Was suggested I return, so here I be.

[OKrunch]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=355982.0

link above to latest on the detaching board.
Have been seeing each other again, albeit infrequently.

Hope you have all been well

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[OKrunch]

So basically, we chat occasionally, in the past month we've hung out and been intimate twice, but both times have been impulsive and at night.
She doesn't talk to me like she used to. Her level of interest is clearly not what it once was.

It feels like I'm being used as a booty call, or just filler until she is either ready for more, or until she meets someone she's more interested in.
I feel like old shoes, comfy and reliable, but old and not exciting.
She doesn't reminisce about our actual relationship at all. It doesn't feel like she actually misses me.


For right now I'm backing off a bit until she reaches out to me. I've considered writing her and asking for clarification and direction but I feel that would just push her away right now.

[once removed]

So basically, we chat occasionally, in the past month we've hung out and been intimate twice, but both times have been impulsive and at night.

This is an upward trajectory from where things were, yes?

I feel like old shoes, comfy and reliable, but old and not

To some extent, a limited extent, you are.

The prospect of rebuilding a relationship that ended can have its pull, but its daunting. Theres baggage. Youve heard the advice before, about reaching out to an ex, "it ended for a reason".

And yet, she's not in another relationship, and your relationship, for whatever state its in, has progressed from where it was, to more than it predictably would have been.

In terms of reconnecting, these are pretty good cards to draw. But there is more work to be done.

Right now, you don't trust her. You feel used. You're unsure of what your status is or where this is heading. All natural things to feel.

The thing to know is that she doesn't trust you either, and the two of you have competing ideas of what trust looks like or how to establish/rebuild it. It's important to see this through her eyes; not to agree with how she sees it, but to get where she's coming from.

There is a great deal of push/pull over these competing ideas. You want commitment she's not prepared to make. When you push for that, she pulls away. She wants a different approach from you, in order to establish trust. When she pushes for that, you pull away.

You can both skate on that dynamic for quite a while. Getting right up to the line, but neither prepared to commit. Eventually, that dynamic will fizzle out.

In essence, the two of you are at a stalemate. The only thing that will make this work is if one of you commits to doing something different and changes the dynamic. That's unlikely to be her, for a variety of reasons. The change that brings this home, is more than likely going to have to come from you.

As I said before, to make this happen really involves playing the long game. Necessarily, that requires seeing this through her eyes. She likes you! She wants you! But that emotional connection and that trust are not there. She told people she couldn't get back with you. Understand, it takes an enormous amount of change for someone to go back on that.

Granted, you have been playing the long game. And to some extent you've changed your approach, and its been working. But still, there is a great deal of distrust and push pull going on.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I think I've overplayed my hand, and I need to back off to balance things out." A confident and secure man knows when to do that. It works.

Make sure what you aren't doing is pulling away because she's not committing enough. It would be far more prudent to say this isn't moving at the pace i hoped it would and I don't have the patience for it (which is valid!) so im reluctantly moving on. If insecurity drives the move, she will sense that, and she will mirror it, and the two of you will just dance in distrust until the bottom falls put.

I'm not telling you to just throw your heart on the line to get stepped on. That wouldn't be smart, or attractive. It's possible that she has no idea what she wants, or even doesn't want this, can't help herself, and she's going to make a mess of things.

The read that I get is that you're in the drivers seat a lot more than you think, and the more comfortably you play things, the more comfortable she will be.

That's my take on it, anyway.

[OKrunch]

I really appreciate the insight, that makes a lot of sense.

She seems to back off when I flirt with her right now, so I'm just going to leave that alone.

I haven't messaged her at all today, I'm just giving it a few days to see if she takes some initiative.

[OKrunch]

In essence, the two of you are at a stalemate. The only thing that will make this work is if one of you commits to doing something different and changes the dynamic. That's unlikely to be her, for a variety of reasons. The change that brings this home, is more than likely going to have to come from you.

As I said before, to make this happen really involves playing the long game. Necessarily, that requires seeing this through her eyes. She likes you! She wants you! But that emotional connection and that trust are not there. She told people she couldn't get back with you. Understand, it takes an enormous amount of change for someone to go back on that.

Granted, you have been playing the long game. And to some extent you've changed your approach, and its been working. But still, there is a great deal of distrust and push pull going on.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I think I've overplayed my hand, and I need to back off to balance things out." A confident and secure man knows when to do that. It works.

Make sure what you aren't doing is pulling away because she's not committing enough. It would be far more prudent to say this isn't moving at the pace i hoped it would and I don't have the patience for it (which is valid!) so im reluctantly moving on. If insecurity drives the move, she will sense that, and she will mirror it, and the two of you will just dance in distrust until the bottom falls put.

Once,

Can you elaborate on this bit?

Im torn between "trying, and having it come off as needy, and shooting myself in the foot" VS. "Not trying enough and things just fade and die"

Im lost as to what I could be doing here that would be best.
I feel like she isnt emotionally interested, and that if something new came along, I would be left behind yet again.

