Hello and looking for community

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello,

Just discovered this site yesterday.

I'm a 50 year old married to a spouse that I believe may have BPD. We have two children, teenagers. Until recently, I assumed my spouse suffered from severe depression that resulted in volatility and anger, but I know realize that while there is likely depression, there is a lot more going on. As I read these posts, it is like looking in a mirror and seeing my twin.

My spouse suffered significant trauma as a child, and there is a significant history of mental illness in his family, including a mom with bipolar disorder. We have been together for almost 20 years. When we met, he seemed like a dream come true - super attentive, loving, supportive of me and my career. In many ways, he still is. However, at the time our second child was born (almost 14 years ago!), he suffered a major personal event that resulted in public humiliation and loss of his job (I don't actually think this was related to potential BPD). Since that time, things have spiraled. He has not worked since then (completely focused on kids). He is always angry, and has no sense of self-worth. Over the years, he has talked about suicide and threatens suicide if I leave him. He pushes our kids extra-ordinarily hard - too hard. He demands perfection, and his self is completely wrapped up in their success. If I suggest that it should not be so intense, he tells me I am lazy and neglectful towards our children, and that if they are not successful it is my fault. He blames me for his failures and inability to be successful - my choices, my spending of money etc - even though these are choices we made together. I have told the kids a million times he is a black and white thinker - he can't see the gray in anything. This applies to people (people can switch from good to bad in an instant) but also schools, places etc. We have moved our family in and out of places, schools etc based on these snap judgements. If someone becomes a "bad person" - meaning they do not do things the way he seems them - they become "lazy f-cks" and he can describe in violent detail the ways he would hurt them. He is an incredibly reckless driver - countless times I've been in a car crying because I'm so scared. He drinks too much. I've realized recently he is jealous of me - he has said things about my career and how everything has gone so well for me, and it is because of him - and he has sacrificed his own goals for mine.

We have tried couples counseling two times, and I recently brought him to a new therapist but he refuses to go back. He has never taken any medication. He refuses to go to an individual therapist even though I have given him names and numbers. He has not interest in any treatment or change currently ("I am not the problem"). I've told him countless times that he needs to prioritize his mental health and I can't keep living in this way.

What has finally pushed me to reason recently is the anger. His rage is scary and getting worse. He gets angry with me - which feels awful - but now is getting really angry with the kids. A child broke something this weekend (a cup) and he lost it - hitting the table, screaming. The child 'at fault' started crying and I rushed to console them. The older child started confronting him around the fact that it was just a cup, and he sent that child upstairs. When I tried to talk with him, he stormed out of the house. And what was amazing, was that when he left, the kids came downstairs and we were fine. It was like we were free - we cried, we talked about how it was no one's fault - but it honestly felt lighter. He came back later that night. The next day, he was doing something with the older child and something happened - my child says it was the dad's fault, the dad says it was the child's fault - with no bad outcome btw - and my spouse screamed in a parking lot that the child was "an asshole" and a "PLEASE READty kid". It makes me cry just to type it. And when the child told me about it, he said it wasn't a big deal because dad just gets angry all the time and acts like a toddler. That night when I asked my husband about it, he said that the child needs consequences for being so disrespectful and "maybe he would stop talking to him for awhile".

So I FINALLY got up the courage to tell him on Monday morning that I think we needed to separate and he needed to move out - that if he couldn't prioritize his mental health and seek treatment, then we couldn't keep going. I don't think he believed me, though I have never said this before. He didn't react really - just stared at me. And I think he just thought it wasn't true - but every day I've asked him about his plans. He didn't get mad until yesterday - he asked me if he could spend multiple thousands of dollars on a purchase, and I said that we needed to place in the context of additional expenses - by separating we need to buy another car, will need to rent another place. And this made him furious - I'm revoking what I've said before about spending the money, I don't get to control things, he'll show me etc. In the end he made the purchase anyway.

I know that separating is the right decision - that I must do this for my children. I know they will already have consequences of this, but it is the only way forward. But I am terrified. And what if he doesn't leave? How can I make him go? And if he does leave, he is going to crucify me and paint a horrible picture of me to the kids. He might try suicide and what if the kids blame me? My kids are everything to me, and I can't believe I've gotten myself in this situation.

Thanks for reading if you've made it this far. Putting it all down and sharing it (anonymously) helps me realize that I'm not crazy, that what is happening is real, and I need to keep going forward.

[Forward2023]

Hello,

Just discovered this site yesterday.

I'm a 50 year old married to a spouse that I believe may have BPD. We have two children, teenagers. Until recently, I assumed my spouse suffered from severe depression that resulted in volatility and anger, but I know realize that while there is likely depression, there is a lot more going on. As I read these posts, it is like looking in a mirror and seeing my twin.

