Actual text exchange..

[thankful person]

It is sometimes difficult to remember exactly what was said in order to recount conversations for analysis on here. I have transcribed mine and my wife’s text message exchange from earlier and would appreciate any input. This same conversation goes down fairly often over the past few months and is pretty much the same in person. In this instance my wife had a bad night, woke up snappy and then missed slimming world because she was running late. The reason we were texting was cos she was putting the baby to sleep while I watched the older children in another room. Note: the reason I missed the youngest’s birth was because my wife wanted her mother at the birth and me looking after our other kids. This was mostly because she didn’t want her mother looking after our other kids.

I started this text conversation in response to her sharing with me a Facebook post she wrote 9 years ago about how in love with me she was. Ok there’s the first revelation: I actually hadn’t realised I started the conversation (though she triggered it). Apologies for the length of it!

Me: Are you still in love with me?

Wife: Not as much as I was
The spark has gone

me: I still love you so much

Wife:  Doesn't feel it
I didn't even feel like you loved me when you came to see me at hospital after [new baby]
I was just there giving you yet another child

me: I was very sad to have missed it and it was a hard time cos the kids didn't want me. But you are the world to me and I want all of it I want you and the kids

Wife:  You didn't show me that...

me: I'm sorry I thought you knew I felt that way I said I was so proud of you you did amazing

Wife:  Again you didn't tell me that at the time

me: I'm so sad that you felt that way. I thought you knew I was so proud of you and that I love you so much
It feels like I love you so much and you're sick of me

Wife:  How would I know when you don't tell mel!
l am sick of you making no effort.. it's making me love you even less because you can't be bothered

me: I've been understanding I'm not good enough for you especially since [new baby] was born
It's not that I can't be bothered it's that I don't understand what you want me to do or say

Wife:  You don't bother trying

me: When you're having a go at me it's hard and not the right time and when you're ok with me I feel like we're just living our life as a couple and family and I know you're unhappy but I don't know what to do about it

Wife: No we're living a fake life just for the kids

me: I don't feel like I'm faking anything. I love you and I'm insanely attracted to you

Wife:  Again, you don't make me feel it

me: Are you faking it

Wife:  Yes
Not that I'm really faking as you know and the kids know

me: I don't understand why it's so complicated I thought we're best friends we’re in love we even get along quite well most of the time. I wish you could love me and accept me as I do you. But you want me to change and be something I'm not
You said in that post you fell in love with me for who I am. But I haven't changed

Wife:  How can we be best friends when you don't support me, comfort me or listen to what I want. I want the best sex life and that's not with you. You won't give that to me and you make me suffer

me: When I was in [my previous country I was living in - we met online but my wife is from my home country] I was always on about, I need to do the housework, I need to get to work. I'm still the same person

Wife:  You have changed..
[in our first home] we had lots of sex ‘til we didn't

me: I feel my confidence was crushed because you weren't happy. I want us to start again with this and so I can build up my confidence, learn what you like and be everything you want. But it's very difficult when we don't get much alone time

Wife: I feel it's far too late

me: But it's normal for couples to have a difficult time of it when there are babies everywhere. I know we can have sex not in
the bed but I do feel that's a massive issue that we're not in bed together. I told you I was so turned on just laying next to you. You may not need that but I need that physical closeness but I think you don't like it

Wife:  No I want verbal

me: That's what I struggle with. And I know many couples go to counselling together to help them communicate and understand each other better

Wife: I don't care

me: I don't understand why you don't think someone could help us. I think it's worth trying to learn how to communicate better

Wife: No
I don't believe there's a way forward

me: So what do you think we should do

Wife: You know we're together for the kids

me: And I'm here for you because I love you and I'd like us to be in love with each other again and live our lives together and be best friends

Wife:  Then make an effort because I see us only together for the kids

me: I honestly don't understand what you mean

Wife: That's it then

me: But I'm 100% dedicated to you and our marriage I just don't understand what I need to do or say

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

Well, take this as just my opinion- it's your relationship. Perhaps others will add theirs. Please also see that I am coming from the experience of being raised by a BPD mother and so allowing people to treat me poorly was the normal in my house. She treats people like they are doormats. Taking this "I will tolerate whatever you say or do to me" into all other relationships (romantic or not) - people will do just that. I wrote on the parent board about a group of women friends who acted like the "mean girls" in middle school to me. When I asked one of them why are they yelling at me, he reply was "because I can".

After a lot of work on my part, this doesn't happen anymore. A saying in our 12 step groups is "take yourself off the sale rack" and "we teach people how to treat us".

A while back, a domestic violence shelter was selling T shirts with the saying "Love Doesn't Hurt". This somehow stood out to me. My parents didn't physically abuse me. But they said they loved me and also were very hurtful to me. I did question that kind of love. When my BPD mother says she loves me, it's what can I do for her in the moment.

We use the word "love" in all kinds of ways. I think the love you are seeking is the kind of love that wants the best for the person. People also say "I love chicken".  Yes, chicken is delicious, it fill your stomach, it is pleasurable while eating it. But is it good for the chicken? When my BPD mother says she loves me, it's the same kind of love as saying she loves chicken. I am doing something for her at the time. Whether it's in my best interest or not is irrelevant to her. It has to matter to me, because she doesn't care.

Reading this text exchange feels sad, because you are just putting yourself out there for her, and she's stomping on you each time. And you keep on doing this. Why is she treating you this way? Maybe the same reason these "mean girls" were. I kept trying to be their friend and they knew they could do this. I was teaching them that they could treat me like that.

I think what is holding you back is fear of losing this relationship, and this is a big one. To balance this, you would need to have the self esteem to be able to take yourself off this sale rack and believe you are worth caring about too. I hope you would want to be more to your wife than her source of money and child care/house worker but if you do, you will have to have some boundaries about how you'd want to be treated. Understandably - this thread was right after she'd given birth and was hormonal but if this continues still, it's not something just related to the physical and emotional changes at child birth.

Natural consequences are what teaches us. We learn even in kindergarten that if we say mean things to someone, that child won't want to be our friend. If your wife can say or do anything to you and the consequence is you telling her just how much you love her, what incentive does she have to be nicer to you?

I'm not saying leave the relationship or do something drastic here. I just hope you will take yourself off the sale rack and believe you are worth more than the exchange in this conversation.

This exchange is too long. You don't have to endure your wife saying she doesn't care about you over and over.

Me: Are you still in love with me? ( this is a need based question, it's as if you asked her to kick you)

Wife: Not as much as I was
The spark has gone

me: I'm sorry to hear that. I know you've been through a lot. I'm excited for us with the new baby.

Wife:  Doesn't feel it
I didn't even feel like you loved me when you came to see me at hospital after [new baby]
I was just there giving you yet another child

me: I was sad to have missed it.

Wife:  You didn't show me that...

me: ( at this point, you have heard enough to know she's in a bad mood)
Ok honey, I hear you. How about we both get some rest? I'll call you tomorrow. Love you, Bye  and get off the phone.

[babyducks]

I started this text conversation in response to her sharing with me a Facebook post she wrote 9 years ago about how in love with me she was.

what do you think her motivation was for sharing the Facebook post?  really think about it.    why did she share that particular post with you?   was it an overture?    was it reminiscing?   was she happy when she shared it? sad? was she maybe apologizing for the bumpy start to the morning?

