:42:16 AM »

I have said this before- your wife has some very different ideas about men, sex, and relationships. It is possible to re-play serious childhood trauma in our adult relationships.

One aspect of BPD is emotionally being at a younger age.

One aspect of childhood trauma is to be emotionally stuck at the age it happened.

I do wonder, with these ideas your wife has, if she was sexually abused as a child. She might not remember it. It's possible she dissociated from it. But as an adult, she's possibly replaying this out with you in your marital relationships.

There was no way to know this when you met her as she was physically an adult but emotionally not one.

Sex between two consenting adults is completely different than sex between an adult and a child. One is not abusive, the other one is.

But if your wife is emotionally a child, she's experiencing the relationship like a child would.

To make this clear. You have not done anything wrong. Your wife is legally an adult. To you, it's consensual marital sex. To her, she may have experienced this relationship as child abuse. However, you are not responsible for this. You are not the one who caused the trauma and you didn't have any idea or intentions of her feeling this way. I think this is the line that feels blurred to you. She's accusing you of something because of how she feels, but you didn't do what she feels you did.

I can understand the feeling of connection with MJ. Now, I don't condone any form of child abuse and if MJ did that, then, he as an adult is accountable for that behavior. You can see the origin of it though. MJ was also subjected to abuse as a child and seems to be replaying that in his adult life- he acted child like, his Neverland was a child's fantasy, his wanting to be with children and emotional connection to them. From the adult perspective, this was seriously wrong. But for MJ, being emotionally childlike, he himself didn't see the wrong in what he was doing. MJ was extremely talented and also emotionally disturbed.

To be clear: you have zero responsibility for your wife's trauma. Most likely someone else is responsible for that, someone who caused that years before you met her and she's replaying that with you and likely, if she married someone else, it would be that person who is in the position.

Naturally, you have empathy for her. However, you didn't cause this and you can't change this for her. She, herself, needs to do this with therapy. However, the difficulty is her externalizing this to other people which makes it hard to convince her to do that.

Your task though is to not lose sense of your own reality. I think the idea of childhood trauma makes sense in light of your wife's continually brining this theme of sexual trauma/betrayal up to you and you can't seem to find a way to fix that for her. It's not in your power to do that.





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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2023, 06:49:40 AM »

NotWendy I feel is spot on in her assessment based on what you have shared.

I do have a question for you as you have stated you were both the same age.  How old were you guys when you started to have sex?

Paragraph header (click to insert in post) TRIGGER WARNING - Sexual Content

Also, was this relationship hypersexual [she wants it all the time, cannot get enough] / hyposexual [doesn't want it, and might occasionally do it out of F.O.G.] / and can flip between these two states?

I have experienced this in my own relationship with my uBPDw and she was only placating me for reasons of Obligation and Guilt after she had flipped.  I know she has family secrets, and there have been only vague innuendos relating to possible sexual abuse when she was a child originating from my wife's mother [my MIL] by making it a point to point out all sexual abuse article from the time our daughter was less than 1 yo, until there was a scandal at our church when she was 13 yo, where it abruptly stopped and my daughter had 'sex ed' in school and could fend for herself.  I also know my wife said she was a virgin when we met, and when she seduced me and 'gave me her virginity'; the blood [dark maroon and dried to the point of being granular, located deep inside - I didn't think much of it at the moment; however, my wife made it a point to point it out, after the act was completed - indicating the possibility that it was 'planted' there several hours earlier when she had originally planned to seduce me in that manner the previous evening] was not that of a virgin [I checked my theory with my individual T, she confirmed] and I had one other previous relationship, when I and and my previous partner were both 19, where I could compare [bright red and very liquid, at the entrance].  Anyone else care to comment on their loss of virginity experience as that information I have yet to find on Google -- I looked?

The hyper/hyposexual flip for my wife occurred the moment we realized we were pregnant with our first child - in essence I went from her lover to the father of her unborn child -- my wife more than likely has 'Daddy Issues'.

The reason why I am asking this, this is one of the indicators of childhood sexual abuse that NW alluded to.  The top two reasons why they become hypersexual is "fear of abandonment" and "self-harm" tendencies - both being traits attributable to major symptoms of being borderline.  I only saw one person indicated that they 'want to please their partner' out of several dozen people responding in an hour after the question was posted on a forum for borderlines moderated by borderlines.  95% were that of females, but men had identical behaviors too with 100% indicating sexual abuse as a child/tween/teen.

