Divorce Strategy Advice, Experts, Lawyers, Custody

[AlleyOop23]

I have another thread on my experience and gaining insight but I wanted to start a new one as it feels like a new topic.

I am actively planning my divorce from my wife who exhibits BPD traits. I have two daughters, 11 and 13. We’ve been married over 25 years. She’s been stay at home for 5. I am the sole earner. The abuse, including two bouts of physical abuse is detailed in my other thread.

I am working with a lawyer, getting them financial information, writing a long narrative, getting ready. It’s awful at home. On this board I got some great advice I’ve used- I picture my life 5, 6 months, a year from now, freed from walking on eggshells on my own home.

A friend of mine turned me onto a lawyer turned BPD divorce expert for a consult. His story of his own horrific divorce from a BPD is on his site.  I appreciate his willingness to share his time with my me.

It was the darkest conversation I’ve ever had, bar none. Over 90 minutes he told me

-you are naive to think 50/50 is a good idea. You need to go all out scorched earth. He points out that my wife has already threatened the kids will live with her full time if we divorce

-you are naive to think your kids are not scarred by emotional abuse (I think she’s good with the kids, getting harder with the 13 yo but she’s a good mom imo)

-your wife WILL
     - fabricate allegations of abuse
     - assasinate your character
    - spend everything you have to hurt you
     - turn your kids against you / parental alienation

He tells me BPDs are so predictable he guaranties this outcome. Part of his plan is ghost writing emails designed to push her BPD buttons so she shows herself to the court.

He says if I don’t go all in I will lose everything since I’m a working dad and she’s a stay at home mom in a “best interests of the children” state.

This is not.a custody case it is a child protection case he says.

Finally he tells “you’re not going to like this but”!he tells me based on my naïveté and affect that I don’t have what it takes and that I should “stoop to conquer” and not even start a divorce. Just stay and figure out how to take it.

Then I ran all this by a family lawyer friend who said to be honest he’s probably right and I think you’ll stay at least three more years.

Fwiw my current attorney purports to be versed innHCP. He’s convinced me I can’t hold back the abuse facts. The plan is to fight for 50//50. All the bad stuff goes in and we’re seeking temporary orders when we file.

So all that to ask this: what input do you have? In a way the encounter is a gift. I’ve been lurching around seeking advice and direction and all kinds of perspectives but ultimately I gotta make the calls and steer the ship.

But it’s a curse in several ways. Am I naive? Are my kids in worse shape than I think? Am I? He grilled me on ptsd and yeah I’ve got symptoms. I sleep I. The guest room and I lock the door. Do I have a strategy that will fail me and my kids?

And at least right now he’s taken away the light at the end of the tunnel. I am now picturing longer darker riskier and a lifetime of continued abuse and I look at my wife and think I can t believe she’s going to be even worse to me. I was picturing living apart, without eggshells. The times I have my kids alone are glorious. Now it’s just depressing and awful and feels lose lose. I should say not all the time but these thoughts inhabit more space than they did.

And my divorce coach, herself an HCP abuse survivor, thinks I’m in much better shape than the “expert.”  Amd of course he is selling something- the solution is turning it all over to him at a very high hourly rate.

So I could use insight on planning for the worst. On choosing an expert and making sure my lawyer is up to it. Amd on strategy and following my instincts.

I don’t want to mess up my kids. But for them I’d have packed my bags 3 years ago.

TIA

[kells76]

Hey, good to hear from you again. Smart move to lay stuff out here and think through your options.

Just for starters, am I tracking with you that you've talked with 3 lawyers:

This one:

I am working with a lawyer, getting them financial information, writing a long narrative, getting ready.

this one:

A friend of mine turned me onto a lawyer turned BPD divorce expert for a consult.

and this one:

Then I ran all this by a family lawyer friend

?

So you have your current L, and have also consulted with "worst case scenario" L and "family friend" L?

Let's start there and make sure I'm reading correctly!

[Cat Familiar]

I attempted to do a collaborative divorce—talk about naive! Then my ex hired the most pitbull-y local attorney in the area and decided to take me to the cleaners. He made up his own *facts* about state law, insisting that he had claim to property that was legally mine. I had to do deep dives to prove title and ownership, taking significant time and exhausting me mentally and emotionally.

He got far worse than his typical abuse, which was bad to begin with. He ran up huge sums on our credit card that I ended up having to pay, he claimed disability meanwhile marching in a parade and moving boulders in a garden, he asked for spousal support, though we both jointly owned a business together.

He went scorched earth on me, but in the end I had to pay him what seemed like a lot of money at the time to go away. In retrospect, I got out cheap. My property value soared and what I spent to get him out of my life was well worth it.

You have children, which certainly complicates things. I really have no advice to give other than to keep your eyes open and protect your assets.

[AlleyOop23]

@kells76 yes you have that right. There’s my lawyer representing me to whom I’m getting info. There’s my friend who happens to be a family law attorney. And there’s the consultation/lawyer whom I talked to today. I know a lot of lawyers beyond those three.

[AlleyOop23]

@cat familiar
As Chaz Palminteri says in Bronx Tale: “twenty bucks and he’s out of your life for good? You got off cheap kid. You got off cheap.”

[GaGrl]

If you want to end up with 50-50, you might need to start with filing for full custody. If your wife exhibits physical and emotional abuse, filing for 50-50 tells the court that you a fee okay with your children being exposed to that abuse 50% of their time. Are you comfortable with that?

[AlleyOop23]

If I genuinely thought she was abusive to the kids I would file for full custody and I would fight and slog and burn it all down. If I thought she was physically assaulting them I’d call the police move out amd take them with me.

She doesnt treat them the way she treats me. Is she too harsh sometimes, parents with more shame than I believe she shluld? Yes absolutely.

The older one is in therapy and I’ve set up a call with her therapist and I to see or thrr are any concerns “about her parents relationship”

It is possible and maybe even logical that with me out of the house she turns that abuse onto the kids. But I just don’t see it happening.
I can’t testify that I think she’s a danger and shouldn’t have custody at all be cause I dont believe it. And right there is where I worry I’m naive. Am I blind to the effect of her parenting on
Y kids? My gut tells me I am not. I read that many male abuse victims are in denial about abuse of their kids as they would then have to act. Is that me? I honestly think it is not.

But I am an abuse victim. Do I trust my instincts anymore?

Bottom line after talking to my actual current representing me lawyer I don’t have anything I can offer a court in the way of evidence to suggest my wife should not have custody of the kids.

But this is why I’m writing - to gain insight and the benefit of this group’s perspective on what I write.

[kells76]

Let's talk more about what "50/50" and "custody" mean to you and mean in your state. This is really important.

In my state, the distinction between "joint" and "sole" only applies to legal custody. Either both parents are equal legal decision makers (for medical, dental, school, therapy, etc), or one parent gets final say on everything. My H believed at the time that "custody" meant "parenting time". As he was working full time as the breadwinner, he believed that he had to let Mom have sole custody, not understanding that that, in our state, did not just mean Mom had the kids most of the time, it meant she had final say on every legal decision. This has been an indescribably hard thing to claw back from.

It is completely possible in our state for one parent to have sole legal custody, but the parenting time to be split perfectly equally. It is also possible for the parent with sole custody to have majority PT. It is logically possible (though less common) for the parent with sole custody to have minority PT.

When you say 50/50, are you talking about parenting time, legal decision making, or both?

It is very possible to come up with a non-boilerplate custody agreement and parenting plan that is not just "we assume Mom and Dad are equal decision makers and share time equally", that also isn't "scorched earth". Being super strategic here can pay off.

I'll pause here to hear more from you -- know that this is very work-out-able ahead of time.

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks for your thoughts. Legal custody is a separate concept. Barring some big reason which does it exist on either side here, legal custody- decisions such as medical, school choices, etc are equal joint decisions.

So you are correct to make the point that what I’m referring to is parenting time. I was never interested in “winning” the parenting time split. Rather I was inclined to let my wife think she was winning but figure out ways on paper that my end of parenting time meant more.

Where I’m stuck is the assertion that I’m somehow failing my kids by not trying to get ALL the time because I’m too naive to see they are suffering

I don’t think I’m naive. And if I show up with no sufficient basis for stating I, the male working parent should get all parenting time and she, the female primary parent should know have none, well, I think that backfires on me quickly and I look over aggressive and unreasonable

[kells76]

OK, that makes sense.

Barring some big reason which does it exist on either side here, legal custody- decisions such as medical, school choices, etc are equal joint decisions.

So the boilerplate presumption in your area is joint legal; that can be common. We know and you know that BPD can impact a person's ability to be agreeable, rational, and cooperative. Making legal decisions for minor children needs both parties to be agreeable, rational, and cooperative.

This is where you knowing that BPD is a factor means that you may have to hand-craft a couple of custody agreements that are not boilerplate, that will cover your bases so you aren't left with "I thought X was better but she wants Not X. Now we're stuck because there is no tiebreaker" over and over.

One way to approach thinking about it is -- it's better to assume (in your head) a worse-case scenario, and it never happens, than to assume that "you guys will be able to coparent even though you couldn't work as spouses".

We may have talked in your last thread about how some parents will divvy up the legal decision making areas, giving the parent with BPD numerically equal or more, but content-wise keeping the "big ones". So maybe there is a way for you to propose: "Mom is tiebreaker on OB/GYN care, vision, dental, and religion. Dad is tiebreaker on medical, therapy, and education". She feels like she wins because she got more, but if you are final say on therapy and education, she can't pull the kids from therapy unilaterally, and she can't change the kids' schools when she feels like it or when you get too involved in their school. Ask me how I know about that last one  

Where I’m stuck is the assertion that I’m somehow failing my kids by not trying to get ALL the time because I’m too naive to see they are suffering

I don’t think I’m naive. And if I show up with no sufficient basis for stating I, the male working parent should get all parenting time and she, the female primary parent should know have none, well, I think that backfires on me quickly and I look over aggressive and unreasonable

Maybe this is part of it -- you haven't divorced yet. Her current relational dysfunction and intensity may be focused on you. So it's not that you're too naive to see what's going on for your kids, it's that it isn't going on at a dysfunctional level for them. OK, yes, BPD impacts all family relationships, but I think what I'm getting at is -- I don't think you're missing seeing something, it's that the circumstances that could lead to her having a greater negative parenting impact haven't happened yet.

So you may be right to approach it as -- you don't have a current basis for saying "Dad gets 100% of the parenting time" or whatnot. That isn't necessarily naive.

But you can see down the road. It is probable that more parenting difficulty will come (unless you think she will pivot her focus to new adult romantic relationships? That can happen).

Maybe we can bypass the question of "Is AlleyOop23 naive, or blind, or seeing it, or not seeing it" because whatever is or is not going on now, we're focused on planning for the probable conflict down the road.

...

The question for me would be: how can we get your hands on the levers that matter in a custody agreement and PP now, so that if you have to use them later, you can, and if not, hey, that's great!

Divvying up legal decision making, so that there are named tie breakers in every category, is one way.

I'd consider proposals involving you getting a significant number of school holidays/days off, and getting more days around big-name holidays in exchange for Mom getting day of the holiday. I'd propose that a lot of school hours time is Mom's parenting time, in such a way that on paper she has more hours/week than you do, but effectively you have more time with them.

In terms of PP's -- what have you looked at so far? Our Family Wizard and Talking Parents both have some options online to look at (I think), but for your situation you may have to go bespoke. And I wouldn't just make one, I'd make two to three slightly different ones for negotiation.

...

if I show up with no sufficient basis for stating I, the male working parent should get all parenting time and she, the female primary parent should know have none, well, I think that backfires on me quickly and I look over aggressive and unreasonable

It really depends on what you think your kids' mom is going to do and what your L knows about judges in your area.

I think it would be better to come up with a few "Dad gets significant majority PT" plans, and never have to pitch them, then to find yourself in a situation where Mom is saying "I want 100% PT and Dad to get 0%", you're saying "I want 50% PT just to be fair", and a judge says "Fine, we're splitting the difference" and you end up with 25%.

You may never have to use draft proposals where you're getting majority PT, but have a couple just in case, so that you have somewhere to negotiate down from.

It's fine to negotiate down from "Dad gets 85%" to "Dad gets 50-55%". It is a much harder row to hoe to climb up from "Mom wants Dad to get 0, Dad wants 50". You can only negotiate down from 50%. Don't have what you actually want be the first thing you propose.

Anyway -- lots of food for thought...

[kells76]

One more thought just hit.

Maybe this is less about "who gets more", or "who is naive", or this or that --

it's about closing loopholes.

Whatever plan works best for you and your children, how can it be the most airtight, rock solid, manipulation-proof plan, legally?

Now, don't undersell yourself, and I wouldn't recommend starting negotiations at your preferred position.

But in the end -- if you "won" 85% PT on paper, but there weren't any safeguards like "PT may only be changed by the parents, not the children, by mutual agreement by the two parents, in emails at minimum 48 hours in advance of the proposed change" or whatever -- then it doesn't matter what anyone has on paper if it isn't airtight.

So that can be another tack to take. Again -- don't sell yourself short -- but if for whatever reason you having 45% PT is the only thing that can work, then work with your L to make sure that it is 200% protected. Various ways to do that -- we can talk about that more if you'd like.

[ForeverDad]

Oh my, so many tidbits to share here.

The lawyer who had his own BPD divorce is correct, it could get very, very intense divorcing a spouse with BPD.  My ex was so possessive that our Custody Evaluator, a child psychologist, stated in his initial report, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can."  The problem is that no one can predict precisely how intense your spouse's opposition and sabotaging behavior will be.  BPD consists of traits that can range from strong to mild.  However, a wise perspective to have is to Plan for Intense opposition while hoping for grudging acceptance of reality.

Yes, odds are your case will lean toward the opposing / sabotage end of the scale.  That's what we see here a lot on the Separating/Divorcing board.  I don't think this is a statistically accurate example of the general population, I "hope" it's due to spouses so desperately seeking help that those are the ones who find us here.  (After all, we also have a number of members over on our bettering and other boards.  On the other hand, many people don't know that they're dealing with an impacting Personality Disorder.)

This is where Boundaries are so very important.  A common pattern with pwBPD is that if you weaken a boundary, then they'll almost certainly demand more.  See the Boundary articles on our Tools & skills Workshops board.  Or here:
Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

You are naive to think 50/50 is a good idea.  If you ask for 50/50 then that's all the court will expect you to want.  Your spouse will likely demand everything, all parenting, all support, etc.  From the start you should properly state that you're an involved father and the children would do best that you remain an involved father.  There is everything excellent about saying you want as much time and responsibility the court will allow.  You're not just deep pockets for an ex-spouse to assume the contents are hers.

You are naive to think your kids are not scarred by emotional abuse.  I recall what my ex said in her final months in our home... that I was weak, she wore the pants in our family, <more sexually disparaging verbal abuse>, that she'd disappear with our preschooler.  Though I started with no custody and only alternate weekends in the temp order, I never wavered from my goal, then I had shared parenting and equal time, then full custody, then majority time during the school year.  It was a long tough road, with court making just incremental improvements over time.  But it did gradually get better.  He's grown now, it's been a few years since he's aged out of the System.  Yes, he still talks to his mother daily, but where do you think he still lives?

Your spouse will... fabricate allegations, cast you as Mr Evil Personified, drain your accounts, alienate your kids from you.  Sadly, that is likely.  We just don't know in advance how determined she will be to devastate you.

My ex never made DV allegations against me, probably because we started our separation with her facing Threat of DV charges.  But she made allegations of all sorts of child abuse.  It was hard at first since he was young and under her influence and she sought out all sorts of places to insinuate abuse (pediatrician, children's services multiple times, hospital, sheriff's office, probably more) but soon children's services figured out the reality.  They did not stop her from filing accusations but always the result was a wimpy "unsubstantiated".  Better would have been a firm "unfounded".

This is not.a custody case it is a child protection case...  I don’t want to mess up my kids. But for them I’d have packed my bags 3 years ago.

Your girls are already in tween or teen years.  All too soon they'll be grown and gone.  And No, a divorce will not mess up your kids.  Rather, though it will be difficult at first, more likely it will result in your children getting to see the difference between an appeasing dominated father (I presume) and a father who is in charge of a loving and stable home with consistent rules.

There is no single fix that resolves all the concerns.  However, there are partial solutions that can improve circumstances.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, alienation attempts, overall craziness, etc... As the saying goes, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

The problem is that court's first reaction is to view this as two parents bickering and both might be at fault.  It will take time and continuing documentation to convince this is a problem parent versus a reasonably normal and caring parent.  It's possible court may initially feel defaulting to motherhood is the best start.  (That's what my court did and I was stuck with it for two years.)  Beware that setting the initial "temporary" order is very important because court can do so in a brief half hour hearing.  Stand up for yourself as an involved father and ensure you and your lawyer focus (due to the limited time) on important documentation so you're not digging yourself out of a poor "standard" temp order for the next year or two.  Forget minor issues, concentrate on you having at least some custody, better yet, joint custody with some sort of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status on the important aspects of mental health (counseling) and schooling.

As was recommended already, asking for equal time while spouse is demanding 99% or even that you be limited to supervised visits can let the judge "split the hairs" and order something in between such as "standard" dad alternate weekends.  If your goal is for majority time, then say so, but also be cooperative and accepting of an equal time order.

[livednlearned]

Just want to chime in here and remind you to breathe  

It's hard when the stakes feel so high (our kids, our mental health, our homes).

Breathing helps your parasympathetic nervous system get you (and your brain) out of fight/flight/freeze. It's better for thinking  

A friend of mine turned me onto a lawyer turned BPD divorce expert for a consult. His story of his own horrific divorce from a BPD is on his site.  I appreciate his willingness to share his time with my me.

He sounds like an aggressive lawyer.

An assertive lawyer is more like this.

An assertive lawyer will cost a lot. An aggressive lawyer will cost more. They tend to blow things up because they don't have the finesse to do things without dynamite.

Some aggressive lawyers display personality disorder traits.

Finally he tells “you’re not going to like this but”!he tells me based on my naïveté and affect that I don’t have what it takes and that I should “stoop to conquer” and not even start a divorce. Just stay and figure out how to take it.

Honestly, this sounds like he hasn't resolved his own traumatic marriage and divorce.

Then I ran all this by a family lawyer friend who said to be honest he’s probably right and I think you’ll stay at least three more years.

What part of what he said did he mean "he's probably right"?

Fwiw my current attorney purports to be versed innHCP. He’s convinced me I can’t hold back the abuse facts. The plan is to fight for 50//50. All the bad stuff goes in and we’re seeking temporary orders when we file.

Were you suggesting to him that you wanted to hold back facts about the abuse?

Did he give you a sense of why he thought 50/50 made sense for your case?

I’ve been lurching around seeking advice and direction and all kinds of perspectives but ultimately I gotta make the calls and steer the ship.

If you have codependent tendencies, which isn't uncommon, you may feel drawn to people who present with a lot of confidence. Does the lawyer you're working with come across as reasonable? Did your current lawyer give you a sense that there is a clear goal with a strategy (or strategies) including tactics?

Am I naive? Are my kids in worse shape than I think? Am I? He grilled me on ptsd and yeah I’ve got symptoms.

