Divorce Strategy Advice, Experts, Lawyers, Custody

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

One thing is true - I am getting divorced and I cannot take it anymore. I just can’t. We could call it separation if that eases her feelings around the public appearance however that is to lie to my kids and give them the false hope this will be mended.

I do not want to be Neville chamberlain ANYMORE.

I just want to “win the peace” if I can after this is all over

[AlleyOop23]

One thing is true - I am getting divorced and I cannot take it anymore. I just can’t. We could call it separation if that eases her feelings around the public appearance however that is to lie to my kids and give them the false hope this will be mended.

I do not want to be Neville chamberlain ANYMORE.

I just want to “win the peace” if I can after this is all over

[Skip]

When I think it through, the choices are obviously don’t get divorced which we can set aside completely I am writing it only so it needn’t be pointed out.

Nobody suggested that you "don't get divorced". Saying that is not appropriate here. Members are trying to center you so that you have the best chance of getting to your objective which is:

• to end your irreconcilable marriage,

• amicably and constructively co-parent (especially in the near <7 year), and
• minimize the damage the children in the process.

As you have said, only 20% of fathers get 50/50 and in most of those cases, the wife agrees to it. And as we have pointed out, the flip side is that judges are reluctant to hand out 50/50% when the parents are at each others throats or exaggerating that the other parent is a danger to the children.

The court wants peace and stability for the children. For example, parenting in place (as your wife pointed this out), is something they generally like.

Checking the boxes is important in family court.

The other choice is to discard the PO and move back in while telling her I am filing for divorce.  

These are not your only two choices. You've convinced yourself that they are.

The judge likely knows that false or exaggerated claims of domestic violence and child abuse are rampant in custody disputes. They are aware of the studies.

You have options.

Supporters telling me how angry I should be, how this is necessary for my kids and their future and my mental health isn’t working to help me, I just feel guilty and awful.

How often do you tell your clients who are in a difficult legal situation, to embrace the anger? To feel the unfairness? To stand up for what right. Seek justice for the wrongs. Embrace the emotion.

That doesn't sound like a winning mindset for family court.

Our advice is embrace your resolve (not anger) and stay totally focused on the final outcome (not the process). Let the judge see that you are the adult in the room.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop,

These are impossible choices, with uncertain outcomes - but I have to agree with others' comments - you do have other choices...

In my case, we filed in March, cohabitated until the end of August, and the divorce was finalized the following Feb - almost a full year after the initial filing.

From March to August was fraught - I was constantly anxious about a false DV or some other escalation, but I paid my atty to backchannel with my uBPDxw's atty, which helped to establish  "reality" vs. every little thing that would set off my then-stbx (aligns with your pay more to avoid litigation advice...).   We agreed from the start to prioritize the kids' wellbeing, and my uBPDxw largely kept her agreement.  She was out of the house as much as possible - great!  More time with the kids for me.

With your current situation, I wonder if it's possible to slow things down just a bit?

The key for me was:  The separation was aligned with stipulations.  The stipulations included a schedule.  That schedule became status quo, and was eventually incorporated in the final agreement/decree. 

If there's a chance to get stips signed in the coming weeks or months with a 50-50 schedule (if that's what you want), your stbx would be hard pressed to explain to a judge what change of circumstances occurred thereafter that would necessitate a different final agreement...

If you separate now before you've formally agreed/stipulated to anything, you are heading into a dispute... custody will be tough to win since you moved out. And also tough to grant if you have a PO...   

On the other hand, if you can find a way to slow this process down just a bit, you may be able to agree to some stipulations / temporary orders sooner rather than later that project to a more favorable final outcome, vs. the other all-or-nothing scenarios you've described. 

It sounds like you're doing a sort of low-residency cohab at the moment in which you haven't formally separated / moved out...  how long do you think you and/or your wife can keep that going?   