Anyone else here, have similar experiences with their pwBPD?

 
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2023, 08:55:27 AM »

Of course, I was going into the relationship with sexual desires, and it doesn't feel completely innocent. I didn't mean it that way but I planted expectations on her, by telling her I'm desiring something that happened to be something she didn't want to do. After a short while, she felt obligated to do it, but she didn't say that. I could have thought it through more carefully but I wanted it too much to say no when she agreed.

How does that sound to you, innocent, ugly, or just unfortunate? Mixed with shame, it definitely feels ugly.

Doesn't the same apply to children playing innocently. Two children play together, one of them wants the game to go in one direction and the other one wants it to go in another direction. Either the game stops or one or two of them compromises. When my wife was a child, I think she would have compromised her wishes in favor of the relationship with the other child. But in afterward, she would feel that she has been treated badly by the other child, whom she could now view as a total 'brat' that isn't even thankful for her sacrifices. Does that make sense? How does this sort of thinking relate to narcissistic thinking?

Now, in my case, I'm confident that I also compromised and thought about her, so I don't feel like I was being unfair or used her. I do accept that I wanted things selfishly. I didn't want it without consent, but maybe I thought that if we try it, both will enjoy it. Like introducing a game to someone who isn't that eager to try it. They might even end up loving it.

I hope this doesn't sound gross and I'm trying not to be explicit here.
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2023, 10:56:11 AM »

Let’s unpack this.

When you’re young, the awakening of sexuality and the ability to express it, is like a new toy. You play with it, without reading the manual. You do what is fun for you.

As you become more familiar with it, you also become more aware of how your partner feels. Perhaps at this point you might read some instructions, some of which may be good, some flawed.

That your wife would accuse you of predatory behavior at the point when you were young and innocently exploring the sexuality between the two of you, leads me to wonder, like Notwendy has mentioned, if your wife was sexually abused at a much earlier point in her life.

Sexual predators typically don’t stay with their victims. That you are married and have children together, as well as that you question your own intent, seems to largely vindicate you.

It seems that all issues between you and your wife are exacerbated by your own lack of self concept. Someone who firmly knows who they are, when questioned if they were abusive, or if they were seeking a relationship with an old girlfriend, would easily be able to reject these questions as nonsense, if false. That you give any credence to her dysfunctional thought processes, seems to give her suspicions some validity.

Best to outright dismiss falsity as just that. Don’t let an emotionally dysfunctional person define you.

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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2023, 02:26:34 PM »


To answer Salty Dawg's post about blood after losing virginity- that doesn't always happen. Anatomy can vary. But I also think it's strangely weird to speak in terms of "offering virginity" to you- seems like an archaic commodity.

I have read some about Elvis since the sad news about Lisa Marie. Elvis was 24 and dated Priscilla at 14 although it's stated they didn't consummate the relationship until she was 18 and married. Priscilla also stated that as soon as she gave birth to Lisa Marie, Elvis lost interest in her. He only could be interested in young virgins. It's also interesting that Lisa Marie married MJ and has stated she fell in love with him. We tend to match our partners emotionally. Both Daddy and spouse preferring kids? Lisa Marie may not have experienced sexual abuse personally but I assume her upbringing and losing her father so young were emotionally difficult.

Doesn't the same apply to children playing innocently. Two children play together, one of them wants the game to go in one direction and the other one wants it to go in another direction. Either the game stops or one or two of them compromises.


No, I don't think it's the same as children. Children are different from adults and an adult with a child's level of emotions is a disturbed individual. It's not a uniform delay and adults can also think at a different cognitive level than children. Adults have power and adults have choices.

Your wife's situation about trying something with you is not like a child on the playground trying out a new game. Kids do not play out sexual acts on the playground unless someone has done something to them. Kids do not have hormones or sexual urges. They are curious about why the opposite sex has different parts but that's innocent. I recall the "I will show you mine if you show me yours game" as a kid  but no way did I agree to that and that isn't traumatic.

Kids have boundaries with their own bodies. They can say no and mean it. Unless perhaps some adult has violated them.