[once removed]

Im torn between "trying, and having it come off as needy, and shooting myself in the foot" VS. "Not trying enough and things just fade and die"

well, in a lot of your posts, it seemed like you would get frustrated, and, more or less, either say screw her, or tell her if we arent getting back together, see ya later.

those wont work (not that it isnt a valid option to walk away, its just better to mean it when you do). she balks at any pressure.

but that isnt to say that if you think youre overdoing it, or coming off needy, that you shouldnt give some space. it seems to me like you get the difference. a while back, stopping the bleeding/conflict was the biggest issue.

specifically as it applies to "how much you should do", and "do enough vs do too little", i think youre doing enough. she knows how you feel. and not only that, but shes continuing the relationship such as it is, knowing that. the only thing id be worried about is pushing. whether its pushing for clarity, or pushing for time (i dont think theres anything wrong with seeing if she wants to spend time, but who is the one initiating that, for the most part? you or her or both?).

Im lost as to what I could be doing here that would be best.
I feel like she isnt emotionally interested, and that if something new came along, I would be left behind yet again.

you know her best, so i dont want to mislead, but i have a little bit different impression. she strikes me as more guarded than not emotionally interested. perhaps "not emotionally invested". which makes sense at this stage, and is not necessarily a bad place to be (just one that takes a lot of patience).

in other words, i wouldnt expect her to be doing any active pursuing, at least in terms of a committed relationship. if things heat up, i might expect her to pull back a little, just to catch her breath. she was very committed to the breakup. i think even if things are going well, and change is demonstrable, it would still be prudent for someone who had been committed to a breakup to approach it slowly and cautiously.

but lets assume youre right. first, there arent any guarantees here, no matter how well things go. thats always true. but second, attracting her is obviously a big part of the equation here.

and the opportunities and ways to do that are somewhat limited and tricky, though far from nonexistent. you have to spend time together in order to do that. you have to have opportunities come up where shed be expecting something to happen, and then shes surprised when something else happens. for example, if she were to pull back, and shes expecting you to push, and you "play it cool" instead, that would both take her by surprise, and be attractive. thats just one example.

attracting her (or reattracting her) by and large means letting her see the cool, happy go lucky guy she fell for in the first place. it also means catching her off guard (pleasantly) when the opportunity presents itself. it also means not pushing for either commitment or time.

by and large, i think if youre doing those things, youre playing your best hand. it will take time. this is and always has been a long game. it seems to me things have progressed pretty substantially, but i dont think thats enough in that amount of time to eliminate all of the baggage and mistrust. its got to be built on, consistently, over time. she has to take for granted that all of the conflict in the old relationship is way past dead.

beyond that, id just be doing as much as youre doing as i can. get together when you can (my impression is that shes actually initiated most of the hanging out, correct me if im wrong about that). if sex is on the table and its not complicating things or making them worse, go for it. making the most out of what exists right now, and following her lead on that.

Im lost as to what I could be doing here that would be best.

can you say a bit more about what happens when the two of you get together? and also why you think shes not emotionally interested? it might help shed some light on other steps you can take.

[OKrunch]

can you say a bit more about what happens when the two of you get together? and also why you think shes not emotionally interested? it might help shed some light on other steps you can take.

In the past few months, we've only hung out a few times. All of those were after 9pm. She initiated both recent hangouts, but it was pretty clear the first time it was just to hook up. The second time that was quite literally expressed.

She doesn't reach out to me about normal stuff, Although she has initated both recent hangouts, I usually have to initate any conversation.
She just doesn't put the effort in anymore to joking, communicating etc.
Our conversations are a lot less substatial and I do believe it is because she doesnt want to get emotionally invested, and she wants to avoid me getting to attached (pUre guesswork there)

When we hang out, we talk and laugh just fine, then eventually hook up.
I have hinted at wanting to do things like Hike, go out to dinner, etc. She never says No to these things, but kind od brushes them aside, doesnt aknowladge them and moves on with the conversation.

We both have the same custody schedule. So this coming weekend is another weekend we could possibly see eachother.
Im starting to feel like it wont happen this week, even though it has the past two weekends weve been free.

[once removed]

okay.

looking at the big picture, this is about where i would bet things would be.

She doesn't reach out to me about normal stuff, Although she has initated both recent hangouts, I usually have to initate any conversation.
She just doesn't put the effort in anymore to joking, communicating etc.
Our conversations are a lot less substatial and I do believe it is because she doesnt want to get emotionally invested, and she wants to avoid me getting to attached (pUre guesswork there)

that sounds about right to me.

shes not getting too deep, or making what could be construed as efforts to reconcile the relationship, or possibly lead you on.

but the relationship is warm, there is attraction, and she is initiating getting together, as well as sex.

I have hinted at wanting to do things like Hike, go out to dinner, etc. She never says No to these things, but kind od brushes them aside, doesnt aknowladge them and moves on with the conversation.

this makes sense too.

she could say a hard no, she could say stop asking, she could say again that the two of you will never get back together, she could shut it all down hard. she isnt doing any of that.

so shes either afraid to say no to you (i dont get that impression. if she were, i dont think shed be open to any of this) or shes unsure/not ready. it might be worth continuing to throw these ideas out there as long as it isnt pushy; she may get to yes, but you could also drop shooting for further plans if you get the feeling its not accomplishing anything.

honestly man, my reading of all of this is that youre in about the best position i would hope to be in the circumstances, that theres definitely potential (not a guarantee) for more, and that there has been substantial progress. it probably doesnt feel like much, and it probably feels like its taken an eternity, but frankly, that is often what the long game is. a long slog that requires a whole lot of patience, often a lot of confusion and vulnerability. i dont see any signs that give me pause or warning.

generally speaking, all you really have to do is keep working toward and being that best version of yourself, using whatever opportunity you get to create attraction, and just keeping emotional cool (at least in front of her. when things get tough this is always a great place to either vent about it, and/or get perspective on it, which can be hard to do in this situation). on top of that, though, i would seriously recommend learning and practicing the tools taught on this board as much as possible. it doesnt seem like theres much opportunity to use them at the moment, but they will be invaluable to you when and if things progress further, and theyll be invaluable to you regardless. its something you can be investing in, even when things seem to be going slowly.

what do you think?

