UBPDxw / alienation ... chaos.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hello again.

This post is about parallel parenting and likely alienation dynamics in play with my uBPD ex wife.  Please let me know if I'm in the wrong forum.

I've been attempting to parallel parent with my ex wife - formally for almost 2 years, informally for much longer. For context, we separated in September of 2021, and finalized the divorce in February of 2022.  This community was a tremendous help to me in 2020 as the marriage collapsed and I navigated out of FOG, etc.  I have three kids, D8, D12, and D15.  D15 has seen her own therapist on and off for several years, and suffers from periods of general anxiety .  

The highlight reel:

Ex parentifies D15, and exposed her to many details about the divorce throughout the process while seeking emotional support / alliance from our daughter.

Ex has repeatedly told D15 that I'm a narcissist, that I only care about myself, that I don't know how to be a parent, that only she knows what to do, etc. - accusations may be confessions, however D15 is a pleaser and has started to demonstrate hostility toward me and unconditional support for my ex, which clearly delights my ex.

Additional context, we have 50-50 parenting time and decision making for medical and education, which brings me to...

Ex sabotaged D15's therapy.  Long story, but the counselor and I had a good rapport and the counselor acknowledged to me that confronting or criticizing mom in any way would not fly... not long after, Ex had a confrontation with the counselor over schedule changes, told D15 that the counselor was no longer available (false), and as a result D15 declined to return even once I patched things up.

Ex has unilaterally scheduled medical appointments for the kids during my parenting time. Thus far I've kept the appointments on two occasions, but Ex has attempted to take the kids without my participation. Each time, it's a minefield of tantrums that takes energy and focus away from the kids.

Ex unilaterally attempted to enroll D12 in a private school. Long story short, she was unable to proceed with this one for obvious reasons, but claimed that D12's therapist and psychiatrist supported the change (both false) and attempted to construct an argument around negligence of "best interest of the child" - my counter argument:  All three kids, including D12, are performing at or above grade level, with zero concern from teachers or school counselors.  D12 in particular was most impacted by the pandemic and divorce (for various reasons I'll omit for now), and is best served by stability and continuity in school, in personal relationships, and in the new dual-home schedule and routine.  Another major disruption/change, following the divorce, pandemic, and transition to middle school is not in her best interest. Ex rages at this (and also discusses it with D15).

I could go on, but these are some examples of what I'm dealing with.

There have been multiple threats of further litigation from my Ex.  e.g., I received a letter from her attorney threatening to file a motion of contempt if I didn't observe the parenting schedule (before there was any actual contempt) because I proposed that we observe certain school holidays in a way that differed from the standard parenting plan. After I capitulated, Ex went ahead and asked me to take the kids on the the time that I proposed in the first place...  it's amazing how much of this is documented in writing.

Which brings me to today.

In the course of follow up on some summer activities and other non-threatening topics pertaining to the kids' schedule, Ex responded by stating (in writing) "Because of persistent manipulation, I am forced to look at you as a predator."  Again, accusations may be confessions, although I generally don't think of Ex as a predator, per se.  Manipulator, for sure.

I generally don't engage and don't respond to these statements, however even now it's very difficult to simply ignore.

And I am increasingly concerned about the damage that's being done to D15 via needlessly heightened anxiety, and potential impact to her self esteem, to say nothing of her ability to learn real coping skills and self-reliance instead of investing in a distorted dependency on mom, promoted by mom (or my own desire to have a healthy and loving relationship with my daughter).

I've read Childress and Parenting Jiu-Jitsu, and I practice and apply certain skills - but it's often very challenging as D15 becomes increasingly confrontational/rejecting - and reports various distorted/false claims to Ex (e.g., "dad yells at me" and "dad's house is a disaster" - false and false). I occasionally monitor D15's phone, and I'm often stunned by what I read between her and mom, about me - but I have not confronted D15 or Ex on this, yet.  

I'm not inclined to passively let this continue, but I don't have a clear vision of what to do or how to do it.  I do have a new therapist lined up for D15, which Ex has agreed to, but the schedule will not begin until the end of the summer.

And I'm particularly apprehensive of conflating my ex's behavior with D15's, however similar they may make me feel in moments of conflict.  At the end of the day, the optimist in me wants to believe that aspects of D15's behavior may be "normal" for any 15yo who just finished her first year of high school...  though it sure would be nice to get a thanks for those Taylor $wift tickets, for example.  And it's hard to overlook anecdotal comments about the link between BPD parents and children.

I know so many have it much, much worse.  Nonetheless, I know I need to do the best I can for my kids - and I feel like I'm not cutting it.  

Thoughts?  Any parenting stories from 2+ years out from divorce with BPDex?  Should I respond to the "predator" note in some way?  TIA.

[EyesUp]

Hello again.

This post is about parallel parenting and likely alienation dynamics in play with my uBPD ex wife.  Please let me know if I'm in the wrong forum.

I've been attempting to parallel parent with my ex wife - formally for almost 2 years, informally for much longer. For context, we separated in September of 2021, and finalized the divorce in February of 2022.  This community was a tremendous help to me in 2020 as the marriage collapsed and I navigated out of FOG, etc.  I have three kids, D8, D12, and D15.  D15 has seen her own therapist on and off for several years, and suffers from periods of general anxiety .  

The highlight reel:

Ex parentifies D15, and exposed her to many details about the divorce throughout the process while seeking emotional support / alliance from our daughter.

Ex has repeatedly told D15 that I'm a narcissist, that I only care about myself, that I don't know how to be a parent, that only she knows what to do, etc. - accusations may be confessions, however D15 is a pleaser and has started to demonstrate hostility toward me and unconditional support for my ex, which clearly delights my ex.

Additional context, we have 50-50 parenting time and decision making for medical and education, which brings me to...

Ex sabotaged D15's therapy.  Long story, but the counselor and I had a good rapport and the counselor acknowledged to me that confronting or criticizing mom in any way would not fly... not long after, Ex had a confrontation with the counselor over schedule changes, told D15 that the counselor was no longer available (false), and as a result D15 declined to return even once I patched things up.

Ex has unilaterally scheduled medical appointments for the kids during my parenting time. Thus far I've kept the appointments on two occasions, but Ex has attempted to take the kids without my participation. Each time, it's a minefield of tantrums that takes energy and focus away from the kids.

Ex unilaterally attempted to enroll D12 in a private school. Long story short, she was unable to proceed with this one for obvious reasons, but claimed that D12's therapist and psychiatrist supported the change (both false) and attempted to construct an argument around negligence of "best interest of the child" - my counter argument:  All three kids, including D12, are performing at or above grade level, with zero concern from teachers or school counselors.  D12 in particular was most impacted by the pandemic and divorce (for various reasons I'll omit for now), and is best served by stability and continuity in school, in personal relationships, and in the new dual-home schedule and routine.  Another major disruption/change, following the divorce, pandemic, and transition to middle school is not in her best interest. Ex rages at this (and also discusses it with D15).

I could go on, but these are some examples of what I'm dealing with.

There have been multiple threats of further litigation from my Ex.  e.g., I received a letter from her attorney threatening to file a motion of contempt if I didn't observe the parenting schedule (before there was any actual contempt) because I proposed that we observe certain school holidays in a way that differed from the standard parenting plan. After I capitulated, Ex went ahead and asked me to take the kids on the the time that I proposed in the first place...  it's amazing how much of this is documented in writing.

Which brings me to today.

In the course of follow up on some summer activities and other non-threatening topics pertaining to the kids' schedule, Ex responded by stating (in writing) "Because of persistent manipulation, I am forced to look at you as a predator."  Again, accusations may be confessions, although I generally don't think of Ex as a predator, per se.  Manipulator, for sure.

I generally don't engage and don't respond to these statements, however even now it's very difficult to simply ignore.

