II. Giving her space (Christian discussion)

[understandBPD]

can you see any of this? in your anxiety, youre not hearing what we are saying or suggesting. youre arguing the same things you did before.

I can definetly see this.

if you leave the relationship out of it, if you simply wish her happy birthday, and a special day, no more, no less, it will catch her off guard.

Agreed

It's very reasonable you are depressed given the struggles of the marriage.

Undeniable.

Do you have a few of the last emails you can share? I think members need to understand what has already been said to be helpful on where to go next.

I don't feel completely comfortable sharing private emails but its probably safe to say i have said / done a lot of the wrong things so far. I don't even know if she is receiving the emails or if shes blocked those too.

How will life change? How will you make the claim credible?

I tried to offer a few different solutions 1 was for her to return home to me with a return ticket back to her country so she knows she could go home when needed. The other was to make an agreement with her father that i would book her a ticket home anytime she asked (which i did anyway).

Another was that i would return to her country and we would spend a month together so she could decide if she wanted to continue or not this would allow her to be in the comfort of her own country and with family she could stay with me or continue staying at her parents.

The other was me going to her country to show her through actions that i've made changes and improvements the goal was to go there spend time with her and allow her to see things are/will be different but she denied any opportunity of that and even admittedly said if she see's me or spends time with me she will have feelings for me and there "dangerous" so she just denied any opportunities at all.

I've asked if we could even just talk via email or txt or whatever method she would feel comfortable with and just got ignored. I've been very flexible and understanding and have tried to offer as many realistic and fair solutions as possible but she just won't come to the table or be reasonable at all. (why i keep saying its childish because the way she is treating me is like i've cheated on her or something unforgivable)

What could / would be genuine (to her) and meaningful (to her)?

This is where im stuck i don't think there's anything at all because she isn't behaving rationally , logically , emotionally her behaviour is completely erratic i don't believe there's anything she would acknowledge or accept at this point its like talking to a brick wall.

The parcel had an attempted delivery on the 20th but was unsuccesful i don't know if she rejected it or they were just unable to deliver but i was informed the parcel will be at her local post office.

I sent her an email just letting her know that my family had sent her some gifts for her birthday and gave her the tracking number and said the parcel would be at her local post office for collection if she could let me or my mother know she's received it.

No reply so far

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Fian]

To be honest, her not receiving the parcel is probably better for you.  The books you included would not have helped your reconciliation.

I do have a question for the board.  How long should he wait between attempts to contact?

[Skip]

The books you included would not have helped your reconciliation.

Agree. It might be prudent to arrange to get them back from te post office.  

...tried to offer as many realistic and fair solutions as possible but she just won't come to the table or be reasonable at all. (why i keep saying its childish because the way she is treating me is like i've cheated on her or something unforgivable)

Yes: You did offer numerous reasonable ways to get back together on a trial basis. I can see that.

No: It is a mistake to dismiss her avoidance as childish or irrational. There is something very significant happening and her parents and the therapist are supporting her (possibly guiding her) in her actions at some level. This has gone on for months. It's not something that is going to be fixed in a 60 minute phone conversation (as you have postulated/hoped).

It would have been best to have a soft-hand when she was in crisis and learn exactly what was going on (hindsight is easy). That opportunity is past - it happens - we can get so caught up in our side of things we become blind to others (the beam out of thine own eye). I've done that. Many member have.

You will need to figure out what is going on from what she has already told you - rest assured, she has told you in some way - you have to try to pick through your memory and find it. Sharing things here that were said will help. We have many female members that speak "women".

She could have had a breakdown, she may have been suicidal, she could be having a crisis of faith, she could have been homesick, she could have hated the west, she could have just hated the day to day life she had, or a combination of all of the above. She may see you as the culprit, or she may see herself as making a bad choice and just be embarrassed and humiliated that she got this far into your world and changed her mind.

You need to try and get a handle on the problem before you can evaluate if and how you want to address it.

I need to basically change my entire life
I need to get a good job with good money
I need to go to therapy for minimum 1 year
I need to move out rent my own place alone for the forseeable future

She has used the word "dangerous". What danger could she be talking about?

If she said all this, and it fits with the ongoing conflict it could very well be saying she has changed her mind about the life plan you and her had in mind. Her comment about fear of reconnecting with you could mean that she has an attachment to you (as you should expect) but she doesn't see it as realistic that you would be a part her "changing her entire life".

This is where the your uncompromising independent core values may be seen by her as precluding the ability to build new inter-dependent values with her. She won't be thinking this clinically - more likely it would just be a feeling - "people never change".
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

People do change.

I'm just tossing ideas out to help you cull through the prior conversation.

Emotional intelligence is a challenge. It's not easy to read others. We really have to put our narrative aside for a moment, and focus to do that. Some people have impaired empathy and can't do that. Have you every assessed you r empathy level?
https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

How long should he wait between attempts to contact?

Understanding the past timeline will help understand that. We have no sense of when the trip was - knowing when that happened and the an approximate date and synopsis of the follow-up communications would helpful. Was this sent? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=356387.msg13199858#msg13199858

If that package doesn't make it, it helps. The package will consume the air for a while.

If it was me, I would think really hard how to not have any more unanswered communications. I would not do anything that has a high likelihood of failure/rejection.  I would also not try to go in heavy - try to have a big discussion. I would try to take baby steps to get the door open.

For example... if the gifts and the letter are out of the picture, I would (personally) go with the apology in two weeks or so. Open with, I'm sorry the package got side tracked. I did want to... <apology with "no ask">.  

I'd let that sit for weeks to sink in. Not clutter the situation with "my need" messages. She will need silence in order to hear the apology. She may initially think its a ploy. It will take time to sin in. I would probably send it in a really interesting (not relationship oriented) card. Maybe an art card.

Around the the holidays, I would reach out (maybe through my mother) to tell how things are going (just good and happy news) and inquire about how she and her parents are doing - ask some specific questions. Send some fun (or funny) pictures of something you are doing. Take all the pressure off.

Violating someone boundaries can take on a life of its own. It will take some time to unwind the spring.

[understandBPD]

There is something very significant happening and her parents and the therapist are supporting her (possibly guiding her) in her actions at some level.

This is what i am worried about.

She claimed her mother was abusive her entire life.
She claimed her father wasnt around a lot of the time because he worked far from home.

Her father didn't seem to care or even flinch when i told him some of the serious issues going on when we sat down face to face in her country. He went even further to blow off my concerns about her struggles and serious traumas by saying its normal for people when there growing up. I tried to clarify that what is happening is far from normal and stated the reasons why.

He just listened and said he would support whatever decision she makes he didn't seem to care or want to help at all. He's also had his own fair share of marriage issues and has basically given up in his marriage and is defeated her parents were fighting a lot and possibly going to divorce while my wife was still living with them before she came here. So he should understand the difficulties i am facing.

The therapist is someone from america who i believe she was speaking to online this to me is concerning for so many reasons first the divorce culture in america but also red flags about him saying she could religiously divorce me because i wouldn't agree to  her 30 min time windows and lastly because he made no attempt at all to contact me or involve me in anything and then started advising on divorce. That to me is already extremely negligent because he only has 1 side of the story.

She could have had a breakdown, she may have been suicidal, she could be having a crisis of faith, she could have been homesick, she cojuld have hated the west, she could have just hated the day to day life she had, or a combination of all of the above. She may see you as the culprit, or she may see herself as making a bad choice, she may be fed up with you, or she could just be embarrassed and humiliated that she got this far into your world and changed her mind.

She was suicidal and told me multiple times.
She was homesick. (which is why my idea was for her to go home for 1-2 months)
She did hate the west.
She hated day to day life but that's because she was depressed and wouldn't do anything.
She blamed me for everything. (Later acknowledged she has emotional baggage and may be self sabotaging once she got home)
She implied she regretted marrying me and it was a mistake. (as i said she was always 1 foot in the door never fully committed and always ready to run = disaster)

She probably did change her mind because she didn't commit fully but she's probably conflicted because she claimed she does not believe in divorce only wanted to be with 1 man for her entire life and now she's blowing it up (Some say BPD people aren't even capable of loving someone the fact she can just abandon me like this and show no empathy is mindblowing and makes me question if she even knows what love is or if she just used me for a visa or something else.)

