I'm a liar

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I was caught in a lie

 I officiated the wedding of 2 friends Brittany and Jake juat before i met my ubpdwife. They'd initially met in 2012 because Brittany and I dated for several months. She was a great person but I just didn't feel a spark and we parted ways on good terms and she moved out of state.  In 2017 Brittany moved back and ran into my good friend Jake. He hinted that he was interested in dating Brittany and wanted to see if it'd make me uncomfortable. Quite the opposite,  I  thought they would be a perfect match.  I penciled them in immediately as a future husband and wife. In 2019 I was proven right and was a groomsman and the officiant of their wedding. It was a happy day.

A week or 2 later I met my wife who I now think has bpd and gushed about the situation on our second date, as I was proud of my speech and thought it was a life is funny kinda story.  She didn't seem to think it was as cool a story as I did and she was a little uncomfortable about there being any exes around.  Covid happened and this became a smaller issue. But one day a month or so after Rita and I moved in together things came to a head as we'd been at an event with Brittany and Jake. My wife started saying she was too uncomfortable to be around Brittany and it was going to break us up. The emotions got so huge to a degree I'd never seen before with sobbing,  hyper ventilating, screaming.  She told me to make it okay,  to make her believe "it was nothing". I am not proud but that's when I started the lie. I said it was nothing and kept agreeing and downplaying the situation.  By the end of an hour or more of this I was saying Brittany and I had only gone on 2 dates and not even held hands. She calmed down and the hysteria ended.

I was shell shocked and thought this was the most bizarre thing I'd ever done. It felt like this shared fantasy we built over that hour ir two. I felt like something shifted in that moment and felt trapped by my lie,  but figured deep down she knew the truth and this was just some weird coping mechanism and she wouldn't press the issue again. But she did.  She kept randomly asking for reassurance and telling me if she found out I was lying in any way about this she'd break up with me. And so,  to my shame I kept up the lies.

Last week she saw something on Facebook and asked me about how my story didn't line up and I just bluntly came clean with the truth. It has been hell since. She has every right to be upset, and I am all twisted inside as I know the lying was wrong. I also had never had somebody wear me down over an hours long episode and felt like she was in on the lie somehow. Sorry this story is so long and probably makes me look crazy and weak but maybe people here have a better chance understanding than anywhere else.

Last night she was demanding i say i regretted the relationship with Brittany and that she is a disgusting waste of space. I refused saying I took the cowards way out by saying things that weren't true and it got us into a huge mess,  and doing more of the same wouldn't fix it. After hours of this at 130am I said I can't talk about this anymore and if you don't let me go to bed I will leave the house at 145am. She agreed and asked me to rub her back and help her fall asleep. I started to rub her back but she kept making these same demands saying she knows it's hard but in order to heal damage from my lie I have to man up and say these things for her.

I refused and at 147am I got up to leave. She sprung up behind me in the hall as I grabbed clothes and shoes and blocked my way. For 15 minutes I asked her to let me leave. I begged and she wouldn't budge. I finally screamed and she still wouldn't budge.  I tried to gently squeeze by and she got even more livid.  I've never seen anybody look like they wanted to kill me but man her face was something else.  She told me I was small and disgusting and to get the PLEASE READ back in the bedroom and rub her back. Finally I thought of grabbing my phone to record and then she quickly got out of my way on the condition I delete the video.

TLDR: I lied to my bpd wife about a past relationship and now her behavior is escalating and I don't know what to do.

[Blurr]

I was caught in a lie

 I officiated the wedding of 2 friends Brittany and Jake juat before i met my ubpdwife. They'd initially met in 2012 because Brittany and I dated for several months. She was a great person but I just didn't feel a spark and we parted ways on good terms and she moved out of state.  In 2017 Brittany moved back and ran into my good friend Jake. He hinted that he was interested in dating Brittany and wanted to see if it'd make me uncomfortable. Quite the opposite,  I  thought they would be a perfect match.  I penciled them in immediately as a future husband and wife. In 2019 I was proven right and was a groomsman and the officiant of their wedding. It was a happy day.

A week or 2 later I met my wife who I now think has bpd and gushed about the situation on our second date, as I was proud of my speech and thought it was a life is funny kinda story.  She didn't seem to think it was as cool a story as I did and she was a little uncomfortable about there being any exes around.  Covid happened and this became a smaller issue. But one day a month or so after Rita and I moved in together things came to a head as we'd been at an event with Brittany and Jake. My wife started saying she was too uncomfortable to be around Brittany and it was going to break us up. The emotions got so huge to a degree I'd never seen before with sobbing,  hyper ventilating, screaming.  She told me to make it okay,  to make her believe "it was nothing". I am not proud but that's when I started the lie. I said it was nothing and kept agreeing and downplaying the situation.  By the end of an hour or more of this I was saying Brittany and I had only gone on 2 dates and not even held hands. She calmed down and the hysteria ended.

I was shell shocked and thought this was the most bizarre thing I'd ever done. It felt like this shared fantasy we built over that hour ir two. I felt like something shifted in that moment and felt trapped by my lie,  but figured deep down she knew the truth and this was just some weird coping mechanism and she wouldn't press the issue again. But she did.  She kept randomly asking for reassurance and telling me if she found out I was lying in any way about this she'd break up with me. And so,  to my shame I kept up the lies.

