Do BPD spouses actually file divorce or all talk?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Here we go again with another round for me.  Of course I'm now a terrible person and do everything wrong.   Divorce talk coming up again but seems more serious this time.  Do bpd spouses actually file or just looking for a reaction?  Every time I gear up and get ready for the long fight everything changes.  Just wondering if she'll actually go through with it or does she just want my attention?  We haven't been getting along recently and I pulled away.

[mikejones75093]

Here we go again with another round for me.  Of course I'm now a terrible person and do everything wrong.   Divorce talk coming up again but seems more serious this time.  Do bpd spouses actually file or just looking for a reaction?  Every time I gear up and get ready for the long fight everything changes.  Just wondering if she'll actually go through with it or does she just want my attention?  We haven't been getting along recently and I pulled away.

[Notwendy]

From reading the posts here, sometimes they do follow through with it and sometimes it's just an empty threat.

My BPD mother threatened this frequently, but didn't follow through on it. I think there are some contributing reasons as to why someone might do it or not.

With my mother's situation, she is very affected by BPD. She was financially dependent on my father and also depended on him for many daily tasks. While she can appear to hold it together in public, she can't actually function on her own and so, actually could not manage if she had divorced him.

From the posts I have read, the spouses who are more likely to follow through seem to be higher functioning. They either have some ability to sustain themselves financially and/or they have found someone else to be in a relationship to do that for them.

This is just my observation from posts and from my parents.

[ForeverDad]

Divorce threats are a sign of major dysfunction in the marriage.  How can a family foster love, calm, stability and care in such an environment?

While some comments of divorce can be a result of real despair in a marriage, when linked to acting-out disordered spouses (Borderline, Narcissistic, Antisocial and Histrionic are the Cluster B category in the DSM manual) then the divorce threats are typically, at first, ultimatums expecting control, appeasement and weakened boundaries.

In your case, ponder... what does your spouse get out of such threats?  Is it venting when emotions are heightened?  Or is it to get you to capitulate on something, get you to apologize for whatever perceived wrong you've done, or something similar?  So, what changed for things to cool down?  (Yet you know it will flare up again, just give it time.)

A saying that has been echoed down through the years... "If it has been threatened or even contemplated, then it will happen, given enough time."

In that case, will your spouse have maneuvered thing in spouse's favor when it happens?  Will spouse surprise you and catch you off guard, unprepared and defenseless when it becomes real?

[mikejones75093]

It seems like she says it just to get a reaction from me or try to get me to apologize.

It's just getting old being told how horrible I am and how I ruin everything.  I ended up losing my cool and told her to go to he'll and quit talking to her. 

I agree  it's hard being in a family with someone like this,  but it seems the alternative might be just as bad now that kids are involved.

[Notwendy]

Those who have gone through a divorce are in a better position to advise but even so, the pros and cons are probably different for each situation.

I think it is OK, and even important for you to consider yourself in this decision. To sacrifice yourself for your wife's well being "for the sake of the children" is also depriving them of an emotionally present father.

That was the reason my father had for not leaving my BPD mother. He was correct in that at the time, she'd have gotten full custody of us as it went to the mother. Times have changed now and this isn't always the case but you may have to take a stand for your rights to how much you would get.

Being that my mother is low functioning, that would not have been good for us kids. But for other reasons, he decided to stay even after we left home.

Yes, it was hard on him, and also for us kids. We are in a better situation thankfully as we have our own families and homes and don't live with parents. But it was not easy for us to observe the dynamics between them.

This is not an easy decision.

[Sluggo]

Was married 18 years.  After year 8, divorce was threatened often with her taking off wedding ring and putting on nightstand for months amoung multiple verbal threats   I would acquicese eventually changing my behaviour (letting go of friendships, family relationships, etc).  Not one item I 'gave up' was huge but it was a death of a thousand cuts.   By the end of 18 yrs I was an empty shell.   I ended up leaving the home to live filing for divorce shortly after a short temp stay at apartment.  I had 7 kids at home.  So so hard. 

7 years post divorce...  I am back to my old self, although losing kids in divorce , my ex gave up all responsibility of kids within a year of final decree and gave them to me.  Relationship with youngest 4 is great.  Oldest 2 is still severly damaged ( extreme alienation), and third oldest is awkward still.  I believe a bit part of that damage was because the 3 oldest saw the years of verbal and some physical abuse I allowed my ex to say to me.

Sluggo

[zondolit]

I agree  it's hard being in a family with someone like this,  but it seems the alternative might be just as bad now that kids are involved.

This was an agonizing decision for me, but once I made the choice to divorce, I knew it was the right one for me. And the children. I am so sorry my children (and all of us) have to go through divorce, but now they have a stable, safe place with me at least half the time and I can be the parent I want to be instead of parenting under constant duress. The dysfunctional marriage no longer takes so much of my mind, time, and soul.

I often asked myself what I would want my children to do if they were in my situation, and the answer was: leave the marriage.

Each situation is different. I could not have made the decision to divorce on my own--it was too momentous and took too much courage. It was only with the support of therapists, family, friends, and even my pastor that I felt secure enough to make the decision.

[notacarguy]

This was an agonizing decision for me, but once I made the choice to divorce, I knew it was the right one for me. And the children. I am so sorry my children (and all of us) have to go through divorce, but now they have a stable, safe place with me at least half the time and I can be the parent I want to be instead of parenting under constant duress. The dysfunctional marriage no longer takes so much of my mind, time, and soul.

I often asked myself what I would want my children to do if they were in my situation, and the answer was: leave the marriage.

Each situation is different. I could not have made the decision to divorce on my own--it was too momentous and took too much courage. It was only with the support of therapists, family, friends, and even my pastor that I felt secure enough to make the decision.

This is helpful for me, thank you. Gives me confidence that I am making the right decision.

[livednlearned]

Divorce talk coming up again but seems more serious this time. 

What's different this time?

Anything in particular making it feel more serious?

[LifewithEase]

mikejones75093

Your experience resonates with me.

My uBPDw has threatened some sort of divorce, taking the kids, separation, getting court order to remove me from home... etc. our entire marriage. The first time was in our second year of marriage +12 years ago.

Many years ago our MT said clearly to her "Do not ever threaten divorce. It is toxic and harmful." The MT never saw the BPD. My wife didn't (doesn't) have the emotional aptitude to understand this.

Subsequently, when I met my current T, in the second session she said point blank that my uBPDw isn't going to leave. "She would have done it by now." "I see many capable women divorce successfully but these are BPD bluffs." It opened my eyes and world to BPD bluffs. Lots of work has gone into this because it is a HUGE part of walking on eggshells.

Imagine living a life where you're constantly doubting, worrying, or not stable with a large foundation of your life?

I don't want to sound cynical but after years of learning and my own work, there is a good chance she will divorce. There is this concept that after so much "detachment" they need to amp up the dysregulation and abuse so that leads them to "discard."

Recently, the bulk of this year my wife has taken off her wedding ring. I can tell she is using to get attention, faux empowerment, passive aggressive meanness. As a daily non-verbal threat. I have not and will not acknowledge it. Will not play into it.

Her fingers. Her ring. Her choice. Not my dysregulation.

[mikejones75093]

Well she actually filed.  Found the charge on my card today.  When I asked her about it all she did was say she was so loyal to me, she gave me everything, she did everything.

When I brought up her yelling, screaming,  blaming everything on me, making up things I never did just to get mad.  Her impulsive over spending.

She even tried to tell me one of the times she raged at me never even happened.

I'm so upset I can't tell if this is a good thing or not.  I was mad at her for the past few days I haven't spoken to her, so I can't tell if this is for attention or not.  Tried to tell her let's work it out and she said no. I'm lost at this point.  Don't want to tear my family up and screw up my kids.  This seems like it will be really bad for them.

[Notwendy]

 Don't want to tear my family up and screw up my kids.  This seems like it will be really bad for them.

bein

I am sorry to hear you are going through this. I think at this point, the best thing you can do to protect your kids, and yourself, is to consult your own lawyer.

As the adult child of a mother with BPD, either way, BPD mother's behavior affected our family. My father didn't leave our mother, but her issues were still the focus of the family dynamics. It was not a calm or happy family experience. I have read here that for some posters who did divorce, there was the chance to provide some sort of calm environment for the kids when they had them. I think posting on the "conflicted" board will get some responses from some of them who have gone through this.  I think both paths have their own pros and cons but if she's intent on divorce, you may not have the choice of which one.

[mikejones75093]

I'm just lost.  It's never gone this far in the past, but I have also never been so upset about her behavior that I stopped talking to her for 3 days either.  I can't tell if it's an attention grab or for real but it has jolted me.

If we go through this who knows what she will say through the divorce.  I'm afraid she will make all kinds of things up to make me look bad.

[Notwendy]

That's understandable. I think it's all the more reason to consult a lawyer for your own protection if she makes unfounded claims. Hopefully some of the posters who have gone through this will share their advice.

[mikejones75093]

After she went off telling me how she was amazing and all that I told her what our counselor said about the bpd.  She acted like that meeting never happened and is really mad now

[Notwendy]

I understand. I have observed my BPD mother's behaviors both with my father and with her children, and then other people as well. BPD affects all relationships.

Her emotional issues have been a well protected family secret. The worst thing anyone could do was to suggest that she has any issues or speak about them to anyone. Confronting her with her behavior results in her being very angry.

BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most, so while it may feel she does this mostly with you ( as her closest connection), it's with all relationships to some extent because it's a disorder that affects relationships.

The suggestion to contact a lawyer isn't because you want the divorce. It's a defense move- protect your assets, your custody rights, and from her false allegations. At least get the information you need to do this should she proceed further with her divorce plans. Maybe she will change her mind and maybe she won't- but you will know what you need to do, and have a lawyer in the event she follows through with it.

[livednlearned]

I'm just lost.  It's never gone this far in the past, but I have also never been so upset about her behavior that I stopped talking to her for 3 days either.  I can't tell if it's an attention grab or for real but it has jolted me.

It's possible it's neither. She may be flooded with intense emotion. Fearing an even worse abandonment than the silent treatment, she may be retaliating or beating you to the punch, thinking that's what you were teeing up to do yourself. People with BPD often experience a nearly existential fear of abandonment, or being alone.

3 days of not talking is really tough in a relationship. For someone with severe abandonment fears, the silent treatment may have felt like a type of annihilation. In Patricia Evan's book on verbal abuse, she describes the silent treatment as a form of abuse worse than name-calling.

I understand the desire to not speak for days. It's also possible that silence had more of an impact on her than yelling would have and she is manifesting that pain by consulting an attorney.

It's hard to wrap our head around BPD patterns when we're in extreme pain and it's understandable if you are hurting too much to try and communicate with her.

However, to Notwendy's point, it's a good idea to consult with an attorney because these things can get gnarly quick if your wife consults an aggressive attorney. You need to know how things work where you live to avoid missteps. My attorney didn't advise me to empty our bank accounts but she kind of did. She simply told me that she had clients who came to empty homes and there is not a whole lot judges or lawyers can do expect ballpark a number that is never high.

Whether you consult an attorney or not, observe whether your wife is returning to baseline. Does it look like she paid for a consultation or is it a larger amount for retainer? My guess is it's the former.

There are recommended ways to help bring someone emotionally dysregulated back to baseline but they won't work if you yourself are feeling flooded.

My ex wanted to reconcile after I filed for divorce. In the next breath was a description of the ways in which I was flawed.

It's too confusing to make sense of those conflicting sentiments when emotions are flooded.

