Was suggested I return, so here I be.

[Depression = 72% of members]

How did I make another?

miss flirting with you, and you flirting back

She communicated her uncomfortableness, and you doubled down.

[Turkish]

How did I make another?

miss flirting with you, and you flirting back

She communicated her uncomfortableness, and you doubled down.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[OKrunch]

I don't really see that as doubling down.

[once removed]

the back and forth helps a lot. lets walk this through.

"I'd rather be warm and in bed with you instead of this rain" and she replied "I'm not super comfortable talking about being in bed"

at which point you make a mental note of that, and either artfully or awkwardly change the subject. but for gods sake, change the subject   

To which I replied "Can i ask for clarification on why? Just so I'm understanding you all the way. I'm not upset by the boundary I just want to understand it.
If you don't feel like explaining now that's fine too. "

no! theres no reason to ask for clarification on why!

and if she doesnt feel like explaining now thats fine too? 

She replied "Maybe another time. I'm driving and you should have fun with your friends. "

Me : "Ok, we're just waiting for a table.
I miss flirting with you, and you flirting back

please hear me when i say im the king of having done all of these things. man to man, i can put myself in that situation and have a pretty good idea for how you felt. i dont mean to bust your balls, but to help.

this is really needy stuff. if you step back and read that, you are repeatedly setting yourself up for rejection. its probably why you feel like youre striking out with her when youre trying to build attraction and/or flirt. shes not rejecting you; shes rejecting your approach.

this stuff makes her feel cornered. think about it from her perspective: she says she feels uncomfortable discussing something. asking her for clarification would make her feel as if she has to explain or justify it.

"and if shes not in a relationship, why should she?" is exactly what shed be thinking, because it implies you have a right to know, which in her mind you dont, which reminds me her of the potential downsides of a relationship, or the bad parts of the old one, which digs her heels in.

pushing her (anyone, not just her) almost guarantees being shut down even more firmly. its human nature. notably, she actually didnt do that. she just tried to change the subject/exit the conversation. dont chase when she does this. let her.

telling her that you miss flirting with her, and her flirting back (when shes exited the conversation), is chasing. think about it: what is she reasonably supposed to say to that? is she supposed to respond by flirting? what, at this point, is there to flirt with? is she supposed to explain her lack of flirting? apologize? it is saying (or what she hears) "please flirt with me".

if youre finding that flirting with her is getting this response consistently, i suspect its one of the bigger hurdles youre facing, and, the good news is, one of the easiest to nip in the bud.

timing is everything (if youre going to flirt with her, pick a time when the energy is there. dont force it). if she balks at it, take note, dont push, and retreat (this is the time to know when to pull back. when she responds with distance, discomfort, take note, quickly drop the approach).

make sense?

[OKrunch]

You and I have the best physical and intellectual connection in the world. It truly is second to none, and despite having some bad emotional history, I do still always feel like our good emotional history far far outweighs it.
It's been quite nice to be back in touch and doing some reconnecting, but I still can't shake the feeling of being a secret and being a second choice.Although Im not currently looking for anything labeled, or official or public, with you, if you are dating other people while still occasionally seeing me(which I don't know if you are, just clarifying my stance here) I'd rather not be involved, I wont be a backup choice. I understand if making anybody in your life aware that we are hanging out could be complicated, after the second break up that we had. I'm not asking to be public or anything like that. I don't even want to think or talk about a relationship right now, not yet.
I've been shut down when I tried to flirt with you like I always did in the past. I've been shut down when I tried to say things like that I missed you.
You have communicated fairly clearly to me that you don't seem to miss me, or crave me, or think about me very often.
If I'm going to be giving someone my physical affection, support, time and attention, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that person to give me some of those things in return.
If sex and occasional conversation is all you desire from me, please just communicate that.

I mean nothing but respectful communication here, and I wish you well.


------

I typed this out, have NOT sent it.
Probably won't, was just typing to get my feelings out.

[Pook075]

Hey friend, let me tell you why this is a really bad idea to send.

You and I have the best physical and intellectual connection in the world. It truly is second to none, and despite having some bad emotional history, I do still always feel like our good emotional history far far outweighs it.

Right now, she doesn't feel that way...because if she did, you'd be together.  So this statement will put her in a defensive mode and probably throw in some shame as well.  Why can't she feel that way?  She'd probably be thinking that it may be better to just not talk for awhile.

