Flipping backwards and forwards is it me

[CravingPeace]

My wife is in therapy and isn't diagnosed, I ask her what she has shared with the therapist. But she hasn't shared all the details that I think would allow a diagnosis and get her help.

I know I have enabled a lot of the behaviour by being scared to push back and call her out, due to the reaction and getting used to always being told I am the problem. I am working on boundaries. But sometimes I think maybe I am just as big a part of the problem from what she has said.

I guess I am mostly venting while searching for answers. I know I went away to school and boarded at a young age and there is something called boarding school syndrome. Partners of others with the sydrome often complain of aloofness from ex boarders, and feeling lonely in relationships due to the abandonment by parents and the isolation the kids go through at school. But how much is me and how much is her. I still have a good relationship with my parents, whereas she doesnt talk fondly of hers. (Divorce at 13 Dad basically abandoned, Mum Narcassist etc). My parents were not perfect, like I said sent me to school even though I hated it, and it was never massively emotional at home. But they always helped me, supported me etc, were never cruel to me.

On my side previous partners never said the same complaints about me (being lonely and that I was selfish) albeit the two girlfriends I had previously before marriage never lasted more than 2 years, as I broke it off as didn't feel the relationships were going anywhere. . I have alot of friends going back 30 years and no issues with work.

She has a track record of broken relationships, trouble at work, multiple jobs, quitting frequently. Often I used to have to go in to help sort problems, her dad says before me he had to! Always the same pattern at work and in friendship, loves it or them for first month or so, then the complaints start to happen, until something "big" happens and she cuts and runs.

It makes me nervous looking back as she called me perfect and her favouritest in the first few months clear identifiers for BPD. But how bad is she and what if its me too? What if I do make partners feel lonely. I do like my own time (which apparently is often selfish and putting me first and not her). She did have an affair when we were engaged as I was working long hours and she said she thought I was having an affair and wa slonely. She admits to sometimes self sabbotage. Now when we talk about that time she says it was not an affair. At the time I remember her crying and saying "I had an affair".

Honestly it is just hard. The other day for example she said can we go and take photos tomorrow with the kids in the morning for the fall colors I said sure. In the morning there was a big sports match I wanted to see, it had 20 mins left (I rarely watch sport but this one sport if there is a big tourament once a year or so. I said can I just watch the end of the game (it was 11am) , this is after I had made breakfast for everyone (3 kids etc). She said well the light will be in the wrong place we need to be there in the morning (the first I had heard of this light requirement). Anyway I made sure we got there for 1130am so still morning and I only delayed by 20 minutes. She proceeded to moan the entire time. It was a beautiful day. This is stupid, this is pointless. Giving me one word answers. Its the wrong time of day. We are too late. Obviously wanting me to know she was not happy I wanted to watch the last 20 mins of the sport without directly saying it to me. To me isn't it a compromise. She wants to go in the morning. I agree but I want to watch a bit of a game. We meet in the middle and go 20 mins later. If she had said the dsay before she wanted to go at 11am not 1130am then we could have discussed. To her, I had ruined what she wanted to do. I tried to remain positive as our kids ran around loving it. I said well lets take from different angles to get the right light. She continued to moan this tree has too many branches, this one not red enough etc etc. It had to be the trees and the angle she wanted and now the light was wrong. Meanwhile the kids are running around loving it. It ruined the entire walk. And we got some great photos. Maybe not the exact one she had imagined in her head, but loads of really nice ones. I even suggested we could go back in the evening when the light would be even better. But no, it should have been earlier in the morning. My 20 minutes obviously ruined it. This is a kind of standard example.

I am trying really hard to work out where my issues start, and hers begin etc. I am trying to get a therapist that specialises in Boarding School sydrome , and I know I can't fix her but I wish she would tell the therapist everything as if she did a diagnosis of BPD should be pretty clear.

But I guess the question is how do you work out what you are responsible for and what is her/or him?  What if her complaints are right I make partners feel lonely?
Also I find it really hard to be emotional with her now? I always craved kissing etc, but the amount of times she has turned away from me when I tried to kiss her, or complained if I then kissed her on the head. The sex rejections I just don't feel intimate or I even want to be? (But she would say I rejected her 15 years ago by saying no?) - What if I did reject her or make her feel bad. I just dont remember such a long time ago.

Just feeling a but lost. I kind of feel these are mostly her issues but what if I am wrong?

Thanks all!

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[Pook075]

First off, welcome to the forums and thank you for sharing.  The quick, easy answer is that you're probably not the problem since you have enough empathy to consider that this could be because of you.  I'll take a few stabs at other points you bring up as well.

My wife is in therapy and isn't diagnosed, I ask her what she has shared with the therapist. But she hasn't shared all the details that I think would allow a diagnosis and get her help.

Your wife has to work through this at her own pace, because the realization that there could be something there has to come from within.  This can be frustrating but you have to let the therapist work at your wife's pace. 

If there's something you feel like they need to know though, then feel free to reach out and it's possible they'll talk to you in order to hear your concerns.  As a spouse, you're allowed to do that and it's generally helpful for mental health professionals to hear from a loved on.  Just know that your spouse will probably feel betrayed and if she goes to extremes, it could cause her to quit going to therapy.  So you must handle this discreetly and with caution.

I know I have enabled a lot of the behaviour by being scared to push back and call her out, due to the reaction and getting used to always being told I am the problem. I am working on boundaries. But sometimes I think maybe I am just as big a part of the problem from what she has said.

Learning how to respond to BPD's is a big part of the challenge, and this site is full of practical ways to diffuse situations before they become full blown problems.  Read the links along the top of the page to get started.   