[ForeverDad]

Don't want to tear my family up and screw up my kids.  This seems like it will be really bad for them.

I am sorry to hear you are going through this. I think at this point, the best thing you can do to protect your kids, and yourself, is to consult your own lawyer.

As the adult child of a mother with BPD, either way, BPD mother's behavior affected our family. My father didn't leave our mother, but her issues were still the focus of the family dynamics. It was not a calm or happy family experience. ... I think both paths have their own pros and cons but if she's intent on divorce, you may not have the choice of which one.

Your children are already impacted.  The walls have ears, so to speak.  At the least they can sense the dysfunction in the family.  If it continues, then it will be hard for them to know what is normal versus abnormal, functional versus dysfunctional, since all they experience is the abnormal and dysfunctional.  And worse, when they grow up and seek their own adult relationships, they're at risk of choosing examples they're familiar with, someone like dad or someone like mom.

Though divorce feels so disastrous - it did to me too - it may be a way for the children to live at least a part of their lives in a calm and stable environment with the reasonably normal parent, free from the flying monkeys, discord and reality twisted into crazy perceptions.

[Notwendy]

What we'd consider a normal emotional response to some of their behavior may be something else to them. We should not have to walk on eggshells, but one of the frustrating aspects of BPD is the inability to get some resolution of an issue or some understanding of the other person's feelings. Even a slight to BPD mother could be the crime of the century to her in the moment.

I can fully understand your being too upset to talk when your wife's behavior is outrageous. I think pwBPD see things from the victim perspective. Sometimes I might mention some friendly advice. She hears this as invalidating and as if I am telling her what to do. When she's angry and feels hurt, she tends to do hurtful things in return.

I think the lawyer is a good idea as you don't want to be caught off guard with being served and your joint account emptied. It's not that you want a divorce but when someone has the potential to take this too far, you need to protect your assets and your custody rights.

[ForeverDad]

I recall when my then-spouse got super angry with me...

This is yet another reminder that anything not fully in our control is going to vanish or be sabotaged.  Leaving a large sum of money in a joint account when separating is just inviting the other spouse to raid the cookie jar.  Joint bank accounts and especially joint credit cards are risky.

In my case, I did have my paycheck going into our joint account.  But when we went together, I bought a car and she thereafter refused to sign her rights notification in the standard J&S waiver from my 401(k) account, they would not issue me the loan I had planned on.  I had to rush to a bank and get a personal loan at a much higher rate.  While there I had the brilliant idea to open a personal checking account and changed my auto deposit to there.  Oh boy, did she howl and rage for me to undo it, but I told her I had to because she refused at the last hour to sign the standard acknowledgment form and hence blocked my 401(k) loan.  Mind you, she had accompanied me to look at the car and help me with driving to get both cars home.  Two months later the police got involved and that was the end.  I didn't have much money, but my paycheck was safe and it was easy to call the credit card companies and cancel our cards to the other's credit accounts.  Fortunately no joint credit card accounts.

When our marriage of 15 years was nearing its end with her flaming out, she went with me when I replaced a car but a few days later she flatly refused to sign a simple 401(k) loan J&S acknowledgement as required by law.  Lacking that signature, I couldn't get that loan so I had to rush to a bank to apply for a loan.  While there I opened a checking account and moved my paycheck there, the bank's instructions.  Yikes, what a scene it was when she found out.  To her it didn't matter that she had nearly sabotaged my car purchase, she demanded I put my paycheck auto deposit back in the joint account.  Meanwhile she moved into our preschooler's room and locked herself inside at night, and did other things to make it quite evident it was too dangerous for us to stay together.  Did my changing the deposit cause The End?  No, if it wasn't that, then it would have been something else.  And that's the point.  If I hadn't set that boundary then, however small it was, I would have continued my appeasing ways and perhaps not saved myself when it all did come crashing down one weekend a few months later.

[Joaquin]

Those who have gone through a divorce are in a better position to advise but even so, the pros and cons are probably different for each situation.

I think it is OK, and even important for you to consider yourself in this decision. To sacrifice yourself for your wife's well being "for the sake of the children" is also depriving them of an emotionally present father.

That was the reason my father had for not leaving my BPD mother. He was correct in that at the time, she'd have gotten full custody of us as it went to the mother. Times have changed now and this isn't always the case but you may have to take a stand for your rights to how much you would get.

Being that my mother is low functioning, that would not have been good for us kids. But for other reasons, he decided to stay even after we left home.

Yes, it was hard on him, and also for us kids. We are in a better situation thankfully as we have our own families and homes and don't live with parents. But it was not easy for us to observe the dynamics between them.

This is not an easy decision.

This is an unrelated question and feel free not to answer if it’s too personal. I have an uBPDw and I can’t help but wonder if our kids will inherit it. It sometimes gives me pause at the thought of having more kids. Did any of your siblings inherit any of your mom’s BPD?

[Notwendy]

Thankfully none of us have BPD. I think we have all struggled in different ways due the dynamics in the family.

So how are we kids different? Children come into this world with their own temperaments. Also, disordered parents assign different roles to children. Just as they can split to paining someone black or white, they also can do this with different children. I am the scapegoat child, a sibling is the golden child. While this may appear to be better for the golden child, in our family, the golden child is more enmeshed and had a more difficult time separating as an adult whereas for me the transition to adulthood was easier.

I can see the emotional effects of having a BPD parent, but we are self aware adults, worked with counselors on the family issues, been in 12 step ACA programs. We are employed, capable of having stable relationships. Just as you fear your child may have BPD- one of my fears was - would I become like my mother? But therapists have assured us we do not have BPD.

I think an important insight was also about my father's role in the relationship. I perceived my mother as the "problem" and my father as the good guy victim. A counselor suggested that I was co-dependent, something I found puzzling as I was actually more independent and on my own since childhood. This is different- it's emotional codependency. It's not obvious- here's a highly educated and functional person who supported the family- and my mother was the dependent person. But once I looked into this, through looking at my own behaviors, I realized that my father- as enabler, rescuer, caretaker, walking on eggshells, and agreeing with my mother- was also a part of their dynamics.

As kids, we knew to not behave like my mother and we didn't have BPD behaviors- but we learned from our other role model too- he certainly had some amazing traits- responsibility, work, education, and being reliable...and also co-dependent. Something to consider.

[Joaquin]

Thx so much for this thorough reply. Really helpful. We just had our first separation talk last night. Idk what’ll happen but when I imagine us divorced I have a small fear that I won’t be able to protect my daughter emotionally in the future if I’m not always there. My uBPDw isn’t explosive but can develop very strong negative emotions based on perceived slights and can carry a lot of quiet anger towards others. I think she’s a good person underneath and I know she loves our daughter and has so far been a great mother, though her anger has been getting the better of her lately when our daughter doesn’t cooperate. Idk if you know the answer, but the other question I’m wondering is whether and how I should tell our daughter about her mom’s BPD in the future if we’re divorced. I feel like it’s wrong in a way, like a betrayal of good faith coparenting, but I’ve also been advised that it’s important to tell kids so they can understand their relationship with their mom. Would I tell them not to tell their mom? I know I’d be very upset if she told our kids I have an undiagnosed serious personality disorder.

I don’t think I’m codependent bc I absolutely love being alone and am extremely independent (one of my traits my wife sees as a major threat of abandonment/rejection). But I also guilt myself really hard to give more than I should, so idk what that might fall under.

Thankfully none of us have BPD. I think we have all struggled in different ways due the dynamics in the family.

So how are we kids different? Children come into this world with their own temperaments. Also, disordered parents assign different roles to children. Just as they can split to paining someone black or white, they also can do this with different children. I am the scapegoat child, a sibling is the golden child. While this may appear to be better for the golden child, in our family, the golden child is more enmeshed and had a more difficult time separating as an adult whereas for me the transition to adulthood was easier.

I can see the emotional effects of having a BPD parent, but we are self aware adults, worked with counselors on the family issues, been in 12 step ACA programs. We are employed, capable of having stable relationships. Just as you fear your child may have BPD- one of my fears was - would I become like my mother? But therapists have assured us we do not have BPD.

I think an important insight was also about my father's role in the relationship. I perceived my mother as the "problem" and my father as the good guy victim. A counselor suggested that I was co-dependent, something I found puzzling as I was actually more independent and on my own since childhood. This is different- it's emotional codependency. It's not obvious- here's a highly educated and functional person who supported the family- and my mother was the dependent person. But once I looked into this, through looking at my own behaviors, I realized that my father- as enabler, rescuer, caretaker, walking on eggshells, and agreeing with my mother- was also a part of their dynamics.

As kids, we knew to not behave like my mother and we didn't have BPD behaviors- but we learned from our other role model too- he certainly had some amazing traits- responsibility, work, education, and being reliable...and also co-dependent. Something to consider.

[Notwendy]

For reference, I am middle aged, and so for my parents, most of their marriage was at a time when BPD wasn't well known and there was no internet. I didn't know anything about BPD and probably my father didn't either. My mother was in and out of mental health care, probably with different diagnoses but that wasn't ever discussed.

I think it would have been better for me to know -at the age where I could understand what mental illness is and for me that was early adolescence. I think what caused more problems was the secrecy and denial and the presenting BPD mother as normal. We were not allowed to ask about her behaviors or say anything about them. When I was a teen, my mother told me I was the cause of any problems and also the cause of issues between her and my father. When I went to college, I believed my family would be happier when I wasn't living at home. Of course that wasn't true but I didn't know that at the time.

There's also a cognitive dissonance that happens as kids become more aware and see something is different but nobody is explaining why. I knew something was different about my mother but it was like the Emperor Has No Clothes in our house. By high school and college, I was "looking for my mother" in psychology books but it wasn't in the books at that time.

I think young people are more open to discussing mental illness and it's all over TV and the internet. I think in time, your kids are going to figure this out on their own. This is my own personal opinion but I think it's best for them to hear it from a counselor and that they will need counseling to learn how to deal with their mother- whether the two of you stay together or not- to preserve their relationship and not have them believe false stories about themselves or their mother. I also think this avoids any triangulation with you and their mother.

My kids are young adults now, but by adolescence they could see for themselves that grandma had issues and they saw me try to navigate that relationship. They know that I seek help from counselors and 12 step groups. I am open with that because I want them to see that it is OK to seek help if needed. By their adolescence I told them about BPD. I had boundaries to protect them but if grandma did or said something, I wanted them to know it's not their fault.

I hope this helps you gage what to do.

[Joaquin]

Very helpful. Thank you.

For reference, I am middle aged, and so for my parents, most of their marriage was at a time when BPD wasn't well known and there was no internet. I didn't know anything about BPD and probably my father didn't either. My mother was in and out of mental health care, probably with different diagnoses but that wasn't ever discussed.

I think it would have been better for me to know -at the age where I could understand what mental illness is and for me that was early adolescence. I think what caused more problems was the secrecy and denial and the presenting BPD mother as normal. We were not allowed to ask about her behaviors or say anything about them. When I was a teen, my mother told me I was the cause of any problems and also the cause of issues between her and my father. When I went to college, I believed my family would be happier when I wasn't living at home. Of course that wasn't true but I didn't know that at the time.

There's also a cognitive dissonance that happens as kids become more aware and see something is different but nobody is explaining why. I knew something was different about my mother but it was like the Emperor Has No Clothes in our house. By high school and college, I was "looking for my mother" in psychology books but it wasn't in the books at that time.

