Therapy Help

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Last night we had a "heart to heart". She asked me why I had my walls up and I talked about how if I fully accept her words when she's being loving it would give more weight to times she says awful things to me, which has been breaking me as a person. She got teary and kept saying she hates that I feel that way and will be better. She had no method of how to get better, but cited how she doesn't get upset about hockey anymore (I play once a week) as proof that she can change for the better. Hockey is something I said I did from our first date, said I would never stop doing, and it still took years to establish that tantrums/fights wouldn't work to make me leave late or skip games. I can't have other things that are important to me require that kind of struggle, especially as they aren't all as clear cut and easy to justify to myself and her (teammates counting on me, it's a passion of mine, i already paid, games are usually when she is already going to bed, etc.)

The other thing that hit me is her asking me to make I feel statements. When I talked about how years of threatening breakups/divorce made me feel hurt, sad, and a shell of who I used to be she said "that's my defense mechanism, I didn't know it hurt you". I've told her before it hurt me, but she seemed genuinely shocked that it had deeply hurt me over time. It was all very moving in the moment but how could somebody not know things like "what I need is a better husband who does xyz" or similar is hurtful?

One other thing I wanted to mention is she suggested asking our marriage counselor (first session is next week) if I should not discuss the marriage counseling with my own therapist, as "it might just reinforce my own perspectives and thus make the counseling less effective". I said I thought a reasonable boundary would be me talking about whatever I want to in my own therapy but told her to feel free to bring that up in our session if she wants.

[Blurr]

Last night we had a "heart to heart". She asked me why I had my walls up and I talked about how if I fully accept her words when she's being loving it would give more weight to times she says awful things to me, which has been breaking me as a person. She got teary and kept saying she hates that I feel that way and will be better. She had no method of how to get better, but cited how she doesn't get upset about hockey anymore (I play once a week) as proof that she can change for the better. Hockey is something I said I did from our first date, said I would never stop doing, and it still took years to establish that tantrums/fights wouldn't work to make me leave late or skip games. I can't have other things that are important to me require that kind of struggle, especially as they aren't all as clear cut and easy to justify to myself and her (teammates counting on me, it's a passion of mine, i already paid, games are usually when she is already going to bed, etc.)

The other thing that hit me is her asking me to make I feel statements. When I talked about how years of threatening breakups/divorce made me feel hurt, sad, and a shell of who I used to be she said "that's my defense mechanism, I didn't know it hurt you". I've told her before it hurt me, but she seemed genuinely shocked that it had deeply hurt me over time. It was all very moving in the moment but how could somebody not know things like "what I need is a better husband who does xyz" or similar is hurtful?

One other thing I wanted to mention is she suggested asking our marriage counselor (first session is next week) if I should not discuss the marriage counseling with my own therapist, as "it might just reinforce my own perspectives and thus make the counseling less effective". I said I thought a reasonable boundary would be me talking about whatever I want to in my own therapy but told her to feel free to bring that up in our session if she wants.

[ForeverDad]

An all too common pattern for us in marital counseling is that people with BPD perceptions (pwBPD) is that we are cast as the big problem, the spouse claims "it's all his fault".  Be prepared that may arise in the session.  You don't want a Blamefest nor spouse hogging the entire session.

How might you address that predictable allegation?  While everyone has an inclination to defend oneself, the reality is none of us is perfect and so we all have to shoulder at least some responsibility.  The issues is, what is a major issue and what is a minor issue?  A person with BPD perceptions is more likely to Blame or Blameshift and Deny/minimize responsibility.

[Blurr]

That is something I was a little worried about from reading about BPD, and unfortunately I am seeing it in the few messages with the marriage counselor. I figured I would get the ball rolling and sent a message about a current issue.

In brief: I agreed to pick her up Friday evening so she could enjoy a night on the town with an old friend and have a drink without worrying about driving home. I figured I would use the opportunity to see also see a friend as it's sometimes complicated for me to make plans with friends/family, especially without my wife. She asked me the day of if I'd ride my bike and drive her car back home. I said "probably not, I may hang out with Jake and just drive from his house to pick you up. I can leave my car overnight and will handle grabbing it in the morning, since I know leaving your car overnight in the city makes you anxious". She finally agreed to this plan but was upset I was making the night all about me and my own plans rather than just focusing on her. On the way home from picking her up she berated me for minutes on end, told me I was a bad husband, I didn't know how to communicate, etc. She eventually calmed down, but got escalated again and had me drop her off half a mile from our house.

