need some advice about how or whether to participate in family therapy

[4love]

I haven't posted in quite awhile. To refresh- my 26 bpd dd is in a residential program for young women.  This follows years of self harm, failure to launch independently and many attempts at different interventions. In this program- she is now on therapist #4 ( she has been there since April). Therapist #1 had very firm boundaries about personal relationships with clients and a no nonsense approach. My daughter requested a different therapist as she felt she needed a more nurturing person. We were supposed to meet with Therapist #2 at an in person Family Education event but the therapist was out sick. We ended up seeing Therapist #3 for a session then because my daughter was in crisis- partly from things happening in the program and partly because of "trauma" from the past concerning me. To be clear the trauma is from being yelled at and being judged. We had one session with Therapist #2 where nothing really occurred it was basically a meet and greet.  Then therapist #2 quit. And today was our first session with therapist #4 who dd is supposed to have for the rest of her involvement in the program. Therapist #3 was the only one who played things equally - meaning we both got to bring up things and she called my daughter out- but also held my feet to the fire.  My daughter didn't want that therapist because she was more of a "fun person to hang out with and not nurturing." Today we had the first session with #3 and I am not sure I am comfortable continuing. The approach felt very much like setting me up to accept "blame".  The therapist said she liked to just put things out on the table but her approach was not direct at all- it felt like a set up. I have just begun a family connections program and the last lesson included the topic of "blame" and importance of not blaming. It felt like I was the target of this session- I am not sure how anything done was supposed to improve our connection and communication. I did say that I often felt my dd wanted approval and that approval and acceptance were 2 different things. The therapist asked my dd if she wanted her parents acceptance.- dd response- I don't need their acceptance- it doesn't matter, only the acceptance of my friends matters. Of course her only friends- the therapist who just quit, and the night staff. I have apologized and been accountable for yelling and for withdrawing and for judging but I think I have committed the sin of trying to explain. Therapist #3 asked if I had received the "parent guidelines"- I haven't but it is clear I am apparently not doing this right. Is this "family therapy" or therapy just for my daughter?

I started seeing a therapist again-I am co-dependent and wanted to make sure I wouldn't hinder my daughter's or my progress. I have shared much with my therapist about my mother, dd father (my ex) and dd. A few weeks ago, my therapist pulled out her diagnostic manual, and read to the me the definition and list of behaviors for NPD- both my mother and ex had over 5 of the behaviors. She then did the same for BPD- my daughter has over 5. Then she dropped her bombshell- that it was difficult enough to make it through one NPD person , that I was lucky I survived the 2nd narcissist but that I would not physically survive a third. And even though BPD people have empathy it would likely be inconsistent. And so the work for learning to set boundaries, and engage in self love and self care have stepped up.

I love my dd very much. Though I am not sure if she is still there. And I am happy to be accountable for my own behavior as long as this is going to be a 2 way street with an emphasis on creating a stronger future. I am not willing to just be a doormat for her to blame and avoid her own accountability. From things that have been said, I strongly feel she wants to keep the focus on blaming her parents as that allows her to avoid her own accountability. She definitely doesn't want to be reminded of the "good" things that happened in her childhood.

I can probably count on both hands the number of times I have felt dd truly cared about me since she was 14. I am not sure I have hope for a future relationship.

So what now? Do I email the therapist and share with her my feelings- about how the session went? Or do I learn the expected parent guideline response and do that for as long as I can? Do I walk away for awhile- and say I need a break to handle some health issues ( not exactly a lie)? Walking away would be best for me right now but I am terrified of doing so- no matter what DD says- I think if I did so it would have a bad effect on her progress as it would be perceived as abandonment.  

So in addition to feeling hopeless I am feeling helpless- any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[PearlsBefore]

I don't need their acceptance- it doesn't matter, only the acceptance of my friends matters. Of course her only friends- the therapist who just quit, and the night staff.

