Boundaries and not taking BPD spouse insults personally

[EyesUp]

In my case, I am very happily divorced.  I've reconnected with friends and family.  I spend far more time doing things that I like instead of capitulating to no good effect...

Take time for yourself.  Be kind to yourself.  Trust yourself.

[livednlearned]

SO WHY DOES THE SILENT TREATMENT STILL BOTHER ME SO MUCH?

Patricia Evans wrote a book called Verbal Abuse and in it she writes that the silent treatment is the most severe form of verbal abuse because it erases you.

Codependency sort of stems from having a weak sense of self -- it's hard to have a good, solid, immovable, self-respecting sense of self when you've had an upbringing in which you were not validated nor taught how to regulate emotions, not to mention developing strong boundaries and having a healthy sense of who you were, warts and all.

If you have a weak sense of self, which doesn't exactly get stronger in a relationship with someone who is intent on tearing what little esteem you have into shreds, then being on the receiving end of a silent treatment can feel existential, almost like annihilation.

I found post-divorce that it was a process to piece myself back together. So things I "should" feel didn't match up with how I did feel. It feels awful to be ignored! Even when it's someone you might not mind ignoring you.

But the core of who you are is lovable. You deserve to be heard and listened to and learned from. Even someone who disagrees with you should see you for the full, lovable, whole, decent person you are.

It will take time to get there, most likely.

When I began preparing to leave, my ex seemed to sense a shift in me that to anyone else would be imperceptible. The last months were nearly intolerable and there are memories from that time period I still hesitate to revisit. Once you begin to give to yourself what you deserve to have, even if it's a scrap of self-respect, it may set off alarm bells in her -- she will sense something good happening to you and that is forbidden. Misery insists on company. It's possible she will give you more silent treatment if she perceives things are changing.

Do you have someone you can talk to during these spells? Would you find it helpful to share here when they happen and how you feel?

I mean, no one can tell you who you are in your core. Only you can do that. Only you can deny that experience, too.

The silent treatment can put you in front of a mirror where you have to look and see who is staring back at you, and whether that person loves you like you deserve to be loved. I think the pain we experience about being so let down by our selves is what makes the silent treatment particularly painful for those of us riding out really abusive relationships. We have so much rebuilding to do, not just from relationship damage but from FOO damage that goes back to early stages.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you all for your continued advice and support. I’ve reached this place both wonderful and scary. She laid into me about my lack of financial planning. This usually triggers me as her impulsive emotional spending (which I have enabled o own that) is a big part of it. This came in a text amd my usual response would be to whip off an indignant response. But I didn’t. Because I know- really know!- that nothing i can say or write can change the way she sees it and I don’t need her to see it my way for me to believe my own perspective. It was a real relief.

Today she was triggered and I went up and gave an hour of listening. On amd on about all the ways I’ve failed and disappointed and not shown up. Amd how I’m not trying now.

Some of what she says is accurate. I’ve owned it. Amd I can’t change the past. All of it is without any accountability from her. There’s no conversation just a one way dump while she cries and cries.

I know I’m leaving. I’ve hired a lawyer. I’m working with a coach on how to help the kids and set boundaries.

That’s all the context. Here’s the question. I k ow I can’t fix her. I can’t help her. The fact that I don’t know what to do or say to help her isn’t a character flaw. I can’t get her to counseling. I won’t enlist her friends help to encourage her - I’d have to tell them things that would be hard to hear.

I realize no one here can know but for those of you who have been through this - what happens to her next? After I leave? My hope is that I am enabling her and she’ll get help. What experience have others had?

I don’t k ow what to do with my compassion ifn not trying to act on it.

[EyesUp]

I can't predict what's next - no one can. But there are some patterns - many are well documented on this site - which might be instructive.