I related this story to her and the counselor, basically to communicate how I felt I was being punished way too much for the crime of not picking her up in the way she had originally pictured in her head, but I am now painted as the problem for not validating her emotions enough. The counselor is asking why I am having trouble validating her and how come I just didn't stay home and while she was out to keep things uncomplicated?

Sorry this is so long. and I appreciate your response FD. It seems like a situation where I will just have to capitulate and apologize to move forward and discuss bigger things, but I am not sure how I can make the counselor "get" it. And, sure, I could have communicated better, but I think I went above and beyond what is generally expected of a partner.

[kells76]

Hey Blurr, thanks for the background on where you guys are at with counseling.

A couple of tricky dynamics about doing counseling when a pwBPD is involved are:

-we are walking in having endured a lot of blame, and we really want our experience to be validated right off the bat, and:

-of the two people, we are often the one who is more ready and willing to hop in and do it.

These dynamics can combine and be part of what you're experiencing right now -- where the counselor seems to be putting you, and you only, in the hot seat, and that hurts.

I want to share that there may be another reason for things going down this way, that I'd hope can help you navigate feeling hurt and misunderstood.

Sometimes counselors can tell that one partner is more invested in sessions than the other -- typically, it's the pwBPD with one foot out the door and less buy-in. For marriage counseling (or any counseling with >1 person) to be successful, both parties have to be long-term invested. pwBPD are highly sensitive to feeling judged/blamed/etc, and sometimes seem to have an allergy to "exposure". This means that a counselor may be able to tell pretty early on "okay, Blurr is already invested, but Ms. Blurr seems ready to walk out on sessions on Day 1". This then means that the counselor may strategically and therapeutically choose to focus on Blurr's issues first, so that Ms. Blurr feels like "okay, I'm not being ganged up on, so maybe I can stick this out".

It really hurts, though, if you show up wanting that validation from a professional right off the bat, but the professional is doing something strategically different. I know, we've experienced it, too.

It could be helpful for you to try approaching sessions with the mindset of: "The counselor is making a choice to focus on the one of us who is more capable of handling the heat. I can go in and show that I'm not reactive, that I'm willing to try what the C recommends, and ultimately, my W will show who she is and the C will see it".

I don't think your session indicates that going forward, you have to capitulate and "take it" and that's what the C is recommending. I think there's the possibility that something bigger and more strategic is going on, and if you can show the C that you are willing to make some changes and do the homework, the after a while the C may see: "Well, Blurr is certainly trying; let's see if Ms. Blurr can also do the homework". And when she doesn't, that's when the C is going to get the bigger picture -- not from you trying to explain everything right away, but from seeing who is actually willing to do the work and who isn't. And that takes some time, but is powerful.

Any of that seem possible?

...

A parallel approach that you can think about trying is --

these situations are going to come up a lot (the escalations, the car stuff, the conflicts)... there'll be no future shortage of situations to talk about with the C after the fact. One "move" you can try, instead of trying to communicate that you felt blamed, is to put the question back on the C: "What would you recommend I do in that situation? I'm open to trying that. And if I try that, what do you think would happen next, and how would you recommend I approach that?"

That might thread the needle of the C seeming to not "get it" about your situation, because after you try that, you'll bring back just a neutral report of: "OK, we had a conflict the other day, so just like you recommended, I tried XYZ instead of ABC. What happened next was instead of PQR happening like you thought, Not-PQR happened -- can you walk me through a healthy approach to that?"

This lets you present what's actually happening, plus the fact that you're trying to follow the C's recommendations, and puts it back on the C, kind of, to put the pieces together of "oh, this might not be a normal marriage conflict, if I though that PQR would happen and it didn't".

If you can sit tight and play the long game in counseling, with the knowledge that your C may be making a strategic choice in focusing on "your issues" first, then hopefully that gives you some strength to know that it's for a reason and won't be like this forever.