I think young people are more open to discussing mental illness and it's all over TV and the internet. I think in time, your kids are going to figure this out on their own. This is my own personal opinion but I think it's best for them to hear it from a counselor and that they will need counseling to learn how to deal with their mother- whether the two of you stay together or not- to preserve their relationship and not have them believe false stories about themselves or their mother. I also think this avoids any triangulation with you and their mother.

My kids are young adults now, but by adolescence they could see for themselves that grandma had issues and they saw me try to navigate that relationship. They know that I seek help from counselors and 12 step groups. I am open with that because I want them to see that it is OK to seek help if needed. By their adolescence I told them about BPD. I had boundaries to protect them but if grandma did or said something, I wanted them to know it's not their fault.

I hope this helps you gage what to do.

[livednlearned]

After she went off telling me how she was amazing and all that I told her what our counselor said about the bpd.  She acted like that meeting never happened and is really mad now

If you feel comfortable, let us know how things are going.

It can be hard to address both angles. She might be bluffing, in which case there's one path. She might be serious, in which that path involves protecting yourself.

A lot of us found ourselves doing both and it's really tough emotionally.

[mikejones75093]

As much as this isn't my fault, it is.  I should have just confronted her when all this started and never went quiet on her.  I was so angry with what she did, and taking time to think it over ended up making it worse.

Well the other night we started acting normal again so I figured her emotions had passed.  This is normal for her, 1 week a month she will find something no latter how small to go crazy on me about then it passes like a tornado and she's in an amazing mood.   I still think they have passed because we are communicating normal but she called me today to start asking about how she needs to go about finding a house.

I don't know if me getting over being mad and trying to work it out reinforced her behavior so she's still going trying to get something out of me.

Either way I feel like I lost.   I'm not ready to blow up my family and finances right now and staying together feels like the best option.

[LifewithEase]

I think about this ALL OF THE TIME.

My uBPDw has [unspoken] serious mental wellness issues with her father and his siblings. It is not discussed. AT ALL. It has been alluded to exactly 5 times in +12 years. 

And years later when I was trying to learn more from my brother-in-law [who married into my wife's sister] trying causally explore, while hanging at the grill, he surprised me by saying my wife's mother is the bigger concern.

Sidenote: my mother-in-law actually tried to commit suicide as an adult.

This is an unrelated question and feel free not to answer if it’s too personal. I have an uBPDw and I can’t help but wonder if our kids will inherit it. It sometimes gives me pause at the thought of having more kids. Did any of your siblings inherit any of your mom’s BPD?

[LifewithEase]

Joaquin,

This really truly resonates with me.

...when I imagine us divorced I have a small fear that I won’t be able to protect my daughter emotionally in the future if I’m not always there. My uBPDw isn’t explosive but can develop very strong negative emotions based on perceived slights and can carry a lot of quiet anger towards others. I think she’s a good person underneath and I know she loves our daughter and has so far been a great mother, though her anger has been getting the better of her lately when our daughter doesn’t cooperate...

wondering is whether and how I should tell our daughter about her mom’s BPD in the future if we’re divorced.

[LifewithEase]

MikeJones75093

I hear ya. I am constantly debating the rub...just this week.

- I should confront her to establish boundaries, improve communication

but

- I need time to nurse this emotional hangover she's given me after crazy making

and

- I need time to process; filter out the false narrative, amazingly convincing circular logic; and the double binds

and

- I'm too just exhausted

but

- if I don't confront her is it just "reinforcing her behavior?"

As much as this isn't my fault, it is.  I should have just confronted her when all this started and never went quiet on her.  I was so angry with what she did, and taking time to think it over ended up making it worse.

Well the other night we started acting normal again so I figured her emotions had passed.  This is normal for her, 1 week a month she will find something no latter how small to go crazy on me about then it passes like a tornado and she's in an amazing mood.   I still think they have passed because we are communicating normal but she called me today to start asking about how she needs to go about finding a house.

I don't know if me getting over being mad and trying to work it out reinforced her behavior so she's still going trying to get something out of me.

Either way I feel like I lost.   I'm not ready to blow up my family and finances right now and staying together feels like the best option.

[ForeverDad]

A susceptibility toward PD behaviors and perceptions MAY be due to heredity.  It's also possible there may be a combination of factors.  A large factor seems to be the family environment.  A parent or other major person in the child's life may negatively influence the child.

That said, it is often termed a generational issue and the wise course is to deal with the issues - whatever the causes - with knowledge, compassionate insight and practical strategies to reduce whatever risks there may or may not be for the children and future generations.

This is one of the reasons it has been said here that divorce is not such a bad thing when one of the parents is acting-out so harmfully dysfunctional... distance apart from the discord, even if only for portion of the child's life, allows the child time away so normalcy and stability can have more positive impact for the child.

I could not imagine ever divorcing, not until my very parenting was put in jeopardy.  I was surprised, the divorce proved to be a healthy action overall, considering the circumstances.

This is an unrelated question and feel free not to answer if it’s too personal. I have an uBPDw and I can’t help but wonder if our kids will inherit it. It sometimes gives me pause at the thought of having more kids.

I hope I answered your inherit question above.  I know, there is no single answer.  We do the best we can.

However, should you have children - or have more children?  That depends.  Is your spouse in meaningful therapy and applying it in perceptions, behaviors and life?  If not, then things will likely continue worsening.  (And No, having children doesn't resolve or fix dysfunctional issues, rather it complicates everything.)  If there's the slightest possibility a divorce is in your future due to the marriage's dysfunction then why have children - or more children?  At least avoid it until you know things really are getting better long term.

[Notwendy]

There are also learned behaviors and learned coping strategies that might "look" like BPD. They've been referred to as "fleas"- probably not the nicest term for that. I think it's inevitable that some behaviors are learned because parents are role models. Some behaviors could be there but through counseling, changed if the person does not have BPD. As I mentioned before- the non BPD parent models behaviors too- such as enabling, walking on eggshells.

Family patterns can be "inherited" not through genetics but due to these learned behaviors being familiar. How we are raised has an influence on who we choose for romantic partners. The dynamics where there's a parent who has BPD are very similar to dynamics where a parent is an alcoholic. This has made ACA groups helpful- and "adult children of dysfunction" is under that umbrella too. The intergenerational family patterns are topics in that program.

Forever Dad mentioned the topic of an environment for the kids that can role model a different family dynamic. That would also mean if someone remarries- they choose a spouse who doesn't have BPD. That's an incentive to do some personal work-counseling- on one's own part in the dynamics- in or out of a relationship- it can help the current one- even if one separates- if there are children involved- there's still the need to communicate with each other- and can help with future relationships.

[livednlearned]

Well she actually filed.  Found the charge on my card today.  

Did she file for divorce, or did she consult with lawyer. If it's a few hundred dollars it may be she just consulted with one and is considering options.

If it's a retainer, she is further along the path.

she called me today to start asking about how she needs to go about finding a house.

To be candid, you're both probably a bit crazy right now.

Talking about divorce is like holding a lit bomb. It's hard to stay grounded.

If she's threatening divorce and taking action, this is going to be an emotionally rough stretch for you.

Did anything happen that wound her up? I'm not suggesting there's fault here, only that you have a goal (stabilize the marriage) and might have to come around faster than she can.

I don't know if me getting over being mad and trying to work it out reinforced her behavior so she's still going trying to get something out of me.

Sometimes lawyers can keep conflict going. She may be getting some validation from this person. A good lawyer will try to be impartial but some will fan the flames (better for business).

Things have hit a flash point for you two. You're probably the one most capable of being the emotional leader right now. You mentioned being over your anger. What's something you two do together that felt close?

It's like a break up. You have to become the guy she fell in love with.

Either way I feel like I lost.   I'm not ready to blow up my family and finances right now and staying together feels like the best option.

You probably won't get a whole lot of help healing from her right now. It's better to get that from a therapist so you can focus on what the relationship requires. She has one foot out the door so it's more like relationship recovery and you deserve to be validated from therapists or here since your wife won't be able to provide that.

People on this board tend to lean toward divorce so keep that in mind. If I were in your shoes I would take her actions seriously and make sure I knew how things worked where I live. People who are a few steps ahead in a divorce tend to come out with better outcomes. You're a step behind and need to at least catch up to where she is. Doesn't mean you have to get divorced, it just means you gather information and level the playing field. You probably stand a better chance of preserving the marriage by learning how things work. That way you can explain to her how her financial situation will change down to the dime. She cannot look for a place to live without knowing how to pay for it, for example.

Meanwhile, be your super great self and catch her by surprise. She wore you down with meanness and abuse and thinks she knows who you are. She's wrong. You're a confident guy with great kids who did his best and likes himself. Make her curious about what there is to like.

It's worth a shot.

[Joaquin]

Thanks for this. It helps to hear that divorce was positive for your children. The reason for having more children would be so my daughter has an ally in life. And because at least so far, my wife is a good mother and is very concerned with our daughter's feelings and how things affect her. But if that changed it would certainly make me rethink things. Compromising my daughter's emotional development is not something I can tolerate.

A susceptibility toward PD behaviors and perceptions MAY be due to heredity.  It's also possible there may be a combination of factors.  A large factor seems to be the family environment.  A parent or other major person in the child's life may negatively influence the child.

That said, it is often termed a generational issue and the wise course is to deal with the issues - whatever the causes - with knowledge, compassionate insight and practical strategies to reduce whatever risks there may or may not be for the children and future generations.

This is one of the reasons it has been said here that divorce is not such a bad thing when one of the parents is acting-out so harmfully dysfunctional... distance apart from the discord, even if only for portion of the child's life, allows the child time away so normalcy and stability can have more positive impact for the child.

I could not imagine ever divorcing, not until my very parenting was put in jeopardy.  I was surprised, the divorce proved to be a healthy action overall, considering the circumstances.

I hope I answered your inherit question above.  I know, there is no single answer.  We do the best we can.

However, should you have children - or have more children?  That depends.  Is your spouse in meaningful therapy and applying it in perceptions, behaviors and life?  If not, then things will likely continue worsening.  (And No, having children doesn't resolve or fix dysfunctional issues, rather it complicates everything.)  If there's the slightest possibility a divorce is in your future due to the marriage's dysfunction then why have children - or more children?  At least avoid it until you know things really are getting better long term.

[Joaquin]

I'm really sorry. I think I know how you feel not feeling ready to blow up your family and finances bc my uBPDw also talked about something like separation for the first time this weekend -- she couldn't handle my emotional limits and felt "trapped" by my inability or unwillingness to meet her needs. It put me in a really bad state, terrified for our daughter and for our finances bc I can't afford to finance 2 homes (wife doesn't work) but I also can't be away from my daughter.

I let things calm down a bit and I consoled my wife as she cried while communicating my acceptance of whatever might happen including separation (I drew on my own fantasies of being alone and happy to find strength here) and reiterated that I care about her, which brought us to a somewhat more positive note. Then she saw me crying the next day and comforted me, after which it felt like our guards were all the way down. We shared some mutual empathy and even talked about how to keep things peaceful and avoid conflict. Things almost snapped back to normal from there and the rest of the weekend was happy.

If you have a way to get your wife's guard down (remember, pwBPD are desperately trying to survive and constantly protecting themselves from difficult emotions they can't manage in healthy ways), maybe you can work your way back to feeling like you're on the same team. Then again, BPD is no small obstacle so it may be out of your control. I really hope it gets easier for you.

Well she actually filed.  Found the charge on my card today.  When I asked her about it all she did was say she was so loyal to me, she gave me everything, she did everything.