[OKrunch]

Contact has been spuratic, but she has always ended up responding or reaching out, sometimes it takes a day or two.

She has been busy on her end, with vet appointments and so on.
She said to me the other day after not replying for 2 days "Sorry for the delayed response. Ive sucked at human interaction lately"

I guess i am just being discouraged a bit by the lack of excitement on her end.
We used to talk at length about history, folklore, etc. many mutally interested topics.
That HAS happened, but its very sparce.

Same can be said about "Attraction" or desire.
We've hooked up, but she doesnt flirt with me like she used to.
Doesn't get EXCITED about things.

She hadnt responded at all really to my recent flirtatious attempts, but doesnt shut them down, and we DO still occasionally hookup. Im trying to rebuild all the attraction. Time was, I was as irresistable to her as she is to me.
Just taking it slow, easy, and not building any hopes and expectations.
Not putting my eggs all in the same basket.

Summer is chaotic, and is ending.
We spent a lot of time yesterday talking about the dogs, which was nice. She sent an adorable photo of "our" (Her) youngest dog.
I miss the dogs terribly.

[once removed]

I guess i am just being discouraged a bit by the lack of excitement on her end.

i think its natural to be. "the long game" is usually frustrating and discouraging. it can be very hard to gauge if youre making any "progress", and when thats the goal, and all you really wanta do, its even more frustrating because you dont know what more you can do, but youre still trying to think. there isnt much feedback or reward. its exhausting.

it doesnt mean it isnt working, or that nothing is happening, though. and that can be hard to see when youre in it.

We used to talk at length about history, folklore, etc. many mutally interested topics.
That HAS happened, but its very sparce.

Same can be said about "Attraction" or desire.
We've hooked up, but she doesnt flirt with me like she used to.
Doesn't get EXCITED about things.

while id be disappointed, i dont think thats entirely surprising at this stage, for several reasons.

remember, you are operating in two different headspaces.

your goal is to be in a relationship with her. she is wary about that idea. she, months ago, said it would never happen. ive said it before, but it bears repeating, it takes a person a LOT to go back on that kind of thing. obviously, i think in her mind she has clearly reconsidered that, but it doesnt mean shes ready to leap into it. also, even if she has consciously reconsidered it, she wouldnt want to lead you on if she werent sure.

regardless, shes simply not preoccupied with it in the same way you would be. she knows how you feel. there isnt the same sense of urgency about it for her that you might feel. thats not a bad thing, either. its just easy, when youre in this position, to read the other persons every move as indicating either interest or disinterest, when theyre just not reading and watching us or themselves the same way.

it could also be that the old chemistry is dead. try thinking in terms of the old relationship being dead, and trying to build a very different one. it may mean connecting differently, or over different things. while you still have your history in common, time has passed, and youre not exactly the same people anymore

in other words, that she is not responding in the way that she used to, is not necessarily a bad sign. she doesnt want the old relationship back, it ended for a reason. part of building attraction is making things "new and exciting". a lot of people just try to rekindle what died.

She said to me the other day after not replying for 2 days "Sorry for the delayed response. Ive sucked at human interaction lately"

this also sounds like a big part of it, at least recently. she sounds like shes running a bit ragged.

knowing me, if i were in that position, id probably be worried about fading into the background with that going on, but it doesnt seem to be that way; shes making you somewhat of a priority.

She hadnt responded at all really to my recent flirtatious attempts, but doesnt shut them down, and we DO still occasionally hookup.

at the end of the day, this is your greatest indicator. how many months ago was it that she said youd never get back together? as ive said, and want to stress, if she wanted to, she could shut things down, and hard, and generally speaking, a woman that has made up her mind about such a thing absolutely would. thats not to say shes gone from "never" to "definitely", but it is a significant change.

question is whether to keep doing it, or to dial it back. youre in the best position to gauge that.

Summer is chaotic, and is ending.

things do change as summer ends! right now, from my position, the possibility of reconciling looks better than not. since there are no guarantees, thats pretty much what one has to hope for. it just looks to me like the slow, frustrating, but upward trajectory of "better than not".

[Pook075]

Hey buddy, it's good to see you're still hanging in there despite everything going on.

Let me make this super simple- what do you want right now?  If an occasional booty call is okay, then keep on keeping on.  If you still want more from the relationship, then you have to decide if it's heading in the right direction OR bringing you down by stirring up past memories.  Either way though, this is ultimately about (1) what you want and (2) what she's willing to give.

As others mentioned, if you're in this for the long game thinking that it's going to lead back to an incredible love story, you already know that the odds are highly against that ever happening.  You can't read into this and ask what this interaction or that interaction means...it simply means that she's testing the waters with you and has no idea what she actually wants.  Maybe she'll never know, which is common in these situations.

So once again, forget about what she wants or what her true intentions are- what do you want right now?  That's what you have to do for now, and I really hope that it doesn't end up breaking your heart all over again.

I'm praying for you buddy, you've been on my mind lately and I hoped that you'd make a post.