Hope some of that helps;

kells76

[Blurr]

Your points make a lot of sense, and I can see the logic in it. The counselor may have seen something in my wife's very long response (it sort of looks like a group chat in the therapy app) that let them know to not start by pushing any of her buttons at all. You are right, I have been feeling blamed and beaten down and even knowing that is possibly a reason for the counselor's strategy, it does hurt. I will keep this message in mind when the actual session happens.

I am honestly not sure how capable I am at the moment to play the long game, though. Part of me says, yes, she is a great catch of a woman in so many ways; I should put in the time and energy to see if counseling can help us have a kinder and more loving relationship even when she gets stressed out. Another part of me is so drained from trying and falling short of meeting her expectations day in and day out that I don't know where to find that energy.

[ForeverDad]

Last night we had a "heart to heart".

Oh my.  Been there, done that.  What my ex did was to do that when it was time to sleep and she always said, "We're going to fix this tonight."  Until the wee hours of the morning and I had to get up to work a few hours later.

On the way home from picking her up she berated me for minutes on end, told me I was a bad husband, I didn't know how to communicate, etc. She eventually calmed down, but got escalated again and had me drop her off half a mile from our house.

Been there, done that too.  I had been married for nearly 15 years and in the final year or so my ex too started berating and disparaging me in the car too, not just the privacy of our home.  And yes, one day she did demand I stop the car half a mile from home so she could walk home through the yards since the road had no room for walkers.

The counselor is asking why I am having trouble validating her and how come I just didn't stay home and while she was out to keep things uncomplicated?

It's hard to imagine the counselor is that clueless, so maybe he's voicing your spouse's perceptions, for now, as kells76 mentioned.  Problem is, how much and for how long should you appease?

It seems like a situation where I will just have to capitulate and apologize to move forward and discuss bigger things, but I am not sure how I can make the counselor "get" it.

Oh my, apologies too.  Increasingly toward the end my ex would demand I apologize for any imagined slight.  Not just that, but over and over.  Old incidents came up again and again, despite having apologized before.

Need I say she's my Ex?  Your spouse may be responsive, maybe not.  Mine wasn't.  The answer is whether your spouse will truly improve with the sessions and focus on herself, just as you focus on yourself.

And yes, don't have children until/unless these issues are resolved.  I was clueless and didn't know that having a child didn't fix anything and made everything more stressed and complicated.

[livednlearned]

I never experienced the joy of marriage counseling so can't comment on that.

However, I did do group therapy for women with two therapists facilitating the group.

One thing I noticed is that the therapists kind of summarized what someone said. Like the therapists were acting as vessels if that makes sense.

When I first arrived my feelings got hurt all the time because the group was so candid.

I got curious about what was actually going on and started to pay attention to the therapists and I think sometimes their purpose was to sort of mirror the moments that were ripe for exploration, so that people could get to the bottom of whatever came up.

Like "LnL, so-and-so and so-and-so said this, and you changed the topic. Now so-and-so is asking why you didn't answer the first person, and if there is a reason you changed the topic." Whereas I lost the thread of who said what and was probably feeling defensive, when what might've been a healthy response was, "I'm not sure. I don't know, it's a good point. I need time to think about it." Or, "I don't understand why, but when you talk to me I feel like I did when my sibling tried to stab me with a fork under the table. What you're saying to the group sounds perfectly reasonable and yet I can't shake the feeling you're trying to kill me."

It just struck me that the therapists seemed to think the way they facilitated would help us figure things out on our own, and that way was more impactful. Idk. For me it was really confusing until I paid attention to what was happening.

Makes me wonder if your counselor is really bad or is just doing the same thing, to uncover the conflict in all its facets so it's very vivid, or ... ?

Do you think it's possible your counselor is trying to guide exploration more than being a neutral party or arbiter of your disputes? Sometimes it seems here on these boards that pwBPD set marriage counseling up to be a tribunal and then the non-BPD person buys into that narrative.

Also, good for you that you put that boundary around hockey!

[Blurr]

Thanks! It feels weird to be proud of continuing a hobby that only takes 2-3 hours/week but holding that limit took just about all I had, ha.