It's been quite nice to be back in touch and doing some reconnecting, but I still can't shake the feeling of being a secret and being a second choice.Although Im not currently looking for anything labeled, or official or public, with you, if you are dating other people while still occasionally seeing me(which I don't know if you are, just clarifying my stance here) I'd rather not be involved, I wont be a backup choice.

This is an ultimatum- choose me or walk away.  The part about labels doesn't really matter because you're telling her she must be exclusive with you (in whatever capacity) or be alone if she wants to communicate with you.  Very few people would respond favorably to that and she has no idea what she wants...so this pushes her away regardless.

I understand if making anybody in your life aware that we are hanging out could be complicated, after the second break up that we had. I'm not asking to be public or anything like that. I don't even want to think or talk about a relationship right now, not yet.

There's some empathy here, but it's following the ultimatum and will likely be skimmed over without much thought.  She doesn't want to talk relationship though and this is still about your relationship, so it's going to backfire if anything.

I've been shut down when I tried to flirt with you like I always did in the past. I've been shut down when I tried to say things like that I missed you.

This is not the way to talk about your feelings.  You can say you're hurt or upset, but you can't blame her for it.  That pushes her away.  Take the blame out of this statement and just say, "I miss flirting with you and enjoying our time together."

You have communicated fairly clearly to me that you don't seem to miss me, or crave me, or think about me very often.
If I'm going to be giving someone my physical affection, support, time and attention, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that person to give me some of those things in return.

She will read this as, "You're a bad person and don't deserve my affection."  Is that the result you were hoping for?

If sex and occasional conversation is all you desire from me, please just communicate that.

What she desires is casual conversation to see if there's a path back.  You can't rush that and stating it is like another ultimatum that she doesn't want to deal with.

I mean nothing but respectful communication here, and I wish you well.

To her, everything written here will be seen as a personal attack and a violation of her boundaries.  So let's try this again.

"Hi <name>, you were on my mind today and I hope you're doing well.  

I really miss the intellectual connection we once shared and the long conversations we'd have about life. I hope you're doing well and I'm trying hard to respect your boundaries. This has been hard on me because I miss having you more in my life. I don't know if you're seeing anyone else right now, but I hope whoever you're spending your time with is treating you well. It's difficult for me to accept sometimes but I am working on it and I want you to be happy more than anything. I would like it if we can continue to talk and occasionally spend some time together. I love you and I'll always be here for you."

Notice I kept all of that about you and your feelings, except in parts where I wish her well.  I also acknowledged that I'm working on myself to respect her more instead of telling her what she can't or won't do.  I don't like the line about other boyfriends but if it has to be there, that's how I'd say it to come off as un-threatening as possible.  I also removed all the ultimatums and started on something positive that shows I actually care.

You can't come at her passive-aggressive and tell her what she's doing wrong or how she can be better to you.  That's like a slap in the face to someone with BPD and it only confirms that the relationship can never work.  I hope this helps you (or others) set the tone a little better.  I'm a writer by trade and the ultimate goal is to engage your reader with dialogue that will resonate, so I'm speaking from 20 years of experience here.  Your letter will only push her away and hurt her.  Mine might get a neutral or a slightly positive reaction.

[OKrunch]

We ended up having a pretty long convo over the weekend (that she initiated, not me)
She explained "seeing me is hard, and it brings up a lot of memories that are hard"
She said we should stop having sex, and told me she needed to "move on from me"
but then towards the end of the convo, she was saying "Well see what happens, maybe we can still hang out. I dont know what I want or need"

I responded with "Ok, whatever you are comfortable with and whatever makes you feel happy and healthy"

She's all over the place. She is the wind, I, the mountain.

[once removed]

"Well see what happens, maybe we can still hang out. I dont know what I want or need"

it is pretty hard to read.

any update?

[OKrunch]

it is pretty hard to read.

any update?

I've been letting her do the reaching out. Which she has, spuratically.
All we have talked about in the last few days was issues she was having with the water system in her (our old) house.

WHen you say hard to read, do you mean like "Hard to get a read on" or like "Difficult to read beause emotions"?