If she said all this, and it fits with the ongoing conflict it could very well be saying she has changed her mind about the life plan you and her had.

This was said on the phone in 1 of the only conversations we had while i was in her country and she basically just said everything possible to give me hoops to jump through and at the end of it was met with a "Then maybe we can talk" there's no way in the world im going to change my entire life around for someone who's abandoned me when i need them stonewalled me for 6 months left me alone in her country and refused to see me and then do all of that while she does who knows what for 1 year and then "hope" for a "maybe" at the end actually the most ridiculous thing i've heard someone say.

Have you every assessed you r empathy level?

Impaired (2)

I think initially i had no impairment as time went on and the fights and poor behaviour , mistreatment and constantly putting me down combined with the fatigue of holding everything together with her doing nothing took a toll on me and i started to see her more as an enemy or someone i needed to protect myself from because she was capable of hurting me and i was slowly losing trust in her each time she kept doing things that really hurt me.

Understanding the past timeline will help understand that. We have no sense of when the trip was - knowing when that happened and the an approximate date and synopsis of the follow-up communications would helpful.

talked on facebook start of 2018
we met end of 2018
married in january 2020
finally arrived in aus may 2022
here for months 10 months left march 2023 (tried to resolve issues she forced a fight few days after going home then started limiting contact into stonewalling from my perspective she didn't really care for the marriage and would say shes done and im the 1 trying to save it not her)
Trip to her country was mid june 2023 (3 months after she left refused to see me , managed to see her for about 20 secs she went into her room refused to talk , spoke 3 times on phone all negative refused try to talk about issues went home after 5 weeks later had seen her parents a few times to talk and ask for help)

I've apologized i've written letters i've tried compromising with everything i've offered all kinds of solutions or meet you half way or meet you the whole way (literally) i've asked for forgiveness i've told her about books im reading to improve myself i've asked her to tell me what she needs from me to improve the situation i've said and tried everything you can probably imagine and she's refused rejected and won't communicate or engage in anything at all.

Leading up before she left we still loved each other were still intimate and clearly upset departing she communicated with me we talked on telegram(msging app) as usual she told me she already missed me etc. soon as she got home she saw someone in a discord server that had a japanese singers picture (the person using the picture is a guy) got angry at me started a fight intentionally extremely forced. I tried to defuse it told her its a guy that she's welcome to talk to the person if she wanted to confirm it asked her what she would like me to do (keep in mind i was not even talking to this person there just in like the equivelant of a chat room with 200 people and she randomly picked 1 of those 200 people then picked a fight with me made no sense at all).

From there the communication got rocky she said she's going to speak to a therapist after the therapist is when the communication was basically cut said i had 30 mins a week to speak to her and report what im working on / changing i tried to talk to her about this and said its not a healthy way to communicate she ignored it tried to do the 30 min thing few times failed i was being stubborn for sure but also felt she was just being manipulative trying to get control then she blocked/unblocked me told her im still not going to do things like this she said shes done trying and that therapist said she can divorce me and blocked me.

If that package doesn't make it, it helps. The package will consume the air for a while

She's already been told the package is at the post office waiting for her to collect it (if she rejected the delivery) then she more than likely won't collect it anyway but think its pretty poor behaviour considering there's gifts / cards from my family for her birthday wasn't just my stuff.

Violating someone boundaries can take on a life of its own.

Well this is where it began her boundary was she's apparently traumatized and gets anxiety and stress to point it gives her health issues from speaking to me. Which is why she said i had 30 mins a week and she was doing that because therapist said she has to give me that opportunity before she can religiously divorce.

I ignored that because at the time i can't understand how she's traumatized gets anxiety and stress when she was literally here 1-2 weeks before hand sleeping in the same bed being intimate talking to me normally when travelling back to her country saying she misses me then all of sudden im the cause of all these issues to point she can't speak to me even when shes on the otherside of the world.

I believe she was just using this as a way to manipulate the power / control and it worked well because when she cut me off it killed me inside.

In hindsight i should of just played her game and went along with it instead of letting her force fights to justify her behaviour.

I would (personally) go with the apology in two weeks or so

This is something i wanted to do i wanted to apologize and say why/what im apologizing for ask for forgiveness etc and then leave it for while to sink in.

Around the the holidays, I would reach out (maybe through my mother) to tell how things are going (just good and happy news) and inquire about how she and her parents are doing - ask some specific questions. Send some fun (or funny) pictures of something you are doing. Take all the pressure off.

Well she didn't reply to my mothers last msg which was about 1 month ago but still has her on facebook but i just think having to speak to my wife through my mother will just make her look down on me even further. I also don't think she'd care about anything im doing no matter what it is.

She is in a really destructive lost mindset and i am certain she is using social media for attention seeking from men (posting photos of herself etc cause she knows i didnt like these things could even be why she kept my mother on facebook also)

I don't think her family is really doing anything to help her (assumption) and i think her therapist is terrible based on the progress so far which to means she's at high risk.

The real question is how do i proceed from here because the longer this goes on the more resentment and anger i feel and the more damage she is doing to the marriage. I know i said i can forgive most things but the way its going she might even do something i can't forgive and that's what is making me feel like times running out.

I love her i really do and i want to make things right and she deserves a stable marriage and to be loved but the way she is treating me is just slowly building resentment and i don't want to become that kind of person towards my wife.

[Fian]

Here is how I would approach things.  This list below assumes that she rejects every advance, so obviously ends with divorce.  Hopefully, you get a positive response before the last step.

1.  Ask her dad to arrange a 30 minute, low conflict meeting with her.  No fighting or blaming or trying to convince her of anything, you just want to hear her voice.
2.  Assuming that fails, next step would be to send her an email directly asking her if she had any objections to you canceling her cell phone plan.  Her responding would indicate that she still reads the email.
3.  If you don't get any response, I am not sure how to proceed, but the next step assumes you can contact her.  Basically in the email you say, I haven't heard from you in a while.  Do you want to work on reconciliation of the marriage, or do you plan on getting a divorce?
4.  Assuming her plan is divorce, state that is not what you wish, but you will respect her choice and stop contacting her.  Based on your understanding of the Bible, remarriage is not an option for you, so if she has a change of heart later, she can send you an email.

[Skip]

The therapist is someone from america who i believe she was speaking to online this to me is concerning for so many reasons first the divorce culture in america but also red flags about him saying she could religiously divorce me because i wouldn't agree to  her 30 min time windows and lastly because he made no attempt at all to contact me or involve me in anything and then started advising on divorce. That to me is already extremely negligent because he only has 1 side of the story.

Fact check: The divorce rate in Australia is 2.2 divorces per 1,000. In the US, 2.5 - about the same. 48% of Australia marriages end in divorce. In the US, 45%.  44% of Australians are Christian. In the US, 63%.

Fact check: A therapist hired by a couple will work to resolve a relationship. A therapist hired by an individual, only serves the needs of their client. This is standard practice. Therapists will interface with the spouses therapist if requested by their client, or invite the spouse to be part of a session if their client requests it, only.

The concern I would have is that she doesn't have an actual therapist, but a life coach. Life coaches have no training and no oversight and they love to "diagnose" estranged partners as psychopaths and tell clients they are victims (it sells). You have one of these life coaches in Sydney (SpartonLifeCoach.com). He has no training, sounds intelligent (certainly some of the things he says are true and some is just made up) and sells victimization. For example, A Cult of One - junk psychology, but people buy it.

If she has a pastoral counselor, it will be better. They are trained and have oversight. However, your (and her) association with Steven Anderson could likely be a red flag. Anderson is mostly known in the US for news clips of him screaming "kill the homos" (his words, I apologize to everyone reading) and is widely considered a cult leader. She could be in cult recovery / cult deprogramming therapy.

You fighting for communication control after she left would likely be seen as a red flag by either, unfortunately.

Either of these situations could explain her use of the word "dangerous".

She sounds very impressionable from what you have said.  How old are each of you?

She was suicidal
She was homesick
She did hate the west
She hated day to day life
She blamed me for everything
She regretted marrying me and said it was a mistake.She said, I need to basically change my entire life
She said, I need to get a good job with good money
She said, I need to go to therapy for minimum 1 year
She said, I need to move out rent my own place alone for the forseeable futureShe probably did change her mind because she didn't commit. She's probably conflicted because she claimed she does not believe in divorce only wanted to be with 1 man for her entire life.