[OKrunch]

She seems concerend with things getting too involved.
After 2 days of silence (our convo from Monday dropped off a cliff randomly and she stopped talking so i matched that), i just sent a "Hey, Is everything ok?"
After a few hours she responded back
"Hi"
"Yes, definitley"
"Old home day is Sat and DAUGHTERs birthday is tommorow, Ive been busy"
"You promised me a month ago that it wasnt going to get like it did if i cam up to hang out that day"

I replied
"yea im excited for her birthday, what are you doing for it?

It's not, I'm just making sure things are good on your end, no other concerns beyond that for me"

Which was kind of a snippy response, and one that serves to "remind me of the scenario"
Honestly felt kinda like it was a harsh response if i am being honest. Felt like I was being reminded of my place.

Im going away on vacation next week and will be out of cell service for a lot of it.

[OKrunch]

We are actually chatting quite a bit right now. She sent me a picture of Her Daughter which she has not done in quite a while. She always puts a negative spin on everything. I said I wished I could do more for DAUGHTERs birthday and she said, " I understand. It's hard to leave the kids. I felt the same on Christmas and MY SON's birthday" and when I said that DAUGHTER is growing up very fast she said " she is the very definition of a young woman now. It's been hard to accept" I'm being very positive, she must be in a crappy mood. I don't know why everything needs a negative spin. Also she brings up reminders of our turmoil. In subtle ways like her mentioning leaving the kids just now. A few weeks ago when I was hanging out at her house, she mentioned that the new neighbors yell and scream a lot. She said "they're the new us, they might even be louder than we were haha" it's like she puts these reminders in to keep distance
 I know she has had a lot going on lately, Old Home Day is a big deal, and that pops off this weekend. Today is DAUGHTERS B-Day. The comment she made yesterday irritated me. Like i said it felt like she was putting me in my place. I thought about it afterward, and i think when i asked "Is everything Ok?" She heard "Is everything WITH US ok?" I was only asking about her, not us. However her response tells me she doesn't want me to "Be in love with her" right now or something. Maybe she just doesn't want me getting clingy, which makes sense given what she said. She acts sometimes like our past didnt happen, good and bad. and she is hooking up with me but backs off any time i flirt. Very odd behavior. But yea, I am letting her do the heavy lifting, and moreover I am emotionally OK with that. Am I happy and elated? no. But it isnt crushing my life like it used to. She has priorities to decide on, and her behavior still varies from day to day. A few days ago i was getting long texts and photos of the dog. She is like an ever changing tide
Basically where I'm at, is that I'm not putting forth any emotional signals towards her at all. I have curtailed the amount and the content of what I reach out about. She messaged me earlier, asking me about [name] for once. I'm just going to continue to put myself first, pull back on the amount of contact. She's either going to realize that she actually misses me or she's going to realize she doesn't care and I won't hear from her. I have hinted towards wanting to do things more than just hooking up. I have mentioned going hiking, going out walking around Downtown and so on. I haven't directly asked, but she did not jump on any of those opportunities. I don't want to just be a sexual item and a source of verbal validation. I'm going to let my distance build attraction if there's anything left there to build.

[once removed]

this paints a much clearer picture.

She seems concerend with things getting too involved.

she is. you are seriously underestimating that.

it is at the forefront of her mind in every interaction you have.

Also she brings up reminders of our turmoil
...
it's like she puts these reminders in to keep distance

because that is how she views the relationship that you are hoping she will go back to.

youre responding to it in the same old way.

there isnt anything to suggest that the new relationship would be different, better, stronger, healthier. by and large, the things that were broken between the two of you still are.

Basically where I'm at, is that I'm not putting forth any emotional signals towards her at all. I have curtailed the amount and the content of what I reach out about.
...
I'm just going to continue to put myself first, pull back on the amount of contact. She's either going to realize that she actually misses me or she's going to realize she doesn't care and I won't hear from her. I have hinted towards wanting to do things more than just hooking up. I have mentioned going hiking, going out walking around Downtown and so on. I haven't directly asked, but she did not jump on any of those opportunities. I don't want to just be a sexual item and a source of verbal validation. I'm going to let my distance build attraction if there's anything left there to build.

you have said this many times. do you think that if you respond to what shes telling you by pulling away in just the right way, that this time, its going to improve the relationship?

most of us who arrive here are wanting for relationship skills. this is evidenced by the level of dysfunction we fell into, how we managed it, and that we partnered with someone who by definition is wanting for relationship skills.

the discovery of that can really be the trick to healthier, happier relationships in the future. relationship skills are something that one can improve.

i think that right now, the most important thing you could be doing, if you want to give this a real shot, is invest in building your relationship skills.

what is hurting you the most i think, when i read your words, is that youre not hearing her or reading her.

instead, you are mostly focused on your feelings of defensiveness, or disrespect. which is not to say they arent valid feelings, but that its hard to hear someone from that position.

it might help, when you feel that way, to step back from that, and see these things as not things to take personally or pull away from her, but as opportunities.

She sent me a picture of Her Daughter which she has not done in quite a while. She always puts a negative spin on everything. I said I wished I could do more for DAUGHTERs birthday and she said, " I understand. It's hard to leave the kids. I felt the same on Christmas and MY SON's birthday" and when I said that DAUGHTER is growing up very fast she said " she is the very definition of a young woman now. It's been hard to accept" I'm being very positive, she must be in a crappy mood. I don't know why everything needs a negative spin.

she sent a picture of her daughter. a sore spot between the two of you. a demonstrative opportunity to bond.

you got kinda needy on her and the way you talk about her, you couldnt be more put off by her.

see what i mean? there is a distance. she was being vulnerable here. you wanted her to match your energy.