When I brought up her yelling, screaming,  blaming everything on me, making up things I never did just to get mad.  Her impulsive over spending.

She even tried to tell me one of the times she raged at me never even happened.

I'm so upset I can't tell if this is a good thing or not.  I was mad at her for the past few days I haven't spoken to her, so I can't tell if this is for attention or not.  Tried to tell her let's work it out and she said no. I'm lost at this point.  Don't want to tear my family up and screw up my kids.  This seems like it will be really bad for them.

[mikejones75093]

Yes its terrible.  We got along for about a week and now something set her off today and she hates me again.

She is making emotional impulsive financial decisions that are going to bankrupt us and I don't know how to communicate this with her.  She doesn't want to hear the facts.   Now she has to "think" again and us saying she's an idiot for "taking me back"  I just don't know what to do

[ForeverDad]

Have you read our topics on Boundaries?  PwBPD resist boundaries.  They won't listen to reason.  So really, the boundaries are on us.  As in, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  See?  Of course, it is a little more complicated than that, but that's the gist.  Your stance, your response is the boundary.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0

How is it she can bankrupt the family?

Does she have access to joint bank accounts?  That's fine, just have separate personal accounts for your paycheck and other funds.  Then just transfer over money for appropriate expenses.

Do you have joint credit card accounts?  That's tougher because when you try to close them the companies may refuse to close them until they're paid off and predictably the other spouse will keep making charges.

Also, if there are inheritances, then you must keep them separate from other accounts.  Once they're commingled with marital accounts or used for marital assets, that merging or use changes them from your money to marital money.

I did a few things that made my separation simpler financially, mostly quite by accident.

(1) Long before, I had wanted her to get her own credit and so while she was working she slowly built up her credit line.  We each had our own credit accounts but let the other be cardholders also.  What happened when we separated was that I canceled my stbEx's card on my personal credit account and I cut up the card I had on her credit account.  It was remarkably simple.

(2) We always had a joint bank account.  But a few months before our big separation, I had needed a new automobile.  We drove together to see a dealer's vehicle, I bought it, she didn't want to sign so it was legally my vehicle.  Well, I had planned to get a 401(k) loan as I'd done before.  My work's 401(k) required me to get my spouse to sign a J&S clause.  Just paperwork to document a loan that impacted the obligations of the account if I died or left work before the loan was repaid.  Standard boilerplate.  Just a signature.  She flatly refused.  Dealer was irate!  I went to my mortgage bank and applied for a loan there, at a higher interest rate of course.  Their requirement was that I had to open an account there and have my paycheck go there.  Oh my, what ranting and raving when she found out.  She demanded I keep my check going to the joint account.  She didn't care that it was her refusing one acknowledgement signature that had caused the change.  And I refused to undo it because that was one of the conditions of the loan.

(3) I still had auto insurance in my name and was paying for both vehicles but I learned that if her car wasn't "garaged" where I lived, the company would notify her to obtain her own different account.  They took that weight of "what do I do?" off my shoulders.

When we did separate my car, my new bank account, my paycheck and my credit card were unaffected.  Sure, she drove a paid for but jointly owned car and we had joint mortgage on our joint house but that was handled during the divorce.

[Notwendy]

Impulsive financial decisions can have a big effect.

This was an issue between my parents. I was aware of it since being a teen ager. I think my father's income was solid- we were not wealthy but we had enough. It seemed as if we had two economic levels in the same family though. Our basic needs were met but the rest seemed to go to BPD mother for whom money didn't seem to be a consideration. Designer clothes, shoes, vacations, whatever, while the rest of us were frugal and budget minded. The financial strain on Dad was obvious.

My father planned well for their retirement. He passed away several years ago. Since his passing, BPD mother's spending has put herself into financial peril. We have tried to stop this, to advise her, but this has no impact. Reasoning with her doesn't seem to get through to her.

I think this relationship to money is emotionally driven and not logical. I think it's another "dysfunctional" relationship where, in the moment, emotion overrides logic. There's a logic to money- math. It's a number. If money in is less than money out, that's a problem. Somehow this doesn't register with BPD mother. If she wants something, that's her focus.

From my own experience, trying to reason, use logic, math, with someone who acts on emotions, this isn't going to work. You need to have some safeguards on your finances. All adults should have some freedom of spending money within their budget - but the larger sum of money needs to be kept safe from impulse spending.

[Joaquin]

Oof. This is starting to explain some of the arguments I’ve had with my uBPDw over money. She’s nothing extreme but her spending logic is based on what she wants now without necessarily factoring in the longer term financial consequences or how it fits into our budget. To her credit she does stress over money and at least talks about reducing spending, but something wasn’t connecting and this may explain it

Impulsive financial decisions can have a big effect.

This was an issue between my parents. I was aware of it since being a teen ager. I think my father's income was solid- we were not wealthy but we had enough. It seemed as if we had two economic levels in the same family though. Our basic needs were met but the rest seemed to go to BPD mother for whom money didn't seem to be a consideration. Designer clothes, shoes, vacations, whatever, while the rest of us were frugal and budget minded. The financial strain on Dad was obvious.

My father planned well for their retirement. He passed away several years ago. Since his passing, BPD mother's spending has put herself into financial peril. We have tried to stop this, to advise her, but this has no impact. Reasoning with her doesn't seem to get through to her.

I think this relationship to money is emotionally driven and not logical. I think it's another "dysfunctional" relationship where, in the moment, emotion overrides logic. There's a logic to money- math. It's a number. If money in is less than money out, that's a problem. Somehow this doesn't register with BPD mother. If she wants something, that's her focus.

From my own experience, trying to reason, use logic, math, with someone who acts on emotions, this isn't going to work. You need to have some safeguards on your finances. All adults should have some freedom of spending money within their budget - but the larger sum of money needs to be kept safe from impulse spending.

[Notwendy]

Yes, my mother's decisions are based on emotion and pwBPD have difficulty with regulating emotions. When she wants something, she wants it immediately and emotionally acts as if she's going to perish from that want and it needs to be fulfilled now. It's similar to an addiction craving, or perhaps a starving person who wants food so badly it's all they can think of until that feeling is filled. But this feeling comes from their own difficult emotions. You can "feed" it but not satisfy it for long. Logic doesn't register in these moments.

I understand the concerns about not divorcing. So if this isn't someone's choice and their BPD spouse is making financial decisions based on their feelings, I think the only boundary that can stop these intense emotionally based decisions is if they can't access the money somehow. I know that marital property is joint, but if there is any way a part of your income can be protected, consider this. Also I would suggest speaking to an elder law attorney/finances for the elderly to see what options there are to protect your retirement plans. You may think it's too early for this, but if there's a 401K savings, IRA- account, you can learn if there are any ways to safeguard it.

[mikejones75093]

We have joint credit lines and she over spends a lot, and I mean a lot.  When I bring it up and show her the math I'm just insulting her earning power.  She spends twice what she makes.

We have had a few changes with jobs and I am now self employed.  It's a 3 or so year plan to get things back but I saved enough to get us through this  easily.

Now she wants to move somewhere else.   She wants to over pay for less of a house plus get a higher rate.  So downsizing to a much more expensive payment.  She doesn't care, apparently it's what's right.

We don't qualify for anything right now because of my recent employment change but she's just dangerous enough to go sign a ridiculous lease and try to take the kids.

[Notwendy]

This has been a constant situation in my parent's marriage and they were from the era where "wives didn't work". My father couldn't control it. He went into debt over it- and this is on a solid income.

My BPD mother just called me up to explain why she wants to spend her money on something every one is advising her not to. I think she calls me up to try to justify her wishes, but I don't even try to reason with her, as there's no point.

 Fortunately, she won't be in dire straits when she depletes her savings as Dad set up a pension/annuity fund which provides a decent amount for her each month but it's below what she's spending now. She will have her basic needs met, just not all her wants. You would be doing all of you a great service to set something up like this- including your children, as we are grateful that she won't be without any income at all.

There needs to be some boundaries on this kind of spending to avoid financial problems

[Joaquin]

This is all really eye opening. Thank you all bc I had completely let this go. Wife doesn’t work and I work 2 jobs. She’s high functioning and sees herself as frugal, so when I would bring up how I dont feel safe with her spending logic she’d successfully kind of argue and FOG me into accepting that she is a responsible person, and over time I’ve just completely let go of all my former budget plans etc. bc I don’t have the bandwidth to carry that stress. We’ve been spending way more than I’m bringing in but it mostly medical so I try to regard it as necessary and I saved enough in my former life to mask it for now. But she admits that she has a bit of an Amazon addiction and keeps jumping from one expensive health experiment to the next without fully exhausting the last one.

Anyway, all this is to say that I let it go but this thread is cautioning me to keep an eye on it again.

[Notwendy]

It's emotionally driven spending. My BPD mother justifies it- because it feels that way to her. Dad also didn't have the emotional bandwidth to continue these arguments either - he just let it go. I don't blame him. We have tried to reason with her and she gets very waify and acts as if we are depriving her.

Seeing my elderly BPD mother get herself into financial jeopardy is upsetting but she does what she wants with it.

[Sluggo]

We have joint credit lines and she over spends a lot, and I mean a lot.  When I bring it up and show her the math I'm just insulting her earning power.  She spends twice what she makes.

I lowered my credit limit on my card which is how I kept from overspending.  This happened post separation but not divorced at the time.

[kells76]

MJ75093, you've been going through these divorce threats for a long time. It sounds exhausting and stressful -- like sure, maybe it's a bluff again, but if it isn't, there's a lot to do on your end to protect your kids and finances. Not a lot of space to relax.

How old are your kids now? How have they been doing with the conflict?

[mikejones75093]

Haven't told the kids yet.  They know mommy yells, they joke about it.

So I caught a glimpse of some unfiled divorce paperwork and she is claiming the reason is MY emotional abuse! And asking for a bigger share because of it.  I am so mad right now.

She didn't file anything yet but are you kidding me?  She runs around yelling screaming and threatening me for years and this is how she's going to do this?

[livednlearned]

If you're in a no fault state, the initial filing paperwork is insignificant. Often, judges don't look at it.

Lawyers in no-fault states treat what's in them like a way for clients to blow off steam.

Family law tends to set off fireworks and create a for/against mentality where someone wins and someone loses, except for those of us in high-conflict marriages and divorces, what we need is managed emotions, ours and theirs.

Your wife is projecting. She has BPD so that's a bit of a given. It's not easy seeing these things in a document but that Claim (and the counter claim) is legal theater for the most part.

It also sounds like she is splitting pretty hard.

[Joaquin]

As livedandlearned noted, this sounds like classic projection while splitting black. We’ve all felt our jaws drop to the floor as our BPD partners unironically accuse us of something they are egregiously guilty of with no self awareness. Lack of insight (into their own behavior) is a hallmark of BPD.

Also, because of their emotional dysfunction, even perceived or imagined slights can feel like historic persecution to them, so they’re usually being genuine about seeing us as abusive or persecutors even while we give everything to them and they walk all over us. They build resentment against us no matter how much we sacrifice ourselves to serve them bc they expect us to fill their bottomless pit of need and cure their chronic emptiness and we inevitably fail because that’s literally impossible. Their inability to manage their own difficult emotions makes them put that impossible task on us bc it’s the only way they can try to cope and survive, dysfunctional as it is.