Last week she saw something on Facebook and asked me about how my story didn't line up and I just bluntly came clean with the truth. It has been hell since. She has every right to be upset, and I am all twisted inside as I know the lying was wrong. I also had never had somebody wear me down over an hours long episode and felt like she was in on the lie somehow. Sorry this story is so long and probably makes me look crazy and weak but maybe people here have a better chance understanding than anywhere else.

Last night she was demanding i say i regretted the relationship with Brittany and that she is a disgusting waste of space. I refused saying I took the cowards way out by saying things that weren't true and it got us into a huge mess,  and doing more of the same wouldn't fix it. After hours of this at 130am I said I can't talk about this anymore and if you don't let me go to bed I will leave the house at 145am. She agreed and asked me to rub her back and help her fall asleep. I started to rub her back but she kept making these same demands saying she knows it's hard but in order to heal damage from my lie I have to man up and say these things for her.

I refused and at 147am I got up to leave. She sprung up behind me in the hall as I grabbed clothes and shoes and blocked my way. For 15 minutes I asked her to let me leave. I begged and she wouldn't budge. I finally screamed and she still wouldn't budge.  I tried to gently squeeze by and she got even more livid.  I've never seen anybody look like they wanted to kill me but man her face was something else.  She told me I was small and disgusting and to get the PLEASE READ back in the bedroom and rub her back. Finally I thought of grabbing my phone to record and then she quickly got out of my way on the condition I delete the video.

TLDR: I lied to my bpd wife about a past relationship and now her behavior is escalating and I don't know what to do.

[ForeverDad]

My ex too was very sensitive to any hints of my relationships before her, not that I had any.  Yet she could tell me all about the guys who wanted her.  Her rule to me didn't apply to her.  Quite one-sided and unfair, but that's how she saw it.

Around here in BPD peer support we're familiar with such incidents.

After you make private backups of the recording, sure, you can delete it.  But never mention about backups.  Why?  Because you have a right to privacy and confidentiality.  Odds are - sadly - that incidents like this will occur again.  They did for me and I foolishly recorded, then deleted, over and over until I learned to make private backups - to which she had no electronic or physical access - first.

Be cautious about forcing your way past your spouse.  Other members here did that with mixed results.  For some nothing happened afterward.  For others their partner filed a complaint with the police claiming being abused and even thrown down the stairs.  In other words, protect yourself.  My lawyer told me his first action upon being hired was to sit on his clients so their talking didn't make his task more difficult.  You have a right to be silent when facing incidents with officialdom.  Follow your lawyer's advice.

You were in a precarious situation.  Some decided, for example, to lock themselves in a bathroom and call emergency services stating they needed passage out of the home.  (Of course, by the time the police or other responders arrive your spouse will have composed herself enough to claim you were the abuser and try to have you carted off.  Um, that's where a recording of what actually happened is so valuable, otherwise the authorities responding only have your account against the other's account and generally deference in the moment goes to the woman.

Remember, if police are called, their number one priority is to minimize the immediate dispute.  That means someone has to leave.  You don't need us to say who that would be.  Again, a recording might be helpful, if not there, then in court.

There is a real risk she could raise the stakes to the next level, to a legal level.  A saying I read here and it resonated so much that I have repeated over the years... "If it has been threatened or even just contemplated, then it will happen, given enough time.  How much time will you remain in the relationship if this sort of conflict cannot be resolved?  And when I write "this sort of conflict" I mean this: something like this will keep happening unless she get mental health therapy (and she diligently applies it over years) or you get distance apart, typically by ending the relationship.

Not to be too generalized, hers is an "all or nothing" perception, either you agree with her 100% of the timer or you are nothing.  There is not much in between.

This time you know what her trigger is.  Who can predict her next trigger or triggers?

[Blurr]

Thanks for reading and understanding,  it feels important to be understood. This makes me remember how during the incident she said something about me stepping on her toes. I'd been in bare feet and I absolutely didn't step on her foot at all. But I can see how close I was to it being worse than it was. And it was bad in my opinion

[Pook075]

That's a tough situation because as you said, you were essentially forced to lie.  Once you came clean, she insisted that you lie again.  The "problem" here, at least in her eyes, is that you told the truth.  How do you feel about that?

My friend, everyone has a past.  You don't have to apologize for that unless your current wife was a virgin and you claimed to be the same.  However, people w/ BPD have abandonment issues and they'll go so overboard with jealousy, that it destroys the relationship.  She's clueless that she's doing this because she feels that her anger/jealousy/whatever is justified.

While this is a tough situation, just give it some time.  Maybe she'll realize the mistake and apologize. Or maybe she'll double down.  Either way though, this is an opportunity for you to take a break from the chaos and focus on yourself a little bit.  Focus on anything but the relationship for a bit and give her some space to process what happened.

Just realize that you did nothing wrong- the hours of interrogation were psychological abuse and people have admitted to all kinds of things under that type of duress.  There's been suspected murderers who confessed and later recanted, only to be convicted based on their confession.  Years later, they were proven innocent and it's changed how interrogations are conducted.  Plain and simple, you cracked under pressure and said whatever you had to in order to make the interrogation stop.  