[once removed]

the former. its a confusing message to be given on its face, though that doesnt mean its indecipherable.

the whole thing sounds like a "bad" incident, but not a death knell.

i get the feeling it was sparked.

if you have been approaching this from the stand point of "i am trying to reconcile a relationship" and shes been approaching it from the stand point of "i have leaned against doing so, but im conflicted", things kind of came to a head for you, where you felt a need to pretty much say "lets get together, or lets split", i suspect she felt similarly, but with a more negative spin.

for her, if she has leaned against it, but leaned the other way, or at least leaned less against it, but things havent gotten to the point theyd need to be to establish a relationship, then she may be asking herself what, ultimately, the point is. so when this discussion happened, she may have been trying to cut bait, but remains conflicted.

i could, of course, be reading that entirely wrong, but its my suspicion, the impression i get, and my experience with such talks.

"Ok, whatever you are comfortable with and whatever makes you feel happy and healthy"

if that is how you handled it, you were wise to do so. to close the subject on her confusion ("maybe i dont mean it i dont know what i need") rather than "NEVER EVER", is obviously a better place to be if reconciliation is your goal.

backing off a bit and letting her initiate the contact helps too. it thaws the ice on an otherwise bad night, and its clearly positive that shes doing so.

in other words, i see this as more of a sign of urgency (things need to change) than this meaning your chances have dropped significantly. i think they took a hit - i dont think shes seeing a future at this point, and i think thats what makes it painful, so shes not seeing the point in continuing it. that suggests the door isnt closed; shes still open to persuasion.

[OKrunch]

the former. its a confusing message to be given on its face, though that doesnt mean its indecipherable.

the whole thing sounds like a "bad" incident, but not a death knell.

i get the feeling it was sparked.

if you have been approaching this from the stand point of "i am trying to reconcile a relationship" and shes been approaching it from the stand point of "i have leaned against doing so, but im conflicted", things kind of came to a head for you, where you felt a need to pretty much say "lets get together, or lets split", i suspect she felt similarly, but with a more negative spin.

for her, if she has leaned against it, but leaned the other way, or at least leaned less against it, but things havent gotten to the point theyd need to be to establish a relationship, then she may be asking herself what, ultimately, the point is. so when this discussion happened, she may have been trying to cut bait, but remains conflicted.

i could, of course, be reading that entirely wrong, but its my suspicion, the impression i get, and my experience with such talks.

if that is how you handled it, you were wise to do so. to close the subject on her confusion ("maybe i dont mean it i dont know what i need") rather than "NEVER EVER", is obviously a better place to be if reconciliation is your goal.

backing off a bit and letting her initiate the contact helps too. it thaws the ice on an otherwise bad night, and its clearly positive that shes doing so.

in other words, i see this as more of a sign of urgency (things need to change) than this meaning your chances have dropped significantly. i think they took a hit - i dont think shes seeing a future at this point, and i think thats what makes it painful, so shes not seeing the point in continuing it. that suggests the door isnt closed; shes still open to persuasion.

All of our conversation of late, excluding the one about "us" this past weekend, has been about only her house.
I was honestly surprised she picked the convo back up yesterday and reached out to let me know the conclusion.
Last message i sent her last night was "Happy Super Blue Moon, enjoy her light" - to which she didnt respond.
The moon, sun, stars and whatnot are all pretty important to her.
She didnt reply to that, and I haven't messaged today.

Im constantly trying to guess when i should reach out, when i shouldnt, how long to wait, etc.
its taxing .

Next weekend, (8th-10th) we both dont have our kids.
I am hoping she asks to hang out, but right now, i dont think I should request it.

Any thoughts on how to proceed in the coming weeks?

[once removed]

Any thoughts on how to proceed in the coming weeks?

i wouldnt really worry about it too much. id mainly just be trying to create a few days of pleasantness to get past the other night, kinda move past that, and kinda let her keep up initiating.

but beyond that, i dont think youll be shooting yourself in the foot to reach out to her or anything, if you have something to say and a reason to say it.

I am hoping she asks to hang out, but right now, i dont think I should request it.

yeah, if it were me, i wouldnt go there, or directly or overtly flirt with her for the time being. upbeat/cool/confident/charming/whatever, but id avoid anything direct for now.

youll probably have a better feel for how to proceed in just a few days.

[OKrunch]

Sometimes it feels like she is already seeing someone else again and just donesn't want me to know yet incase it doesn't pan out.

[OKrunch]

i wouldnt really worry about it too much. id mainly just be trying to create a few days of pleasantness to get past the other night, kinda move past that, and kinda let her keep up initiating.

but beyond that, i dont think youll be shooting yourself in the foot to reach out to her or anything, if you have something to say and a reason to say it.

yeah, if it were me, i wouldnt go there, or directly or overtly flirt with her for the time being. upbeat/cool/confident/charming/whatever, but id avoid anything direct for now.

youll probably have a better feel for how to proceed in just a few days.