My spouse suffered significant trauma as a child, and there is a significant history of mental illness in his family, including a mom with bipolar disorder. We have been together for almost 20 years. When we met, he seemed like a dream come true - super attentive, loving, supportive of me and my career. In many ways, he still is. However, at the time our second child was born (almost 14 years ago!), he suffered a major personal event that resulted in public humiliation and loss of his job (I don't actually think this was related to potential BPD). Since that time, things have spiraled. He has not worked since then (completely focused on kids). He is always angry, and has no sense of self-worth. Over the years, he has talked about suicide and threatens suicide if I leave him. He pushes our kids extra-ordinarily hard - too hard. He demands perfection, and his self is completely wrapped up in their success. If I suggest that it should not be so intense, he tells me I am lazy and neglectful towards our children, and that if they are not successful it is my fault. He blames me for his failures and inability to be successful - my choices, my spending of money etc - even though these are choices we made together. I have told the kids a million times he is a black and white thinker - he can't see the gray in anything. This applies to people (people can switch from good to bad in an instant) but also schools, places etc. We have moved our family in and out of places, schools etc based on these snap judgements. If someone becomes a "bad person" - meaning they do not do things the way he seems them - they become "lazy f-cks" and he can describe in violent detail the ways he would hurt them. He is an incredibly reckless driver - countless times I've been in a car crying because I'm so scared. He drinks too much. I've realized recently he is jealous of me - he has said things about my career and how everything has gone so well for me, and it is because of him - and he has sacrificed his own goals for mine.

We have tried couples counseling two times, and I recently brought him to a new therapist but he refuses to go back. He has never taken any medication. He refuses to go to an individual therapist even though I have given him names and numbers. He has not interest in any treatment or change currently ("I am not the problem"). I've told him countless times that he needs to prioritize his mental health and I can't keep living in this way.

What has finally pushed me to reason recently is the anger. His rage is scary and getting worse. He gets angry with me - which feels awful - but now is getting really angry with the kids. A child broke something this weekend (a cup) and he lost it - hitting the table, screaming. The child 'at fault' started crying and I rushed to console them. The older child started confronting him around the fact that it was just a cup, and he sent that child upstairs. When I tried to talk with him, he stormed out of the house. And what was amazing, was that when he left, the kids came downstairs and we were fine. It was like we were free - we cried, we talked about how it was no one's fault - but it honestly felt lighter. He came back later that night. The next day, he was doing something with the older child and something happened - my child says it was the dad's fault, the dad says it was the child's fault - with no bad outcome btw - and my spouse screamed in a parking lot that the child was "an asshole" and a "PLEASE READty kid". It makes me cry just to type it. And when the child told me about it, he said it wasn't a big deal because dad just gets angry all the time and acts like a toddler. That night when I asked my husband about it, he said that the child needs consequences for being so disrespectful and "maybe he would stop talking to him for awhile".

So I FINALLY got up the courage to tell him on Monday morning that I think we needed to separate and he needed to move out - that if he couldn't prioritize his mental health and seek treatment, then we couldn't keep going. I don't think he believed me, though I have never said this before. He didn't react really - just stared at me. And I think he just thought it wasn't true - but every day I've asked him about his plans. He didn't get mad until yesterday - he asked me if he could spend multiple thousands of dollars on a purchase, and I said that we needed to place in the context of additional expenses - by separating we need to buy another car, will need to rent another place. And this made him furious - I'm revoking what I've said before about spending the money, I don't get to control things, he'll show me etc. In the end he made the purchase anyway.

I know that separating is the right decision - that I must do this for my children. I know they will already have consequences of this, but it is the only way forward. But I am terrified. And what if he doesn't leave? How can I make him go? And if he does leave, he is going to crucify me and paint a horrible picture of me to the kids. He might try suicide and what if the kids blame me? My kids are everything to me, and I can't believe I've gotten myself in this situation.

Thanks for reading if you've made it this far. Putting it all down and sharing it (anonymously) helps me realize that I'm not crazy, that what is happening is real, and I need to keep going forward.

[Blurr]

Hey,

Wow, that sounds really tough. I'm glad you found this place, it has been really helpful for me the last few months. I am sure others with more experience will chime in but sounds like you have been navigating those issues as best you could. I imagine it was quite scary to tell your spouse things you know they really, really didn't want to hear. I have some experience myself with that part at least. You don't sound even the least bit crazy to me.

[Cat Familiar]

Only have a minute to respond, but one thing to consider is that your children are teenagers and they comprehend that something is not right with their father.

Most people with personality disorders are very reluctant to enter into counseling. Your therapy dollars would be best spent on you and your children.

In the meantime, is there a way that you can protect your finances from being raided by him? I presume you’re the breadwinner. Many BPD spouses will go on massive spending sprees when they feel like the ground underneath their relationship is shifting. (My ex did and I had to pay off massive credit card bills that he ran up after we separated.)

Would be good to check with an attorney at this point to protect yourself, regardless of what decision you make in the future.

Best wishes,  Cat

[jaded7]

Hello,

Just discovered this site yesterday.