[Blurr]

The first actual session is today. I am feeling really uncertain about it but trying to have an open mind. There was a very big spat over the long weekend. I had a chance to take Friday off as a floating holiday, and asked my wife about using that time to go hiking with two friends who also had the day off. She was very upset because she feels I don't spend enough quality time with her. I jumped right into JADE, I think. I explained that I also valued time together, but we had just spent the entire prior weekend just the two of us. I told her that I'd be home at least an hour earlier than if I worked, that we had the entire rest of the weekend, then July 4th, and finally we were going bike camping just the two of us from July 6-10th. I feel like that is a ton of dedicated time together, but she insisted I was guilting/manipulating her by saying it was a rare opportunity.  (I haven't seen those friends since last summer because there is a woman who I briefly dated about 10 years ago in my friend group so I'm not allowed to attend any event where that woman might possibly show up).

That fight trickled into the next day when I asked her if she really thought I was being manipulative by saying it was a rare random chance and things went downhill from there as I "couldn't just drop it". When she told me "F*CK YOU!" I let her know I couldn't continue the conversation and would be back in an hour and a half. I got home exactly when I said I would and saw her heading out. A few hours later she returned and saw me enjoying a beer on the porch watching Star Trek with the dog (I'm a real catch, ha). She asked why I hadn't gotten her one and suggested I either pick one up for her at the brewery right down the street, or we could go grab a drink together. I asked her which she preferred and she said no preference. I double checked that there wasn't a secret right answer and then said I would just grab a beer for her. While picking up her beer I saw my brother in law who asked if I had time for a drink. I called my wife to check and she said she doesn't like to drink past 9pm so could I just head on back. I said no worries and headed straight home.

That's when things blew up. "Why the F do you think it was okay to ask me that after I just said how I feel we don't spend any quality time together. F you. I don't want marriage counseling, I want divorce. Don't sleep here tonight!". And, for the first time ever, I did just that. I stayed in my friend's spare above garage apartment that night. Then spent the day helping him clean out his brew equipment for an upcoming festival, and helped another friend hang up some drywall. I told her I was not ready to come home that evening and told them we could talk Monday morning. She was very upset but for better or worse I held firm. I've told her over and over hitting me over the head with divorce isn't something I can handle any longer.

Now she is alternatingly super loving and wanting to hug and kiss me, or feeling extremely sad and dejected because I am sometimes flinching at her touch and not returning to "normal". She says she is hurting just as much as me but is the only one actually trying. She says she will be better if I just let her. I don't know, it just all feels so fake to me today and I'm heading into the therapy a jumbled pile of emotions.

[ForeverDad]

Boundaries are so much better than appeasing.  (She may say she wants accommodating but when it gets to extremes, it's really appeasing she wants.  Sadly, that usually means weakened boundaries.)  Notice how she's nice?  Sadly, it won't last before there's more boundary testing.  It seems to be a constant effort to find your weak spots.

Boundaries don't work well with the dysfunctional person, they're resisted.  What works better is when we set boundaries for ourselves, what we do or say in response to poor behaviors.  You'll find a couple topics on smarter Boundaries here.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0

[Blurr]

Thanks, those are definitely useful tips! I think I was trying to hold the boundary of "if you yell and swear at me and tell me to leave, I will actually do that and make my own decision on when I feel comfortable to return". She often yells at me to go away when she is upset, but then mocks me for actually going 'of course you'd leave when you know that's just my defense mechanism,  some husband you are" and demands I come back. It feels like a power play to make me start to leave and then make me come back right away. It really messes with my self esteem to be pushed and pulled so blatantly. This time I at least didn't play the game she wanted to play.

[Blurr]

Today my wife was really upset that I wanted to bring up certain topics during counseling session #2. She said they weren't worth bringing up and demanded that I repair with her for arguing why I thought they were worth bringing up, considering she had other stressful things to do today. She thought it ruined us "being in a good place going into the session".