Your wife possibly did have her boundaries violated as a child and this is extremely traumatic. So when you, as an adult, assuming she is one as well ( and she legally is), suggested doing something that interests you, you did absolutely nothing wrong. As long as the other adult can consent or not, and the request was done in a caring fashion - it' not abusive. Now if it was said in a hurtful way " if you don't do XYZ..." or "everyone else does it" - that could be seen as coercive and emotionally abusive. If this happened and you have apologized and are now considerate of her, you have done all you can do.

What seems more likely is that the abuse was done and now the trauma was replayed with you and she felt as if you were doing that.

But as Cat said- this is important-
It seems that all issues between you and your wife are exacerbated by your own lack of self concept. Someone who firmly knows who they are, when questioned if they were abusive, or if they were seeking a relationship with an old girlfriend, would easily be able to reject these questions as nonsense, if false. That you give any credence to her dysfunctional thought processes, seems to give her suspicions some validity.

Best to outright dismiss falsity as just that. Don’t let an emotionally dysfunctional person define you.



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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2023, 04:14:07 PM »

I can't add much more to the excellent comments already written.  As for my own marriage, I did conclude, long after my marriage had imploded, that my ex had begun comparing me negatively to her abusive stepfather, but it didn't start until I myself became a father and apparently that was her trigger.

Yours is an adult relationship.  No court ought to view her feelings or emotions as basis for later DV claims.  Yes, it can get very messy if she goes that far, but that's why we encourage you to be forewarned and document the reality, that you're not abusive, despite her feelings.  Feelings are not fact.
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2023, 03:10:08 AM »

Thank you for your responses, it means a lot. I will not comment further on this right now, instead I want to explore a thought I had yesterday.

My wife is the middle child, her big brother is five years older and her little brother is six years younger. I haven't thought much about it before, but I feel that she has grown apart from her younger brother. They don't talk a lot and she often talks to me about how he's gotten more bitter over the years. I have not noticed this development, I think he has matured a lot these last few years. He's like a little brother to me, he has been a part of my life since he was 10 yo. My wife doesn't seem interested in having a close relationship with him anymore. With her own family, she's mostly focusing on acting as the mature one, and in some ways she is. She doesn't get very personal with them, either she's quiet, or she's lecturing them politely, acting as the mature one. To her defense, when she tell her brothers things about her life, they seem quite uninterested. Her brothers talk confidently about their everyday habits, and get much more attention (at least in my wife's view). So she feel that her brothers don't listen to her and she has sort of given up on being personal with them.

She has talked a little about how things changed when her little brother was born. I feel that she has a very deeply rooted jealousy that might be caused by the addition of her younger brother in the family when she was 6 yo. What if this means a lot more than I ever thought it did. He was a demanding child as a baby and my parents in law was probably a bit preoccupied with him for a few years, and she felt forgotten. Up until that point, she was the baby in the family.

I'm wondering if this might be a psychological injury in her.

Her big brother, she told me that he once peeped on her when she was in the shower and her mother was very angry at him, but I have a hard time thinking there's more to it than that. Some boundary issues for sure, when she was having bulimia, he did something to the toilet so she wasn't able to flush, because he wanted to catch her in the act. Kind of an odd thing to do for an older brother. Otherwise he is a kind person.
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2023, 05:37:48 AM »

Sorry I'm already continuing this thread in yet another direction. But this is more in line with the initial topic of this thread.

As expected, this MJ documentary is creating new narratives in my w's brain.

When I was a child up until I met my w, I hung out with my two younger cousins (boys) a lot, they're 4 years younger than me and lived a one hour drive away from me so I did sleep overs at their houses but mostly at my grand parents house a few times a year. They certainly idolized me a little bit, which was a nice experience to me as I was the youngest child in my own family, and I was able to be like a big brother to them, kind of the same as my brother in law later became. There where also other cousins in those families and we could flip between houses in the village (my aunt's house, uncle's house + my grandparents house) so it was a lot of fun, almost a theme park-like existence, especially in the summers. Very good memories. Ironically, my wife is from that same village. But now my wife is creating a big picture in her mind that I could have done something sexually towards them, because she can't really believe that she's my only victim! She said that she has realized that the real victims are always boys (what an impressive theory, eh).

I know she is very attentive to how someone reacts when being confronted, one wrong step and she will have proven to herself that there is guilt and lies. If I act defensive, she will view that as evidence of guilt. If I explain my relationship with my cousins, she will be suspicious... etc etc... I realize now I basically need to avoid JADE. I don't know if she will drop this instantly, or press me on answers. The more I answer, the more she will be convinced of my guilt. Maybe not direct sexual abuse, but she will suspect that something sexual was going on, like showing them porn or something like that. There wasn't anything like that.

