a people pleasing question

[livednlearned]

I don't see many people write about people pleasing here, yet there's a lot of codependence instilled when your FOO has personality disorders. It seems like people pleasing is entwined with codependence.

People pleasing to me means not being rooted in self. It's focusing on what other people want or expect or need instead of looking at a situation from my perspective, full stop. I'm sure there are better ways to describe it.

Sometimes when I'm in a social/professional situation, like a conference I can sometimes feel my self ... move around. Does that make sense? I feel rooted in who I am and it's not like I'm a chameleon. But when certain personalities get going I will go along, even if my instinct is to check in or step away. It's almost like I can't even take the small moment required to make sure I'm ok. I work with good people and nothing bad is happening, it's more about being in the presence of people who come across as very certain, and then letting those personalities dominate.

If there is something to disagree about, sometimes I don't even recognize it because it's almost like I'm observing. I don't always know what I even think in that moment. I respect people who seem to be checking in with themselves, doing what is true for them, even in the smallest way.

I'm trying to notice the difference between a strong personality that seems appealing because of FOO wiring, in which navigating narcissism and control and structure meant surviving, compared to people with a strong sense of self who are simply being themselves and having opinions.

Being able to blend into the background and surrender my sense of self for a strong personality is so wired into me. I'm so used to handling a lot that I don't always know how to stop and check in and make sure I'm being myself.

I wish I could be a little more present and aware, and brave, I guess.

I got thinking about emotional labor a while back because of a situation with a professional colleague. I got wondering whether he needed me to help him feel ok because I was a woman, a people pleaser, or both? Would he have asked someone without those qualities to do the same?

Does anyone else with FOO riddled with personality disorders struggle relate to this?

I'm learning there are so many kind, compassionate ways to have boundaries. "Hey, it sounds like you're going through something. Do you have someone you can talk to about this?" Meaning, someone other than me.

I guess I'm trying to understand people pleasing a bit better, and what other people's experiences are with it, and letting go of the pathologic part without becoming an @ssh0l3 

[Older sister]

Your last line…”without being an a$$hole,” is dead on. I am trying to be more assertive, after a lifetime of fawn responses due to disorder in my FOO. The line between the two positions is really blurry. I end up apologizing a lot. I have a good therapist who repeatedly tells me that anger needs to have an expression. She has recommended stream-of-consciousness journaling, when my feeling run high. I helps me calm down, then my thinking brain has a chance to make decisions. My therapist also admitted that her journaling goes into high gear after visits with her FOO.

[Methuen]

I got thinking about emotional labor a while back because of a situation with a professional colleague. I got wondering whether he needed me to help him feel ok because I was a woman, a people pleaser, or both? Would he have asked someone without those qualities to do the same?

Does anyone else with FOO riddled with personality disorders struggle relate to this?

I'm learning there are so many kind, compassionate ways to have boundaries. "Hey, it sounds like you're going through something. Do you have someone you can talk to about this?" Meaning, someone other than me.

 

I'm going to jump on this thread as "people pleasing" traits have also been percolating at the back of my mind occasionally. This seems like a great thread to ponder and reflect, and learn from each other.  It's a really great topic.

During my career it felt good when people trusted me enough to open up when they needed to.  I thought "I must be doing something right for people to trust me".  Then a few years ago, I started to "think" about why people I hardly knew would open up to me about something in the grocery store over the lettuce. Enter critical thinking, an odd feeling, and wondering "am I some kind of magnet for other people's problems"?  I don't really want to hear all their stuff, but - enter people pleasing - I listen and validate and can't just turn them away if they're feeling that bad.  But still, something felt off as it was just happening too much with people who were oversharing.

I love your line:  "do you have someone you can talk to about this?" It's beauty is in it's obvious simplicity, while still being kind.

So why didn't I think of that? 

...because I was trained to look after somebody else's feelings?  Is that my "box"?  Looking after other people, and not myself?  Time to escape from that box and start exploring outside of the box.

People pleasing to me means not being rooted in self. It's focusing on what other people want or expect or need instead of looking at a situation from my perspective, full stop

This.  This. This.

After all, to do anything other than focus on what other people want (according to the Bible of Mom) was selfish, and I really did not want to be selfish. So I've started to be more curious about the various reasons for this.