[AlleyOop23]

I was not suggesting anyone here had said to not get divorced. I’ve just had that tossed at me a few times outside this board “well you can always just not get divorced and continue to put up with this” and I just had to get it out of the way because I couldn’t hear it again from any source. But that’s about me not anyone else.

These are good thoughts all of them. I don’t think I can slow it down. It’s true I think I have only those two choices in reality. I have 3 times asked my wife and 1 of those begging, to please hire or just go see a lawyer. If she had a lawyer the back channel would be amazing as an option.

Thanks I will re read. It’s funny as I was going back I found an earlier post of mine so somilar to my earlier post it’s kind of eeirw

[ForeverDad]

Most of the professionals I met in my divorce were studiously neutral.  Despite my ex behaving in extreme ways, they acted like it was just another day at work after which they would go home to their own homes.  Yet for me it was my life, my family facing a volcanic eruption.

We were ordered to attempt mediation.  Um, didn't go well.  Afterward, she insisted that I stay behind as she left, still posing as though I was dangerous.  The mediator commented, "This woman has issues."

We then had sessions with the court's parenting investigator.  She stated counselors didn't have licensing authority to recommend custody details and so recommended a Custody Evaluation next.

A CE is more in-depth than a basic psych eval which only assesses the single individual and not the relationships.  The Custody Evaluator can make or break a case, there is that much riding on the process.  Some evaluators are minimally trained and experienced.  Fortunately my lawyer chose a child psychologist who was fully trusted by the court.

This is a quote in this recent post where I cited from my custody evaluator's initial report.  You can follow the link and read the entire post.

I recall how my Custody Evaluator summed up our evaluation... "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can... If Shared Parenting is attempted and fails, then father should have custody."  My CE saw ability (or willingness) to share as very important.

Let me make clear:  I was the parent proposing solutions for parenting to succeed while my ex was obstructing, sabotaging, making emotional unsubstantiated allegations, etc.  She was determined to block me without basis.  Your case, as was mine, is different because your need to parent and provide balanced care for the children does have basis.

No matter what you do, however much you try to soften the method of change, your ex (like many described here) can be expected to flame out.  There's little you can do to appease that overreaction, well, not unless you wimp out on standing up for a good (or less bad) outcome for the children. 

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks forever dad. I think this pretty much sums it up and I keep wishing and trying to believe it doesn’t have to be like that. But I think this quote from you sums up lots or great advice I’ve gotten.

No matter what you do, however much you try to soften the method of change, your ex (like many described here) can be expected to flame out.  There's little you can do to appease that overreaction, well, not unless you wimp out on standing up for a good (or less bad) outcome for the children. 
[/quote]

[AlleyOop23]

She is now begging me not to divorce her. And I’m so angry she’s doing this. Insisting I move out then kicking me out. Now she wants me to understand her perimenopause made her do it.

[zondolit]

Most of the professionals I met in my divorce were studiously neutral.  Despite my ex behaving in extreme ways, they acted like it was just another day at work after which they would go home to their own homes.  Yet for me it was my life, my family facing a volcanic eruption.

Thanks for saying this, ForeverDad! It is what I experience in my divorce, and it is especially difficult because it echoes the gaslighting I experienced in my marriage. I begin to question myself: if everyone is acting like my STBx spouse is normal then am I the one off my rocker. . .? And yet when I outright asked my lawyer, "Is this normal--this divorce process, his behavior?" she pulls her hair out and says "NO! Not at all!!!! It makes me so ANGRY!"

[livednlearned]

She is calmer. She is desperately trying to not be abandoned. I  staying to the edges and not sleeping there.

She doesn’t really want to divorce. She wants me to be different and she wants to feel different.

She is now begging me not to divorce her. And I’m so angry she’s doing this. Insisting I move out then kicking me out. Now she wants me to understand her perimenopause made her do it.

I wonder if "staying to the edges" is triggering this tender cycle because it mimics confidence.

Underneath aggressive behavior is fear. Some of that fear is fueled by feeling out of control. If she can control people around her, that's scary -- she's out of control and no one is containing the chaos, and she knows this.  