There is a lot to be learned from this.

Impaired (2)

I would guess 2-3. You can learn to be more empathic. It's not terminal, but know you have this weakness for now  

I believe she was just using this as a way to manipulate the power / control and it worked well because when she cut me off it killed me inside.

In hindsight i should of just played her game and went along with it instead of letting her force fights to justify her behaviour.

This hindsight summary reflects the empathy impairment we are talking about. Try not to paint her actions as malicious or toxic, it will make matters worse and possibly guide you to making bad decions. Stay with the big picture.

This might be a more realistic (but difficult) narrative:

Realistic (but difficult) narrative

Technically we were married longer, but practically we entered family life when she moved in. During the 10 months of cohabitation, she and I both struggled with each other and with our own ongoing personal struggles. It was not the exciting new adventure and fun Cinderella story she was likely hoping for. It was a bumpy, unfamiliar, painful day to day experience and she struggled to find her place in my world. She went home with good intentions to work things out.

For the next seven months, we become more and more estranged. There is a third party (counselor or life coach) that is helping her get to a safe place where she is not depressed/suicidal. They may see me as a dangerous/toxic person based on her reports and/or their bias (in the case of a life coach). Unintentionally, I have done things during the separation that could reinforce these notions.

The first year of a marriage is already high risk for divorce. Add new country/culture, the rigors of strict adherence to Fundamentalist Baptist practices, and both of us with some pre-existing depression... the marriage was challenged more than most. And there is the unfortunate possibility that a "therapist" is making things worse.

I believe, "she's probably conflicted because she does not believe in divorce. She only wanted to be with one man for her entire life."

This is not going to be an easy fix. But all is not lost.

If I was going to restate your "hindsight" comments with a view of the bigger picture...

.

1. I should have made being my bride a lot more fun and a lot less dutiful in the first 2 years. I needed to solidify the relationship foundation first. 2. As leader I should have been more of a coach and motivator that an authoritarian. 3. I needed to have fewer independent core values, so that as a couple, we would have room to develop inter-dependent values together which would serve our unity and marriage. [Don't say it! I know the Anderson style was her idea, initially.]

Is this a good foundation to start looking at what to do next?

Do you see why the books are not the best thing right now (hint, red flag for therapist, dutiful rather than fun for her)?

I don't think this is something that can be resolved by sitting down for 60 minutes and talking about it. If you want to resolve this, you will need a much bigger, staged plan and time to play it out. Both of you need to self sooth, get your priorities in order, be open to some significant changes, work on yourselves, and slowly and safely reconnect (like a year).

Do you want to talk about how you might be able to do this?

[understandBPD]

Here is how I would approach things.  

Agree with 1 & 2.

No interest in 3 and 4 divorce isn't an option and i see no point in bringing it up because i wouldn't accept it or respect it.

Fact check: The divorce rate

Australia has like 26 million people american 330 million or more i know for a fact its big business in the US and hear about divorce culture. Point im making is therapists a lot of the time are quick to suggest divorce and don't always have keeping the marriage together. They also have much higher divorce rates in there profession.

Fact check: A therapist

I don't really care to argue but nobody should be advising on a couple in individual therapy without speaking to the other partner its negligent.  (individual therapy is for individual when you are married you aren't an individual)

The concern I would have is that she doesn't have an actual therapist, but a life coach.

I tried to figure out who the therapist was if my guess is correct the guy seems more like a celebrity therapist than a real therapist so you could be correct.

(https://www.facebook.com/p/Dr-Ashkan-Amlashi-100063038180402/?_rdr) My guess of who the therapist might be lists himself as a "public figure"

She could be in cult recovery / cult deprogramming therapy.

Unlikely

Either of these situations could explain her use of the word "dangerous".

She used the word dangerous because she's stubborn and to her this is probably a game she was determined to not see me. I went to her home with flowers and her brother invited me inside that's when she saw me and said what am i doing here i told her i came to see you and to talk. She went in her room i waited in living room with her brother she called her father and the father asked me to leave which i did.

The entire time everything was calm i didn't try to force her to talk and i just spoke with her brother. She was obviously angry that i did see her and that she didn't get her own way like i said to her its a game (she lost) so afterwards she called me abusing me telling me to not speak with her family and threatening me. I told her she should calm down and call me if she wants to talk. So after that she told a friend of mine "today i found out his dangerous" same person she told she isn't married.

Apart from this she's never said im dangerous and i've never done anything to even make her feel scared and its just her exagerating situations as she's done with pretty much everything even when there's proof of the opposite.

How old are each of you?

She is 26 and i am 36

There is a lot to be learned from this.

Yeah most of the issues are her not me.

Try not to paint her actions as malicious or toxic, it will make matters worse and possibly guide you to making bad decions.

Agreed i don't want to see or think of my wife in a negative way and im trying to shake the resentment and just love her. Going to really focus on this because i know resentment is building and i can see it in the way i speak about her after reading my previous posts makes me quite sad because i still believe she is a good woman with a good heart if i thought she was bad i wouldn't want to fix the marriage.

1. I should have made being my bride a lot more fun and a lot less dutiful in the first 2 years. I needed to solidify the relationship foundation first.
2. As leader I should have been more of a coach and motivator that an authoritarian.
3. I needed to have fewer independent core values, so that as a couple, we would have room to develop inter-dependent values together which would serve our unity and marriage. [Don't say it! I know the Anderson style was her idea, initially.]

1.Agreed
2.Agreed
3.Agreed

If you want to resolve this, you will need a much bigger, staged plan and time to play it out. Both of you to self sooth, get your priorities in order, be open to some significant changes, work on yourselves, and slowly and safely reconnect (like a year).

Do you want to talk about how to do this?

I am happy to be patient and take time i don't even mind if it takes a year but the condition for me is that she has to be faithful and stay commited to her vowels.

I don't see this approach being realistic because the longer your apart the worse things get the more chance of moving on and once another relationship is started on her end the marriage is over for good no exceptions.

Since she refuses to communicate i don't know what her current stance is on this commitment in the past in early stages she agreed we wouldn't speak to / see other people and when asked during my trip what her plan is she said she isnt ready for another relationship so she may be staying faithful and its entirely possible its my insecurity.

That being said i have seen on facebook she does speak with guys and is receptive to compliments so its not entirely just my insecurities in my eyes she is a married woman she should behave like 1 by behaving this way she is damaging the marriage and trust i have for her and if reconciliation was to happen its something that would be a problem.

Especially when on my side i am faithful i am not using social media i speak to no females at all and have 0 intentions of moving on from the marriage or accepting it might be over at this stage i consider myself married and i should honor those vowels ive made to her until we are officially divorced and i think its fair to expect the same in return.

If that package doesn't make it, it helps. The package will consume the air for a while

She collected the package yesterday afternoon from her local post office. Also messaged my mother and thanked her for the gifts and said she would email me to let me know she received the package. (im not expecting an email or reply at all)

[Skip]

(https://www.facebook.com/p/Dr-Ashkan-Amlashi-100063038180402/?_rdr) My guess of who the therapist might be lists himself as a "public figure"

Dr. Ashkan Amlashi is very well educated, with a Psy.D. Psychology, Masters of Christian Leadership Theology, Masters in Psychology, and a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology. He is currently in training/internship and he works for the local government behavioral services and serves Iranian community.

The University he attended is a respected interdenominational Evangelical Christian seminary.  He gives sermons at a small local church. He has been a guest on SAT-7 PARS, an Iranian christian channel broadcasting from Cypress.  

He would understand the culture of Iran and of the west and is tapped into the small Christian community in Iran. He would understand moving into a different culture. He would understand the Freedom Movement of Iran.

Whether he is treating her or she is just following his sermons online, he is not a Fundamentalist Baptist.

Hope this information is helpful.

[understandBPD]

he is not a Fundamentalist Baptist.

Which my wife is by her own choice not mine i didn't even know what a Independant Fundamental Baptist was until she explain it to me.

Again this was a guess i could be wrong that being said any "christian" who suggests divorce without speaking to the spouse as well in my eyes is negligent regardless of his qualifications.