Can someone remind me in JADE theory, Not validating the invalid etc, how should I respond to this. This came as a surprise phone call just now and I'll need to be prepared for this evening. Damn...
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2023, 06:31:26 AM »

15 years- I don't know how to convince you that someone who has distorted thinking can think anything. What concerns me is that you consider this as if it might be true.

One problem with discerning distorted thinking with someone with BPD is that they are not completely disconnected from reality. But that doesn't mean that what they think is real all the time.

I have a friend who sadly developed schizophrenia. She will talk about people shooting evil radio waves at her and little green men in her basement are after her. These seem real to her. I can not get her to stop thinking this. I can't change what she thinks no matter how much I wish I could. I feel sad for her and her family that she struggles with this. But not for one second do I consider that there might be green men in her basement or people shooting radio waves at her.

What your wife is saying may not sound as outlandish as green men in the basement. BPD thinking is more aligned with what we see as possible or real- but it can still be not real or true even if it seems to be true for them.

These ideas about you are delusional. Her ideas about the teacher are delusional. If she called you a green man shooting radio waves, would you consider the possibility? No, because you know what is true about you and what is not.

This is just my own guess as I am not a professional and don't know your wife, but her thinking and ruminations about being abused are continuous- no matter what the situation. They can be brought up by a TV show, or seeing an old girlfriend, or even just her feelings. She sees sexual abuse in all kinds of situations- where it isn't happening. This sounds like her own trauma being revisited. It doesn't matter if you JADE or don't JADE- there is nothing you can do or say to change her thinking.

One reason you become the participant in this with her is that you are her sexual partner and as Cat mentioned, your own shame and participating in these discussions with her may be reinforcing the situation for her.

I understand that it is difficult to see someone you care about who is upset about their own thoughts and to feel so helpless. I really wish I could ease my friend's fear of people shooting radio waves at her. It's very upsetting to her. But I know I have no ability to do that. She needs professional help.

I understand your wish to do something to help your wife and that it's hard to see her in emotional distress over her thoughts but you can not help her by wondering if they may be real or by saying just the right thing to her to ease her emotional distress. If what she says is not true, then it's not true and her saying or thinking it doesn't make it true.

My own opinion about your wife's ideas is that, she needs professional help with this.
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2023, 07:04:06 AM »

Thanks. I'm getting closer to not engaging in her thoughts, but I'm not there yet. One reason is she will not let go of ideas easily, it's so tiring that I can't stand firm. Thanks for taking your time to repeat this to me, it's not wasted, it does have a positive, yet slow effect on me.




Sidenote...  just venting my thoughts on the MJ-case because I can't do that to my wife... Smiling (click to insert in post)
At least one of the men (Wade) was going through a rough time mentally (allegedly due to the past sexual abuse by MJ), and he had a lot to gain by shifting focus onto being a victim in the MJ-abuser narrative. His whole family was shocked, and it caused a wave of emotions and consequences for all of them. His older brother finding it hard to forgive their mother etc., Wade's wife going through a long process of taking in these news etc. Now if the confession from Wade was a lie and just a spur of the moment emotional release, it had too much of an impact on his loved ones, so now he has a lot to loose by taking it back if it wasn't true. Ultimately, I cannot know who's telling the truth. My wife, she thinks people who defend MJ are evil and corrupt. I'll have to be very careful talking to her about this and not share any thoughts to her about it. It's hard though when this is all she's talking about at this point.
My own theory, an important element of bpd, if pwbpd find something that really soothe's their emotions on a deeper level, like identifying with a victim in a news story, chances are that this idea will stick for the rest of their lives... as time goes by, more ideas are added and they get more and more delusional.
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2023, 09:14:48 AM »

From my own observations, people with BPD prefer victim position. The benefit of this is absolution for any personal responsibility, as victims are not to blame for their predicaments. By being absolved of this, they avoid feeling any shame.

What makes sexual abuse so awful and traumatic is that, I think it's often done by someone who the child knows and trusts and this person has groomed the child by paying attention to them and making them feel special. Children like attention and feeling special. Some of the physical contact may be the kind that kids like- being hugged by someone they love is an example. Then, this trust is violated and the child feels a sense of shame because, well they liked this person and liked the attention. They are then enlisted to keep this secret to maintain their special status.