My uBPDw has accused me of being mean when she’s 10x meaner, accused me of not caring about her needs when I sacrificed my health in 24/7 hypervigilance to serve her in what felt like emotional slavery, and confidently criticized  me of being harsh while painting herself as a gentle sensitive partner when she was aggressively controlling every aspect of my being and criticizing me night and day while I was drowning in so much FOG (and not yet aware of BPD) that I did everything she said with a smile in a futile effort to appease her and make my existence a little more bearable.

I’m really sorry mikejones75093, but plz know you’re not alone and plz meet with a lawyer asap to start protecting yourself. Just do a consultation, nothing to lose.

Haven't told the kids yet.  They know mommy yells, they joke about it.

So I caught a glimpse of some unfiled divorce paperwork and she is claiming the reason is MY emotional abuse! And asking for a bigger share because of it.  I am so mad right now.

She didn't file anything yet but are you kidding me?  She runs around yelling screaming and threatening me for years and this is how she's going to do this?

[mikejones75093]

So where I live you can claim fault and ask for a bigger share of the settlement. 

I'm sure she called her attorney and told her how amazing she is and how I've ruined her life.  That's what she normally does with our friends.

I'm at a loss.  If she files lies like that I won't even be comfortable being around her. 

All the books say don't take it personally but once it comes to blowing all the money and filing with courts she is dangerous.   Not ready to only see my kids half the time but I am so angry right now.

[Notwendy]

Maybe it would help to differentiate between taking something personally and taking steps to protect yourself. Her actions may involve you but are based on her distorted thinking and emotional needs which are about her, not you.

Let's say a robber is trying to steal your money. This is directed at you, and it's your money but is it personal? No, the robber is in need of money, it's not about you. You don't take it personally--- but you also take steps to protect yourself from being financially ruined.

When the book says to not take these words or actions personally- it means on an emotional level- don't assume it's about you or that it's your fault, or that if only you did something different, she'd feel differently. These are the words and actions of a person who has disordered thinking and poor emotional regulation.

You still need to discern what is potentially harmful and what isn't. If someone is upset and calling you names but not causing financial harm, then it's something you can choose to ignore. If someone is causing you financial harm, their motive is secondary. Even if it were personal to you, let's say you knew the robber and they wanted to rob only your money- you still need to stop them right?

With marital property- and divorce threats on paper, the idea of consulting a lawyer for information on how to protect your rights and your assets is wise advice.

[ForeverDad]

Haven't told the kids yet.  They know mommy yells, they joke about it.

I'm sure she called her attorney and told her how amazing she is and how I've ruined her life.  That's what she normally does with our friends.

So, knowing what she surely is claiming to others, how should you counteract her claims?  What did your private and confidential consultations with local lawyers tell you?

Claims are often ignored unless they're substantiated, though of course the fact claims are made does possibly have some amount of impact.  What if you had proof you're not the one creating conflict?  Even the neighbors may not step forward or they may not know what goes on behind closed doors.

I faced that dilemma way back when my divorce was looming.  She was at first contemplating, and later making, allegations how horrible I was.  I fretted that outsiders didn't know what really went on behind closed doors.  We didn't have today's fancy cell phones back then.  So I bought some voice recorders.  I eventually had three since I could never predict when they'd fill up or their batteries lost charge.  Oh my, I got documentation to defend myself, sad reality was court didn't care much, though the agencies surrounding the court did listen sometimes.

I never waved it in front of then-spouse's face, I was not trying to create an incident.  Sometimes she even taunted me to record, believe it or not.  However, i made sure I had this stance... "I'm recording myself, if others get recorded too, so be it."  This way you'd have documentation you're not the one creating scenes or inciting conflict.

I've been here since 2006 and never noticed anyone posting they got in serious trouble for recording.  However in all those years a handful here in very tense custody situations were warned by judges to not record the kids.  Judges don't want children caught in the middle of disputes.

[i-need-love]

1) BPD women tend to be very much concerned about various materialistic needs, financial security, luxury etc.
2) Another thing is, as someone has said in this forum, they choose to stay with just anybody than live alone.
3) They dream about having kids and a family, like all "normal" people do
4) They need men to use them in their everyday functioning (use them as servants to make their own life easier)

All these points are so important to them, that with time they mean more than friendship and sex. So I'd advise you:

1) Take care of your finances and make sure she doesn't make you go bankrupt. It's only when you're broke that she'd be ready to leave you, as you'd become useless in terms of supplying her material needs, fancies and a sense of security. Try and restrict her access to your money, talking to her about that is useless at the moment.
2) Ensure her you're not planning to leave her even when the children are gone, but that you want to stay with her. They are really afraid of being left alone in their old years.
3) Take care of your kids and do your best do be the best father in the world. Make sure to develop even stronger bonds with kids, invest you time and love in them.
4) Don't neglect your household and help her with hard housework.

If you do those things she can get mad, threaten you and say the most nasty things under heaven, but I doubt she's gonna leave you. She would need a practical replacement. And even if one day she does find her new prince (God forbid) make sure you set such high standards for him, that he will hardly ever be able to live up to your example. Protect your money, bond with kids, don't neglect the housework. This is what you can do. And maybe one day or just occassionally she'll be your friend and a lover.

[mikejones75093]

So she's not happy about where we live is the current excuse because she's never been happy.

So we have an amazing custom home bought before the market went wild and a very low interest rate.

She wants to move to a different city to a smaller non custom home that will actually cost us a couple thousand more per month because rates are high.

So keep the house and cut my losses but lose out on having my kids everyday or give in and screw ourselves just to see my kids everyday and at some point in the future she gets pissed about something else and we do it all over again. 

My decision is all about the kids and that's what makes it hard to decide

[ForeverDad]

Many pwBPD are dissatisfied with perfectly fine homes and always chasing that rainbow of moving elsewhere only to all too soon be disenchanted with that new home.  They can't run away from their issues.  If you appease her urge to move then in a few years she will decide something is wrong with that new house

Oh wait, she just filed for divorce while also wanting to move?  Why in the world would you be willing to buy a new house at a much higher expense while in the middle of a divorce?  This feels like a recipe for disaster, possibly a disaster for both of you but almost surely for you.

A thought.  Is your current home jointly owned?  Is your spouse working and contributing to the current home expenses?  What are the kids' age ranges, are they in school or preschool?

Since you're divorcing the house would be wonderful for you to keep, just buy her out at current equity calculations.  Probably there's not much equity to split in so short a time?  Then she could, as a divorced single parent, buy her own house, wherever.  Well, if she has credit and regular income.  Under no circumstances would you jointly own or jointly mortgage a new home for her.  That would be baking in future disasters.

Oh, but she just filed for divorce in your current county.  Oh, then you'd have home turf advantage.  If your lawyer is smart then you'd get a clause in your divorce that she can't move more than XX miles away, 50 miles sounds reasonable.  But if she wants to move that far away, 50/50 parenting would be very difficult, the kids would have to live near one parent or the other for schooling.  (If not currently old enough for school or pre-school, they soon will be, so plan ahead to avoid Gifting Away any potential Leverage now.)

However, she is free to move wherever she wishes, she is an adult after all and free to do what she wishes.  But... the kids would stay in the current area, with you.

[i-need-love]

ForeverDad is right, imho. If your wife is really BPD she's probably undecided and unhappy, constantly depressed and looking for something new to fill the void, pain and emptiness inside her. Most of the time complaining, seldom appreciative, very hard to persuade. She believes she'll find her rest and peace in that new house, but that might be the case just for a moment. It doesn't really matter what she wants in this respect, you're dealing with a 3 year old girl in an adult woman's body. You've done your job really great as a man, a father and a husband: you've got her a nice house, you've given her kids, you've provided for her needs and you've stayed with her, though she has stopped being the person that you fell in love with: a dear friend and a seductive lover. She should appreciate that, but she probably refuses to most of the time.

You've lost your friend and a lover. That's really tough, painful, horrible. You've been tricked, trapped and mistreated. If you cannot win her over, which you probably hardly can, remember about the kids. Make them your priority. Invest in them your love and time as much as you can and as much as it's possible in your situation. Do your best to bond with them. A good father for her kids is a very important thing for her and make sure any possible replacement she's dreaming about won't ever be able to live up to even half that level and standards of being a father as you are. If she's talking divorce she's thinking about your replacement, BPDs can't stay alone for too long. Make sure she's gonna have a really hard time finding anyone your level, especially as a father. Set the standards as high as you can so that if she finally decides to replace you she'll always regret that decision.

And if you keep treating her like an adult, healthy, mature, grown-up, sensible person you'll always rage and get mad at her trying to get across some seemingly obvious, simple and reasonable messages, while she'll blantly refuse to listen or accept them. If you start dealing with her as with a partially mentally disabled person (she is disordered anyway) you won't be that much furious when you meet this stubborn ass in her time and again.

You have fullfilled her needs in terms of kids, financial security, household and housework. You've lost your dream woman and your dream is gone, shattered. She still has some of her important needs supplied by you, even if you're no longer her prince and saviour. She probably does not supply any longer your needs and dreams as a woman. So she's in a much better position than you and it's still not enough for her. Whatever you do and no matter how hard you try, she might never be happy about you again.

Mind your own business as a husband. Provide for your family, bond with the kids, don't neglect the housework. Don't treat her like a doormat and a slave, i.e. don't treat her the way she treats you. I know it's not fair. But just make sure that if she keeps talking divorce and dreaming about your replacement she's gonna have a really hard time finding anyone like you. Knock this stupid dream out of her head and make her realise that her fancies are unrealistic. Make things as hard as possible for your imaginary replacement for her to see. You don't have to be super nice to her, just don't be too nasty and disrespectful.

She's a 3 year old girl with privileges of an adult. Don't let her ruin you financially. If she wants a new house let her buy it herself. You've done a great job in this respect, but the little girl ignores it, disrespects you, doesn't appreciate your effort. Tough. BPD is just a little girl that wants to order you about. No point reasoning with her. Set your boundaries. You've done great and that's all.

[Notwendy]

For i-need-love-

When I read your first post about what you think is the way to avoid divorce, it made me cringe a bit- because, I have seen that plan carried out - between my parents. Most of what you wrote sounds like what my father did. I agree- even if my BPD mother threatened to divorce, she'd have not ever found anyone who would have tolerated her behavior and catered to her feelings and wishes as much as he did. So yes- maybe he was an incentive to not leave her, but I also saw how this affected him.

I wonder if some of the recommendations you have for keeping a spouse with BPD from finding a replacement are things you wished you had done or feel you need to do. It sounds as if it might work, but from my own perspective- seeing my father attempt this for decades- doing these things out of fear of being left for someone else is not in the best interest of anyone in the family, and enabling someone with BPD is not in their best interest either.

I don't think there is one "best path" to take in these situation. Each one is going to have pros and cons, and also risks. Having boundaries involves the risk that she might be so dissatisfied with the relationship that she does find someone else. However, being in complete submission to her wishes to attempt to prevent this also risks you losing yourself. I really don't know what the best choice is, but I have seen your plan and it's a difficult one too. While it may have succeeded in my mother not being able to find a better replacement, it had its own set of challenges.

[i-need-love]

I'm not sure if what I've suggested is a way to prevent divorce, as we have very little influence on the decisions that a BPD person makes. But I think that in such a horrible situation, when you are stuck with a person that no longer is your dear friend and lover, and there isn't too much you can do about it (for various reasons: kids and the like) one of the best things is to mind your own business and focus on those things which one can do and which one is supposed to do anyway.