The problem wasn't the lie- it was the hours of mental abuse that forced you to say anything to placate her fragile ego.  I hope that helps a little.

[Always_wrong]

I can relate to this as well.

My uBPD wife constantly brings up my ex even though I'm never allowed to bring it up. If I mention anything to do with my ex, she goes off.  Even to the point I'll mention that I like a restaurant and she'll then ask if that's because I went there with my ex. (we live in a small town, but luckily my ex moved away). When we first got together the uBPD wife insisted we couldn't do anything that I had already done with the ex. For example she knew my ex and I went on a criuse for our honeymoon so that meant that we could never go on any cruises, or go to Vegas as my ex and I went there.  This made no sense since like I mentioned we live in a small town, so basically everywhere in that town I had been to with my ex, restaurants, parks, beaches, etc.
As for lying, I'm constantly put into a Catch-22 position.  She'll ask me somthing for which I'm damned if I do or damned if I don't.  So if I tell her the truth, she'll be angry but if i tell her what she wants to hear, it's only a matter of time before something happens that reveals I "lied" to her and then I'm in trouble.
I've figured out that she is only ever happy if I'm doing what she tells me to do, when she wants me to do it and in the manner she wants it done.  But rarely do I ever get all of these right, so I'm always wrong.

[FarDrop77]

I never lied before I met my wife.  But, like you explained, it's almost like some requirement that you enter an uncomfortable shared fantasy with them, and if you ever slip and act like a real person instead of the perfect ideal soulmate destined by fate, you enter a different fantasy where you are their abuser and they the victim.  Personally I feel like you did exactly what she wanted when you lied, and the again exactly what she wanted when you came clean; she's manipulated you into playing part in a compulsive ritual that she can't stop herself from performing.

[JoeBPD81]

I so relate that I get PTSD just by reading it.

I used to be patologically honest. I gave my word to someone and that tied me to do what I said even if it was irrelevant with new information. Once they gave some silly toy with a pack of yogurt, someone took the yogurt and left the prize, I thought I could take the prize, because it didn't belong to anyone... But I felt it was stealing anyway, and I didn't do it. So I was so honest I was stupid. People trusted me. And I deserved that trust.

I remember only two people in my life that accused me of lying (and they were wrong), and they stuck in my memory and made me angry.

Then I went into this RS. I told her everything. She met me while I was thinking about divorcing my ex-wife. My ex was my 1st girlfriend ever, and we were together for 15 years.

My then wife and I talked about things not going right with our marriage. I wanted stability and kids and she wanted to live like a 20 year old forever. Both plans were respectable, but folowing her was taking a toll on me, and I felt I was dead weight to her. We kept sharing our house not sure were we would go from there. And in this situation I told her, later, that I had met someone and my feelings for this new woman were in the way of thinking clearly about our divorce. I told her I wanted to meet this woman in person (I only knew her online) to be sure what I felt. It was a selfish douchbaggy request. And I've thought many times that lying would have done much less damage to her. The good person thing to do would have been to lie. But I was that stupid.

My 2nd RS ever, was with this BPDwoman. After leaving my house, I told this BPDw everything. I lived alone, and I told her I wasn't planning on getting back to my ex, but that I was in pain and needed time to mourn. I told her I cried everyday, most of the time. Wounds started to heal, and I rented a better apartment so she and her kids could come on the weekends. Then my ex told me she needed to block me to move on (she was in another RS). It took me by surprise because we didn't have much contact, and I believed she was OK. It made me sad that what I did still hurt her all those months later, and I was still sad but moving on. I also told BPDW this.

Then BPDw made a facebook account and researched all my past, and went balistic. Even thought it was the same I had told her. She demanded that I erased all the traces of my previous RS from Facebook, and told me it was the decent thing to do (I had no clue, as I had had only one RS in my life). I thought erasing something that already happened, it was lying.

The topic of my ex has been  a nightmare ever since. And I didn't even had a phonecall with her in all these years.

The thing is I act shady and sneaky, because I know she won't believe me, not because I'm lying. I procastinate telling her anything. It's never a good time.

Also, as her kids have also mental ilnesses, my world is 75% their vission, and 25% what I consider reallity and true. Most of the time I don't know where is up and where is down.

[Blurr]

That's a tough situation because as you said, you were essentially forced to lie.  Once you came clean, she insisted that you lie again.  The "problem" here, at least in her eyes, is that you told the truth.  How do you feel about that?

It makes me feel confused and like nothing in my life makes sense. She is raking me over the coals for lying. And asks me to make new lies to fix it. And it is so tempting to just slip back into it and say what she wants to hear again. I stayed at a friend's house last night but met up with her before work this morning. She tried again to get me to say negative things about the past relationship but was willing to compromise if I said "I would never date Brittany again, and learned some things I didn't like about relationships from that one". That sounds so reasonable as of course there were some things I didn't like about the relationship. But I know she will find ways to expand that and slowly work me into saying exactly what she wants to hear. Part of me doubted my memory of what happened when the lie started in the first place, but I am seeing something eerily similar play out now and this time I'm journaling, and sharing with a therapist and close friend so I won't have to doubt this reality.