I think regardless of who the therapist is its likely she's gone in told them a story of me painted black to get there support then used that to also get her parents support. This combined with the lying , twisting and exaggerating of what happen got her parents support. Previously her father was neutral and actually sided with me which she hated the first time after a week of marriage she was fighting and wanted to go home her father said no. When she was living with me she kept saying she wanted to go home her father kept telling her she had to resolve the conflict and i spent time speaking with the father weekly. It eventually got to the point where he asked me what is going on i told him the truth and said i think its good if she goes home for a month or 2 she is homesick and struggling and depressed and it will be good for both of us and we had originally planned for her to go back to see her family anyway so made sense.

She kept trying to push me to get her ticket and i was worried about the covid restrictions at the time explained that to her and she kept saying she didn't care and said i was trapping her here (untrue) i told her speak with her father if her father agrees for her to go home i would book the ticket the same day. Father kept telling her to be reasonable with me she got worse and worse then she started crying everytime her parents called i dunno if she told them i did something or not (i didn't) the day her father said if i agree for her to go back to her country i said i do temporarily i booked her ticket the same day.

I do hope i am wrong and she's gone into therapy being truthful about everything afterall i do believe she is intelligent and is self aware of her issues and had admitted them which is really good first stap and i pray God will continue to work with her as well.

[Fian]

Agree with 1 & 2.

No interest in 3 and 4 divorce isn't an option and i see no point in bringing it up because i wouldn't accept it or respect it.

If you aren't planning on doing 3, I wouldn't recommend using 2.  2 verifies that she is still monitoring the email address, which allows you one additional communication.  I wouldn't use it unless there is one final communication you want to make.  As for divorce not being an option, in the end that will be her choice.  You refusing to accept it won't change things.

[understandBPD]

If you aren't planning on doing 3, I wouldn't recommend using 2.  2 verifies that she is still monitoring the email address, which allows you one additional communication.  I wouldn't use it unless there is one final communication you want to make.  As for divorce not being an option, in the end that will be her choice.  You refusing to accept it won't change things.

I am almost certain the email is not blocked mainly because she has a lot of her sentimental stuff still here. She called me 1 night while i was in her country and sounded stressed and upset and asked if i would let her have her friend pickup her stuff i said ofcourse if you want but it would be safer at home she insisted i said okay. Her friend wasn't able to make it which kinda proved my point to her that she wasn't that reliable.

I told her that her stuff is safe i would never do anything spiteful regardless of what happens its not the type of person i am. Since then she hasn't asked me or my mother if she can get her stuff which to me is a good sign and i've ensured i don't get angry or do anything spiteful towards her and keep my word. For this reason i believe she will keep the email option open either for that or if she is planning a divorce on the 12 month mark she will want to contact me.

The reason 3 isn't option is i don't have any intention of considering the marriage over so making a final comment seems counterproductive that would be something used if i was planning to accept the divorce and move on which im not.

With no fault divorce ofcourse she has the option does not mean i need to accept it or make it easier for her to do it because it goes against everything i believe and i am certain what she believes by accepting it or making it easy or even initiating it myself it relives her of the guilt/blame.

We both agreed divorce wasn't an option and we shouldn't talk about it since we don't consider it an option i am sticking to what we agreed to which is why i am not mentioning divorce to her at all so she knows its not something i consider or an option in my eyes and hopefully she is slowly realizing it shouldn't be in her eyes either.

[once removed]

She used the word dangerous because she's stubborn and to her this is probably a game

if you are going to continue to reduce her concerns, her actions, or the words that she clearly articulated to you when she was still willing to speak, to the above, you are fundamentally not serious about repairing your marriage. you just arent.

the word "dangerous" may be a hard one to hear. especially from a loved one. and i imagine it doesnt reflect how you see yourself. but the fact is, nothing sends the signal that youre dangerous like dismissing the concern (and the efforts to flee) of the person that fears you.

if you want to send the opposite message, then it makes sense to examine what you might have done that communicated that youre dangerous, why your wife sees you that way, and of course, what you can do to send the 'right' message.

but weve done that already. right? throughout this thread.

Yeah most of the issues are her not me.

lets just assume that youre right in that assessment. lets assume that she pulled the word dangerous out of her ass, and that it had nothing to do with your actions, shes just being a difficult woman.

if this is really still your narrative, then what are you doing? what are we doing? theres nothing to be done, and for all any of us know, she will come to her senses and return tomorrow.

Agreed i don't want to see or think of my wife in a negative way and im trying to shake the resentment and just love her. Going to really focus on this because i know resentment is building and i can see it in the way i speak about her after reading my previous posts makes me quite sad because i still believe she is a good woman with a good heart if i thought she was bad i wouldn't want to fix the marriage.

i believe this, and its why i get that when you have the hardest time seeing things from your wifes perspective, youre speaking out of hurt. thats when its hardest for everyone. i had an old high school girlfriend call me a stalker once. being called dangerous? by your wife? ouch.

so i probably wouldnt push the point, except that setting aside your hurt (at least as its directed at her) and understanding hers is both the central problem and solution, and doesnt really seem to be improving in a way that matches the urgency of the situation.

red flags about him saying she could religiously divorce me

i dont recall you mentioning this before, and to me, its very significant.

it suggests to me that not only is your wife contemplating divorcing you (which may or may not have been a given), but if she has been led to the conclusion, that she didnt have before, that she can religiously divorce you, it is possible (not certain) that she is planning to divorce you, and has been advised not to have any contact with you, run out the clock. that would be advice that you might give to a person who was in a dangerous/abusive situation.

it is possible im wrong about that, or that im partially wrong about that. and whether i am or not, it is my sense, and i think the sense of participants in this thread, that your wife has not fully closed the door. if i thought that she had, i wouldnt still be telling you how to improve things.

my point is like Skip mentioned, about painting yourself in a corner. whether or not you are a danger, whether or not you would ever harm your wife or anyone, it is probably not stubbornness or game playing or mental illness on her part, but your actions that have reinforced her avoidance and the lengths to which shes gone. youve got to accept that reality in order to work with it, and you are continuously working against it, both in your actions (toward her) and in your words (toward us).

its not because we are on her side or because i think youre the bad guy here. there are no good guys or bad guys. this is about a family. the survival of that family is on the line, and every move, good or bad, counts extra.

this is probably the biggest, and most important challenge for you. if you can learn and put into practice these empathy skills, then frankly, navigating the rest will be far easier. as its been said, the first step to repairing a relationship is to stop making things worse; just not doing those things. it is my assessment that you are by and large still at that step. the urgency of the situation requires digging in.

[understandBPD]

lets just assume that youre right in that assessment. lets assume that she pulled the word dangerous out of her ass, and that it had nothing to do with your actions, shes just being a difficult woman.

if this is really still your narrative, then what are you doing? what are we doing? theres nothing to be done, and for all any of us know, she will come to her senses and return tomorrow.

Assuming she does have BPD and painted me black its not exactly far fetched for her to say this right ? She's already lied about multiple things and accused me of cheating and also not supporting her despite there being extreme amounts of evidence proving otherwise. Explain this to me i wasn't dangerous when she was here but after she went home despite me being on the other side of the world between then and when i saw her i somehow became dangerous ? I know how my wife is she is very stubborn and so am i and i believe she's not used of losing (in the context of someone being more stubborn than her). So more than likely she got triggered because i did see her so she threw out the word dangerous to someone i know that's only time i've heard her say it along with we aren't married (either lying or having some kind of denial).

Let's assume she does genuienly feel that way i am not really sure what to do since i haven't done anything to justify that label and if you say to me well you don't need to do anything that's how she feels i would say then what's stopping her from waking up 1 day and saying im *insert problem / behaviour here* and then me having to say well she feels that way so i should act accordingly.

To me that's bringing her unrealistic unjustified and irrational thoughts and affirming them im not sure if im wording it properly but as an example she says im dangerous (i believe im not) if i start accepting that behaviour and saying im sorry for making u scared or im sorry for being dangerous or something that affirms to her that i accept that label does it not ?

What i'm doing here is slowly learning and getting help while working through my own struggles of being mistreated and hurt.

i dont recall you mentioning this before, and to me, its very significant.

She did mention divorce like i said and she claimed the therapist told her to do the 30 min a week reporting stuff as her (boundary) because i said to her that it wasn't a healthy way to communicate and said ignoring me weekly or blocking me (stonewalling) is self sabotaging the relationship she said the therapist said she has to give me that chance for religious reasons before divorce.