This is worth looking at: You move to the edges and she takes a step toward you.

Someone (you) is providing a boundary, even if it's a scary one (divorce).

It's two sides of the same extreme -- I'm not saying don't divorce, I'm saying that something is either real or mimicked confidence and this might be why she is responding the way she is.

My current H has a BPD x wife. She was having an affair and alienating the kids and abusing H.

Then she swung toward tender cycle. In part because their middle child had a psychotic break in high school. H (physician) stepped in and managed the crisis (confident, centered) and BPDx wife followed his lead.

I'm giving an example. There are other ways confident, calm, centered approach can keep things steady even in a crisis like divorce.

Not saying it's easy to get there when you're flooded. Or feeling like your entire nervous system is jacked up to 11.

Is there anything left in the tank for this?

[AlleyOop23]

Well said. This articulates something I’ve been feeling. I have been working hard on my own stuff and I got to a point where I feel just done. I think my heart is closed. So the fear of losing the relationship that governed me is gone. And instead I’m just insisting and enforcing limits. I’m not going about it in a kamikaze fashion but for example I’ve said over and over you need to ack olwedge and address kicking me out with threats. And I’m not letting it go. Regardless of the outcome of just feels good to know what I need and insist on it. The feeling is a little exhilarating

I suspect if I’d been able to do this years ago the marriage would either be an incredible success or more likely would have ended a long time ago. I can’t regret two
Amazing kids but I do regret time spent in fear.

[livednlearned]

The question is how to channel that into what's next.

It's calmer now because you are there, expressing confidence/boundaries.

How to keep that and move to the next phase, that's a bigger brainstorm.

What do you think about EyesUp's suggestion to create the kind of schedule/arrangement while cohabitating? From what you've shared, your wife seems to be willing to work with you.

Does it seem that way to you?

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks all. I wasn’t optimistic and she laid into me about my lack of follow through. Over the prior two hours she made a put down joke about my arm size (they’re fine) and called me by my mother’s name, and I’ve actually thrown down over that. She doesn’t want to work on anything. She wants it to stay the same. She’s not going to address anger management or kicking me out of the house. She wants things to stay the same and said she wasn’t going to have me do some power play thing where she doesn’t get mad and if I stop making mistakes then she’ll stop getting mad. But I still feel obligation and guilt. She’s begged me not to leave. She says she’s in such a bad place mentally and emotionally. She can’t take it. I know I can’t educate her about how to treat me anymore (it wasn’t always like this).

So right here, is my hang up:

I keep feeling compelled to explain this break up, this end in a way she’ll accept. Maybe I’m looking subconsciously for permission to leave? I want my guilt absolved? But I keep thinking I need to tell her in a way she’ll understand and think “okay his conclusion about ending it makes sense and I can understand WHY he’s done.”  I feel the need to explain to her that when she barks at me about how I’m not tracking on something or other of the kids, even if I am wrong or making a mistake, I’m just done with her handling it like I’m a misbehaving child and delivering a lecture while the room gets awkward and my kids hope she doesn’t blow up.

So, please help me BPD family with advice about this block. Because my intellectual mind knows this just isn’t possible. It is not a realistic possibility.

[zachira]

For most men, being verbally abused by a woman, is the equivalent of what it is like for a woman to be physically abused by a man. The cruel words hurt and they can make a man stay stuck, unable to stand up for himself, because he feels so wounded. My advice would be to set a boundary that you will not tolerate any kind of verbal abuse by your wife, which would mean once she starts you walk away even if it means getting out of the house for a few hours.

[AlleyOop23]

I have tried setting boundaries. Here I am beyond that. I am done but trying to over come the FoG that arrives when she switches to ‘please don’t go im struggling’ - I’m done just figuring how to convince the no rational part of my brain to leave. ’

[zachira]

Little steps are big steps. It is the all or nothing thinking trying to be perfect that keeps most of us stuck and we have all been there. You can start with small boundaries knowing you will not follow through all the time. It can be like trying to improve your diet. Maybe one day of the week you eat well, and the rest of the week you eat poorly, yet that one day can be increased to more days if you give yourself credit for that small success instead of beating yourself up over the six days you ate poorly.