Ok there’s the first revelation: I actually hadn’t realised I started the conversation (though she triggered it).

if the same conversation goes down fairly often, I believe it is important to look at why you both have fallen into this verbal rut.  to me when a verbal rut develops it's not about what is being said but other issues that are not being talked about.

Me: Are you still in love with me?

I agree with NotWendy.    You asked her to kick you.     It was a rough morning. Things were rushed and out of sorts.   You weren't in the same room but communicating over text.   She sent a message that was emotional but hard to read.   just guessing, I would say her Facebook message was at an emotional level of 4 or 5 in intensity.    you came back with a message at the emotional level of 12 in intensity.   

Wife: Not as much as I was
The spark has gone.

and right on cue she is backing away, protecting herself from the vulnerability and intensity of the exchange.   I would also offer that she is, in a way, being honest.    after 9 years and several kids every relationship will have changed.   that spark? maybe call it the honeymoon phase, that's long gone, maybe she is missing it?   maybe this would be a good time to ask a question to find out what is going on with her?

me: I still love you so much

would you say this is validating or invalidating?   is your emotional intensity rising while her's is backing away? are you both equal on the emotional plane?

Wife:  Doesn't feel it
I didn't even feel like you loved me when you came to see me at hospital after [new baby]
I was just there giving you yet another child

 
why do pwBPD devalue?    is it because they are 'just mean' or is it a maladaptive coping tool to protect their fragile emotional state.   thankful person can't hurt me because I see how she is really a bad person who treats me wrong type thinking.  I am going to be strong and put up a wall here type thinking.

Wife:  You didn't show me that...

me: I'm sorry I thought you knew I felt that way I said I was so proud of you you did amazing

Wife:  Again you didn't tell me that at the time

again I agree with NotWendy - this is going on too long and its off the rails.  ask yourself honestly what productive thing could you see coming from this exchange?   where did you think this was going to go?  especially in the context of the day.

me: I'm so sad that you felt that way. I thought you knew I was so proud of you and that I love you so much
It feels like I love you so much and you're sick of me

Wife:  How would I know when you don't tell mel!
l am sick of you making no effort.. it's making me love you even less because you can't be bothered

me: I've been understanding I'm not good enough for you especially since [new baby] was born
It's not that I can't be bothered it's that I don't understand what you want me to do or say

thankfulperson, what a brave brave step to share something so deeply personal.   it really shows what a courageous person you are.   again I find myself on the same page as NotWendy.   this is sad.    this is painful to read.   we think you deserve better.   

can we look at this through the lens of the Karpman drama triangle?   who is the victim, persecutor, rescuer?   who is trying to move to the role of victim? and when? who has opportunity to move to the healthy triangle of coach, challenger, survivor?    and do they take it?

there is a lot in this post.   I would encourage you to continue to work through it.   still I don't want to overload the initial look at this.   I will say one more thing.   STOP asking her what she wants you to do or say.  just stop.  stop telling her you don't understand what to do or say.     think about all you have learned about BPD and how executive functioning and problem solving and emotional dysregulation works and then think about how this statement fits (or doesn't) with all you have learned.

'ducks

[thankful person]

Not Wendy and ducks,

Thank you for your replies, I really appreciate your honesty and guidance. I do wish my wife was my best friend but actually you guys are my best friends . So when she levels another accusation at me, “yet again you have made NO EFFORT today!” how do you suggest I respond? She actually did earlier and I did my, “mmm” response. She wants me to seduce her and make her feel loved, desired, wanted, supported. I know you say we’re not responsible for others’ feelings, but it’s not worth trying to explain this to her, is it? Do you say I should stop worrying about what it is she wants that is leading to these pretty constant accusations?

I just “failed” another “test” by choice. I’ve said before that my wife was recently always demanding I take off my wedding rings because “we’re not together!” A few weeks ago we got matching tattoos and I remember thinking, “ha! You can’t make me take that off!” And since then the rings have stayed on. But tonight she texted me, “I’ve taken both my rings off As my finger is getting really sore from heat and have heat spot under ring. Don’t want it to be open sore” And I texted back, “Ouchy I hope it gets better soon”. This was the WRONG answer because what I’m “supposed” to say is, “ok I’ll take mine off too until it gets better”. But I’m trying to focus on what I want which is to wear my rings and not do things just because she wants me to. What do you think?

[thankful person]

Another thing I struggle with is the texting at night. My wife puts all the children to sleep in turn then falls asleep with our eldest. Then I go in and wake her up and then I get up little baby for his final nappy change and then I go off to sleep in the spare room (partly because baby shares “our” bed with my wife, partly because she has a bad back, partly because she’s not in love with me or whatever…) Anyway, after I have said goodnight and left the room, I am expected to text my wife and if I don’t she whines about it the next day. But it’s not just a goodnight text, she wants to tell me I’m not making an effort because apparently it’s another “opportunity” to make an effort, which I fail to do what she wants because I don’t really get what she wants… sometimes our late night texts are loving but more often she just wants to complain. I don’t see the point in texting at all tbh (plus it’s my time for coming on here and reading bpd books). I’d be happy with, “goodnight, I love you, sleep well”, but sometimes even those get holes pitched in them, “it’s not a good night, I won’t sleep well because I’m sick AND I’ve got a bad back AND you don’t love me because you never listen to me AND you’ve just WASTED another OPPORTUNITY to make an EFFORT!”. What do you guys suggest I do? Tonight I’m torn between not texting and just texting to say, “goodnight [pet name] I hope you feel better soon”.

[babyducks]

Hey there thankful person

How about backing up a step and taking another look at some of the questions that are in this thread.  I'd appreciate some feedback.

'ducks

[thankful person]

what do you think her motivation was for sharing the Facebook post?  really think about it.    why did she share that particular post with you?   was it an overture?    was it reminiscing?   was she happy when she shared it? sad? was she maybe apologizing for the bumpy start to the morning?

 that spark? maybe call it the honeymoon phase, that's long gone, maybe she is missing it?   maybe this would be a good time to ask a question to find out what is going on with her?

would you say this is validating or invalidating?   is your emotional intensity rising while her's is backing away? are you both equal on the emotional plane?

 
why do pwBPD devalue?    is it because they are 'just mean' or is it a maladaptive coping tool to protect their fragile emotional state.   thankful person can't hurt me because I see how she is really a bad person who treats me wrong type thinking.  I am going to be strong and put up a wall here type thinking.

again I agree with NotWendy - this is going on too long and its off the rails.  ask yourself honestly what productive thing could you see coming from this exchange?   where did you think this was going to go?  especially in the context of the day.

can we look at this through the lens of the Karpman drama triangle?   who is the victim, persecutor, rescuer?   who is trying to move to the role of victim? and when? who has opportunity to move to the healthy triangle of coach, challenger, survivor?    and do they take it?

'ducks

Hey ducks,

I have edited your post to make it easier to reflect on your questions. So yes in response to the Facebook post… maybe my wife was not attacking me as I thought she was. I don’t know. I honestly think she would have been angry had I asked why she shared it with me. I can see how my response led to this verbal rut as you call it. Today I have been trying not to respond so much and JADE in response to her accusations. I remember how ignoring to an extent has helped me in the past with her not getting the attention and drama she craves.

I know that my wife misses that honeymoon period and I don’t know what I can do, hence all the questions about what I could do to please her. My fear is that because she will never feel that way about me again, she would rather be in a relationship with someone else (not saying she would initiate that though). I am here for the kids because were we to separate then I would hardly see them (that would be her plan) but even 50/50 custody would hurt but she would be dead against that. I do wish my wife were an easier person to be with because we get along most of the time and we parent well together and I love her. I understand that she won’t get easier, even though she somehow actually did last year for a very long time when I first learnt about validating etc.