[ForeverDad]

Quite a few have chimed in acknowledging they too have been put under duress by their Borderline relationship.  What happened is that your sense of personal Boundaries was torn to shreds and keeps getting battered, over and over.

Are you familiar with how we set Boundaries?  Many pwBPD resist boundaries and even if they initially agree, the efforts often don't last long.  Therefore, the boundaries we set are for us to follow.  A poor but very simple example is something like this:  "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  Of course, not said too bluntly.  Over on our Tools & Skills Workshops board we have a couple topics on Boundaries.  Also this link:

Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

A warning though... By setting boundaries, the Borderline spouse will resist and try to force you back to the prior pattern since that is the pwBPD's "comfort zone".  We call that an extinction burst.  While some may come to abide by your newfound boundaries, be forewarned that challenges to your boundaries won't stop if your partner is not in meaningful and lengthy therapy.  For the others, well, the relationship will continue to be dysfunctional and the wise course is to find a least damaging exit.  It will be painful, it will be costly, but when you reach the light at the end of the tunnel, it will have been worth the effort.

[Blurr]

FD I had been using some of those tools and setting boundaries with a bit of success before this situation came to a head and crashed everything down. For example swearing loudly in my face resulted in me taking a fifteen minute walk. I was holding that fairly well and think that behavior ticked down a bit.  Plus it got easier for me to know when to leave the situation.

Now it feels like an impossible hill to get back to where we were, and that wasn't very good to begin with. Now she has the moral high ground and is channeling it into righteous fury or being a martyr who is willing to forgive her pathetic and undeserving husband despite her better judgement. Every once in a while after really hitting me with insults she wants to be kissed or held and to feel like I'm deeply in love.  I'm too shell shocked and numb in those moments to know what to do.  This is hard.

[ForeverDad]

I separated over 17 years ago.  My divorce was final over 15 years ago.  Our son became an adult a few years ago.  To this day whenever my ex visits our son in my presence I still have to be very careful not to trigger her.  And of course all the discord for all those years was my fault, in her mind.

Don't expect your ex to suddenly recant sometime in the future all the wrongs that were done.

[Always_wrong]

Blurr

I feel for you and I'm in a similar position.  We just had a 6 day fight that I think may have ended but not sure as there never is really an ending.  Though she seems much calmer the last couple of days and says she loves me again after 6 days of me being the most horrible person ever.

Like you, I walked into this one and said something that embarassed her in front of her friends. So, she has the moral high ground as I made a mistake and let my emotions get the best of me in a public forum and called her out for acting like a 2 year old.  I've apologized many times over the days and said it's unconditionally my fault (leaving out the fact that I was calling out her childish behaviour).

Now she laudes it over my head how awful I am and how she now has to decide if I'm good enough for her.  I'm undeserving of her and once again she is going to have to lower her standards again for me.  Like always, she's the one that has to pay for my transgression by taking the short end of the stick and accepting it.  But...never forgiving.  She threatened to leave me a couple of times this week, but never followed through on the threat even though I told her I understood why she had to leave and that I deserved her leaving. 

Now I just wait until the next time I do something wrong and the process starts again, except she has yet another thing to throw at me in the next arguement, as I'm sure this will go into the endless list of my transgressions.

[ForeverDad]

Now I just wait until the next time I do something wrong and the process starts again, except she has yet another thing to throw at me in the next argument, as I'm sure this will go into the endless list of my transgressions.

Sounds like you're a victim willing to continue a hostage scenario?

Dr Joe Carver, a retired clinical psychologist, wrote some online pamphlets, here's a few to read.
https://drjoecarver.com/3/miscellaneous2.htm

• Personality Disorders: The Controllers, Abusers, Manipulators and Users in Relationships
• Identifying Losers, Controllers and Abusers in Relationships
• Love and Stockholm Syndrome: The Mystery of Loving an Abuser

[Pook075]

It makes me feel confused and like nothing in my life makes sense. She is raking me over the coals for lying. And asks me to make new lies to fix it. And it is so tempting to just slip back into it and say what she wants to hear again. I stayed at a friend's house last night but met up with her before work this morning. She tried again to get me to say negative things about the past relationship but was willing to compromise if I said "I would never date Brittany again, and learned some things I didn't like about relationships from that one". That sounds so reasonable as of course there were some things I didn't like about the relationship. But I know she will find ways to expand that and slowly work me into saying exactly what she wants to hear. Part of me doubted my memory of what happened when the lie started in the first place, but I am seeing something eerily similar play out now and this time I'm journaling, and sharing with a therapist and close friend so I won't have to doubt this reality.

Nobody here can tell you what to do, but now is a great time to put some boundaries in place.  Let her know that you'd like to return home, but your past and Brittany is not a topic of conversation any longer.  If she has additional questions, she can ask Brittany or her husband about it but you're done defending yourself. 

Defend yourself only with statements like, "I understand you're feeling jealous of Brittany and our past, but there's nothing I can say that I haven't already said.  This is very unfair and I will not continue to talk about it. I love you and want to be with you, but I can't keep defending myself over a relationship that ended years ago."

Also let her know that if she continues to bring it up, you'll be leaving for an unspecified period of time.  You're already staying with a friend, so a good gauge of when to come home is when this conversation stops.  Let her know that in plain words and without judgement.  If you want to focus on something, focus on her pain and why this is so traumatic for her.  That's a great topic to talk about because it focuses on the core problem- her insecurity with Brittany.