In my case, what happened in couples therapy was very telling: 

My uBPDxw (then, wife), was a predictably unproductive participant. "Participant" is not the right word, as she was not a reliable or honest participant in any way. More like saboteur. But therapy gave her a chance to flip the script, and she introduced the idea that I was financially abusive because I didn't give her equal access to all finances, all accounts. I raise this because it might be relevant to what you noted about your situation in your last comment.

My xw quit her job, promised to get a new one, but never did and yet continued spending - for three years leading up to the divorce. "We" racked up some debt. She would never agree to a budget or acknowledge a discussion re: practical limits for a household budget or personal spending. She has an MBA and certainly knows how to use a spreadsheet, but when I asked "what do you think about the budget I shared the other day?" she'd offer a range of deflections or redirects... "I didn't receive it, can you resend?" or "I couldn't open the attachment" or, finally "I don't know how to use excel" (right...).

Subsequently, her complete unwillingness to share responsibility for a family budget was reframed to our therapist as me imposing restrictive and abusive controls on her autonomy, when in fact she was abusing me (and our kids) by squandering our savings and refusing to participate in any dialog about finances or practical limits.

The therapist (this was the fourth therapist in 10 years) had no interest in exploring right or wrong, or getting to underlying issues - this one acted like a mediator, simply trying to broker some agreement - any agreement - this doesn't work when there's a PD in the process.

In this environment, I considered various theories about "some couples divide and conquer and manage things in various ways" and "what can we do differently" and "maybe I should give her more control" - all counter to my own intuition and common sense about the situation.  After all, I had maintained some separate accounts, and that was enabling me to keep our household afloat. Spoiler alert: during the divorce I learned that my xw had secret accounts I knew nothing about...  even though we filed joint taxes for years.

Ultimately many of the exercises and ideas presented here started to take hold:  From my journal, I recognized and accepted that her spending behavior was not new or recent - it had been going on forever. From dialog with my personal therapist, I saw that accusations are confessions, and that I was not the abuser. From reading others' accounts here, I recognized that my behaviors - avoidance, rescue, capitulation, etc. - were contributing to keeping both me and my xw trapped in reoccurring, unresolved patterns. And from my attorney, I realized that my journal, history of emails to my xw seeking agreement and cooperation, plus generally good financial record keeping would not be viewed as abusive by a judge - if we ever got to that point.

In your case, even if you take a long hard look in the mirror and recognize things you can do differently re: financial planning - will you be able to do it together, and stick to it?  Would changes in your behavior actually lead to lasting changes in the relationship, or in the relationship dynamic?  Or are the cries re: financial planning simply reflecting some other perception and unmet need (you mentioned spending) on her part?  I think you know the answer here... log this in your journal so you can refer back to it.  And the keep the journal someplace safe - i.e., hidden file or app with a strong password.

As for your other question: what happens to her?

In my case, there was no immediate separation. This was tough. However, about a week after filing, my xw started dating. Fortunately, she did not bring anyone home or expose the kids (at least not until after she moved out). This proved to be the greatest thing - as I had a lot of time with the kids while she was out almost every weekend, and her attention was elsewhere.

Her attempt to frame me as an abusive husband or father would not hold while she was readily entrusting the kids care to me while out dating and posting pictures of party time on social media...  I anticipated false accusations, and documented everything. I invested time with my atty to prepare for worst case scenarios, e.g., false DV claims. Fortunately, it never got to that point.  I was still up first every day, still making the kids breakfast, still giving the kids a fresh cup of coffee to bring to mom in bed.  I think these small gestures helped - with my xw and certainly with the kids.

Ultimately, we agreed to terms on the proverbial courthouse steps on the morning of the first pre-trial hearing, and the judge gladly accepted a motion to waive the hearing and use the time to sign off on our decree that same day. In our state, if there is no further motion, it automatically becomes decree absolute in 90 days, and ours stuck.

The things that served me well during the year between filing and the agreement:
- not moving out (this isn't a safe or available option for most - I was lucky)
- document everything (I kept a daily journal, plus a log of activities with kids - more actually, but these are the key elements)
- grey rock, all day every day.  dating new guy?  ok, have fun, hope he's a nice guy.
- focus on the kids
- focus on the divorce process
- use any time left to focus on work and maybe 1% for myself - hike, bike, friends...