This is about how you feel and what you need to protect yourself (and her) in this relationship.  A phrase like, "I can see how upset this makes you are and I do not want to argue.  I love you and support you, but it feels like we need a break.  So I'm going to step away for 15 minutes to cool off."

I guess I am mostly venting while searching for answers. I know I went away to school and boarded at a young age and there is something called boarding school syndrome.

I don't know anything about the syndrome, so my comments aren't directed to that.  But if we're honest, we all have drama from our past that makes it hard to do something.  For instance, the smell of Jack Daniels makes me instantly nauseous from drinking way too much of it one night over 30 years ago.  That doesn't mean I'm broken...it's just a part of me.

Maybe you're more of a loner at times...I'm that way too.  But that doesn't mean you can't also be a loving, caring person in a relationship.

Now when we talk about that time she says it was not an affair. At the time I remember her crying and saying "I had an affair".

BPD's will often alter their memories to fit the agenda that's currently cycling through their mind.  I had a few instances where my wife told me something and then insisted that I was a liar when I repeated it.  It's possible she was disassociated when she said it or she's disassociated now and seeing things through a different lens...who knows.  But you have to let it go if you want the relationship to recover.  Forgive her and forget it.

I know that's so much harder than it sounds, but you have two choices- fight about it until the relationship falls apart, or forgive her and allow yourself to heal from it.  The forgiveness is ultimately for you.

But I guess the question is how do you work out what you are responsible for and what is her/or him?  What if her complaints are right I make partners feel lonely?

If my toe hurt from a small cut, what would you tell me to do?  If I had headache, what would you tell me to do? And if I told you my wife feels lonely, what would you tell me to do?

You're thinking of this in black and white, like you're made of stone and it's impossible to change.  If your wife feels lonely, give her more attention.  See if she shifts the goalposts by saying you're too clingy.  The real answer here is probably that you're both somewhat right- you could give her more attention and she could be more understanding that you need some space at times.

What if I did reject her or make her feel bad. I just dont remember such a long time ago.

The simple answer here is that you're not perfect.  Neither am I.  But if that's a major sticking point in your wife's head, then ease those concerns by apologizing.  Tell her that you can't change the past and you didn't mean to hurt her, but you can change the present by trying harder to meet her needs.  Again, the answer here is forgiveness...can she forgive you and let it go?  Can you forgive her and learn to better understand her emotional needs?  It's a two-way street.

This is impossibly hard and it will take practice to make things better.  But you can get there over time and your relationship can change.  Keep your head up, focus on what you need to be the best you, and show her love and compassion for what she's going through.  I hope that helps a little bit.

[Steppenwolf]

I am going through a similar phase. Your wife and mine sound extremely similar in terms of how they handle situations etc. Ever since I came here, I found some people that experienced pwBPD that were somewhat similar, but this really is much closer than most posts I read so far. Well, there are some details that differ, but anyway.

I struggle with the same question right now. Is it me or is it her? The advice I got in response to another thread was that this question is really pointless. But it is so hard, when I am thoroughly confused and cannot get my head off it.

I guess being told over and over, that we are the problem, eventually wears us down. It's can be a form of gaslighting. I just had a similar episode this evening, where she accused me of manipulating our D6 into fearing her. It's hard to maintain your own perception when it is under heavy attack by someone who is so skilled, they can even warp their own perception. I think that is part of the reason, why the question is pointless. To them, it will always be us who is responsible (except when my uBPDw goes into insecure mode, then everything is completely her fault).


As for the minor incidents that lead to a complete rejection of a situation etc. I had this happen a lot to us. With my wife, if she expects something to be a certain way, it has to be that way 100% no imperfections or she won't accept it. Those twenty minutes you mentioned, we had a lot of those and it always creates a lot of trouble. It doesn't even matter if it is me who is responsible for these imperfections or if it is just an accident. And once a thing has been ruined for her by small imperfections, the best things might happen, she just won't be able to enjoy them until everything is back in order.

It would be interesting if your wife also has the same issues where she deeply feels unsatisfied with what she gets in life and even jealous of others for getting what they want. With my W, she often complains that other people get things their way and she never does and she feels profoundly sad about this. I tried to point out to her, how others just accept the small imperfections and still see the mostly good over small little bad things. But it isn't anything she can even remotely relate to.

With my wife joking about it a little in my head and (very carefully) in front of her. Like I said in front of the kids she's just the type of person who can find soup in anybody's hair and that I really love her for this. It's not even a lie because I have found that this is really a part that is complicated at many times and can be extremely frustrating but at the same time that really makes her special.

[CravingPeace]

Thanks Pook075 helpful thoughts. I guess the issue on forgiveness is yes I believe I can, if their is honesty. Particularly about the affair, but there never was, and all sorts of blame was put on me and the person she had the affair with.
My concern is if it happened once has it happened again? I don't think so but it still concerns me. The trust kind of got broken. I have lived with it for ten years and never mentioned it until recently but I guess I haven't really healed from the breach in trust. The weird explanations at the time, blaming me, blaming the other party which I accepted, now I see all these other issues have resurfaced. On her side she never forgets or forgives. Friends, family or me. Her family say she is like an elephant once you have wronger her that is it, struck off. I am suprised I have not been struck off yet. I wonder sometimes if it is because I am the financial provider, and she doesn't seem to have the ability to earn for herself. Or the desire.