Again, judging you for your past is not fair and it's not anything you can defend...because it actually happened.  Stop defending yourself and turn your attention to ways to move past this.  You shouldn't lie or downplay things though, not on a topic she's fixated on and causing a rift in your relationship.  If you have to talk about Brittany to get past this, talk about what she means to you today.  Don't just talk about Brittany though, I'd say Brittany and Bob (or whatever your friend's name is that married her).  Focus on present tense and them as a couple.

[Blurr]

After talking with my therapist I met with my wife last night and told her that I didn't want to stay in the relationship any longer. That the long term damage it was doing to both of us was too much. That even if we both did hard work to get through this issue of my lie we would only be at the same place we were before and I was barely hanging on by a thread then.

She then proceeded to tell me all of the things I've basically ever wanted to hear. That she pushed back from therapy for so long in part because she knew her behaviors were problematic and she was afraid to face that. That she knows she has trouble with reactivity and is beginning to address that in therapy (she has previously stated her therapy was about dealing with some family situations and processing those). She says she read up on "Highly Sensitive Persons" and that fits her. She said she was sorry for all the times she lashed out at me and used threats of break up and divorce to get her way. She said that she sees herself and us being able to make big changes with the new marriage counselor helping us (she split on the first one after 5 or 6 sessions when the counselor suggested a temporary separation so I could get a mental break).

She brought up all the things that we love about each other like making silly jokes and annoying each other with british-isms after watching BBC crime dramas. She said she realizes my feelings of isolation about not being able to see friends and family nearly as often as I'd like are valid, and if I start making plans with just a little more notice she will be more open to helping them happen. It all sounded so reasonable. She said the timing was bad as there was this new big bad thing between us and I'm letting that stop me from seeing the bigger picture.

I know she believes all of these things. But I am so damaged from this relationship. I think I am doing the right thing but my gut is all twisted in knots. She's texting me exactly what I want to hear, trying to see if we can go on an e-bike ride with my parents this weekend like I've wanted to. I thought I would be on the detaching board after the conversation and maybe I should be, but I am so torn up now. I know she believes everything she is saying. Maybe she will be doing more meaningful therapy. Maybe it would be worth giving this another go. But when I go back to my journal and read the times I have been torn down for simple mistakes or simply being me I see how deeply I've been unhappy for at least the past year, and we've only been married 2 years.

[ForeverDad]

Of course she said all the things she thought you wanted to her.  You had been such an excellent "Whipping Boy" that she doesn't want to lose you.

Sadly, promises and words are cheap, what counts is the follow-through actions over extended lengths of time.  We wish for a better outcome but all too soon she almost surely will revert to her usual patterns.

Recovery is not an instantaneous event or a sudden "of course!" insight, recovery is a long process.

Maybe there's a slight chance this is the start of real recovery.  Maybe, but probably not.  Unless she is in progressing meaningful therapy?

Even if she does get better, the fact is you've been so damaged that the relationship simply can't be salvaged.

[Pook075]

Of course she said all the things she thought you wanted to her.  You had been such an excellent "Whipping Boy" that she doesn't want to lose you.

Sadly, promises and words are cheap, what counts is the follow-through actions over extended lengths of time.  We wish for a better outcome but all too soon she almost surely will revert to her usual patterns.

Recovery is not an instantaneous event or a sudden "of course!" insight, recovery is a long process.

Maybe there's a slight chance this is the start of real recovery.  Maybe, but probably not.  Unless she is in progressing meaningful therapy?

Even if she does get better, the fact is you've been so damaged that the relationship simply can't be salvaged.

I disagree completely.  I'm married (going thru a divorce) to my BPD wife and have a BPD young adult kid.  With the wife, she can't see the faults in her ways and there's no way for me to reverse that.  But with my kid, she had a lightbulb moment about a year ago and her entire life changed because of it.  My daughter is not "cured" or any such silly phrase, but she knows how to calm down, catch her breath, and think things through objectively before exploding. 

Today, for instance.  The dog was running from my brother.  He aggressively cornered the dog and almost got bit.  He then started hitting the dog and my kid patiently stepped between them and told my brother to walk away.  A year ago, my brother probably would have got stabbed and the rant would have lasted days on why my kid was justified for doing what she did.  It's a miraculous change because my kid woke up one morning and decided, I don't want to feel like this anymore...I'm going to make real effort to change.

Now, maybe my kid is 1 in 1,000 or 1 in a million...I can't answer that.  But I've seen real change and it did happen virtually overnight.  The key to the whole thing is the BPD person actually wanting change and working for it.

I can't tell you what to do here- you have to follow your conscience.  But you had an AMAZING conversation today and she's focused on your needs at the moment.  See what tomorrow brings before you make a snap judgement.  Everything that's been said still applies- make those boundaries, and focus on your own mental/physical health.  But consider marriage counseling since that will only make this all the more crystal clear.

There's a chance that she goes back on everything she just said in your next conversation.  But there's also a chance that this is real.  You made a boundary, walked away, and completely called her bluff.  Now she's showing her cards and for someone with BPD, that's a very hard thing to do.  At least finish playing out the hand...at least in my opinion.