And I am increasingly concerned about the damage that's being done to D15 via needlessly heightened anxiety, and potential impact to her self esteem, to say nothing of her ability to learn real coping skills and self-reliance instead of investing in a distorted dependency on mom, promoted by mom (or my own desire to have a healthy and loving relationship with my daughter).

I've read Childress and Parenting Jiu-Jitsu, and I practice and apply certain skills - but it's often very challenging as D15 becomes increasingly confrontational/rejecting - and reports various distorted/false claims to Ex (e.g., "dad yells at me" and "dad's house is a disaster" - false and false). I occasionally monitor D15's phone, and I'm often stunned by what I read between her and mom, about me - but I have not confronted D15 or Ex on this, yet.  

I'm not inclined to passively let this continue, but I don't have a clear vision of what to do or how to do it.  I do have a new therapist lined up for D15, which Ex has agreed to, but the schedule will not begin until the end of the summer.

And I'm particularly apprehensive of conflating my ex's behavior with D15's, however similar they may make me feel in moments of conflict.  At the end of the day, the optimist in me wants to believe that aspects of D15's behavior may be "normal" for any 15yo who just finished her first year of high school...  though it sure would be nice to get a thanks for those Taylor $wift tickets, for example.  And it's hard to overlook anecdotal comments about the link between BPD parents and children.

I know so many have it much, much worse.  Nonetheless, I know I need to do the best I can for my kids - and I feel like I'm not cutting it.  

Thoughts?  Any parenting stories from 2+ years out from divorce with BPDex?  Should I respond to the "predator" note in some way?  TIA.

[kells76]

EyesUp, hi, thanks for the update -- wish it were under better circumstances 

There's a lot of moving parts there in your post, so I'll keep it brief for starters:

can you remind me if you had a L for the divorce/custody, and if you're still in touch with your L?

[EyesUp]

L - yes I did, and yes I am.

I've contacted my L twice since decree absolute, the first time was to seek advice - the second time was to provide a general update and summary of violations.

L's advice the first time (about a year ago) was to file a motion of contempt.  Given knowledge my judge, L expected I would be granted sole decision making and possibly majority parenting time, at least temporarily.  I recognize that this would be hugely disruptive to the kids, invite open conflict, and likely result in a court-ordered GAL, etc.  Not my preferred course of action.

More recently, I heard through the grapevine that Ex was seeking legal advice on Facebook, so invested an hour of L's time to provide a summary of activity for the past year.  L was impressed with organization - emails presented in chron order with appropriate/concise headings and key sections highlighted.  However, L understood that this was a defensive measure on my part to mitigate conflict if Ex initiates some legal action - which she has threatened on multiple occasions.

[kells76]

I get it about how the kids' other parent can "weaponize" your attempt at legal intervention against you, in a way.

It's really difficult when you'd hope you could negotiate directly with the other parent, but you know that she'll overshare it all with the kids (or with one kid in particular), and with a slant.

How much does your L seem to understand about the "meta" conflict that would happen in parallel with any legal conflict -- does your L seem to get how your ex would operate, and does s/he have any strategies about that?

...

Detail-wise, does your CO say that both parents must agree on school enrollment and medical visits? Wondering if it'd make a difference to provide copies of the CO to school and doctors, with a reminder that both parents must okay appointments and enrollment changes. Trickier if not.

And who pays for kid phones?

...

Overall, is the biggest issue right now that even though you would likely and quickly receive majority PT and sole decision making legally, your ex would have no qualms about "fighting dirty" and using that to manipulate the kids?

[ForeverDad]

Ex has repeatedly told D15 that I'm a narcissist, that I only care about myself, that I don't know how to be a parent, that only she knows what to do, etc.

Ex sabotaged D15's therapy.  Long story, but the counselor and I had a good rapport and the counselor acknowledged to me that confronting or criticizing mom in any way would not fly... not long after, Ex had a confrontation with the counselor over schedule changes, told D15 that the counselor was no longer available (false), and as a result D15 declined to return even once I patched things up.

Ex has unilaterally scheduled medical appointments for the kids during my parenting time. Thus far I've kept the appointments on two occasions, but Ex has attempted to take the kids without my participation.

I had trouble with these issues.  After my divorce I filed for contempt and predictably even though I felt in the right the court was reluctant to make a contempt verdict.

After more problems, I filed for custody and majority time.  As a major change to custody my lawyer filed for Change of Circumstances.  It was granted to proceed.  A Guardian ad Litem (GAL) was assigned and said her recommendation to the court would be that I get full custody (guardianship) but no change from equal parenting time so that she still had the option for child support.

Ex continued very entitled.  A couple years later I again filed for majority time and this time I got it.  She had always been disparaging me since even before we separated but in that decision (8 years after separation & divorce) the magistrate specifically stated several times in the written decision that disparagement of me before my child was a big factor in the decision.  Finally her entitlement was deflated a bit and we never returned to court.

In your case I'm sure you thought equal terms would be enough but that's not enough when dealing with entitlement issues.

If you do return to court, make sure you document clearly about your disparagement and how it has impacted the children.

Ex unilaterally attempted to enroll D12 in a private school.

And she was promising to pay for the extra costs?  Yeah, I thought not.  (This could also be about separating the kids?)  Always be very careful about details.  Here's one one dad reported here years ago.

Also, school will be an issue... who will be responsible for school?  Sounds like he is kindergarten age.  Don't get excluded from school.  And if you end up paying some or all school bills, make sure you are only liable for typical public school expenses.  Why?  One dad here agreed to pay all school expenses and then the mother surprised him by enrolling the kid in a private school with predictably high tuition fees.  The court told dad, "You agreed to pay for school expenses so pay them!"

[EyesUp]

@Kells - The divorce agreement states that I pay for the kids' health insurance and that we split any other costs not covered by insurance 50/50.  I am presently self-employed, so I fully pay for health insurance...

The agreement also states that I pay for the phones. I made sure this was in the agreement, and I knew Ex would not challenge me taking the cost - so it does give me a small amount of control, although I expect that this will eventually time out - I think there may be some state laws I need to keep in mind when D15 becomes D16. 

My concern about changes to the current agreement are primarily about further harm to the kids.They love their mother, and if anything have some concern about me - so if I proactively seek a modification, it would validate Ex's narrative that I'm out to undermine her, and the kids would certainly hear about it. Ex would certainly find subtle and not-so-subtle ways to communicate to the kids and anyone else who would listen.

While she's certainly capable of great harm, the way her BPD seems to operate is that she can be a good friend and caring person - until it either stops benefiting her to do so, or until she perceives a threat, or injury, or inadequacy - at which point she becomes adversarial and splits.

I've seen her do it to many past friends, colleagues, and family members - although family are always willing to forgive and move on. It seems to me that seeking a modification in parenting time can only be perceived as saying "she's not a good mother" which would be close to the ultimate insult - and invite maximum conflict in response... not to mention, blowback from the kids. Even keeping 50-50 parenting time while changing primary parent for decision making would be fraught with risk, and not necessarily achieve positive change.

@ForeverDad - There are certainly parallels in our circumstances. From my side, I don't have 8 years for this to play out - in 8 years, D12 and D15 will be out of the house, and D8 will be 16 with only two years left before college... Given that the court typically favors status quo, I would not expect a change in status at that late point unless there is constant, egregious behavior. Whatever is going to happen - it will be sooner, or not at all.

In regard to school costs - Ex got a new job at a private school shortly after we divorced. As an employee, I think that tuition would be no cost or very low cost, and she indicated that she would not expect me to pay. Our agreement states that we will share college expenses - I have no idea how she will do that if the kids want to enroll in $$$ private colleges.

Of course Ex wants the kids to attend her school, which would effectively split up the kids and give her more time with the younger ones by default. It's a Montessori school - suddenly, that's the only form of education that's viable, everything else is terrible - and I am a terrible parent who knows nothing about education...  she's even convinced D15 that the public school she attends is terrible. For reference, we are in a top district in the #1 state for public education, and all objective ratings for the schools are excellent, and this was part of our criteria when selecting this town.