Maybe this is part of your wife's fixation on being your one and only special person, after all, she allowed you to- in her own thinking- "violate" her. So she's both attached and angry and traumatized at the same time? However, any pleasure she may feel in her adult physical relations is also connected to shame and trauma and being your victim.

You, on the other hand, were the clueless adult who assumed normal marital relations and became the perpetrator in her own thinking. This had nothing to do with you. Had she married someone else, likely he'd be the one to play that role with her, because all this is her own thinking and it's sad for her to feel that way but it doesn't make any of her assumptions about you true.

Since you continue to participate in her mechanism to ease feelings of shame by assuming victim position, you are a part of this scheme. In the Karpman triangle, there are only two other roles: perpetrator or rescuer. Each time she brings this up- you need to give yourself over to her completely, you need to stop watching whatever is the latest show that may have made her feel bad, you need to discuss this again- she is looking to you to be rescuer. To be the one to apologize for what she says you did that you didn't do. Yet, you can't do this for her because, you didn't cause this in the first place. Since you failed at rescuer, you must be the persecutor.

I think what keeps you attached to this is your own shame for whatever caused that ( and you don't need to disclose it here) and perhaps you are trying to look for absolution from her, if you could get her to forgive you. But she can't do this because it's her own trauma. And you are the one who needs to let go of your own shame and forgive yourself. Each of us is responsible for our own feelings. We can't change someone else's feelings.

As to MJ - nobody knows the whole story about any celebrity. It's confusing because they are often attractive, charismatic, and talented people and we tend to attribute positive qualities to these characteristics. You have to wonder what parent lets their teen boy spend the night with an adult man who is not a close relative that the child knows? What parent allows their 14 year old daughter to date a 24 year old man? But when the men are MJ, or Elvis, people get star struck, they assume that person is safe and OK. How do you say no to your kid visiting Neverland? They'd be so mad at you. But it would have been the right thing to do. We will never know if MJ did what he's accused of or not. Motives such as money may also be in play. We won't ever know and it's not something to dwell on. Apparently your wife feels a connection to this, and is trying to make sense of it. I think counseling would help here, if she'd be willing to go.

These are just my ideas. You know your wife better and so I may just be guessing. I also don't know the whole of the MJ situation either. The best we can do is guess at a possibility.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 09:22:33 AM by Notwendy » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2023, 12:46:31 PM »

Sometimes we address various ideations here.  So how do I say this?  Your spouse is fixated on aspects of sexual ideation.  She's not letting this go.  She's ruminating on this.*  Accept that this is beyond your fixing, perhaps anybody's fixing.  I worry that it will be a small step for her to go further and connect her feelings to your relationship with your own children.

*Back in 9th grade I had a teacher who loved describing 'ruminate' - "Tommy went to his room 'n' ate."

If... If there is still intimacy in the marriage, then how do either of you reconcile intimacy despite the serious ideations or even suspicions?

I do recall that in the final years of my marriage, more or less after the birth of our son when normalcy disappeared, intimacy was rare, ranging from weeks apart to months apart.
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2023, 01:54:48 PM »

The biggest question to me, other than stability, is what are you getting out of this relationship? And why do you seek to continue it?
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2023, 10:35:22 PM »

 Paragraph header (click to insert in post) Sexual Content

To answer Salty Dawg's post about blood after losing virginity- that doesn't always happen. Anatomy can vary. But I also think it's strangely weird to speak in terms of "offering virginity" to you- seems like an archaic commodity.

Agreed.

From what I have read, there may not be any blood at all for any number of reasons, and I would have been fine with that.  What struck me as being very odd, is that my then GF, now my wife, made a deliberate point to point out that there was blood.  I was expecting a similar experience that I had as a 19yo guy, bright red and very liquid, much more so than menses which is dark red and jelly-like, but not granular.  Whereas what I experienced was dried to the point of being granular, a one-time experience, as though it was planted there.  I checked with my T, and she said it was plausible. 

In fact my T indicated to me that she is almost 100% sure there is some kind of [mental] 'barrier' is the term she used on why she is not having sexual relations, in spite of me doing everything I should to get the spark going [flowers, breakfast in bed, lunch/dinner dates, working her love languages, etc.]