I hope that helps!

[ForeverDad]

Pook, thanks for reminder to have a balanced view.  Sounds like your daughter taught herself to have a "wise mind" and mindfulness, something sometimes mentioned here but so glad your daughter latched on and took it to heart.  It's taught in Dialectical or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (DBT or CBT).  Think and ponder before reacting or overreacting.

[Pook075]

Pook, thanks for reminder to have a balanced view.  Sounds like your daughter taught herself to have a "wise mind" and mindfulness, something sometimes mentioned here but so glad your daughter latched on and took it to heart.  It's taught in Dialectical or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (DBT or CBT).  Think and ponder before reacting or overreacting.

My kid went through CBT in her late teens/early 20's and did some DBT as well, but she didn't see the point so obviously nothing changed.  Maybe 2 years ago she was back in CBT but still had a terrible attitude, I did this because that person was terrible to me and they deserved it.  It was hopeless and we basically gave up, she wasn't going to change until she found her personal rock bottom.

A little over a year ago, her and I were on a trip to see some relatives in South Florida.  We were sitting on the porch one evening and she said, "I was a terrible kid growing up and put my parents through hell.  They didn't deserve any of it and I wish I treated them differently."  I couldn't even respond because I was so dumbfounded- she's never apologized in her life and she had always told everyone I was the devil.

Maybe three or four days later, my heart completely changed due to those two sentences and I told her that I forgive her for absolutely everything...and I actually meant it.  We've been like best friends ever since and I've seen her thrive in life, handling situations completely different than she ever had before.  We talked it out a few months back and she said that she was so fed up with always feeling unstable and she realized that a lot of it was her own fault.  She said that she finally started listening to counselors and really applying what she learned in everyday life.

For my kid, her total transformation was maybe six weeks...but she really really wanted it.  She still gets sad at times, angry every now and then, and occasionally suicidal when something really bad happens.  The difference is that she doesn't explode anymore and she knows healthy ways to work past it, plus who to reach out to and when to seek treatment.  Overall she's a stable, productive member of society.

I can't stress this enough- my brother was trying to drag the dog outside today (my kid had just brought him in) and the dog got aggressive.  My brother slapped the dog and yelled at him, and my kid calmly stepped between them, grabbed my brother's wrist, and told him to go somewhere else while she handled the dog.  A year ago, she would have been screaming and throwing punches, trying to kill my brother.  This definitely would have been one of those in-house therapy situations because she would have completely lost it...she can't take any form of animal cruelty.  Yet she did the responsible adult thing and deescalated the situation.  We went to dinner and other than a few snide comments about my brother being a jerk (which I agreed with), it was a completely normal evening.

For any of us, our relationships can be saved if we:

1) Have enough patience to wait out the chaos and
2) Our spouse sees a real problem & wants to change

Most of us don't have enough patience for that (myself included), but that doesn't mean it can't happen.  I'm telling you, my kid was an absolute nightmare from 16 to 24...way worse than my wife ever was.  But she's pretty normal now at 25.  There is always hope.  The problem is that our spouses can figure stuff out a few days after splitting up or decades later...or never.

[Blurr]

Wow, so much to chew on here, and none of it makes things any easier. Of course nothing could make any of this easier considering the facts. It is a fact that we love and care about each other. It is also a fact that by any objective measure the relationship became emotionally and apparently physically abusive (the multiple times of blocking my exit, not keeping me awake on purpose when I wanted sleep). She has threatened divorce and break ups so many times to get her way, and it feels like if I reassess and stay in the marriage that I'd be doing the same thing. I know it isn't the same but part of me feels it would be manipulative. She also is still maintaining a hard line on any interactions with ex romantic interests. This includes not going to weddings, events for my goddaughter, etc. I worry it would be manipulative to set the boundary that I will not avoid important life events just because an ex might also be there. (I don't mind reasonably avoiding exes and don't have a particular desire to talk or hang out with them)

I also have realized that I really want to try for children. I think my wife would be good towards our child, probably even great. She works with children and is really good with them any time one is around. My worry is she won't be able to tone down her reactions to me enough for it to be a healthy environment for a child. I fear having a kid see her rage at me like she sometimes does would be so damaging. This glimpse of hope she's giving me is tough. Because it shows me she is capable of working on this and apparently that's the biggest sign of recovery. I'm 40, though, and wouldn't trust the change to be permanent for at least a couple years. And by then I worry it'll be too late. And I worry a pregnancy/adoption would be too much stress and the wheels might very well come off anyway. Or what if they wouldn't and I'm throwing away the exact life I've always wanted with a woman who has learned to battle her demons in a healthier way that doesn't have me filled with anxiety and panic?

[Cat Familiar]

Time will tell, but it sounds like you are skeptical that this may not be a sincere epiphany, but rather a manipulation to keep you on the line. Certainly either is possible, but odds are with BPD that the latter is more likely than the former.

Another issue is that children bring stress to any relationship and typically it is stress on steroids with a BPD partner. Then there’s the matter of genetics; it is very possible to inherit Cluster B disorders.

Lot to think about…

[Skip]

Just to stay with the original post...

• what would you do differently if you had a do-over the situation? I direct this to Blurr and everyone posting/reading?
• what would we do differently after getting caught/admitting the lie?