The comment she made yesterday irritated me. Like i said it felt like she was putting me in my place

this seems like a consistent sore spot, or a trigger. one that i think you have gotten a great deal less reactive about (which has helped, a lot), but not a lot more mindful of.

think of BPD. you know how logic goes out the window when triggered? when emotions are so strong that they cant hear you and just keep shouting things and accusations?

triggers can do that, or a lesser version of it, to anyone. its much harder to look at things more objectively, or react in constructive ways.

she isnt putting you in your place. shes communicating to you the state of the relationship, and that she does not feel safe progressing it. no less, no more.

She said "they're the new us, they might even be louder than we were haha" it's like she puts these reminders in to keep distance

she isnt putting you in your place. shes giving you the opportunity to give her any reason to believe that a future relationship would be any different.

these are tests. im not saying shes sitting there consciously "testing you", but women (generally speaking) will often do these things. communicate an uneasy feeling, and gauge our reaction. when we mirror that with our own uneasiness, it doesnt build attraction.

She acts sometimes like our past didnt happen, good and bad. and she is hooking up with me but backs off any time i flirt. Very odd behavior.

only odd behavior when you read it through those personal lens. she does not see the situation as emotionally safe enough to have strings attached. its a clear communication, if you read, and hear her: shes into you, but she is not past the roadblocks.

I'm going to let my distance build attraction if there's anything left there to build.

you can do this, and the two of you can keep doing a push/pull dance, and that can probably go for some time, until it ends.

if you really want this to happen, build attraction by building yourself. build your skills.

the tools section is at the top of the page. i love the one on listening with empathy.

[OKrunch]

Thanks pook, my reply to you got placed in another thread, but I would like to continue the conversation here as I find that this is the place that I get the best and most constructive feedback.

For months now I have made myself available and been infinitely patient and understanding. She continues to keep me at arm's length, still has me blocked on social media because she is either hiding me from her world or hiding her world from me.

If she's going to reach out she's going to reach out, if she actually wants to see me and respects my opinion and wants to hear from me, she will reach out.

People talk about playing the push pull game, well when I was pursuing the situation I was only met with resistance. I'm not trying to play any push-pull games, but I deserve someone who wants me as much as I want them. I deserve someone who respects me as much as I respect them. She's been capable of this in the past, but perhaps it was deceptive. Who knows.

All I know is that when things are good they are great, but as I have said from the get-go, I'm not here to be a secondary option or a momentary relief. We were engaged. We are either doing this or we are not. And that decision lies in her Court

[Pook075]

Thanks pook, my reply to you got placed in another thread, but I would like to continue the conversation here as I find that this is the place that I get the best and most constructive feedback.

For months now I have made myself available and been infinitely patient and understanding. She continues to keep me at arm's length, still has me blocked on social media because she is either hiding me from her world or hiding her world from me.

If she's going to reach out she's going to reach out, if she actually wants to see me and respects my opinion and wants to hear from me, she will reach out.

People talk about playing the push pull game, well when I was pursuing the situation I was only met with resistance. I'm not trying to play any push-pull games, but I deserve someone who wants me as much as I want them. I deserve someone who respects me as much as I respect them. She's been capable of this in the past, but perhaps it was deceptive. Who knows.

All I know is that when things are good they are great, but as I have said from the get-go, I'm not here to be a secondary option or a momentary relief. We were engaged. We are either doing this or we are not. And that decision lies in her Court

Good to hear from you as well buddy.

I asked, "What do you want?"

You answered by telling me what she wants, what she's doing, etc.  We know that it's push/pull and it's terribly painful to be stuck in that place.

Then you told me what you deserve- and we all agree with that because we all deserve to get back what we put in our relationships.  We also know the position you're currently in because we've been there (or are there).  It stinks and it's certainly not fair.

So I'll ask again, what do you want?  That's the one decision you get to make here and nobody has any say in it, not ever her.  You can accept her behavior and continue to do what you're doing, or you can change the narrative and do something else.  Because this isn't about her...what she says, what she does, what she thinks...none of that matters.  What does matter is what you want and what you're willing to accept.

I know how much you've hurt throughout this saga and right now, you're like a car stuck in neutral at the top of the hill.  A good wind can push you forward or backwards down that hill, putting you in a better or worse situation depending on your perspective.  What we're telling you to do is stop letting your ex decide...push that car in the direction you want it to go, or pull the emergency brake and sit exactly where you are if that's what you prefer.

[OKrunch]

.

So I'll ask again, what do you want?  That's the one decision you get to make here and nobody has any say in it, not ever her.  You can accept her behavior and continue to do what you're doing, or you can change the narrative and do something else.  Because this isn't about her...what she says, what she does, what she thinks...none of that matters.  What does matter is what you want and what you're willing to accept.

What do I want?
Equality, I want to be wanted and sought out.
I want to fall in love again, right this time.
I want to be respected and desired.

I want a partner, not games.

[Pook075]

What do I want?
Equality, I want to be wanted and sought out.
I want to fall in love again, right this time.
I want to be respected and desired.

I want a partner, not games.