SteppenWolf Thanks 100%. If she makes up in her head how something will happen in the future, and gets all excited about it. When it doesn't she gets very very upset, it's like the whole world has collapsed. This is something that never happened and was just her imagination! There would be no talking her down on it to help, she has to process it on her own I have learned and I need to stay out the way. In terms of dissatisfaction. She does get very jealous. Eve of me. Defianatly my family, to the point she makes unfair statements on their intents or why they do things. If I defend them, or say that is not how I understood it then its me thats bad for not backing her, or I have some issue where I cant see fault in them. I didn't quite follow your last statement about finding soup in anyones hair? What does this mean?

[Pook075]

If she makes up in her head how something will happen in the future, and gets all excited about it. When it doesn't she gets very very upset, it's like the whole world has collapsed.

My friend, be careful of this line of thinking.  While it may feel valid from your viewpoint, I almost guarantee you that those feelings are very real to your spouse.  In her mind, maybe her whole world did collapse.  Can you imagine how that would feel?

Now, I get it.  Maybe she got excited over something silly and it fell through.  That's not a reason to get hysterical.  But when you're unstable and dealing with a world of hurt and pain (the vast majority of which you're hiding from everyone), it could be a scenario where it's the last straw that breaks the camel's back.

Quick story.  A few weeks back, I was cutting the lawn and ran out of gas.  I was a good 150 yards from the house, so I walked up to get the gas can.  It was empty, so I went inside to get my keys.  My kid has used my car though, so the keys weren't where they were supposed to be.  Twenty minutes later, I have my keys and I'm now in a bad mood.  I go to leave for the gas station but my kid wants me to order us Subway (it's in the gas station), so I order on the app.  My kid can't make up her mind though and changes her sub like 8 times.  Now I'm in a really bad mood and fighting hard not to show it.  But I finally leave for gas and Subway.

I get to the gas station and start filling the gas tank, and I see trash in my backseat from when the kid borrowed the car.  So I'm getting that out but I bump the gas nozzle, it flips out of the tank and sprays all over my side....I'm soaked in gas from my neck to my ankle.  By this point, I'm ready to kill somebody...I'm filled with rage.  But I take a few breaths and calm down.  This too shall pass, LOL.  So I go inside to get the subs.

The attendant, however, refuses to serve me because I'm covered in gas.  I state the obvious- "i know, and I'd really like to get my food and go home."  I see my subs on the back counter, but the subway worker just keep complaining about how horrible the smell is.  Now people are staring at me and whispering comments, and I'm thinking that I just want to finish cutting my grass before it's dark out.  I had to call my kid to come get the subs because they wouldn't give them to me.

I get outside and realize that I'm not getting in my car covered in gas.  It's mostly dried by now but the smell is still super strong.  So I get a towel out of the trunk area, then strip to my boxers and wear just the towel home.  The car still reeked of gas for two days, but at least I felt like I did something proactive and got the clothes off my skin.  The drive home was uneventful.

As I pull in my driveway, the neighbor comes over to gossip.  I don't gossip, I just don't talk about other people.  So I tried to be polite and say I had to go inside....I am wearing a beach towel in my car after all...but the neighbor just keeps talking.  I can't get out because I'm practically naked, which is something I don't want to talk to the neighbor about.  So I just sit there and listen to her tell me about this neighbor and that one, and all her little theories on who's the worst neighbor this week (all my neighbors are nice, caring people).  After 7 minutes, she finally says, "What's that smell?"

My response to the neighbor was downright nasty, something I'd never normally say to anyone. But in that moment, after spending almost 80 minutes trying to get back to cutting my yard, it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I shared that to say this- everyone is going through something in life that everyone else knows absolutely nothing about.  I was 100% wrong in how I acted in the above example, but you can see that one unfair setback after another led to a tragic (somewhat hilarious) ending.  We never know what someone else might be dealing with.

[Steppenwolf]

If she makes up in her head how something will happen in the future, and gets all excited about it. When it doesn't she gets very very upset, it's like the whole world has collapsed.

Yes, this is exactly how I feel very often with my W. I found that sometimes it actually works, if I am completely unresponsive to her mood during these times. I am not invalidating, not validating, just treating her like a moody little child. It's actually a trick I picked up from the kids, and sometimes it works to snap her out of it. But that only really works if she is mad about the situation or someone else, not when she is currently blaming me.

There would be no talking her down on it to help, she has to process it on her own I have learned and I need to stay out the way.

Yeah, talking to her about this 100% does not work. Never did. Trying to point out all the good things that we/she got and that these might cancel the one bad thing... No way. She described it to me very clearly, that one bad aspect can completely ruin something for her.

I was in another relationship with a pwBPD before, and she had the full black and white thinking in many areas. My wife usually doesn't, especially not when it comes to people, we call it more like a dark-grey and white thinking. But when it comes to these moments, it's all black and white.

I didn't quite follow your last statement about finding soup in anyones hair? What does this mean?

Well, it likely doesn't translate well. I try to use humor and often it shows her, that I do love her, even if these moments are hard. You know that there are people who'll always find a hair in the soup? I think there are sayings like that in many languages. So I just turn it around, she then laughs about it and it makes it easier for her to accept that this is hard for me to deal with.


Another recurring point I make is that she must be somehow related to a squirrel. She just loves to buy gifts (and sometimes other stuff) when it is on sale. I don't know anyone who buys gifts several years in advance, just because they are on sale. I mean, we still have a large stash of baby gifts, in case one of the friends or anybody just decides to have another baby. Obviously, it doesn't always work as she expects, because, well, you can't really predict children's interest several years in advance. But so far, we have often found some other kid who was happy with the gift. Not sure if this is somehow related to her condition, but it is definitely not typical (but in a loving nice way). The reason I call her a squirrel is because she is absolutely abysmal at hiding stuff. She either hides it too well, so she'll forget about it ("Hey, remember your nephew's birthday a year ago? I just found a gift that was meant for him last year. Do you think he'll still like it this year?"). Or she'll hide them in the most obvious place possible, so the kids will find it and ask us who it is for and if they can maybe have it now. Oh, and she also happened to give a friend the same gift two years in a row ("yeah, that game was on sale, so I got five. I mean, I will find someone to give it to." we still have at least two of those lying around somewhere). It's kind of reckless spending but at the same she is weirdly controlled with it. It's always stuff on sale, and she really compares prices for a long time to see if she really gets a bargain, but then she sometimes buys absurd quantities of stuff.