During the therapy session my wife explained why she didn't want her friends and my friends to meet (there is a woman I dated for a few months 10 years ago in my friend group who I am not allowed to ever be near. She thinks if my friends meet her friends then it doubles the chances of running into said ex). I felt like the counselor thought that was reasonable, or was maybe just validating her, it was hard to tell in the moment. Then my wife went into how I didn't repair with her about asking if we could bring up that topic in counseling and ruining the day. She got very visibly angry and was really laying into me. I didn't quite know how to act while she ran down how bad I was at validating her/repairing/taking perspective, etc. I didn't want to provoke her unfairly and I wanted to stay calm. I tried not to flinch/jump as she made angry hand gestures as I didn't want to seem like some beaten puppy. I also didn't want to put on some act that this kind of anger just rolls off my back, either. It felt weird having her get escalated in front of somebody else even though she didn't swear at or cruelly insult me during this rant compared to usual. She still got loud and threw out many always and never statements that felt belittling. I think it caught the counselor off guard to be honest.

Our counselor said sometimes we need to take space when things get too heated. I said I try to do that, but it often escalates my ubpdw even further. I sometimes get so overwhelmed by the yelling and swearing and confusion from circular speeches that I just need to escape or I'll lash out as well and I forget to say "I am taking space". The marriage counselor told me to work on that. The counselor also said "I assume you don't follow him around when he tries to take space" and seemed a little taken aback when my wife admitted she does sometimes (often) do that. The counselor said she needs to just let me go. I did not expect my wife's mask to slip like it did in session #2 and I was almost as caught off guard as the counselor. I feel like if it had been me going off on her like that during the session I would be dying of embarrassment right now, whereas she just moved on to the next topic like nothing and acted like it was a normal therapy session.

[kells76]

It's fascinating that even though, like you noticed, the counselor validated some of what your W wanted (something about the friends not meeting) -- even with that, your W didn't regulate, and "kept going even though she was winning" -- kept pushing for "more wins" even though her escalation and anger weren't the "win" she thought it was.

This seems like the disorder in a nutshell:

Our counselor said sometimes we need to take space when things get too heated. I said I try to do that, but it often escalates my ubpdw even further. I sometimes get so overwhelmed by the yelling and swearing and confusion from circular speeches that I just need to escape or I'll lash out as well and I forget to say "I am taking space". The marriage counselor told me to work on that. The counselor also said "I assume you don't follow him around when he tries to take space" and seemed a little taken aback when my wife admitted she does sometimes (often) do that. The counselor said she needs to just let me go. I did not expect my wife's mask to slip like it did in session #2 and I was almost as caught off guard as the counselor. I feel like if it had been me going off on her like that during the session I would be dying of embarrassment right now, whereas she just moved on to the next topic like nothing and acted like it was a normal therapy session.

...

How are you feeling now that the counselor has started to see what you experience?

Do you guys have another session on the calendar?

[livednlearned]

How did your wife respond when the counselor said, You just need to let him go (and give him physical space)?

[Blurr]

How did your wife respond when the counselor said, You just need to let him go (and give him physical space)?

She was just like "Okay, I can see that." as if realizing for the first time that following me around yelling at me as I beg to be left alone is perhaps not a great idea.

[Blurr]

How are you feeling now that the counselor has started to see what you experience?

I'm definitely feeling mixed emotions. In the moment it was hurtful and embarrassing being scolded in front of somebody like that. Now, a few hours later, I'm feeling kind of glad it happened. Tge counselor now has a glimpse of the dynamics really at play much sooner than i ever imagined. I think my feelings and behavior will make more sense to them and I feel like maybe this could be useful, even if it ultimately ends in me deciding I can't continue this marriage. We have another one scheduled for Tuesday.

[livednlearned]

She was just like "Okay, I can see that." as if realizing for the first time that following me around yelling at me as I beg to be left alone is perhaps not a great idea.

Do you think you can build on this (not sure it's a revelation, but she seems to have heard this is a reasonable request)?

Next time it happens, how do you think things would go if you said, "Hey, this is that moment that came up in counseling. I want to hear more but I'm seriously flooded and need a break. Please stop. If you follow me I can't get back to baseline. I will stay here in the house if I can do that and I will leave to get some space if I can't."

[Blurr]

Do you think you can build on this (not sure it's a revelation, but she seems to have heard this is a reasonable request)?

Next time it happens, how do you think things would go if you said, "Hey, this is that moment that came up in counseling. I want to hear more but I'm seriously flooded and need a break. Please stop. If you follow me I can't get back to baseline. I will stay here in the house if I can do that and I will leave to get some space if I can't."