My "moving around" LNL, do you mean making yourself "fit in" with different people, or groups? 

I am definitely more curious about my need to please others to feel good about myself.  I think my growth in the last few years has been recognizing that I will never be able to meet my mother's needs, accepting that she sees me as a disappointment because I'm not there 24/7 to cater to her needs, being ok with that, but still acknowledging that I am a good person.  In the words of my T, "I am enough".  I used to believe that people pleasing was a positive attribute because I was so uncomfortable with not being able to help someone. It made me feel like a failure.  But not all people can be helped.  And now I see that sometimes I have to also help myself.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I can relate to this. It seems I am more aware of other people's needs and feelings than people who are not raised like me. I don't know if it's good or being too nice.

My H was not raised in a family like mine. I notice if he wants to do something or wants something- he just goes for it. For me, I am more reticent- like waiting for persmission to be able to have or do something I want.

Too much of "going for what you want" could go to the point of being inconsiderate, but too little is people pleasing/co-dependency.

Sometimes it seems as if he's too little aware of other people's feelings but then, maybe it's me being overly concerned? I don't know. I just notice he doesn't seem to have this guilt/fear, waiting for persmission approach that I have.


It's with other people too. Like a co-worker can get stressed or grouchy and snap at me and I forget about it because most of the time, we get along fine,  but I can't even bring myself to do this, and if I did, I'd feel badly about it for hours. At work, I tend to be the "motherly" smooth things over between people and help mentor new younger employees.

I know this must come from having to be an emotional caretaker for BPD mother in the family and also if she knows we want something, her stance is to deny it and shame us for it. So wanting something and saying that is not easy. I still feel I need to wait until "permitted" or offered something. My BPD mother could say and do anything and it was somehow looked over but for us, even a small transgression could be as if it was the crime of the century.

[zachira]

I think most of us who were raised as people pleasers can relate to how we keep finding that being a people pleaser to the wrong people is enabling and damaging to our well being. I was a people pleaser for most of my life to people who were similar to my disordered family members, and have many friendships and relationships that ended over my not having healthy boundaries with people. I still find myself fantasizing about rescuing people desperately in need of help and getting all kinds of accolades for doing so. For many years, I found people who were emotionally healthy to be uninteresting. I am now working on enjoying the moment with people and learning to be a healthy friend. The healthier friends I now have, regularly give me feedback that mostly helps me to be a happier person and a better friend. The disordered people who I have enabled really dislike me now as I am no longer a source of supply for their damaged personalities.

[Methuen]

The disordered people who I have enabled really dislike me now as I am no longer a source of supply for their damaged personalities.

    Oh Zachira.  This made me laugh.

There's a certain dry humour there. 

[Mommydoc]

I love this thread as I think and journal a lot about this. There are a lot of things that play into people pleasing. First borns, particularly first born women, regardless of other dynamics are likely to have people pleasing tendencies.  Having a FOO  that values “ the family” or prioritizes the needs of a specific member of the family , thereby promoting self sacrifice, and prioritizing  the social harmony of the family  over self-interest. It can set us up to  develop into adults who are overly people pleasing, guilt ridden and unable to prioritize or own needs or speak up for ourselves .

Professionally, this played out for me, in being conflict averse and unable to speak up in certain circumstances. (Proud to say I overcame most of that). I remember one of my first meetings with executive peers, when I was the new person and the only woman in the room with some very assertive male execs. I had a lot to say on a topic and couldn’t seem to find a pause in the discourse to express myself, so I raised my hand waiting for permission to speak… one of them ( a very nice guy) paused looked at me and said why are you raising your hand, just speak up.  They all got a chuckle, not in a mean way, at my expense. I realized that I needed to be more assertive and not wait for permission to speak and that speaking up and sharing alternate view points was valuable.

Right now, I am at an interesting cross roads. Over the 15 years I have been a caregiver for my parents, my two children have become adults and become independent financially. Since retiring, I no longer carry all the responsibility of my job and all the staff and physicians depending on me. The night my mom died last week my son said to me “Mom, for the first time in a long time, you don’t have anyone depending on you to take care of them,  but yourself ( not counting my new puppy and husband LOL). I recognize that is a huge change for me and it means really digging into, who I am, and who I want to be in this world for my next chapter, without having to please my parents or sister.  Deep down I will always be a people pleaser, but a lot of my work in therapy has been about letting of it. I have come a long way, but know there is still work in this journey.