I think she's actually split the schools, in part because the PTO didn't immediately make her president (exaggeration, but you get the point), and then because our kids' counselors didn't immediately give her everything she wanted (unreasonable accommodations that weren't really necessary), and then because the superintendent didn't immediately respond every email during the pandemic, and then because D8 and D12's teachers actually asked her to keep me cc:d on communication last year - i.e., the schools got hip to her act, and they know I'm the reasonable parent. So, Ex has a combination of motivations to want our younger kids to go her school. 

Yes, I've proactively offered to share the divorce agreement with all relevant health and edu parties, and a few have taken me up on it...  I make a point of establishing good rapport, not just for my own interest but also in the interest of the kids.

Last year Ex tried to establish "primary parent" status with the high school based on a bus pass application, as D15 rides the bus to Ex's house, but not to mine...  it's all in black and white, in writing.

Which brings me back around to my motivation to post... maybe I need to vent, but more likely I need a sounding board. I understand that the endless emails and texts are evidence - if not for presentation to the judge, than at least they can serve as evidence to me - to see clearly what is and isn't happening.  Most of the time, I don't respond - but, occasionally, I have a hard time deciding how or if to respond - if only to demonstrate a reasonable response, and also to clearly demonstrate that I don't accept false claims - I'm mindful that opposing counsel might try to construct some argument downstream based on uncontested claims.  It's a bit legalistic, since I feel I may be pulled into court at some point - but it's also a bit emotional, as no one likes to be called a manipulator or predator...

Thanks, both, for following along.

[livednlearned]

Usually when I post here it's about my own experiences with a BPDx and the legal hellscape and alienation served up by that charming man.

But so much of what you shared is what my current (non-BPD) husband experienced with his ex wife (BPD bio mom) and in particular his middle daughter (now 26, and very likely BPD herself). SD26 was 16 when they divorced.

Some of this is a combination of our two experiences with alienation:

* Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak offers things that Childress does not. He also helps you categorize the different categories of alienation that show up in communication. It's almost like a playbook for conversational alienation.

* Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids helps take the focus off what your ex is doing so you can focus on what you're modeling for the kids: managed emotions, moderate behaviors, flexible thinking. I was doing a lot of that but I was also exuding a tremendous amount of anxiety and intensity that in retrospect was very off-putting for my son when it was our custodial time. It's kind of a way for the disordered ex to be present, always. After reading Eddy, I tried to treat my time with S11 almost like mindful validation and attentiveness. He was starved for that kind of curiosity and interest. It was challenging -- I was working 50 hours while getting my doctorate and the custody battle was at times its own full-time job. But it was critical.

Something else that was very helpful when S11 was a tween/early teen - I kept kind of a running agenda threaded throughout our conversations about the difference between secrecy, lying, privacy, forgetfulness, manipulation. S11 and I read a lot of books together so I used that material to ask him questions, but you can do this with other media like tv shows or movies. That tactic might actually come from Warshak.

S11's abilities to spot these differences is sharper than most people and I have to wonder if it goes back to those thought exercises. When n/BPDx spun up a campaign about how I had an affair and that's why I left, S11 trusted his own ability to figure out what was true and what wasn't. I admit that S11 was bonded to me in ways he wasn't with his dad, but the intoxication of finally getting his dad's attention (maybe a same-gender thing?) ripped through our relationship pretty hard.

S11 also came to conclusions in ways that were different than what I expected, but he still did it largely on his own.

With H, his story mirrors more of what you describe. He was at risk of losing SD26 to parental alienation but she had a psychotic break and that ended *bad therapy* (with a counselor who refused to even talk to H) and started *effective therapy* (with someone recommended by the psychiatrist). BPD mom was shook by the psychotic break so she became temporarily cooperative.

Similar to what you described, BPD bio mom tried to sabotage the effective therapeutic relationship. When she couldn't get rid of the counselor, she started to pour garbage in SD26's head and tried to turn her against the counselor. SD26 stayed, but she also took breaks for stretches at a time, probably to modulate her mom's tirades.

Last, this is hard to say. We know that BPD behaviors are more harmful for the kids than our behaviors. But being better than BPD still leaves a lot of room for introspection and growth. n/BPDx used to call me a narcissist and megalomaniac. He would say I was self-absorbed and only cared about myself. He was wrong on all counts.

However, he also gave me some clues about what mattered to S11 if S11 parroted similar things. I hope that makes sense. S11 didn't parrot everything n/BPDx said, only some things. I started to get curious about what stuck with S11, and why he thought this or that, what was I doing to make him feel that way, etc. If my normal pace of discussion is 50 mph, I slowed things down to 2mph with S11. I let him tell me how he felt, what he thought, even when it was super painful. I didn't chime in, or tell him he was wrong (well, I did, but I tried not to), I mostly tried to let him blow off steam and get it out there, and let it be heard and felt and shared. I was late for a lot of meetings and had to cancel things and kind of had to change the entire way I parented. He's mad about something that happened at after school? Let's take as long as it takes to get into it.

H has not done this with his kids. He is right that all three kids experienced degrees of alienation, and takes at face value that any contempt they display toward him is because of things BPD biomom say. To me it seems more complex. Yes, those things happened and she did and said those things and they have some un-brainwashing to work through.

I also see how the kids are starved for validation and want him to be curious about their lives and listen to them. They're affectionate, they check in, they are family. But they are trying to connect to H and can't quite get there, and that's not a BPD mom thing. That's H kind of talking at them and seeing them from his perspective, instead of trying to look at life from theirs. H's youngest and oldest kids like me a lot, and H often jokes that they like me better than him. If that's true, it's only because I do with them what I learned to do with S22. They tell me more stuff about BPD bio mom than they tell H, which is probably not surprising. I think it's simply a sign I can be neutral even though some of the questions I ask them are not.

I apologize if this is all self-evident to you. It wasn't to me and I think I was a decent or good enough parent. It's just that our kids get damaged in specific ways and it might not be as intuitive to us what they need, making certain skills necessary to learn.

[EyesUp]

@livednlearned

Appreciate the comments.  Great reminder to revisit Warshak - I've re-read about half of Divorce Poison in the past day or so, and it's amazing to take another look with fresh eyes. When I first read DP, I was apprehensive - but now so many of the patterns are crystalized in my experience that's it's much easier to focus. I'm particularly struck by the mantra throughout each chapter - "take action".  He's absolutely right that conventional wisdom is to take a long view, and I've been struggling to do this while feeling that passivity is not helping on any level.

D15 is home from camp in two weeks, and restarts therapy at the end of August - so timing is key.  For all three kids, in fact.

I appreciate your comment about a "running agenda" - recurring themes.  I am already promoting a "think for yourself" theme, but I feel it might be too subtle and not resonating. 

Can you elaborate a bit more re: n/BPDx?  What did you mean about giving you clues?  I'm attuned to the idea that accusations are confessions and whatever pops up with X toward me might actually be more indicative of what's going on with her.  With the kids, it's more nuanced because my sense is that they are already keeping secrets - so I don't always get a preview of what mom is saying or attitudes that might be cultivated.  So many examples, but one is I told the kids where I planned to take them for dinner after a dance recital.  When the moment came, they mentioned that they were just there with mom - she took them after a rehearsal a few days prior.  Of course they didn't tell mom about my plan, and didn't tell me that they went with mom until the last minute...  this is a small example that's easy to convey - but this sort of secret sabotage happens all the time.  This might be a tangent. 

Anyway, thanks for reading along.

[Pook075]

Hey Eyes, thanks for posting and I am so sorry for what you're going through.  I'm filing for no-contest divorce in a few weeks (even though she left me for another guy) and I feel your pain.  For me, my kids are young adults but the ex has done everything possible to turn them against me and to keep me from seeing my 11 month old grandson.