I'm not advising to give in and be a martyr or a slave at all costs just to save the marriage. On the contrary, I'd not yield to the idea of buying a house in a different area if that should be too much of a burden for me and ruin me emotionally. No matter how much the wife should rage. But at the same time, I'd focus on doing those things I am supposed to do, and I'd do them the best I can. I cannot change other people and force them to be what I want them to be. But I can try and do my part the best I can, even with this additional revengeful or spiteful motivation, that if they decide to dump me and replace me, they'll regret it. The higher the standard I set for my potential replacement, the better. That would be actually my only revenge. But, hopefully, my efforts (whatever the motivation) should serve for the good of the family. Kids will definitely benefit. Focus on what you are supposed to do. Can you make BPD grow up and behave? It's exausting.

[Notwendy]

FWIW,  kids don't benefit from any kind of revenge or attempts to be so amazing that there's no possible replacement for you. When so much focus is on this effort, there's not much left over for your kids. And when your wife's "needs" are in conflict with theirs, you will default to hers.

If revenge and proof that you are the best husband ever is your goal, then this goal will preoccupy you. It's all about the emotional connection between the two of you that becomes the priority.

[livednlearned]

So she's not happy about where we live is the current excuse because she's never been happy.

So we have an amazing custom home bought before the market went wild and a very low interest rate.

She wants to move to a different city to a smaller non custom home that will actually cost us a couple thousand more per month because rates are high.

So keep the house and cut my losses but lose out on having my kids everyday or give in and screw ourselves just to see my kids everyday and at some point in the future she gets pissed about something else and we do it all over again.  

My decision is all about the kids and that's what makes it hard to decide

It's hard for us to know -- for anyone to know, including her -- whether this is headed for divorce.

She has filed and retained an attorney, and is also saying she wants a different house. She's implying that she wants to divorce because she needs this new house. Is that accurate?

When you say "that's what makes it hard to decide" do you mean hard to decide whether to capitulate to her demands to buy a new house?

It sounds like (from piecing together your posts) that there is a deal on the table to call off the divorce if you give her what you want.

Or (also from piecing together your posts) she is done. She has filed. It's over. And you may be on your back heels trying to catch up?

If so, it's possible that you two are in two different stages of divorce. She has processed it and is moving forward, making you think that this new home is a bargaining chip to stay married when it may actually be her way of experiencing a split. Hard to say.

In one scenario, you have a choice to make (buy the house or get divorced). You may find more skilled support on the Bettering board.

In the other scenario, it seems less like there's a choice to be made other than which attorney will you retain to protect yourself and your kids.

If it's the latter, my friend I would call an attorney stat.

[mikejones75093]

She retained an attorney but has not filed.

The new house is the chip, get on board with it or we're done.  She says non negotiable

I am a financial professional and just went self employed.  I won't even qualify for a new mortgage.   She says I'm just putting up barriers.

I finally told her ok go call a mortgage company and find out what we are approved for.   She won't do it.  The first thing they are going to do us laugh about my new employment situation and to come back in a couple years.  She won't listen to me, but she's high functioning and smart so she also knows I am giving good info.  I told her she can handle all the finances now and I don't want to know about it.  She won't do that either.

She spends money like crazy and she is telling all my buddies wives I spent it all and I screwed everything up.  Of course they are all telling her how amazing she is .  Dragging my name through dirt.  I know I shouldn't let this bother me but it does.

It's just never been this bad before, and she gave her attorney a sob story they ate up.

[livednlearned]

If you want to stay married and the chip is a fantasy, then it seems like your best option is to call a mortgage broker and invite your wife to go with you. Don't gloat when you're right. Ask her to sit with you and figure out a possible path to moving when it's financially feasible. Where does she want to live, what is it about the area she likes? Does she feel it might help to handle finances x way versus y way to make this dream a reality, etc.

It seems, though, that you two might be at two very different emotional stages. It's possible that your (probably very justified) 3-day silent treatment really did a number on her and she is splitting hard. Since she has BPD and you don't, the emotional leadership is going to fall to you.

I know it's not fair that we have to eat sh!t sandwiches but this is a serious mental injury she has and you want to stay married. You haven't called an attorney yet (?) and know that moving is financial suicide.

So the only path that seems even remotely hopeful is finding a way back to level ground and giving her something to help her get out of this hole she is digging for herself.

You can always meet with a lawyer for information purposes only. You can talk to a therapist about divorce. You can think about it here with us.

If you don't want it to happen now when you're conflicted, something has to give.

It's not going to be her.

[Notwendy]

I agree that meeting with the mortgage broker might be the « no » which takes that off you. Sometimes the actual facts are the best boundary.

[Go3737]

I filed end of Dec 2022.
Papers signed in May and filed in the court.
It could take up to a year to work through the system.

I wouldn't take it any more.

Now I have peace.
She is a walking disaster

[mikejones75093]

I have not consulted an attorney yet.  Just sounds like more money down the drain.

If she does file I will hire an attorney, and they are the ones that will get paid and win.

She keeps wanting to say all I care about is the money, but she is wrecklessly spending like it's nothing.  I keep bringing up the money because when we don't have any left that's when life gets real hard.  We have kids and are too old to be wreckless financially,  to her this means I'm all about money and greed.

She went back to work and I applaud that but she doesn't make as much as she thinks.   She spends well over her monthly income pre tax.  When I show her that math I'm just insulting her earning capacity.

She doesn't get it.  Who is going to pay that tab when the money is all gone?

She's never been happy and always has to be involved in chaos.  Our marriage counselor told me it's to keep her mind off focusing on her issues.  She won't go back to counseling after she was confronted about bpd.

She has all kinds of excuses why she doesn't like where we live, but bottom line we would be downsizing significantly and paying MORE money.  If we make this move we are going backwards.  Setting ourselves back probably 10 years.

[Joaquin]

I’m sorry MJ. Nightmare. Consulting with a mortgage broker may be a good idea. Also remember you can do a consult with a lawyer without paying a retainer or signing anything. It’s just a convo they might charge you $50

[Notwendy]

I don't think talking about it would be effective, from my own experience. This is emotional. Seeing numbers doesn't change emotions. You would need to take some kind of action, like an account in your name only.

[ForeverDad]

Obtaining legal advice is crucial for you to learn how you can save funds, defend yourself financially, learn effective strategies, etc.  As others wrote, consultations (for yourself, privately and confidentially) are relatively inexpensive. Simple "no brainers", so to speak.  And consultations do not require you to pay a retainer to hire an attorney.  It's far better than ignoring ways to find solutions and lessen the pain.

Have you read our topics on Boundaries?  PwBPD resist boundaries.  They won't listen to reason.  So really, the boundaries are on us.  As in, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  See?  Of course, it is a little more complicated than that, but that's the gist.  Your stance, your response is the boundary.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0

Does she have access to joint bank accounts? ...

Do you have joint credit card accounts? ...

If there are inheritances, then you must keep them separate from other accounts...

I did a few things that made my separation simpler financially, mostly quite by accident.

(1) her own credit vs joint credit...

(2) personal bank account vs joint bank account...

(3) my auto insurance...

When we did separate my car, my new bank account, my paycheck and my credit card were unaffected.  Sure, she drove a paid for but jointly owned car and we had joint mortgage on our joint house but that was handled during the divorce.

[Joaquin]

Out of curiosity, how are the finances working out? Do you have kids together? Those are my 2 fears and I think many others’ here

I filed end of Dec 2022.
Papers signed in May and filed in the court.
It could take up to a year to work through the system.

I wouldn't take it any more.

Now I have peace.
She is a walking disaster

[livednlearned]

It's not uncommon for pwBPD to have issues with spending (impulsivity). Talk of retirement accounts is for grown-ups.

The gist of the thread is about understanding how pwBPD and the family law system work. It's insurance. The same way your wife needs to look up the road a ways when it comes to finances, we do the same here when it comes to family law. Information = insurance.

Gather information. You can talk to lawyers without retaining them. Find out what you can do to protect yourself if things keep moving in this direction. Read Splitting by Bill Eddy.

I made financial decisions when I left that could've devastated my ex. Your wife might be getting counsel similar to what I received, which I didn't follow to the T because I'm reasonable. For example, some people will literally empty their house. Their spouse comes home to nothing. And there are literally no repercussions. Every item in my home would've been priced at whatever the going rate was on Craig's list, which is close to nothing even for new pieces of furniture.

I was also told I could drain bank accounts and move assets. It's almost looked at like taking an advance so that you pay your spouse when the time comes versus the opposite. If my ex had done this before I did, he would have had leverage and could thumb his nose at the divorce order and the only thing I would've been able to do was take him back to court to enforce the order.

Family law courts will find someone in contempt of court like it's a parking ticket so this can become a turn-style until you eventually get what was in the original order. That's what makes lawyers rich.

Whereas if you have the money and pay it out, then you're avoiding the expense of trying to get what is fair.

If you're a numbers guy and you understand your wife has a problem with money, paying a hundred dollars or so for a consultation is, like FD says, a no-brainer. It's protection for your kids, yourself, and even your wife.

Advice will be different depending on where you live -- this isn't legal advice, it's to show you how a half hour or hour of consultation can help you figure out ways to be a step ahead.

[Joaquin]

MJ, just sharing a thought that occurred to me which may not apply to you. I noticed your reluctance to meet with a lawyer even tho a lot of ppl here are recommending a consult to prepare yourself. I think it’s worth examining what’s holding you back. It could be a fear of escalation or even avoidance bc it’s terrifying to embrace an actual divorce.

Or it could be a martyr instinct, basically to unilaterally disarm and let her wrong you so you can lay in the rubble and let her see you bleeding so she can finally feel the weight of her actions. If that might be any part of it, just remember: there are no awards for suffering. Even worse, her BPD will prevent her from taking ownership or responsibility for her actions; she’ll probably see herself as the victim no matter how egregious and obvious her assaults against you. Many of us have lived through variations of that.

For you and for your kids, it’s time to find that inner strength to pull yourself away from her drama cycle, step up, grab hold of your basic human right to value and protect yourself and your kids, and take some difficult first steps in that direction. I say this with love and solidarity as someone who also struggles with every bit of this. I’ve mastered none of it, I still feel controlled by FOG at times, and the possibility of a split terrifies me for my finances and children. But I do draw strength and clarity from this forum, so I only want to offer you some of that.  

[mikejones75093]

I don't know that I have a reluctance to consult an attorney, I just hate wasting money.  She put down a retainer and her emotions are so up and down she might move on and talk about something completely different next week and bam a few thousand down the drain.  We aren't rich but we do ok and have the ability to set up financial independence for our family, which with children I think is the responsible thing to do.  She is trying to take over the finances and has absolutely no clue how it all works but in her mind thinks she does.  Just by listening to her talk I can tell she's making mistakes,  but I'm tired of being told I have some hidden agenda or giving the wrong advice .  Deep down, I think she knows I speak the truth, we have been together a long time, her emotions are just so out of whack.

I actually set up a consultation with an attorney late next week to see what my options are, and how I should act moving forward.

I gave in and told her ok we can move, but told her she needs to handle it all.   I already know there won't be an approval and she will hit road blocks, but this made her "happy" and gives me more time to get things in line.

Our marriage counselor told me she isn't happy with herself inside so she needs chaos in her life.  When things are peaceful she thinks about her childhood and insecurities, the chaos with other people drowns that out.

Every few years we go through a big thing like this, normally it'd smaller monthly things.  Hopefully she turns around quick and this is over with.  The way she is treating me now I'm leaning more towards divorce for my own peace of mind. 

She knows I don't want it so I think she keeps pushing divorce because it gets me "in line" when normally I don't budge.  Once I have my ducks in a row if she doesn't calm down I'll say fine file and we'll see how she likes that.  Once I do that I'm out for good.