If you have emotional injuries that prevent you from understanding what constitutes emotional safety and healthy emotions, you may struggle to gauge if those qualities are present for the kids. It is ok to recognize that the kids will need therapy, and you as well, to process how everyone got to this point.

It might help to read a bit to see what is normal/not normal and see where things stack up in your family. Bill Eddy wrote Splitting, and he also wrote Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When One Parent has BPD.

Do I have a strategy that will fail me and my kids?

What is the strategy?

I am now picturing longer darker riskier and a lifetime of continued abuse and I look at my wife and think I can t believe she’s going to be even worse to me. I was picturing living apart, without eggshells.

There is another path where you step away from the abuse and you begin to heal and get stronger. You spend less time surviving and more time tending to things that move your healing forward. She may not change, but you can, and those changes may change her.

Not that any of this will be easy.

I could use insight on planning for the worst. On choosing an expert and making sure my lawyer is up to it. Amd on strategy and following my instincts.

How do you feel about your attorney so far?

[AlleyOop23]

This is all so so so helpful. I have a lot to write about and ask and I will. I’m
An atheist but thank god for this board.

My wife lost it a lot today. 36 inches of texts. She insisted that I not pick up kids from Activities and then laid out what I would and would not be doing with the kids essentially limiting my time with them. Today was our anniversary and she is always more triggered on holidays.

I stepped back. After she threatened to make a scene I said fine pick them up tonight

I have no interest in letting this go. My preference at this point is thenhell with a bully I’m going down there and picking up my kid! As for boundaries, yeah, I want to set them. As I’ve been setting more she’s been predictably escalating.

So the question in this boards opinion (and I’ve put this to my lawyer as well) what is the lesser evil?’ Avoiding conflict? Or letting her have Her way ESPECIALLY when it comes to the kids?

Don’t want to traumatize them with open hostility. Don’t want to sacrifice them by avoiding.

Note - I’ve come a long way. A year ago I would have avoided the fight for codependent reasons. Now I’m making non fear based decisions. I’m taking the small stuff.

[AlleyOop23]

Appended thought - she went upstairs said “you can have dinner with the kids” amd started a bath. Amd I’m thinking - wait what? All I have to do is wade through swampy hell but at some point I get to leave and at some further point I get to be divorced? Awesome I can do that!

[GaGrl]

You really have no idea at this poi t as to what your wife has traumatized your children.

Here are some of my husband's experiences with his uBPD/NPD ex-wife ...

1) She refused to go with him to a military assignment overseas, at the last minute. This meant a two year separation with her staying in his hometown with his financial support and her independence. She was arrested for bashing in her lover,'s windshield. She showed up at his sister's house, at which point his sister said she would take the children but not her. Not pretty. She had a peace bond imposed.

2) She went with him to his next assignment, but had a flagrant affair with an enlisted man that caused him a command. He considered divorce at this point.

3) She refused to live with him at further assignments. The marriage deteriorated until the 12-year-old daughter walked in on her mother and a lover having sex on the living room floor.

4) The local CS became involved after an incident with the adopted daughter ( the wife's niece from Thailand). School counselors were involved.

5) H was offered an Executive Officer assignment to Central America, next assignment would have been the Pentagon. H was convinced if he was gone for two years, someone would be dead -- either his then twice or one of his teens children

He went from active to reserve and did not go.

[GaGrl]

You really have no idea at this point as to how your wife has traumatized your children.

Here are some of my husband's experiences with his uBPD/NPD ex-wife ...

1) She refused to go with him to a military assignment overseas, at the last minute. This meant a two year separation with her staying in his hometown with his financial support and her independence. She was arrested for bashing in her lover,'s windshield. She showed up at his sister's house, at which point his sister said she would take the children but not her. Not pretty. She had a peace bond imposed.

2) She went with him to his next assignment, but had a flagrant affair with an enlisted man that caused him a command. He considered divorce at this point.

3) She refused to live with him at further assignments. The marriage deteriorated until the 12-year-old daughter walked in on her mother and a lover having sex on the living room floor.

4) The local CS became involved after an incident with the adopted daughter ( the wife's niece from Thailand). School counselors were involved.

5) H was offered an Executive Officer assignment to Central America, next assignment would have been the Pentagon. H was convinced if he was gone for two years, someone would be dead -- either his then twice or one of his teens children

He went from active to reserve and did not go.

[ForeverDad]

As for boundaries, yeah, I want to set them. As I’ve been setting more she’s been predictably escalating.

The escalation is more or less a predictable response to your better boundaries.  Your spouse has a comfort zone where she sets the rules and orders (that apply to you but not necessarily to her).  You've upset her preferred view of family life.  Hence, the Extinction Burst reaction designed to cause you to retreat to prior weak behavior patterns and responses,  where you had previously submitted yourself to her controller demands.

So, what do you do now?  If they're reasonable and decent boundaries, stick with them.  But... what are the boundaries?  PwBPD resist boundaries, especially when you're telling them what to do or not do.  So, with that understood, how do you make workable boundaries?  You may not read these words directly in the text of the boundaries articles I linked above, but in my perspective it boils down to a simple equation... "If you do or don't do ___, then in response I will do or not do ___."  Mostly your response will be a variation of a timeout to let her ponder the matter, cool down, or whatever.

Read those links.  They have examples.  For a generic example, if your reasonable boundary is violated, tell her you're going to take a walk around the block or go to the supermarket to purchase something.  If the kids were observing, let them come along.  If it involves something about the kids, take them to a local park or some other activity for a while, not as a reward but to give her some time to reset and then return with the kids as though everything was normal.  Warning, it may take a few times before she gets the idea.  PwBPD are erratic and predictably unpredictable so accept that nothing works all the time.

Yes, certain events such as anniversaries and a myriad of other triggers can put your spouse on edge.  Some are minor and you can often let her cool down or you Let them Go.  (Or you can start with the small stuff to get a feel for how to do it.)  Others that impact you, the children, or the entire family, that is of more lasting concern.

One final thought.  You always need to keep your composure.  If there is any shouting, ranting or raging, ensure it isn't you.  Always be calm, or as calm as possible, set an example for your children.  Did you notice in my example above that you should walk away from conflict?  Don't engage shouting matches, they don't accomplish anything.  Let that be an example for your children to see and in time imitate.

I often tell our newer members to imagine a judge looking over your shoulder 24/7.  Will he be impressed or mumble "tsk, tsk, you're both problem parents"?  I quietly recorded my spouse (before we had smart phones) during some of her tantrums so I could document I wasn't the aggressive one (my ex loved to pose as though a victim) nor the one causing her poor behavior.

If and when you get to a legal stage, even if you both are at first viewed as needlessly bickering parents, eventually you want the court or its evaluators and associated professionals to realize that you always are the parent proposing solutions, not the one creating obstacles and conflict.

[SaltyDawg]

AlleyOop23,

   LnL has good advice, straight from the book:

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder

by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger

Make sure you get the most recent edition.

I highly recommend you read it cover to cover as soon as you can as it will give you a better understanding of what you are up against.

My biggest take-a-way from the book is to have solid documentation that you are a good dad, you are the reasonable parent and a problem solver and be on best behavior.

It will be the best $20 you will spend...

Be sure to do self-care, to decompress from the stress of all of this.

[livednlearned]

what is the lesser evil?’ Avoiding conflict? Or letting her have Her way ESPECIALLY when it comes to the kids?

Some of this depends on what your short-term goals are.

Even the best plans can have stuff that goes sideways, and yet, you probably have a timeline, yes?

When you head into a high-conflict divorce, documentation is going to matter, even if it doesn't matter, if that makes sense.

36 inches of text exchanges limiting your time with the kids was followed by "fine."

What if you followed with, "I have concerns about the ways in which you are limiting my time with the kids. I love these kids more than I can express and spending time with them is, like I've said over and over, my greatest priority."

Say what you feel. If it's too much conflict and not good for anyone, let her get the kids but leave a record that you protested, and how you feel. "I won't pick them up only because I refuse to add any more conflict to their lives."

Thoughts?

[AlleyOop23]

Omg those examples are AMAZING. perfect. That provides me with a tremendously helpful mindset.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you thank you all of you. I am grateful beyond measure. The advice is so helpful. The support is so needed. Hearing from those who have been there is just so essential. I’ll be back to re-read and ask more.

I redownloaded Splitting. I read it a year ago. It really freaked me out at the time. Now my reaction is far more measured. Things that were hard to read I now shrug. I think I really was not ready to admit it had to be over.

[yeeter]

You have two battles.  The court and legal side.  And the battle to maintain the relationship with your children

What my ex figured out early on is that most of what is fought over in a divorce agreement is unenforceable.  You simply can not force behavior.  (Most of what divorce comes down to is financial agreement).

Your children are old enough that a court can not ‘make’ them keep a relationship with you.  So if your wife alienates them and turns them against you, you lose them for life. No matter what a court document says. 

The legal system is not equipped to deal with it.  And in many ways enables it.

So you have to assess early if this is a ‘possibility’. If so, being ‘reasonable’ (which the lawyers and courts all hope prevails), will NOT prevail and by then you will have lost your children

The fact that even one lawyer pointed this out is a signal.  Listen to it

[Notwendy]

I think you can assume that she won't treat your kids like she treats you, eventually. They may not be old enough yet.

They are becoming old enough to be useful to her and also emotional caretakers. Once they are old enough to "talk back" to her, the sparks may fly.

My BPD mother wasn't physically abusive to me in the classical sense. Verbal and emotional abuse- yes. The "problem" with no physical abuse ( even though it's not a good thing) is that it's hard to prove.

Dad was her enabler. I think he did what he knew to do at the time but the family rule was to keep her behavior a secret.

Then there are other ways that may not be classical "abuse"- that is to be my mother's emotional caretaker and listen to her confide in me her issues with her relationship with my father.

Dad did what he could to mitigate the effects of of her behavior on us and I think overall he did as good a job of that as anyone could. In the time my parents were married, it was the mother who got full custody of the kids. I think that played a part in his decision to not divorce. However, they stayed together after we grew up and left home so I don't think it was the only reason.

If they had divorced when I was a teen, I'd have asked the courts to let me stay with him.

IMHO, now that divorce is on the table- do what you can to get your time with those girls.

 

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks all. As I prepare to move out I’ve got some concerns.

My wife is the primary parent. She plans their stuff.  She plans doctor visits she plans holidays, gifts, celebrations, looking at middle schools and high schools. She sets up more play dates. She plans trips.

This is all true for three reasons.

1. She feels more urgency around it than me. I would rather plan less and have less stress. For her I think in her mind she didn’t really try if she didn’t stress about it.

2. She’s the primary parent. She worked part time and then not at all (outside the home).

3. When I’ve planned things she is so critical and hurtful that I’ve simply stopped.

So now I’m going to show up in this divorce amd say I’m going to do alll that. Well that’s true. I want to do it. I always wanted to do more. She just hates my “last minute chaos.”

How do I prove this is true. She logs onto the school websites more than me. Takes them to appointments more than me. And of course she does, we agreed. But I feel like I don’t know what external proof of this I have. My wife continually tells me I don’t know what’s going on with them. I think I do. Anyway, any
Thoughts?

I’m taking this to my lawyer as well.

Tonight we were home alone  I’ve been engineering it so we’re not. Damn she laid into me, yelling, every damn thing she could think of that I’ve ever done amd then told me me to pack amd leave and get the PLEASE READ out and took a pile of my dry cleaning and threw it out the door onto the front steps. It was raining, our daughter was due  to be dropped off.

I continue to worry about escalation after I serve her. The temporary orders motion is going to contain very unflattering things. She’s going to be feel publicly betrayed, publicly humiliated and abandoned. That’s about as bad as it gets for her

[ForeverDad]

No, it'll probably get worse.   But you can roll with the punches like all us dads here.

Really, it's not as bad as you fear.  Yes, there will certainly be some down days.  I presume today was once of them.

Question: Why do you think she is so nasty to you?
Answer: Because they hurt you so much and you're used to caving to her criticism.

I too was a calm and relaxed dad.  But I put my nose to the grindstone and made sure I slogged through the rough times.

Just because she does a lot for the kids doesn't mean you're a nothing parent.  Being home, she has more time for the kids.  But that doesn't mean you can't monitor who the kids' doctors and teachers are.  You can sit down with the kids and review their homework even if already completed.  You can most definitely go to parent-teacher nights.  (During my divorce there were two time slots on my son's P-T nights, one with his mother and one with me.  Teachers dealt kindly with the awkwardness.)

She’s going to be feel publicly betrayed, publicly humiliated and abandoned. That’s about as bad as it gets for her.

You need to adjust your perspective.  Your focus should be on yourself and your parenting (the children).  You are ending the relationship with your spouse.  That means your priority structure is (1) yourself (2) the parenting of your kids and way way down the list is your stbEx's problems.  Sorry, I'm not unfeeling, but she sunk the marriage, let her face whatever consequences there are.

I know it's hard to stop trying to please, obey or appease her, but that's the new reality.

Also, when you move out you are NOT leaving the kids behind.  Likely court will assign a schedule where both parents will split the parenting.  You do your best to seek as much parenting as the court will allow.  That is what being an involved parent is like... you care... even if in the past your spouse squeezed you out.

Also wherever you go, make sure the residence is large enough for you and the kids when they're with you, so no long term hole in the wall micro apartment.

[yeeter]

Your lawyers 'should' give you additional guidance, but a couple suggestions:

Make a list of all things you have done with your kids in the past.  Over the years.  You need to show that you were involved to some degree.

Having said that she will be seen as the primary caregiver (given your description of how things work).  Unless you can prove she is 'unfit' mother, that is unlikely to change.  But you can document that you did do things with the kids.

Most likely , your lawyers will advise you to NOT move out until a temporary agreement is in place.  This could be two or three months to establish.  So plan on living with an incredibly hostile person during this time.  (holidays make it worse). 

Collect any legal documents (titles, tax records, birth certificates, etc etc), information, and possessions that you feel are critically valuable to you.  Dont forget key sentimental items (these can get purposely destroyed), and photographs.  Old family photos, and a backup of your computer files.

Start creating a log of events.  Every interaction and what was said.  Take notes and date/time stamp it.  In particular a log of interaction with the kids.

Assume it will escalate in ways you can not imagine.  Get your support network in place and use it.

[EyesUp]

Your lawyers 'should' give you additional guidance, but a couple suggestions:

Make a list of all things you have done with your kids in the past.  Over the years.  You need to show that you were involved to some degree.

Having said that she will be seen as the primary caregiver (given your description of how things work).  Unless you can prove she is 'unfit' mother, that is unlikely to change.  But you can document that you did do things with the kids.

Most likely , your lawyers will advise you to NOT move out until a temporary agreement is in place.  This could be two or three months to establish.  So plan on living with an incredibly hostile person during this time.  (holidays make it worse). 

Collect any legal documents (titles, tax records, birth certificates, etc etc), information, and possessions that you feel are critically valuable to you.  Dont forget key sentimental items (these can get purposely destroyed), and photographs.  Old family photos, and a backup of your computer files.

Start creating a log of events.  Every interaction and what was said.  Take notes and date/time stamp it.  In particular a log of interaction with the kids.

Assume it will escalate in ways you can not imagine.  Get your support network in place and use it.

This.

All of this.

Don't move out - that is a huge signal to the court that you trust your stbx with the kids.  You say you do - but does that mean that you're ready to make her the primary parent, and all that entails?  Because moving out basically says:  "I want to pay my stbx maximum child support to maintain her role as primary parent".  Any atty who supports this move out plan is either not thinking in your best interest, or looking for a shortcut to a fait accompli case in which you get every other weekend with your kids and your stbx gets to keep the house and receive maximum child support.  My instinct is:  you need to interview a few more attys, or learn a bit more about this process until you're out of the fog (and by fog, I mean FOG).

Get a DVR and keep it running 24/7.  Know your local laws, but do it anyway - this is how you combat false DV accusations while cohabitating, if necessary.

Document, document, document.

Retroactive log of everything you've done.

What you haven't done - start now.  Become a presence at school.  Show up at parent-teacher conferences.  Start somewhere.  Document it.   Once the divorce process is formally underway, you will need to be involved in everything.

About the 50/50 thing.  Does your stbx have a good community of friends and family that will help keep her centered?  Do you and your stbx socialize with your kids' friends parents?  How will those relationships change?  Do you kids have close aunts, uncles, cousins on your stbx's side?   I ask these things because in my situation, my uBPDxw does, in fact, have a supportive family - and they are close to our kids.  So I understood, on some level, that my uBPDxw had the proverbial "village" - in fact, more than me.   

I participated in doctor's appointments, often took the kids to friends' bday parties while x stayed home to rest, always did swim lessons / dance lessons / gymnastics lesson, etc., always at school events, teacher conferences, and often at doctor's appts, too.  I have always shared that stuff - and I was told by more than one atty that 50-50 was never a guaranty, and not to expect more.  My x had a few recent mental health blemishes on her record, too.  None of it mattered to any of the experts that I consulted in my state.  And I interviewed a LOT of experts - GALs, family therapists, mediators, and attys.   

So I accepted that 50-50 wasn't necessarily the end point - just the most likely starting point - and that I would need to remain vigilant and continue to be superdad, and to be prepared to return to court for a modification or emergency orders, etc.  And I'm still walking on that particular tight rope, while my x continues to stoke conflict and play victim and act out all the alienation behaviors in the book...

In scenarios like ours, the divorce isn't the end - it's just the end of a chapter.  An inflection point.  Some of the advice you've received may be well and good.  And there are certainly predictable and repeatable patterns in these cases.  But, still - every case is unique, and no one knows your stbx better than you. Use this knowledge to your advantage.

The way I see it - for you, the clock starts now and it's going to take some time between when you or your stbx file and when the deal is done.  Between now and then, you might settle or you might go to trial (unlikely, but it can happen).  The point is:  The judge will only look at one to two years of recent activity as precedent - so start doing everything now.  Don't do it in the "I'm taking over" way that will trigger your stbx, obviously - do it in subtle ways. In fact, if your stbx is anything like mine, she'll prob gladly hand over a few appointments so she can go get her nails done or whatever. Take that gift.

Document everything you do.  Every breakfast, every walk in the park, every trip to a playground, every bike ride, every movie.  Even if you're not automatically at the doctor's office, document what you DO do.

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks bpdfamily for the help so far. I’ve turned in everything to my lawyers for filing for divorce. Things at home are worse, my stbx is even more hostile. My wife said she wants to separate and I told her I’m moving out.  

She doesn’t know I have a lawyer or thatI just rented a place.i am not certain she is serious or understands that I am serious. I am preparing and she isn’t.i have a therapist, lawyers and a divorce coach. She has never consulted with a lawyer (I do actually know this). It  feels both crappy and necessary to be doing all these preparations in secret. I plan to drip out the information to her rather than drop it all in her at once.

So first please look at how I’m dropping facts and see if you have any thoughts. Obviously you don’t know her but some of your experiences are some eerily similar you never know. Then I’ve got a few questions.

When we discussed what she calls separation I said we’re not separating I’m moving out and we’re divorcing.  She then told me she expects I’ll see the kids during the week when I drive them to school and sometimes on weekends. I will not get a place where they have their own rooms (they currently don’t)and I will tell the kids I will not get them a dog (I’ve said I would). I responded that I wouldn’t discuss terms now.