Sorry for the tangent, it's just something that a lot of people who witness this behavior find absolutely fascinating, and I do love her for this.

Yeah, but using humor with these things helps me to accept her for who she is, and it helps her to notice that this might be hard for others. Like, for a while, we really could not find any more places to put all those gifts she bought and the kids repeatedly found stuff they wanted. So I first started telling the kids that their mum must be related to a squirrel, and when they talked to her about it, she actually managed to laugh about it. So now she uses this joke herself. But in this case, it works best, because it's one of the few traits she likes about herself, and is even somewhat proud of this, as we are always prepared for anybody's birthday. You can't get this family with surprise invitations!

[CravingPeace]

Oh My Gosh. Are you sure we are not married to the same woman! I used to call her a magpie as she collects all sorts of  things.

She is amazing at finding deals. We have always loads of birthday cards, there are boxes and boxes of seasonal decorations, I didnt realiae there were so many different holidays to decorate for!  I do find it a bit frustrating if I am honest. The house gets kinda full of just stuff and I am not the tidiest! I like a minimal house as easy to find stuff and less things to mess up! And yes often bought in bulk. Apparently you need 100 toilet rolls at once. She has recently accepted it is a problem cos you cannot literally get into our basement.

[Steppenwolf]

Oh My Gosh. Are you sure we are not married to the same woman! I used to call her a magpie as she collects all sorts of  things.

She is amazing at finding deals. We have always loads of birthday cards, there are boxes and boxes of seasonal decorations, I didnt realiae there were so many different holidays to decorate for!  I do find it a bit frustrating if I am honest. The house gets kinda full of just stuff and I am not the tidiest! I like a minimal house as easy to find stuff and less things to mess up! And yes often bought in bulk. Apparently you need 100 toilet rolls at once. She has recently accepted it is a problem cos you cannot literally get into our basement.

Yeah, I don't think they are the same person, but maybe separated at birth? There are some distinct but subtle differences. My W doesn't really care about seasonal decorations at all. But she absolutely loves stuffed animals. We had visitors come over before telling us that we really have a lot of stuffed animals for the children. She usually then gets a face like a child who has been caught stealing cookies and admits that most of those are hers. I really don't know anyone else who can go from mature adult behavior to acting like a little child within seconds as she does in those moments.

If it's OK for you, I'll just share some more. I am currently working through the high conflict couple, and this helps me to really relate better my loveable yet totally frustrating W. There is a section on how important it is to remember relationship goals and how much one usually loves the person that one is sometimes fighting with, that hurts us and that we also hurt frequently.

Since I looked into BPD, I just realized that many things I previously found frustrating and sometimes dominating are much closer to the loving and caring side of her than I previously had seen. Before, I often talked about how I was in a relationship with Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Hyde, but I have gotten to understand that these are not so much two different personas she is showing but rather two different extreme representations of the same underlying person... The best example is that she cares a lot about the well-being of the kids. And then she yells at them aggressively if they won't go to bed and want to stay up longer, which absolutely does not work. I mean which kid would calm down from being yelled at by their mother? But it's weird, because when I talk to her about it she says she does it, because she cares about the kids and wants them to get enough sleep so they will be able to do well in school. But at the same, she is absolutely in rage when she does it, and can easily split me to black and ask for a divorce if I try to stop her when she tries to yell the kids to bed.

It's somehow as if she's producing a constant well-meaning stream of self-sabotaging behavior, that absolutely does not get her or anybody else in the family what we want, and when it has wreaked total havoc, someone else (mostly me) has to step in and get it back to a state where it is actually working. It's so weird because it is absolutely destructive and simultaneously caring and loving.

But knowing that a lot of her frustrating traits might really just be a form of weird loving self-sabotage makes it easier for me to see the loving and caring person she can be, even during frustrating times.


So, this exchange her made me smile and I told her how much I love her yesterday and how much I really want to make this family work. It's hard for me right now, because we just lately went through a lot of stuff, and I just don't know if I am mentally and emotionally able to handle this situation and what I really need to do to protect the kids. But seeing that loving person in her gives me strength to carry through this and to look for a way to improve the situation.


I love her weirdness, but she is also able to combine these traits in an absolutely self-destructive and self-hurting way. As I said, for her to not be completely dissatisfied with something, it has to be perfect. She absolutely loves to get a bargain on things as well. But once she has bought something, she really can't stop thinking about it and she will definitely look for a cheaper offer. And once she finds it (which of course happens often) she immediately rejects what she bought and dislikes it. It is so absolutely self-destructive. I tried stopping her a couple of times, when I noticed she was tense and was about to look for cheaper deals on something she just bought, by just hugging her and telling her I wouldn't let go until she relaxed and promised not to look for deals. But then frequently she comes back from her computer to me, with a sad child's face that I immediately recognize and I know I just can comfort her because she is acting like a sad little child. Not sure if this counts as enabling behavior, but it's so weird, as if she knows she's hurting herself emotionally, but absolutely unable to stop and I don't know how I can really help her. Sometimes she finds something on sale reduced further from when she bought it, and there were even a couple of times when I had to return something for her (she feels socially insecure in a lot of situations), just so she could buy the same thing again and save a few bucks. I am working on setting boundaries around such behaviors because they can take up a lot of time, but I am still figuring out how to do this so we won't get into a fight because she feels as if I am not supporting her. But if I don't do it, and completely try to avoid the fights, these behaviors can take up so much energy and time, that at if I don't try to manage them we both are barely able to handle anything else, even up to a point where it impacts our ability to work.