Okay, great start.  You want to be loved, respected, desired, and wanted.  That's a very fair expectation in any relationship.

Can your ex give that to you today?  It's not a complicated question and only requires a "yes" or "no" answer.

My friend, you have two very difficult options here. 

Option 1, you wait this out and keep riding the waves.  Maybe it has the fairytale ending, maybe not.  The odds are really against you in this situation though because the only thing that can "fix" the relationship is your ex getting into therapy and wanting to make real change. 

I know she's done that to some degree and made progress, but will she ever be able to fully trust you again?  That's just not something you can control.  It's not fair at all but it is what it is- BPD sucks. 

Option 2, you stop waiting this out and take control.  You give new love another chance and see where it takes you.  If you see your ex from time to time, so be it, that's your choice because you're in control.  If the old relationship somehow repairs itself over time, then great, but you're not going to wait on it any longer and you're going to stop throwing energy in that direction.

Personally, I chose option 2 and it actually brought my wife and I closer because it took relationship out of the equation.  I had to make that conscious decision to move on though so my ex and I could both heal.  As long as you're waiting though and she knows your expectations, it's going to keep her at arm's length and cautious.

Buddy, there's a verse in the Bible, 1st Corinthians 7:15.  It says that if an unbeliever departs, let them depart.  A brother or sister is not in bondage in such cases because God hath called us to peace.

I know you're not religious, but this verse is what I leaned on to move forward because it hit me so hard.  I can't change my wife or her intentions, and I'm not expected to wait through her chaos begging for a second chance.  I had to let her go and move on with my life, even though I didn't want to.  That's what ultimately healed me though and brought peace back into my life.

I hope that helps brother, I'm here for you whenever you need me.

[once removed]

I deserve someone who...

interesting choice of words.

can we deserve our way into a healthy relationship? or deserve our way into one at all?

in my experience, and as a golden rule of psychology, if we want a quality partner, we have to be one, or become one.

remember, respect is earned, not deserved. so are quality relationships.

so, if you deserve that with her, then ask yourself why it isnt happening.

if you deserve better than her, then ask yourself what youre doing, because your words and actions are significantly at odds.

I deserve someone who wants me as much as I want them. I deserve someone who respects me as much as I respect them. She's been capable of this in the past, but perhaps it was deceptive. Who knows.

there are two major problems with this. the first is that she professes, consistently, not to want this. its your goal, not hers. it isnt as though youre both working toward the same thing, and shes just being inconsistent about it. she actively doesnt want things to go further than they have.

the second is not that you deserve these things, you expect them. you expect those things, but youre still doing the same old things trying to get them, and getting mad at her and withdrawing when she doesnt give them. that is not a way to create attraction, just more instability, dysfunction, and resentment. youre doing this in subtle ways and big ones. it is telegraphing to her that nothing has changed, or will change.

For months now I have made myself available and been infinitely patient and understanding. She continues to keep me at arm's length, still has me blocked on social media because she is either hiding me from her world or hiding her world from me.

if this is your narrative, it illustrates the gap between the two of you, and how far away you are from understanding where shes coming from.

youre talking about a person who has said you will never be together again, who has just the other day reiterated this, and clearly told you this relationship as it stands will not progress. who has told you that she sees the two of you as a parody of a highly dysfunctional couple.

you are in the position, if you want her back, of trying to change her mind. you seem to think that either your charms, or withdrawing, will accomplish that. it will not. it will only convince her its the right decision.

it is clear to me and anyone reading that she has some level of feelings for you, has attraction to you, and generally likes your company (which is a position people on this board would kill for). but for her, it ends there. the idea of reconciling, to her, isnt a safe one. while shes stopped saying "NEVER EVER EVER", shes still saying a hard "no".

the difference between "NEVER EVER EVER" and "still no" is either an inch, or a mile, depending on how you play it. right now, youre not taking it as an honest assessment of where she is (you seem to interpret it as moodiness, or game playing, or "putting you in your place"), and what, if anything, might move her from "still no" to "i can see this happening", youre just taking it personally.

withdrawing only works when the other person wants the same thing that we do, but maybe weve been over pursuing. even then, it works because a person has thick enough skin to say "what im doing isnt helping, but hurting", and the presence of mind to change their actions. thats confident, sexy, and attractive. its mature. its emotionally safe. withdrawing as a means of trying to win respect, make someone miss you, or make someone pursue you is none of those things.

and when youre doing it to someone that doesnt want the same thing? its a little bit like these 112 degree days in texas. the fact that i continue to go outside doesnt mean i want them, and taking them away from me is not going to make me miss them.

as things are, she is not interested in reconciliation. shes interested in spending some time with you, no strings attached.

that essentially gives you three options: 1. keep doing what youre doing 2. write it off and hang it up 3. do something radically different.

ready for door number three?

[OKrunch]

This all makes a lot of sense, but I am at a loss as to what radically different is?

We broke up, and i heard "NEVER AGAIN" before in the past, and we ended up living together and engaged.
Then thigs dissolved again. Engulfment is totally a thing with her, and although her attraction has been re-ignited, her feelings clearly have not been. I also believe the social stigma of getting back together a third time is playing hard on this situation.

I have shown i can handle space, and that im not overdoing things.
We have the connection you all talk about.

So im quite at a loss as to what other changes I am looking down the barrel of here.