I’ve since told her only that we are not on the same page about the kids’ living situation and we should try to minimize conflict. That we should prepare and not negotiate directly. I suggested a coparenting mediator/guide person and some documentaries by the Split Outreach Program.

If she won’t start talking about anything then I’ll tell her she’s not leaving me a choice and that I’m starting a divorce action and she needs a lawyer. (If she does start talking I’ll react to that but regardless I am starting a divorce).

That’s how I plan to ease her into this and try as best I can to minimize the volatility, which may be impossible but at least I will feel i tried.

Some things I am pondering. There are some things that need to happen that potentially put my kids into a compromising position.  First I need to tell them separately per all the advice I’ve gotten and per my own judgment. Jointly telling them is probably a disaster.

If my wife isnt participating I need them to bring some things and clothes to my new place. They will be worried she will be upset about their choices if she isn’t providing feedback or helping them make decisions sort of like “dad are you sure we should be doing this?” way. Not sure how to best help them or avoid setting them up for an awkward or angry exchange with their mother, mostly over clothes. (I am buying two of everything else they possess like coats, tablets, chromebooks etc).

When my stbx is served with the divorce papers, because she has been so uncompromising I, per legal advice, need to move for temporary orders on money and seeking 50/50 parenting  time. The papers detail her abuse, including four times babe has been physically abusive to me. This breach in her mind of loyalty and trust, combined with the attack on her parenting time and the reality that she can’t control things will be a massive shock to an already unstable person. Her identity is that she’s a mom and her conviction is that I’m bad for the kids. This is so explosive I discussed potentially getting an order for protection with my lawyers. I’ve chosen not to seek one due to the downstream effect that will have especially on the kids.

Also in the motion will be me relating some conversations I’ve had with the kids about some of her behavior. I’ve tried to tell her that she’s too hard on them especially our 13 yo. When she sees these conversations part of me worries she will feel betrayed by the kids and take it out on them. There is no precedent for that I’m just worried.

She is mostly a loving and supportive parent. They need time with her. Their relationship isn’t so bad they shouldn’t be with her. But they do need time away and time with me and what the kids have to say is part of that. I am moving for the kids to have a guardian at litem appointed and well almost certainly have a custody evaluation. But I’m afraid I’m potentially making my kids relationship with their mom harder.


So if this board can provide feedback of any kind I will once again be grateful n beyond measure. Thank you.

[Tangled mangled]

Thanks bpdfamily for the help so far. I’ve turned in everything to my lawyers for filing for divorce. Things at home are worse, my stbx is even more hostile. My wife said she wants to separate and I told her I’m moving out.  

She doesn’t know I have a lawyer or thatI just rented a place.i am not certain she is serious or understands that I am serious. I am preparing and she isn’t.i have a therapist, lawyers and a divorce coach. She has never consulted with a lawyer (I do actually know this). It  feels both crappy and necessary to be doing all these preparations in secret. I plan to drip out the information to her rather than drop it all in her at once.

So first please look at how I’m dropping facts and see if you have any thoughts. Obviously you don’t know her but some of your experiences are some eerily similar you never know. Then I’ve got a few questions.

When we discussed what she calls separation I said we’re not separating I’m moving out and we’re divorcing.  She then told me she expects I’ll see the kids during the week when I drive them to school and sometimes on weekends. I will not get a place where they have their own rooms (they currently don’t)and I will tell the kids I will not get them a dog (I’ve said I would). I responded that I wouldn’t discuss terms now.

I’ve since told her only that we are not on the same page about the kids’ living situation and we should try to minimize conflict. That we should prepare and not negotiate directly. I suggested a coparenting mediator/guide person and some documentaries by the Split Outreach Program.

If she won’t start talking about anything then I’ll tell her she’s not leaving me a choice and that I’m starting a divorce action and she needs a lawyer. (If she does start talking I’ll react to that but regardless I am starting a divorce).

That’s how I plan to ease her into this and try as best I can to minimize the volatility, which may be impossible but at least I will feel i tried.

Some things I am pondering. There are some things that need to happen that potentially put my kids into a compromising position.  First I need to tell them separately per all the advice I’ve gotten and per my own judgment. Jointly telling them is probably a disaster.

If my wife isnt participating I need them to bring some things and clothes to my new place. They will be worried she will be upset about their choices if she isn’t providing feedback or helping them make decisions sort of like “dad are you sure we should be doing this?” way. Not sure how to best help them or avoid setting them up for an awkward or angry exchange with their mother, mostly over clothes. (I am buying two of everything else they possess like coats, tablets, chromebooks etc).

When my stbx is served with the divorce papers, because she has been so uncompromising I, per legal advice, need to move for temporary orders on money and seeking 50/50 parenting  time. The papers detail her abuse, including four times babe has been physically abusive to me. This breach in her mind of loyalty and trust, combined with the attack on her parenting time and the reality that she can’t control things will be a massive shock to an already unstable person. Her identity is that she’s a mom and her conviction is that I’m bad for the kids. This is so explosive I discussed potentially getting an order for protection with my lawyers. I’ve chosen not to seek one due to the downstream effect that will have especially on the kids.

Also in the motion will be me relating some conversations I’ve had with the kids about some of her behavior. I’ve tried to tell her that she’s too hard on them especially our 13 yo. When she sees these conversations part of me worries she will feel betrayed by the kids and take it out on them. There is no precedent for that I’m just worried.

She is mostly a loving and supportive parent. They need time with her. Their relationship isn’t so bad they shouldn’t be with her. But they do need time away and time with me and what the kids have to say is part of that. I am moving for the kids to have a guardian at litem appointed and well almost certainly have a custody evaluation. But I’m afraid I’m potentially making my kids relationship with their mom harder.


So if this board can provide feedback of any kind I will once again be grateful n beyond measure. Thank you.

AlleyOop23

This thread has some great ideas and advice.

I’m just here to chime in especially about your 13 year old. My understanding is you have 2 daughters and you wife is hard on the 13 year old.
I was raised by a high functioning bpd/npd mother and my dad was mainly a narc. I’m currently going through divorce to a bpd husband.
My po is : don’t underestimate the emotional abuse that bpd mother will casually dish out to her daughter. Girls more than boys feel obligated to be nice and caring and are very easy subdue psychologically I mean. It gets worse in teenage years because girls run to their mothers for guidance as their bodies go through puberty. Now that’s how we’ve been programmed biologically but the bpd mother abuses the aspect of her parenting, uses it to control every aspect of female child’s life- her relationships, her needs, her thoughts. You daughter is very vulnerable, at this point.
As others have pointed out, the parental alienation may well be underway.
My parents are still married after 47 years of hell but I remember how scared I was of puberty and the fact that my mum convinced me I should be so scared of falling pregnant that even my dad was not a safe male to be around.
Your wife is so hard on your d13 because she’s priming her to be a caretaker and prepping her as an ally.

So my question will be how is your relationship with your daughter? Does she share easily with you?
The advice I have received here is to be the safe parent when dealing with bpd coparent.

Your plans outlined above a well thought through. I will also add that when you discuss the impending divorce with your children, do make their school/therapist aware, so they can provide much needed support.
Also one thing I did to combat parental alienation was to encourage my sons to have their own voice. No more secrets of what goes on at home. My husband was discouraging them from speaking up. In my care there was DV with the police involved so custody worked in my favour.

I also wonder if you might be able to get any evidence of emotional and psychological abuse through your daughter’s therapist. I don’t know how your courts view psychological abuse of children but being too harsh on a teenager counts as psychological abuse.

[ForeverDad]

If she won’t start talking about anything then I’ll tell her she’s not leaving me a choice and that I’m starting a divorce action and she needs a lawyer. (If she does start talking I’ll react to that but regardless I am starting a divorce).

That’s how I plan to ease her into this and try as best I can to minimize the volatility, which may be impossible but at least I will feel i tried.

One of our wonderful qualities is our care and concern for others.  One of our worst qualities when facing a divorce is... our care and concern for others.  No, not a typing mistake.  What I mean is that our natural (and otherwise wonderful) inclination is to look out for others more than ourselves.

Divorce is a matter where we need to put our interests as parents above our interests for the stbEx.  Why?  Here is a "what if" that has happened to many of us, myself included.

What if you inform your ex that you will be filing for separation/divorce.  What if she rushes out, files abuse allegations (either DV or child abuse), files first for you to have no parenting or at most supervised visitation?  Then you're cast as playing defense and catch up.

Court will not care how "nice" or "overly fair" either of you are.  Yes, you don't want to be outright nasty, but as long as you behave normally as though the judge is looking over your shoulder then you don't have to put your own strategies and position at risk of her sabotaging you.  Believe me, she will do enough of that on her own despite your careful preparation.

To file first is not being nasty.  (You telling her in advance would enable her to rush out and file first.)  The point is that with you filing first then false allegations and ridiculous demands could be reduced.

If my wife isnt participating I need them to bring some things and clothes to my new place. They will be worried she will be upset about their choices if she isn’t providing feedback or helping them make decisions sort of like “dad are you sure we should be doing this?” way. Not sure how to best help them or avoid setting them up for an awkward or angry exchange with their mother, mostly over clothes. (I am buying two of everything else they possess like coats, tablets, chromebooks etc).

When my stbx is served with the divorce papers, because she has been so uncompromising I, per legal advice, need to move for temporary orders on money and seeking 50/50 parenting time.

Better to phrase it as "50/50 parenting time at a minimum".  You will be filing with some details of her poor behavior?  But only ask for equal time?  Yes, your court might be reluctant to grant more to a father, but position yourself as the substantively better behaved parent.  Do not limit yourself needlessly.

If you ask for equal time and she asks for 99%, might the judge  "split the difference" and grant her temp custody and 75% majority time?

Even equal parenting authority can be problematic.  Ask your lawyer whether it's possible to seek Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  There will be many times your spouse will refuse to agree to common sense solutions.  Sure, having that decision status isn't a perfect solution, your stbEx could still protest it in court, but at least you wouldn't have to wait months for some professional to decide the outcome.

My history... Upon our separation some 15+ years ago - she was arrested for Threat of DV - that court gave me temp protection by assigning me in possession of our home.  She rushed over to family court and filed her own ex-parte protection order against me and included our preschooler.  Within a couple weeks we both appeared for the hearing and the CPS investigator stood up and stated they had "no concerns" about me.  So our child was excluded from her petition.

But family court still had to set a temp order going forward.  Despite her pending Threat of DV charge, me in possession of our home and CPS having no concerns about me, she got temp custody and temp majority time.  (That's how I learned that a spouse's poor adult behaviors does not automatically impact a spouse's presumed parenting ability.)  Of course everyone told me that my lack of custody and only alternate weekends was "just temporary" but I was stuck with that until the divorce's final decree TWO YEARS later.  Our sort of cases take longer than most.

[livednlearned]

Telling the kids can be really hard.

Your situation will be specific to you, and how they react. You might be surprised at what they say or how they process it.

Apologies if I'm repeating myself here but one thing I remember reading (after I left with my son, who was 10) is to drop into their worldview as much as you can. "Mom and dad both love you" is not necessarily what a 13-year-old is thinking about when suddenly there will be two homes.

Things like, "will I have two toothbrushes?" and "do I have to tell my friends" are probably racing through their minds more than who loves who. And it's probably better to focus on what you know -- you love them. Let them work out what love means when it comes to their mom without labeling it, because for all they know, that kind of love is extraordinarily painful.

One of the best books I read post-divorce was Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids. It's what led me to think of myself sort of like an emotional tuning fork. I was so stressed and anxious and so guess who was also stressed and anxious . S10 developed tics that popped up and went away almost to the moment I realized how much I needed to help center him by getting myself centered.

It's tough when you have a firehose of pain and abuse pointed at you 24/7 but you'll be in your own space, where you get to be you, and the kids will be attuned to how that feels, even as they surf their own confusing feelings.

My kid's nervous system is vulnerable so it might not be as pronounced, but I kinda think all kids are hoping someone's got this thing and is leading them to a more stable, safe environment, even when they're acting out or mad at you.

It's really sad it's come to this, and it's so tragic that there's not much that can be done when someone refuses to seek treatment or blame everyone else for their pain.

Your relationship with your kids might be different so this might not be advised, but my kid felt more confident when he saw I was confident. One day as we headed into our new apartment he said, "I feel bad for dad because he's probably lonely." And before I could check myself I answered, "He should've thought about that when he was being mean to us." He kind of lit up because that's how kid logic works and he knew it to be true. I spent a lot of years making excuses for his dad and that got really confusing. Being mean is being mean. Sometimes it's best to call it for what it is.

Kids aren't dumb. My son had friends at school but some of them concerned me, including a kid who behaved like a covert bully. After changing our family circumstances, and after S10 started a new school, he seemed to pick better friends. I think leaving his dad gave him a pick-me-up that I never anticipated. It signaled that you don't need to take it in the chin day in and day out. People can't just walk all over you.

Yes, it's true the family is breaking up. You're also choosing safety and well-being and defining what happens when people treat you like garbage. "I didn't like how I felt, how I was being treated" turns out to be a really helpful thing for kids to see modeled for them.

Hang in there, and lean on this board for support when you need it. 

It's going to be hard, and change is exhausting, but there's a good chance things will settle down into something that lets you feel like you can be more like yourself, giving your kids permission to be that way too.

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks - I’ve got a great relationship with the 13 yo. She does confide in me. Thanks for turning me back to focus on the emotional abuse. It is subtle so I will think about whether I am not giving it sufficient weight.

[AlleyOop23]

The cautionary tale is is helpful. Thank you for delivering it. Rather than scare me it makes me feel better. It makes me feel I’m getting advice that helps me consider more angles and possibilities. And it affirms my resolve to be unwielding.

I’ve gone cold and hard inside. I crossed some line and I can’t even force myself to feel bad for her right now. I’m just sick of it. I can’t wait to get the temp orders and get out of here.


On those few occasions when it’s the three of us without her and I just let them be kids and I can feel them depressurizing it just makes me feel good.

[AlleyOop23]

I’m dealing with some micro decisions could use your input.

1. We have 4 tickets to a
Show Friday. The kids are excited they’ve not seen it. I have a conference over the weekend and was going to fly out Saturday morning. It has now gotten so hostile I don’t want to go. I also
Don’t want my kids to think I am not excited to go with them. Left to myself, I would simply go to the conference that’s my preference.
If I skip the show do I tell my kids the truth? That I prefer to go but their mother is making it so awkward and difficult I’m just not going to go? Thereby upending the “united front don’t blame the other parent” convention.

2. Daughter 13 hurt her back a few weeks ago. And she really did. Both her mother and I now suspect she is exaggerating the injury to avoid returning to swim team.  (Using injury to avoid something is a LONG standing behavior by this kid going back
To like age 4).

We both agree this kid has to do something and she can quit swim but needs some sport. Also it’s too soon to quit this. She’s actually good at it.

This morning in front of her sister and two sleep over friends her mother  decided to call her out on it. When I intervened she turned on me (outside their hearing) and essentially said I was a dupe easily manipulated by our daughter  and  prone to believing her false tears and that she (mother) had intentionally brought it up in front of friends (though did not explain why).

I’m left in the messed up position of letting these things go or weighing in and making it worse.  Any advice? Plus I do need to deal with my kid on this. She’s not being honest, I don’t think. mom isn’t imagining it.

I believe I have to think about these things in the now but also for years. These are two perfect examples.
1. I will probably avoid things like parties at my stbx’s jouse or
Limit involvement due to stbx’s behavior. And that’s the only reason.


2. There will be legitimate issues that arise on which we disagree and I see having the additional job of trying to keep daughter’s self esteem intact without over correcting into being indulgent.


Theee are big issues I realize there’s no perfect advice but if you have thoughts or experiences please share!

[AlleyOop23]

Ps my kids are perceptive. I’m sure they know when I avoid things that their mother’s aggression is part of it. So not only do I want to make sure they know it isn’t them. But I also want to quit bullPLEASE READting them.

[ForeverDad]

1. I will probably avoid things like parties at my stbx’s house or
Limit involvement due to stbx’s behavior. And that’s the only reason.

Ended acting-out PD relationships require long lasting policies.  In my own case, the conflict had risen so high that we never entered the other's home once separated and divorced.  (Now that son is grown and custody is not an issue, it's not such a strict rule but I am always aware that literally any comment could trigger her all over again.)

So, what to do for parties or events?  Ponder your situation.  Some members here have decided to have two birthday parties.  If you have the event that year (usually alternated) then your ex can have her own celebration at another time.  If you don't have the event that year then you can set a date for your own alternate event.  Same concept with other holidays.

Some kids grow to like having two sets of holidays.

And the benefit is that you can maintain the need for separate households, separate celebrations.

Of course that won't work with school events, you can't double them.  But they're not at ex's house, right?

[EyesUp]

@OP
Sorry, I don't see the schedule conflict with the show on Friday night and a Sat AM departure.  Are you saying that due to conflict with your partner, you no long want to go to the show, and using an early departure on Friday as an excuse?

My $0.02. Always prioritize what's best for the kids. If sitting this one out is best for the kids, do that.  It has nothing to do with your schedule, which isn't really in conflict this time. The kids will come to recognize that doing things with parents individually is the new normal - make this is as easy and seamless for them as possible, as their mom might not...   If you're not comfortable leaving your kids with mom at this point, you have a different answer.

About the swimming thing.

It sounds like there's a method to mom's madness... i.e., engage social pressure. We know this is often an important factor for PD'd individuals, so it's not surprising that mom might actually view this proactive parenting...  fwiw, I agree with you that it might not be the best approach.

In any case, I'd prioritize your daughter's well being.  If you feel that the serious injury has been properly addressed and your daughter is well enough to return to swim, then you need to address the underlying avoidance behavior associated with this instance, as well as with a more established pattern that goes back to toddler years.  Given the changes that are likely coming to your family, have you considered either family therapy (super difficult with a PD'd participant), or individual therapy for your kids?  If possible, it's good to have those relationships established before the D process is rolling - so that the kids have an objective 3rd party in place to help them navigate a lot of feelings and uncertainty as things progress.

As for joint events with mom...

In my case, I think I could do it, but my uBPDxw projects all responsibility for the failure of the marriage on to me, is easily triggered, etc., so I have not pushed on this topic.  So far (coming up on 3 years since separation, and 2 years since D was finalized), all b-days for 3 kids have fallen during my ex's parenting time.  My ex scheduled the parties (and asked me to pay but not to attend...), but I still celebrated with a small cake, etc., when I'd see the kids a day or two later.  This year, two kids' b-days fall on days they are with me, and so I will celebrate at my house.  I do wish that we could coordinate to throw a party together, but that's not in the cards.  It's also less important for some kids as they get older.  My uBPDxw never wanted to include family in the kids' parties when they were young - we did the usual gym / arts / ice cream place parties when they were toddlers and in pre-school, but as they aged out of those formats my ex wanted to do "afternoon tea with mommy" and make the special day about her... (N traits? Probably), and so the kids don't really expect a large gathering with friends or family at this point.  I share this story because perhaps it will help you think ahead better than I did to ensure you celebrate in whatever way is best for you, your traditions, your family - and most of all - for your kids.

FWIW, when I always greet my ex-inlaws warmly at school concerts, recitals, etc. - and make a point to let the kids know (directly or indirectly) that I'm always going to be there for them, and I'm not going to put them in any kind of conflict-bind with their mom or mom's family.