Keeping in mind i explained to her i was willing to discuss things and compromise to make her happy but didn't feel comfortable with 30 min weekly conversations it felt rushed and telling me i had to report felt pressuring and didn't want to do things like that. She said talking to me causes he stress and anxiety my issue is she had no issue talking to me when she was here she had no issue talking to me while she was leaving or even when she got home and the issue only became an issue when she purposely started a fight with me this is why i believe its a game to her i didn't do anything inbetween to cause any kind of stress or anxiety whatsoever.

this is probably the biggest, and most important challenge for you. if you can learn and put into practice these empathy skills,

I agree the pride/stubborness is the stuff i need to work on but this is where it comes back to when she behaves in a masculine / malicious way its extremely difficult for me to show empathy because i feel the need to protect myself because i start to see her as destructive/evil the more submissive / feminine she is the less she triggers these thoughts the easier it is for me to see her as my wife and the (weaker vessel) who needs protecting and love and kindness.

She is making it incredibly difficult for me with her actions and i think in all honesty i've done well so far to not get angry or lose my temper at all and limited my frustrations to venting in here rather than directed at her.

[Cat Familiar]

Let’s talk about the word she used, *dangerous*.

I’ll tell you a story from my life in hopes you can understand how your behavior might have impacted her and led her to make that word choice. I understand that not only does “dangerous” seem inaccurate and ridiculous to you, but that you think there is some gamesmanship or manipulative behavior behind that claim.

When I was young, I was dating a guy who I realized had more interest in me than I had in him. (I’m not claiming this is true in your relationship—I’m just getting to the word “dangerous”).

At a certain point, I realized that his extreme focus on me was getting kind of scary since I was understanding that I really didn’t want to get as involved with him as he’d hoped. He started showing up at my work. I was working in a large department store and I told him that I couldn’t talk to him while I was on shift. Yet he’d stand far away and watch me. It started creeping me out. I think I even told a security officer to tell him to leave on one occasion.

Then he began doing overly nice things for me—giving me gifts I really didn’t want, painting little decals on the side rear windows of my car (he was a gifted artist—and he’d asked permission I’d granted), offering to buy me a dog. He began showing up at my house unannounced, when I’d refused to see him. Then he told me some wild story about how he nearly got killed in a motorcycle race he’d just participated in. (I was suspicious of the details so I checked out his story and the facts didn’t support his narrative.)

Anyway, at that point, I started to get really scared. Finally one day he showed up at my house and my mother read him the riot act, “Don’t ever show your face around here again!” She could be really scary when she showed her frightening BPD side.

So he never again came around, and I breathed a sigh of relief. Then, that summer I took a photography class in college, and guess who also took that same class? I don’t think he intentionally signed up, knowing that I had as well. We did our best to avoid each other, which wasn’t easy.

Then a couple of decades passed. Suddenly I got an email from him. It totally creeped me out. I certainly would have used the word *dangerous* to describe him, based upon how I reacted to him contacting me so many years later.

I have no idea if he is actually a dangerous person, but the continued contact when I made it really clear that I didn’t want that, made me think he had no interest in complying with my wishes, and also caused me to wonder what else he was capable of doing. It was scary.

Undoubtedly you have very little understanding of women’s perspective. You don’t have women friends and you have no contact with any women apart from your mother. I tell you this account because it can feel very vulnerable to be a woman and to tell a man “no” only to have him continue to ignore it.

[once removed]

Assuming she does have BPD and painted me black its not exactly far fetched for her to say this right ?

i dont know what sort of bpd material youre reviewing. i know that about 99% of what is on the internet is garbage, and will probably confuse you more than help.

surely you dont think that just because someone has (or doesnt have) bpd that there is no logic or rationale, no validity to anything they say or do?

because if thats the case, its difficult to love or respect someone you see that way.

it doesnt hurt me when you dismiss or minimize her perspective. it hurts your marriage.

To me that's bringing her unrealistic unjustified and irrational thoughts and affirming them im not sure if im wording it properly but as an example she says im dangerous (i believe im not) if i start accepting that behaviour and saying im sorry for making u scared or im sorry for being dangerous or something that affirms to her that i accept that label does it not ?

i think we are all trying to tell you that they arent unrealistic, unjustified, or irrational. they make sense.

on the flip side, if you push to reach someone trying to get away from you, you are affirming their fears.

but, this is another example of seeing things in extreme, black and white terms. accepting that your wife (and her support system) see you as dangerous, whether you agree with it or not, is accepting reality as it is. from there, you can more easily determine how/why youre sending those signals, and how to stop sending them. no one is suggesting that you say "sorry for being dangerous". no one is suggesting you say anything. i am suggesting you step back, and with empathy and self awareness, see that you, through your actions, have created that impression, and what now, to do (or not do) about it.

What i'm doing here is slowly learning and getting help while working through my own struggles of being mistreated and hurt.

okay. do you think you may need to be heard more first, vent your struggles, before its easier to hear us/her? thats not unusual, if so.

[understandBPD]

Let’s talk about the word she used, *dangerous*.

Let's put that into context in my situation.

We are talking about my wife who i've known for years we've lived together shared a bed together. She didn't feel this way at any point until she (lost) and was clearly angry not scared if you were scared you wouldn't call the person your scared of abusing them threatening them etc it was very clear that she was just peed off that i did see her when she was being difficult and unreasonable knowing that i had come across the world to sit with her and discuss what is happening she thought she was in control and it was a game to her.

You can say well maybe she didn't want to see you because she's scared okay but i also asked if we could sit with her family together for dinner or to talk all together in her home which would be the safest place possible she refused she wasn't scared she was stubborn.

I didn't continue showing up anywhere i saw her 1 time and made no attempt after that to see her and i told her i wouldn't unless she agreed i kept my word. My reasoning behind going there to see her was it had been months since she went home she was being unreasonable and the least she could do for her husband is to give me a few mins to talk because if the roles were reversed i would do the same.

Undoubtedly you have very little understanding of women’s perspective. You don’t have women friends and you have no contact with any women apart from your mother. I tell you this account because it can feel very vulnerable to be a woman and to tell a man “no” only to have him continue to ignore it.

Prior to meeting her and in the early stages i actually had a lot of female friends i was a lot more active and social and never had issues with any of them. After meeting my wife she caused fights over my instagram which i used for my travelling photos etc to the point i just deleted it then it was the facebook but i chose to delete that after marriage.

As i said earlier i've been isolated lost a lot of friends while she's kept her social media is attention seeking from guys and does not seem to be phased by any of this

I'm sorry but i don't see her as a victim i don't see her as a woman who is scared if anything based on the current situation combined with her actions and behaviour i see her as malicious destructive and spiteful.

’ll tell you a story from my life

Out of curiousity did you ever just meet with him and explain you don't have interest in him and you'd like him to not do these things as its coming across creepy and you'd like him to respect what you've asked and if he does actually care about you to give you space as that would give the best chance of anything happening in the future or something along those lines ?

Or did you just keep rejecting him and call him creepy but never actually take time to speak with him directly ?

I tell you this account because it can feel very vulnerable to be a woman and to tell a man “no” only to have him continue to ignore it.

Well then perhaps acting like a mature adult and behaving like a married woman would go a long way to resolving that. She could take the time to speak with me or see me and discuss the marriage and what is going on with her and what she's planning to do etc to give me some idea of what is happening.

If your going to stonewall , lie and behave in a destructive way don't complain when your husband comes to see you and speak with your family its your own doing.

surely you dont think that just because someone has (or doesnt have) bpd that there is no logic or rationale, no validity to anything they say or do?

I think based on the events that have occursed combined with her behaviour , lying and exaggeration i think there may be things said that might be irrational or not valid or exaggerated for sure becuase there's facts to support that. That's not to invalidate everything just things that don't really match the situation.

. accepting that your wife (and her support system) see you as dangerous, whether you agree with it or not, is accepting reality as it is.

If i go and tell all of my family and therapist a bunch of lies and exagerate a 1 sided story about my wife there going to think my wife is dangerous and horrible does that mean its the reality ? Nope

What i am trying to tell you is i have not done anything to justify this and she has painted me black and then lied/exaggerated to her support system despite proof showing it to be untrue your telling me to accept a false reality.