Therapy taught me a lot about what flaws I have, and how to better manage them. I believe I am doing and have done that well.
So in the meantime I will try and figure out what "Radically different" for me looks like, and what else I need to be better at.

This is one of the first times in all this journey I feel totally at a loss as to what the next step is.

[OKrunch]

 I honestly think public perception plays a lot into it. I think during our second break up she told a lot of people in her life that we were completely Splitsville and was never going to happen again. Probably bad-mouth me a bit to people like her best friend and her dad. And then on top of that I think she has absolutely no problem or difficulty reminding herself of the reasons our relationship didn't work to her perception. I'm still quite convinced that engulfment plays a huge role with her. The timing of decline after engagment was quite telling. Upon thinking of it, its only really when I do pull away. The first reunion we had was largely part to the fact that she thought I was moving Away, and every time she has been the one to reach out, it has been after a period of silence from me. She "knows" ill always be around, and my behavior in the past has only served to rienforce that idea.
Im not saying I am going to go distant here in an attempt to cause any reaction, I much prefer to be in touch with her, which we have been, albeit lacking mutual enthusiasm or consistancy.

[once removed]

I am at a loss as to what radically different is?

did you see my response to your thread that was on Conflicted? ive moved it back into this thread, up above. it contains practical examples of instances where there was an opportunity to handle things differently, namely the moment where she sent a picture of her daughter, and the moments where she makes comments inserting distance, such as when she made that comment about some toxic couple being like yall.

the real point of those instances is to recognize your usual reactions, and begin to change them, not that you screwed up your chances; while in a situation where youre trying to reverse a breakup there can be little room for error, the chances here, for better are worse, remain about the same as they have, at least as i see it.

the impression i got was that when she makes those comments, to insert distance as you put it, its frustrating for you. and of course it is. youve got this hope, things are going okay, and then wham. but she can, whether consciously or not, feel your response to them.

so, just for an example, when she makes a comment about how "theyre just like we were", rather than getting thrown off by it, an upbeat and confident guy might laugh and say something like "yeah, the old me/us is embarrassing now".

im not saying literally say that (personalize it and use your own example that reflects the way you talk to each other), and im not saying "hey, just do that and she'll be yours!".

the point is that, like i said, youre in the position where youve got to change her mind. if you apply that one example more broadly, it means changing your reactions (a nearly universally attractive thing, because its new and exciting, its curious, and psychologically, it pushes a person to reconsider. ever notice how when someone breaks up with someone, then sees that person living their best life, it bugs them, makes them doubt their decision?), and in turn, changing her mind. think of those digs as tests. an opportunity to catch her off guard, rather than something to be discouraged by.

We broke up, and i heard "NEVER AGAIN" before in the past, and we ended up living together and engaged.
Then thigs dissolved again.

i can appreciate that its a very confusing situation to be in.

on one hand, very generally speaking, men dont always hear "no", and women arent always direct.

on top of that, throw in BPD traits, and things can get a lot more confusing. if i were advising her, id be saying a lot of the same things to her.

but i would suggest hearing her "no" for what it appears to be. not taking it for granted, or thinking it isnt serious, or thinking its moodiness, but also understanding it isnt the same as "NEVER AGAIN". shes sleeping with you. it doesnt mean she wants to be in a relationship, but it clearly doesnt mean she wants nothing to do with you.

it means its not going to progress unless something changes radically (and still no guarantee if it does).

I have shown i can handle space, and that im not overdoing things.

the number one thing youve done (and the first thing to do) was stop the bleeding. the two of you arent fighting. things (generally) are not being made worse. youre enjoying each others company. youre not lashing out at her, there have been no "goodbyes" between the two of you for some time. all of that created the space to be where you are now.

We have the connection you all talk about.

but what you had, and still by and large have, is the old connection. youre in the difficult task of preserving the best parts of that, to the extent you can, considering that connection dead, and creating a new and better one. that opportunity around her daughters picture was a good example. it probably would have helped in that moment to give her the space to talk, and just listen to her.

Engulfment is totally a thing with her,

now when you say engulfment, can you clarify what you mean there?

the fear of engulfment tends to manifest as the person with bpd doing everything they can to become who we want them to be, and then resenting themselves, and then resenting us, for "making them do it", and not seeing them for who they really are.

engulfment is often confused with, but not necessarily the same as, needing space. that can happen when we are needy or clingy or just plain over pursuing. i dont have a clear sense that this is a big problem, but you have suggested that either you have been, or she sees you that way. certainly, any of those things can be a turn off, and when it happens it goes a long way to recognize and dial back. or, if shes just kind of an independent type that needs a lot of space (or introverted like me, i need a lot), its certainly good to be mindful of her sensitivities, like anyone else.

if there has been a problem with neediness/clinginess/over pursuing, it helped me to learn a while back that a relationship with two emotionally needy people wont work. one, sure. but with two, its just a constant fight of trying to get those needs met, and never really hearing or recognizing each other. such is statistically usually the case in a partnership where bpd is involved.

Therapy taught me a lot about what flaws I have, and how to better manage them.

how is it going? are you still involved?

[once removed]

I honestly think public perception plays a lot into it. I think during our second break up she told a lot of people in her life that we were completely Splitsville and was never going to happen again. Probably bad-mouth me a bit to people like her best friend and her dad. And then on top of that I think she has absolutely no problem or difficulty reminding herself of the reasons our relationship didn't work to her perception.

there is all of that, for sure.

on top of that, there was that moment of violence, and, forgive me, i dont remember the details, but what she found out about her daughters therapy and its affects on her.

plus, old relationships are baggage/dead weight.

that is why i keep stressing the point that something radical needs to change, in order to change her mind. its not merely changing her mind. its changing her mind from all of that. its a very tall order. and yet, it certainly seems possible.