I had to smile at this part, my primary dBPD once had a similar show of "well my REAL friends..." and I very politely and calmly asked which of her friends would refuse if offered $50 by someone to never see her again...oh no, that's not fair, they'd ALL take the money and never see her again. So we tried to have the calm "look, I don't think these are real friends - I think they like the free alcohol and having been in your pants or keeping you open as an option to get in your pants, or to use you to triangulate a guy in the same group with whom they want to sleep...this isn't friendship". That conversation has probably never gone well in history but it wasn't TOO bad, thankfully.

I get that it's called "Family Therapy", but where your daughter is an/was an inpatient during this time I think that's probably a polite misclassification...it IS likely seen by professionals as "her" therapy, for which family (you) is present to help HER. I'd strongly recommend getting a separate therapist or counselor on the side just for yourself, who never meets your daughter, etc. If cost is an issue, cut back the family therapy by 30% to sneak in a few appointments for yourself with the outsider.

[Leaf56]

Hi 4love, I'm going to start by making a disclaimer that I think should be obvious but seems necessary here sometimes. What I say is my very direct advice based on my opinion and experience, which you obviously are free to take into consideration or not, as I'm sure you have a functioning brain and are able to listen to different points of view and take what you find useful from them and discard what you do not. It is not meant to denigrate others' points of view, nor is it meant to be unquestioningly followed. That said, here's my response.

First, focus all your energy on this statement that you just made: "I am not willing to just be a doormat for her to blame and avoid her own accountability."

You just gave yourself your own advice, and you should follow it to the letter. Now pause and let that sink in.

Now focus on this next statement that you just made: "From things that have been said, I strongly feel she wants to keep the focus on blaming her parents as that allows her to avoid her own accountability."

You are correct.

Next, you made this statement: "I can probably count on both hands the number of times I have felt dd truly cared about me since she was 14. I am not sure I have hope for a future relationship."

While it is nice to have a 2-way street with our children and it's nice when they care about us, this should not be the point of having them and is not a necessary outcome. If this is your focus then you now know what to work on.

You asked: "So what now? Do I email the therapist and share with her my feelings- about how the session went?"

Answer: No.

You asked: "Or do I learn the expected parent guideline response and do that for as long as I can?"

Answer: No

You asked: "Do I walk away for awhile- and say I need a break"

Answer: Yes

You asked if you should say it's to handle health issues: "to handle some health issues ( not exactly a lie)?"

Answer: if you have to lie to do so then sure. Makes no difference.

You stated: "Walking away would be best for me right now"

Then you should do so.

You stated: "but I am terrified of doing so- no matter what DD says- I think if I did so it would have a bad effect on her progress as it would be perceived as abandonment."

My response: Oh well. You matter too.

You stated: "So in addition to feeling hopeless I am feeling helpless"

My response: Yep. Expect to feel this way for the rest of your life and radically accept that this is just the way it's going to be and that the feeling will diminish but never go away.

You stated: "any feedback would be greatly appreciated"

My response: I hope you mean that and don't find my take overly harsh. I'm very no-nonsense, but I believe many parents here know exactly how they feel and what they want to do and are simply looking to be let off the hook to go ahead and do it. I'm letting you off the hook, your therapist is letting you off the hook, now you need to let yourself off the hook. Hard? Yes. Impossible? No.

[Tulipps]