I'm fine with taking a step back and not pushing contact its already something i agreed to do a few posts back.

okay. do you think you may need to be heard more first, vent your struggles, before its easier to hear us/her? thats not unusual, if so.

The easiest way i can explain this is i believe my wife has been unfair unreasonable extremely difficult mistreated me and never comitted fully to the marriage or her vowels she has caused a lot of issues for me and then abandoned me when i needed her. She now stonewalls me and is potentially going to divorce me and she has has clear issues throughout her entire life serious issues that have messed her up she has treated her husband of many years like someone she has dated for 1 week then decided to not continue this is ridiculous behaviour and childish.

I come here because i wanted to find a solution on how i can help her fix her behaviour i already know what my flaws are and mostly how to fix them but im constantly coming up against people blaming me for everything and its extremely irritating. I can sit here and show you messages of all the ridiculous things shes done and said and lied about and how she's treated me and somehow you will comment and blame me.

I tell you my wife stonewalls me for months and i wanted to see her so i went to her country she calls me dangerous i start getting stories about some creepy guy who wouldn't leave someone alone ... i tell you she's been abusive unfair mistreated me isolated me and been unreasonable and then tried to make me look bad to her family and even to my mother and i get told her behaviour is justified and reasonable and i deserve this because i defend myself and protect myself from someone being evil and spiteful towards me.

I don't really understand how some of this is meant to help me when half the comments i get are basically attacking me or assigning blame on me for her poor childish behaviour.

I don't think its unrealistic to be angry that she's treated me this way used me discarded me acts like a brat attention seeking and has impacted my life severly and then pretended nothing happened she should be held accountable and take responsibility for her problems and people shouldn't be supporting someone with clear issues. I wouldn't treat a dog this way let alone a human let alone my wife so why on earth should i accept being treated like this and be okay with it and ignore all of that and say yes its all my fault yes im dangerous yes i deserve this that is actually insane.

[Blurr]

Hi, I'm no expert. I have been reading this thread and following it. Do you have any examples of these times you "won" and your wife "lost" and how that all went? I am wondering how one or two of those sort of situations might have gone from start to finish if that's something you are comfortable to share?

[Cat Familiar]

“Out of curiousity did you ever just meet with him and explain you don't have interest in him and you'd like him to not do these things as its coming across creepy and you'd like him to respect what you've asked and if he does actually care about you to give you space as that would give the best chance of anything happening in the future or something along those lines ?”

Yes, I did tell him I wasn’t that into him and that I didn’t want him showing up unexpectedly. It was years ago. I didn’t have much emotional intelligence then. If I did, I could have phrased it in the way you suggested and perhaps gotten a better response.

In no way am I comparing your story to mine. You can let that assumption go.

Did you inform her that you were coming to her country? Or did you just show up?

If you told her, did she agree to see you?

And did you appear after the point where she had limited contact to only one 30 minute phone call a week?

If I were to put myself in her shoes and imagine that you’d been told to only call once a week for 30 minutes, then you show up at my house on another continent, I’d be totally freaked out. That is stalker behavior.

[Fian]

I come here because i wanted to find a solution on how i can help her fix her behaviour

This board cannot fix her behavior, we can only fix yours.

As for her saying you are dangerous, you are trying to analyze it logically, instead of emotionally.  Your relationship was stressing her out, to the point where she was contemplating suicide, and ultimately chose to protect herself by relocating back home.  You then show up unannounced and removed her protection of distance.  She felt that was sucking her back into suicidal feelings, and that made you dangerous.  She may have displayed anger towards you, but she was also afraid.

When you hear the word dangerous, you think of causing her physical harm.  She is probably thinking of emotional harm, and via suicide that would put her in physical harm.

[understandBPD]

do you have any examples of these times you "won" and your wife "lost" and how that all went?

Initially as i previously mentioned she was used of always being right and having people agree with her because she's intelligent. So an example would be i was driving in her country i was certain about directions because im good at remembering places and routes. She argued with me because were in "her" country and she knows best i told her she's wrong she got annoyed i continued to trust in my ability and not just do what she wanted which resulted in poor behaviour. After continuing driving in the direction i believe was correct it turned out to be correct and she was suprised. (I proved she was wrong in her decision actively chose to trust in myself this is what i mean by losing/winning).

These kinds of scenarios happened often i would say 99.9% of the the time i was correct with my decision there were times where i was wrong and i was happy to admit it as well i always listened to what she said but i chose to make the decision based on what i believed was best or correct. A majority of the time she would thank me later for being so smart / praising me and saying i am a great leader with good decision making skills.

Most of the time it wasn't arguements or fights and it was lighthearted and funny and we'd laugh about it. But after we got married it progressively got worse. I mentioned we are both stubborn so sometimes i would out stubborn her an example of a more difficult win/lose situation would be she was angry at me because i decided i was going to spend some time how i wanted.

So she got upset i tried to comfort her she told me to go away she then started refusing to eat i asked her if she wanted food or me to order something etc she'd say no being stubborn. So i was more stubborn i would order her something i know she likes she would say she does not want it and isn't going to eat it id say ok no problem i would put the food in the room next to her she would tell me its just going to go to waste if you leave it there i would be more stubborn and say that's okay i can afford it.

I would then go back to spending time how i wanted she would be angry given a few hours eventually she ate the food. I would go back in there to check on her and see she ate and take the plate to the kitchen and then she would be fine or happy or say thank you. (in this context i won she lost) we were both stubborn had i just given in i would of not been able to spend time doing something i wanted , i would not of ordered her food so she prob wouldn't of ate and in the end i don't even know if she would of been happy.

These are just some examples some are on the light side and others progressively get more serious based on her actions.

Did you inform her that you were coming to her country? Or did you just show up?

She had blocked me and i had no idea what was happening she didn't respond to anything i waited over a month. In the time she left i spent time working on myself fixing the issues and then went to visit to speak with her and also her family to find a solution.

If i was able to contact her there's no doubt she would of said don't come i agree but she's also a very stubborn woman. I am her husband i wanted to show her that she is important to me what shows you are more important than someone who loves you travelling across the world to see you ? (Prior to her leaving back to her country she wanted me to go with her)

If I were to put myself in her shoes and imagine that you’d been told to only call once a week for 30 minutes, then you show up at my house on another continent, I’d be totally freaked out. That is stalker behavior.

I wasn't told to call once a week i was blocked because i refused to let her manipulate the situation. If you had behaved like that i would of called you immature and disrespectful. I am her husband not some random guy she dated i've invested a significant amount of my time and emotions into our relationship you don't get to just block someone disappear and pretend they don't exist. It don't work like that and even legally it does not work like that you can't just disappear pretend your not married and go re marry you have obgligations and commitments.

I would also say don't get into a relationship with someone promise someone things commit to them get married and then expect to treat them like someone you've known for a week and think when you have obvious issues and aren't behaving rationally and what seems to be "discarding" your marriage or husband and expect the person to just sit there blocked with no idea what's happening in there life and not expect them to try to resolve it.

This board cannot fix her behavior, we can only fix yours.

This is a forum based on dealing with people who have BPD i suspect my wife has BPD therefore there are issues with her behaviour.

While fixing mine is also a reason i am here if i am not able to help her fix hers as well then how am i expected to have any kind of workable relationship ?

As for her saying you are dangerous, you are trying to analyze it logically, instead of emotionally.  Your relationship was stressing her out, to the point where she was contemplating suicide, and ultimately chose to protect herself by relocating back home.  You then show up unannounced and removed her protection of distance.  She felt that was sucking her back into suicidal feelings, and that made you dangerous.  She may have displayed anger towards you, but she was also afraid.

Here's the problem with that she was suicidal while living at her parents while we waited for her visa she would complain and cry and say how much she hates living there she would tell me stories about them treating her like a slave. After she went back to her parents she told her parents the exact same thing about living with me.

So which 1 is it ? is it me ? is it her parents ? is it both ? or is it her ?

Here's the facts she was sucidial all throughout her life since her traumas so much so her parents removed her door in her bedroom. She was suicidal when living with her parents after she met me. She was suicidal after living with me as well. She's suffered from a range of other issues before during and after our relationship throughout her entire life.