I don't have any direct advice other than to say, "This too shall pass."  Your relationship with your kid may be rocky today, but you can't live your life defending every crazy thing your ex throws out there.  By doing so, it keeps the marriage alive in that she's still holding you accountable daily for her craziness.  That's not good, my friend, and it's continuing the cycle of abuse.

Instead, just focus on your kid and be the best possible parent that you can be.  Maybe things are said, but you have to just let them go and do your absolute best to show your kid that you love them and will always be there for them no matter what.  At the end of the day, that's all your kid wants anyway and they will eventually see, "Huh, mom is bat-&$%# crazy with all this stuff she says."

In my case, once I stopped defending the accusations and just focused on my daughter, she began to see that her mom was being overly harsh and that I didn't really do anything wrong.  More importantly though, she was able to see that all my focus was on her, her husband, and the grandbaby, and our relationship is stronger today than it's ever been.  It took around 6 months though after I stopped defending myself and just focused on what really matters- having my kids in my life and being a great dad.

I know it's incredibly hard not to react to ridiculous accusations, but that's not your job anymore.  Just be the best possible parent you can be, use the legal system if there's no other option, and this too shall pass!  I hope that helps.

[EyesUp]

@Pook - I appreciate the consideration and response, but you and I are dealing with apples and oranges.

My X frequently tells D15 that I'm a narcissist, and advises her on how to manage me. The result is extraordinary entitlement, conflict, and combativeness - which also has a chilling effect on D12 and D8.  D15 has recorded me, sent the recordings to X, and asked "can you use this with your attorney?" - X responds, "thank you, we'll see - now please delete this" - the substance of the recording is me calmly saying "I know you're looking out for your little sister, and I appreciate it.  But school decisions are for mom and dad, and at the moment mom and dad don't agree.  The good news is that your sister is doing well.  And I also want you to know that I will never put you in the middle between me and mom" - to which X responds: "He's an asshole and has no idea what he's talking about.  And D15 responds "I know, he never listens"

I know all this because I monitor my kids' devices from time to time.  Many, many more disparaging comments.  This has been going on for 2 years, and the situation is getting worse - not better.

D15 is energized by an alliance with mom.  She loves being involved in adult topics and on the inside with mom - it's a sort of validation for D15.  X has no idea how damaging this is because she's also energized by "winning" and does all the disparaging stuff that BPDs do - play the victim card, enlist flying monkeys, etc etc etc. - even with our kids.

D15 has told me "you only think of yourself" and "I don't want to be here" and "you can't make me do anything" and "you're only being nice to compete with mom".  And then texts mom "dad yelled at me again" - at this point, I'm recording everything in the home 24/7 in order to be ready to counter false claims...

This is not going to go away from 6 months of calm or taking the high road or simply avoiding direct conflict.

As I noted to @livenlearned above, Warshak is all about "take action" - and he describes a number of tactics such as "strike while the iron is cold" and indirect means of communicating to do so - he's not an advocate for confrontation or anything that could be perceived as criticism or invalidation by the alienated kid.  At the moment, that sounds a LOT better than playing the long game and praying for a good outcome. I'm more inclined to be proactive here.  
Unlike your situation with older kids and grandkids, I'm dealing with young kids - girls - who are predisposed to model mom's disordered behavior. This isn't just about my feelings (which took a back seat for 15 years of marriage to BPDx - so I'm not exactly Mr. Front of the Line, and putting everyone else's feelings ahead of mine is somewhat second nature at this point) - This is about the best interest of the kids - and my current thinking is to take Warshak's advice:  Take Action.

I've got some work to do with D15's therapist, among other things.

I'm glad to hear that your situation with your D has improved. I'm sure there are some good lessons in there. I wonder: Do your kids know about their mom's affair?  Are your STBX's alienating behaviors an attempt to shift blame to you and away from her for the end of the marriage? 

In my case, BPDx had an affair, would not/could not participate in couples therapy - shifted the narrative away from repairing trust into a completely new accusation against me:  financial abuse.  The fact that she quit her high paying job and then proceeded to rack up huge debt for 3 years was reframed as I would not let her have equal access to all accounts.  Damn right - because she would never have a collaborative discussion about a budget, and so there was never any agreement. I'm glad I had the good sense to enforce that boundary. In a rare moment of candor, BPDx admitted that when she could not self-soothe by shopping, she turned her attention to men...  After getting caught banging D8's best friend's dad, things came to a head. It was not an exit affair, he was almost 20yrs younger and he dumped her around the same time I got wise. That rejection was crippling for her.

I am so grateful to be starting a new chapter and free from unbalanced marriage - but I still need to parent with this person for some time to come. I gave D8 pictures of mom for her room at my house. I remind all the kids that both parents love them, even if we don't do things the same way, or the way we used to. I model good behavior, I take the high road. The kids have no idea about mom's affairs, and I see no reason to change that - I mention this here only because BPDx's shame is the real driver - she wants to turn the kids against me because she is fearful of the consequences if they learn more about her behavior.  Maybe we have something in common in this regard.

[Pook075]

@Pook - I appreciate the response, but you and I are dealing with apples and oranges.

I'm pretty sure we're both dealing with oranges (or apples, whatever your preference).  Because here's the thing, for now, your ex and kid are bonding over "dad just doesn't get it."  The more you fight that, the more it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy that proves your ex right.  The key is breaking that cycle while also showing your kid that you truly care about her best interests.

Anyway, just my opinion...no biggie that we disagree.  I wish you luck in any case and hopefully someone else has different ideas or experiences on how to help you.

[livednlearned]

Can you elaborate a bit more re: n/BPDx?  What did you mean about giving you clues? 

By clues, I mean that n/BPDx would dump garbage in S11's head but not all of it bothered S11. Like, "Your mother thinks she can live on her own but she can't so you'll be living back here." S11 took this to heart and it worried him because he felt safe with the new living arrangements. That was a clue to find ways to reassure S11 (without being direct) that our living situation was solid.

Versus something else n/BPDx told S11 that didn't bother S11. He told me n/BPDx said I was using his phone to spy on n/BPDx and S11, and he said it like "isn't that ridiculous." So that was a clue. He didn't care about me spying on him, even if it were true.

However, similar to what you wrote about the way your ex's allegations are confessions, I took that piece of info as a sign that n/BPDx either wanted to, or tried to, or did put spyware on the phone. But as far as S11 was concerned, that's not something he was too worried about so I didn't address it like I did with other information.

A few things that S11 brought to me were laughable, and I actually did laugh, which I later learned from a Childress youtube is a recommended response. n/BPDx apparently told S11 that I would never take him to a baseball game because none of my boyfriends liked baseball. When S11 said that to me, I laughed out loud. I remember S11's face. He had looked so pensive then his face broke open into a smile and he seemed so relieved. Like, "Yeah, that's crazy. I thought so." It kills me how abusive alienation is to these kids.

It sounds like your kids are more like H's kids who were put in a much tighter loyalty bind. With H and his three kids, he had a punishing work schedule so he was with them less. I notice they were, and still are, very very careful about what they share with him. It seems to me everything about our lives is shared with BPD mom but very little about BPD mom/affair partner's lives is shared with us, unless it's a slip. H still has a relationship with his ex-mother-in-law (he prevented BPD ex from cutting her off from her grandkids) and finds things out that way. But he uses the information in a casual way, slipping it into the conversation. Only then will they comment because the information is not considered secret at that point.

With the kids, it's more nuanced because my sense is that they are already keeping secrets - so I don't always get a preview of what mom is saying or attitudes that might be cultivated. 

That's tough. Have you looked at Ryan Thomas Speaks? https://ryanthomasspeaks.com/

I wonder if his insights might be helpful, even if his alienation was all-encompassing.

[EyesUp]

@livednlearned - had not seen Ryan, will check it out - thanks again.

[EyesUp]

Wow, Ryan Thomas sure uses ye olde ecommerce playbook - countdown timer (first clue: there is no limit on capacity for pre-recorded sessions or digital media, so any attempt to create perceived scarcity is false), and a long, drawn-out sales pitch (get the reader to make a huge investment in time so that the eventual purchase is a "logical" conclusion).  Classic presentation going back 20+ years online, and much, much longer offline.