It's also like she somehow tries to build some kind of surrogate identity around getting and keeping things. She sometimes says in a sense she doesn't really know who she is or who she wants to be, doesn't have any goals, etc. A few years ago, while we were cleaning I found some leftover paper napkins and plates from a birthday party she organized for me seven years earlier. The party was seven years before I discovered those again hidden in some overstuffed drawer, that I couldn't open any more due to the amount of stuff in it (we have a lot of those). She had moved four times since then, so she must have kept them all these years through multiple changes of place. I just barely suggested we could throw these out as we hadn't used them in any other parties etc, but it led to her immediately splitting me to dark grey, attacking me, and questioning the whole relationship. So yeah, my W is the type of person, who decides she wants a divorce and wants to leave me and the kids, all over me suggesting we could throw away a few paper napkins she bought seven years earlier. But when I try to talk to her about these things, then of course I and the kids are to blame for any problems we have, and all would be fine, if we would just take part in the way she handles things. And because of these weird loving-caring self- and family-destructive behaviors, I sometimes get caught up in this and question my own feelings.

I really do love her a lot, but why does this have to be so frustrating and destructive? Why is she so absolutely unable to see, that what she is doing often does not work at all and instead wreaks total havoc? I sometimes think the stuff she went through in her family in part caused this weird behavior that often seems very similar to stuff exhibited by other pwBPD but also often really different.

[CravingPeace]

Yeah, I don't think they are the same person, but maybe separated at birth? There are some distinct but subtle differences

Yeah totally. Was just joking but very interesting similarities.

. My W doesn't really care about seasonal decorations at all. But she absolutely loves stuffed animals.

If I told you my kids have a bed full of stuffed toys would it sound similar. Around 40. Although they arent really hers.

I mean which kid would calm down from being yelled at by their mother?

I would say my wife is a good mother and tries her best. She just gets overwhelmed and does things like shouting "everyone f off" to me and the kids. Everyone go away and shutup. It happens rarely like once a month or so. I used to just leave and let it slide. But I am making sure boundaries are maintained. Last time I waited till she calmed down then explained it was not acceptable. She looked confused and said what did I mean. I said swearing like that is not acceptable. She said "but you always do it" (I don't). I didn't engage on that point using JADE. I just said "I do not want our kids thinking that abusive language is acceptable". She then agreed and walked off and came back later calm. In the past I would have argued that I didnt ever say that and it would have been a circular argument for 30 mins to an hour.

A few years ago, while we were cleaning I found some leftover paper napkins and plates from a birthday party she organized for me seven years earlier. The party was seven years before I discovered those again hidden in some overstuffed drawer, that I couldn't open any more due to the amount of stuff in it (we have a lot of those).

So remember when I talked about holiday decorations this also includes birthday. We have boxes full of happy birthday signs, and decorations, candles. Like I get having one set would be useful but we have around 30 sets. Including napkins and plates. I think it provides her some comfort. I think when her parents divorced and even before she felt abandoned. She didnt have anywhere safe for her things. SO now she likes to collect things and store them and keep them safe. Its very sad really . But it causes me a great deal of stress, due to all the waste of money, all the storage. Every time we move having to lug boxes and boxes of tatt. I have enabled it a long time, but we have started to have serious conversations about it. About the fact we cant use the basement. The garage was full of junk. She used to resist and get very angry. But recently she has started to accept that is is stressfull and takes up too much time managing all the stuff. She worked with me to clear the garage, and I was proud of her.

She had moved four times since then, so she must have kept them all these years through multiple changes of place. I just barely suggested we could throw these out as we hadn't used them in any other parties etc, but it led to her immediately splitting me to dark grey, attacking me, and questioning the whole relationship. So yeah, my W is the type of person, who decides she wants a divorce and wants to leave me and the kids, all over me suggesting we could throw away a few paper napkins she bought seven years earlier. But when I try to talk to her about these things, then of course I and the kids are to blame for any problems we have, and all would be fine, if we would just take part in the way she handles things. And because of these weird loving-caring self- and family-destructive behaviors, I sometimes get caught up in this and question my own feelings.

It has taken over ten years of these conversations. Every time she would split me too. Stop talking to me for a long time. But like I say something must have changed when we cleared the garage together. It was still hard for her to let go of some things, but I just think she could see the problems it was causing. Then she had a near death experience, and said she felt so guilty if she died I would have to clear all her junk/stuff on my own we should just get a skip and through it away. Again big progress.

I really do love her a lot, but why does this have to be so frustrating and destructive? Why is she so absolutely unable to see, that what she is doing often does not work at all and instead wreaks total havoc? I sometimes think the stuff she went through in her family in part caused this weird behavior that often seems very similar to stuff exhibited by other pwBPD but also often really different.