I'm a 50 year old married to a spouse that I believe may have BPD. We have two children, teenagers. Until recently, I assumed my spouse suffered from severe depression that resulted in volatility and anger, but I know realize that while there is likely depression, there is a lot more going on. As I read these posts, it is like looking in a mirror and seeing my twin.

My spouse suffered significant trauma as a child, and there is a significant history of mental illness in his family, including a mom with bipolar disorder. We have been together for almost 20 years. When we met, he seemed like a dream come true - super attentive, loving, supportive of me and my career. In many ways, he still is. However, at the time our second child was born (almost 14 years ago!), he suffered a major personal event that resulted in public humiliation and loss of his job (I don't actually think this was related to potential BPD). Since that time, things have spiraled. He has not worked since then (completely focused on kids). He is always angry, and has no sense of self-worth. Over the years, he has talked about suicide and threatens suicide if I leave him. He pushes our kids extra-ordinarily hard - too hard. He demands perfection, and his self is completely wrapped up in their success. If I suggest that it should not be so intense, he tells me I am lazy and neglectful towards our children, and that if they are not successful it is my fault. He blames me for his failures and inability to be successful - my choices, my spending of money etc - even though these are choices we made together. I have told the kids a million times he is a black and white thinker - he can't see the gray in anything. This applies to people (people can switch from good to bad in an instant) but also schools, places etc. We have moved our family in and out of places, schools etc based on these snap judgements. If someone becomes a "bad person" - meaning they do not do things the way he seems them - they become "lazy f-cks" and he can describe in violent detail the ways he would hurt them. He is an incredibly reckless driver - countless times I've been in a car crying because I'm so scared. He drinks too much. I've realized recently he is jealous of me - he has said things about my career and how everything has gone so well for me, and it is because of him - and he has sacrificed his own goals for mine.

We have tried couples counseling two times, and I recently brought him to a new therapist but he refuses to go back. He has never taken any medication. He refuses to go to an individual therapist even though I have given him names and numbers. He has not interest in any treatment or change currently ("I am not the problem"). I've told him countless times that he needs to prioritize his mental health and I can't keep living in this way.

What has finally pushed me to reason recently is the anger. His rage is scary and getting worse. He gets angry with me - which feels awful - but now is getting really angry with the kids. A child broke something this weekend (a cup) and he lost it - hitting the table, screaming. The child 'at fault' started crying and I rushed to console them. The older child started confronting him around the fact that it was just a cup, and he sent that child upstairs. When I tried to talk with him, he stormed out of the house. And what was amazing, was that when he left, the kids came downstairs and we were fine. It was like we were free - we cried, we talked about how it was no one's fault - but it honestly felt lighter. He came back later that night. The next day, he was doing something with the older child and something happened - my child says it was the dad's fault, the dad says it was the child's fault - with no bad outcome btw - and my spouse screamed in a parking lot that the child was "an asshole" and a "PLEASE READty kid". It makes me cry just to type it. And when the child told me about it, he said it wasn't a big deal because dad just gets angry all the time and acts like a toddler. That night when I asked my husband about it, he said that the child needs consequences for being so disrespectful and "maybe he would stop talking to him for awhile".

So I FINALLY got up the courage to tell him on Monday morning that I think we needed to separate and he needed to move out - that if he couldn't prioritize his mental health and seek treatment, then we couldn't keep going. I don't think he believed me, though I have never said this before. He didn't react really - just stared at me. And I think he just thought it wasn't true - but every day I've asked him about his plans. He didn't get mad until yesterday - he asked me if he could spend multiple thousands of dollars on a purchase, and I said that we needed to place in the context of additional expenses - by separating we need to buy another car, will need to rent another place. And this made him furious - I'm revoking what I've said before about spending the money, I don't get to control things, he'll show me etc. In the end he made the purchase anyway.

I know that separating is the right decision - that I must do this for my children. I know they will already have consequences of this, but it is the only way forward. But I am terrified. And what if he doesn't leave? How can. Imake him go? And if he does leave, he is going to crucify me and paint a horrible picture of me to the kids. He might try suicide and what if the kids blame me? My kids are everything to me, and I can't believe I've gotten myself in this situation.

Thanks for reading if you've made it this far. Putting it all down and sharing it (anonymously) helps me realize that I'm not crazy, that what is happening is real, and I need to keep going forward.

Just wanted to share that this was a really powerful summary and thank you for typing it out. Sometimes just writing things out can bring real clarity. Maybe even shock when we re-read what we've written. I know I've had that experience looking back at things I've posted here.

I'm not married nor divorced, so I can't contribute anything in that respect. But I can acknowledge how painful and confusing this all is. And I can share that you seem like a very thoughtful and kind person, which may be of help during this difficult time.

Your husband experienced trauma as a child, and it seems a significant trauma in his adult/working life that resulted in loss of job and public humiliation. That is really heavy.

I hope you are able to find some really good support here and answers.