It's a good exercise to rethink this and i think it will help the current situation.

[Blurr]

What I would do differently when I began the lie? To me, this is obvious to me in retrospect. I would tell her that I understand she is uncomfortable about exes and that is okay. But I would tell her my friends are an important part of my life. I would remind her that I officiated my friends wedding because I cared about them and was excited for them as a couple. Any romantic feelings towards my ex are years in the rear view mirror. I would remind her that I loved her and only her and had never given her a reason to doubt that. I would tell her that I'm not asking her to be around this woman if she doesn't want to be, but I am not going to remove myself from my friend group/support network and that it is up to her if she's comfortable continuing the relationship on those terms and then let her sort through her emotions about it by herself. I didn't "know" back then that I was capable of walking away from a nasty situation. I thought I had to hear it out and believed her when she said walking away before she agreed it was okay is toxic.

What would I do differently when I was discovered in the lie? I am not sure, honestly. I came clean entirely and apologized and validated the best I know how. We discussed it in marriage counseling and I let her work through her emotions. She demanded I agree to never ever go to anything ex might be at again under any circumstances (weddings, life events, even if I didn't look at or talk to the ex) or she would divorce me. The marriage counselor supported this and didn't let the session end without me clearly saying yes or no. I said yes even though that didn't feel right to me knowing how the lie actually started and how unhappy being largely cut off from my friends has made me. I would like to hear thoughts on how I could have handled that part better.

[kells76]

Just to stay with the original post...

• what would you do differently if you had a do-over the situation? I direct this to Blurr and everyone posting/reading?
• what would we do differently after getting caught/admitting the lie?

It's a good exercise to rethink this and i think it will help the current situation.

A practical problem-solving thought about this moment came to mind:

What would I do differently when I was discovered in the lie? I am not sure, honestly. I came clean entirely and apologized and validated the best I know how. We discussed it in marriage counseling and I let her work through her emotions. She demanded I agree to never ever go to anything ex might be at again under any circumstances (weddings, life events, even if I didn't look at or talk to the ex) or she would divorce me. The marriage counselor supported this and didn't let the session end without me clearly saying yes or no. I said yes even though that didn't feel right to me knowing how the lie actually started and how unhappy being largely cut off from my friends has made me. I would like to hear thoughts on how I could have handled that part better.

My H and I have both been in situations where either the kids' mom (uBPD) &/or stepdad (uNPD), or the kids themselves, have pressured us for a decision or statement "right now". Nobody is bleeding or dying so it is not "real" urgency, but it can feel that way. In the moment, with that pressure, and the sense of urgency, and the negative emotions, it can be difficult to say things that we truly mean. Often we want the situation to end, so we may say "whatever it takes" to get through. If that was part of what was going on, I understand.

One thought is to practice in your mind ahead of time a stock phrase like "This is clearly really important [right now, to you, etc]. I want to give it the thought it deserves and not rush to any [decision, statement, position, etc]. Because it's that important to you, then it's that important to me. Let me think on that for a bit."

Sometimes there can be additional pressure even after you make that statement. One way to follow that up is to say something like "What I can do is think about it for 24 hours. I will get back to you with an answer [by email, in a text, over the phone, etc] by tomorrow at 5pm at the latest."

Sometimes, the "jiu jitsu" move of agreeing with the other speaker about the intense importance of the issue can help. You aren't arguing that "it isn't important and so I don't need to say anything right now". You are agreeing that it's important; in fact, it's so important that you won't rush to any shoddy conclusions. It can also sometimes help to provide that specific deadline.

A difficult part is staying both calm and firm. "This is what I'm able to do and this is when I will let you know".

High pressure communication with a pwBPD takes thought and planning that often aren't intuitive. You aren't alone in finding yourself in that kind of situation.

...

When you mention that the MC "supported this", do you mean that the MC "supported" your W making the statement about "never go to anything ex might be at again under any circumstances" or she would divorce me? Can you tell me a little more about how that looked? Just want to get a better handle on the dynamic. It sounds odd but there may be reasons why the MC made those moves.

[Blurr]

"When you mention that the MC "supported this", do you mean that the MC "supported" your W making the statement about "never go to anything ex might be at again under any circumstances" or she would divorce me? Can you tell me a little more about how that looked? Just want to get a better handle on the dynamic. It sounds odd but there may be reasons why the MC made those moves."

It was an online session and all 3 of us were logging in from different locations. As the session was wrapping up.

Wife: "Before we end this call, I need an answer. I will proceed with divorce if you don't agree that neither of us will ever be in a situation ever again that your ex might be at. No weddings, no first communions. No negotiating or asking for this again."

Me: "I need to think"

Wife: "No. Before this call ends I need to hear this"

Counselor: "She's giving you a choice now, can you accept this?"

Me, flustered and of course still feeling like garbage for my lie "okay. never again"

And then the session ended as I needed to get back to work and we'd gone overtime.

[ForeverDad]

I really like the thoughts by kells76.  Your spouse is of course a master manipulator, surely learned over many years.  So being "put on the spot" is not unexpected.  Been there, done that.