I'm skeptical of any therapy at the moment that isn't solution focused. Spending countless hours and tens of thousands of dollars (it adds up quickly) to  discuss how a 36 year old, highly intelligent woman believes, for example, me not picking her up a week early from summer camp (age 10) when she wasn't having the best time, has ruined her life beyond repair. She was absolutely fine when I did pick her up - laughing and talking up a storm.
When my bpdd was last attended a inpatient treatment center, I was asked to write her an apology letter. I had my own counsellor who helped me draft something to express my love and acknowledge her feelings, but it wasn't what she wanted. Since then, the subject has come up at least 1000 times (not even sure this is an exaggeration ). And not just any apology - it must be a blanket apology that has me taking 100% responsibility for every piece of distorted history and validate every valid and invalid emotion since her birth. I won't. My opinion - you will never convince a person with bpd that their recollection of events may be skewed. I also don't believe that an apology today will eliminate future blaming, because new allegations and altered perceptions will undoubtedly arise after more therapy .
I agree with the two previous replies. You have to look after YOU. The behavior disorder is an explanation, not an excuse to treat you like a door mat. It might make perfect sense to step away and look after yourself, The "fear of abandonment" business is the ultimate manipulative Catch 22 because the dysregulated behavior actually drives people away. My daughter told me 6 years ago that her (then) therapist told her if she didn't work hard recognizing her triggers, learning to self-sooth, and other DBT strategies, she would be alone with her dog at age 40. She is unfortunately headed that way.

[Sancho]

Hi 4love
Your statement 'I love my dd very much. Though I am not sure if she is still there' really resonated with me. We do lose our loved ones to this terrible condition I think and it seems as though many factors have to come together to at least see some change for the better. They are 'borderline' ie in and out of reality and trying to move forward with rational dialogue etc is difficult. If they are capable and willing to learn some skills there can be good results.

If you do decide to go ahead with the therapy I would like to suggest a couple of things. I am not sure there are many therapists who have any experience AT ALL of what day to day life with someone with BPD is like.

So I have found that focusing on very specific examples is really helpful. You can see a therapist gets a different perspective when you spell out an example, not just vague comments.

For example you could say something like 'I know I get angry at times and I am sorry for that' or you could say:

'I would like to be able to respond better. For example when dd came out of her room and tripped over a mat the other day she immediately screamed 'What the f ...? Why did you leave the mat here? you knew I would trip over it. F... you! So I got angry because yes I did leave the mat there but that's where it usually is. What should I do when this happens?

I am not sure what examples you can give of your dd's behaviour. But I think if you can give at least one example each session, you will have the opportunity to give the therapist an honest picture of what you are dealing with.

Frame it in helpful terms: 'I don't know what to do when . . . ' or something like 'I have made many appointments for dd but she often doesn't keep them, So I don't know what to do about that. It makes me embarrassed.

I have found that therapy etc can be a talk fest without concrete examples. When real life examples are given it seems to change things quite a bit in my experience.

[4love]

Thanks so much for all of the responses- they were so helpful. I hope you don’t mind if I  respond to all of them in one post.

Pearlsbefore: "Polite misclassification" is the perfect description. Dd's program is a long term residential- they have a good reputation for handling BPD using an attachment model and DBT and she is presently at the first part which is on a horse ranch with very minimal outside contact- via computer, phone etc.. She gets 2 -30 minute phone calls and one email session a week. Once she meets certain criteria she progresses to more freedoms and then to living in an apartment and handling a job/school.They tout that they promote strengthening/ producing healthier family connections- but...
I have my own therapist and she has been a Godsend- very practical about having real expectations about dd. However she did tell me that overcoming co-dependent behavior was harder than kicking a drug addiction. So I have much work to do on myself.

Leaf56- I have read many of your posts and I don't find you harsh- I find you practical, direct and real. your suggestion to focus all of my energy on not being a doormat was very helpful. No matter what my choice is the #1 priority must be safe boundaries for me. Period.  I am also very aware that I "allow" these episodes to derail the work I am doing on myself- such as not doing what I should to repair some physical issues ( they are real but not life threatening.)  I know I need to come to terms and embrace "radical acceptance" in a way that insures I stop letting myself get derailed.  I am also very aware that is it is highly probable that dd or myself will choose "no contact" moving forward and as you would say- it is what it is. Time to work on me.