I think it depends on how dysregulated she is. She has mocked and made fun of me for needing to take space before saying it's manipulative and controlling behavior on my part  even if shes the one who initiated it by telling me to get away from her. But I am going to give it an honest effort as perhaps hearing it from a neutral 3rd party professional will hold more weight for her.

[Blurr]

Marriage Counseling Woes

We had a marriage counseling session yesterday and the therapist said it sounded like my wife was just "waiting for him to fail" and asked my wife if there was any chance that her expectations were too high and perhaps she was hard to please. My wife burst into laughter and said no, there was no chance of that, she just needs her basic needs to be met and I just am horrible at meeting those needs, validating her, etc.

The therapist asked me if I thought she was hard to please and I mentioned how she puts me in lose-lose situations where it feels impossible to please her (she sometimes literally yells at me to leave the house and leave her alone and then mocks me for being too emotionally stunted to realize I shouldn't actually leave the house).

The hours after the session were spent berating me for how I acted in therapy and how she isn't going to go if I am going to lie and paint her as hard to please when that isn't true. She woke me up at 4 am to rub her back and help her fall asleep because I ruined her sleep by not being positive enough during therapy. Then she told me to sleep on the couch. Then came out to the living room and told me to just sleep in the bed since she was up anyway. Then after she returned to bed she told me I had ruined her sleep and I should get the PLEASE READ out and she was sick of me. This time she let me sleep on the couch until morning.

I get not being happy that therapy wasn't just going over the good times (we very successfully hosted a small dinner gathering this week) but I was still pretty traumatized by a 2-hour car ride where I couldn't get away from her criticisms and insults despite literally begging her to just let me drive in peace for a while. I was feeling somewhat hopeful as the therapist was starting to hit on some of the fundamental issues in our interactions and now she is crucifying me for the counseling session.

[Skip]

Therapy Help

You are early in therapy, and I have a few suggestions that may help...

Assess: First, assess where you are (using this Gottman scale) and decide what your goals are for therapy.

Focus on the relationship: Generally, the best to target improviong the relationship (not the other person).

Beginner's tools: Early on, it's good to ask for temporary tools that do nothing more than amp down disagreements. Seek to find some agreement/compromise with your partner on how to use these to make emotional space so that you both can work on the relationship. It could be as simple as when one person feels overwhelmed, they can ask for a timeout with a promise to revisit the topic at a specific time in the next two days. If the issue is still hot the next day, take it to counseling. You both need to be safe and be heard (so you both can learn to listen better).

Let her get it all out Be patient in the beginning to let your partner say what she has to say... let her get it all out without debate. This is hard, but effective.

Her: Burr is a jerk and never considers my feelings...
Burr: I see. Tell me more.
Her: Burr's hockey buddies are more important to him than me...
Burr: Why do you feel that way...
Her: Because you spend more time with them than me...
Burr: I see. It hurts your feelings that I don't make you feel our relationship is meaningful, and going out to play hockey is an example.

Get a book: Gottman is good. Read it, and mention it to the therapist. Signal to him that you are looking for a solution and are willing to do the work

You're probably saying I don't want to give in to her crap, it's just going to empower her to dish it out more... and you can't take any more. I get that.

However, she will run out of things to say (as long as you don't debate her) and the therapist will have a lot of material to work with. Then the process can start.

You could justify it this way. You have a unique opportunity to see if you two can find some tools to live together better. She may both rise to the occasion. You also have a venue to understand better if fixing the relationship is even possible. If it's not, these sessions may be the impetus you need to move on.

As an outsider looking in, it sounds like you two are mostly fighting at this point and using the therapist as a referee. This is not at all uncommon. But is why a lot of couples therapy ultimately fails.

Food for thought.

Skip

[Blurr]

Thanks.

I thought I was generally doing a good job in therapy of letting her get her piece out and not to fight with the therapist there just as a referee, but will try to focus more on that.

When we had the latest session I was still really shaken up by how her dysegulation played out over a 2-hour car ride. I thought maybe if I shared how it made me feel we could work on avoiding the same thing in the future. Instead, she's been accusing me of being too dramatic (at some point I said it felt traumatizing) and that she knows what real trauma is like, etc. At least I got heard, and now I know one more thing not to do in the next session.