[ForeverDad]

My spouse suffered significant trauma as a child, and there is a significant history of mental illness in his family, including a mom with bipolar disorder.

In decades past Borderline was considered untreatable, until Marsha Linehan developed Dialectical or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (DBT or CBT). In those days insurance denied BPD therapy.  So many therapists instead told their patients it was Bipolar, which often meds helped balance the chemical imbalances.  However, though Borderline has similar symptoms, meds only moderate BPD, meaningful therapy applied diligently is the answer.

I have told the kids a million times he is a black and white thinker - he can't see the gray in anything. This applies to people (people can switch from good to bad in an instant) but also schools, places etc. We have moved our family in and out of places, schools etc based on these snap judgements.

When I tried to talk with him, he stormed out of the house. And what was amazing, was that when he left, the kids came downstairs and we were fine. It was like we were free - we cried, we talked about how it was no one's fault - but it honestly felt lighter.

And if he does leave, he is going to crucify me and paint a horrible picture of me to the kids. He might try suicide and what if the kids blame me?

If he hasn't actually committed suicide by now, after years of threats, then likely they were meant to control and manipulate you.  One thing mentioned here is that suicide threats are best handled by emergency responders who are trained in handling such matters.

Notice that when he stormed out, you and the kids were relieved and acting normally.  The kids are already teens and in a few years they'll be adults, already they're standing up for themselves.  It is very unlikely he could turn them against you.

We have many tools and skills for you to ponder that you could share with the children.
Tools & Skills Workshops board

So I FINALLY got up the courage to tell him that I think we needed to separate and he needed to move out - that if he couldn't prioritize his mental health and seek treatment, then we couldn't keep going.

That is a new Boundary for you.  There are two Boundaries topics listed in the link above.  Understand that people with BPD (pwBPD) resist boundaries, so therefore your boundaries are for YOU, in other words, how you will respond when one of your boundaries is sabotaged.  Ponder that.

Meanwhile counseling is appropriate for those who are suffering and would appreciate it — you and the teens.  Probably best not to tell your spouse, just do it without announcements.

he asked me if he could spend multiple thousands of dollars on a purchase, and I said that we needed to place in the context of additional expenses - by separating we need to buy another car, will need to rent another place. And this made him furious - I'm revoking what I've said before about spending the money, I don't get to control things, he'll show me etc. In the end he made the purchase anyway.

Extinction Bursts are demands that we return to our old behaviors of accommodating, appeasing and soothing the beast so the person can be in a dysfunctional comfort zone.  As you know, appeasing is not a good long term strategy.

By the way, you are allowed to reconsider prior decisions.  If you decide to "revoke" something based on new information, poor behavior, etc then do it.

These are some practical financial comments, some may work depending on your situation.

Since you are the major source of income, do not make any more joint purchases of vehicles, residences, mortgages, leases, etc.  Joint ownership makes later separation more difficult and vulnerable to sabotage and delays.

With him having no income, how was he able to unilaterally make a huge purchase?  (That's a rhetorical question, I ask merely to highlight how your perceptions and strategies will need adjustment.)  In other words, determine what to change so you're less exposed to financial sabotage.  After all, you can't depend on your spouse's actions being responsible ones.

Did he make the purchase from a joint bank account?  Ponder keeping most of your income in a personal account and only apportioning out smaller amounts as the joint account needs funding.

Did he make the purchase from a joint credit account?
Probably best to pay it off and immediately thereafter close it.  Henceforth, use personal credit accounts.  Probably you can find a company that will allow you as account holder to set a limit on what the card holder can charge.

And if spouse complains that's too low for a month of charges, then maybe you can make multiple payments during each month as needed.  The point is that you need  some semblance of financial controls in place, whichever work for your family.

I know that separating is the right decision - that I must do this for my children. I know they will already have consequences of this, but it is the only way forward. But I am terrified. And what if he doesn't leave? How can I make him go?  My kids are everything to me, and I can't believe I've gotten myself in this situation.

As Cat Familiar wrote, now is the time to seek consultations with a few family law attorneys and listen to the assortment of experience and potential strategies.  They will know how to structure and enforce a separation or divorce.  Do this quietly.  (All this is done confidentially until the time is right to proceed with such plans.)  You have a right to privacy and confidentiality, do not share any of this with your spouse until whichever lawyer you choose says what and when to say it.  Sorry, but sharing too much too soon can enable your spouse to sabotage you.

The best guidebook is William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder which is also a topic discussed on our Book Reviews board.  It describes many of the gotchas, traps and common pitfalls we can encounter as we enter the bizarro legal world of finance, custody and parenting issues.

[Forward2023]

Thank you for reading and for these responses. It feels more supportive than one would imagine an anonymous support group would.
I received similar advice from my therapist today - to get my plans in order but to try to keep things very low-key and under the radar. And to document everything. And to make sure that I identify a lawyer who is experienced in these specific types of situations, ie high conflict with ongoing mental illness. I'll keep you updated, and thank you.