Ok thanks for the input.
I appreciate it.

[Anonymous22]

I am no pro, by any means, but I will say I have noticed that when I follow the opposite of my instinct with my uBDPh, I am usually better off than if I follow my instinct.

[OKrunch]

I am no pro, by any means, but I will say I have noticed that when I follow the opposite of my instinct with my uBDPh, I am usually better off than if I follow my instinct.

Can you give an example?

[Anonymous22]

When my instinct says show him how much you care, that you want him around, that you want to contact him, that you want him to know that he is loved and wanted by his family, that he is our rock, that if I just make him feel "more loved" in the house, that he will stay around, he will split us all white at least for the time being, etc.  That's what I would want someone to do for me if I were truly feeling the way he says or seems to feel.  But...it seems like when I start to move forward, caring deep down so much about him, but not showing it and replying with the "cool" texts that he responds to me, removing all emotion, not initiating any flirting, including him when appropriate (we have kids together) all of a sudden he asks when he can come over to see the kids, offers to pick me up after I take my car in for its oil change so that the kids and I don't have to wait, randomly ends ups staying late to help put the kids to bed, so he can't go home that late, wants to know what we have been up to in a good way, etc.  Once, I decided to clean our bathroom (he is currently living at a rental house while the kids and I live in our house).  His stuff was a mess all over his side of the bathroom, and he isn't there to use it.  My kids want to be wherever I am, so I decided to clean his side and make it a place that the kids can use, instead of all of us cramming onto my side when we get ready in the morning.  I was afraid that this may piss him off, but decided to do so anyways, as it would be useful.  When he noticed it, he had the opposite reaction, "what are you kicking me out!" jokingly...then he put all of his stuff back out and started using the bathroom again!  As I said, everything with him is a cycle, I know the cycle like the back of my hand, I continue to work hard to figure out things like this that make the bads of the cycle shorter...and I have noticed lately that this is something that is backwards for me, but works to a degree! 

[Anonymous22]

Let me add to that, when he is in a "good mood", I do follow my instincts for the most part. 

[OKrunch]

Did some thinking last night, and although I've been trying to veer away from the "Why does she do what she does" line of thinking, that is where I often, and inevitably last night ended up.

I was looking back at our convo from last weekend, and where she is so wishy washy about not seeing me anymore.

It almost feels like she had some burst of resolve, and was convincing herself to let it go.

Despite her efforts of projecting an air of "I am done, and content and ive moved on", she clearly hasn't.

"I need to move on from you"
"after I see you, it brings up past emotions"
"Its not that you're messy, its how i process it. Sometimes its just too much aftewards"
"I wasn't able to leave it in the past, it may not have bothered you after seeing eachother, but it bothered me"
These are some of the standout remarks she made of late.

We never stay out of touch for more than a month and a half.
During our first breakup and eventual reunion, we were in touch pretty much the entire time, and only went from December to May before becoming involved again, and I believe that would have occured earlier but she had tried dating someone else.
Since we split last September, we have reconnected or hooked up in January, then again in June/July.
It almost sets a pattern of "Every 4 Months" pattern. Which I find interesting because that is the duration of a season.
There are so many things that connect her to seasonal or lunar patterns. She really is some sort of mythological creature. A fleeting, seasonal, fairy creature.

Lastly, I am trying to keep myself reminded of the following things.
1.) I have never given up on her, despite her having given up on me over and over again. - I am the stable portion of this dynamic.
2.) I need to remeber that, A. Despite what my instinct will often tell me, I am in a position of equal power here. I can entirely remove myself from this entire situation at any time. B. I deserve honesty, compassion, transparancy and equal commitment.
She has shown she doesn't want and/or cannot achive this. While I maintain hope that someday she can, I will not settle for being played with.
3.) I am a smart, attractive, and interesting man. If this ultimately doesn't work (and it seems more and more like that each day. while we might flit and orbit about eachother, unless something fresh new and honest occurs, that may be as far as it goes) that I can and will find the love and devotion I have long sought in my life.

I tried reaching out with one antecdotal message yesterday ( a link to an article that I know we would have discussed at length in the past), She ignored me yet again. So, I will leave that mesage hanging in the air, and not reach out again for now.
If history is any indicator, she will eventually shoot something back my way, and If not, well, WHATEVER.