Each day the light at the end of the tunnel gets brighter. I think the week or month after she moved out I experienced the best sleep of my life.  Whew.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you. It just helps so much to hear from others. It all helps me find a way to frame what comes next as something I can do, get through and have a life on the other side.

[livednlearned]

I realize no one here can know but for those of you who have been through this - what happens to her next? After I leave? My hope is that I am enabling her and she’ll get help.

What does your gut tell you will happen?

As for compassion, pour that into yourself and the kids. You've been through a lot and need every drop of compassion you can get. If it's still too hard to direct your compassion to you, shower the kids with it.

It won't go to waste.

[ForeverDad]

I realize no one here can know but for those of you who have been through this - what happens to her next? After I leave? My hope is that I am enabling her and she’ll get help.

Your spouse is an adult, so are you.  You will do what you have to do, for yourself and especially for the kids.  What she will do with her life once the marriage or relationship is over, well, that's similarly up to her.

You couldn't fix her while married, it probably won't improve after marriage ends.  Remember, with the adult relationship ended, all that is left is the custody and parenting matters.  However, BPD is a disorder most impacting to close relationships.  So distance apart may be a good factor.  Once you're apart both physically as well as legally then the discord and on-edge conflict may lessen over time.  Once my son was an adult and aged out of the system, it dropped more but anytime I'm around her I still have to be careful not to needlessly trigger her, she remains sensitive to me below the surface.

[AlleyOop23]

I am leaning hard on you BPD community people. I assume if you’ve been where I am you know how this help feels. It’s not like divorcing in the regular sad it’s over way. It’s that, but while carrying your kids through an emotional minefield while guilt Grenades are flung at you.

can’t talk to her about ANYTHING without a blow up so I’m placating her and frankly manipulating her to keep her at bay because I’m not ready to let all hell break loose. When I tell her I really can gauge how bad it’s going to be.  It could be really bad. She’s still harboring this hope I’ll fix it while she treats me like utter PLEASE READ and seems to genuinely believe that I should accept that treatment as my obvious and just desserts.

So I’m anxious. And guilty. She’s
Actually owning that she’s got hormonal and mental health problems and I’m bailing instead to trying. And that’s TRUE but what can I do? She’s critical and PLEASE READty amd blaming and shaming and cruel and absolutely cannot see it. She really can’t. She’s not bluffing she thinks she’s 100% justified in all things she’s done and said.

So I’m slow walking her when I’m fact i should be saying yes I am not trying anymore. I’m done. Amd yes I’ll talk to the kids without you and I’ll tell them.

Ugh. I am forgetting an inordinate amount of thjngs. I woke up at 130 amd couldn’t sleep. That almost never happens to me. I’m stressed.

Whatever advice or encouragement anyone has o could really use.

[ForeverDad]

Knowing that you can't fix someone who can't truly listen to you - due to the weight of her perceived emotional baggage of the close relationship - Just do the best you can.

One technique is to step outside the immediate situation that is sure to develop over the next months.  One way is to picture yourself a year or 5 years into the future.  Give yourself time to ponder without the predictable demand to "answer right now".  What would you look back and wish you'd done instead?  What feels so hard now might seem obvious when you pause to reflect or when looking back.

That's a perspective hard to achieve since you're in the middle of all the emotions and pressures.  But do try.  We also will do what we can to help, based on our years of collective peer support wisdom.

[AlleyOop23]

I’ve used this technique multiple times now. I am grateful for it.