[Skip]

What were the circumstances and what happened on the car ride?

[Blurr]

What were the circumstances and what happened on the car ride?

What were the circumstances and what happened on the car ride?

We were on a camping trip with a few of her friends and before heading home we wanted to eat lunch. My wife didn't want any of the vegetarian options we had available (I offered to grill her a veggie burger, various fruits and vegetables, etc). Eventually I ate a turkey sandwich and told her I was happy to prepare any of the options we had or try my best to make any suggestion she had work. She didn't have any suggestions and just started saying I had been selfish and not a team player.

The ride home was awful. For example, I didn't see a convenience store at an intersection and she scolded me for that. I offered to turn around and she yelled at me to not bother. Then later berated me for not having turned around. When we got to the next one she cursed me out for asking her to pick something out rather than having me risk getting something she didn't like. After she ate something, things did not improve. There would be a few minutes of silence and then all of a sudden she'd start loudly yelling at me for being a bad husband and not a team player. She demanded I apologize and repair the damage I had done and said I didn't know the first thing about being nurturing or communication. I tried the tools I've read about such as "I" statements and reflecting. She just kept going, and since we were on a busy road with no shoulder I couldn't safely pull over and escape the situation. I told her I was feeling overwhelmed and begged her to stop. She finally said she would if I just apologized. I apologized even though I still wasn't sure what I did wrong, and she said I wasn't sorry enough and kept it up. I eventually tried gray rocking and saying "I love you, I understand you are upset, but I can't continue to talk about this right now". She just kept going. There would be silences of 2, 3 or 10 minutes as the anxiety and pressure built up before it exploded with a loud angry question or insult by her and fast angry hand gestures. By the end of the 2 hours I was cringing/flinching each time the silence broke and my hands were sweaty and my muscles sore from clenching the steering wheel.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Blurr - My gut clenched remembering similar situations experienced of your car ride.  I 100% can empathize with your thoughts and physical reactions.

My values : treat others with respect, and I deserve respect.
1) I put a boundary of 20 minutes before I had to take a break.
2) I put a boundary of no swearing/name calling at me.
Helpful Countermeasures:
1) Gray rock
2) SET Methodology
3) Happy bubble (invisible bubble around me that is filled with happy positive thoughts where negative thoughts bounce off)

In the end, in the storm - remember who you are.  They will try to define you - but it isn’t real - it is dysregulation.

Personally, I have decided at this time not to go to marital counseling.   She asked, I said - “maybe if things get better.”  I have read too many notes that say it is not beneficial to go without each person working on their own substantially first.  It is hard to reach a compromise with someone unwilling to recognize they are contributing to a problem.  Luckily my wife is reaching a point to recognize this, and I am building up my skills on effectively validating her feelings.  Definitely the results are promising.  2-3 hour regular fights are now <15 min and infrequent.

Keep up with your individual therapy to build confidence and perspective - it can be confusing in the eye of the hurricane.  Yo7 got this.  Has your counselor given you coping skills when drives/fights like that happen?

[ForeverDad]

My ex too would rant and rage while we drove in our car.  I look back and see that this was yet another scenario where we had privacy and she felt free to let go with her feelings and criticism.

Though we were away from our home (behind closed doors) we were still out of sight and sound from neighbors, relatives, etc.  She felt free to let her hair down and vent while in private scenarios.

One time when she was raging on the highway I even drove to the hospital and asked for help at the local emergency entrance.  She refused to leave, she claimed I was abusing her though she was sitting in the seat behind me and had been hitting me and pulling my hair.  The staffer said they couldn't do anything if she refused to come out and said they'd call the police if I didn't exit the emergency area.  I had tried but predictably failed.  You're not alone.

[Smedley Butler]

i realized recently that i dread moments of being alone with my wife for the same exact reason.  i'm sure i've been subconsciously doing this for awhile, but i just recently became consciously aware of it.  i like to read at night in the bedroom after the kids go to bed, and when she walks in the room for anything i immediately get an anxiety pang in my gut.  same after the lights go out in bed...i try to feign sleep as quick as possible.  ditto for being in the truck alone with her.  i avoid conversations for the most part, because they seem to all eventually lead to her confronting me over some perceived slight. 