[Skip]

I keep feeling compelled to explain this break up, this end in a way she’ll accept. Maybe I’m looking subconsciously for permission to leave? I want my guilt absolved? But I keep thinking I need to tell her in a way she’ll understand and think “okay his conclusion about ending it makes sense and I can understand WHY he’s done.”  I feel the need to explain to her that when she barks at me about how I’m not tracking on something or other of the kids, even if I am wrong or making a mistake, I’m just done with her handling it like I’m a misbehaving child and delivering a lecture while the room gets awkward and my kids hope she doesn’t blow up.

Are you looking for redemption? Do you want her to see things the way you see them? That she has treated you unfairly and that you didn't deserve to be treated the way you were treated in the last 2 years? That you have no choice but to divorce?

I don't think this happens in divorces or breakups.

In reading your posts, I do get the feeling this is high on your needs right now. And you are seeking it outside the marriage (triangulation with supporters) and now hoping she will see what they see?

This is the danger of triangulation - it tends to polarize the parties abd move them further from resolve.

You don't get the other parties blessing. Divorce doesn't resolve or end the conflict - it just creates distance from it. Often divorce exacerbates it. High conflict divorce can run it off the meter.

You couldn't resolve these things in the marriage, you are not going to resolve then in the break up and post beak up.

This is the business of divorce.

I know you have been trying to channel your anger to help push you forward and gravitating to others that validate that. Be careful. This is how divorces heated up.

I suggested earlier that anger is not to helpful (its fleeting) and that you focus on your resolve and the ultimate outcomes.

If resolve and the ultimate outcomes is your guiding light, you will realize that there is much value in not inflaming your wife or getting caught up in meaningless fault finding or any drama of any type. She will say hurtful things and push buttons, that's to be expected. Man up, brush it off. You will be inclined to do the same. Don't.

In terms of ultimate outcomes, your kids are very vulnerable to getting very hurt and angry at you in this divorce as you are the perpetrator - and especially if you do aggressive things that your wife can leverage against you with them. Watch it.

Divorce is awful. All divorce. It's devastating. You are going to be hurt. This is the nature of the beast. Stay focused on the outcomes. Minimize the collateral damage.

Think about this. You are wanting her support at some level and yet you are planning to have the police remove her from her home and her children with no warning. She will be out of the house with a quickly packed bag and trying to figure out where to sleep that night. You are not looking out for her, either.

As for outcomes, this is the most important thing about right now. Id the DVPO in your best interest. If you chose the DVPO, are you going to tell those little girls that their mom is so dangerous that she had to be removed for everyone's safety? How will they react to that? Is she going to tell them that you are so mean that you told the police that their mother would hurt them and to kick her out with no place to sleep? How will they react to that?



 

[AlleyOop23]

My lawyers, at my urging came up with a different solution that isn’t so, well, punitive feeling. I feel much better about it.

Thanks again this is a clarifying post. I spent a lot of time need validation of my own reality having been gaslit and brainwashed.

The biggest part now is to step into my own perspective. See my own way. Thank you. That helps.

[Skip]

My lawyers, at my urging came up with a different solution that isn’t so, well, punitive feeling. I feel much better about it.

Can you share? We are all here to learn. 

[AlleyOop23]

Of course when the whole thing started her attitude was, in a nutshell, that I would have to risk conflict to see my kids, conflict that might rise to the level of requiring police intervention and/or might traumatize my kids. That concern dissipated. I regained access to my kids.

This allowed time to finish prepping to dissolution case.

The things around the dvpo that made me uncomfortable were service by law enforcement, escort from the home and then supervised visits with the kids. The problem I had with it was that while there are issues with the kids I cannot and would not swear that I believed my kids’ safety was at risk. And the dcpo filters through the case and restricts my wife in ways I don’t think are necessary or fair and deprives my kids of their mother at a time when I believe they need reassurance. It’s harsh and I think eliminates future collaboration. Also it has this flaw in that my wife doesn’t really have a pace to go.