[Pook075]

1.) I have never given up on her, despite her having given up on me over and over again. - I am the stable portion of this dynamic.
2.) I need to remeber that, A. Despite what my instinct will often tell me, I am in a position of equal power here. I can entirely remove myself from this entire situation at any time. B. I deserve honesty, compassion, transparancy and equal commitment.
She has shown she doesn't want and/or cannot achive this. While I maintain hope that someday she can, I will not settle for being played with.
3.) I am a smart, attractive, and interesting man. If this ultimately doesn't work (and it seems more and more like that each day. while we might flit and orbit about eachother, unless something fresh new and honest occurs, that may be as far as it goes) that I can and will find the love and devotion I have long sought in my life.

Hey buddy.  Just some follow up on your thoughts:

1) You haven't given up and you're the rock.  But is that a good thing?  If she treats you good, you're there.  If she treats you bad, you're there.  So there's no reason for her to commit to anything because you're always there.  To me, that's walking on eggshells and devaluing yourself to keep her on a pedestal...and that's what is keeping you from truly moving on.

2) You can walk away at any time, but you've chosen not to. That's your right. But again, what type of message does that send to her?

3) Why wait? Find that love and devotion now. If it's meant to work out down the road, then it will. You have to stop being a victim to her mental illness though.

[OKrunch]

Hey buddy.  Just some follow up on your thoughts:

1) You haven't given up and you're the rock.  But is that a good thing?  If she treats you good, you're there.  If she treats you bad, you're there.  So there's no reason for her to commit to anything because you're always there.  To me, that's walking on eggshells and devaluing yourself to keep her on a pedestal...and that's what is keeping you from truly moving on.

2) You can walk away at any time, but you've chosen not to. That's your right. But again, what type of message does that send to her?

3) Why wait? Find that love and devotion now. If it's meant to work out down the road, then it will. You have to stop being a victim to her mental illness though.

Pretty much what I am thinking.

It all boils down the the Rodney Dangerfield effect. "I get no respect"

[Pook075]

Pretty much what I am thinking.

It all boils down the the Rodney Dangerfield effect. "I get no respect"

Unfortunately, I agree.  For her to see you in a different light, you actually need to be in a different light.  That means finding your own happiness outside of her and the relationship.  We can't look back buddy, the past is dead and we can't do anything about it.  It's time to move forward and heal.

[once removed]

It all boils down the the Rodney Dangerfield effect. "I get no respect"

i dont understand this line of thinking.

B. I deserve honesty, compassion, transparancy and equal commitment.
She has shown she doesn't want and/or cannot achive this

youre expecting these things from someone who isnt in a relationship with you.

from someone youre trying to convince to be in a relationship with you.

certainly, if someone is disrespecting you, or is treating you badly, or is flat out disinterested, theres no point in barking up that tree. i dont see her doing any of those things.

I've been trying to veer away from the "Why does she do what she does" line of thinking

understanding "why she does what she does" is paramount for trying to connect with her; not something to veer away from. you may be forming unhelpful conclusions about it, though.

She has shown she doesn't want and/or cannot achive this.

what she has shown, and what you refer to as "wishy washy" is simply feeling conflicted. i get that everything is more urgent and hard to decipher when youre in the middle of it, but her position, and her feelings, are fairly clear, and consistent.

she likes you. she has feelings for you.

those feelings are complicated by your history.

after a couple of months of testing the waters, nothing has really changed, and she doesnt see a path forward. when that happens, it is usually the healthiest thing to do to walk away. shes not quite there yet, but shes leaning, and moving in that direction.

its an urgent moment, OKrunch.

if your strategy is still "If history is any indicator, she will eventually shoot something back my way, and If not, well, WHATEVER.", it is going to slip away.