[AlleyOop23]

So many times my stbx has had a mental crisis requiring me to drop everything and go deal with it. We did that again yesterday. She screamed at me for an hour. At this point I am tolerating this to keep it from spilling over when the kids are home. I used to do it because I was afraid of losing her and of being a bad spouse.

After I leave I get these messages. Background she’s had suicidal ideation and I’ve gone behind her back to make sure her psychiatrist and doctor know about it. She’s sees them both regularly.

Texts-
I can hold on anymore with this much pain.
You’ll never know how much worse that all made it for me. That was truly a cliff you pushed me over.
Be a good dad to them. Figure out what that means.
Make sure they are heard and loved. And don’t compromise what best for them for what me you cimforwbleZ get them what they need make sure if if
Make sure! You have to give them everything I’d give them
They’ll need you so much.
It will all be beentre this way
You’ll finally have to figure it out without me around
I really hope the three of you can have a good life


So I turn around and call 911. The police come I get there and she’s furious. Still furious. I was honestly scared she’s never talked like that before. But aware it could be manipulation. I’d have been back with the kids within an hour and I really doubt she’d risk that kind of experience for them.

After they leave she tells me she said whatever they needed to hear to leave. She says “you should have let me go.”. And “you don’t know what was actually going. On and now I’ll never trust you.” She accused me of calling the police to pad the record for a custody fight. She told me to move out immediately. I said I would not. That I’ll be out by the end of February latest but not abruptly and not without preparing the kids. In our state I risk the temporary custody result if I move  out now before a hearing.

I’m putting this up here not knowing what I’ll get back. I realize if she actually does want to commit suicide I cannot stop her. My belief is that wasn’t a real threat or attempt. If it was manipulative hopefully the fact that I’ll call 911 made that less attractive. But I called 911 because I thought they’d get there before me. (They didn’t)

It was really messed up and I feel like o got run over emotionally. Ot was a real low point.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop -

You're in the thick of it. Making that 911 call was absolutely the right thing to do, on every level. 

As an aside, I had to make a similar call, and I don't regret it.

Your stbx is going to be extra extra spicy from here on out - Expect it.

If holidays and kids' birthdays and other "normal" events can be triggering, you don't need to imagine what the uncertainty and emotional turmoil of separation and divorce will bring... 

Don't lose sight of this:  You're also experiencing this separation and divorce, and it's also a major change for you. But are you raging at your stbx, threatening self harm, or otherwise acting out? 

You have the benefit of self-awareness, reflection, objectivity...  your stbx does not. Chaos is generally surprising, but somehow less surprising when it happens all the time. Expect more of the same from your stbx. Just for reinforcement... From here on out, you need to continue to be a sphinx, a statue, unmoveable - grey rock.

Make sure that your mediator and/or atty are aware that of the text communication prior to the 911 call, as your stbx will likely try to reframe it. PD'd individuals are super triggered when exposed - I expect that she will strongly resent that you made that call, and may attempt to deny it or somehow change it or to take revenge for it. She will not be able to accept responsibility - she will try to shift it to you.
 
Don't be surprised if whoever responded to the 911 call has a follow up action to interview you. Be prepared to calmly and concisely explain the situation. Do not be surprised if your stbx makes her own 911 call and makes a false DV (domestic violence) claim. Now is the time to have your dvr (digital voice recorder) running 24/7 as long as you continue to cohabitate - whether legal in your state or not, it is the only thing that will save you if your stbx makes that allegation. I know it's slightly reckless to advise recording if it's illegal in your state, but - people have been in your situation and have been saved by recording. Try to find evidence that anyone has ever been convicted of illegally recording in their own home after presenting audio evidence... it doesn't happen. When the police come to your house, you will be arrested without much discussion unless you immediately say: "I have a recording of the past 24 hours that shows all claims are false, and I will make no further statement without my attorney present". You may still get carried away to the station, but at least her motion for sole occupancy, restraining order, etc., based on DV will be denied (and she will be exposed again).

If she makes some call to CPS, do not speak to them without an atty present, period. If they come to your house, don't open the door, tell them you'll be glad to schedule a time to speak with them at your atty's office. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but as the saying goes: Hope for the best, Prepare for the worst.

How's it going with resources for the kids? I'd advise proposing therapists to your stbx via email. This will help document that you're the parent with the kids' interests front and center as you go through this.

Words of encouragement: As I went through this, and finally started to see my uBPDxw more clearly, my resolve to proceed only got stronger. When my D process started, I was still ambivalent. I didn't want a D, but I accepted that I didn't have a healthy marriage. But as I moved through the D process, I came to embrace the D - in the end, it couldn't happen fast enough. Separation did help to chart a new routine. I never slept better than that first night of separation... 

Hang in there.

[SaltyDawg]

AlleyOop23,

   You absolutely did the right thing by ringing 911.  You didn't know if your wife was manipulating the situation, or she was genuine - one simply cannot tell how serious they are about doing this, it can go from manipulation to a serious suicide attempt in mere seconds - I have witnessed this with my own wife (putting pills in her mouth) and with another person too.

   Since you are moving through divorce, absolutely preserve that text message, and get a copy of the 911 report too, and turn it over to your attorney, they will be able to use this documentation if your stbxw has a different narrative that what is evidenced with the text.

   Now that your stbxw knows you will ring 911 if she does that - if I were a betting man, I am willing to wager that you will no longer see this kind of behavior from your wife as she will experience this consequence of her actions (unless she actually follows through, and then it will be the police letting you know after someone finds her).

   Encourage your stbxw to text or ring 988 if she feels this way again instead of messaging you, where you will be compelled to follow through on the boundary of ringing 911.  988 will do an assessment if it needs to be escalated to 911, otherwise, the conversation she has with 988 will be kept in confidence in accordance HIPAA rules.

   If you want the 'screaming' rages to stop from your stbxw, consider putting in place a stronger boundary in place, that you can manage.  For my uBPDw, I've put an end to my wife's screaming, even though it returned briefly this past Tuesday in an episode (it used to be as frequent as being done on a daily basis and on a few occasions more than once per day, now it averages about once per month for the past half year).  I will simply not engage (with JADE, or any other conversation) when she becomes this way.  I give her a warning, and then follow through with it - in essence I 'gray rock' her when she does this, our former therapist wanted me to give her 10 minutes, this is not enough time for her to re-regulate her emotions, so I offer to talk about it again tomorrow morning (it requires a sleep cycle for my wife to re-regulate, and occasionally two).  I record my wife's screaming deregulation (when I can) on my cell phone.  You might want to do the same here, as you want to limit the amount of abuse that goes to our children.  Since I have boundaries, my wife took it out on our daughter (17) initially, until I intervened - when you toughen yourself up from her target of blame, it may shift elsewhere, as it did for me, and you need to have a plan to protect your children from this kind of behavior as my 12 yo has also been her target occasionally before I can put myself between them.  No one should be subjected to this kind of behavior.

   Be sure to do some self-care, as I am sure this took a lot of your emotional energy, to fill your cup back up, so you have enough energy when she does this again.

   Take care.

SD

[AlleyOop23]

Well, Monday I canceled my day and spent 6 hours listening to my stbx. She was unsatisfied and thought I should have followed up later that night of the next morning. I’d planned to. Doesn’t matter. 915 am she calls me at work losing her mind and rage texting me for neglecting her. I go home and she screams at me for 45 minutes straight. At the end she grabs a yeti water bottle and slams it into the kitchen counter as hard as she can, repeatedly. She leaves. She texts insisting I leave tonight. She makes veiled threats about an altercation over it and calls to the police.

I spent a lot of time on the phone with lawyers. Do I stay and risk jail? Or leave and be cast as an abandoning father.

Mostly I get “can’t you just avoid her?”

When I get home she assures me if I try to stay I will have to physically assault her.

I decided she was serious. She also hid my meds contacts and glasses to ensure I’d leave. The criminal attorney I talked to was pretty blunt about me going to jail and getting a no contact order .  So I left after my kids went to bed.
I’m sleeping at the place I rented in a sleeping bag.

My plan currently is to file for divorce and get a restraining order against her. I can’t live by threat. I was not going to do that.

How did my life end up like this? My poor kids didn’t ask for this.

[ForeverDad]

Do you have any documentation or witnesses of her aggressive behavior?

I separated over 15 years ago when all I had were so audio files from voice recorders with her ranting and rages.  She did virtually all of her acting-out in private scenarios such as at home or while we were driving.  I figured that if she claimed to be a helpless victim then recordings of reality would reduce my risks of allegations.

She still made allegations but somehow I managed to avoid getting arrested. My lawyer said that was a real risk and it would be very, very expensive to defend myself.

I've since then come up with a wonderful way to describe why I recorded.  "I was only recording myself to document I wasn't the one being aggressive and abusive.  If others there were recorded too, well..."

It is important that you don't leave the kids behind.  However, it can be difficult to bring them with you since attempting that would likely create a nasty incident.  The legal but darned slow way would be to file for a protection order and include the kids, assuming you have some documentation of her poor parenting behavior.  At the least you ought to be able to walk out from the hearings with a "temp" custody and parenting order.

Problem is, many courts may still be likely to ignore that mothers can be abusive.  Back when I separated my court defaulted to a preference for mothers.  (She had been charged with Threat of DV yet she got temp custody and majority parenting until the final divorce decree two years later.  Apparently a person could be a bad adult yet not impact her mothering?)  I hear it's better in many areas now, but it's still a risk that you could face resistance to fathers stepping up to parent.

[AlleyOop23]

You sound like my lawyers. Dont move out and don’t get arrested.

I’m literally going to have to camp out in my room and wait to get jumped and hope the police don’t arrest me.

I have never felt this alone and helpless in my entire life.

[kells76]

Have you already tried setting up a meeting at the police station where you can discuss your concerns and ask them to either make a record of the meeting, and/or ask them what they'd recommend?

You can go down to the station on a lunch break from work, for example, or other non-crisis time. Describe your situation to them, ask to get this meeting on the record somehow, and ask them what you should do if XYZ happens. Or, call the non-emergency number first, and ask if you can just drop in or need to set up an appointment.

Also, review if your US state is a "mandatory arrest", "discretionary arrest", or other state. Sometimes, if a DV call is made, the police may be required to arrest one party no matter what. Other times, they may be able to use their own discretion and an arrest isn't legally required. This list may be helpful, though definitely double check with your local police.

Getting something on the record ahead of time about your concerns may mitigate the fear that the police will just arrest you. They may not -- see if you can work with them ahead of time.

[ForeverDad]

When I called emergency line, first time, two police cars responded.  One officer asked me to hand my quietly sobbing preschooler over to his mother and "step away".  My kid shrieked and clung tighter to me.  He refused to go to his angry looking mother.  (I know, kids don't get choices.)  I suspected me stepping away was to cart me off.  The officer pondered me for a moment, said "work it out" and they left.

Months later when I got a new lawyer (for the separation morphing into a divorce) he remarked, "I used to be a police officer.  We always separate the couples after responding to a family dispute call.  We always default to removing the man.  I'm surprised they didn't."

I always say, my preschooler saved me that day.

[EyesUp]

I spent a lot of time on the phone with lawyers. Do I stay and risk jail? Or leave and be cast as an abandoning father.

Mostly I get “can’t you just avoid her?”

When I get home she assures me if I try to stay I will have to physically assault her.

I decided she was serious. She also hid my meds contacts and glasses to ensure I’d leave. The criminal attorney I talked to was pretty blunt about me going to jail and getting a no contact order .  So I left after my kids went to bed.
I’m sleeping at the place I rented in a sleeping bag.

@AlleyOop

I'm going to switch into straight-talk express mode.

If you leave the marital home, you are essentially saying "I'm 100% comfortable leaving the kids with her" - you need to get back in there ASAP and don't work with any attorney that tells you differently. 

Tell her it was a cooling off period.  If she immediately rages, be ready to take action.

Do you have a voice recorder yet?  Get one ASAP, and use it 24/7 - essential before you go back, and essential whenever you have any contact - at home, on the phone - all the time.

The recording of her comments re: physical assault are/were your get-out-of-jail card. 

You can't get a restraining order against her from wherever you are.  You need to get back in the house, immediately call 911 when she rages, and then get the restraining order.  If she makes a false call against you, present your voice recorder.

You can file for D anytime, you don't need to get the restraining order first, but - be ready for anything.

As you continue dialog with attorneys, you need a litigator - not a negotiator.   You're seeking a veteran family law attorney with experience in litigating (not negotiating) high-conflict cases.  Be explicit about what you want to accomplish, i.e., goal to be primary parent, but no less than 50-50 parenting time due to your many concerns.  Attorneys will ask about evidence - mention the prior 911 call... 

Good luck and hang in there.

[livednlearned]

I have never felt this alone and helpless in my entire life.

We're here with you. You're not alone.

<Breathe>

You're in the part of the hero's journey where it can seem dark but there are people here who care about you and can help guide you.

If you haven't already, write down everything that happened. If there's someone you trust, tell them what happened. Or have them write things down and send you an email after the call detailing what you told them, with a recommendation to speak to a criminal lawyer.

We had a member on this board from years ago named Matt. I'm channeling his advice here -- if your wife is making threats about false allegations, consult with a criminal lawyer to help you stay a few steps ahead. Hopefully, you won't need to retain that lawyer, that advice is there to protect you from things getting any harder.

I gotta say ... it's good she's telling you this is on her mind. I know it feels horrible where you're at, but better here than having her blindside you with an actual allegation. A criminal law attorney will probably be thrilled that you're calling from your sleeping bag versus jail.

Family law attorneys usually specialize in negotiation. A criminal attorney is going to give you very specific advice about dealing with a false allegation.

I agree too with EyesUp about making sure your family law attorney is able to litigate. Mine was and it makes all the difference, something I didn't understand until my ex cranked up the drama and became a vexatious litigant. We were in court an average of once a month for 4 years  . Some lawyers are good at paperwork and some are good at arguing on your behalf, and ideally yours will be the latter.

When you consult with a criminal attorney ask what steps to take. That will help build that trail of documentation so it's crystal clear who the aggressor is. I'm not sure if threatening to falsely accuse you is the same as falsely accusing you -- a criminal lawyer who specializes in DV will be able to tell you.

Only a criminal lawyer can tell you whether to return to the marital home or not. Your family law attorney probably hasn't walked this razor's edge and is simply telling you what will make the case easier, versus what to do with an actual threat.

I know these emotions are probably flooding you. Dread is the worst.

This board helped me through some similarly dark times and guided me through these hard forks. You've got people here who really understand what you're going through 

[SaltyDawg]

AlleyOop,

I agree 100% with Eyes Up.

I also agree with LnL, and to do some self-care even if it is just 'breathing'.  We know this is stressful for you. 

I will add the following, that I can personally attest, once you get out of the picture, the target of blame and bad behaviors will shift to the next most vulnerable person that she loves in her immediate vicinity - the child(ren).

This has been observed in both of my current and past pwBPD romantic relationships.

Take care.

SD

[Skip]

A cautionary word...

AlleyOop, you sound motivated, but you do not sound prepared at this point. Please don't be offended by this. I say it to help you and your family. And I say this as someone who has watched "this story" (your story) play out many times in other families.

It sounds like you've decided to leave your wife, which is probably right for you. The question is how to do it without traumatizing the children and yourself and losing your kids in the process.

Transitioning from a family (however conflicted) into two households with an emotionally immature spouse in the Northwest family court system is a tricky sea to navigate.

How bad can it get?

One BPDFamily member's story ended up on national television and he was rebuked as an awful father by the morning show anchors (including Matt Lauer) and on multiple networks. Read about it here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psycho_Ex-Wife). His children was humiliated in the community. Their relationship with dad was destroyed.  

We have another father who ended up on Dr. Phil with his daughters, telling Dr. Phil that their dad sexually abused them. His name and photo ended up being distributed on Facebook by a child abuse agency.

There are many other, less sensational but difficult, stories in our archives.

You have two battles.  The court and legal side.  And the battle to maintain the relationship with your children...

Yes. Yeeter is telling you that this is your achilles heal... often overlooked. You need a lawyer and advisors who get this - genuinely get it (not just lip service).

Moving out before temporary orders are agreed to is typically not in the father's best interest - both in terms of splitting the assets and in terms of setting custody schedules - as has been mentioned by some posters earlier in this thread. Dig into this with members.

In your state, 50/50 visitation is only ordered 20% of the time. The most common visitation for Dad is every other weekend.  Judges generally won't order 50/50 unless the parents clearly have an interest in doing this and they can manage it without making the children's lives an exchange drama. If there is conflict between the divorcing spouses, 50/50 is typically not seen by Judges as being in the children's best interest.

And in a divorce with an "emotionally needy" spouse, Parental Alienation (PAS) is more common than you might think. Children hate it when parents break apart - it shatters the foundation of their lives. They can be vulnerable to one parent playing the victim and blaming this tragedy on the other parent. Some kids will rush to protect mom from dad.

I'm not saying this to convince you to stick out your marriage, but you may need a good plan. Know your risks and get advice/plan how to mitigate them or find acceptance in some of the harsh realities of family court.

Sorry to be a downer, but it's better to hear this now before you find yourself in the middle of something very different than you expect.

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks all. I had roughest day ever. Talked to a criminal attorney, divorce coach, therapist and my family law attorneys. The criminal defense attorney is pretty conservative, former prosecutor, assured me if the police came 99% I end up in jail overnight with a no contact order completely undoing the goal. So staying loses my kids and leaving loses my kids. I told my attorneys I needed serious legal help and a plan.

Given the threats of assault and false reports, hiding the meds and glasses and threats of suicide my family law attorney and paralegal (both as it turns out with extensive domestic abuse work background) recommended I seek a domestic violence protection order. I agreed and they said it was so bad they likely would withdraw if I hadn’t said yes. They’ve done this a lot and given recent events and evidence are certain I’ll qualify.  Working on requested terms tomorrow. Adjusting to demand for full custody in the D case. I went to the house to get some necessary items with a hired PI.

I believe we have the best possible plan. We’ll ask for custody, figure out residence request tomorrow guardian at litem, custody eval and a mental exam and meaningful therapy. 

I do actually feel prepared and represented for context.  The therapist, attorneys, coach, were all great in helping me move forward.

My stbx is really spiraling. She is up and down. Assuming the dvpo is granted she’ll be served with it by law enforcement. I understand that she can’t be my problem. And even that this might help her actually see herself and maybe actually get real help. But I am very worried about her. She’s cut herself off,  burning friendships. If she’s ordered to leave I don’t know where she goes. Or who helps her.

I struggle with the guilt of setting this in motion though it isn’t my fault in the first place. This is the only viable and responsible path. It’s the best optional for my kids. I don’t want to keep them from their mom. Maybe we can figure something out in the dvpo.
And it could flop. I am overwhelmed at the possibility of single dadding 2 traumatized kids, getting myself thru this and running my business.
I’m a long way from anywhere near done.  But decent step.

[SaltyDawg]

AlleyOop,

   Thank you for sharing this glimmer of hope when things seem so dark for you.  It sounds like you have surrounded yourself with a good team that has your best interest in mind. 