[Joaquin]

It sounds like you’ve gotten on top of things. You have a plan and I hear confidence and security in your voice. This is messy business but I’m glad you’re at least in a place of relative control.

[ForeverDad]

Be very careful not to go too far down that expensive sell/buy houses rabbit hole she's chasing.  If it's joint ownership involved then make sure you don't sign anything that is an obligation you can't fully undo.

William Eddy wrote in his "Splitting" divorce book that it is wisest to get consultations from multiple lawyers.  If you meet with just one, you may not discern whether it is an experienced and proactive one with time-tested strategies.

Splitting emphasizes not just any lawyer is up to the task ahead.  Many are excellent for simpler cases if all that is needed is forms filing and hand holding.  While you may not find a lawyer with a shingle stating "I handle Borderline cases", when interviewing several and hearing their experience and possible strategies, you should get a feel for a short list of both experienced and proactive attorneys.  I recall that an apt question could be, "If you were facing a very high conflict divorce case like mine, who would you choose to represent you?"  That too can help narrow whom to choose.

There is a lot of education for tools, skills and whatnot here.  Browse our Tools and Skills workshops board here.

[kells76]

I actually set up a consultation with an attorney late next week to see what my options are, and how I should act moving forward.

  better to do the appointment and never need the info, than need that support/info and be months behind.

I don't know that I have a reluctance to consult an attorney, I just hate wasting money. 

I get it -- when we did 2 initial consultations, our budget was beyond tight. It was 110% a good use of money, (a) to see how things would really go in our area, and (b) to have some way to compare the 2 lawyers -- if we'd stuck with the first one, we'd be worse off (though he had a lower rate), but after meeting the second one, it was clear that #2 was way more experienced and had a better game plan -- worth every penny. For us, 0 regrets about doing 2 initial consultations.

Sometimes you get what you pay for with L's -- not always, but sometimes. Long run it's wasting less money to get someone assertive who understands your situation and will briskly wrap things up, but is a little spendier, than trying to get a "budget lawyer" who doesn't specialize in your area of conflict and drags things out.

You can also explore posting anonymously on a site like avvo.com or expertlaw.com, or some other "ask a lawyer for free" site. Zero cost (maybe use a burner email address and different user name), but not necessarily as good of advice.

[mikejones75093]

I got 2 recommendations from actual high end lawyers.  I'm going to meet with them both.

How do you handle the negative PR campaign?  One of my friends called me to say he heard from his wife allegations of Financial abuse and lying and all kinds of other stuff.  If he heard it I can only imagine who else she has told all of this to.

It sounds easy to say who cares what other people think but she is destroying my name in the community.   Ironically,  sometimes she feels I spoke to a friend about her and she gets angry saying I shouldn't do that, but she's running all over town telling everyone how horrible I am.

I'm so angry and upset now that I'm hearing all of this from friends.

[kells76]

I got 2 recommendations from actual high end lawyers.  I'm going to meet with them both.

  good plan.

How do you handle the negative PR campaign?  One of my friends called me to say he heard from his wife allegations of Financial abuse and lying and all kinds of other stuff.  If he heard it I can only imagine who else she has told all of this to.

It sounds easy to say who cares what other people think but she is destroying my name in the community.   Ironically,  sometimes she feels I spoke to a friend about her and she gets angry saying I shouldn't do that, but she's running all over town telling everyone how horrible I am.

I'm so angry and upset now that I'm hearing all of this from friends.

When your friends tell you what they heard, how do they sound? Like -- does it sound like they believe her, or is it more like they're telling you because they can't believe she's saying that stuff, and feel like you should know?

The "smear campaigns" are so hurtful. My H has been through it too (his kids' mom has many BPD traits, and married someone with many NPD traits).

One way to approach it is to think -- wouldn't it just be playing into the lies to blow up and rage when confronted with the smear campaign? "Oh, he's always so angry and controlling" and if you blow up with "No I'm not, I'm so angry she's saying that", that just "confirms" the lies.

In a way, pwPDs "want" you to be the villain. I use "want" loosely, but the gist I'm going for is that it can meet a pwBPD's emotional needs to occupy the Victim role in the drama triangle, and so they need a Rescuer/Hero (whoever they tell their sad story to) and a Persecutor/Villain -- in this case, you.

Reacting to the lies is a double bind -- it's "confirmation" that you're the bad guy. You've inadvertently given weight to the pwBPD's stories that the stories don't merit.

I'm not saying it's easy or fast, but one approach to the smear campaign is to prep yourself mentally ahead of time to have balanced emotions, low-keky body language, appropriate responses (not reactions), and brief one-line type statements that don't engage with the falsehoods more than they merit. That could look like:

Mutual friend: "She said you're financially abusive, controlling, don't let her have any money, have devil horns, swim in a bathtub of gold, blah blah blah"

You, with relaxed, low key body language: "That's sad that she thinks that, because it isn't true. You know me and what I'm like. Do you have any questions for me?"

This takes you out of the "defensive angry guy" role that she's trying to put you in, and instead, puts the ball in the court of whoever you're talking to, to take responsibility for understanding what's going on... if they choose to. You're putting out there an image of "my character is strong enough to stand on its own, and I don't have to defend who I know I've been for decades".

This is really hard stuff. H lost a long term friend who chose to believe the stories that the kids' mom told. However, over the course of a few years, many people in our small community watched and interacted with all of us and came to their own conclusions about who all of us are, which meant that many people chose not to have a relationship with Mom and Stepdad any more.

Play it one step ahead. Don't fall into the double bind of "angrily defending yourself". Show that you're above that, be "sad that she thinks things that aren't true", and keep living a life of integrity. There may be a winnowing process but you will not end up friendless, I promise.

[mikejones75093]

Some of the people she is telling her story to are parents on our kids sports teams that I don't know.  I'll just have to not care what they think.

The friend that called me said he told his wife to chill out,  that my wife did this to me a year ago.  I had completely forgot about that until he brought it up haha.  He admitted it seems more intense now but he said we are good.

It's just nuts, she's degrading like I've never seen before.  Normally it's a tornado, wild but blows away quick.   This one has been about a month.

I told her what she wanted to hear to buy some time and we were getting along until she got into an argument on Facebook with somebody today and now she's fired back up.  Her feelings got hurt over Facebook.  Completely ridiculous.   I'm done at this point.  If she files I'm out.  I won't give her the silent treatment and when she walked in I said hi and hugged her.  So I'll act normal but thats it.  She files and I'll pay my retainer.   Not fighting for it anymore.

[Go3737]

Out of curiosity, how are the finances working out? Do you have kids together? Those are my 2 fears and I think many others’ here

We split all income equally. We've taken our time to separate our joint accounts and continue using them for some expenses until all income streams separate. Then we close the joint accounts. We are lucky to make enough in retirement funds to pay rent, food and some extras. We are both working part-time at what we want to do for extra money.  As far as i am concerned, she made a very bad decision to continue drinking, not accept any help and continue to rage at me. After I left she says I am the abuser and she couldn't be happier. Never mind that I can see so much sadness in her eyes and she cries all the time but will not admit she made a mistake. I am doing well. I have peace. Although I didn't want this for the last part of my life. I still love her but cannot have a relationship with her.

[mikejones75093]

I sat down with mine and we came up with a financial plan and it all sounded good.   Thought we were on the other side of this.

Yesterday she got in an argument with somebody on Facebook, and even though my wife had valid points a few people called her dumb.  I know it's ridiculous, a Facebook argument.  Well now she's mad at me again, accused me of not really having a plan and it'd back to square 1 and who knows.  This whole thing is just a damn joke that somebody can get all worked up over nothing and use that to destroy your family's whole financial picture.  It's almost like she doesn't realize she's harming herself too.  She thinks she's going to go buy another house on her own and just move on.  I showed her the math multiple times and it won't work.  Just a total nightmare

[Notwendy]

I don't know if this helps but it's been a nightmare trying to reason logically with my elderly mother about how she handles her own money. Her response to my efforts that are on her behalf are that I am "being mean to her". She doesn't get it because her thinking is emotional. Numbers and logic mean nothing. IMHO, if your wife sees things like my mother does, then all effort to preserve your financial well being ( for the sake of your family) has to be with you and do what you can to protect it.

[mikejones75093]

I overheard she applied for a mortgage, so hopefully she comes to her senses when she finds out what I told her is true. 

This is such a damn whirlwind.  On one hand I think she's threatening this to get me to sell the house and move but not really going through it because her whole lifestyle will change.  Everything she's about she could no longer afford.  Would be a huge downgrade.   She has to know that right?


On the other hand she applied for the loan and retained an attorney.  It's just different this time.  Normally she spirals out of control and 2 hours later her mood is totally different.

[ForeverDad]

The down and up, hate and sorry cycles are common in the past... until it isn't up and sorry anymore, just down and hate.

In the final couple years of my marriage it was a constant yo-yo life.  Until it wasn't.  That coincided with our separation and subsequent divorce.  Now that our son is grown and aged out of court orders she still acts like it was my fault and I still have to be careful not to trigger her but it still happens.

The one thing that pwBPD (and other acting-out PDs) succeed well, for them, is boundary pushing, endlessly.  And the other's perceptions are for self interest and always full of emotions and blaming.  For us, it feels and is relentless.  If one pressure doesn't work, another will be tried, etc.  But one crack in your determination and boundaries, they'll notice and seize on it.  Then you end up having to restart your boundaries all over again.

Don't agree to any persuasions or pressuring to sign for co-ownership or co-sign for a loan/mortgage.  That adds/multiplies new risks for you.  Post-divorce your life must be yours and her life must be hers, as much as possible.

[mikejones75093]

The down and up, hate and sorry cycles are common in the past... until it isn't up and sorry anymore, just down and hate.

In the final couple years of my marriage it was a constant yo-yo life.  Until it wasn't.  That coincided with our separation and subsequent divorce.  Now that our son is grown and aged out of court orders she still acts like it was my fault and I still have to be careful not to trigger her but it still happens.

The one thing that pwBPD (and other acting-out PDs) succeed well, for them, is boundary pushing, endlessly.  And the other's perceptions are for self interest and always full of emotions and blaming.  For us, it feels and is relentless.  If one pressure doesn't work, another will be tried, etc.  But one crack in your determination and boundaries, they'll notice and seize on it.  Then you end up having to restart your boundaries all over again.

Don't agree to any persuasions or pressuring to sign for co-ownership or co-sign for a loan/mortgage.  That adds/multiplies new risks for you.  Post-divorce your life must be yours and her life must be hers, as much as possible.

I'm going about my daily life like everything is normal, but I'm going tired  of the unknown in the air.

Do I bring her in a room and say hey whats going on and how do we handle this or just keep going about my day like nothing is wrong?

[Sluggo]

I'm going about my daily life like everything is normal, but I'm going tired  of the unknown in the air.

Do I bring her in a room and say hey whats going on and how do we handle this or just keep going about my day like nothing is wrong?

It's hard because it is not normal even though it seems like the only path is too normalize it.  When I grew exhausted of normalizing, then I gave myself permission to act on what I knew was right.  That is, take myself out of the situation through separation and then divorce. 

Although it was the hardest thing I ever done, I left and I got back over time a healthy behavior.  Now 7 years removed, I cannot believe I lived like that for so long. 

Sluggo

[mikejones75093]

It's hard because it is not normal even though it seems like the only path is too normalize it.  When I grew exhausted of normalizing, then I gave myself permission to act on what I knew was right.  That is, take myself out of the situation through separation and then divorce. 