Lets dig into this we might see a trend. My wifes mother is a narcissist. Not diagnosed but is plain to see massive victim, always uses social media to make her self good, only calls my wife to moan. Is never there for my wife. Makes belittling and degrading comments, and is always negative ,. Her dad left when she was 13, with another women. My wife took the brunt of her mums bitterness. She was effectively homeless and bad stuff happened. Frankly the abandonment happened before she was 13, constant digs from her mum, and her dad enabling and not stopping it. She ended up with an eating disorder. When we met she told me I was perfect and her favouritest. Clear signs of BPD looking back. I also love her dearly, and when I make her feel safe and cuddle her and validate her she is the sweetest person and would do anything. But she pushes me away or makes remarks or belittles me I go distant , then things spiral downwards. Its like she wants to push me away and hurt me just to see me fight for her. It is very exhausting but I do my best because I do believe she is a good person under her issues. I am not perfect. I believe I have some less severe abandonment issues, fear of rejection, wanting to save and be the hero. This is what kept me around. But now I am around I want it to work. Its been 15 years and 3 kids so I cant give up now. But I can change me, inforce boundaries call out bad behaviour, love myself. Protect my kids from the 5% of bad stuff she does when she is overwhelmed. Just like I would expect her to do to me. Example: The other day I had a hard day at work, I got home to take the kids. My middle son carried a glass of water filled to the top in a plastic champagne flute. I told him to fill it less and get a regular cup so it wouln't get knocked over. He ignored me. Two kids started fighting, one knocked the water all over his meal and me. The baby I was holding so I couldnt eat my meal was screaming at me. I said just shutup to the baby in a loud voice. Who does that? I apologized immediately, but I can see I am not perfect. My wife had told us all to shutup an hour before. Was that still in my head? Or was it unrelated I dont know. So I need to work on me too

[Pook075]

Lets dig into this we might see a trend. My wifes mother is a narcissist. Not diagnosed but is plain to see massive victim, always uses social media to make her self good, only calls my wife to moan. Is never there for my wife.

I also see a trend between my BPD-ex, my BPD daughter, and my mother in law who showed similar tendencies. 

But here's the thing, it's not helpful to reach the conclusion, "They're messed up and just born this way."  While their may be some truth to it, BPD tendencies come from a learned behavior based on fears of abandonment and low self-worth.  It's simply thinking a different way...not always a healthy way...and reaching poor conclusions that ultimately lead to bad decisions. 

People with BPD lash out not because they're bad people or that they want to be mean, it's a self-defense mechanism based on their internal pain.  The closer you are to someone with BPD, the better the chances that they'll behave poorly because they love you and trust you.  But at the same time, their minds will tell them the opposite when they're dysregulated and that self-doubt becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

I wonder if he loves me since what he did just hurt.  I can't show him that he hurt me though so I'll just lash out and see if validates my anger (over something you know nothing about).  Yup, I knew it, he doesn't love me and that just proved it.

They go through this type of cycle all the time and while we rarely see where the toxic stuff comes from, it is valid in their minds from something you said/did/whatever.  In my case as we separated last year, it was something I did almost 20 years ago that was earning her rage.

It is completely unfair and completely maddening at times, but the way to get past it is going up to the example in italics.  When they first become dysregulated and start to lash out, ignore the actual words and realize that the anger comes from internal pain.  Your spouse is hurting...so what should you do?  Comfort that pain and reassure her.  Tell you that you love her and you're there for her, and you'd love to talk it out to help her feel more secure.

I know that sounds ridiculous and counter-productive- why should you be more loving when you're being abused?  That's the whole game though, reinforcing love and compassion even when it's not deserved.  That allows the anger to fade and the relationship to continue in a healthy way.

I hope that helps!

[Steppenwolf]

I would say my wife is a good mother and tries her best. She just gets overwhelmed and does things like shouting "everyone f off" to me and the kids. Everyone go away and shutup. It happens rarely like once a month or so. I used to just leave and let it slide. But I am making sure boundaries are maintained. Last time I waited till she calmed down then explained it was not acceptable. She looked confused and said what did I mean. I said swearing like that is not acceptable. She said "but you always do it" (I don't). I didn't engage on that point using JADE. I just said "I do not want our kids thinking that abusive language is acceptable". She then agreed and walked off and came back later calm. In the past I would have argued that I didnt ever say that and it would have been a circular argument for 30 mins to an hour.

Yeah, I would also say my W is trying to be a good mother, but she really gets overwhelmed and just cannot process the complexity of the emotions sometimes. Today she got really intense with our S9. Unfortunately, he has developed some behavioral problems. She makes it out to be ADHD, but the psychiatrists all agree that his symptoms cannot be only attributed to ADHD. So he was behaving badly when she was out with the kids and I had to pick them up because the situation became unmanageable. It's also really weird because he is becoming more and more like his mom, but the more he becomes like her, the more often they get into a fight. He was the mature one of the two, after we had a really long talk and apologised for what he did to her (she didn't apologize back, though). Still, I feel really guilty as well, when I read what you wrote because I feel I was way too much enabling and you are so much ahead of me. I should have been there for the kids and myself more often and should have noticed that this situation could only get worse, without me managing it, but I just wasn't able to for various reasons. I just hope we can find a way somehow. I am still trying to get my W into therapy, but I am not sure she ever will. She's afraid a therapist might try to change her and also does not want to talk about the things that happened to her. I probably know most about her traumas, but I know she has not even talked to me about most of the stuff.

Still, I am proud of myself today, because I handled it much better. The stuff I found on this site really helped me to see my own involvement in the situation and our exchange helped me to remember how special and loveable she can be even when she was shouting at the kids. It's sad because our kids can be very sweet and helpful, but then she goes at them in a way that turns them into little monsters within seconds (I still love them even as monsters though). So our twins were in the bathtub and I was away for a moment because our S9 would not listen to a "no". During that time she went in the bathroom and yelled at the twins and when I came back they wouldn't listen to anything I said anymore. When I took them out of the tub because they were splashing water everywhere, our D6 peed on the bathroom rug because I would not let them go back into the tub. Yeah, we definitely aren't a healthy family right now, but my W claims that we are. And when there are signs we are not healthy, these don't have anything to with her behavior, and more likely I am to blame for being too nice to the children. Oh boy, it's a long way to go.