[AlleyOop23]

I’m almost finished compiling all the information for the divorce to start.. My wife accused me of giving her the silent treatment and avoiding hard topics.  I sent her a text saying sincerely that I did not want her to think I was silent to try to punish her. I said for months every time I talk she uses it as an opening to criticize me. As for hard topics I told her I won’t do raised voices around the kids anymore. And she cuts me off and deflects. She can’t hear hard things she can only say them. I wrote it sincerely and gently pointing out I was writing it because she wouldn’t have let me finish. And now I just look at her when she tees off. I don’t engage. I’ve become impassive. I used to get thrown into doubt and feel guilt. Now it’s mostly restrained frustration I feel v

The reason I’m writing tonight is she’s falling apart. She doesn’t look well. She’s vibrating with anger. Her perimenopause symptoms are worsening. She had been excessive blood flow - she had to go to the ob gyn for help. It was a little scary. They put her on estrogen. Doesn’t seem to have helped her mood.

I’m worried about her. I’m worried about my kids. She’s a little harsh with our oldest now (13 yo girl). I used to believe that as a husband I had to do what I could to help. That set me up for a lot of abuse and unhappiness. I used to think I could help her, that I would. And now I’ve given up on us and on the false premise that I can “save” her.  I’m leaving out a LOT of constant criticism, blame and projection. This is hard kn me.

I can’t do or say anything to encourage her to get help or just talk to someone  - it’s actually counterproductive. It’s occurred to me she’s avoiding help in case it gets used against her. But when someone you care about is completely falling apart- who do you call? What do you do When you know it can’t be you? Just watch?

[AlleyOop23]

I’m writing to check in and get some context. My wife and I are living almost separately in the house as I prepare to file for divorce. She is more and more depressed. More time spent in her room. More withdrawal. When I talk to her about helping her getting her help it quickly devolves into “you should already know how to help me you shouldn’t have to ask” and “I’m
Depressed because of you and who you’ve been and your behavior and I don’t need help I needed a real partner” and it’s just a venting session and completely unproductive.

She is depressed. I don’t think k she’ll hurt herself. She lights up for the kids.

I can’t figure out, as she’s falling apart and simultaneously showering me with criticism - where’s the line of me being detached and accepting I can’t help vs I’m just ignoring a human being with apparent mental health problems?

[ForeverDad]

You can't live her life for her.  After all, she's an adult.  If you disturb her so much, then exiting her life as a spouse ought to reduce her complaints.  Ha, we all know logic doesn't work in these situations.  I too faced a spouse seemingly falling apart and blaming me for it.  And she refused counseling.  Though court eventually wrote she needed counseling, it was never ordered.

In the year before my separation my spouse was moaning and groaning about her life, sleeping in the guest bedroom, refusing to get out of bed to care for our preschooler until I left for work.  "I've fed breakfast to son, please get up so I can leave for work, I'm already late" and I would hear back, "Then leave, I'm not getting up until you leave!  Just go!"

As soon as we were separated and soon to be divorcing, she was totally the opposite.  All sorts of energy, the usual physical ills of course but she did not fall apart, not one bit.  Nearly 20 years later and she has work as well as owning her own small business.

Notwendy wrote this a few days ago.  "We were concerned how BPD mother would manage without my father when he passed. She did a lot better than we expected. You may also be concerned about how your wife would manage. I think she is probably more resourceful than you might expect."

[livednlearned]

You're living in really challenging circumstances. It's similar in ways to living with an addict. In both cases, the experience of being miserable is better -- more familiar? less frightening? easier? -- to making meaningful changes. With both depression and addiction the pressures of being accountable appear to be crushing. Adding to that, there are no guarantees, no clear path.

where’s the line of me being detached and accepting I can’t help vs I’m just ignoring a human being with apparent mental health problems?

It doesn't seem like what you've been doing is ignoring someone with mental health problems. She isn't coming to you asking for help, only to be met with indifference or worse.

Realistically, what options exist to help someone who is not able or willing to receive it?

[AlleyOop23]

Okay thanks. That’s a really good point. I’m not turning her away with indifference. I’ve told her I want to be there and I want help her. And that I need to be treated with kindness and respect. It seems so simple when you frame it that way. I’m not indifferent. I’m not uncaring. I don’t know why this all seems so confusing - trying to decide what is right.