[FarDrop77]

I just want to say welcome.  I'm still so amazed at how similar everyone's story is.  Your husband sounds much like my wife when she splits.  And you know something is up when someone refuses therapy ... I mean if you really have no issues, therapy is at worst a kind of boring way to spend an hour on a nice couch.  Anyway my own therapist has recommended I give myself some time and space to get my head in a better place before committing to divorce.  I hope I can muster as much courage as you have when the time comes.

[livednlearned]

Joining in the welcome party here 

Glad you found the site and are giving yourself the space to share what's going on. It really does help.

I agree with others that counseling for yourself and the kids will be so important in the coming months and years. Their dad may have multiple mental illnesses and substance abuse unfortunately exaggerates and complicates everything. If divorce is likely the conflict may get weirder and stranger and potentially more dangerous (suicidal ideation, for one) given the trajectory he is on. Have the kids overheard him threatening suicide? They may need help processing that alone.

If you can, try to get therapy in place before you leave because depending on where you live it can be hard to do after divorce is initiated.

Your ex sounds very similar to mine, except mine was employed. The wheels came off as my career took off and I started to more openly protect our son, which in retrospect I wish I did sooner and with more conviction. Although, looking back I see now he was not a stable personality even before things got worse. I grew up with emotional chaos and married more of it. It's all I knew.

How do you think your H will respond if you suggest therapy for the kids?

[Pook075]

Welcome to the site.  I am very sorry for what you're going through and I don't have a lot to add, other than my story played out very similar.  I am also 50 and about a year out from separation, and I can tell you that there is light at the end of the tunnel if that's how all of this plays out.  It took me months to fully realize how bad things were since I had accepted and became accustomed to the so many versions of abuse and neglect...it was just regular daily life where I accepted far too much as normal.  I can now see that I was living as a mere shell of who I am to placate bad behavior.

Your next few months will be challenging to say the least, and I hope you lean on our community as much as possible for guidance and support.  Regardless of what happens, you will get through this!  Good luck!

[Forward2023]

Thanks for the continuing words of encouragement and advice, and for the book recommendations. I started with "Splitting" (and realized I already made the first mistake of mentioning the possibility of a personality disorder to my husband last week), and am planning on Walking on Eggshells next.

I am in therapy (which I think is the only reason that I've gotten the courage to same some of these out loud, to myself and to my spouse).

Thankfully my older child is also in therapy. This all came to a head several months ago because we had arranged neuropsych testing for them (ADHD). As a part of that process, depression was identified, and a therapist was strongly recommended for them. This led me to begin to appreciate the impact that our house and family life is having on them, and I was able to use this evaluation as an excuse to start therapy for them  - though at this point my spouse says that I am "wasting all of our money by spending it on therapy". My younger child is not yet in therapy, and there would definitely be extremely strong push back if I suggested it now, so I will wait for the time being - in the interest of laying low while I try to get my ducks in a row.

I think of myself as a strong person, and I keep wondering how I ended up in this situation. I think I confused what being strong meant, and I believed that the "strong" thing to do was to stay. Now I realize that the strong thing to do might be to leave.

I find myself continually doubting whether I am the unreasonable one or whether I am making the right decision. I know that the story will be spun that I am kicking him out of the house for no reason, that I am making all the decisions and these decisions are ruining his life, that it came out of the blue, and that it is completely unjustified and unfair. And I find myself continually needing to remind myself that people ask for separations even in the absence of abuse - I would not be "wrong" or "evil" for asking for a separation "just" on the basis of the fact that I'm unhappy, scared, and lonely, and in a marriage that my spouse doesn't want to work to improve. But it is really hard - I find myself weakening and questioning my judgement and my assessment of the situation all the time on the inside.

[Cat Familiar]

Bottom line—being in a relationship with a person with BPD (pwBPD) is  HARD!

And yes, should you choose to leave, you will be painted black, as with all pwBPD, their world view is that they are the *victim*, regardless of the objective truth. And they have little to no capacity to accept responsibility for their part in the dysfunctional relationship.

That you are a strong person, made you an ideal partner for a mate who has a marked inability for self regulation, discipline, and acceptance of their role as an adult in society.

That strength will see you through the character attacks, the whining, the *poor me* appeals to your sympathies, the unkindness, the retribution, etc. You will come out of it a stronger, more resilient person, with a more finely attuned radar to mental illness. I know I did.

[ForeverDad]

Thankfully my older child is also in therapy... This led me to begin to appreciate the impact that our house and family life is having on them, and I was able to use this evaluation as an excuse to start therapy for them  - though at this point my spouse says that I am "wasting all of our money by spending it on therapy". My younger child is not yet in therapy, and there would definitely be extremely strong push back if I suggested it now, so I will wait for the time being - in the interest of laying low while I try to get my ducks in a row.

Is this the same spouse who just spent $$$ on something he wanted but you told him it wasn't affordable now?