[OKrunch]

i dont understand this line of thinking.

youre expecting these things from someone who isnt in a relationship with you.

from someone youre trying to convince to be in a relationship with you.

certainly, if someone is disrespecting you, or is treating you badly, or is flat out disinterested, theres no point in barking up that tree. i dont see her doing any of those things.

understanding "why she does what she does" is paramount for trying to connect with her; not something to veer away from. you may be forming unhelpful conclusions about it, though.

what she has shown, and what you refer to as "wishy washy" is simply feeling conflicted. i get that everything is more urgent and hard to decipher when youre in the middle of it, but her position, and her feelings, are fairly clear, and consistent.

she likes you. she has feelings for you.

those feelings are complicated by your history.

after a couple of months of testing the waters, nothing has really changed, and she doesnt see a path forward. when that happens, it is usually the healthiest thing to do to walk away. shes not quite there yet, but shes leaning, and moving in that direction.

its an urgent moment, OKrunch.

if your strategy is still "If history is any indicator, she will eventually shoot something back my way, and If not, well, WHATEVER.", it is going to slip away.

If I reach out, I often get ignored.
But if I don't it's "letting it slip away"
Seems like a catch 22 if you ask me.

Am I missing something here?

[OKrunch]

You say it is an urgent moment, what am I supposed to do?

I get ignored, only contacted when she wants something.
I said I get no respect because it's common human decency to not leave people on read.
To not lie to people you once loved.

If she had an iota of legitimate interest, I'd see effort from her end.
I know what that looks like, and I haven't seen it since January.

I'm not confronting her about anything..
I'm just done reaching out.
If she misses hearing from me, she'll reach out.

I'm sick of sending pleasant messages that get ignored for a day and a half, then the conversation gets ignored and forgotten halfway through.

She was happy to text me a short novel the other day when she wanted to vent and complain about the house and landlord.
AS SOON as I asked about how work and her day was going, ignore mode activated.

To continue to participate in this dynamic only communicates to her I am ok with being treated this way, and I'm not.
So I won't.

They say if you love someone let them go and if it's meant to be they will come back.

[once removed]

[/u]sg13199746#msg13199746 date=1693680656]
I get ignored, only contacted when she wants something.

I know the lack of a reply is frustrating.

It seems like it hits a sore spot.

It's as good a reason as any, to break up with, or stop pursuing a person, if that's what you really want to do.

But is she really ignoring you? Disrespecting you? Lying to you? Those are pretty personal terms. People leave people on read all the time. Especially flighty people like her. If getting consistent replies to things you share is something you feel strongly about, or how you're gauging her interest here, then yes, you are probably barking up the wrong tree.

But you also know she has reached out pretty consistently, and what you've detailed didn't sound like she was wanting anything.

I'm not on her side here. Just trying to keep things in perspective.

You want her love back. It hurts like hell and it's frustrating not having it; or having part of it, not knowing what it means.

How many times have you said THIS is the time, you're walking away, she can take it or leave it, but by golly, you'll have your respect? You don't mean it. So why do it?

Because it feels better than sending a message that isn't replied to. Or her not flirting.

I tried to think of a better phrase: you're trying too hard. Not trying too hard the way people normally think of it. Not to tell you to "pull away". Trying too hard, to be able to listen, to see. Getting in the way of yourself.

You're expecting her to pursue you. Show "interest". In other words, treat you like a boyfriend.

That is not realistic. I dont know why you expect it, only to take it as a rejection of you when it doesnt happen. But neither is it disrespect or an indication that she's not interested.

In the way you're going about this, your feelings are clouding your ability to see her, to listen, to see the situation, to see yourself in it all. This is a hard ship to steer if you can't read the signals.

From both of your perspectives, this isn't going anywhere. But you're miles apart as to why that is, and what the implications are for each of you.

[OKrunch]

So what the hell should I do? I'm so damn confused and conflicted

[once removed]

So what the hell should I do? I'm so damn confused and conflicted

I tried to think of a better phrase: you're trying too hard. Not trying too hard the way people normally think of it. Not to tell you to "pull away". Trying too hard, to be able to listen, to see. Getting in the way of yourself.

right now isnt really the time or opportunity to "do" anything specific as shes concerned. there isnt really anything you can do right now. in the best of circumstances, there isnt a specific thing you can do to achieve reconciliation.

the point is more about your overall approach, staying centered, and keeping perspective. thats what will help you navigate. its what will give you clarity in the confusion. its about having a full context of the past, and how to handle the future, when things come up.

for example, youre doing some things that are virtually guaranteed to be rejected, and then seeing them as a personal rejection of you and reacting to that, or seeing them as her being wishy washy, or over compensating when they happen. that makes it hard to see her, understand where shes coming from. it makes it hard to know how to navigate. it makes it harder to distinguish between whether shes rejecting YOU, or rejecting your approach, and perhaps most importantly, why.