So the solution became filing the dissolution and asking for a restraining order. The dvpo is a separate proceeding. The restraining order is part of rhe dissolution. I do believe I need the restraining order but my FAMILY does not need the dvpo.

Because the restraining order is part of the larger case and not its own separate creature it can be more flexible both at its inception and over time. I don’t have to drop it off at the kids schools. It can call for days for each of us on and out of the house. Because it doesn’t involve the kids we may for example  choose to make her time away from the house start the next days and not ‘hi I’m officer friendly pack up some stuff and I’ll watch you Leave you have 20minutes’

The reality is I need a few days of non chaos in the home with my kids to get part of their lives packed up and over to my new place and I need a few days to furnish the new house.



It also better manages my wife’s ego and doesn’t say ‘domestic violence’. It may yet be an ugly high conflict divorce but this to me lessens that possibility slightly. The solution can be adjusted to the problem.

And in the end even if everything goes poorly I know I did my best to avoid it.

[Skip]

The biggest part now is to step into my own perspective. See my own way. Thank you. That helps.

 

Because the restraining order is part of the larger case and not its own separate creature it can be more flexible both at its inception and over time.

This makes more sense.

One thing I would suggest is leaving a channel of communication open with her. Cutting all lines of communication creates a lot of angst. One possibility is to use  ourfamilywizard.com This has the added benefit of creating a records of time spent with the kids and communications with the spouse and these records can be used in many courts.

And in the end even if everything goes poorly I know I did my best to avoid it.

There will be many more challenging times...

I would encourage you to open a discussion on how to tell the kids and how to introduce them to the new house. We have many members with a experience in this and hard learned lessons.

[AlleyOop23]

Great suggestion. Thank you!

[ForeverDad]

I have tried setting boundaries. Here I am beyond that. I am done but trying to over come the FOG that arrives when she switches to 'please don’t go I'm struggling' - I'm done just figuring how to convince the no rational part of my brain to leave.

She doesn't want you to go yet refuses to behave so that you won't leave.  This is a lose-lose scenario for you.  (Familiar with the Kobayashi Maru?  It is is a training exercise in the Star Trek franchise designed to test the character of Starfleet Academy cadets by placing them in a no-win scenario.)  "She can't have her cake and eat it too" is the saying I recall.

I too faced this as the End of my marriage approached, and so many others here too.  It was a final blow-out Extinction Burst like none before.  Good thing it didn't intimidate me into backpedaling (retreating) into my prior appeasing patterns that hadn't worked anyway, or the abuse cycles would have continued even longer.

Are you looking for redemption? Do you want her to see things the way you see them? That she has treated you unfairly and that you didn't deserve to be treated the way you were treated in the last 2 years? That you have no choice but to divorce?

I don't think this happens in divorces or breakups.

There's no easy way to say this.  The time for appeasing is long past.  Nothing you could possibly say (JADE = Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) will impact her self-oriented perceptions.  When things are this bad the only viable option is to separate/divorce, seeking the best (least bad) custody and parenting temp order possible.  Don't look back - that would be sabotaging yourself - focus on the future.

Sadly, "Batten down the hatches and full speed ahead."

As for outcomes, this is the most important thing about right now. Id the DVPO in your best interest. If you chose the DVPO, are you going to tell those little girls that their mom is so dangerous that she had to be removed for everyone's safety? How will they react to that? Is she going to tell them that you are so mean that you told the police that their mother would hurt them and to kick her out with no place to sleep? How will they react to that?

DVPO ... This is to to protect YOU from risk of DV.  Yes, you can also include the children in your petition.  (If you're at risk then certainly the children could be at risk too.)  If stbEx is not present when the petition is filed, then it will be considered ex parte and court would schedule a follow up hearing a week or two later where both parents could be present.  Meanwhile, the court would then task children's services to determine the extent of risk to the children and then report the results of their investigation at the hearing.