Maybe it was invalidating to tell her how much I love her. We have been through this many times where she tells me I say I love her too much and she didn’t want to hear it. I do wish she loved me though. I try to get it right and I think many people would appreciate that (Not that I’m interested in them),

I can see how she is playing victim but actually I feel like the victim and very pathetic after all the progress I thought I had made. I don’t understand that much about the triangle although I have read about it.

[livednlearned]

Maybe it was invalidating to tell her how much I love her.

Any thoughts on what it would be like to say to yourself, "I'm a catch."

 

What if this is happening: she might wish you loved yourself so it was easier for her to feel that way.

[babyducks]

thanks for going back a little bit and taking another look at some of the open ideas in this thread.  I do appreciate it.   the questions that get thrown out here aren't really rhetorical.   at least not always.      they are also not yes/no right/wrong questions.   there is no perfect answer.   this isn't like a test in school that comes with a grade.   I would say these should be more like openings to other perspectives.
 

I don’t understand that much about the triangle although I have read about it.

you've been around for a while now thankful.   you aren't a newbie any longer.  what I am wondering is, is it time to go on the next steps of your education?   of course, the answer could be yes or equally it could be no, it's up to you to decide.   

and by education, I mean learning about the patterns that exist in all relationships.   the patterns that exist in our relationships.    how our own thinking and choices create what we live with.    that's a broader bigger picture.  it's a lot more than finding a couple of stock phrases to use during a conflict or simple tools for a high conflict situation.     You've heard of EQ?    Emotional Intelligence - the ability to recognize, understand and manage emotions.    working on your own  EQ is an investment in us, in making our life better.  better not perfect.   what do you say?   is it time to take a couple of big deep breaths and a couple of big steps back and try to find the bigger picture?

My fear is that because she will never feel that way about me again, she would rather be in a relationship with someone else (not saying she would initiate that though).

she might not feel that way about you again.   that's a legitimate fear.   and watching the honeymoon phase drift away is a loss.   these are hard emotions.   and it seems to me that there are straightforward choices on how to handle or work with these emotions.    avoid them?   stuff them down into some deep crevice of our being or frantically try to ~fix~ them?   (not a rhetorical question  )    is it possible that the loss of the honeymoon stage makes you both feel the relationship is on shaky ground somehow?   

I can see how she is playing victim but actually I feel like the victim and very pathetic after all the progress I thought I had made.

I can understand that.    I've taken the long road back to the Karpman triangle but here we are again.   None of us are on the triangle alone.    and feelings just are, they aren't right or wrong,... they just are.   The victim on the triangle has a hard time making decisions, solving problems, getting professional help, doing self care or changing.   there are reasons all those things are hard, the difficulty isn't groundless.    without looking at your wife, just at your part of this dynamic, what do you see happening here?

I very much liked livednlearned's question.  brilliant.    to me it relates to what NotWendy said.

I just hope you will take yourself off the sale rack and believe you are worth more than the exchange in this conversation.

'ducks

[babyducks]

duh.   I forgot to add the link to the workshop.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

[Notwendy]

"Taking yourself off the sale rack" is actually a personal change with yourself. It's not about getting validation from a spouse or anyone else. In fact when you look to your wife to show love to you, but don't have self love, you are putting your self esteem in the hands of someone else. But you have to have it first.

I had to work with a counselor and 12 step sponsor to have this happen. If you believe that every human on the planet has been granted intrinsic value, that's a start. I think we can accept the idea that we aren't more valued than others, but why is it so hard to assume that we are not valued less?

One aspect of co-dependent behavior is that, while it seems like the nice thing to do, it can also make people uncomfortable. When you ask your wife if she loves you, you are actually seeking her out to help your own self esteem. She may sense that and feel uncomfortable. When you tell her you love her - it may come with an expectation that she return this with an "I love you too".

Since counseling benefitted me, I still recommend it for you. I know this is one aspect your wife has "forbid" you but this crosses a boundary that you don't have to accept. Your emotional health is a part of self care. If she forbid you to see the dentist, you'd think that's strange- these are your teeth. It's your emotions. She doesn't get to tell you to not take care of them.

[thankful person]

Thank you all. Lived n learned, I recognise what you are saying. When I was at the stage of having an emotional online affair with my bpdwife-to-be whilst still in a relationship with my ex boyfriend, I saw a meme online which said, “to someone out there, you’re their Angelina Jolie”. “Yes!” I thought proudly, “and I know who she is!” In the aftermath of telling my ex about bpdw to be, I explained to him about the meme and said of bpdw, “she’s absolutely besotted with me”. My point was, “you have undervalued me, disrespected me, not appreciated me etc etc for so many years and hey here’s a person who will treat me far better than you.” How wrong I was tbh. But yes I’ve learnt so much and enough to truly believe I would never bother with another relationship if this one doesn’t work out. But the point was, the difference in my ex’s behaviour, once he was looking at losing me, once he knew someone else wanted me. My own (false) self-confidence, born of the validation I was getting from my love affair, along with the fear of losing me, caused him to want me more. I feel like if I could turn back the clock then standing up to him would be so easy compared to what I’ve dealt with since.

Ducks, thank you again and I’ll check out the link. Yes I want to learn as much as I can. I am so interested in psychology and why I have chosen this dark path where I was actively searching for needy people to help. I’ve always said I want my children to be emotionally healthy and I think the more I learn the better. It’s been a long process for me and I’ve been listening to “stop caretaking” on repeat since the beginning. But I’m reading “codependent no more” now. I am busy with work/kids/housework and I choose to do my learning when my wife isn’t around which isn’t often. I think I had such a sense of elation back at the beginning. I’m under no illusions. I know I have much to learn. I know I’ve slipped back into bad habits. (My ex actually compared it to Star Wars’ “the dark side” omg he wasn’t wrong). I also know that what I’ve learnt so far has helped tremendously especially to stop my wife shrieking all the time like she used to, which was my main concern with the kids.

Not Wendy, I totally appreciate your input and everything you’ve shared about your parents and childhood and recovery process. I know that I would benefit from therapy but I’m just not at that point yet. Also I need to see what the outcome is of my intent to get Mum to visit later this summer.

You’re all amazing and I’m proud to be part of such a special community and I’m glad to be here.

[livednlearned]

But the point was, the difference in my ex’s behaviour, once he was looking at losing me, once he knew someone else wanted me. My own (false) self-confidence, born of the validation I was getting from my love affair, along with the fear of losing me, caused him to want me more.

By false self-confidence, do you mean because it was coming from an outside source?

Who gets to decide if you feel confident or not?

Confidence is attractive. A lot of us had childhoods with big holes of insecurity the size a bus could drive through. Not great for feeling confident.

The temporary high of a BPD love bomb can give us that feeling, and that confidence is attractive. It's a feedback loop.

I wonder what would come up if you focused there, on examining what it's like to feel confident. It's a bit like courage. Faking it is very similar to having it.

Sometimes we have to pretend to be the way we want to feel, to learn what comes up so we can get to work on those feelings, especially if they sabotage what we say we want.