Personally, I haven't seen a pitch like this in a while, but it's historically and unfortunately common in the "internet help" community.  It made me a bit uncomfortable to see someone offer help and use manipulative tactics at the same time. 

Thomas is not on Scribd or Amazon - just his own direct sale website.

He might have something good to offer, but his approach is super sketchy.  YMMV. 

[livednlearned]

Ew. I'm sorry to hear that. I only know his name from (usually) fathers who have worked with him. It sounds like he has become quite slick. Yuck.

I had a similar experience with a dog trainer site and felt like I was going to end up in a pyramid scheme.

Thanks for coming back to share what you discovered.

[EyesUp]

I found a few of his free youtube videos. I have a feeling that he has something constructive to say - behind a paywall. Fair enough. However he does it in the same manner as a lot of scammy content people ("learn how to... lose weight, get out debt, go solar for free, build muscle after 50... ") etc etc etc.

He's also on Facebook. I cannot imagine using Facebook for any sensitive topics - I keep it because it seems to be the only way to be connected to the PTO.  It's interesting to me that there are so many communities for recovery, self care, etc. - where the most vulnerable people are on a platform operated by the lowest of low-trust organizations.  Facebook changes their awesome privacy policy more often than I get my haircut - what are the chances that participation in a parental alienation forum on Facebook could be exposed unforeseen ways? Pretty high, I'd say.

It's another reason I'm grateful for this place - where there is a degree of privacy/anonymity, amazing resources, and compassionate moderators.

[livednlearned]

I found a few of his free youtube videos. I have a feeling that he has something constructive to say

If I remember correctly, the gist of his message is to not give up even if indoctrination is successful. His father that he reunited with apparently sent birthday gifts without fail, and I think volunteered at? visited? the school so he could get access to his son, among other acts of love (despite being cast as a demon). There's probably more to it than that but the message I remember boiled down to "have hope."

It's such an extreme thing to happen and so deeply toxic in a culture that has profound blind spots about PDs and alienation that it is no small feat to maintain hope.  I've also found, now that my kid is a young adult, that I underestimated how much he was actually listening to me. I got a lot of blank stares and he was so hard to read at times. There is something about being a normal-range parent, and using the tips in these books, that made an impact, even though it took a long time to see those results. The caveat is that I think mom-daughter alienation might be double intense.

Which brings me back around to my motivation to post... maybe I need to vent, but more likely I need a sounding board. I understand that the endless emails and texts are evidence - if not for presentation to the judge, than at least they can serve as evidence to me - to see clearly what is and isn't happening.  Most of the time, I don't respond - but, occasionally, I have a hard time deciding how or if to respond - if only to demonstrate a reasonable response, and also to clearly demonstrate that I don't accept false claims - I'm mindful that opposing counsel might try to construct some argument downstream based on uncontested claims.  It's a bit legalistic, since I feel I may be pulled into court at some point - but it's also a bit emotional, as no one likes to be called a manipulator or predator...

I think it's wise to have the expectation that things could end up in front of a judge. Your kids have a right to have a relationship with both parents and if she takes that right away what choice do you have? The flip side is that legal actions could escalate her behaviors, as you pointed out. Then you're battling for the hearts and minds of your kids while potentially gaining more custodial time and/or rights. This was the exact dilemma H was in and he did what you are doing, which to me seems more like playing the long game. It's hard to explain to people just how dicey things are when there are early signs of alienation and pushing too hard could backfire, even if pushing means gaining custody, and especially when the kids are older and can vote with their feet.

[EyesUp]

This past weekend was visiting day at camp.

D12 and D15 have been there for 3 weeks and will return home next weekend.

My X tried to get me to cancel with multiple text messages telling me that it was raining (I read the forecast, thanks - no, I'm not a fair weather dad), that the camp director was discouraging people from attending (strange, no communication from camp), etc etc.

I made the ~2 hour drive and saw my kids.

D15 gave me a cold shoulder.  It was a bit heart breaking, actually.  On one side, it wouldn't even occur to me to miss visiting day.  On the other side, the experience of attempting to work through what's happening during and after this sort of experience feels a bit like attempting to navigate my n/BPD X's behaviors during our marriage.  I don't want to associate my daughter with my X, or unfairly project anything on to her - however it's not so easy to respond.  There are some very basic parental boundaries that seem to not apply here - because they would be perceived as invalidating my D15. 

I've got two weeks with all three kids coming up in August, and I'm not entirely sure how to avoid being sabotaged by D15 in front of her younger sisters - I'm pretty sure she wants to turn them against me, right along with n/BPD x.

Tons of positive reinforcement hasn't worked thus far with D15.

[livednlearned]

D15 gave me a cold shoulder.  It was a bit heart breaking, actually.

Was this happening when mom was around? Or was it when D15 was with you alone?

[EyesUp]

I arrived at camp with D8 who was only there for 2 weeks in a starter program.

X made multiple attempts to dissuade me from going, but I was not going to miss visiting day.

Upon arrival at D15's cabin, she saw D8 and invited her right in.  I followed.  The only people in the cabin were D15, D15's friend and cabin-mate, and her friend's mom - who I have met before.  The mom was friendly.  D15 did not greet me and would not make eye contact.  She chatted with her sister.  Her friend, who has previously stayed at my house - was also a bit avoidant. 

D15 was gregarious with her friend and sister, but acted like I was invisible.  I joined the conversation with D15's friend's mom a couple of times.

At one point, I reached for my backpack to get out something I brought for D15 - she initially made a very disapproving face, but then accepted the package when she realized what it was (new hoodie I ordered for her birthday, arrived after she left for camp).

X was not present - she had already left - it's a girls' camp, and moms can sleep over in tents on visiting weekend, dads are allowed only on Sunday afternoon. 

I can't help but speculate that X had both D15 and D12 100% to herself in a tent for two nights, and may have delivered a concentrated dose of anti-dad messages.  She's particularly upset at the moment that she needs to go on her employer's health plan instead of the family plan that I provide at my expense.

She also suggested that I don't need to go to pickup this weekend, which doesn't make sense because we've never been able to fit everything in one car - of course she'd probably have her boyfriend help. 

Of course I will go to pickup.

It feels like the machinations are in overdrive, and succeeding.

[livednlearned]

That is excruciatingly painful to read.

I think a lot of us look into the abyss and see the alienation take root, and my god the dread. There is nothing like it. I've never felt such helplessness.

You ignored your ex and went anyway because you see what's happening. If D15 had said don't come, would you have visited regardless?

You've probably read a lot of alienation stories and know that each case is so specific. It's hard to predict what may or may not happen. But if it helps, I think H's experience is hopeful. Like you, he persevered and had to take a long-game approach.

How he persevered was different with each kid, and each of them had their own degree of alienation to work through.

With H's oldest (SD29), she was swept pretty deep into alienation behaviors in her teens but the spell broke a bit when she protested some of her mom's behaviors and was split black. Going to college gave her some perspective. She needed H and he was consistently there for her, and things thawed a bit then warmed and their relationship is now stable. Sometimes I see flashes of contempt that I think are rooted in alienation. To me as an outsider, but also someone who saw alienation in my own marriage, it seems like these are moments when she can't see H clearly. It could be over something benign but I often have this image in my mind of a child stomping her foot. Her anger can turn into contempt and that seems odd given that H is a great dad by all measures. Yet, when she's expressing contempt, you would think he had joined a band, become a drug addict, and looted her college fund.

The middle child has uBPD.

The youngest was the most severely alienated. It is 10 years later, he is 24, and BPD mom is all but sabotaging him as he tries to launch, while simultaneously forcing him to move out.