I didn't think much of it at the time, but it was strange to me.  This was followed up by additional behavior about two weeks later, where she was asking me why I wasn't doing missionary style and pinning her down [I prefer female superior for a few  reasons, she is in control, more comfortable, and more sensations], but she indicated to me she had not watched porn, and I was her first man at 29yo, and I 33 -- how would she know this?  She could have seen it in an R rated movie.  Again, I thought it was odd, but I left it alone.

It wasn't until two decades later that I began to connect the dots in my mind, and I do have a very terrible ANT on this that cannot be readily explained away, especially in light of other possibly vague related circumstantial peculiarities related to potential 'Daddy Issues'.
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2023, 05:24:34 AM »

Just in everyday life we get exposed to sexual content. Some of the sex scenes even on regular TV today are pretty graphic. Some of the time, it's unexpected and even out of place in the theme of the show. If it's a romantic themed show, there's even more. I think you'd have to only choose to watch cartoons to avoid them.

Unless someone was raised in a convent and had no access to TV, internet, movies or books, they are going to have seen/heard of all kinds of things. I think it would be near impossible to assume where anyone has gotten an idea from. It's everywhere.

There's an emotional component to sex. If someone has disordered emotions, it seems logical to conclude that this has an impact. If BPD is more apparent with the most intimate of relationships- then a marriage is that relationship. It's the one that people are most emotionally invested in. I think it would be difficult to know what someone else is thinking and how they are processing intimacy if they have a disorder that affects emotions.



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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2023, 09:36:17 PM »

NotWendy,

   ...and the reasoning you validated for me is precisely the reason, why I kept my mouth shut, and left it alone two decades ago; however, my ANTs [automatic negative thoughts] are getting the better of me the more I look at the sexual component traits of the BPD disorder based on my uBPDw's behaviors - I don't intend on diagnosing, but I want to understand the behaviors, and why they are occuring, and my 'gut' feeling which is almost never wrong is leading me this way.

   That is why I am airing it out first with my individual T.  My gut feeling is there is a component of F.O.G. here, so, I am also airing it out here for a 2nd opinion.  Under my individual T's guidance I will ever so delicately approach it in couple's T with the following question: 

"Based on my description of our relationship to my individual therapist, she is almost 100% certain on this and has encouraged me to ask you in front of our couple's therapist you have some kind of 'barrier,' she specifically instructed me to use the word 'barrier', in your unwillingness in resuming the one emotional/physical component that makes a marriage a  marriage, in spite of extensive couple's therapy, with your desire to have a getaway next month at a B-n-B, which has implied expectations, and you are very much limiting the amount of physical touch which is one of the five love languages.  The fact that we are still married implies an obligation to fulfill the only emotional need that is ethically exclusive to marriage.  You need to let me know so you do not continue to lead me on, and my individual T & life coach can guide me on how to handle it."

The other emotional needs can ethically be met outside of marriage, but doesn't require you to be married.

My individual T wanted me to be a bit more direct; however, I felt that I needed to soften it a bit when making it, as it seem a bit more confrontational and critical using more direct and to the point words.

What is your suggestion on this, and my rewording of the more direct questions my individual T suggested of "My therapist is almost 100% certain that 'Sex' is a barrier for you. Please acknowledge if there is a 'barrier', and if there is are you working on whatever is holding you back.  If you're not willing to do something about this, please acknowledge it and let me know so I know how to handle it with my therapist."

If anyone else is reading this, if you guys/gals have comments, suggestions, and or observations, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your help in advance.

P.S.

The following websites, have some pretty scary statistics on this topic:
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens
https://victimsofcrime.org/child-sexual-abuse-statistics/

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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2023, 06:53:17 AM »

I don't have a good suggestion on this one. If sexual intimacy has an emotional component and someone has disordered emotions- it only makes sense they are going to have problems in an intimate relationship.

I have read that BPD impacts the most intimate of relationships the most. Since it's the marriage that includes physical intimacy- it would only make sense that BPD impacts the marriage and all aspects of it.

I think it's a good idea to discuss with a therapist. I think every person's situation is unique in this area- BPD is a spectrum and also people bring their own needs and experiences into a marriage. Probably the issues are unique to the two people involved.
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2023, 12:35:24 PM »

I would not beat around the bush avoiding directly naming that one thing - intimacy - that is reserved for marriage.  That's just me.  Been there, sort of done that.