   I didn't see any mention of a safety plan in place - if you don't have one yet, get one (use this one for starters https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf )

Thanks all. I had roughest day ever. Talked to a criminal attorney, divorce coach, therapist and my family law attorneys. The criminal defense attorney is pretty conservative, former prosecutor, assured me if the police came 99% I end up in jail overnight with a no contact order completely undoing the goal. So staying loses my kids and leaving loses my kids. I told my attorneys I needed serious legal help and a plan.

Follow the advice of all of these people, and if there is a conflict in advice, defer to the family law attorneys recommendation. 

Given the threats of assault and false reports, hiding the meds and glasses and threats of suicide my family law attorney and paralegal (both as it turns out with extensive domestic abuse work background) recommended I seek a domestic violence protection order. I agreed and they said it was so bad they likely would withdraw if I hadn’t said yes. They’ve done this a lot and given recent events and evidence are certain I’ll qualify.  Working on requested terms tomorrow. Adjusting to demand for full custody in the D case. I went to the house to get some necessary items with a hired PI.

What I put in bold, please reflect and ponder statement - even though us 'guys' don't like to admit it, we also can be the victim of DV.  The family law attorney would have withdrawn from representing YOU if you had not agreed to filing a DVPO - this is very serious.

I believe we have the best possible plan. We’ll ask for custody, figure out residence request tomorrow guardian at litem, custody eval and a mental exam and meaningful therapy.

 

Guardian ad Litem - is a court appointed attorney to represent your children's best interest, not yours, not your wife's.  If possible, have your family law attorney make recommendations to the court on who should represent your children's best interest and who they should avoid, if at all possible - just like in any profession, you have good ones, and not so good ones.

I do actually feel prepared and represented for context.  The therapist, attorneys, coach, were all great in helping me move forward.

You are much better prepared than a few days ago.  Just like learning about BPD, learning about this is a process.  The more involved you are, as you have a 'vested interest' you can be of great help to your attorney (and it will help shave costs) - ask your attorney what kinds of information that (s)he needs to aid you and your children's situation so you can have the best possible outcome for your children and yourself.

My stbx is really spiraling. She is up and down. Assuming the dvpo is granted she’ll be served with it by law enforcement. I understand that she can’t be my problem. And even that this might help her actually see herself and maybe actually get real help. But I am very worried about her. She’s cut herself off,  burning friendships. If she’s ordered to leave I don’t know where she goes. Or who helps her.

I struggle with the guilt of setting this in motion though it isn’t my fault in the first place. This is the only viable and responsible path. It’s the best optional for my kids. I don’t want to keep them from their mom. Maybe we can figure something out in the dvpo.

As soon as she is served the DVPO, this is when your stbx will become most dangerous, for the next day or two - she will have lost any perception of control of the situation, and she will become very desperate with a 'nothing to lose' mentality and has the potential to emotionally explode in an irrational and possibly unforseen way(s) towards you - make sure you have a body camera on you person at all times, it is fully charged, has plenty of room on the memory card, and is recording as this will be your 'get out of jail free card' should she physically attack you as a result of this order being served to her after law enforcement leaves.  Make sure your cell phone is fully charged too in case you need to call 911 and get the back ASAP.

Right now you need to keep the children away from her, at least until you know what her mental state is.  I will share with you, now that I have hardened myself with strong boundaries against 'abuse', my wife has shifted her violent tendencies towards my daughter for the first time ever where she threw a shovel in anger towards her - I am taking this very seriously, I did share this with our couple's therapist, a former CPS LCSW and is in agreement with me.  Please be under no illusion that your stbx may lose it on your children, if they are not with you to protect them!  I know my wife is capable of it, as she demonstrated it through her actions, last week even though she professes otherwise where she 'cares for the children' - the facts do not mesh with her stated version of caring.

And it could flop. I am overwhelmed at the possibility of single dadding 2 traumatized kids, getting myself thru this and running my business.
I’m a long way from anywhere near done.  But decent step.

Until it actually 'happens' it could flop, so have a backup plan in place.  It is very overwhelming that you  have to go through this.  Perhaps brainstorm with your therapist and/or close confidante on how to pivot and shift to being a single dad of 2 traumatized kids.

I'm glad you realize that you are a long way from being 'anywhere near done', and yes, you have taken a few decent steps towards this.  Use your team for support, come here and vent, and we can offer you emotional support as well.

In any event, be mindful that your stbx might be recording you too, in addition to your own recording device (which can be subpoenaed).  ALWAYS keep your cool, do not display any anger, contempt, or do anything that could make you look bad in a custody battle, even if it is tearing you up on the inside.

It is okay to cry, it is okay to feel the way you do, even if you feel a lot of FOG (fear obligation and guilt) right now towards this situation, this is what makes you, human with a heart, compassion, and empathy towards this situation.

Now, more than ever, please do self-care, whatever that might look like for you, as you need to fill your cup to keep 'being there' for your children, and yourself with your business.

If you know the date/time the DVPO will be served, and when you will get custody of your children, perhaps plan a trip for a few days with your children, out of town (at least 50 miles if not more), perhaps an indoor water-park to distract both your children and you from the situation, and this will put a distance between you and the stbx so there can be no physical altercation (still have your body cam on, in case she has tracking on your phone, and/or your children's and locates you - turn off the GPS position on each of these devices if you can prior to going on the trip).  If she shows up in violation of the order, it works to your advantage as it will show 'intent' on deliberately violating the order as she has gone 100+ miles and several hours out of her way.

Take care.  You 'got this'.

SD

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks. Lots of FOG. I get things done and then cry. I try to picture the future reality of the family so I can frame it for my kids but of course I can’t. My subconscious keeps trying to minimize all this so life can be ‘normal’ and not awful.
I keep trying to figure how I’m going to frame this for my kids. They know things are bad.  But they don’t know things are dvpo bad. Or even that situations like this happen

I can’t think of anything like this in my community as a child I can relate to.  Certainly not with the mom.

[Tangled mangled]

Thanks. Lots of FOG. I get things done and then cry. I try to picture the future reality of the family so I can frame it for my kids but of course I can’t. My subconscious keeps trying to minimize all this so life can be ‘normal’ and not awful.
I keep trying to figure how I’m going to frame this for my kids. They know things are bad.  But they don’t know things are dvpo bad. Or even that situations like this happen

I can’t think of anything like this in my community as a child I can relate to.  Certainly not with the mom.

You are right in the middle of the worst part of all this. Being stuck literally in a situation that could go awfully wrong.

Please be sure to keep video recordings of your dealings with your pwbpd. When I was in the same situation the police advised me to have video records to support my claim. In my case I faced the fear of being physically attacked by someone who is almost twice my size. In yours your biggest threat is a false claim of DV.
Things got better after I left and although the children were upset and blamed me initially, they are doing well 8 months after the separation. We are no longer in flight or fight mode.
Hang in there and protect yourself with body cameras.

[Skip]

Trying to understand the plan...

Are you hoping to serve a DVPO on her and have her move out of the marital home (and away from the children) until the end of February and? In that time you are going to serve with divorce papers asking for full custody, and try to get before a judge to get temporary orders in place? In temporary orders you are asking for full custody (or 50/50)?

And then you will move to your new place under the terms of the temporary orders?

I understand that this is just unfolding... just trying to get our hands around it.

[AlleyOop23]

I’ll file for divorce asap. It’s unfolding. Probably full custody we are deciding today on what to do about the home and where to live. I don’t want to live there. But the place I rented I just got and have ZERO furniture not e en a garbage csn

[AlleyOop23]

I can’t get my head around my 13 yos bat mitzvah. It’s in 3 months. Mom and 13 yo planning a big party. I’m a non Jewish spouse and parent.

I didn’t crest this situation but I am mindful of the pace in my 13 yos psyche that a ruined bar mitzvah holds if it is ruined due to a restraining order.

[SaltyDawg]

Thanks. Lots of FOG. I get things done and then cry. I try to picture the future reality of the family so I can frame it for my kids but of course I can’t. My subconscious keeps trying to minimize all this so life can be ‘normal’ and not awful.
I keep trying to figure how I’m going to frame this for my kids. They know things are bad.  But they don’t know things are dvpo bad. Or even that situations like this happen

I can’t think of anything like this in my community as a child I can relate to.  Certainly not with the mom.

I would recommend contacting the national domestic violence hotline at https://www.thehotline.org/ and they should be able to point you in a good direction to frame it in an age appropriate way, or your own therapist should be able to help too.

How old are your daughters?  I know one is 13, can you remind me how old the other one is?

How much of the violence have they witnessed, perhaps you can explain that mommy has an illness (in the head) and needs help, and is going away in order to get this help and to keep them (your children) safe.  Try and coordinate her being served with the DV order while the children are at school.

Those are my initial thoughts on this matter.  I have a S12 and D17, with whom I explain in an 'age appropriate' way of my wife's behaviors that are not normal, when she has a major 'episode', and my S has had therapy on this as well, so if and when it happens they will already have an understanding of the circumstances behind it, even if they may not like it.  Children know a lot more than you may think, when I started talking to mine about it, they had already teamed up between themselves in order to deal with mom and dad's "toxic" (invalidating) behaviors.  I was included, as I would often validate my wife's opinion (when appropriate). 

Talk with them, and you might be pleasantly surprised on how much they already know, and it will be incredibly validating to them that you know as well, and that you have their back - this is what happened to me.  Just be sure, that they know that you are their parent, and you will still need to do the parenting - they will understand and respect boundaries if they push back on you.

Encourage them to ask questions, and answer them to the best of your ability, in an age appropriate way.  If you don't know the answer, tell them you don't know (write the question down) and tell them you will find out.  It is important to validate your children's feelings during this time.  Focus on their feelings, and only address the facts if they force the issue.

By talking to them about it, ask them what they know (put them in the driver's seat), weigh what they tell you, and use that as a starting point from their respective perspective - this is what I have done, and I am glad I have already done this, so if and when a PO is necessary I will be as prepared as I possibly can.  I suspect you haven't done this yet, so you are a little bit behind the 8-ball on this; however, when you do have the conversation, understand what they know, and run with that information to get them to a better place.  Perhaps schedule a family therapy session an hour or two after school to deal with this.

Will CPS be involved with the DVPO?  If so, they will be on your side, and can be a valuable resource in this matter.

Lots to think about, keep getting stuff done (even if you are in tears doing so). 

Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

I can’t get my head around my 13 yos bat mitzvah. It’s in 3 months. Mom and 13 yo planning a big party. I’m a non Jewish spouse and parent.

I didn’t crest this situation but I am mindful of the pace in my 13 yos psyche that a ruined bar mitzvah holds if it is ruined due to a restraining order.

3 months is a very long time away right now - revisit this after the dust settles from the DVPO and initial custody hearings when you know more of the facts.  I strongly suspect it will most likely be possible to have the bat mitzvah, add this to your list of questions for the family law attorney the next time you talk to them on how to handle this.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop.  A lot of moving parts, but you're moving.  The hardest steps are the first steps, and you're stepping...

Very good comments from Skip.

Do you have that voice recorder or cameras going?  Do not sleep on this.

In regard to the GAL.  This can be requested or ordered.  If requested, I encourage you to ask your atty to recommend 3 options that can be presented to your wife.  You should have some comfort with the options, rather than leaving it up to the judge/court to assign their buddy or whoever is next in rotation.  Some GALs have the right training for cases like yours, some don't.  If this is a request, then you have some chance to influence the selection process by at least completing your own review to ensure that the options that are presented to your wife have the right background.

The GAL request may not be entirely necessary - it really depends on how the next steps play out, and what your wife and her counsel may or may not be prepared to accept.  There's a chance that when facing huge consequences for her behavior, her entitlement and rage may begin to deflate... or, lacking funds to engage a protracted legal battle, she may be prepared to settle - at least for a moment - in which case, you might be able to side step the GAL, at least for a moment.  

Please try to separate your need for emotional support from your need for legal support.

Come here and speak with your T for emotional support (plus some practical advice from those who have been through it).  This will help reduce your legal expenses (no point paying them to listen to you vent unless it's to help make the strategy).

Not to cast doubt, however I am slightly concerned that your counsel is hot to trot on the GAL before the basic filing and or request for DVPO are complete.  It's good to anticipate and learn and prepare for this possible path, but it may also indicate that your atty sees a high conflict case and is ready to sign you up for the ultra-delux, all-inclusive, most-expensive divorce package.

In cases like ours, it might not be avoidable - but still better to go in armed with knowledge of options so you can proceed with confidence.

But here's the thing you need to keep in mind:  You cannot fully outsource this.  You can hire a "team" of "experts" - but much like your business, it's up to you to run this thing.  They all work for you.  You are the President and CEO of your divorce - and your life.

The way it works in my state, you're not assigned a judge until you file.  And your attorney might want to advise strategy based on experience with the specific judge in the case... Some judges are more nimble with the GAL process than others.  

Signing up for a GAL before you're at that point might be a great idea - from your atty's POV.  I'd simply want to be sure I fully understand that POV.

It's so much to absorb in very little time, under the most stressful conditions...  

Hang in there.

[SaltyDawg]

I’ll file for divorce asap. It’s unfolding. Probably full custody we are deciding today on what to do about the home and where to live. I don’t want to live there. But the place I rented I just got and have ZERO furniture not e en a garbage csn

I know the home is not the place you want to live; however, your children need to have something familiar especially if that is all that they know.  Work with a T & GAL to see if moving them out of this home is appropriate.

Do you own that home or is it rented/leased?  If so, run out the lease and then move (generally a year or less).  If you own, then it will be joint marital property and will be part of the divorce proceedings.  Alternatively, you can move their furniture out into the rental home (ask your attorney on this one) so they have familiarity of their possessions.

What are your thoughts on this?

Take Care

SD

[EyesUp]

3 months is a very long time away right now - revisit this after the dust settles from the DVPO and initial custody hearings when you know more of the facts.  I strongly suspect it will most likely be possible to have the bat mitzvah, add this to your list of questions for the family law attorney the next time you talk to them on how to handle this.

I support this statement.  I think exceptions can be anticipated and granted.  That's downstream.

Also, these are the consequences of your pwBPD's behavior and actions.  She is a full participant in this via DV and threat of DV, when she should be focused on the kids. It sounds like you're the only one considering the kids at the moment, but your hand is forced by her behavior and threats, etc.  Reminder re: FOG...  It sounds like you're seeing it.

Hang in there.

[Skip]

I didn’t crest this situation but I am mindful of the pace in my 13 yos psyche that a ruined bar mitzvah holds if it is ruined due to a restraining order.

Alley',

Do you see any way to amp this down? I can tell you are well versed in the law and can afford legal resources and consultants, and you are trying to thread a needle, and I respect that.

I'm concerned that you could be teeing up an ultra high conflict situation - and in most high conflict divorces both parties feel the other one forced it - and the battle takes on a life of its own with both parties blaming each other for the subsequent escalations.

Coming in heavy can also create an environment where you wife can more easily alienate the children against you. Kids hate to see the parents fight and are confused when the family falls apart. They can be manipulated to blame and shun one parent.

Were the kids at home when the police came?

A 911 call, a DVPO, ousting from the marital home, serving divorce papers, and taking her away from her babies (and suing to do it long term), is going to amp this into the stratosphere.

Even if the judge tamps this down, her just knowing you were willing to do this could set this divorce on a lose-lose trajectory.

I understand that hitting her with all of this stuff could bring her to her knees and force her be compliant to just survive it - military victory. At the same time, family court is a crap shoot for a man and highly biased to the mom. As you have said, she has been a good mom, the implied suicide was probably just drama, and the domestic violence claim might not get any traction with the judge.

My suggestion is to factor in very carefully how your plan will affect the battle for the hearts and minds of the children. Be careful not to underestimate this.

I know I'm making this seem more complex. It is very complex. I'm trying to help.

Skip

[livednlearned]

To echo Skip, maybe we can brainstorm with you what it might look like to dial things down. Your nervous system is probably in BPD stratosphere itself. We can all get a bit BPD when a high-conflict divorce is in play. It's easy to catastrophize, and catastrophizing can be contagious.

My situation didn't quite play out the way some here suggest. When my ex realized there was a plan in place and some sunlight starting to shine on our family dynamics, he became very reasonable. He didn't become more dangerous, he became less so. Ostensibly for show -- he didn't want to appear crazy -- but he was still reasonable and we made headway that I never thought was possible.

At another point in our divorce, after my ex had a psychotic break with our then S11 in his house, our two lawyers talked me out of filing a PO because they actually cared about our family. They worked out an arrangement that was reasonable, much better than what would've happened if I filed a PO. I had to take a minute and make sure there were provisions in place to help S11 but we did it.

That kind of thing can happen with attorneys but I'm not sure it's their natural instinct when it's a high-conflict situation.

There is more thinking and negotiating and collaborating and problem-solving than you may think with (some) attorneys.

The same attorney who helped walked us back from the PO is also the same attorney who told me the longer I stayed, the more likely I would lose custody because if I knew what was going on, why didn't I protect my child? Meaning, she was capable of giving two kinds of counsel. It's much easier to say the scary thing than to think thoughtfully about how to help you stabilize your situation. You may have to push for that.

This isn't necessarily about staying or not staying, it's looking for ways to bring the temperature down.

People here often say hope for the best, plan for the worst, but I think it's better to plan for the best, and plan for the worst.

You know your wife best. You've talked to these experts about what to do. What would you do if the goal were to stabilize the family and keep everyone safe? Family law is by definition adversarial but it also welcomes problem solving. Maybe there is something possible that would feel less hair raising.

[ForeverDad]

I believe we have the best possible plan. We’ll ask for custody, figure out residence request tomorrow guardian at litem, custody eval and a mental exam and meaningful therapy.

Many courts seem to ignore mental health issues unless it can't be avoided.  You can guess what my court did... they studiously avoided all the signs expecting in time my ex would calm down and act like a normal person.  Didn't happen.

So while you do request meaningful therapy, don't get your hopes up.  Generally courts deal with people as they are and don't try to 'fix' the litigants.  At least a part of your legal and personal expectations should do similarly, deal with her as she is, not as you wish she'd improve.  Around here we call that 'hopium', nice to hope but be realistic and prepared to be disappointed.

I understand that she can’t be my problem.

I am overwhelmed at the possibility of single dadding 2 traumatized kids, getting myself thru this and running my business.

Despite her mental health issues, court will deal with her as an adult.  Just as you're an adult.  Court won't expect you to be her caretaker or caregiver.  There are resources she can choose to access or not.

The children are your #1 priority as well as your own health and life.  You'll have to let the professionals deal with her, they have the training and experience.

Remember the standard airline speech before each flight?  "In the event of an emergency, put on your own oxygen mask first, only then can you properly help others."  Your children need you, so you can't neglect yourself or your own priorities.  Sadly, your spouse can't be a priority.  Let the professionals take over her care.  Take care of yourself and your children who need you.

[AlleyOop23]

Up until now I have chosen not to disclose that I am a lawyer on this board in order to obtain unfiltered advice that doesn't defer to my background. I think that I have benefited from that choice. However to give you a sense of my perspective I am an attorney with over two decades of experience, though the super lawyer into completely unrelated categories of law and with a national and local reputation. I do not litigate now but I have in the past and I manage litigation for clients. I think litigation is a colossal waste of time effort and money. It is also a waste of energy and stress. When it comes to disputes I am no fun for my clients because I am the first to tell my clients to settle quickly and to overpay to end the dispute.