or for another example, youre measuring success/progress/her interest in ways that are not likely to be good indicators either way, and its confusing you. thats losing sight of both where shes coming from, and the big picture.

i wish i had a pendulum in front of us. it would be a lot easier to demonstrate. you need to harness the ability to see past your feelings, see the pendulum, see where you both are on it, and how each of you is moving, or not, on it. think of this as an extension of the breakdown of your relationship. the inability to resolve conflict and communicate. its still playing out now.

i think that the other day did some damage to your efforts (it remains to be seen how much). i think she felt cornered. from where shes coming from, if any part of her is entertaining reconciliation (and it would be a part of her, not all of her), then theres gonna be a sense of "if we were going to get back together, we already would have by now". when you reach that point, anything can be a tipping point into "it would be better for both of us if we stop pursuing this". i think things hit that point, i think thats what she was trying to do, but its not clear that she reached that point permanently. she will, though, on this trajectory, even if it takes trying 5 more times.

the only thing to really "do" there is try to lightly and deftly get past it, and hope theres enough left there to keep that spark. assuming there is (and there are signs that there is), its important not to just keep that spark, but to be able to grow it.

[Pook075]

So what the hell should I do? I'm so damn confused and conflicted

You set her free and truly move on.  You stop waiting for the phone to ring.  You stop trying to catch her attention.  You just walk away and find yourself outside of that relationship.

Or you can force her hand, and demand that she commit to you or move on. You already know what's going to happen, but it might be better for you in order to actually see this in a different way.

What you can't do is what you're doing now- holding onto hope that a broken relationship will magically fix itself.  It won't.  Everything you've tried has failed, but you keep doing it anyway and it's tearing you apart.  When is it enough?  When will you decide to actually heal? 

That's the only way any of this works out in your favor, regardless if you end up back together or not.

[OKrunch]

You set her free and truly move on.  You stop waiting for the phone to ring.  You stop trying to catch her attention.  You just walk away and find yourself outside of that relationship.

Or you can force her hand, and demand that she commit to you or move on. You already know what's going to happen, but it might be better for you in order to actually see this in a different way.

What you can't do is what you're doing now- holding onto hope that a broken relationship will magically fix itself.  It won't.  Everything you've tried has failed, but you keep doing it anyway and it's tearing you apart.  When is it enough?  When will you decide to actually heal? 

That's the only way any of this works out in your favor, regardless if you end up back together or not.

I agree Pook, my head is tender from banging it against the wall. I sent some photos from a day out with my kid the day before yesterday. No response, it was the only message I sent. Nothing yesterday either. Im not making a fuss over it, but I cant keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.
I awoke today with one (hopefuly last) gasp of anger and frustration. Being ignored is a crappy feeling, and I have a lot to offer the world, a partner and most importantly my son and myself.
Given that we have broken up before, and "recycled" (i hate that term) several times, I know what it feels like when shes interested in me, I know what it feels like when shes struggling, and I know what it feels like when I am being pushed aside for new limerance. This is what it feels like now, and I am not hanging around for that.

Its easy to feel like its your last chance when a 2nd major relationship fails at 36.

Despite the fact that she is the most interesting, sexy, amazing woman I have known, it does not make walking on eggshells, constantly making sure shes ok, propping her up, and being dispoasble and only desired when useful or lonley is exhausting.
Im not saying anything to her, and just cooling off, stopping pursuing.
My absence may change things for her, but I wont be around to know or care if it does.

I think I am going to try and move up north in the next few years. Its always been a goal of mine. I feel genuinley better there. My soul sings and the air is clear. Where i live is too crowded and developed.

[once removed]

I am not hanging around for that.
...
it does not make walking on eggshells, constantly making sure shes ok, propping her up, and being dispoasble and only desired when useful or lonley is exhausting.
Im not saying anything to her, and just cooling off, stopping pursuing.
My absence may change things for her, but I wont be around to know or care if it does.

dude?

youve said these things before too.

i say this affectionately: what are you doing?

I sent some photos from a day out with my kid the day before yesterday. No response,

its lousy to be sent such a personal thing and not respond.

at the same time, its kind of a heavy thing to send to someone who was just telling you that these sorts of things bring up painful memories, and who was/is trying to walk away from that.

so is it truly all that surprising?

I cant keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

you cant keep doing the same thing and be surprised by the results, either. what you keep seeing as a cold shoulder to your loving gestures is, frankly, you not reading the room.