So in knowing all of this is it likely i am the problem ? did i somehow influence her life before i even met her are you also going to blame me for her being sucidial before i even knew her ? actually ridiculous and i think your analysis of this is wrong.

What i would like to see if acknowlegement that the person i am dealing with is not behaving well or rationally which is obvious at this point understanding she has some clear issues. Then pointing out my side of what i am doing wrong and giving me advice on not only how to help fix my issues but also how or what i can do to influence / help her.

I can fix myself i can become the most perfect man in the world if she does not see her own problems and fix herself and she came back i would be in the same situation again listening to everyone blame me ?

It's like having a car and your back 2 wheels (me) are flat so you pump them up and your front 2 wheels are gone you don't have any (her) you can tell me all you want how to pump up my 2 wheels but when i get in that car and go to drive it i am not going to go very far unless i find a way to fix the 2 front wheels. (and yes i know someone will probably say maybe you need to get new front wheels not fix them in my case i want to try to fix them because i love my car "marriage")

For the sake of trying to make progress i am going to stop defending myself and arguing with people here and just listen to what people say regardless if i disagree with them or there wrong and see what i can get out of it. I know i've mentioned enough for it to be clear about the situation so im going to just try to focus on not being resentful/angry and showing more empathy and understanding of the situation accepting that she has issues and trying to deal with them.

[Cat Familiar]

In a nutshell, here’s the problem. You’ve mentioned that she has repeatedly been suicidal. OK. We know that is an issue that is connected to mental illness. Whether or not it’s BPD, that’s another question. For our purposes here, it doesn’t matter what the diagnosis is. Repeated suicidal ideation = mental illness.

A theme that has recurred in your posts is that her behavior is not fair to you. I’d agree. Anyone who exits the marriage, goes to another country, and refuses to communicate—that’s some messed up  

Let’s set aside blame; we are not trying to blame you—we are merely trying to figure out the dynamics of what went wrong.

Going back to the first presumption that we share without reservation, we would say that making threats of suicide repeatedly throughout her life seems to indicate some level of mental illness.

Here’s where your logic runs into a snag. You are saying you want to “fix her” and have her recommit to the promises she made in her vows to you.

She’s mentally ill.

Sure, we’d all like to “fix” our dysfunctional partners, but THEY ARE MENTALLY ILL. That’s why they’re dysfunctional in the first place.

Even therapists struggle with their BPD clients, assuming she is BPD. And other types of mental illness are not easy to “fix” even with professional help.

Yet you want to take on a do it yourself fix job on someone who is mentally ill. Can you see how unrealistic that is?

Fian made the point that we can help you “fix” yourself so that you will be perceived by her as a more desirable partner (assuming she allows you to communicate with her in the future). But you cannot “fix” her, even with her consent. The only person who can “fix” her is HER, and so far, she seems to be pursuing that on her own with a well-trained clinical psychologist.

[understandBPD]

Yet you want to take on a do it yourself fix job on someone who is mentally ill. Can you see how unrealistic that is?

I can yes im being too logical.

The only person who can “fix” her is HER, and so far, she seems to be pursuing that on her own with a well-trained clinical psychologist.

Who's seemingly told her she can divorce me without knowing anything about me. We know she's exaggerated & lied about certain things to her parents accused me of cheating to my own mother what do you think she's told her psychologist ?

This is where my concern is if she's gone to this psychologist and told him a fabricated story and he seemingly hasn't even bothered to perhaps speak with me and ask about things then told her to divorce he's set her on a path that's extremely destructive and reinforced to her that idea is right.

What can i do about that because right now nothing is improving.

[Cat Familiar]

I suppose you could contact him, pay him for a session, then tell your side of the story. Not sure if it would be ethical for him to consult with you—there are specific codes that professional psychologists obey as far as ethics, and he may not be able to speak with you.

[understandBPD]

Would this not also be something perceived as a bad thing ? That i tried to find her therapist then talk to him ?

I have asked her if we could talk to her therapist together she rejected it and I asked if she was willing to talk to mine or find 1 together she didn't even respond.

Perhaps if everything else fails and things aren't looking good this might be a last ditch option but again this therapist might not even know her.

I just think its crazy how any professional can advise divorce without speaking to both parties mind blowing

Perhaps contacting him via phone or email explaining who I am asking if he knows of my wife and ask if he would be willing to assist if she gives permission and see what he says would be a better route ?

[Fian]

Have you seen Ground Hog day with Bill Murray?  If not, you should see it - it is a great movie and has actually been used as source material for many sermons.  What you saw in the movie was a man who was locked into living the same day over and over.  His first time through the day, he reacted to everything, was a jerk to many people, and they responded in kind.  He repeated much of the same behavior the next day, and got the same result.  However, he decided to try to approach people in different ways, and he would get very different responses from them.  Instead of reacting to them, he instead interacted with them strategically.  By taking a radically different approach, he got a radically different response from them.

You can look at your relationship with your wife in the same way.  If you repeat the same behaviors, reacting to what she does, you will get the same responses from her.  If you change your behavior radically, you may get a radically different response from your wife.  This board can't impact your wife, but we can impact you.  We are trying to help you to change your approach towards your wife, so that you can get a different result.  Who is at fault doesn't really matter, if the goal is to get a different response from your wife.  If you just react to what she does, and focus on who is to blame, your marriage will not succeed, as you will continue down the road that you already started.  If you instead focus on changing your behavior with an eye to causing a different reaction in her, then your marriage has a chance of success.

[Cat Familiar]

Would this not also be something perceived as a bad thing ? That i tried to find her therapist then talk to him ?

It very well might be though of that way. Much depends upon your attitude and how you communicate.

I have asked her if we could talk to her therapist together she rejected it and I asked if she was willing to talk to mine or find 1 together she didn't even respond.

She has indicated that couples counseling is a *no go* for her at this time.

I just think its crazy how any professional can advise divorce without speaking to both parties mind blowing

You don’t know that he has advised divorce. Typically therapists encourage their clients to tell them what they want/plan to do, rather than advise any particular outcome. She may have mentioned divorce and wondered if it were possible to retain the tenets of her faith should she pursue that route.

Perhaps contacting him via phone or email explaining who I am asking if he knows of my wife and ask if he would be willing to assist if she gives permission and see what he says would be a better route ?

I would bet the above would be a violation of ethics. What I see that could be possible is if you were to tell your side, and how much you would like to reunite. NOTHING MORE

He is likely restricted from entering into anything where he would advise both of you. Should you have entered therapy together at the outset, seeing you on an individual basis would be possible.

But there’s no way he is going to violate confidentiality with her and serve as an intermediary in helping you obtain a reconciliation.

[understandBPD]

I think for now its best to avoid contact with the therapist assuming it is the right person.

Unless others here think it might be a good option i feel like as soon as she hears that i figured out who her therapist was and then contacted him i don't see anything good coming from it if anything she will just use it against me.

Plan for now is to continue focusing on getting rid of resentment and frustration and showing more empathy towards the woman i love.

Her birthday is in 2 days she's received the package and i've sent her a decent amount of money for the next month or so with enough for her to spend on her birthday.

Will send her an email on her birthday just wishing her happy birthday and to have a good day etc nothing more and will have flowers delivered to her.

I'll wait 1-2 weeks speak with her father about organizing a call to hear her voice low conflict not talking about marriage etc or ask if his willing to help mediate to improve the situation or if he can ask her what needs to be done on my end for us to have communication again.

If he helps great ill go from there if he refuses / does not respond i will write an apology email laying out what im apologizing for how it impacted her and asking her to forgive me for the things ive done wrong and ask for her to give me the opportunity to correct were i went wrong when we were together. (i'll ask here first for help to write it in a good format)

After that i will leave it for a month or longer (my birthday is mid november so will see if she completely ignores me or reaches out)

[SinisterComplex]

I think for now its best to avoid contact with the therapist assuming it is the right person.

Unless others here think it might be a good option i feel like as soon as she hears that i figured out who her therapist was and then contacted him i don't see anything good coming from it if anything she will just use it against me.

Plan for now is to continue focusing on getting rid of resentment and frustration and showing more empathy towards the woman i love.

Her birthday is in 2 days she's received the package and i've sent her a decent amount of money for the next month or so with enough for her to spend on her birthday.