At some point, I just told her to go to bed in a forceful way and not come back until she could manage not to yell at the kids. I was surprised and expected her to get into a fight, but I guess since I remained calm before it actually worked. Still, she tried to get at me by constantly complaining that it was getting too late for the kid's bedtime and that she had gotten them to bed much earlier whenever she was alone with the kids, etc. It was really good I remained calm, because usually at that time I would have been frustrated as well and taken the bait and told her something along the lines that it is much easier to get the kids to bed when there is no one around yelling at them and breaking their toys. But this time I just used SET and told her that I knew she is worried about the kid's bedtime and that I was trying my best to get them to bed as soon as possible, they just needed a moment to calm down.

I am also proud of my kids because soon after my W left to go to bed, the kids changed and tried to really help me. Our D6 was washing her twin brother, then after bathtime, our S9 tried to support our S6 (our S9 typically doesn't get along with him) and helped to distract himself from the broken toy... It was really beautiful to watch, since before they were a bunch of (loveable) monsters trying to hurt each other and me as much as possible, and as soon as she was gone and the yelling stopped they fully supported me and each other.

We have boxes full of happy birthday signs, and decorations, candles. Like I get having one set would be useful but we have around 30 sets. Including napkins and plates. I think it provides her some comfort. I think when her parents divorced and even before she felt abandoned. She didnt have anywhere safe for her things. SO now she likes to collect things and store them and keep them safe.

My wifes mother is a narcissist. Not diagnosed but is plain to see massive victim, always uses social media to make her self good, only calls my wife to moan. Is never there for my wife. Makes belittling and degrading comments, and is always negative ,. Her dad left when she was 13, with another women. My wife took the brunt of her mums bitterness. She was effectively homeless and bad stuff happened. Frankly the abandonment happened before she was 13, constant digs from her mum, and her dad enabling and not stopping it. She ended up with an eating disorder. When we met she told me I was perfect and her favouritest. Clear signs of BPD looking back.

For my W it was mostly my MIL who was abusive. However, she wasn't physically abusive against my W, but took it out on my SIL (my W's half-sister from another mother). My SIL's mother died when she was very young, so my MIL fulfills the typical fairy-tale evil stepmother stereotype. She's somewhere in the BPD range herself, but also with extremely strong NPD tendencies. So my W didn't get physically abused, but still had to witness a lot of abuse against her sister and often felt like she had to protect her older sister. Her sister went NC for a while mostly against her mother, but as my wife was still living at home, she was included in the NC. They reconnected when I suggested she should reach out to her sister and they were really loving siblings. However, her sister committed suicide last year, and since then my W has felt guilty a lot and as if she failed at what was her purpose in life.

My W's mother also likes to buy and collect stuff, especially porcelain dolls. Now, I'll leave it to your imagination, what my W's childhood pictures look like. If you feel creeped out, then you got the correct idea. So my W was kind of a golden child, but at the same time, she was seen as defective a lot, because she has a physical disability. We think that it may have been in part caused by her mom putting more effort into keeping the house clean than resting during the final weeks of the pregnancy. My W still has a lot of issues with feeling defective and was really surprised when I was absolutely okay with other people noticing her disability during one of our first dates. At her home, neither of the sisters was allowed outside much, didn't really have friends, as other people might see the disability, etc. My W had to manage my MIL's tempers trying to protect my SIL and at the same time was emotionally abused and blackmailed by my MIL. I mean, e.g., who buys her daughter a wedding dress she doesn't like against her explicit wish and then blackmails her into wearing it? I tried to support my W not to wear that one, but she wasn't able to at that time.

My FIL was mostly unavailable and had to work night shifts a lot. Sometimes he would just throw away stuff when the house got too full without asking first, so I think that is also in part why she gets so attached to stuff. When we met she blamed most family problems on her father, because he was unavailable, but she has then become much more aware of the roles of her parents.

The garage was full of junk. She used to resist and get very angry. But recently she has started to accept that is is stressfull and takes up too much time managing all the stuff. She worked with me to clear the garage, and I was proud of her.It has taken over ten years of these conversations. Every time she would split me too. Stop talking to me for a long time.

My W seems weirdly aware, but still won't really have an open conversation about it. Just recently she wanted me to give away some used bricks from a footpath that we removed when we re-modeled our garden. So I had to put up an offer on a local website for stuff to give away for free. No one was interested of course. The weird thing is, that she just cannot throw away stuff, giving away stuff to someone else is typically no problem (unless the other person then throws it away).


Lately, I just have become more forceful and started to show her that I can sometimes ignore her responses. We were cleaning the house a while ago and I just filled a bag of stuff to throw out. She tried to stop me, but I just handled her like I handle the kids sometimes when I want to show them there is no room for discussion. It worked, weirdly enough. Then later she put out the bait trying to throw away my stuff. When I told her no, she asked why I got to decide and she wouldn't, so I just replied that I am typically able to throw away even my own stuff so I get to decide now. Sometimes It really just works treating her like a small little child and I am the leading parent. But I feel bad about that because I really want our relationship on an equal basis and we both share feminist views, so I don't want to be dominant. Still, she actually asked me to be more dominant even with her sometimes, which doesn't fit with the feminist views she has at other times.

Then she had a near death experience, and said she felt so guilty if she died I would have to clear all her junk/stuff on my own we should just get a skip and through it away. Again big progress.Lets dig into this we might see a trend.