As for the counselor, it seems he was simply saying you could answer yes or no.  Maybe he could have phrased it differently or said you could take time to ponder your answer since the session was ending but spouse did say, "I will proceed with divorce if you don't agree..."  Rather strong words, especially since if you had time to think, this probably isn't the first or last ultimatum she would make.  As in, what about the next disagreement, will it always be cast as a repeating "divorce or comply" scenario?

[Blurr]

Those are some really good tips for buying myself time to think. I am not great under emotional pressure and pre-planning something to buy myself a reasonable amount of time seems like a good tool, regardless of where this relationship ultimately goes.

I do want to add that I it sounded like the counselor also agreed it was a reasonable thing to ask. They don't have the context that the way my wife pressured me into the lie was so similar to the way she pressured the new agreement from me. A false sense of urgency and an ultimatum of break up/divorce.

My prior partners, even if not great in every way, recognized that while I am a quick thinker about logistics/jokes/debates, I'm slower and more methodical with difficult emotional discussions. They would ask that I not push things off for too long, but 5 minutes or an hour to catch my breath has always been "allowed". Kells you are right that it is counter-intuitive and different skills are needed.

[Skip]

There is an interesting similarity between the first conversation and what happened with the marriage counselor’s office. And the contrast with your do-over. Something to think about.  

As a baseline, it often helps me to think of what we would do if our partner didn’t have BPD traits. Many relationships face the issue of whether to allow an ex into the environment of a new relationship. Certainly, this is the case when there are children from the prior relationship, or an employment situation. It can be very complicated.

• As a general statement, some people are OK with having an ex in the environment and some are dead set against it. Looking at some of the healthiest people I know, I have seen both these opinions and in the extreme and from pretty well balanced individuals.
• As a general statement, this can be a serious conflict issue when a couple has differing opinions/philosophies on this.
• As a general statement, situations can greatly change the calculus. Certainly, a spouse recovering from an affair or having a been the victim of an affair in a previous relationship is going to have heightened sensitivities.
• And lastly, as a general statement, therapists often recommend compromise, but will tend to support the marriage partner who is troubled by the ex in the environment.

So, can we apply any of this if BPD traits were not part of this?

For the first inquiry, I think the front end of your do-over makes sense (Rear view mirror. I love you. I won’t ask you to be around this woman if she doesn't want to be.

Following the event, her comments might suggest that finding a compromise with respect to making her more comfortable is reasonable. (I won’t plan any couples events unless you agree to it first. )

For the therapy event, I might think the calculus changed because of the “lie”. A first step could be to say (I get that the lie complicates this, so let’s not socialize with Brittany for six months and revisit it then. I won’t do anything that makes you uncomfortable, but I need you to please consider that Jake is a close friend).

So, can we apply any of this if BPD traits are part of this?

The thing that stands out most to me is addressing the threats and ultimatums and I agree with Kells and ForeverDads thoughts of "re-framing" and "punting" (my words) with a commitment to revisit later.

.	Re-framing - I don't think making divorce ultimatums are what we want in our marriage. I do, however, want to understand your feelings on this and respect them.

.	Punting - Let's table this topic for our next session as I would like to hear all of your thoughts and feelings about it. I won't arrange anything with Brittany or Jake in the meantime.

I also think we have to be careful not to confuse compromise with concession.

TLDR: Some of this in normal relationship conflict, some is BPD, it helps to understand both.

[Blurr]

Thanks Skip, that is really helpful. The situation would be potentially tough for any partner.

I have never asked to do a couples event or to talk to/hang out with an ex by myself. I was entirely upfront from our second date that we all got along so famously that I was a major part of the wedding between my friend and this particular ex.  I think my situation is a little weird where I have a big group of like 15 people that is practically a huge family so everybody is often invited to everything. Over the years I was often the host/instigator of the barbecues and celebrations and having that entire part of my life cut out has been tough. Extending that to include having to skip weddings and milestone birthday celebrations,etc. is a hard pill to swallow for me, obviously. My sister is part of this same friend group as well so it would mean after years and years of harmony demanding that she either exclude Brittany and Jake to things or know that I am not coming. Sorry for the rant about this part when I know it's not strictly a BPD type problem.
 

[ForeverDad]

I was entirely upfront from our second date that we all got along so famously that I was a major part of the wedding between my friend and this particular ex... Over the years I was often the host/instigator of the barbecues and celebrations and having that entire part of my life cut out has been tough. Extending that to include having to skip weddings and milestone birthday celebrations,etc. is a hard pill to swallow for me, obviously.

So you met your spouse about 3-4 years ago and married 2 years ago.  What changed from the time you met to now, that now she's made this demand?

My observation to others when I've commented on why things changed typically include one or more of these possibilities:

• She was more agreeable at first because she was in the heights of emotions of the new relationship, an "idolization" phase that has since worn off, so to speak. Time has passed and the thrill of the new relationship has settled into everyday life.
• As time progressed and you grew more obligated - now married - she feels more entitled to be demanding more than before.
• Something has triggered her to this higher level of conflict. It could be whether to have children, her becoming sensitized to prior relationships, etc.  (My ex was super-sensitive to anyone who I might have previously sought to have a relationship with - I had no girlfriends prior - yet she felt free to describe in detail those who had been interested in her. And my marriage did fail because we had a child.)