Will send her an email on her birthday just wishing her happy birthday and to have a good day etc nothing more and will have flowers delivered to her.

I'll wait 1-2 weeks speak with her father about organizing a call to hear her voice low conflict not talking about marriage etc or ask if his willing to help mediate to improve the situation or if he can ask her what needs to be done on my end for us to have communication again.

If he helps great ill go from there if he refuses / does not respond i will write an apology email laying out what im apologizing for how it impacted her and asking her to forgive me for the things ive done wrong and ask for her to give me the opportunity to correct were i went wrong when we were together. (i'll ask here first for help to write it in a good format)

After that i will leave it for a month or longer (my birthday is mid november so will see if she completely ignores me or reaches out)

"Unless others here think it might be a good option i feel like as soon as she hears that i figured out who her therapist was and then contacted him i don't see anything good coming from it if anything she will just use it against me."

Ok so let's pretend you are the intended target here. How would you feel? How would you respond?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[understandBPD]

Ok so let's pretend you are the intended target here. How would you feel? How would you respond?

Would make me more angry especially if i've lied to the therapist then my husband/wife came into the picture able to show i was fabricating a story.

But like i said i agree its not a good idea and can't see how that would help at all and i am certain there are many other options that could yield a more positive outcome.

[once removed]

Plan for now is to continue focusing on getting rid of resentment and frustration and showing more empathy towards the woman i love.

it is the emotionally mature strategy.

all of us here understand the difficulty of loving someone with bpd traits. for me, it was the greatest challenge of my life. there are moments im proud of, but man, i got my ass kicked. and especially at the end, she did a number of things i did nothing to deserve, that i would chalk up to really nothing but poor character. i can understand why she did them, and its not like i cant fill a thread with the poor ways in which i treated her, all of which had to do with the breakdown of our relationship, but there isnt a justification for some of the the things she did. she stole from me. if anyone tried to tell me i had a role in that, id tell them theyre out of their mind.

many years ago now, a member came here who was having difficulty with her marriage. i dont remember the specifics, but she had ongoing conflict with her husband, and was on the cusp of splitting up. in her hurt, she was having a lot of trouble with the advice she was getting. it felt, to her, like blame. her hurt was real. she was wronged. but when another member asked her "do you want to be right, or do you want to save your marriage?", things started to click for her. she started to look at the conflict differently.

there are all sorts of common conflict that kill marriages (whether mental illness is present or not). for example, fights over money is one of the most common, and one of the biggest marriage killers. i named others in a previous post.

what actually kills the marriage isnt the conflict, but the inability to resolve it. there are lots of couples out there, for example, who fight more than average, but have a healthy and happy relationship, because at the end of the day, they resolve conflict in a way that works for them. even if they have a lot of it.

it is the need to be right that ultimately drives conflict, and makes it hard to resolve.

dont get me wrong. i believe there are hills to die on. for example, if i marry someone who agrees with me that we want to have children, and she then changes her mind, there are not a lot of fixes or compromises for that conflict. either one of us gives, or we have irreconcilable differences (or, for that matter, one of us gives, and permanently resents the sacrifice). it largely depends on how committed we both are to our position. our independent values vs our interdependent values. if having kids is an uncompromisable position for me, and not having them is uncompromisable for her, its hard to see where we bridge that gap. if it were a disagreement over who cooks dinner, that would probably not kill the relationship, because thats likely not a hill to die on for either of us.

im 36, as well. ive never been married, so ive never been through this, specifically, but its not too hard for me to imagine that if my wife left me, went to another country, and refused to speak to me, i would be beside myself. certainly, i would have gone to lengths to speak to her. while i think its important to critically and objectively understand how things got to the point, who is right or wrong, what caused any of it, would have little to no bearing on how i felt. i would feel abandoned, and betrayed, and id also feel scared and out of control, like i would if my child were missing. and i would probably do just about anything just to bring her home.

as your support system, we are in a tricky position ourselves. if all we do is validate your hurt, we run the risk of further polarizing the conflict. or, for example, if we were to start attacking your wife, well, you might feel less alone in your hurt for a time, but if you love her and want to reconcile with her, we would sort of be acting like the devil on your shoulder, and youd probably rightfully start to resent it. and of course, if we minimize your hurt, or dont acknowledge it at all, its pretty hard to build trust, right? we dont know your wife, so it doesnt make much sense to jump on her side, we wouldnt be credible, and we wouldnt be serving you.

there are moving parts to conflict. often times, a two person system (a marriage or relationship) will cope by adding a third party to that conflict. the addition of that third party can be good or bad - stabilizing or destabilizing.

in this case, the relationship has reached the point of stonewalling, and both of you have added another party.

we dont know, exactly, how the party she has added is acting. we can assume that that party has her best interests in mind, but also, as her support system, has primarily her interests in mind. they may be toxic, they may be outstanding, they may just be doing their job. we dont really know.

personally, i wouldnt see her being in pretty much any mental health support environment as a major threat to your marriage. whether they have a bias against you or not, they will be working to help her reach a baseline of stability. if they overplay their hand and try to push her against you in a way that doesnt make sense to her, that will likely reveal itself. sort of like when you feel like we are telling you that youre to blame, you push back.

your hurt is as at least as important part in this equation as hers. continuing my "if she came back tomorrow" scenario, you would still have your hurt. you wouldnt trust her. youd be afraid of it happening again. its probably essential for you to feel and process that hurt in order to repair the marriage (whether, and to what extent, she is able to be a part of that is independent.)

what we, as your support system, are trying to do, is strike that balance between acknowledging and working with your hurt and asking you to what extent you are willing to let that hurt deteriorate your marriage. we are asking, in essence, whether youd rather be right, or save your marriage. its not unreasonable that sometimes, that can feel like blame. for that matter, its not necessarily unreasonable to say youd rather be right.

but the need to be right is what drives conflict, and unresolved conflict is what kills relationships major and minor. even determining that the conflict is unresolvable and walking away from the relationship is letting go of the need to be right. but the prioritization of our wounds (while reasonable for a time) over resolving the conflict, is the perpetuation of it.

i realize that telling you that, and restating it, as a response to your hurt, can feel dismissive. it might kind of feel like being told "get over it". i want to be clear that i dont think thats what anyone is saying. its that in order to resolve the conflict, you will necessarily have to make it, at least for now, a lower priority. she may be able to acknowledge it at some point, or she may never be able to. certainly, whether she is or isnt, you need a healthy outlet to process that hurt, which can come in many forms, including here.

part of processing and prioritizing that hurt, when youre feeling it the most, part of focusing on getting rid of resentment and showing more empathy to the woman you love, is asking yourself "would i rather be right, or save my marriage". because if you answer it honestly, it will always tell you what to do.

Her birthday is in 2 days she's received the package and i've sent her a decent amount of money for the next month or so with enough for her to spend on her birthday.

Will send her an email on her birthday just wishing her happy birthday and to have a good day etc nothing more and will have flowers delivered to her.

I'll wait 1-2 weeks speak with her father about organizing a call to hear her voice low conflict not talking about marriage etc or ask if his willing to help mediate to improve the situation or if he can ask her what needs to be done on my end for us to have communication again.

If he helps great ill go from there if he refuses / does not respond i will write an apology email laying out what im apologizing for how it impacted her and asking her to forgive me for the things ive done wrong and ask for her to give me the opportunity to correct were i went wrong when we were together. (i'll ask here first for help to write it in a good format)

After that i will leave it for a month or longer (my birthday is mid november so will see if she completely ignores me or reaches out)

this seems like a pretty solid overall plan to me. i really think if you send a birthday wish with no attachments, that it will catch her off guard, and plant a seed. i do also think that like Skip said, any seed you plant may take some time to grow. dont underestimate that. simply not acting, or changing gears, if weve been doing anything that works against us, can have a really powerful effect, and be the start of reversing the damage, but dont expect that to happen over night, or even for a long time. think of it as an investment.

in that light, im curious what others think about the timeline. im of the mind that its less the date and time of the contact, and more the nature and timing...whether it serves you, or whether its too much, too soon. for example, while i think trying to establish communication with/through her father is a great idea, im not sure id go with the apology so soon after trying to talk with him if it doesnt go well. it might look like trying too hard, or throwing a hail mary. that could look like pushing too hard to talk to her, which you dont want to do.