In the early years of my marriage intimacy was very frequent.  But one thing that puzzled me even then was that she never dressed up for bed, as I recall it was always sweats or similar.

In the final years, after our son was born — she viewed me more as a father patterned after her abuser stepfather than as the husband of our prior decade together — her criticisms focused more on me.  Our intimacy shifted from hours and days apart to weeks and months apart.  It became manipulation for her, sex and not making love.  Then she stopped wanting to even touch me.  Weird thing was that at the same time she started plans to train for foot massages and body massages.  She's a licensed massage therapist now, so far as I know.  I was willing to be practiced on, but I never got any, not even one.

My marriage of course ended soon thereafter.  Disastrously.  I don't foresee any different outcome for your marriage, well, unless it radically reverses course and improves.
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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2023, 02:42:49 PM »

 Paragraph header (click to insert in post) Sexual Content & Self-Harm

Notwendy,

You wrote:
I don't have a good suggestion on this one. If sexual intimacy has an emotional component and someone has disordered emotions- it only makes sense they are going to have problems in an intimate relationship.
Makes 'perfect' sense to me.  However, her T and the couple's T didn't see it that way earlier when the previous one ghosted [fired] us by moving my wife's timeslot.  However, as it is an issue, it is an issue that needs to be raised; however, I wish to be as tactful as practical without being too triggering for her, yet forceful and direct enough to address the issue.

During last week's session, my wife split on me and painted me black, and even admitted that 'you have lost me' or something to that effect and point blank told the T that I do absolutely nothing.  I was defensive and rattled off a laundry list of things I was doing for the relationship, so the T is having me record the amount of stuff I am doing, and it is quite a bit, more than a full time job in her love languages and emotional needs.

I think it's a good idea to discuss [it] with a therapist. I think every person's situation is unique in this area- BPD is a spectrum and also people bring their own needs and experiences into a marriage. Probably the issues are unique to the two people involved.
Again, I agree with your first sentence of discussing it with the therapist. 

With regards to the issues being 'unique' I am going to push back on that.  Based on my informal and unscientific research of actually observing borderlines answering this very question by a borderline, I would say it is pretty evenly split between two reasons why borderlines are hyper/hyposexual, about 40-45% in each reason, with 10-20% listing other reasons or not giving any reason with only one response indicating that they wanted to please their partner - a normal reason.  100% of the people who responded indicated that they were sexually abused as a child, tween, or teen - ick.  About 90 percent who responded were women, and the balance men - same answers, same percentage between the two primary reasons or a combination of both.

Primary Reason #1.  Abandonment - they don't want to be abandoned, so they use it as a tool to keep their partner.  My impression is that I think they are doing this as an overcompensation to make up for other areas where they sense they are not normal.

Primary Reason #2.  Self-Harm - they do it as a form of self-harm, one that doesn't leave physical scars [like cutting].  My impression is that the act of sex is perceived as reliving the abusive acts that they had back when they were a child/tween/teen is harmful to their self worth = emotional self-harm.  I have seen a few people here on 'BPD family' complain that their partner is accusing them of raping them [after the fact] when the sex was consensual - in this context, it make sense.

ForeverDad,

I would not beat around the bush avoiding directly naming that one thing - intimacy - that is reserved for marriage.
Thank you for your advice, and validating my individual therapists' advice.

In the early years of my marriage intimacy was very frequent.  But one thing that puzzled me even then was that she never dressed up for bed, as I recall it was always sweats or similar.
#MeToo In the beginning my wife did buy a couple of outfits [her girl friends suggested it, it wasn't her original idea, and she shared that with me].  However, most of the time, mine didn't dress up either, but it didn't matter as it would have only been for a minute or two anyways before she undressed me and took her clothes off.  Most of the time it was worn-out PJ's, literally with holes in them.  And when she seduced me on top of a waterfall [public sex, her idea, she stated it was for abandonment reasons when I was going on an extended work trip when I asked her why she did it]  She was in sweats for this one.  One of her friend's husbands was a police officer, and he indicated that the whores on his beat wore sweats, fast and easy on, fast and easy off - so she copied that.

In the final years, after our son was born — she viewed me more as a father patterned after her abuser stepfather than as the husband of our prior decade together — her criticisms focused more on me.  Our intimacy shifted from hours and days apart to weeks and months apart.  It became manipulation for her, sex and not making love.  Then she stopped wanting to even touch me. 
Similarly, only that it literally changed overnight, the moment we were pregnant with our first child.  It went from every day [not on menses], to an average of once per year for the next decade!  Literally white to black thinking.