My background in managing lawyers allows me to say with certainty that my current lawyers who as serendipity would have it, have extensive backgrounds in domestic abuse in other contexts, I genuinely looking out for me and my children and are not simply upping the ante to generate fees and prolonged litigation.

If we obtain a PO it will be a multilayered betrayal for my ST BX. Several friend she confided him have offered declarations about her suicidal thoughts. Become apparent to been working with a lawyer and have rented my own place and concealing those facts from her. The PO will have the effect of limiting her access to her children which will crush her identity. The PO will be served on her by a law enforcement officer and if the PO requires her to move the officer will stand there and watch her pack. Even healthy person would never get over such humiliation. I absolutely believe it will cause serious long-term damage to all the relationships in my family and will absolutely create a high conflict family law situation.

I don't want to do it I would love to hear any ideas that would help me avoid it. She does not have a lawyer though I have begged her to get one. So I do not have an avenue to pursue full resolution. She's forcing out of the house with threats of physical assault and false allegations of domestic violence. She hid my belongings to extort my cooperation. She vowed to fight me and limit my ability to see my children and in forcing me out of the house I believe she absolutely knows that it is enhancing her ability to claim that I should have limited parenting time. She has said she will be unreasonable in a divorce and will fight me for the children in order to protect them from me and what she characterizes as my abusive neglect. So what choice to have? She refuses to get more help then she's getting to deal with her suicidal ideation. She just told me that she spent time clutching a bottle of pills and contemplating taking them all while looking at pictures of our children in a desperate attempt to stop herself from doing it.

If I move back into the house she will provoke me or fight me have the please take me away my children will see me led away in handcuffs I will have a no contact order entered against me and I will of course have to endure the stress of waiting for the attack in conflict while attempting to limit my children's exposure. If I stay away on the terms that she's demanded I will in effect be abandoning my children I will lose my ability to see them and more importantly I will lose my ability to influence their lives. I begged her to take back the threats. I offered numerous other solutions with me staying in the house until the end of February in which I would avoid her and spend minimal time in the house. She refused and insisted that I believe, moving out with three hours notice. So what choice do I have?

Please please please if anyone has any ideas as to how to de-escalate this and come up with a solution I would love to hear them immediately because my eyes are wide open about both the effects of doing this and the implications of not doing this.

[AlleyOop23]

Up until now I have chosen not to disclose that I am a lawyer on this board in order to obtain unfiltered advice that doesn't defer to my background. I think that I have benefited from that choice. However to give you a sense of my perspective I am an attorney with over two decades of experience, voted a super lawyer in 2 completely unrelated categories of law and with a national and local reputation. I do not litigate now but I have in the past and I manage litigation for clients. I think litigation is a colossal waste of time effort and money. It is also a waste of energy and stress. When it comes to disputes I am no fun for my clients because I am the first to tell my clients to settle quickly and to overpay to end the dispute.

My background in managing lawyers allows me to say with certainty that my current lawyers who as serendipity would have it, have extensive backgrounds in domestic abuse in other contexts, I genuinely looking out for me and my children and are not simply upping the ante to generate fees and prolonged litigation.

If we obtain a PO it will be a multilayered betrayal for my ST BX. Several friend she confided him have offered declarations about her suicidal thoughts. Become apparent to been working with a lawyer and have rented my own place and concealing those facts from her. The PO will have the effect of limiting her access to her children which will crush her identity. The PO will be served on her by a law enforcement officer and if the PO requires her to move the officer will stand there and watch her pack. Even healthy person would never get over such humiliation. I absolutely believe it will cause serious long-term damage to all the relationships in my family and will absolutely create a high conflict family law situation.

I don't want to do it I would love to hear any ideas that would help me avoid it. She does not have a lawyer though I have begged her to get one. So I do not have an avenue to pursue full resolution. She's forcing out of the house with threats of physical assault and false allegations of domestic violence. She hid my belongings to extort my cooperation. She vowed to fight me and limit my ability to see my children and in forcing me out of the house I believe she absolutely knows that it is enhancing her ability to claim that I should have limited parenting time. She has said she will be unreasonable in a divorce and will fight me for the children in order to protect them from me and what she characterizes as my abusive neglect. So what choice to have? She refuses to get more help then she's getting to deal with her suicidal ideation. She just told me that she spent time clutching a bottle of pills and contemplating taking them all while looking at pictures of our children in a desperate attempt to stop herself from doing it.

If I move back into the house she will provoke me or fight me have the please take me away my children will see me led away in handcuffs I will have a no contact order entered against me and I will of course have to endure the stress of waiting for the attack in conflict while attempting to limit my children's exposure. If I stay away on the terms that she's demanded I will in effect be abandoning my children I will lose my ability to see them and more importantly I will lose my ability to influence their lives. I begged her to take back the threats. I offered numerous other solutions with me staying in the house until the end of February in which I would avoid her and spend minimal time in the house. She refused and insisted that I believe, moving out with three hours notice. So what choice do I have?

Please please please if anyone has any ideas as to how to de-escalate this and come up with a solution I would love to hear them immediately because my eyes are wide open about both the effects of doing this and the implications of not doing this.

[Skip]

We can all see in your words the the discomfort you are feeling right now. We get that. This is a very difficult time. You are facing very difficult decisions.

... maybe we can brainstorm with you what it might look like to dial things down. Your nervous system is probably in BPD stratosphere itself. We can all get a bit BPD when a high-conflict divorce is in play. It's easy to catastrophize, and catastrophizing can be contagious.

How about livednlearned's suggestion? Given the potentially profound implications of the options you are considering, it might be helpful to explore the situation a bit more, here. That is what BPDFamily is for. Maybe we can help you with additional perspective to the perspectives that you are currently considering.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop,

I understand that you feel like you're in a tough spot with no good choices.  That's the nature of this situation.  However sometimes there is some comfort (not the ideal word, but bear with me) in choosing the best option, even if all the options feel like some version of failure or risk or general disappointment.

Qs:
Does your wife have a history of making threats, or is the behavior you've shared in recent days a new escalation?
Does your wife have a history of following through on threats?  Or are the threats a cry for help?

How you answer these questions might change how you feel about taking on the risk of moving back in.  Because if you can live with false threats, you may be able to navigate certain aspects of the separation in a way that benefits you, your kids, and your wife.

I appreciate your comments about litigation and avoiding litigation.  In fact, I basically followed the advice you give your clients to settle my D.  Sample size of one, but this is what I was able to do (forgive me if I've already shared this)...

Like your wife, my uBPDxw threatened/accused me of everything and anything she could think of.  Life under the same roof had become increasingly untenable and if nothing else was not a good model for the kids - it simply wasn't possible to keep everything from them. This was part of what finally gave me the conviction to file... I got to the point where I took her at her word. It sounds like that's about where you are now.

Unlike you, I didn't have the resources to move out, so I didn't even consider that option.  Also, my diligence process had unfolded over the better part of a year and I was repeatedly advised by attorneys and men's advocates (there are a few...) not to move out if I wanted a chance at a 50-50 agreement.

I finally filed. 100% paperwork complete, financial disclosures, everything. No fault, seeking 50-50 parenting time. Sent in via snail mail during the pandemic. I did not tell my wife that I filed because I did not know how she would react, so I decided to wait until the complaint was received and I knew when she would be served.

In the meantime, my wife perceived a change.  At this point, she filed.  She didn't prepare with any diligence and her atty simply sent in an electronic complaint, At fault, seeking primary parent status and majority parenting time. While my complaint sat in a stack of mail - for weeks - my wife's electronic filing was received immediately.

To this day, my uBPDxw has no idea that I filed first, or that I filed at all.  And this proved to be a huge benefit, as it eliminated most of the rejection narrative that PDs often get stuck in - which I feared - and it sounds like this is a big concern for you as well.

I didn't plan any of this, it was just dumb luck - but given that you are an atty and think in terms of strategy, perhaps you can put this to use in some way.

Like my situation, your wife already perceives that the end is approaching.  Can you take the risk to endure some volatility and potential false threats?  If she is motivated to take action, you may be able to both give her agency, and shift at least some responsibility to her.  Again, this was a benefit in my case, because it eliminated my uBPDxw's ability to say things to the kids like: "dad is leaving us" or "dad is trying to take you away from me" - because the D is her choice.

You're prob well aware that the "who files first" thing only conveys benefit if you go to trial, and even then only determine who gets to speak first / speak last.  It's not really a huge advantage, IMO.

It sounds like your wife would likely file like my wife - seeking primary parent status and majority parenting time.  But that will require that she's able to litigate to get there.

In my case, a bit like you, there was a 911 call (two actually).  There was also a section 12 (mental/psych eval), and some things that my uBPDxw would not want to make public (multiple affairs).  So she had some incentive to settle.  Her mother was funding her atty and didn't want to go deep into protracted litigation.  Another lucky break - the rest of her family knows that she's high conflict and didn't want to fund the conflict.  Another lucky break - They also didn't buy into her narrative that I'm an abusive villain...

I'm glad to share more about what happened after my wife filed and I was served, but the short version is:  We cohabitated until stipulations were signed and she moved out.  The stips included agreement re: a "temporary" 50-50 parenting schedule.  And I bet you and your counsel would agree:  the court loves status quo.

As I advised you way back when - my journal showing all those dropoffs and pickups, etc., etc., showed that I was an involved parent. Even if my uBPDxw was, in fact, the primary caregiver in the home - we did not have a binary scenario where she did everything and I did nothing.  Since there was a division of responsiblity, a reasonable court will assume that with reasonable adjustments that both parents will be able to continue to function in a divided household...  that's divorce!

OK, I've written another long post.  I need to work on concise memo format and provide a simple brief...  but I hope this gives you some food for thought re: de-escalation and also strategy to get through this.  I know I had a bunch of lucky breaks - but I'm not an atty.  Given your resources, perhaps you can actually put some of this to use in an actual plan.

If you can slow down this train, please be prepared by recording everything - it really doesn't matter what the law is in your state.  The point is not to create legally admissible evidence, but to undermine false accusations when the LEO rolls up...  I think you've already been advised here, you don't need 2-party consent if your statement is: "I was recording myself, as you can see, I was not shouting or threatening or doing anything abusive during at that time or at any time.  I've had so many false accusations, I've been recording myself to understand what's real and not real." This might help reduce the risk you perceive in regard to her threats, which may or may not be real.  Yes, you need to treat threats like they are real.  Yes, the threats are a form of abuse.  And, yes, you need to figure out how to deal with it.  If your solution is to leave the kids with mom, you're telling the court:  You are 100% ok leaving the kids with mom.

How about the other approach:  You need a PO - So you need to take the kids with you?   If that's not viable for whatever reason, you need to carefully consider if leaving the house is really the right move...

[Skip]

This all happened at the same time I was diagnosed with GAD and ADHD. Once on medication I realized another part of my drive was trying to outrun my fear.

In stressful times like this, we all resort to our basic instincts. You to yours. Your wife to hers. I thought what you wrote (above) was incredible self-awareness. This ability to recenter yourself will be invaluable as you navigate the stages of this life transition. Divorce is emotional Olympics.

I don't know your local court, but my sense of family court is that it is formula. Couples sometimes think the are battling for miles... but in reality they are battling for inches. As you said earlier, you are most likely going to get 60/40%. If the two of you can get along (which may be hard as you didn't do well in the relationship) you could get 50%/50%. Unless, one of you can convince the court that the other is Charles Manson.

But.

You said she is a good mom. People know you are a good dad. The Charles Manson, winner takes all defense/offense is going to be a tough sell. Agree? Maybe? Disagree?

1. Question (not rhetorical) "does a brawl favor her"?  Does calm and respect favor you? What are your thoughts?

2. Second question (not rhetorical), can you handle 100% and is it good for the children? If you had 100% would you need a nanny? Will a judge prefer to see the kids with the nanny or their real mom when you are at work?

3. Third question (not rhetorical), can you handle 50%/50%? Can you two handle 50%/50% as a couple (not be at each others throats with each exchange, or trying to dictate how the other parents?).

4. Last question. Is the Disney dad schedule something you could make work if you have to? Give the kids 100% of your time on your weekends and make awesome memories and then have a block of time in the summer to go on an super adventure?

5. The girls are coming of age in a few years and will ber able to say where they want to stay. After being Disney dad, and after things get tough with mom (as teenagers often do), will they want to stay with you more? Thoughts?

[kells76]

Hey... thanks for the update. We've all walked this before -- we get the stress levels, which can be stratospheric. I know what that heart rate feels like. As you read through Skip's and EyesUp's thoughts, I hope you can notice your breathing and give yourself a little time to calm it down. We'll be here with you through this -- you are not alone. 

We make better decisions when we're coming from a place of being grounded, balanced, and centered. Sometimes, when BPD is involved, we can feel a huge time pressure: "I have to solve this now, I don't have time to think". Often, though, we have more time than it feels like.

I'm with Skip and EyesUp and Livednlearned -- I wonder if you can carve out a little time today to feel grounded, to get back to center, and to find a balanced mindset. Maybe this train won't stop, but we can slow it down and dial down the feelings and intensity so that you have a great place from which to make decisions.

So -- are you at work today? I wonder if there's some time there (lunch break) where you can recall the tools and approaches you've probably worked on with your T, and bring those to bear on your situation? What kinds of things has your T recommended for accepting how you feel and managing those feelings?

I'm preaching to the choir; I hope you don't think I've got it all together (have been working with anxiety for the last couple weeks). If I suggest noticing your breathing, I'd better do that too.

Keep us posted. Check out Skip's questions -- take the long view. Ask me anything; my H has two girls, too, and we're making it through. There are ways to work with your W's priorities/desires/"currency" in mediation that can absolutely deescalate things and move towards a solution where she feels like she "won" but you aren't screwed.

It's great that you have the insight that you want to deescalate. Really good mindset 

 

[ForeverDad]

You said she is a good mom.

On the one hand, I do sense that court is willing to view a person as two personas, or two hats.  In my case, my spouse was arrested for Threat of DV (adult behavior) yet over in domestic court she was assigned the typical mother default of temp full custody and majority time (parenting behavior).

So I was protected for a few months with possession of the home yet only had alternate weekends and a three hour evening in between.  And this continued for over two years until the settlement became official in the final decree.  It didn't make any common sense to me but clearly it made legal sense to the courts.

On the other hand, one goal you may try to reach in court is that her mental health issues impact more than just you, the person seeking a PO (protection order).  My question, How on earth can you say without qualification that she's a "good mother"?  Do the children feel comfortable and safe with both parents, or just one?  Do not her mental health issues at least sometimes negatively impact the kids?  We're not just talking about feeding, clothing and playing.  Parenting is far more than that.

My then-separated spouse tried to file an ex parte TPO and attempted to include our preschooler.  Two weeks later with both parents in court our CPS investigator stood up and stated "CPS has 'no concerns' about ForeverDad."  So our child was removed from her petition.  CPS had no comments about her because my own TPO was in a criminal court which didn't involve itself with children.  That was a failure (or weakness) of the legal system right there, CPS only scrutinized the accused parent, not both.

2. Second question (not rhetorical), can you handle 100% and is it good for the children? If you had 100% would you need a nanny? Will a judge prefer to see the kids with the nanny or their real mom when you are at work?

I was able to use daycare for both before school and after school.

Please please please if anyone has any ideas as to how to de-escalate this and come up with a solution I would love to hear them immediately because my eyes are wide open about both the effects of doing this and the implications of not doing this.

There is likely no way to fully de-escalate the separation and divorce.  Your goal will likely be to accomplish unwinding the marriage with as few triggers and overreactions as possible.  You can expect her to react and overreact.  You can't anticipate every trap and metaphorical land mine.  You just do the best you can, build in as many safeguards in the custody and parenting order.  Something somewhere in the early versions of the court order will fail, that is a given.  But out of the smoke of the chaos and struggle, the order can be adjusted so that vulnerability will be addressed.  Until the next incident.

A refrain I sing - not that I can actually sing - is that you need to get the best (or "least bad") temp order from the start since you may be stuck with it "as is" until the divorce is complete.  That was my experience.  That supposedly temporary order persisted over two years.

As for a "solution"... there is no "one size fits all".  Review how our cases and strategies started, struggled through the years and eventually ended (mostly).

[AlleyOop23]

Skimming answers - I would struggle with 100%. I can make 50/50 work. I think part of that is what makes it work for the kids. Stbx is a micromanager and they need a break.


Predictably stbx went to damsel in distress “I need you” and I’ve said I’m not comfortable staying and a bunch of other things yet here I am sitting in the house. I miss my kids. I’m lonely for them. I don’t want to be married or even keep living here. I can’t have integrity to myself and stay. I’m sitting here and I need to find the strength to tell the kids I’m not staying here tonight and to be alone and I am just staring at the wall and I only got 3 hours sleep and I know that should leave but I’m just sitting here shaming myself for not announcing I e hired a lawyer and rented a place and I’m not coming back for more abuse. I’m not coming back into the marriage. I’ve not given that impression I’ve said I won’t. But she wants me here and I’m using that for my own comfort so  I can be here and I feel like I am letting down my entire support network just by sittting here

[kells76]

You're doing the best you can in the situation you're in. There's no judgment here. I've also been in situations with the kids where there are no great options but I have to choose something. I think you are a compassionate guy; I know you have compassion for others here. Can you have that same compassion for yourself?

Being at home tonight doesn't have to be a "failure". It's one night -- not a referendum on your whole life and strategy.

I think there's a part of you, maybe subconscious, that recognizes this is the "least bad" option. It may be helping you and your W avoid an escalation, which would be bad for the kids. I hope you can honor that part of yourself that is doing the best he can.

Are you able to use any stress/anxiety reduction tools or skills tonight? Talk us through them. What works for you -- breath focus? Left brain stuff? Other?

Let's get through tonight -- no big decisions. See if you get some rest -- tomorrow may be a better time for decision making.

Ok?

 

[AlleyOop23]

I.ended up eating with the family. Stbx is in a relaxed cycle she fell asleep. I watched a movie, the kids laid on me and we goofed around. They both had some frustrations we processed.i beat myself up feeling weak for going over there but i went to see the kids and not out of some hope or false belief that my marriage was somehow salvageable. It wa really fun and really reaffirming as far as my relationships with my kids. After an emotional storm and not seeing them I felt so distant and out of their rhythms which was about me not them. I piggybacked up to bed and waited until they fell asleep and took off.

Also I find that going over there for a few hours doesn’t  make me feel like I can’t take action because I am being intellectually or emotionally dishonest. Like - I was a nice guy so I can’t leave now as if I some how led my stbx on.  It doesn’t change all the the things she’s done and said to me. It doesn’t create repair and I’m not falsely signaling that’s okay. It doesn’t change not saying good morning or I love you for two years.


I made a recording of her berating me and I asked my attorney who has a long background in DV work to listen to it. He said she’s clearly got something going on, and hat he’s listened to a lot and it was orettty bad. And I’m clearly numb to it because most people wouldn’t stay and listen to that for 45 minutes. I said maybe six sentences on it. She calls me some form of worthless repeatedly.  It was the first time anyone’s ever heard that - her at that we are alone in the house level.

That was one awful week. Next week is probably worse.