Interpreted... my spouse says that I am "wasting all of our her money by spending it on therapy" since you are the income earner.  Yes, from one perspective it is family money, but he has shown financial irresponsibility by his own actions.

I find myself continually doubting whether I am the unreasonable one or whether I am making the right decision. I know that the story will be spun that I am kicking him out of the house for no reason, that I am making all the decisions and these decisions are ruining his life, that it came out of the blue, and that it is completely unjustified and unfair. And I find myself continually needing to remind myself that people ask for separations even in the absence of abuse - I would not be "wrong" or "evil" for asking for a separation "just" on the basis of the fact that I'm unhappy, scared, and lonely, and in a marriage that my spouse doesn't want to work to improve. But it is really hard - I find myself weakening and questioning my judgement and my assessment of the situation all the time on the inside.

The first steps on a better path are the hardest ones, it's hard to break from the prior comfort (discomfort) zone.  But the more steps you take toward a better life, the less difficult it will become.

As for your prior concept of strength seen as "staying"... note the "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one" perspective.

And for the children to see this discord all the time isn't good for them even if it's not directed at them.  Children learn by example.  If this dysfunctional example is their home life growing up, what life choices will they make seeking relationships when they're grown and gone?

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

The mega-dollar question is whether he will change for the better.  Stripping away all the smaller issues, what you choose to do with the marriage hinges on whether he will change.  Thus far he hasn't and that's not a good sign.  You've surely tried and tried yet it is so hard for a disordered person to get past the emotional baggage of the relationship to really listen and respond.  Would he see a counselor or therapist — a neutral professional with no emotional ties that may be able to help — and let go his Denial and Blaming, diligently apply the therapy in his life and thinking and do so over the long term?  Frankly, you've done what you can in the relationship, if he won't respond to therapy then you have to decide your future knowing he won't improve.

[livednlearned]

I was able to get my son into therapy but I also went to the school's family specialist and laid out what was happening. I wanted someone at the school to have my son's back -- the strain and stress in our families often shows up in peer relationships, and often at school. Our school had good people working there and I'm so grateful they took the time to keep an eye on S11 and give him space to manage his feelings. In elementary school the family specialist gave him a special pass he could use any time to come to her cozy office and just chill, no questions asked. I think this helped him deal with feeling too overwhelmed when he felt flooded.

The family specialist in middle school asked the guidance counselor to keep an eye out for S11, and he went ahead and established a wonderful relationship with S11 that my son remembers fondly more than a decade later. The GC would go to S11's classroom under the pretense of proctoring an academic test (one of his duties) and then they would hang out together and chat. A few times S11 had issues with peers and teachers that could've blown up but the therapeutic side of the school understood what was going on and really helped.

Might be helpful to check out how things work at your kids' school to see how you feel about them, and whether they can offer any support.

[Forward2023]

This feels like such a petty thing - and previously I would have excused it or felt like it was my fault - but today I'm going to share it...

Yesterday I went to the grocery store, and got a bunch of items that I thought we would need for the week. I didn't discuss it with my husband (who normally does the grocery shopping) but things are a bit weird given our current situation and he was out of the house for most of the day. I bought two half-gallons of our usual milk and felt annoyed with myself when I got home and realized we already had two half-gallons of milk. But I put it all in the fridge and forgot about it.

This morning, my husband sent me a picture of the 4 half-gallon containers of milk and said "I've been trying to get rid of all the extra milk for months now". There are many reasons why this statement isn't true - but it doesn't matter - and I just tried to be as "yellow rock" as possible and replied "I didn't realize that, and accidently bought more at the store yesterday. If it is in the way, we can put some downstairs." (We have an extra fridge, largely empty except for some drinks, in the basement).

But when I went down stairs later this morning, I saw he had dumped out and thrown away the milk I bought yesterday. My first thought was "maybe I bought the wrong kind of milk" - which goes to show how mixed up my mind is at the moment. But I didn't buy the wrong kind of milk - I bought the same milk we always buy. And I now realize that I shouldn't excuse this or write off this behavior in my head  - that this is actually abnormal behavior, right? It doesn't make any sense that he would empty them out and recycle the containers, vs putting them downstairs?

It feels so stupid, but it also just doesn't make sense.

[ForeverDad]

It feels like there's a bit of spitefulness?  After all, the milk you bought would have had the longest sell-by date, right?  A normal person would, if something had to be disposed, dump the oldest milk.

If not conscious spite, which is certainly possible, then likely his perceptions told him yours was the excess milk and so they were the containers that had to go, even if you'd told him there was space elsewhere.

[FarDrop77]

But when I went down stairs later this morning, I saw he had dumped out and thrown away the milk I bought yesterday. My first thought was "maybe I bought the wrong kind of milk" - which goes to show how mixed up my mind is at the moment. But I didn't buy the wrong kind of milk - I bought the same milk we always buy. And I now realize that I shouldn't excuse this or write off this behavior in my head  - that this is actually abnormal behavior, right? It doesn't make any sense that he would empty them out and recycle the containers, vs putting them downstairs?