That's how it works in my area.  The CPS investigator stood up at the subsequent hearing and stated they had "no concerns" about me.  Court dropped "protections" for our preschooler that she had requested.  Unfortunately at that time she had accused me in family court so only I was investigated.  My protection order was from a separate court that did not deal with minors.

Warning, Will Robinson... Do not say in court that their mother is a "good" mother. Sure, maybe she feeds and clothes them but her negative impact on the overall home environment is devastating.

Frankly, if it has to be done, then it has to be done.  Don't fret overmuch about explaining it to your children.  When my ex was gone this is what happened:

I'll tell the story how my son reacted when my ex was out of the house.  (Police had come and I ended up with a temp protection order and possession of the home.)  He was a little over 3.5 years old.

Well she came by with a police escort to get some of her things last night after she got out... .  She also came by today with a police escort to check on our son... .  It seems like she is staying away for now though, which is good.  The kids never ask about her at all.  I was terrified that she was gong to try to move back in... .  It has been so nice having some peace and quiet at home, its been along time since I could sit down and relax without being screamed at.

That's exactly what happened to me.  When the police took away my then-spouse, we had about 6 days before she popped back in our lives.  Her absence was palpable.  The silence was deafening!   My preschooler awoke during the first couple nights and asked where she was and then went right back to sleep.  Never asked again.  After a few days we were making cookies and I mentioned her, thinking to be "fair"* but he refused to talk about her, pulled me back into mixing the batter.  Of course, when she popped back into our lives, she kept saying how much he missed her.

* Beware of our natural inclination to be too fair - it is an otherwise wonderful quality but in our overwhelming PD cases our Nice Guy sense of fairness risks being self-sabotaging, enabling the ex to sabotage us.

[livednlearned]

Restraining orders can be written in different ways.

Are you thinking the PO will go both ways? You mention her ego.

What might be the stipulations be?

[Cat Familiar]

Rather than speculate about the details of your soon-to-be-ending marriage and divorce proceedings—others have offered excellent suggestions—I want to address your emotional state and desire for understanding by your wife.

From what you’ve shared about your wife, I’d give the odds that she’d have an epiphany and would come to an empathetic understanding of how her behavior has impacted you negatively over the years—at about 0%.

That you continue to hope for some level of understanding from her is likely to cause you angst in perpetuity. I do empathize with you as I’ve dealt with this issue myself more than once. The logical side of our brains continues to believe that with a through enough explanation, which may take many opportunities to occur, that our BPD partners will eventually come to understand how well meaning we’ve been and how hard we’ve tried to support and please them, and conversely how poorly they’ve treated us, in spite of how kind we’ve been to them.

What I’ve learned is: IT AIN’T NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.

Instead, I’ve come to embrace my dark side and realize that my motives have not always been pure; I’ve fallen short in my efforts to be a good partner; I’ve not seen my partner’s needs appropriately and tried to accommodate them to the best of my abilities…and…all that is OK. I’ve done the best I could at the time, and I’ve learned how I could have done better. And they’ve done the best they were capable of, but at this point, that’s not good enough for me.

I’m OK with them painting me as the one at fault, the negative influence, the *bad guy*. After all, I know by now that nothing I say or do will change their mind about me. They will think what they think, and that can change from minute to minute.

Letting go of my attachment to their positive regard frees me up mentally and emotionally to be the best version of myself in the moment.

[Skip]

Are you thinking the PO will go both ways? You mention her ego.

This is a good way to shame out of it. 

[zachira]

It may be hard to imagine this right now that there are many high conflict couples who have custody orders that make it so that the divorced or getting divorced parents barely interact and the custody arrangements are set in stone. These types of successful custody arrangements often work well until the children age out of the system. You might want to explore with your lawyer getting this type of custody order now before you get divorced. Others on this site can likely explain better how this works.