[Skip]

Hang in there Alley'

A cautionary word...

... you sound motivated, but you do not sound prepared at this point. Please don't be offended by this. I say it to help you and your family. And I say this as someone who has watched "this story" (your story) play out many times in other families.

Let's back up to this again: you sound motivated, but you do not sound prepared.

Maybe the reason you are feel so conflicted is because your plan still needs work. Think about it. If your DVPO succeeded in throwing your wife out of the house and prevented her from seeing her kids even for 14 days there would be pandemonium... the girls would be screaming for their mother and mom would be going to be out of her mind... and you would be racked with guilt. What happens next? Be a chess player. What are the possible moves by the parties (e.g., you, wife, kids, judge, your support team)? We've seen this play out here many times.

Don't feel bad for feeling conflicted right now. It's not the best feeling but its a better place than "screaming babies".    

And now you have time to re-set and re-look your plan.

I would really encourage you to engage the last nine posts above.  

And two general thoughts. The best time to talk to a person with BPD traits is when they are in a relaxed cycle. The more she feels in control (see Eyesup) generally the better.

[AlleyOop23]

After being an abuse victim for so
Long my challenge is to sort out my motivation. Am I doing things from a codependency perspective avoiding conflict? Am I not moving forward because I don’t have her permission? Or am I seeing pretty clearly and filtering advice well like I know I can and applying it to my specific box of chaos but it’s all so understandably emotional that it’s hard to sort?

There’s no answer to any of that except
From me. I can say that after a great night with my kids and a nights sleep I didn’t find myself craving my old familiar life. I wanted instead to get on with my own.

[ForeverDad]

Of course your emotions are surging, it's your family that has you tied up in knots.  It's one thing advising other families on how to address their issues and dilemmas, quite another thing when it's your dysfunctional family at stake.

Though of course it will be hard, imagine that you are advising some else, a client perhaps or a friend or a cousin, how to proceed

In other words, as much as possible, shift from a subjective perspective to an objective one.  Rather than feeling trapped inside a dark box, step outside and picture yourself seeing all the problems as though you're an observer and can tell the person stuck inside how to get through the upcoming trials and tribulations.

So, that said, can you see how seemingly impossible hurdles now can become manageable?  Yes, very horrendous and devastating but manageable.

As an example, you're feeling as though 100% parenting is impossible.  What would you say to encourage that hapless person inside that dark box?

Perhaps you could tell that person to imagine their spouse having to leave for a while for some serious therapy, maybe even hospitalization, to treat something like cancer.  Things like cancer can't be ignored or hidden but need to be properly dealt with.  Could that person take over for a while, doing virtually everything?  Sure.  What if that treatment takes longer, maybe six months?  Could that person take over for a while longer?  Sure.  What if that treatment takes longer, maybe a couple years?  Could that person take over for even that long?  Sure.

In that example, don't you see that the worried parent really can handle even up to 100% care, however long it takes?  Don't look at the mountain before you like Mount Everest, take it bit by bit like a series of short, manageable hikes.

Those are a few illustrations.  Sure, it's not easy - some will tell you that nothing worthwhile is easy - but you can do whatever you need to do.
 

[ForeverDad]

One more thought... maybe you don't have to do 100%.  Maybe mother can handle some level of parenting involvement.  But it's clear she can't be in charge or else nothing will improve.

Does your state allow the reasonably normal parent to have Decision Making or Tie Breaker status if full custody and majority time aren't possible at first?

My court was clearly pro-mother, I had a TPO when she was charged with Threat of DV, yet she went to family court and got a temp order for custody and majority time.  What an upside down world, I had the home while she had our preschooler.

But gradually the order got better.  Exiting the lengthy divorce I moved up to joint custody and equal time.  A few years later I gained full custody.  Another couple years I gained majority time too.  At last after so many years the order was manageable and we didn't go back to court.

Apparently judges prefer to tweak orders and not make drastic fixes?  Which is why it's best to get the "least bad" order from the start, otherwise the struggle to parent is harder and longer.

[AlleyOop23]

I appreciate the tweak order thought. I have been concerned and assumed the temp order will be pro mom and craved in stone.

Right now our draft order has a mediator tie breaker. Illl ask about that given the instability.

I never heard Disney dad before. That’s perfect as a phrase.

My lawyers say things ‘are changing’ in our blue area re dads and parenting. Depends on the judge. I guess I’ll find out the hard way because it won’t be settled initially.

[AlleyOop23]

I am dealing with some major fear obligation and guilt. I should be indignant. My wife has for three years been nothing but blaming shaming and critical. Last week she forced me from my house and from my kids with threats of violence and false accusations to the police. I've told her I don't sleep at the house anymore for this reason.

And yet, I was over that the house last night and my wife pulled me aside and tearfully asked me if part of the reason I wanted divorce was because she had gotten old. She proceeded to tell me that perimenopause had aged her face, she gained weight, and her hair was falling out (she has alopecia and has four years with her hair falling out in small clumps from time to time). Truthfully she has gained a little weight and whether it is sleep or aging or perimenopause, her face does look a little different. She goes on to cry about how nothing is working out and how she feels terrible about herself in her life. Little bit later on she my oldest daughter are carrying on and laughing and laughing and having a great time together.

So as I contemplate starting this divorce by filing for a surprise protective order and having her served by law enforcement I worry about the effect. It will have on her, on our kids, on the divorce process itself, and on any potential positive relationship will have when the divorce is over.

I am not waffling on divorcing her but I can't seem to get started and I can't seem to bring myself to tell my kids (because now she won't tell them with me). I keep thinking through how horrible the protective order and service by law enforcement officer will be for her and for my kids.

[AlleyOop23]

And I know if I sat down to talk to her about a reasonable parenting plan she’d be right back as I he angry blaming rageful person.

[kells76]

Hey AlleyOop, good to see you back here. Hope you have something relaxing to look forward to today.

I want to check if I'm tracking with your concern:

Is your concern that the only way to initiate your divorce at this time is through the surprise PO?

Let me know if I'm off base. Just asking to make sure we're on the same page (or if I'm not, so I can get there).

[AlleyOop23]

At this point the other options are to move out and file at which point the court makes me Disney dad. Or move back in and start knowing that now she’s capable of this. She’ll cycle back to that while I’m living there.

I am tempted to try to lay it out to her and ask her to cooperate. Let’s plan this while I live there.

But at that point if things get bad and I decide to try for a PO it risks looking like I’m using it as a tool, that I’m not really concerned about it as it happened before and I didn’t do anything


Separaately I wrote and didn’t yet post this additional piece which I hadn’t yet posted when you replied. Not responding to what you wrote

I think part of it was that for a space the woman I fell in love with was back flattering me with her vulnerabilities and sharing a laugh and I used to lean into the appearances thinking here, this is my marriage. It’s back. Now I know it’s just part of a horrible worsening cycle and I can’t  lean back into it and escape the bad stuff and Just delude myself it will get better and that I have some control over that. And I’m for a moment feeling that I’m going through this too. I’m on my way to pick up my kid from a sleepover and had to pull over to  cry.

[ForeverDad]

So as I contemplate starting this divorce by filing for a surprise protective order and having her served by law enforcement I worry about the effect. It will have on her, on our kids, on the divorce process itself, and on any potential positive relationship will have when the divorce is over.

Frankly, no matter how finely you try to tune a least bad scenario, it still will be a cluster doom.  There's no easy way, just try your best to avoid obvious missteps and common traps, and proceed.  (Such advice is detailed in William Eddy's SPLITTING handbook.)

But at that point if things get bad and I decide to try for a PO it risks looking like I’m using it as a tool, that I’m not really concerned about it as it happened before and I didn’t do anything.

Be prepared for that question, "Why didn't you do anything before?"

Admit that you didn't know how to respond at that time.*  Sometimes a simple answer is best.  (You're not a mental health expert, hey, admit you're not even an expert in family law.  Apparently you're an expert in other fields of legal fields but the point is that you're untrained, even somewhat clueless, in family law and how to assess/resolve family dysfunction.)

I repeat, it's okay to admit you were in over your depth dealing with such extreme levels of chaos, acting out and dysfunctional actions, reactions and overreactions.  But now you're doing catch-up and doing your best to set things straight.

* The professionals should not expect you to be as trained as they are, with degrees and specialties and whatnot.  I so much wanted to explain to my professionals that I eventually suspected a hurtful personality disorder had developed yet no one listened to me.  (1) I was not seen as an expert and therefore they ignored what I had to contribute.  After all, I had only lived with her for 10-15 years so what could I know?  (2) They weren't there to fix her, they just had to get us through the divorce so that marriage was unwound and basic order issued.

[livednlearned]

I think it’s really important to break down why you think she showed this tender/vulnerable side. Try to depersonalize. What happened that might be different? Brainstorm, there is a thread here worth pulling.

What is the tenor in the home like right now? What are you like? What is she like?

[AlleyOop23]

She is calmer. She is desperately trying to not be abandoned. I  staying to the edges and not sleeping there.

She doesn’t really want to divorce. She wants me to be different and she wants to feel different.


She texts me all day about the constant pain she’s in.i know that I could fulfill the pattern by leaning in and being tender. That’s always been the contract.

I’m Feeling oppressive FOG. mostly OG. I’m also so angry. We
Got all the way up to let’s discuss how and when to tell the kids (_after she kicked me out). Now I feel terrible for unleashing a protective order on her. But how’s that even possible? Prepping the motion with my lawyers I’m Detailing physical abuse and awful shaming things she’s written to me - how can I feel bad for her? What the hell is wrong with me? A healthy person would both have this much to write they would have out a stop to to it way or the other.


I’m taking care of everyone else in my head and worrying about her and on and on.

I’m hopeful we can tweak the relief being sought so she can see the kids.

I know she will think that I’ve been orchestrating this and by being the house with the kids it’s completely disingenuous. But when I read the texts and descriptions of what happened I think I’m doing what a responsible
Person would do.

[AlleyOop23]

My wife is preparing my younger daughter for her trip to NY in 3 weeks for model UN. She is so excited and they are picking out clothes so she looks “professional.” She showed me how she looked in the jacket and worked through a little anxiety with me about maybe being overdressed.  Same kid has a new type of dance class Thursday night. She’s been looking for a dance class that she can fit into her schedule that is different from ballet. The class is only 3 kids, it just came up. That would give her a second dance at the recital this spring, and one with only two others onstage. When I picked her up from dance last week she was vibrating with excitement having learned about it.
 
My older daughter has someone’s else’s bat mitzvah this weekend. She can’t wait to get dressed up and feel ‘put together.’  She’s growing up so fast.
 
I keep looking at the schedule. I am thinking to myself when can I tell the kids what’s going on?  When (rhetorically), if ever, is there a “best” time to tell the kids the police have forcibly removed their mother? And to have her separate?
 
When I think it through, the choices are obviously don’t get divorced which we can set aside completely I am writing it only so it needn’t be pointed out.
 
The other choice is to discard the PO and move back in while telling her I am filing for divorce.  When she learns that I have rented a place that does not have the characteristics I was charged with adhering to, that I’ve been working with attorneys and not telling her, that I want 50/50, I can only assume she will go right back to angry, as she was JUST A FEW DAYS AGO. But right now, I know from my exposure to the cycle that I’m safe for the time being.
 
I am struggling, Internally, I am bargaining. I want to tell her all this and try to start a normal divorce and if she wont’ do it then I believe I’ll have balmed my conscience. And I don’t really believe she’ll agree. She’s told me over and over she’ll fight me on custody. And I believe that when she gets a lawyer I am going to get strafed with whatever they can cook up because regardless of how I do this she will be angry.
 
It will only be days before I am once again muttering to myself “I HAVE to get out of this marriage.”  I realize I cannot convince her of my perspective and that it is hopeless to even consider.  She will consider me the villain there will be a mess.
 
The idea that she will not be there to say goodbye to her kids, that she is just ushered out that’s that, is something I am really struggling to come to terms with. The fact that she doesn’t have an obvious place to land with a supportive person, that’s troubling me. Supporters telling me how angry I should be, how this is necessary for my kids and their future and my mental health isn’t working to help me, I just feel guilty and awful.

[kells76]

This is the hardest stuff.

I hear you wanting to do right by your girls.

Am I tracking with you that while the paperwork for the PO is "filled out and ready", it has not yet been "submitted"?

...

A few thoughts:

I keep looking at the schedule. I am thinking to myself when can I tell the kids what’s going on?  When (rhetorically), if ever, is there a “best” time to tell the kids the police have forcibly removed their mother? And to have her separate?

How much do you think the kids already know/suspect? They have probably heard the fighting?

When I think it through, the choices are obviously don’t get divorced which we can set aside completely I am writing it only so it needn’t be pointed out.
 
The other choice is to discard the PO and move back in while telling her I am filing for divorce.  When she learns that I have rented a place that does not have the characteristics I was charged with adhering to, that I’ve been working with attorneys and not telling her, that I want 50/50, I can only assume she will go right back to angry, as she was JUST A FEW DAYS AGO. But right now, I know from my exposure to the cycle that I’m safe for the time being.

So you're thinking there are 3 choices right now, correct?

-Proceed with the PO
-Don't get divorced
-Don't proceed with PO, move back in, but do proceed with divorce, and she will be angry

Are you up for working with the group here to find a different path forward? There may be ways to mitigate the fallout on your kids without feeling like extremes are the only options.

It would take grounding and stability on your part -- not saying it will feel easy -- but I think you believe your kids are worth it.

It's connected to what Livednlearned asked the other day:

I think it’s really important to break down why you think she showed this tender/vulnerable side. Try to depersonalize. What happened that might be different? Brainstorm, there is a thread here worth pulling.

What is the tenor in the home like right now? What are you like? What is she like?

How can we leverage knowledge of her BPD needs and cycles to help her feel like you are an ally trying to get her what she wants?

...

I think you are wise to look out at your life and your kids' lives and to recognize that while there's never a "perfect" time to divorce, there may be worse times to escalate. It could be that you sense that tapping the brakes for a moment is what this situation needs, and because your W can't/won't tap the brakes, it's up to you to take the lead and slow things down for the moment, not forever. This doesn't mean "don't ever divorce" -- it's more like what Skip mentioned:

Let's back up to this again: you sound motivated, but you do not sound prepared.

Maybe the reason you are feel so conflicted is because your plan still needs work. Think about it. If your DVPO succeeded in throwing your wife out of the house and prevented her from seeing her kids even for 14 days there would be pandemonium... the girls would be screaming for their mother and mom would be going to be out of her mind... and you would be racked with guilt. What happens next? Be a chess player. What are the possible moves by the parties (e.g., you, wife, kids, judge, your support team)? We've seen this play out here many times.

Don't feel bad for feeling conflicted right now. It's not the best feeling but its a better place than "screaming babies".   

And now you have time to re-set and re-look your plan.

I would really encourage you to engage the last nine posts above. 

And two general thoughts. The best time to talk to a person with BPD traits is when they are in a relaxed cycle. The more she feels in control (see Eyesup) generally the better.

I'll pause there for now so it isn't too long.

Really glad to see you coming back here for support.

[zachira]

Of course you feel guilty and awful because for years your wife has dumped her overwhelming feelings onto you and made everything your fault. The challenge is to separate your feelings from hers, allow her to take responsibility for how she feels inside while owning what you feel deep down inside. As you become healthier and more of a separate person from your wife, you will start to feel better little by little. The best piece of advice my therapist ever gave me was when in the presence of a disordered person to focus on how I was feeling inside instead of observing and taking on the feelings of the disordered person. You are absolutely right that your wife is unlikely to change or take any responsibility for her behaviors. This does not make you responsible for her choices and disordered behaviors even though it is extremely painful to watch her self destructive behaviors, especially because she is the mother of your children and you once loved her enough to marry her. Keep expressing your concerns and talking actions like you are doing now, and with time, lots of time, you will feel better and be in a better place.

[AlleyOop23]

One thing is true - I am getting divorced and I cannot take it anymore. I just can’t. We could call it separation if that eases her feelings around the public appearance however that is to lie to my kids and give them the false hope this will be mended.

I do not want to be Neville chamberlain ANYMORE.

I just want to “win the peace” if I can after this is all over

[Skip]

When I think it through, the choices are obviously don’t get divorced which we can set aside completely I am writing it only so it needn’t be pointed out.

Nobody suggested that you "don't get divorced". Saying that is not appropriate here. Members are trying to center you so that you have the best chance of getting to your objective which is:

• to end your irreconcilable marriage,

• amicably and constructively co-parent (especially in the near <7 year), and
• minimize the damage the children in the process.

As you have said, only 20% of fathers get 50/50 and in most of those cases, the wife agrees to it. And as we have pointed out, the flip side is that judges are reluctant to hand out 50/50% when the parents are at each others throats or exaggerating that the other parent is a danger to the children.

The court wants peace and stability for the children. For example, parenting in place (as your wife pointed this out), is something they generally like.

Checking the boxes is important in family court.

The other choice is to discard the PO and move back in while telling her I am filing for divorce.  

These are not your only two choices. You've convinced yourself that they are.

The judge likely knows that false or exaggerated claims of domestic violence and child abuse are rampant in custody disputes. They are aware of the studies.

You have options.

Supporters telling me how angry I should be, how this is necessary for my kids and their future and my mental health isn’t working to help me, I just feel guilty and awful.

How often do you tell your clients who are in a difficult legal situation, to embrace the anger? To feel the unfairness? To stand up for what right. Seek justice for the wrongs. Embrace the emotion.

That doesn't sound like a winning mindset for family court.

Our advice is embrace your resolve (not anger) and stay totally focused on the final outcome (not the process). Let the judge see that you are the adult in the room.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop,

These are impossible choices, with uncertain outcomes - but I have to agree with others' comments - you do have other choices...

In my case, we filed in March, cohabitated until the end of August, and the divorce was finalized the following Feb - almost a full year after the initial filing.

From March to August was fraught - I was constantly anxious about a false DV or some other escalation, but I paid my atty to backchannel with my uBPDxw's atty, which helped to establish  "reality" vs. every little thing that would set off my then-stbx (aligns with your pay more to avoid litigation advice...).   We agreed from the start to prioritize the kids' wellbeing, and my uBPDxw largely kept her agreement.  She was out of the house as much as possible - great!  More time with the kids for me.

With your current situation, I wonder if it's possible to slow things down just a bit?

The key for me was:  The separation was aligned with stipulations.  The stipulations included a schedule.  That schedule became status quo, and was eventually incorporated in the final agreement/decree. 

If there's a chance to get stips signed in the coming weeks or months with a 50-50 schedule (if that's what you want), your stbx would be hard pressed to explain to a judge what change of circumstances occurred thereafter that would necessitate a different final agreement...

If you separate now before you've formally agreed/stipulated to anything, you are heading into a dispute... custody will be tough to win since you moved out. And also tough to grant if you have a PO...   

On the other hand, if you can find a way to slow this process down just a bit, you may be able to agree to some stipulations / temporary orders sooner rather than later that project to a more favorable final outcome, vs. the other all-or-nothing scenarios you've described. 

It sounds like you're doing a sort of low-residency cohab at the moment in which you haven't formally separated / moved out...  how long do you think you and/or your wife can keep that going?   