There's a lot going on there, but what strikes me about his story is that H continued to be in his life even though SS24 shunned him. H would drive 5.5 hours to see SS24 when he was in high school, and SS24 refused to come to the door. He made health excuses or said he had too much homework. SS24 wouldn't socialize with H's side of the family, including a cousin born the same day. 10 years later, SS24 is flying out to spend a week with us and is slowly warming to his dad.

SS24 and I happened to meet before I met H, and we have an interesting relationship -- I suspect he likes me because of the relationship and communication skills I learned here.

He will tell me how he can't be alone with H because of a vague "past history" that SS24 never elaborates on but suggests he was abused. Then, when he's around H, SS24 is the one to initiate physical contact and there is genuine affection. It is tempting to point out the contradiction but we're just relieved the alienation seems to be thawing.

There were many times in the last 10 years when H wanted to walk away. It was brutal to drive 11 hours for what seemed like nothing but looking back, it was something.

One thing H started to do as the kids got older was to drop seemingly neutral language that kind of leads to alienation. For example, loyalty bind. H was angry one year when SS24 had refused to see him, yet asked H to pay for martial arts, a lifeline at the time. The texts escalated and I remember H writing, "Being put in a loyalty bind with your mom might make it hard for you to see how much I love you buddy. Nothing is going to change that."

A few weeks ago SS24 told me he's reading the book I'm Glad My Mom Died by Jeannette McCurdy, and hinted that he finds the book personally meaningful.

I don't know if any of this is helpful. Parental alienation is like living on the razor's edge. It seems like a puff of wind could blow things one way or the other but just being on that edge hurts like hell.

[EyesUp]

Thanks, LnL.

I appreciate hearing about your experience.  A year ago, I understood and prepared for the long game. 12 short months later, I'm getting impatient and questioning the wisdom of watching this process slowly unfold...

I feel that "fortune favors the bold" applies here,  because the alienator is certainly bold - and often prevails to varying degrees for a period of time. I prevailed, somewhat, through the D process by refusing to compromise on parenting time or decision making, when n/BPDx expected me to capitulate the same way I often would when it was time to pick where to go for dinner (you can guess who usually got to decide because it was simply never worth fighting about).

I've had several fantastic days with D8 since she returned from camp about 2 weeks ago. I will see D12 and D15 at pickup tomorrow (although n/BPDx tried to dissuade me from joining). The kids may come to my house for a short visit on Sunday before they spend next week with their mom at their grandfather's house (I expect an attempt to sabotage this short visit). I'm glad for their time with their grandfather - he and his wife are great people. However I'm apprehensive about D12 and D15 spending what amounts to 5 weeks away from me (camp + one week with mom and grandfather), particularly D15, and what I might be facing when all the kids finally return to me in August.

It occurred to me that this might be the moment to flip the script and file a motion of contempt for disparagement. Without going into all the detail, I have fairly complete documentation of n/BPDx's flagrant violation of our decree which has an explicit non-disparagement clause. The motion would be to gain a temp order to be primary decision maker for school and health in parallel with a custody evaluation. I can't imagine that n/BPDx's impulse control will work to her advantage. The goal would not be to seek a modification in parenting time at this point, although I realize that a modification could get rolled in now or later.

I've been concerned about how the kids would respond to this. I think the obvious short term impacts are difficult, to say the least - however this action would necessarily bring things to light that can then be openly addressed by the kids' therapists.

Of course there's uncertainty throughout.

But short term pain for long term gain makes a lot of sense to me.  If nothing else, the kids would learn why the police came to the house that one time, and some of the real reasons why mom and dad got divorced.

The alternative is to allow D15 and likely D12 to follow to become increasingly alienated.

I do know that I'd rather get in front of this, then react to what feels like an inevitable motion from the other side.  When we were still married, my n/BPDx threatened to call in a false DV. At that moment, I knew I had to call 911 - and I did. Taking that action was enormously helpful. When the police came, an attentive detective asked me what happened to my shirt. I had not noticed that my n/BPDx had grabbed my shirt, and part of it was crushed where she grabbed while the rest was still pressed. The detective was able to validate my version of events.

I sort of feel like this might be a similar moment - I can take action, or I'll almost certainly be facing false accusations from n/BPDx and/or D15. 

Maybe there's some middle action that between passivity and initiating legal conflict?

[kells76]

Your kids' mom had a lawyer for the divorce, right?

I wonder if a "middle ground" could be: your L contacts her L and says "You need to know that your client is flagrantly violating the agreement and it isn't even close. Mr. EyesUp gave me cell phone records and this looks bad for Ms. ExEyesUp. Get your client under control and doing ABC by next Friday or we have no choice but to escalate in order to protect the children. Mr. EyesUp will not tolerate the kids being harmed this way so this is Ms. ExEyesUp's one chance to get right."

Curious if having your L tell her L to talk to her would have any effect. It would at least be documentable (emails/paper trail).

[EyesUp]

Thanks, Kells.

Yes, Ms. ExEyesUp has an atty. 

At one point, he told my atty that he would not work with X after the D was final (there was a lot of surprising back channel comms), yet he has continued. 

X recently posted on FB that she's seeking a new atty.  We're not connected directly, but she remains connected to mutual friends and some of my family who share some of her more flagrant or otherwise poor judgement posts with me...  (in fact, D15 sees X's IG posts, which occasionally delve into a (false) victim of abuse narrative...  I consider this to be disparagement to the entire community). I mention all this because I'm not sure that X's atty has effective influence on his client, and even if he is partially effective, he may not be sufficiently motivated to play the role you propose.

I'm also concerned that this approach could serve to drive X's interaction with D15 underground. i.e., I would expect that X would tell D15 that I spy on her (never mind the fact that we have a device agreement with each of our kids that explicitly states that we have the right to check on appropriate device use).  Not sure what the next action would be if X's behaviors continue over the next 3, 6, 12 months, etc. - I think the documentation I have today has a shelf life...

I am feeling that now is the time to use these phone/text records in one form or another - so I appreciate this idea. Food for thought!

[livednlearned]

One thing that happened in our case (seems to not be common at least on these boards) is a deposition.

It does move things toward legal pathways although it can also act as a deterrent for trial.

My ex's lawyer asked for the deposition. According to my L, depositions help lawyers size up the credibility of both parties. They get to see what we might be like as witnesses.

My L came in with two 3-ring binders filled with documentation and ex's lawyer realized right away he had a problem, and it was his client. The deposition changed opposing strategy, with ex's L trying to get his client to stand down. It helped me see the before and after of an opposing attorney getting an accurate picture of what kind of client he had.

Would you consider a consult with Childress to get a second opinion on your strategy? I don't much about him other than a few youtube videos and his website. Some members here have reached out but I'm not sure how things turned out. He's in California I think.

One thing my 4 years in court taught me: go to court like you and the judge are allies. You two are problem solvers together. If you have a problem with mom, propose a reasonable solution. It could be parenting classes, it could be a parenting coordinator. Without that mindset, our cases can look like both parents are high conflict. If you suggest a solution, make sure there are no loopholes. For example, say you're concerned mom is going to keep switching therapists on D15. "If mom lets a therapist go, dad chooses the next therapist." Or, "If mom lets a therapist go, dad will select 3 therapists and mom must choose within x weeks of receipt. If she has not selected one within that timeframe, dad picks."

Our proposals do best when there are consequences for non-compliance built into them (dad chooses therapist if mom hasn't done so by day/date). And coming to the judge with solutions to problems shows we aren't children who need grown ups to settle a beef. I don't know what the right solution is for disparagement but it could be family counseling with you and D15, it could be getting a parenting coordinator (if that's a thing in your state). It could be that she's put on notice that continued disparagement will result in a change in custody.

Motions for contempt are treated almost like parking tickets, in my experience. On its own, it's not much, but a pattern of them is a sign something is going on.

I remember a divorced couple in court once arguing about whether mom was obstructing communication between dad and his kid. It came down to the child's cell phone and even knowing about alienation, I couldn't tell if the mom was nuts or if the kid genuinely was afraid of her dad. It's so hard to tell, even when there is evidence. I remember how aggravated the judge seemed to be.