I have ANTs that suggests that my wife was abused as a child; however, there is no admission, and there are no clues other than a few vague clues I have previous discussed in this thread.

My marriage of course ended soon thereafter.  Disastrously.  I don't foresee any different outcome for your marriage, well, unless it radically reverses course and improves.
That is what I am afraid of -- Hoping for the 'radical' hail-mary and hopefully it does reverse.

I am hoping and praying for the best, but I am also planning for the worst.

My next couple's session is on Tuesday, I will let the couple's T lead, as I suspect that she might addressing borderline splitting - perhaps using different words, based on the homework assignment she gave me [it is the most apparent logical reason why she gave me a score-keeping exercise on doing all of my wife's love languages and emotional needs in response to my wife saying I don't do anything].

If there is progress on the splitting episodes, I may hold off.  However, if it concentrates on the love language of 'touch' I will definitely bring it up.

Any other suggestions, comments, or observations would be helpful?

NW & FD thank you both for your time and opinions, it is very much appreciated.
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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2023, 02:50:16 PM »

I guess I meant unique to the issues between two people -but it's a common issue with BPD as far as I have read. It's not an area I have much to add to though.
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2023, 10:27:53 PM »

 Paragraph header (click to insert in post) ?
Besides the chaos, conflict, ranting, etc in the rest of the marriage... I think this issue can be boiled down to one simple condition for the marriage to be rescued:  Intimacy must be be both (1) much more frequent, somewhat similar to life before the children, and (2) sincere/heartfelt.

Beware of the discussions being sidetracked with other issues or complaints.

I say sincere or even heartfelt since anything less would be a farce and would not last very long at all.  I had become accustomed to her hinting "tonight..." and then she always made sure she got mad at me later or got me so upset that I was turned off.  I recall my final encounter.  She had wanted me to accompany her to some training seminar out of town and me there for the overnight.  I seem to recall that the others wanted their own rooms.  I said No.  What do you know but there was intimacy.  Afterward she immediately said, Now you have to go with me.  Pure manipulation.  Where was her sincere or heartfelt love for me?  Long gone.
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2023, 11:13:15 PM »

Besides the chaos, conflict, ranting, etc in the rest of the marriage... I think this issue can be boiled down to one simple condition for the marriage to be rescued:  Intimacy must be be both (1) much more frequent, somewhat similar to life before the children, and (2) sincere/heartfelt.

Beware of the discussions being sidetracked with other issues or complaints.

I say sincere or even heartfelt since anything less would be a farce and would not last very long at all.

Thanks for that advice, the previous couple's T encouraged (1), but used a 'fake it till you make it approach' for (2).  Like you said, it didn't work too well. 

I do see and appreciate your point, I will see how Tuesday's session goes which will be followed on Wednesday 25 hours later with an individual session with a different therapist.

I will allow the discussion to be side-tracked to only one topic that is of critical importance, borderline splitting.  Other topics I will acknowledge and circle back to the target of marital intimacy.

If emotional abuse/neglect is addressed, as is the splitting, I could accept my wife with all of her [other] faults.  The physical abuse, and rages have largely been controlled; however, we need to work on the other things too.

Thank you once again for your observation and advice.

Take care.
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2023, 09:08:48 AM »

This is a super interesting topic since I thought I was the only one who experienced this.

Long story short, my BPD wife was raped by a boyfriend maybe 6-9 months before we met.  When we started dating, she aggressively pursued having sex w/ me...which I of course didn't complain about.  We were young and in love, what's not to like?

Fast forward 26 years (24 married), and shortly after we separated she told me that she was so aggressive sexually so I never had the chance to rape her (at least, that's what she believes now).  Anytime I wanted sex, the answer was yes...so I couldn't/wouldn't rape her.  And she now associates me with that rape, even though she says that I've never been inappropriate.  That's pretty much why my marriage is over and honestly, it has nothing at all to do with me.

I guess my question would be; has my wife felt that way her entire life?  Or is this something that just surfaced a few months ago, like a self realization?  Or is it all just made up nonsense to justify her splitting and painting me black?  I'm confident that I'll never get those answers even though that's what destroyed my entire life six months ago.

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