[babyducks]

So this is how the latest conversation went down (wife’s mother was with us but as usual said nothing):
Me (to wife, but as a way of telling her Mum): You’ve said you don’t want my Mum to visit again…
Wife (to her Mum): No I don’t want her here. Last time she made me feel uncomfortable in my own home. She ignores me and everything is about thankful person and the kids. She’s always been like this and ignored me. Even thankful person made me feel left out…

In this exchange what role is your wife claiming on the drama triangle?  Persecutor, Rescuer, Victim?   and the harder question, why?
What role are you taking on the triangle?   even harder question, why?

this is from the link that is posted above.    it helps define the character traits.

Perpetrator—“I Get To Feel Safe by Hurting Others and Putting Them Down”
 

• Stuck in a false sense of superiority and defense mechanisms keep people in denial.
• Addictive role—feeling the adrenalin rush during anger and rage. Getting high from fighting and witnessing fights. (If you get energized watching the Jerry Springer show, you might check out adrenalin addiction.)
• Unconsciously uses anger as an energizer to keep depression at bay.
• Needs to be in control and uses verbal or physical force to stay in power.
• Deals with threat, new ideas and conflict with anger to stay safe in the role of being the dominant person.
• Uses blame, criticisms, attacks and then venting to release stress.
• Is highly judgmental of others and angry when others do not do what they say.
• Self righteous judgments about others weaknesses subtly allows the weakness to continue.
• Strong sense of entitlement—“you owe me” and willing to use verbal or physical force to get it.
• Feelings of frustration trigger the right to get angry rather than deal with own uncomfortable feelings.
• Unable to feel vulnerable and denies own weaknesses.
• Shame based and uses negative behaviors to cover up/deny own problems.
• Strong need to be right and not have their authority challenged.
• Finds reasons to make others wrong and scapegoats them.
• Believes others deserve the abuse and punishment the Perpetrators dishes out.
• May have had a parent who modeled aggressive behavior and winning through force.
• May have had a parent who spoiled the child setting up feelings of entitlement and getting his way.

 
 Rescuer—“I Get to Feel Safe by Enabling Others”
 

• Stuck in a false superiority with defense of acting unselfishly to help others.
• Addictive role—feeling good at the expense of others rights to take care of themselves.
• Good guy beliefs, such as takes the “high moral ground” of rescuing and enabling others.
• Needs to be in control of others to avoid own feelings and problems.
• Garnering self-esteem by being seen as unselfish for someone else’s own good.
• Uses rescuing and enabling to connect or to feel important.
• Highly judgmental of others and angry when others do not do what he/she says.
• Blames Perpetrator for problems in the family while refusing to address one’s own problems.
• Is anxiety driven and uses rescuing to reduce feelings of anxiety.
• Guilts self when not involved with other’s problems.
• Has shame about loss of self to meet others needs.
• Super caretaker role can create sense of giving own self away and create depression.
• Strong sense of entitlement with the Victim of “You owe me because of all I’ve done for you.”
• Can become a martyr/Victim when he/she feels that he/she has been taken advantage of by others.
• Parents the child though meeting his/her own needs of shame and guilt rather than meeting the needs of the child to be a responsible person who is allowed negative consequences and learns from them.
• May feel guilty and try to make it up to a child because of a divorce or due to choosing a lousy spouse who abuses, scapegoats or neglects the child.
• May feel guilty and try to make it up to a child because of drinking or using drugs when the child was small, neglecting the child or being a single mom.
• May feel guilty and try to make it up to a child because of a handicapping condition or a perceived weakness in the child.

 Victim—“I Get to Feel Safe by being Submissive”
 

• Stuck in a false sense of being unworthy with defenses of feeling sorry for self and passive aggressive behavior.
• Deals with threats by giving in, in order to feel safe and is submissive when others act inappropriately.
• Unable to stand up for self and avoids confrontation.
• Believes his/her needs do not count.
• Can be overly sensitive, wish-washy and unable to make and stick to decisions.
• Doesn’t take responsibility for own feelings.
• Feeds off of the beliefs of Perpetrator and rescuer that he/she cannot take care of self.
• Has shame base for being irresponsible and inept.
• Is anxiety driven and makes excuses for staying stuck in Victim-hood.
• Blames Perpetrator for problems in the family.
• Anger, resentment and retaliation through manipulation and refusal to act as a responsible adult.
• Moves between “Poor me” and anger with blaming others “He/she is bad.”
• Angry when goes along with what the Perpetrator or Rescuer says to do.
• Feels stuck and unfulfilled in life but does not risk moving forward.
• May have had a lenient or overly-protective parent who set up expectations of helplessness.
• May have had a parent who feels anxiety when the child has to suffer natural consequences from mistakes.

[Notwendy]

I understand and respect your choice with regards to therapy. With any suggestions people make here on the board- they are all just that. We decide whether they fit us or not. So what else can help us to change a lack of confidence? Other people can't provide that for us so we need to not look to them for that. For me, other sources are my work- not feedback from others, but the knowing I did a job well. Knowing I am doing the best I can with parenting. You have a talent with music- learning a new piece of music and playing it well, your teaching- when your students do well. You are a good mother to your children. The other is to stand for our values. One of them is that you value your relationship with your parents and so it's good you are standing for that. You have seen where it hurts your self esteem to forgo this to appease your wife.

Your wife is struggling with a poor sense of self. If she isn't able to have a solid sense of self- she can't provide the kind of approval and validation you would wish she could. My BPD mother isn't able to do that either. I did look to this from my father but he was so focused on her emotional needs that he was not emotionally available to do this for anyone else. Another slogan ( there are several ones) is "don't go to the empty well to get a drink of water". This doesn't mean leaving your relationship but to not look at a relationship for this kind of self validation, as we can provide it for ourselves.

[thankful person]

Hi all, thank you for your messages. I don’t have long so I will take more time to reply another day, but I just wanted to say, oh dear I do identify with the perpetrator a lot and I’ve never understood why I’m so angry at the world but I don’t feel like I take this out on my wife though she might disagree. I think I generally try to be the rescuer though less so through my stop caretaking journey…

I actually came on here to share a better meme I created in response to your thoughts:

“Why would I want to be Angelina Jolie, when I can be me?” 

[Notwendy]

Do you think your anger is actually resentment? When we overdo caretaking we also feel resentment.

[livednlearned]

Is the text exchange representing a common pattern in how you communicate?

I don't see perpetrator there at all.

[thankful person]

Lived n learned,

Yes I found when I started giving up the caretaking then I faked the self-confidence quite well, for example I started wearing clothes my wife had told me not to wear, putting clothes on the children my mother had bought, playing the piano, having a shower when I wanted, these were all big steps and I found my heart would be beating out my chest with nerves when I first video called my mother without my wife’s “permission”, but over time it got easier.

I don’t feel I’m the perpetrator in this relationship. I just have always felt that I was a nasty little child who would lie and steal and sometimes be cruel to the other children at school. I was an absolute nightmare where authority was concerned, as a teenager too. I have said very cruel things to my brother and his wife, and my parents (all many years ago) I was bullied from a young age and sexually assaulted by two different strangers. I hated myself and wanted to die and at age 12 was diagnosed with depression. I eventually turned to philanthropy to find some meaning for my own existence. But as not Wendy suggested, I grew resentful of how much effort I made with my “friends” and got nothing back. I knew if I cut contact I wouldn’t hear from them and I was right. Despite clearly having a major life crisis where I left a “happy” “secure” 14 year relationship with a man I loved for a very mentally sick girl, 15 years younger than me on the other side of the planet. My wife says that when I talk, a lot of anger comes out and I raise my voice, even if I’m just recounting a story. My ex said the same. They both accused me of being a narcissist. But I do think I’m better than other people. Not everyone, just a lot of them. My wife thinks that’s why I’ve continued to her bullied through my adult life at work, even when I haven’t understood why; I mostly work alone now for that reason. I feel misunderstood by everyone. I still listen to the same angry music I loved as a teenager. I gave away all my CDs when I met my wife, because she was jealous of my music? my past? I don’t know… but I now have Alexa in my car. Angry music makes me happy

[thankful person]

In this exchange what role is your wife claiming on the drama triangle?  Persecutor, Rescuer, Victim?   and the harder question, why?
What role are you taking on the triangle?   even harder question, why?