I always felt like I had to show up in court and punch through the noise. When I figured out that solutions and consequences for non-compliance were helping me move forward even when n/BPDx was stonewalling, it helped the judge help me, if that makes sense. He could see that one person was trying to genuinely solve a problem and the other one was creating chaos no matter what, including fighting solutions that would solve things he claimed were problems. A real  

[EyesUp]

@LnL - thanks for this.

The consultation with Childress had not occurred to me - although I have an option to consult with a local GAL who is well known in my county, and I've been mulling it over...

It would be interesting to learn how Childress would approach my situation.

I'm not sure my judge would appreciate showing up with an expensive expert at this juncture, but it could be helpful to begin to map out resources in case it gets to that point.

Since the D is final, we're past the point of a deposition, although I take the larger point about demonstrating to OC what he might be facing.  Again, that's tipping a hand, a bit - the real issue is that I cannot be sure how X will respond - she's heavily invested in her narrative and is unlikely not aware that it's false - although she is aware what she's doing is wrong, or least won't make her look good - she texted D15 and asked her to delete certain texts...  For whatever reason, D15 didn't delete that one! 

So here's what I've got:
- persistent pattern of disparagement via text ("he's an asshole")
- persistent pattern of checking in via text and phone whenever the kids are with me (tons and tons of "how's it going?" messages...
- persistent pattern of sabotage during my time with kids (e.g., "he's taking you to the worst hotel in NYC, I can't imagine why he picked that place" - meanwhile, it's the #1 rated new hotel in the city...)
- persistent pattern of seeding doubt (e.g., "what is dad doing for dinner? something that's not too unhealthy, I hope")

In parallel, D15 will barely talk to me, when she does it's overtly confrontational/critical.  It makes D12 and D8 uncomfortable.

D15 once claimed that I assaulted her, and has also texted mom that "dad screamed at me" - both false, I have time stamped voice recordings.  Several other similar false claims.

Some documentation that X sabotaged D15's relationship with her last therapist.

Some additional documentation of wider disparagement of me via social media.

So, first question is:  How common is filing a motion of contempt for disparagement?  Feels a bit... fussy?  I appreciate that the court is dealing with cases that involve violence and drug use and many forms of abuse - there is no question that X's behavior is abusive - to me and the kids - but I don't want to come across as an angry or entitled ex-spouse...   What would be the proposed solution in this case (I like the idea about parenting class, custody coordinator, and/or custody evaluator - which X would HATE).  Family therapy is likely not a good path, as X cannot be trusted to be a sincere participant.

Thanks for brainstorming with me.

 

[kells76]

So, first question is:  How common is filing a motion of contempt for disparagement?  Feels a bit... fussy?  I appreciate that the court is dealing with cases that involve violence and drug use and many forms of abuse - there is no question that X's behavior is abusive - to me and the kids - but I don't want to come across as an angry or entitled ex-spouse...   What would be the proposed solution in this case (I like the idea about parenting class, custody coordinator, and/or custody evaluator - which X would HATE).  Family therapy is likely not a good path, as X cannot be trusted to be a sincere participant.

One thought is that, while I don't know how common motions about disparagement are, I think I remember you mentioning that it is in the parenting plan. So in a way, it's less about the specific thing going on (because that can derail us -- "there are kids getting beaten and I'm concerned about a mean text?"), and more about -- the PP is a legal document. It is the bare minimum expectation that legal instructions get respected and followed. It doesn't matter that "well she might think that disparagement isn't as bad as denying parenting time" -- it's all part of the legal requirement and she can't say "this part wasn't as important, in my opinion".

Your read on what she'd be trusted to participate in is important. Sounds like setting up a parallel track of things for her to complete on her own would be more successful than "forced participation together". Consider being open to having the requirements on her apply equally to you, if that's incentive for her to agree. The thing is, it'll be way easier for you to agree to take the parenting class and consent to have a CC/CE, and she'll get hung up on "I don't need that, I don't have time for that, I don't have a problem...". Talk with your L, but if there's resistance to having only her be the one required to do ABC, see if you saying "OK then, we BOTH do ABC by Day/Date" pushes things along. It might even shine a light on which parent is open to problemsolving and which one isn't. The only drawback would be if your L thinks that in your situation, that might hint "both parents are the problem", which isn't the case.

Like LnL suggested, proposing reasonable solutions lets her be the one to "hang herself with that rope" to use a phrase. For example, with the persistent "checking in" texts, if you propose that each parent may send X number of texts per day between the hours of 9am and 9pm during the other parent's PT, let her be the one to argue why that isn't workable.

I'm wondering now, too -- in the past, some parents have been required to use court-ordered software for any/all child related communications (something like Our Family Wizard). This takes away the argument that "he's stalking my phone records" or whatever, because all communications from both parents are captured there and are court-admissable. I wonder if you can add a way to track parent-child communications with some kind of court-ordered app/software? kind of like -- "okay, either parent can text or call the kids as much as desired, but it must be through App XYZ only", where App XYZ gets reviewed periodically.

And even if that doesn't exist, I think what I'm angling for is some way to get you out of the "villain" seat of "Dad's the bad one for spying on the texts", and move that to a CC/CE like you suggested getting. Something like -- the CE shall review every text/email/call transcript between the parents and the kids every week, and shall recommend/mandate outcome Z if any communications violate the PP"

I can't see a judge disliking a solution of "let's get a custody coordinator and have the CC review communications weekly, both between parents and between parents and kids, to make sure we're all following the plan and being respectful -- I propose these 3 CC's and Mom can select one of them by 9pm on Day/Date; if Dad doesn't get that email from Mom by that time, he will choose. CC appointments will be weekly over Zoom with Dad, Mom, and CC only, and Dad will pay XX% and Mom will pay YY" (or whatever verbiage works best).

I think I get your vibe that you're in this "now or never" position where you don't want to come across as "well, I'm okay with disparaging texts, because I didn't do anything when I found out" -- you want to move on it now both for that reason and to protect and heal your kids. Coming out strong with a problem-solving proposal may put Mom on the back heel of "having to" argue why a CC to review comms isn't needed. "All my texts have been factual and respectful" -- then your L will be able to tell you how you leverage that. She'll either have to argue against a comms review or argue that her comms have followed the PP.

Going back to your "but isn't it... fussy" question, I think that, like LnL said, if you walk in with multiple problem-solving solutions to implement right now, then no, it isn't fussy -- you want to be one and done, you aren't looking for a repeat audience.

[livednlearned]

I'm not sure my judge would appreciate showing up with an expensive expert at this juncture, but it could be helpful to begin to map out resources in case it gets to that point.

I was thinking more in terms of consulting with Childress to see what he thinks of strategy, not necessarily to have him testify in court. He may see things you don't, although some stuff seems to be very specific to judges and what they care about. Mine was a Southern gentlemen who really really took offense to name-calling. Some judges are so technical it defies common sense. Mine shot from the hip and was more intuitive.

How common is filing a motion of contempt for disparagement?  Feels a bit... fussy?

 

I agree. Although you may need to start issuing parking tickets to demonstrate the pattern. Judges are considered the supreme witness in your case, so you have to give them things to witness. When my judge was directly on the receiving end of bizarre stonewalling behaviors from n/BPDx, it made it easier for him to get the picture.

If your disparagement clause is more than boilerplate and you're in a county in which disparagement has teeth, that might make a difference.

This might be interesting to read through: https://aaml.org/wp-content/uploads/MAT203.pdf

To enforce the non-disparagement clause a party generally has three options. A party can ask the court to modify the parenting plan, and reference to the court the change of circumstances that occurred since the last hearing. Alternatively, a motion to modify can be filed, asking the court to change certain terms in the non-disparagement clause. Finally, one has the option of filing a motion for contempt in which the injured party asks the court to punish the other party for not abiding by the non-disparagement clause and to compel future good behavior.