[AlleyOop23]

It’s like I’m beating myself up because  I’m not a mental health superhero who swoop in with some great plan.

[EyesUp]

@OP

I hear you.  You're in unfamiliar territory.  Your instinct is to help.  Going against instinct doesn't feel right.

Perhaps there's a way to reframe this?  What if this instinct is more like muscle memory - it's a habit, but not necessarily a conscious or fully reasoned behavior?   Which means that with some practice, you can refine it, adjust it, change it...

Not swooping in to help or rescue does not mean that you're uncaring or callous or indifferent. It might mean the opposite - that you are respecting boundaries and providing space for another adult to become self accountable (vs. somehow accountable to you - even if that's not your intent).

Detaching doesn't mean that you stop caring - but it usually does mean that you don't actively participate the way a partner might.  This is precisely because you've decided to end the partnership.

While I was cohab'ing with my then stbx, I would religiously avoid hour long venting sessions about anything.  When my uBPDx was activated about D proceedings or stipulations or anything, I would simply say "I need to step away. Please put this in an email."  If she persisted or escalated, I would say "I'm unable to have this discussion within earshot of the kids, I'm sure you agree" - and usually that was enough.

In time, I noticed that a majority of crisis-level communications seemingly evaporated. My guess is that when my uBPDx realized, on some level, that raging at or even talking to a grey rock was working for her, she stopped doing it.

The lesson was:  She was never really seeking help, or understanding, or resolution - all those discussions were just about control, attention (negative or otherwise), or some other unmet need.

What you're feeling is normal - it's unsettling to go against an instinct or reflex.  But there is a chance to learn something new here - and the upside is:  You're not a bad person simply because you look after yourself or because you give your stbx the space to do the same. 

[jaded7]

“you should already know how to help me you shouldn’t have to ask” and “I’m
Depressed because of you and who you’ve been and your behavior and I don’t need help I needed a real partner” and it’s just a venting session and completely unproductive.

I can’t figure out, as she’s falling apart and simultaneously showering me with criticism - where’s the line of me being detached and accepting I can’t help vs I’m just ignoring a human being with apparent mental health problems?

She's reaching a critical stage of absolute confusion, and therefore frustration, it seems. Which leads to anger at you as a way to displace all of this from within here, onto you. Projection.

People wBPD have limited tool boxes and are armored with defense mechanisms that do not serve them, yet they have no way of letting go of them and interacting on a real human to human level with people who trigger them (their partners, ironically enough).

At least those are the conclusions I've come to. You seem to have come a long way, which is really impressive. You understand that it's not productive to engage in 'debates' about how you are wrong and 'bad' (no JADE). You understand you don't deserve this treatment and you can't change it. All very good.

Yet, you still have compassion for her and want to ease her suffering. What a profound place to be internally. It shows you have a good heart, but it was that heart, after all, that got you/us into the mess we were in. It's so hurtful and confusing.

I remember once asking my ex what she needed when she was home sick with a cold. I called and texted and cleared time to go get her whatever she needed, or to just come sit with her. I did this for two days straight, she constantly said 'nothing', I'm just resting. I even offered some ideas of what I could do, like run to the store for her, bring her some cold medicine, come and give her a back rub....I was trying to figure out what she needed.

She stopped responding and my messages went unanswered. Days later she contacted me and was angry at me for 'not taking care of her'. I reminded her that I had asked her repeatedly what I could do for her, even made some suggestions. She mocked the suggestions I had made and told me 'her friends don't need to ask, they just know what to do'.

[SinisterComplex]

It’s like I’m beating myself up because  I’m not a mental health superhero who swoop in with some great plan.

Don't put such unrealistic weight on yourself. That is not healthy. No one expects you to be a mental health superhero. Just be YOU. That is enough. Most importantly focus on you and create a plan for yourself.

I understand the frustration of course. Just continue to post and vent here and in time you are going to figure out what is best for you.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-