This is why I struggle with the triangle, I don’t totally understand it. My wife is claiming to be the victim of my mother (and me) treating her badly. She didn’t say it but I expect she’s also jealous because the children don’t give her any attention when my Mum  is here. Why? Is what I don’t get.

I guess I’m the rescuer here, trying to “make things right” so that she will agree to my mother’s visit. I have fallen back into these patterns more since our son was born in October. My wife has been lonely and depressed. We’re struggling for money, she’s overspending, overeating, trying to stop me working for various reasons… We are in a new town and my wife has tried so hard to meet people and make friends and no one is interested. I just think, well sorry dear but people are like that, you’ll learn to get over it (I don’t say that ). But I am 15 years older and feel I’m done with people. Because my other choice was the whole, don’t try and put things right, invite Mum round without my wife’s agreement… and risk some downright crazy behaviour .. don’t forget my wife was a self-harmer too when we met. She’s not too ashamed to not shriek and shout that she doesn’t want Mum here. A large part of my continuing caretaking habits is indeed to keep the peace for the children. Please don’t think I’ve made no progress. Things are immeasurably calmer since I joined bpd fam 2.5 years ago, though it may not sound like it…
I will definitely check out the workshop too, thank you.

[thankful person]

I understand and respect your choice with regards to therapy. With any suggestions people make here on the board- they are all just that. We decide whether they fit us or not. So what else can help us to change a lack of confidence? Other people can't provide that for us so we need to not look to them for that. For me, other sources are my work- not feedback from others, but the knowing I did a job well. Knowing I am doing the best I can with parenting. You have a talent with music- learning a new piece of music and playing it well, your teaching- when your students do well. You are a good mother to your children. The other is to stand for our values. One of them is that you value your relationship with your parents and so it's good you are standing for that. You have seen where it hurts your self esteem to forgo this to appease your wife.

Your wife is struggling with a poor sense of self. If she isn't able to have a solid sense of self- she can't provide the kind of approval and validation you would wish she could. My BPD mother isn't able to do that either. I did look to this from my father but he was so focused on her emotional needs that he was not emotionally available to do this for anyone else. Another slogan ( there are several ones) is "don't go to the empty well to get a drink of water". This doesn't mean leaving your relationship but to not look at a relationship for this kind of self validation, as we can provide it for ourselves.

I do gain pleasure and confidence out of my work and parenting. I feel I’m learning so much especially from my eldest as she has such a zest for life, she loves people of all ages, I’m humbled by her ability to connect with everyone she meets even with delayed speech. She just wants to make friends and meet people and learn and is so keen to do everything. She doesn’t seem to mind if children don’t want to play with her, she gets along with everyone. I feel I’m grieving for whatever reason I always hated school and everyone and learning etc. a part of me wishes I could “start again”.

I know my wife can’t give me self confidence. I don’t mind that anymore. I’m keen to try to work on these issues, with you guys supporting me and any reading I do.

[babyducks]

This is why I struggle with the triangle, I don’t totally understand it. My wife is claiming to be the victim of my mother (and me) treating her badly.

I find the simplest way to understand the triangle is this.

The Victim's default attitude / approach is Poor Me, I'm helpless and hopeless.

The Rescuer's default attitude / approach is Let Me Help You, I'll fix it.

The  Perpetrator / Persecutor's default attitude / approach is It's All Your Fault, You're to Blame for This.

I guess I’m the rescuer here, trying to “make things right” so that she will agree to my mother’s visit.

Here is what I identify from this discussion of your mother's visit.   Your wife in the role of P, persecutor, perpetrator for these reasons (from the link) 1) Needs to be in control and uses verbal or physical force to stay in power.  2) Deals with perceived threats, new ideas and conflict with anger to stay safe in the role of being the dominant person. and 3) Strong sense of entitlement—“you owe me” and willing to use verbal or physical force to get it.   

What do you feel when you read that?   Agree?   Disagree?

I also identify you more in the R role, or the caretaker role, just as you said. Super caretaker role can create the sense of giving own self away and create depression and resentment. And maybe a touch of the victim role - deals with threats by giving in, in order to feel safe and is submissive when others act inappropriately.

This isn't a judgement.   I remember being hypersensitive to anything that implied I was the bad person or the worse person in my relationship.   I had listened to my Ex calling me flawed for so long that anything that came even close to that upset me.    It might help to think of these labels as roles in a piece of music.   One isn't better or worse than the other, there is no judgement.

We have been the caretaker as a way to keep the peace, keep the delusion, keep the fantasy, keep the family together, keep the other person calm. But perhaps it's time to face the fact that none of our caretaking methods have worked for more than a few minutes or a few days.

The quote above is buried in the link.   I have very few surviving family members,  but I do have one cousin who I am exceptionally close to.   She is one of four remaining family and we have been through a lot together over the years. We are more like sisters.  My then partner and now Ex didn't like my cousin.   I think you would say my Ex was jealous of the closeness.   My cousin didn't care for my partner, she thought the relationship was too intense, that I was trying too hard to make it work, and acting in ways that weren't natural for me.   I can't say she was terribly wrong about that. I can say my cousin was blunt about how she expressed her thoughts.    Very quickly those two came to loath each other.  I jumped through a lot of hoops trying to work things out.  My Ex insisted that I always chose my cousin over her.   and the only acceptable thing was to never speak to my cousin again.   nothing else would do.    When I wouldn't agree to that my Ex ended the relationship, only to come back after a few months because she 'forgave' me, even if it made her 'suffer'.    My Ex went from being the P - Putting down my family and Putting my cousin in her place to Angry Victim (also in the link).    I tried to get off the triangle and leave the R role of rescuing, fixing and caretaking and was moderately successful.     It did not impact my Ex in any significant way, she was still the Angry Victim, still loathed my cousin but I got to visit my family and spend time doing what I wanted.

well that got long winded.   

as you work to understand the dynamics that are lying just below the surface regarding the visit between consider two things.   understanding the dynamics will help change them, and the changes you make will not provide a perfect result.    there is no perfect outcome here.   there are degrees of conflict and hopefully understanding what is going on and why will lessen the conflict and stress.

'ducks

[Notwendy]

There's a lot to unpack here-

On the triangle, from my own observation (and I have also read it)- the pwBPD takes Victim perspective. The benefit to them is avoidance of accountability and shame- one doesn't blame the victim. If they are being hurtful- to them, it's self defense. You can either be in Rescuer role and if not, you are being Persecutor and their hurtful behavior to you feels justified to them. Even if you do something nice for them, they somehow will re-frame this to keep their Victim position and perspective. So you may appease them for a bit but it won't have the effect you hope of pleasing them, for long. They seem to seek out some other way for them to be Victim.