Upon thinking of it, its only really when I do pull away. The first reunion we had was largely part to the fact that she thought I was moving Away, and every time she has been the one to reach out, it has been after a period of silence from me. She "knows" ill always be around, and my behavior in the past has only served to rienforce that idea.

im touching on this because its a fine line. i can certainly believe all of that. withdrawing has certainly gotten me positive reactions before, too. i think men tend to be taught that it works (if you look at pick up artist tips, its near the top). under the right circumstances, and when its coming from a healthy place, it obviously helps to pull back. hell, under the wrong circumstances, it can work.

the question you have to ask is "is it working, and to what point?".

if all thats going to happen is the same as whats happening right now, probably nothing. youll spend months just testing the waters, eventually she shuts it down, you pull away, she comes back, repeat.

there isnt likely to be a way you can strategically withdraw enough and at the right time that its going to cause her to change her mind and want to enter into a relationship. its not really a strategy, or if it is, it will just see diminishing returns.

if somehow it worked like it did before, it wouldnt be a promising foundation to rebuild on.

you also have to look at the emotional safety and trust part of the equation. thats what is largely missing, a key ingredient in moving her from "no" to "i could see it" or "yes". withdrawing wont always hurt that, but it wont help it.

i think the point really is dont let withdrawing become pouting, and dont mistake it for a strategy. if you think youre over pursuing, then sure, of course, dial it back.

[OKrunch]

Id say an example of that recently was the "You said it wouldnt get like last time" comment she made recently. I even said it felt like a test of sorts.
While I mentioned here it felt like her "keeping distance", my response to it, or lackthereof is worth noting.

I simply said "It's not" and moved on, and she moved on as well and our conversation continued.

[OKrunch]

I just dont know how to proceed regarding contact.

Do i continue spuratic "check ins"? (Which HAVE resulted in some good communication lately, but makes me feel like nothing will change sometimes.) Am i providing emotional support and "letting her have her cake and eat it" by doing this?

Cool off, back off, quietly, and let her reach out (or not)? (runs risk of "fading away" or abandonment?)

OR

Have a conversation about what we are doing and/or working towards (Which could be an explosive result) High Risk / Reward?

I want her to want to see me beyond just meeting up at night to hook up occasionally.

[once removed]

Do i continue spuratic "check ins"? (Which HAVE resulted in some good communication lately, but makes me feel like nothing will change sometimes.)

I don't feel like I know enough to advise about this. When you say checkins, do you mean saying hey, trying to make plans, or both?

I don't see what it's hurting? You want to see her, be in touch, pursue her, court her. That ball is pretty much in your court. Unless you feel that its doing some sort of harm?

Cool off, back off, quietly, and let her reach out (or not)? (runs risk of "fading away" or abandonment?)

She has reached out some, yes? I think if you want to do less of it and see if she does more, it's not going to hurt anything, but its not going to make much difference either way. The best case scenario is you know something is still there. I think you already know that.

Have a conversation about what we are doing and/or working towards (Which could be an explosive result) High Risk / Reward?

In my experience, this fails more than 99% of the time if the goal is to achieve reconciliation.

All that will happen is she will feel backed into a corner, and she will tell you what she already has, except that it may be with more permanence. That sort of hail Mary is the sort of thing to do only when you are resigned to walking away, and you can't make yourself do so without a "never ever".

I want her to want to see me beyond just meeting up at night to hook up occasionally.

This may be possible, and it may not be. The only power you really have over that is to not be someone she can meet at night and hook up with. That's a perfectly valid position that you should consider. Is it something that's going against your values? Is it something that's hurting mentally? There are reasons to examine that and determine if its something you want to put a stop to.

If it's making you anxious, or you're worried about her "just" seeing you that way, or that it makes you look weak, I dont get that impression.

In other words, to me it's more a question of "is this healthy for both of you", vs "is this helping or hurting your chances of reconciliation".

[OKrunch]

By check Ins I meant me asking how she's doing, asking to make plans etc, yes.

It honestly feels like if I don't reach out, she won't either. I don't feel like I matter to her.
I'm just around to satisfy physical and emotional needs, WHEN she needs them . That's how it feels anyhow.

And yes, I'm still doing therapy . You had asked before.
Therapist thinks she's "back burnering" me again

[OKrunch]

Ok, so today, after a day of quiet, I messaged her and we were just chit chatting, and I made a mildly suggestive comment about "I'd rather be warm and in bed with you instead of this rain" and she replied "I'm not super comfortable talking about being in bed"

To which I replied "Can i ask for clarification on why? Just so I'm understanding you all the way. I'm not upset by the boundary I just want to understand it.
If you don't feel like explaining now that's fine too. "

She replied "Maybe another time. I'm driving and you should have fun with your friends. "

Me : "Ok, we're just waiting for a table.
I miss flirting with you, and you flirting back
 
Can we possibly hang out soon?"

Her: "lets talk about that later. I'm feeling confused and I'll just give confusing answers "

[Turkish]

You telegraphed a sexual innuendo, and when she communicated that she was uncomfortable with that, you kind of made another.

[OKrunch]

How did I make another?