Tulipps- Sadly I have also become extremely skeptical of therapy. I am very aware I have not been perfect- not validating, judgmental- etc. I am willing to validate and apologize and learn better methods to communicate but like you - I am not willing to apologize - ad infinitum.  I have played this out with my NPD mother who escalated to the point of demanding I kneel on the alter of guilt for everything “disrespectful or hurtful” I have ever done since I was 8 yo., as well as what others may have done. I am hopeful things will be different with dd but know the odds aren’t good.

Sancho:  I have also read many of your posts and I think you have such a deep tenderness and nurturing quality within you.  Much of what I am struggling with is grief. Grief for what is lost and what will never be.

The program my dd is in holds a Family Program once a quarter- which is 2 days of different sessions and activities. It is held on Thursday/ Friday so that there is an opportunity to have weekend activities/ visits. My dd wanted me to come for as long as possible- so I arranged to arrive Wednesday afternoon and stay through the weekend and Monday. I live in another part of the country so planning and expense was not minimal. We planned to have dinner Wednesday evening- however I got a phone call from the evening residential  director - dd was in a bad headspace and did not want to go to dinner. That’s fine. After greeting me warmly at the 1st day of events, she rapidly deteriorated- much of it about something happening within the program and apparently some about me. It seems my daughter did not feel safe having lunch alone with me during the program- for either day. But she felt safe enough on the afternoon/ evening in between the 2 days and for the entire weekend following to go out and about ALONE with me. For most of dd life I have been her biggest protecter and supporter. To hear she felt unsafe having lunch with me was absolutely devastating.

The truth is I don’t feel safe with her either. And trust- well there isn’t any.  The first session with the new therapist- began with T stating she liked to "put it all out on the table”. Then she asked me to choose a role of someone in a courtroom- that reflected how I interacted with dd. Hmmm- prosecutor, defense atty., judge/ jury. Wow, talk about a trap. Then when I said I had been different ones at different times she felt that was contradictory.  Don’t think she appreciated my comment that different circumstances had different responses. She then asked if I had gotten the parent guidelines. No- no one has shared them. “Polite misclassification”?

But I digress. I love the idea of asking for examples- examples of my and dd behavior and for help in identifying  a different and more helpful response. That is brilliant.

The feedback from all of you has been very helpful. I have spent many hours mulling over everything. I have decided that I am going to attempt one more family therapy. ( And no matter what happens,  I will continue in the family connections program). I am going to lay down my boundary- #1- that I found the last session very uncomfortable.  I find it very confusing because they have a well planned or thought out  agenda before a session which is fine but that I have no idea what will be discussed.  I would like to be informed of the topic at the very least at the beginning of the session so that I can gather my thoughts. This will help me be more productive. ( And I will feel less like I am being put on trial;). #2. Then I am going to reiterate what I think I am hearing my dd say, validate her feelings and ask for examples of my behavior- this will allow me to bring up examples of her behavior and ask for suggestions.  ( This is actually what putting it all on the table should be.).

And if this is not accepted or respected , I am going to need to take a break from family therapy. I always feel better when I have a road map or a plan. Now, thanks to all your feedback and support, I have one.  Thank you!

[Sancho]

Hi 4love
I think you have worked out an excellent plan. It makes all the difference to have details - eg I see things differently because you gave details of your experience. I was blown away!

Also wondered whether you could start the next session with something like 'I have been thinking over your question about what courtroom role I would take, and I think most of the time I am in the role of the accused - but I don't feel I have been given an accused's right to say how things are from my perspective.

The 'not being safe' accusation is one that I have found just - well words can't describe how hurtful it is. I am further along the grieving process now and know more about this illness and what it looks like on a day to day basis. 'I didn't cause it; I can't control it; I can't cure it'

[4love]

Thank you Sancho- I LOVE that idea! Will let you know how it goes.

[Sancho]

Great! Don't forget to follow up with a really solid example of an incident where you were blamed - use quotes etc. Make sure you get across that you are there to be helped respond to such incidents.

Be as straightforward and simple as you can. I tend to waffle on which doesn't help at all!

It is so important that anyone who is supposed to be listening and supporting has some actual facts and examples.