It feels so stupid, but it also just doesn't make sense.

Throwing stuff out seems to be a thing my wife does in the midst of her tantrums, often accompanied by nonsensical reasoning like this.  After a few days she might think of a less crazy reason and talk about it as if that was the reason all along; she can never just admit she lost her temper.

[jaded7]

I think of myself as a strong person, and I keep wondering how I ended up in this situation. I think I confused what being strong meant, and I believed that the "strong" thing to do was to stay. Now I realize that the strong thing to do might be to leave.

I find myself continually doubting whether I am the unreasonable one or whether I am making the right decision. I know that the story will be spun that I am kicking him out of the house for no reason, that I am making all the decisions and these decisions are ruining his life, that it came out of the blue, and that it is completely unjustified and unfair. And I find myself continually needing to remind myself that people ask for separations even in the absence of abuse - I would not be "wrong" or "evil" for asking for a separation "just" on the basis of the fact that I'm unhappy, scared, and lonely, and in a marriage that my spouse doesn't want to work to improve. But it is really hard - I find myself weakening and questioning my judgement and my assessment of the situation all the time on the inside.

You are so insightful here about wondering how you ended up in the situation and confusing what 'strong' means. I have had the very same thoughts about myself.

For me, 'strong' meant

- not getting upset about the name calling and belittling, because she didn't mean it, she's just upset about something, the only reason she gets this mad is because she loves me

-not getting hurt by the ignoring of phone calls, voice messages, texts, because a 'strong' person does not take these things personally and doesn't need his partner to respond, that would be too needy

-not being hurt when she left for the weekend to her families beach house with friends, but didn't invite me, because maybe she thought I was too busy at work, she deserves to do what she wants, I shouldn't ask why I wasn't invited because that would be needy and controlling

-not speaking up when she 'forgot' plans we made or flat out just called and cancelled them at the last second (after lecturing me about "cancelling plans and ruining and entire summer" which 100% never happened, I never cancelled anything), because that would be controlling of me and needy

...and many others more

And yes, we all have likely experienced the fear of the story they are telling others about us. It seems to be a very common thing that pwBPD make up these stories about us or about the situation, often telling us that story as if we didn't see and experience what happened.

I remember early in my relationship with my ex saying to her 'you seem to have stories in your head about me that aren't true, then you react to those stories'. It felt so strange to have to defend myself against things she made up about me. I now recognize this as gaslighting.

[livednlearned]

Somewhere along the line many of us mixed up what it meant to have boundaries. Somehow we learned that having porous boundaries, allowing people to be abusive towards us, was a sign of strength.

Yet the reverse is true. Many of us fear losing someone so we tolerate abuse or lack of boundaries in order to maintain the relationship. Not fear as in fear of abandonment, fear as in losing the relationship. For some, there is a control element and unrealistic expectations that go back to childhood.

As hard as it is for pwBPD to make changes to their core personality, there is truth to this being challenging for people with codependent traits too.

Right-sizing guilt, asserting boundaries, prioritizing self care and self-respect -- these are not easy things to do when you've been brought up to do the complete opposite.

[Cat Familiar]

I want to echo livednlearned on boundaries. I, too, thought “I can handle it,” while observing the weakness and dysfunction with my ex. Heck, I’ve done that in my current relationship, though my husband is much more emotionally healthy and far less afflicted than my ex.

But is that really strength? Or rather is it merely “keeping the peace,” “not ruffling feathers,” AKA accommodating?

Now I assert my *strength* by challenging misbegotten assumptions, using skills I’ve learned here. (See Tools at the top of this page.)

At first I had to learn not to be invalidating. Once I became better at not doing that, then I was free to communicate more fully and openly. Sure, I “step in it” now and then, but I have the skills to get myself extracted from the  before it becomes a huge mess.

Meanwhile I say what I think and mean what I say, and am far more respected by my partner. Boundaries work. But you have to be consistent about what you are willing to experience. Boundaries are solely about YOU, not about controlling your partner’s thinking, feeling or behavior.

[Forward2023]

These are very thought provoking comments. Thank you.

It leaves me to reflect on how my behavior during and after this major event in 2010-2013 (that resulted in partners loss of job / public humiliation) may have resulted in porous boundaries on my part. I think that I so wanted to be supportive - to help see him through - that perhaps I started tolerating bad behavior in a way that I would not have supported prior to that trauma. I'm sure a part of me was worried that I would lose him, and lose our relationship as a result of these events (and I clearly did, just not in the way I thought). And while these events were very traumatic for him, it was undoubtedly also traumatic for me - at the time it felt like the hardest thing I had ever done, but I am quite sure that "now" will take the top spot.

This makes me wonder whether my own struggles to deal with this event, combined with my earnest desire to be supportive and "save him", resulted in porous boundaries that created the perfect environment for all of these behaviors to blossom and escalate. It is an interesting way to think about it.