What would be the proposed solution in this case (I like the idea about parenting class, custody coordinator, and/or custody evaluator - which X would HATE).

 

The tricky thing is your D15's age. If she is indeed alienated, it would be hard to compel her to spend more time with you, even if there's a court order saying so. But it's possible you could compel sessions with only you and D15.

Maybe a proposed solution would include the following: You pick the T, or work with her current T, and protect that relationship -- mom cannot "fire" the T. And mom only communicates with T when you are present. If she communicates by email, T will share all emails, etc. I would also add something about how the T cannot be subpoenaed. This demonstrates that this is a therapeutic relationship and not part of a legal strategy to further expose mom (tossing that in there, since the Ts that work in forensic psychology give me pause), and also protect D15, since mom would be likely to say "careful what you say in there."

A consequence for non-compliance might be: Efforts to sabotage therapy or discourage D15 from spending time with dad will be grounds for a custody evaluation so third-party professionals can reassess what is in the best interests of the children.

Also, by recommending things, sometimes it's just to demonstrate that the other part can't comply. If you rack up 3 parking tickets, then the judge would be more likely to see that this isn't "fussy." But like you say, it depends on how your ex responds.

If she came into court and said, "Your honor, I did these things and I'm so sorry. Let me take this opportunity to apologize to EyesUp and mend my ways" you would probably get nothing, although we both know that won't happen.

She's more likely to dig in her heels and say, "He's an @ssh0l3 so I get to say that. Also, here's a bunch of other things he does I forgot to tell my L. I don't have proof but I know they happened because a Tarot card reader told me."

I don't have experience dealing with disparagement clauses in court so not sure I can be helpful. To be honest, it never occurred to me to focus on disparagement, although like you, there was evidence. We did mention that n/BPDx was contacting my employer, my H's employer (then BF), and law enforcement where my parents lived alleging they were alcoholics. Weird stuff. So it was in disparagement territory but we didn't reference the clause. It was more to communicate to the judge that we could no co-parent together and sole legal custody was necessary.

n/BPDx's response was that he could write these things because they were true. He could call me a c*nt because I was. He could call me b!tch, @ssh0l3, etc. because I was.

You can imagine that didn't go over well. There wasn't anything the judge could really do, but he got to witness someone who could not see how his treatment of me was harmful to the healthy parenting of our child. And this was years into coparenting when most parents cool off and stop trying to wind up their ex.

I hope that makes sense. Hopefully just dumping things out there gives you something to work with and build on with your attorney.

[EyesUp]

@Kells - Good point re: focusing on legal expectations. I'll investigate how to best frame this complaint...   In regard to proposing a solution.  X previously rejected the idea of a parenting coordinator, proposed by my atty as we negotiated the D, on the basis of cost. Might be worth noting that in my state, a PC cannot be ordered.

My feeling is that a CE might be a more productive way to get her attention, because she may be ordered to pay for it ($$$ gets her attention, whether we have to split it or not). Although inviting any court ordered personnel into my kids' lives feels like inviting disruption and conflict - it does feel like it's getting to the point where some of this activity is unavoidable.

Placing guardrails on comms sounds good in theory. Probably naive, but I'm holding on to the idea that demonstrating trust with D15 might be more important than installing monitor SW...  I believe that X already tells D15 "you have to go to dad's because the judge ordered it" (vs. because we agreed to it), so I'm not any better if I take action that leads to legitimate court orders that D15 finds distressing...  Not sure she can see the difference at this point.

That said, maybe something like Life360 could be used, although not sure what the legal criteria would be for this, and again I'm sure this would simply drive a lot of the behavior further underground because X and D15 would both be aware of it. 

FWIW, the D agreement specified that the parties shall use OFW or whatever other tools they agree upon. Of course, less than a year after D, X unilaterally declared that she would no longer use OFW - "it's a tool used by manipulative and abusive men to control their ex wives" (it's in writing)...   perhaps the agreement could have been worded better to make OFW a non-negotiable requirement.  Reconciling quarterly expenses is now a fully manual process, and X doesn't provide receipts - in fact, she never loaded receipts to OFW in the first place.

@LnL, thanks for the link.  I'm concerned about D15, but also about D12 and D8 to follow. There has always been a higher attachment between X and D15, even prior to D.  I know that if D15 "votes with her feet" the others will naturally feel conflicted and likely follow - D15 can be quite assertive with her younger sisters...

In regard to consequences, I think the major one will be loss of shared decision making. i.e., the motion would be to seek temp orders to award primary parent status to me, and the consequence of further bad behavior would be to make the change permanent and possibly to seek majority parenting time as well. The status aspect of this would likely be rage inducing to X - I anticipate unhinged social media posts about how the family court system favors dads and hates moms!

I've already heard the "because it's true" excuse/explanation - in writing!  "I'm not going to protect you or lie to our children!" - Accusations are confessions, etc.

The bad news is that D15 was ice cold at camp pickup today. The good news is that she pleasantly texted later to ask for help with uploading some digital pictures from camp. This is fairly consistent with recent behavior - she's pleasant enough when she wants or needs something from me (usually $). Well, not sure that's actually good news...  but it is an indication that alienation is not 100% hardened yet.

[ForeverDad]

I too filed a few "parking tickets" (contempt motions).  I was so surprised that what seemed clear to me got sidelined by my ex or the court used it's own version of common sense.

Example 1:  I filed for some issue.  Well, my cell phone had died the Friday before our court hearing because of dampness on a canoe outing, so I left a greeting on the cell phone to call my house number instead until I got it replaced on Wednesday, the day before my hearing.  Ex left angry messages she wanted to speak to her son yet never called the house phone.

I recall back in 2009 when the magistrate said, "No time is left for this hearing but I'll fix ex's complaint now {she couldn't reach son during prior weekend, my cell had died but my house phone worked fine}.  Phone calls must occur every 8:00-8:30 pm."  Well, that short circuited many group activities, movies at theaters, games at parks, etc. We lived with that for 4 years until another magistrate decided that was too easy to use as a control weapon.

Example 2:  I filed that ex had skipped town with son without any vacation notice.  They were states away before I found out.  Well, the final decree had just been issued.  Court ruled against me stating the order was too new to allow compliance by advance notice?  But ex hadn't given me any notice.  Court also ignored that she didn't comply with the ended divorce temp order, presumably court policy is to ignore any ended order?  Two orders without compliance yet I had not basis to complain?

The next time I filed for custody and majority time in a Change of Circumstances petition.  It was granted to move forward and a Guardian ad Litem (GAL - child's lawyer) was chosen.  The GAL, as every other professional, wanted a deal (gain some, lose some) so I only got legal custody.

However, ex's entitlement continued and one favored game was to mess with exchanges.  So back to court again, this time with a list of tardies, mostly on ex's time, my recordings of ex's games with exchanges, and school teachers to testify what they experienced.  The decision was lengthy, stated a half dozen times ex was disparaging me in child's presence, and granting me majority time during the school year.  Note the "in child's presence" which made the matter more actionable.  (Apparently "disparagement" was a huge trigger matter for court, just as "harassment" seems to be.)  Oh, another point in the decision was that ex needed counseling but since magistrate didn't know ex's ability to pay then the counseling wasn't ordered.

Despite my ex initially facing a Threat of DV charge when we separated, I started out with alternate weekends during the two year divorce, I walked out with equal time based on Custody Evaluator's report recommendation, two years later I got legal custody and another few years later I got majority time during the school year.

One thing I learned is that court and those associated with the court don't like big changes, they prefer minor change until they reach "what works".  For me, it took 8 years in and out of court.  My advice to those separating is to find a proactive and experienced lawyer and seek the best (or least bad) temp order from the start.  It will save you some headaches and heartaches.  I recall my lawyer telling me at my quickie temp order hearing, "Shh, we'll fix it later."  Well, sure it got fixed... two years later in the final decree!