One example with my BPD mother who is in a skilled nursing facility after a fall. She didn't like her lunch, so they brought her a sandwich. I offered to arrange it on a plate for her as she's having some difficulty moving around. Sounds like something a person might do to just be nice- right? There was no other reason. So she snarled and said NO, leave it. Then complains about people doing things for her that she wants to do herself- ironic since she also wants people to do things for her too. Then I asked an aid how she was doing ( since I was visiting and didn't see her every day, it was a reasonable question)  and she screamed "Don't talk about me in front of me, I am right here!"

Of course I know that, I wasn't going to talk about her behind her back. But somehow, the intent to be helpful and concerned was somehow turned into doing something wrong to her. At this point, I am used to this.

Until my father passed away though, this kind of thing would lead me to try harder to please my parents. To maybe be "good enough" for them to love me. I did this in my relationships as well ( fortunately have changed that). I was more attached to my father and wanted his approval and this is how I got it- by pleasing BPD mother, he'd be pleased too. But this goal is beyond anyone's ability and I think the events around my father's passing were what led me to begin to understand the dynamics in my family.

So here's where I see something in your texts and behaviors that may be something to think about- the more your wife is critical of you, the harder you seem to try. She says you don't love her. You tell her several times that you do. You even get a tattoo to show her that. Yet, this doesn't register with her, just like no matter what nice things I do, or anyone else does for my mother- she doesn't see it. Because if she did, it would challenge her Victim position and she won't do that, her perspective won't do that. So while family is scrambling around to do things for her ( because she can't do them in her situation) and  medical providers are tending to her, she's still saying nobody is doing anything for her.

The question I have- and it's for you, and also would apply to my father, and I did this for a while, is what drives us to seek out and try to please someone for whom it's impossible to do so? And what makes us keep on trying? Someone else might not tolerate this situation.

Attraction is a mystery. It's a combination of factors, many unconscious ones. From what I have read though is that- we tend to seek out romantic partners with whom we repeat our own childhood issues with the hope of repairing them. But actually, we can do this for ourselves. I also read that we may do for someone else what we actually wish someone would do for us. I can relate to that one- giving someone the kind of love I wish they'd give to me, and yet, a relationship with someone with BPD is not reciprocal. My BPD mother can't love anyone like that because, she doesn't love herself. Your wife she doesn't feel good about herself. I think pwBPD are so overwhelmed with their own feelings, trying to maintain their own self image that they are focused on that.

Anger is a feeling, just like any other one. Our feelings are survival signals. We are emotionally wired like our ancestors. Fear allowed us to run from hungry bears. Anger allowed us to attack anything that threatened us. We have the same feelings but the circumstances are different. Maybe a bear isn't chasing us, but what is fear, or anger, telling us. We then can choose to act on them or not. That's what makes us thinking humans. We can be angry at someone, but they aren't a hungry bear- we don't attack them.

You feel what you feel. There's nothing wrong with your anger. However, you need to discern how to act on it or not. Why do you feel anger? That is for you to understand  What is your feeling telling you?

What is it that you felt such an attraction to your wife that you'd be willing to alter your whole life for? One is physical - my BPD mother is attractive- I can understand why my father fell in love with her. But there has to be more than this to it- there are lots of attractive people out there. We tend to repeat dynamics that feel familiar to us, so people pleasing is one of them. But what is is that drew you to an emotionally disordered person. You mentioned you were not seeking a partner but someone to help.

The idea of being the "bad kid". Was this the only way you could differentiate yourself from your parents or get attention?

Lots to think about but one idea that comes to mind-and I may be way off but- you fell in love with a younger woman and are motivated to fix her and rescue her. Are you somehow acting on what you wish someone had done for you when you were younger?  Just an idea- I know I can't do more than guess here.

[thankful person]

Ducks, thank you for those insights and sharing more of your story. Yes I think you are absolutely right, my wife is persecutor here, and as not Wendy said, she sees herself as a victim no matter what… pwbpd are so good at playing that part… every day we read stories on here where over time the caretaker partner takes on more and more responsibilities trying to please. I do not want this for me or my family. It’s ironic cos I so want to please you guys hahahahaha you have no idea. What I mean is if I can do right by myself and by my children and my parents then I can be proud and at peace. My Mum always taught me, “You can only do your best”. I hope she knows how hard I’m trying. I have pretty much shared with her my intention for her to come and visit this summer, though not the specifics of how this could work if my wife is not supportive of the idea.

Not Wendy, your story of your mother in hospital makes me realise how much of my Dad’s behaviour is similar, he is also in hospital at the moment and an impossible patient. I think I learnt caretaking by observing my mother with him, as I said, my brother’s wife is also known as a very difficult person in our family. My wife sees her and hears stories about her and says she thinks they would get along, though we rarely see them either. I actually caught my wife out in her impossible-ness the other day. She was struggling to fit a bed guard on the bed and says, “Why are you just standing there watching me? You know I’ve got a bad back! You COULD HAVE offered to help or something!” “You COULD HAVE…” is one of her favourite expressions. My calm reply, “you always say that I should NEVER offer to help you because you will ALWAYS let me know if you need help with anything…” She actually couldn’t argue with that because she says it very often.

Not Wendy, “are you somehow acting on what you wish someone had done for you when you were younger?” Absolutely. (Not any more). But yes, when I was 16, I wrote a book about my struggles with bullying and depression and life. It was ostensibly to help others. But what I really wanted and craved was connection. I gave the book too many people over the years and most of them found it too emotionally intense and so they weren’t the person I was looking for. Some of them became close to me for a while, but not close enough. I didn’t realise, that when I received messages from people and replied straight away… I didn’t realise that when I finally found someone to reciprocate that, that I would have no choice but to give up my whole life for that person.

This is a quote from my first book when I was 16 (I was to write a trilogy over the years): “if there’s anyone who wants what I so desperately need: love, patience, respect, and so much fkn attention… I just want to be that for someone else. At least then there would be some small point to the fact that I exist at all”.

I thought I would spend my adult life writing letters to my young fans… having time for them. But even the suicidal teenagers I met on Facebook didn’t want that much to do with me. I became far too involved and obsessed with a young piano student’s mental health at that time too. No wonder my wife came along and I felt like I’d been looking for her all my life, even though I didn’t know it. She is stunning too but she drew me in like a spell, you know the story…

But I do wonder about something else. 35 and childless and with a man who said I would never have children (because he didn’t want them). I had craved to have a baby since I was about 6 years old. I had worked with children for years. I am so busy now I am a mother. If I had had children earlier, would that have satiated the need I craved to “find” someone to need me? It was suggested to me at the time: “You wanted a child and now you’ve found one” (meaning bpdw).

[Notwendy]

But I do wonder about something else. 35 and childless and with a man who said I would never have children (because he didn’t want them). I had craved to have a baby since I was about 6 years old. I had worked with children for years. I am so busy now I am a mother. If I had had children earlier, would that have satiated the need I craved to “find” someone to need me? It was suggested to me at the time: “You wanted a child and now you’ve found one” (meaning bpdw).

I think my mother is a child, emotionally and also in her ability to function. Dad took care of the adult aspects of their lives, earning the income, buying/selling property, managing finances. I think the conditions of their era made it hard to see this at first- women were "housewives" and the men took care of these things at the time. Even though women were not out in the workplace, it was a division of labor- each person contributing to the whole of the family but BPD mother had difficulty with that part of it. At some level though, she's aware of it and so tends to put on an air of competence and also is very critical of other people- I think it's the typical "put others down to make yourself feel better" thing.