[AlleyOop23]

I was not suggesting anyone here had said to not get divorced. I’ve just had that tossed at me a few times outside this board “well you can always just not get divorced and continue to put up with this” and I just had to get it out of the way because I couldn’t hear it again from any source. But that’s about me not anyone else.

These are good thoughts all of them. I don’t think I can slow it down. It’s true I think I have only those two choices in reality. I have 3 times asked my wife and 1 of those begging, to please hire or just go see a lawyer. If she had a lawyer the back channel would be amazing as an option.

Thanks I will re read. It’s funny as I was going back I found an earlier post of mine so somilar to my earlier post it’s kind of eeirw

[ForeverDad]

Most of the professionals I met in my divorce were studiously neutral.  Despite my ex behaving in extreme ways, they acted like it was just another day at work after which they would go home to their own homes.  Yet for me it was my life, my family facing a volcanic eruption.

We were ordered to attempt mediation.  Um, didn't go well.  Afterward, she insisted that I stay behind as she left, still posing as though I was dangerous.  The mediator commented, "This woman has issues."

We then had sessions with the court's parenting investigator.  She stated counselors didn't have licensing authority to recommend custody details and so recommended a Custody Evaluation next.

A CE is more in-depth than a basic psych eval which only assesses the single individual and not the relationships.  The Custody Evaluator can make or break a case, there is that much riding on the process.  Some evaluators are minimally trained and experienced.  Fortunately my lawyer chose a child psychologist who was fully trusted by the court.

This is a quote in this recent post where I cited from my custody evaluator's initial report.  You can follow the link and read the entire post.

I recall how my Custody Evaluator summed up our evaluation... "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can... If Shared Parenting is attempted and fails, then father should have custody."  My CE saw ability (or willingness) to share as very important.

Let me make clear:  I was the parent proposing solutions for parenting to succeed while my ex was obstructing, sabotaging, making emotional unsubstantiated allegations, etc.  She was determined to block me without basis.  Your case, as was mine, is different because your need to parent and provide balanced care for the children does have basis.

No matter what you do, however much you try to soften the method of change, your ex (like many described here) can be expected to flame out.  There's little you can do to appease that overreaction, well, not unless you wimp out on standing up for a good (or less bad) outcome for the children. 

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks forever dad. I think this pretty much sums it up and I keep wishing and trying to believe it doesn’t have to be like that. But I think this quote from you sums up lots or great advice I’ve gotten.

No matter what you do, however much you try to soften the method of change, your ex (like many described here) can be expected to flame out.  There's little you can do to appease that overreaction, well, not unless you wimp out on standing up for a good (or less bad) outcome for the children. 
[/quote]

[AlleyOop23]

She is now begging me not to divorce her. And I’m so angry she’s doing this. Insisting I move out then kicking me out. Now she wants me to understand her perimenopause made her do it.

[zondolit]

Most of the professionals I met in my divorce were studiously neutral.  Despite my ex behaving in extreme ways, they acted like it was just another day at work after which they would go home to their own homes.  Yet for me it was my life, my family facing a volcanic eruption.

Thanks for saying this, ForeverDad! It is what I experience in my divorce, and it is especially difficult because it echoes the gaslighting I experienced in my marriage. I begin to question myself: if everyone is acting like my STBx spouse is normal then am I the one off my rocker. . .? And yet when I outright asked my lawyer, "Is this normal--this divorce process, his behavior?" she pulls her hair out and says "NO! Not at all!!!! It makes me so ANGRY!"

[livednlearned]

She is calmer. She is desperately trying to not be abandoned. I  staying to the edges and not sleeping there.

She doesn’t really want to divorce. She wants me to be different and she wants to feel different.

She is now begging me not to divorce her. And I’m so angry she’s doing this. Insisting I move out then kicking me out. Now she wants me to understand her perimenopause made her do it.

I wonder if "staying to the edges" is triggering this tender cycle because it mimics confidence.

Underneath aggressive behavior is fear. Some of that fear is fueled by feeling out of control. If she can control people around her, that's scary -- she's out of control and no one is containing the chaos, and she knows this.  

This is worth looking at: You move to the edges and she takes a step toward you.

Someone (you) is providing a boundary, even if it's a scary one (divorce).

It's two sides of the same extreme -- I'm not saying don't divorce, I'm saying that something is either real or mimicked confidence and this might be why she is responding the way she is.

My current H has a BPD x wife. She was having an affair and alienating the kids and abusing H.

Then she swung toward tender cycle. In part because their middle child had a psychotic break in high school. H (physician) stepped in and managed the crisis (confident, centered) and BPDx wife followed his lead.

I'm giving an example. There are other ways confident, calm, centered approach can keep things steady even in a crisis like divorce.

Not saying it's easy to get there when you're flooded. Or feeling like your entire nervous system is jacked up to 11.

Is there anything left in the tank for this?

[AlleyOop23]

Well said. This articulates something I’ve been feeling. I have been working hard on my own stuff and I got to a point where I feel just done. I think my heart is closed. So the fear of losing the relationship that governed me is gone. And instead I’m just insisting and enforcing limits. I’m not going about it in a kamikaze fashion but for example I’ve said over and over you need to ack olwedge and address kicking me out with threats. And I’m not letting it go. Regardless of the outcome of just feels good to know what I need and insist on it. The feeling is a little exhilarating

I suspect if I’d been able to do this years ago the marriage would either be an incredible success or more likely would have ended a long time ago. I can’t regret two
Amazing kids but I do regret time spent in fear.

[livednlearned]

The question is how to channel that into what's next.

It's calmer now because you are there, expressing confidence/boundaries.

How to keep that and move to the next phase, that's a bigger brainstorm.

What do you think about EyesUp's suggestion to create the kind of schedule/arrangement while cohabitating? From what you've shared, your wife seems to be willing to work with you.

Does it seem that way to you?

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks all. I wasn’t optimistic and she laid into me about my lack of follow through. Over the prior two hours she made a put down joke about my arm size (they’re fine) and called me by my mother’s name, and I’ve actually thrown down over that. She doesn’t want to work on anything. She wants it to stay the same. She’s not going to address anger management or kicking me out of the house. She wants things to stay the same and said she wasn’t going to have me do some power play thing where she doesn’t get mad and if I stop making mistakes then she’ll stop getting mad. But I still feel obligation and guilt. She’s begged me not to leave. She says she’s in such a bad place mentally and emotionally. She can’t take it. I know I can’t educate her about how to treat me anymore (it wasn’t always like this).

So right here, is my hang up:

I keep feeling compelled to explain this break up, this end in a way she’ll accept. Maybe I’m looking subconsciously for permission to leave? I want my guilt absolved? But I keep thinking I need to tell her in a way she’ll understand and think “okay his conclusion about ending it makes sense and I can understand WHY he’s done.”  I feel the need to explain to her that when she barks at me about how I’m not tracking on something or other of the kids, even if I am wrong or making a mistake, I’m just done with her handling it like I’m a misbehaving child and delivering a lecture while the room gets awkward and my kids hope she doesn’t blow up.

So, please help me BPD family with advice about this block. Because my intellectual mind knows this just isn’t possible. It is not a realistic possibility.

[zachira]

For most men, being verbally abused by a woman, is the equivalent of what it is like for a woman to be physically abused by a man. The cruel words hurt and they can make a man stay stuck, unable to stand up for himself, because he feels so wounded. My advice would be to set a boundary that you will not tolerate any kind of verbal abuse by your wife, which would mean once she starts you walk away even if it means getting out of the house for a few hours.

[AlleyOop23]

I have tried setting boundaries. Here I am beyond that. I am done but trying to over come the FoG that arrives when she switches to ‘please don’t go im struggling’ - I’m done just figuring how to convince the no rational part of my brain to leave. ’

[zachira]

Little steps are big steps. It is the all or nothing thinking trying to be perfect that keeps most of us stuck and we have all been there. You can start with small boundaries knowing you will not follow through all the time. It can be like trying to improve your diet. Maybe one day of the week you eat well, and the rest of the week you eat poorly, yet that one day can be increased to more days if you give yourself credit for that small success instead of beating yourself up over the six days you ate poorly.

[Skip]

I keep feeling compelled to explain this break up, this end in a way she’ll accept. Maybe I’m looking subconsciously for permission to leave? I want my guilt absolved? But I keep thinking I need to tell her in a way she’ll understand and think “okay his conclusion about ending it makes sense and I can understand WHY he’s done.”  I feel the need to explain to her that when she barks at me about how I’m not tracking on something or other of the kids, even if I am wrong or making a mistake, I’m just done with her handling it like I’m a misbehaving child and delivering a lecture while the room gets awkward and my kids hope she doesn’t blow up.

Are you looking for redemption? Do you want her to see things the way you see them? That she has treated you unfairly and that you didn't deserve to be treated the way you were treated in the last 2 years? That you have no choice but to divorce?

I don't think this happens in divorces or breakups.

In reading your posts, I do get the feeling this is high on your needs right now. And you are seeking it outside the marriage (triangulation with supporters) and now hoping she will see what they see?

This is the danger of triangulation - it tends to polarize the parties abd move them further from resolve.

You don't get the other parties blessing. Divorce doesn't resolve or end the conflict - it just creates distance from it. Often divorce exacerbates it. High conflict divorce can run it off the meter.

You couldn't resolve these things in the marriage, you are not going to resolve then in the break up and post beak up.

This is the business of divorce.

I know you have been trying to channel your anger to help push you forward and gravitating to others that validate that. Be careful. This is how divorces heated up.

I suggested earlier that anger is not to helpful (its fleeting) and that you focus on your resolve and the ultimate outcomes.

If resolve and the ultimate outcomes is your guiding light, you will realize that there is much value in not inflaming your wife or getting caught up in meaningless fault finding or any drama of any type. She will say hurtful things and push buttons, that's to be expected. Man up, brush it off. You will be inclined to do the same. Don't.

In terms of ultimate outcomes, your kids are very vulnerable to getting very hurt and angry at you in this divorce as you are the perpetrator - and especially if you do aggressive things that your wife can leverage against you with them. Watch it.

Divorce is awful. All divorce. It's devastating. You are going to be hurt. This is the nature of the beast. Stay focused on the outcomes. Minimize the collateral damage.

Think about this. You are wanting her support at some level and yet you are planning to have the police remove her from her home and her children with no warning. She will be out of the house with a quickly packed bag and trying to figure out where to sleep that night. You are not looking out for her, either.

As for outcomes, this is the most important thing about right now. Id the DVPO in your best interest. If you chose the DVPO, are you going to tell those little girls that their mom is so dangerous that she had to be removed for everyone's safety? How will they react to that? Is she going to tell them that you are so mean that you told the police that their mother would hurt them and to kick her out with no place to sleep? How will they react to that?



 

[AlleyOop23]

My lawyers, at my urging came up with a different solution that isn’t so, well, punitive feeling. I feel much better about it.

Thanks again this is a clarifying post. I spent a lot of time need validation of my own reality having been gaslit and brainwashed.

The biggest part now is to step into my own perspective. See my own way. Thank you. That helps.

[Skip]

My lawyers, at my urging came up with a different solution that isn’t so, well, punitive feeling. I feel much better about it.

Can you share? We are all here to learn. 

[AlleyOop23]

Of course when the whole thing started her attitude was, in a nutshell, that I would have to risk conflict to see my kids, conflict that might rise to the level of requiring police intervention and/or might traumatize my kids. That concern dissipated. I regained access to my kids.

This allowed time to finish prepping to dissolution case.

The things around the dvpo that made me uncomfortable were service by law enforcement, escort from the home and then supervised visits with the kids. The problem I had with it was that while there are issues with the kids I cannot and would not swear that I believed my kids’ safety was at risk. And the dcpo filters through the case and restricts my wife in ways I don’t think are necessary or fair and deprives my kids of their mother at a time when I believe they need reassurance. It’s harsh and I think eliminates future collaboration. Also it has this flaw in that my wife doesn’t really have a pace to go.


So the solution became filing the dissolution and asking for a restraining order. The dvpo is a separate proceeding. The restraining order is part of rhe dissolution. I do believe I need the restraining order but my FAMILY does not need the dvpo.

Because the restraining order is part of the larger case and not its own separate creature it can be more flexible both at its inception and over time. I don’t have to drop it off at the kids schools. It can call for days for each of us on and out of the house. Because it doesn’t involve the kids we may for example  choose to make her time away from the house start the next days and not ‘hi I’m officer friendly pack up some stuff and I’ll watch you Leave you have 20minutes’

The reality is I need a few days of non chaos in the home with my kids to get part of their lives packed up and over to my new place and I need a few days to furnish the new house.



It also better manages my wife’s ego and doesn’t say ‘domestic violence’. It may yet be an ugly high conflict divorce but this to me lessens that possibility slightly. The solution can be adjusted to the problem.

And in the end even if everything goes poorly I know I did my best to avoid it.

[Skip]

The biggest part now is to step into my own perspective. See my own way. Thank you. That helps.

 

Because the restraining order is part of the larger case and not its own separate creature it can be more flexible both at its inception and over time.

This makes more sense.

One thing I would suggest is leaving a channel of communication open with her. Cutting all lines of communication creates a lot of angst. One possibility is to use  ourfamilywizard.com This has the added benefit of creating a records of time spent with the kids and communications with the spouse and these records can be used in many courts.

And in the end even if everything goes poorly I know I did my best to avoid it.

There will be many more challenging times...

I would encourage you to open a discussion on how to tell the kids and how to introduce them to the new house. We have many members with a experience in this and hard learned lessons.

[AlleyOop23]

Great suggestion. Thank you!

[ForeverDad]

I have tried setting boundaries. Here I am beyond that. I am done but trying to over come the FOG that arrives when she switches to 'please don’t go I'm struggling' - I'm done just figuring how to convince the no rational part of my brain to leave.

She doesn't want you to go yet refuses to behave so that you won't leave.  This is a lose-lose scenario for you.  (Familiar with the Kobayashi Maru?  It is is a training exercise in the Star Trek franchise designed to test the character of Starfleet Academy cadets by placing them in a no-win scenario.)  "She can't have her cake and eat it too" is the saying I recall.

I too faced this as the End of my marriage approached, and so many others here too.  It was a final blow-out Extinction Burst like none before.  Good thing it didn't intimidate me into backpedaling (retreating) into my prior appeasing patterns that hadn't worked anyway, or the abuse cycles would have continued even longer.

Are you looking for redemption? Do you want her to see things the way you see them? That she has treated you unfairly and that you didn't deserve to be treated the way you were treated in the last 2 years? That you have no choice but to divorce?

I don't think this happens in divorces or breakups.

There's no easy way to say this.  The time for appeasing is long past.  Nothing you could possibly say (JADE = Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) will impact her self-oriented perceptions.  When things are this bad the only viable option is to separate/divorce, seeking the best (least bad) custody and parenting temp order possible.  Don't look back - that would be sabotaging yourself - focus on the future.

Sadly, "Batten down the hatches and full speed ahead."

As for outcomes, this is the most important thing about right now. Id the DVPO in your best interest. If you chose the DVPO, are you going to tell those little girls that their mom is so dangerous that she had to be removed for everyone's safety? How will they react to that? Is she going to tell them that you are so mean that you told the police that their mother would hurt them and to kick her out with no place to sleep? How will they react to that?

DVPO ... This is to to protect YOU from risk of DV.  Yes, you can also include the children in your petition.  (If you're at risk then certainly the children could be at risk too.)  If stbEx is not present when the petition is filed, then it will be considered ex parte and court would schedule a follow up hearing a week or two later where both parents could be present.  Meanwhile, the court would then task children's services to determine the extent of risk to the children and then report the results of their investigation at the hearing.

That's how it works in my area.  The CPS investigator stood up at the subsequent hearing and stated they had "no concerns" about me.  Court dropped "protections" for our preschooler that she had requested.  Unfortunately at that time she had accused me in family court so only I was investigated.  My protection order was from a separate court that did not deal with minors.

Warning, Will Robinson... Do not say in court that their mother is a "good" mother. Sure, maybe she feeds and clothes them but her negative impact on the overall home environment is devastating.

Frankly, if it has to be done, then it has to be done.  Don't fret overmuch about explaining it to your children.  When my ex was gone this is what happened:

I'll tell the story how my son reacted when my ex was out of the house.  (Police had come and I ended up with a temp protection order and possession of the home.)  He was a little over 3.5 years old.

Well she came by with a police escort to get some of her things last night after she got out... .  She also came by today with a police escort to check on our son... .  It seems like she is staying away for now though, which is good.  The kids never ask about her at all.  I was terrified that she was gong to try to move back in... .  It has been so nice having some peace and quiet at home, its been along time since I could sit down and relax without being screamed at.

That's exactly what happened to me.  When the police took away my then-spouse, we had about 6 days before she popped back in our lives.  Her absence was palpable.  The silence was deafening!   My preschooler awoke during the first couple nights and asked where she was and then went right back to sleep.  Never asked again.  After a few days we were making cookies and I mentioned her, thinking to be "fair"* but he refused to talk about her, pulled me back into mixing the batter.  Of course, when she popped back into our lives, she kept saying how much he missed her.

* Beware of our natural inclination to be too fair - it is an otherwise wonderful quality but in our overwhelming PD cases our Nice Guy sense of fairness risks being self-sabotaging, enabling the ex to sabotage us.

[livednlearned]

Restraining orders can be written in different ways.

Are you thinking the PO will go both ways? You mention her ego.

What might be the stipulations be?

[Cat Familiar]

Rather than speculate about the details of your soon-to-be-ending marriage and divorce proceedings—others have offered excellent suggestions—I want to address your emotional state and desire for understanding by your wife.

From what you’ve shared about your wife, I’d give the odds that she’d have an epiphany and would come to an empathetic understanding of how her behavior has impacted you negatively over the years—at about 0%.

That you continue to hope for some level of understanding from her is likely to cause you angst in perpetuity. I do empathize with you as I’ve dealt with this issue myself more than once. The logical side of our brains continues to believe that with a through enough explanation, which may take many opportunities to occur, that our BPD partners will eventually come to understand how well meaning we’ve been and how hard we’ve tried to support and please them, and conversely how poorly they’ve treated us, in spite of how kind we’ve been to them.

What I’ve learned is: IT AIN’T NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.

Instead, I’ve come to embrace my dark side and realize that my motives have not always been pure; I’ve fallen short in my efforts to be a good partner; I’ve not seen my partner’s needs appropriately and tried to accommodate them to the best of my abilities…and…all that is OK. I’ve done the best I could at the time, and I’ve learned how I could have done better. And they’ve done the best they were capable of, but at this point, that’s not good enough for me.

I’m OK with them painting me as the one at fault, the negative influence, the *bad guy*. After all, I know by now that nothing I say or do will change their mind about me. They will think what they think, and that can change from minute to minute.

Letting go of my attachment to their positive regard frees me up mentally and emotionally to be the best version of myself in the moment.

[Skip]

Are you thinking the PO will go both ways? You mention her ego.

This is a good way to shame out of it. 

[zachira]

It may be hard to imagine this right now that there are many high conflict couples who have custody orders that make it so that the divorced or getting divorced parents barely interact and the custody arrangements are set in stone. These types of successful custody arrangements often work well until the children age out of the system. You might want to explore with your lawyer getting this type of custody order now before you get divorced. Others on this site can likely explain better how this works.