I think for my W it was my SIL's suicide that changed a lot. For one my W has been a lot more emotionally volatile since then, but it also seems like she is connecting parts that she previously dissociated. For example, she would have memory issues around the times she was abusive and couldn't really recall the full spectrum of what she did. But this year, she seems more aware of these issues and even apologized a few times for what she did during her abusive phases, which had almost never happened before. And she is more open about throwing stuff out.

I am not perfect. I believe I have some less severe abandonment issues, fear of rejection, wanting to save and be the hero. This is what kept me around.

I agree. I think trying to be a savior or something like that is deep in a lot of the people on this board. I really think I am also drawn to complicated relationships a lot. Hardly any of my relationships were easy, but it wasn't the BPD type of hard relationships.

Example: The other day I had a hard day at work, I got home to take the kids. My middle son carried a glass of water filled to the top in a plastic champagne flute. I told him to fill it less and get a regular cup so it wouln't get knocked over. He ignored me. Two kids started fighting, one knocked the water all over his meal and me. The baby I was holding so I couldnt eat my meal was screaming at me. I said just shutup to the baby in a loud voice. Who does that? I apologized immediately, but I can see I am not perfect. My wife had told us all to shutup an hour before. Was that still in my head? Or was it unrelated I dont know. So I need to work on me too

I know a lot of situations like this and even more severe ones. I feel guilty as well for what I did, because once our kids started having issues themselves, I wasn't always able to handle the situation well. I now know I should have looked for help much earlier and I feel guilty I didn't.

I recently found that a lot of the tools from the high conflict couple book and this page work as well to handle the children much better. Our D6 has started to show really bad tantrums lately where she would not respond to anyone etc. Since I tried SET on her, it has gotten much better.

It also helped for me to notice I am not alone in my struggles and there are others around in similar situations. I felt lost often before dealing with her and the kids. But since I know I am not alone and others are handling it (sometimes worse, sometimes better) than me, and are still standing and still believing in making it work, I feel much less loss and I can handle these situations with much more confidence.

[CravingPeace]

Still, I feel really guilty as well, when I read what you wrote because I feel I was way too much enabling and you are so much ahead of me.

I am sorry if I gave you that impression and you felt guilty. Please don't this is one example of many where I got it right. Often I get it wrong. This weekend is a prime example.

So I put a big effort in this weekend, booked her a massage, sorted out an apartment I work in the day for her so she could stay the night. Dropped her off for nearly 24 hours. I took the baby and other kids. It was ok but I did get pretty tired. The next day she said she had such a great time she just needed to go there more to chill, and probably didnt need therapy as it was too hard...... There are serious phycological issues and she has decided just having fun and ignoring her issues would be more convenient. I am gutted.

After I picked her up I went out to meet a friend for a couple of hours. I was feeling really tired when I got home. At 9pm My wife baby and one son and me were lying on the bed all dosing. She got up and said "wow you are pretty stoned arent you." It came from nowhere. I wasn't I was very tired from taking the kids on my own and doing the overnight with the baby. I was pretty upset but this, the right response would have been to not engage, ignore it and realise she obviously had some feelings. Being tired I obviously engaged. "What do you mean? No I am not." I did everything not following JADE. I asked her what she was feeling to say that. She said well you were with your friend you always vape with him. (I have done once a year or so back on a night out). I said well I am upset as I did everything I could for you this weekend and now you are accusing me of something. She then said I couldnt take a joke it was just banter. Clear signs of abuse hurting someone then pretending it was a joke. It came up again in the morning when I had 15 minutes to get to work, I said I cant talk now. She kind of pushed and I didnt maintain the boundary and we got in a circular argument about how I am sensitive, and she needs a list of what she can and cant say so she doesnt have to walk on egg shells. Clearly what little therapy she has had the therapist had been coaching her that I am the problem..... I honestly don't know where to go. Sometimes I wish I was just out of this relationship and at peace on my own. I know I would be happier. But I cant just risk leaving my kids.

Its a shame as we had some talks this weekend where she said she really felt I was taking care of her, and thinking about her. Then boom its all gone just like that are we are back in the dark vortex.

I am also proud of my kids because soon after my W left to go to bed, the kids changed and tried to really help me. Our D6 was washing her twin brother, then after bathtime, our S9 tried to support our S6 (our S9 typically doesn't get along with him) and helped to distract himself from the broken toy... It was really beautiful to watch, since before they were a bunch of (loveable) monsters trying to hurt each other and me as much as possible, and as soon as she was gone and the yelling stopped they fully supported me and each other.

You should be very proud of this. One thing my therapist said is to think of yourself as a lighthouse to your kids. Unfortunately they will not completely avoid harm from living with BPD but it is vital you do everything to make yourself the solid rock of emotional stability.

It also helped for me to notice I am not alone in my struggles and there are others around in similar situations. I felt lost often before dealing with her and the kids. But since I know I am not alone and others are handling it (sometimes worse, sometimes better) than me, and are still standing and still believing in making it work, I feel much less loss and I can handle these situations with much more confidence.

Agreed it really helps to know you are not alone. And to keep trying to work on yourselves. It is so hard to maintain the right level and not slip back into being offended and defensive. The thing is I can practive JADE and SET and it minimises things. But I ask myself am I really in a relationship that will emotionally provide for me if all I am doing is managing her,. She admits she can't self sooth, and is emotionally volitile. Yet on the flip side she still thinks I am the problem and has now decided maybe she doesn't need therapy. There is a complete paradox, she says she is broken,she can't emotiaonlly regulate, she can't self soothe, but in the same breathe is considering not doing therapy any more.