My mother is a combination of high intelligence and low functioning due to her emotional issues. This can be puzzling because she can appear to be competent when speaking to her and yet, she's not. Like your wife, she was a beautiful woman in her younger years. My father was just smitten with her when they met.

Sometimes two people are incompatible without anything being "wrong" with either of them. I think the wish to have children or not is one of those deal breakers. If one person doesn't want to have children, and they go along with it to please the other person- they might resent that. If someone wants to have children but the other person doesn't- they will feel a significant longing that is missing for them. Even as much as we might care about the other person- if we are in a relationship with them, someone is giving up an important aspect of themselves due to the wishes of the other. Some things we can and should compromise on but the decision to have children or not is too big to compromise on. It's a deal breaker.

If you have wanted children since you were a child- this isn't something you can pretend is negotiable. It's not. There was something missing in your relationship. In a similar idea, I had a friend in school who was very religious and we were different religions. I knew he could only be happy with someone who shared his religion. He was a wonderful person- good looking, intelligent- nice. He'd be the best husband for someone, but not for me. There is nothing "wrong" with either of us- it's that we have a fundamental incompatibility. There was no way we could be any more than friends.

So it seems that you compromised a major life wish in your relationship and sought out other ways to fulfil that. That's understandable. You didn't expect to meet someone for whom you'd have felt such a strong attraction to, someone who shared your desire to have children.

You have posted about feeling badly that you hurt your ex by leaving him. In a way though, I think the two of you had a major incompatibility that had to have impacted the relationship. He'd have felt the "something missing" on your part. Now, he's free to find someone who is compatible with him. In a way, this is better than you staying with him while denying this aspect of yourself. That would not be good for either of you.

[thankful person]

Since having the kids, I am at peace with things turning out the way they were supposed to… me leaving my ex, “jumping out of the frying pan into the fire”, marrying bpdw… joining bpd family and meeting you all which has been so valuable to me and not just because I’m married to a pwbpd.

But the reason I hadn’t made peace with it was because it was far more complicated than what I said. On telling my ex I wanted to leave him… obviously I mentioned the not having children as being a deal breaker although I’d never had the courage to do this before. But he had become a primary school teacher a couple of years earlier. And the day I said I was leaving, he told me he had come round to the idea of having children, but was too nervous to discuss it with me. He controlled me. I did what he said. I had what he said I could have, and I’d always wondered and hoped he might say one day, “you get to have a baby this year!” Just like he used to say, “You get to have a cake today!” Anyway, he was devastated that his secret dream of us raising a family together was destroyed. He feared that he would never become a father. He wasn’t lying, because during the time he was too nervous to discuss it with me, he had discussed it with other people! Confirmed by his mother, sister, a colleague and his best mate. It felt like everything could have been perfect, were I not madly in love and obsession with bpd wife-to-be. But I know it’s all an illusion. He was gorgeous, and kind, and funny, and learnt so much about how to be a better partner from what happened between us. I want to know he’s ok but I don’t actually want to go down the route of trying to find out.

[Notwendy]

I think it's interesting who we pair up with. The relationships I had before I met my H were dating in school- so not long term or complicated like a marriage or living together situation. Still, what is it about these guys that attracted me to them and vice versa? How are they similar: divorced parents, parent with alcoholism, one even went on to marry a woman who has a mother with BPD. These were nice guys, they didn't mistreat me, they didn't have a disorder as far as I know of but I don't know how they are in long term relationships.  So, even though these were young, school age "romances" there are similarities, even if they had differences- what is is?

The family dynamics that we grow up with influence who we pair up with, even if the people we pair up with are not alike in other ways. This is not a conscious thing. The family patterns where a spouse is addicted to drugs or alcohol are very similar to families where someone has BPD. I find it interesting that one former boyfriend married a woman who has a mother with BPD. Was it because their family dynamics matched somehow?

My H does not have a parent with BPD, however, his mother has co-dependent traits and so he may have felt a sense of familiarity with me, since I had learned these from my FOO.

I am not directly in contact with these guys I knew in school, but am in a school group on Facebook with one and we have mutual friends. This one posted something recently and when I read it, I felt a yuk feeling. It sounded inflated, even narcissistic. I didn't see this before- and he never mistreated me in any way- but we were so young that things didn't get to a point where it might have happened. What didn't I see when I was infatuated?

There's a book called "Passionate Marriage" which isn't about BPD but about what influences the physical attraction between people. It's a bit "steamy" which I found distracting but the information in it is valuable. They use the term "differentiated" for having a secure sense of self and not being enmeshed. The book makes the point that being enmeshed diminishes passion. It made an interesting point: We match our partners in how differentiated we are- and then this one: each partner things they are the most differentiated one.

This is not about figuring out the other person in the partnership but about trying to discover- what is it about me that felt an attraction for them. They are all different people but how do we match? What can I learn from this?

I can't answer why you were romantically paired with these two people but I think it would be interesting for you to look at this. If we don't understand our own attraction, we can "jump out of the pan and into the fire" with someone similar to a former partner. Sometimes even a person who seems like the opposite of someone else can fit a similar pattern. We might go from being the caretaker in a relationship to someone being co-dependent with us- because the opposite looked appealing. But the extremes on either side can still be dysfunctional in similar ways.

One similarity between your two partners is that you felt controlled in your relationship with them. One difference is that on the surface- your two partners seem like complete opposites. Looking at their backgrounds and patterns in their families and how you relate to them- can you find similarities between them, and also with you?

[babyducks]

The family dynamics that we grow up with influence who we pair up with, even if the people we pair up with are not alike in other ways. This is not a conscious thing.

there is one school of thought that says we pick partners in an attempt to obtain what we didn't get as children, or to fix what was wrong about our childhood's.   which makes me wonder. 

  I had craved to have a baby since I was about 6 years old.

what happened in your family when you were 6 years old?   could something have happened to make you want to create security by creating a family of your own?

They use the term "differentiated" for having a secure sense of self and not being enmeshed. The book makes the point that being enmeshed diminishes passion. It made an interesting point: We match our partners in how differentiated we are- and then this one: each partner things they are the most differentiated one.

I think NotWendy is on to something here.  Differentiation is the ability to balance the autonomy and the attachment.   Boy oh Boy do I remember the enmeshment when I first met my Ex.    Holy Smokes.   I think Fjelstad said something about 'merging into an amoeba like oneness' and dang did she get that right.  It felt great to be enmeshed.  absolutely like crack cocaine.  for about six months. and then, again like crack cocaine, it was absolutely horrible.

I think the enmeshment felt wonderful at first because it tweaked a bunch of instincts and impulses that are hardwired into human beings.   it's safer to have someone to depend on.    but I think the enmeshment punched all my buttons because it landed so on items I struggle with.    in my family my mother was addicted to prescription drugs and my father was emotionally unavailable.  mom also had mental health issues that weren't ever addressed because you didn't talk about that in those days.    there was no abuse but tons and tons of neglect in my family.  incredible neglect.    so when I found someone who became fixated on me... wow that was an incredible high, somebody was going to pay attention to me.   amazing.   it took me a long time to accept that the relationshp with my Ex was so potent because it reminded me of my mother.

I hated myself and wanted to die and at age 12 was diagnosed with depression. I eventually turned to philanthropy to find some meaning for my own existence.

that's a young age to experience such despair.   it had to be a horrible thing to go through.    and it had to have an impact on self-esteem.    caretakers get their feelings of self-worth from what they do... what they give to other people.   when the people we are giving to aren't healthy, I think it erodes us.   and then we have to find other ways to encourge our feelings of self-worth.   what do you think?