Although it was the hardest thing I ever done, I left and I got back over time a healthy behavior.  Now 7 years removed, I cannot believe I lived like that for so long. 

Sluggo

I told her we can move just to slow things down.  Completely caved.

I guess I have to get over the fact breaking up my family sounds terrible.  The more I think about it the more I can't believe I'm living like this.  Talking with her today she let me know how amazing she is and how she's done everything for our marriage and family then went on a long rant how terrible I am.  The whole time I just wanted to ask her if she really believes all thay crap but I kept it cool.  For me it's all about my kids and it just seems terrible to get my kids 3 days a week and pay attorneys tens of thousands.  Once she moves she'll still be miserable.   I'm honestly concerned that without me for her to take her crap out on, how will she treat the kids?  Will they be the new punching bag?  That scares me too

[ForeverDad]

I told her we can move just to slow things down.  Completely caved.

Does this mean the divorce is off?  Or just delayed until the less expensive house is gone and thee more expensive smaller house is wrapped and she?

Unless you go forward with this divorce, you caving was just a delaying action until the next time she decides the solution is to file for divorce and pressure you to move yet again.  All her problems will still be there but you will be even more financially strapped.

Sadly, staying together without her diligently applying meaningful therapy in her life and perceptions, this will not end well.

Rather than buy a more expensive house, try renting.  At least you wouldn't have 15 or 30 years of expensive obligations.

Really, at any point before you sell the house or buy the more expensive downsize model, you have the right to reassess your life and decisions and recant agreeing to a switcheroo.  After all, you as an adult have every right to reconsider prior decisions or capitulations.

Translation:  Just because you caved under pressure doesn't mean you have to stubbornly follow a path that you know doesn't fix her issues nor could end well.[/quote]

I guess I have to get over the fact breaking up my family sounds terrible.  The more I think about it the more I can't believe I'm living like this.  Talking with her today she let me know how amazing she is and how she's done everything for our marriage and family then went on a long rant how terrible I am.

Sorry, she hasn't changed.  She happier (for now) but not you (you're still terrible in her eyes.

Reality check:  If you're so terrible why would she want to stay with you, really?[/quote]

The whole time I just wanted to ask her if she really believes all that crap...

She has a mental illness, her thinking and perceptions are warps, it's all about herself and whatever it takes to find the end of that rainbow.  Despite being mentally ill, it''s not severe enough to get her committed to an institution but it is enough bad that you need to protect yourself and the kids.

For me it's all about my kids and it just seems terrible to get my kids 3 days a week and pay attorneys tens of thousands... I'm honestly concerned that without me for her to take her crap out on, how will she treat the kids?  Will they be the new punching bag?

Do you mean they're not emotional punching bags already?  Believe us, they surely are impacted.  After all, even if you try to minimize the incidents and relentless disparagement, "the walls have ears."  They know.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, alienation attempts, overall craziness, etc.  Over 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

[mikejones75093]

Does this mean the divorce is off?  Or just delayed until the less expensive house is gone and thee more expensive smaller house is wrapped and she?

Unless you go forward with this divorce, you caving was just a delaying action until the next time she decides the solution is to file for divorce and pressure you to move yet again.  All her problems will still be there but you will be even more financially strapped.

Sadly, staying together without her diligently applying meaningful therapy in her life and perceptions, this will not end well.

Rather than buy a more expensive house, try renting.  At least you wouldn't have 15 or 30 years of expensive obligations.

Really, at any point before you sell the house or buy the more expensive downsize model, you have the right to reassess your life and decisions and recant agreeing to a switcheroo.  After all, you as an adult have every right to reconsider prior decisions or capitulations.

Translation:  Just because you caved under pressure doesn't mean you have to stubbornly follow a path that you know doesn't fix her issues nor could end well.

Sorry, she hasn't changed.  She happier (for now) but not you (you're still terrible in her eyes.

Reality check:  If you're so terrible why would she want to stay with you, really?

She has a mental illness, her thinking and perceptions are warps, it's all about herself and whatever it takes to find the end of that rainbow.  Despite being mentally ill, it''s not severe enough to get her committed to an institution but it is enough bad that you need to protect yourself and the kids.

Do you mean they're not emotional punching bags already?  Believe us, they surely are impacted.  After all, even if you try to minimize the incidents and relentless disparagement, "the walls have ears."  They know.

You are right. 

I'm delaying with hopes she moves on to something else, but this one is different.  Been going on about a month now and doesn't seem to get better.

Renting or buying still costs money to move.  We have too much furniture and too many dogs to even make sense of this all for her to temporarily feel better, but it's inevitable this won't solve her issues, and she'll be mad at something else.  Our therapist told me before she quit that she needs chaos in her life.  I lt helps her not think about her childhood.

My step son thanked me for coming into his life.  Said before me when it was just him and his mom she would beat him.  She's never been physical with me or the kids but she definitely screams.   Normally I can jump in and get her to yell at me instead  of them.  As my kids get older I notice a couple of them now like to yell and scream.  I just don't know how I feel not being there half the time.  She's very high functioning and presents amazing so I doubt any accusations of abuse would hold up. She even repeats things so many times around the kids thatbthey start to repeat it.  It's terrible living here, then my son tells me the same thing, don't even think he knows why it's terrible living here.   She dies that all the time.  Says all I care about is myself so my daughter started telling me that.

She told me she's moving and it's non negotiable then made dinner and started talking to me like things were normal.  We even took the kids to the park and she was smiling and talking to me.  How can anyone even act normal going through this? It's just nuts to me.

She actually applied for a mortgage but got a bad broker.  They told her she was pre approved and she reached out to a realtor.  I did the math repeatedly to make sure it wasn't a mistake on my part, and it's not.  She definitely does not qualify.

I set up an appointment with a counselor near me but that's a week out. 

[ForeverDad]

Normally I can jump in and get her to yell at me instead  of them.  As my kids get older I notice a couple of them now like to yell and scream.  I just don't know how I feel not being there half the time... She even repeats things so many times around the kids that they start to repeat it.

So yelling and twisting reality happens whether you're there or not. 

Staying - they're exposed to her all the time.
Leaving with the kids - they're only exposed to her some of the time.

Also, you're not setting a good example by appeasing and being manipulated.  It's like a war zone, constantly being overrun with skirmishes and brinkmanships.

She told me she's moving and it's non negotiable...

Pause a moment... You know that you can't negotiate with an emotional terrorist.

She actually applied for a mortgage but got a bad broker.  They told her she was pre approved and she reached out to a realtor.  I did the math repeatedly to make sure it wasn't a mistake on my part, and it's not.  She definitely does not qualify.

Are you a broker?  Remember 2008, the Great Financial Crisis?  What broke the camel's back was the real estate and mortgage bubble, loans that the government and system encouraged whether buyers were qualified or not.  And it's happening allover again.  Your math may be right, but everything is going in the other direction,as though swimming upstream.

Also, that broker was surely told you'd be one of the buyers.  The real question is, Would it go forward without you?  What real estate can she buy on her own credit and income?

It seems you're hoping against hope that someone else will say No to her.  Um, don't count on it.

[mikejones75093]

So yelling and twisting reality happens whether you're there or not. 

Staying - they're exposed to her all the time.
Leaving with the kids - they're only exposed to her some of the time.

Also, you're not setting a good example by appeasing and being manipulated.  It's like a war zone, constantly being overrun with skirmishes and brinkmanships.

Pause a moment... You know that you can't negotiate with an emotional terrorist.

Are you a broker?  Remember 2008, the Great Financial Crisis?  What broke the camel's back was the real estate and mortgage bubble, loans that the government and system encouraged whether buyers were qualified or not.  And it's happening allover again.  Your math may be right, but everything is going in the other direction,as though swimming upstream.

Also, that broker was surely told you'd be one of the buyers.  The real question is, Would it go forward without you?  What real estate can she buy on her own credit and income?

It seems you're hoping against hope that someone else will say No to her.  Um, don't count on it.

Yes yelling and screaming happens.  My step son that I raised told me to get the kids.  Said don't let them go with her.  He told me when I wasn't around it was bad for him.

She's already grooming the kids.  My daughter told me they are moving and mommy told her but she hasn't told me yet.

I'm trying to calm her down but yes,  you can't negotiate.  How sick.can she be to act like everything is completely normal like she's not about to end her 15 year marriage.

I am a mortgage broker,  and a very good one.  She got some young kid on the phone that has no clue.  She won't qualify.  It's not even close.  She's scheduled to go look at homes with a realtor this Saturday. 

She offered to basically give me everything with no child support.  I'm damn near tempted to take it.

[ForeverDad]

She is surely expecting you to "enable" her plans.  Ponder over all the things you've said, or may say, or may do.  You can't sign for anything that would enable to proceed either selling the current home (except to you) or buying a new home.

At some point you'll have to set boundaries, a firm "No" before she pressures you to go too far down her enabled road.

[mikejones75093]

She is surely expecting you to "enable" her plans.  Ponder over all the things you've said, or may say, or may do.  You can't sign for anything that would enable to proceed either selling the current home (except to you) or buying a new home.

At some point you'll have to set boundaries, a firm "No" before she pressures you to go too far down her enabled road.

I agree with you.  She's basically been in control since she hired an attorney.  I just can't decide if not seeing my kids half the time, and the possibility of some other guy being in my daughter's life is worth leaving the marriage.

She told the kids they are moving but she never mentioned it's without me.  My daughter was so excited to go look at homes. When we talked of course I've been a horrible person for the last 10 years and she's amazing and has done everything for me and the family. So now it's up to her to get her own house and show our daughter what hard work is and how to be independent and not controlled by a terrible man.

If I put my foot down and set boundaries I can't tell if she'll start to respect me or tell her attorney to file.  In the past when I did she got normal real quick.

And she seems way too happy and acting like everything is normal.  This is the worst crap I've ever gone through.  I was up all night.

Last week she took time off but we stayed local instead of going on vacation.  She was in a great  mood last night and this morning but found out her employer didn't pay her for the time off.  So she called to say it was my fault and thank me for ruining her vacation time and not taking her somewhere.  It's just nuts.   

So I'm trying to figure out if I set boundaries  that will probably make her file and if that's really what I want.

Or maybe I'm just acting weak letting her push me around like this

[mikejones75093]

I'm just at a loss and it's very upsetting to me.

She hasn't raged at all over any of this.   She is acting normal and happy, and when I confront her she doesn't get angry.  All she does is tell me she tried for 10 years, and for 10 years I've ruined our marriage and treated her like a second class citizen.   It goes in circled and of course I start defending myself.

I originally went silent on her for about 4 days that's when she filed.  So I'm torn between confronting her with the issues, even though she's acting like nothings wrong,  she's just moving and I'm welcome to come but she's not staying.

It feels like I'm just getting tossed aside.  10 years and adios.  She doesn't even seem emotional about it. 

So now with my pride I'm upset and pissed off, like why would I stick around for someone that doesn't care about me?  She's telling me this is what's best for her and her mental health.  After all somebody talked bad to her on Facebook again yesterday so she can't stay in this town.

My emotions are up and down.  After that conversation I have nothing to say to her.  We passed this morning and I walked right by her and didn't even look over.  I'm sure somehow this will come back to screw me but I just don't have anything to say to her. 

Basically, she's acting normal, I'm the one all emotional and up and down.  This script really has flipped.

I'm trying to figure out if I should act normal like everything is good with me or keep confronting her.