[Forward2023]

How do people deal with the guilt?

As my spouse and I have 'talked' about separating this week - there are some phrases that keep running through my head. "I've never heard of the primary breadwinner kicking the unemployed spouse out of the house, but if that is how it is going to be, then so be it". I know that is the story he believes - and even though I see it differently, it still breaks my heart.

And today he asked me "If, at this point, is there something else other than separation that you want to try?" And the answer is no, there is nothing else I want to try. But why isn't he asking the question of "what do you want me to try? what do you want me to do? what can I do?". And I've told him over and over again, we can't stay together if he doesn't prioritize his mental health, and I just don't understand why he can't do it.

[Tangled mangled]

The guilt is crippling!
Your experience of male bpd is similar to mine.
He was ‘very’ supportive of me training for a career, his support was quickly turning into idol worship and my success triggered his insecurities. It fell sickly at the end- the way he quietly observed my every move that sent chills down my spine . He took credit for every little effort I was making and in the last year he made ab180 degrees turning that into sabotage.

When I was still living together and after I had left I felt so guilty for Leaving this child behind that I had cared for, validated, encouraged and supported for 10 years. Mine was happy to work everyday day of the week as long as it meant I could not work, he used work to avoid his role/ duties as a parent while demanding or competing for attention with my children.
Whenever feelings of guilt came up I often countered that with memories of some of the horrible things he had said and done and reminded myself of my own toxic childhood and how I wished my parents had a divorce.

The conflict and chaos in my marriage has had a negative impact on my children, boys under 10yrs old . 5 months after literally fleeing my home with my children, they are now on the mend. The peace is indescribable!

Keep going! The guilt will come and go. The more you share what’s happened ( in forum’s like this and with people who understand) the more you will let go of the guilt and shame that’s kept you stuck.

[Forward2023]

The guilt is crippling!
Your experience of male bpd is similar to mine.
He was ‘very’ supportive of me training for a career, his support was quickly turning into idol worship and my success triggered his insecurities. It fell sickly at the end- the way he quietly observed my every move that sent chills down my spine . He took credit for every little effort I was making and in the last year he made ab180 degrees turning that into sabotage.

When I was still living together and after I had left I felt so guilty for Leaving this child behind that I had cared for, validated, encouraged and supported for 10 years. Mine was happy to work everyday day of the week as long as it meant I could not work, he used work to avoid his role/ duties as a parent while demanding or competing for attention with my children.
Whenever feelings of guilt came up I often countered that with memories of some of the horrible things he had said and done and reminded myself of my own toxic childhood and how I wished my parents had a divorce.

The conflict and chaos in my marriage has had a negative impact on my children, boys under 10yrs old . 5 months after literally fleeing my home with my children, they are now on the mend. The peace is indescribable!

Keep going! The guilt will come and go. The more you share what’s happened ( in forum’s like this and with people who understand) the more you will let go of the guilt and shame that’s kept you stuck.

Thank you

[Cat Familiar]

I think a similar situation for many of us here is feeling sorry for our partners. They were so obviously abused in the past, had horrible childhoods, were betrayed, physically assaulted, dumped repeatedly by romantic partners, taken advantage of, had job losses, humiliation, sexually abused…whatever…fill in the blank.

Certainly there are some legitimate complaints here. The difference is that emotionally healthy people strive to recover from life’s setbacks, while people with BPD cling to their victimhood.

In your situation, your husband hasn’t worked for 14 years of the relationship. One way to look at this is that regardless of the excuses, and I’m sure he has many, for not reentering the workforce, he is simply not carrying his share of the load. Yeah, he did some childcare, but his influence, though having high expectations of the children, also sounds fraught.

Some partners might have accused him of “not being a man,” “not being responsible,” “not taking care of his family” or whatever. Obviously we know with pwBPD that this approach can go all matter of sideways, and likely you never went down that road.

You probably thought that you could carry the burden all by yourself. After all, you’re strong, you can deal with whatever comes up. (Been there, done that with a former spouse who refused to get a job, and didn’t care how his irresponsibility affected me.)

But looking at this situation from the 10,000 foot level, particularly with the value set of our parents and grandparents generation—there would be little sympathy for a man who sponged off his wife for years if he were able bodied or able minded to find suitable employment where he could contribute to the welfare of his family.

Getting back to the *guilt* question. Yes, I felt guilty when I divorced my ex. But that guilt soon vanished when he declared in legal filings that he was physically incapacitated and asked for alimony in addition to making claims about property which was solely mine. I produced photos of him recently moving big boulders in the garden (making garden beds being a hobby of his) as well as marching in a parade, and had to dig up documentation showing that the property he claimed an interest in was mine, and mine alone.

I had feared that he would sink, not swim, without my support. But what did he do, he found another woman to sponge off of. He’s apparently alive and well, according to rumor, and I still get an occasional creditor calling me, looking for him about some bill he hasn’t paid.