This is not about figuring out the other person in the partnership but about trying to discover- what is it about me that felt an attraction for them. They are all different people but how do we match?

at the time I met my Ex I matched her a lot, and also paradoxically was her exact opposite in many ways.   which I found attractive.    Her incredible energy was exciting for me.   at first.   I thought it was great that she would have these flights of fancy where her thoughts would take off like blazing rockets.    it took a while for me to understand that her energy was her bipolar stuff and my lack of energy was my depressive stuff.    I was dang naive about a lot of this.

figuring this stuff out was a process.   it took time.    took some effort.   and took some sitting quietly waiting for my own ideas to bubble to the surface.

'ducks

[Notwendy]

This is a lot of insight 'Ducks. I can also see where my own childhood has influenced my relationships and behavior.  For me, there's been a lot of fear of being too close to someone. I think we mostly were afraid of my mother growing up. I think fear and love were a bit confused. People would say "of course your mother loves you" but then, why were we afraid of her.

I also had a childhood wish. I wanted my own "normal" family. I would be a "normal" mother. I based that idea of "normal" on my friends' mothers and the women in my father's family and some idealized fantasy.

With adults, I over functioned in my marriage and had a lot of fears. If someone is angry at me, I shut down, and withdraw.  If someone reminds me of my mother though, I keep a distance. It's interesting that, while you find someone with these qualities to be attractive, I keep a distance from that. I have stated though that the opposite is still dysfunctional and in my situation, I think I have taken this too far and missed out on potential friendships.

[thankful person]

One similarity between your two partners is that you felt controlled in your relationship with them. One difference is that on the surface- your two partners seem like complete opposites. Looking at their backgrounds and patterns in their families and how you relate to them- can you find similarities between them, and also with you?

Not Wendy and Ducks,
Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts and stories with me. Yes I have thought about this a lot, how much like my ex my wife is, yet she was like a wolf in sheep’s clothing, being everything I wanted. She has flown in the face of many promises she made, that she would spend Christmas with my family (“I’m better than him…”) that she would attend my piano concerts I held in my home (“I’m better than him…”) that she would never tell me I was talking too loud in public (“I’m better than him…”) that she would never tell me what I couldn’t wear (“I’m better than him”). And ironically when our first was born, she promised my Mum that she (Mum) would be seeing our children as much as bpdw’s family. (This one was about being better than my sister-in-law). In all of these examples bpdw has proven herself to be much worse than my ex and my sister-in-law and I don’t know if she ever believed these promises but I do still think that (even though she lied about so many things back then). I always thought my wife was the polar opposite of my ex, but turns out they have lots in common : overspending, controlling their partner, in particular being very spoilt when it comes to birthday gifts etc never living up to expectations. My ex used to tease me for not getting a sun tan on holiday. I lived in a hot country for 10 years and now I tan immediately without even trying because my skin adapted. And my wife is so angry about this because she’s jealous but I literally never sit in the sun. At the height of my caretaking I would sit in the shade while she sunbathed and I’d still get a better tan.

I have four more notable exes. Two boys and two girls. The boys were actual relationships and the girls more emotional love affairs. The boys all came from divorced families. I was attracted to the needy. They actually all were controlling and told me things I shouldn’t wear. The other girls were both self harming and eating disordered and needy so basically bpd symptoms. When I read about bpd I honestly thought it was the kind of person I wanted to be with (and that was many years after my teenage love affairs, that was when I left my ex at 35 - but maybe it was partly about the need to feel needed - wanting a child).

When I was 6 years old, actually something significant did happen. My Dad’s sister had emigrated to Mexico and married a Mexican man and they were raising 3 children together. I don’t know what went down, but they separated and divorced and my auntie and cousins came over to England and moved in with us for some time. The most distressing part of this for me was (before they came back) my auntie was on the phone to Dad and he put her on the phone to me and she was in floods of tears. My Dad had always been quick to anger (Not with his children) and emotionally dysregulated, but I guess this was my first major experience of an adult not being in control. I don’t know if this is relevant but maybe.

[thankful person]

How’s this for a response to bpdw texting me about never making an effort etc:

“Goodnight I’m not going to lay here getting insulted. I get up very early and I want to try and get some sleep”.

Ok the conversation is going on a few mins but I’m determined to end it.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[livednlearned]

A former president of my country (male) was televised demeaning the accomplishments of the former speaker of the house (female) to her face.

She responded, "Please do not diminish my many achievements" or something like that.

It was fire.

"I'm not going to lay here getting insulted" seems to detract from the message you are trying to send.

If you are not going to lay here getting insulted, that is something you can just do. No need to report it (it's bait).

"Please do not diminish my efforts. I wake early and I'm heading to bed. See you in the morning" seems less bait-y.

Thoughts?

[thankful person]

Lived, you make a good point. Actually my attempt failed miserably because she buzzed my phone with several phone calls then when I threatened to turn it off she stormed in and was in my room for 1.5 hours loudly going on at me about what a bad wife I am.

I have been told, “if you don’t start making an effort with our sex life and our relationship, then our marriage will be over by Christmas…”

Of course, I gave in, I apologised. I got angry and called her a bully. I cruelly accused her of playing the mental health card following a recent minor car crash. I promised I would try harder. All of this is mostly because we are going on holiday on Sunday and I do want to try and keep the peace. Now I feel I’m a disappointment to everyone including you guys.

I am willing to give up the peace over my mother’s upcoming not yet planned visit after our holiday, and I will give up the marriage if it comes to it. But I just want to get through the holiday and hope the kids don’t have a terrible time.

I have lots to come to terms with if I’m not going to be here with my children as they grow up.

[babyducks]

These are very difficult relationships.   Often, no matter our best efforts, the relationship becomes so dysfunctional that it just can't continue.   great wisdom through painful experience,  I learned I can't communicate with someone who isn't willing to listen.   I can have the greatest message in the world, and convey it in the best possible way, but if the person I am talking with isn't in a place to take it in, well then...I'm going nowhere with my message.

it is very difficult to not react when attacked.   especially for 1.5 hours.   this constant message your wife delivers, 'if you don't start making an effort', I see this as verbal / emotional abuse.   it's a threat.  when people make threats, they are trying to control you.   this type of blaming behavior makes you feel like you are responsible when you are not.   you are not a disappointment.   not at all.   not even a little bit.   not to me.    I know exactly what it is like to be verbally abused and exactly how impossible it is to communicate my way out of it.

'ducks

[thankful person]

Ducks, thank you for getting back to me so quickly and for your continued support. I have known the same for some time actually. It’s like there’s a filter in my wife’s brain where some evil entity is sitting there giving the worst possible delusional spin on everything that happens and she believes everything they tell her. I just don’t know what to do. I’m sorry I ever thought you were wrong when you said I don’t think there’s much hope for this relationship.

[babyducks]

It’s like there’s a filter in my wife’s brain where some evil entity is sitting there giving the worst possible delusional spin on everything that happens and she believes everything they tell her.

your wife has a seriously disordered way of processing the events of life and lives in a distorted reality.    you can't change that.   

it's hard to hold onto your own version of reality when someone you care about is screaming at you that you are wrong.

upstream in this thread NotWendy said something about certain people not being a good fit together.   Me and my Ex?    not a good fit together.   lots of reasons but really nobody's fault.   I gave it my best shot.   I do think my Ex gave it her best shot.    it was never going to fit together.