[Skip]

Beginner's tools: Early on, it's good to ask for temporary tools that do nothing more than amp down disagreements. Seek to find some agreement/compromise with your partner on how to use these to make emotional space so that you both can work on the relationship. It could be as simple as when one person feels overwhelmed, they can ask for a timeout with a promise to revisit the topic at a specific time in the next two days. If the issue is still hot the next day, take it to counseling. You both need to be safe and be heard (so you both can learn to listen better).

Think about this (above, highlighted).

She wants to be heard and for you to change. You want to be heard and for her to change. You are talking at each other. She is not ready to listen. And you probably aren't ready either. You both want to be heard. No one wants to listen.

That's how it is some times.

The first thing to resolve in counseling is often "how do we stop amping up the fight", "how do stop triggering on each other" and "what can we agree to do when that happens right now."

Negotiate a temporary cease fire. Negotiate with her with the help of the therapist the rules of a temporary cease fire.

For example, get them (her and therapist) to agree that if there is a fight in the car, that you pull over and you both leave the car for 20 minutes and walk. And agree that the conversation will be rescheduled for the next day.

You probably won't get another opportunities to do therapy with your wife - make the most of what you have.

And when you need to be heard, talk to us. We all slugged through this.

[Blurr]

Thanks for the support, it does feel good to know I'm not alone/the only person in the world going through this sort of thing. I will have to keep practicing SET. Right now, she calls me out on "therapy talk" when I try anything different from my old habits of conflict avoidance with her. Perhaps I'll become such a natural as I keep doing it that it won't come off as awkward/forced to her.

Skip - Thanks for helping me focus on what realistic progress might actually look like in therapy. You're right, I've been barely hanging on for a long time, and I feel I've given up so much. I want things to be good *now* but need to accept that it's asking for way too much. She won't just "get it" and me expecting her to just builds up my own resentment (and is for sure frustrating to her as well). I'm not sure I see a way through to a happy life with her but making it less awful right now can't be a bad thing.

So far, my wife isn't very receptive to compromise (things like time outs were suggested by the marriage counselor but she refuses to give that a try). There seems to be one thing she heard and that is not to physically try to stop me from leaving or follow me around when I say I am leaving the house to take space from her raging. The therapist went up to the edge of calling that abusive behavior and it's the one thing she hasn't pushed back on. I would love it if I could just ask for a time out in the house/in the car as having to physically leave is a bit of a bummer when it's raining or once winter hits.

[Smedley Butler]

time-outs are generally a non-starter because borderlines need to vent their emotions NOW and anything you say, do, or try that prevents them from getting all that negativity off of themselves and onto you RIGHT NOW they see as abusive to THEM.  when i refuse to argue with my wife or justify to her why i feel a specific emotion if she thinks i shouldnt feel that emotion, then she says i'm not "communicating" with her and that i'm isolating her, leaving her on an island, etc etc etc.  but if i try to communicate why i'm feeling angry, annoyed, frustrated, or ANY negative emotion, it's an argument of why i am wrong to feel that way.  every time.  so i just dont engage with it, and she considers that to be abusive.

[Skip]

time-outs are generally a non-starter because borderlines need to vent their emotions NOW and anything you say, do, or try that prevents them from getting all that negativity off...

A valid point for sure. If someone is dysregulated, there is not a lot you can do. One tactic that will work is to sit, let it be said without arguing, repeating it back (cleaned up and short), and ask for time to think about it.

Since a lot of dysregulation falls in the category of extinction bursts... buying time to allow the person to return to baseline. We have had members in the past become quite good at managing the day to day.

Nothing is 100%, but we can learn how to disarm (or at least not amp up) using the basic tools and modifying by trial and error. We have had members achieve relative peace in the relationship. Certainly we have seen this with parents of BPD children. Children are often the most ill of the family members in this community. Partners, as a general rule, are relatively easier as most here are sub-clinical BPD - they are functioning.

This is the conflicted board, so I'll add this... once you learn how to manage it, you then have to answer the question, "is this a life I want or can sustain". There are often many external influences on this analysis (faith, children, finances, family, etc.).

BPD traits are difficult, they are permanent, they are not necessarily hopeless or fatal.