[livednlearned]

Your last line…”without being an a$$hole,” is dead on. I am trying to be more assertive, after a lifetime of fawn responses due to disorder in my FOO. The line between the two positions is really blurry.

OS, what does being an a$$hole mean to you specifically? Like you say, the line is blurry. But do you feel you have a grasp on what exactly defines "a$$hole" behavior? I'm not sure I do for me.

When I try war gaming responses to situations where I want to be assertive, my husband will give me feedback that maybe my suggested approach either misses the mark or is a bit harsh. These are typically new things I'm trying out so I run them by him. So for example, if my natural instinct is to be a people pleaser, and I want to overcome that, I seem to gravitate to something that isn't aggressive but also isn't necessarily nice. I'm beginning to think that there is "not necessarily nice" which is ok, maybe an average response, but is a bit of a kung fu chop. And then there is assertive, which is much more skilled, where both people feel respected even though we might not agree.

"people pleasing" traits have also been percolating at the back of my mind occasionally.

Methuen, I'm curious about your example of people pleasing. The example you give is about not shutting someone down. Or listening more than you want. Is it important that you do that in a kind way? If so, how important it that? Do you feel anger when you listen and don't want to?

Do you see people pleasing appearing in other ways in other parts of your life? I have the "listening too well" habit. Would most people say that you are an excellent listener, and do you see that as part of people pleasing? Would your family describe you as a people pleaser? Would your colleagues say the same?

I'm kind of swinging on a pendulum at the moment. I'll recognize that I'm people pleasing and then I'll swing the other way. Neither feel good.

My "moving around" LNL, do you mean making yourself "fit in" with different people, or groups? 

I don't know if it's exactly "fit in" the way, say, a teen tries to fit in with a group. It's more about situational dynamics where I notice that I seem to not have a strong opinion. If it's socially awkward to not have an opinion, I'll take one in order to smooth things over for myself.

I am definitely more curious about my need to please others to feel good about myself.

 

Something I'm working through is the myth or narrative that "people pleasing" = "good person" which is not necessarily true. And the opposite of "people pleasing" is not "self-centered."

[livednlearned]

I was a people pleaser for most of my life to people who were similar to my disordered family members, and have many friendships and relationships that ended over my not having healthy boundaries with people.

zachira, do you think that people pleasing is about having porous boundaries?

Having a FOO  that values “ the family” or prioritizes the needs of a specific member of the family , thereby promoting self sacrifice, and prioritizing  the social harmony of the family  over self-interest. It can set us up to  develop into adults who are overly people pleasing, guilt ridden and unable to prioritize or own needs or speak up for ourselves.

This is such a succinct way to spell out the downsides of how we were raised. I know I've got better with age and practice. I wish I felt more confident in the moment in changing some of these tendencies.

I realized that I needed to be more assertive and not wait for permission to speak and that speaking up and sharing alternate view points was valuable.

Would it be different for you if someone in that meeting didn't want you there?

Deep down I will always be a people pleaser, but a lot of my work in therapy has been about letting of it. I have come a long way, but know there is still work in this journey.

I sense the same for me. What is it about people pleasing that you think will always be there for you?

[SaltyDawg]

People Pleasing...

Everyone on this board who answers others questions is a people pleaser.  I personally think every single person who has visited this board (with the sole exception for the self-aware psychopath who visited last year who wanted to understand the BPD relationship dynamic) is a 'people pleaser'.  If you are here, you are a people pleaser.

Volunteers are 'people pleasers'.

Being a people pleaser, when done in moderation, is a very good thing as it helps out those in need.

However, if it becomes excessive with appeasing, being a doormat, being a sponge for someone else's abuse, this is when it becomes toxic and dysfunctional.  I have learned that a lack of healthy boundaries allows the acts of people pleasing to become this unhealthy.  Personally I am working on this aspect - I've set up healthy boundaries, and my relationship with my undiagnosed wife is greatly improved.

If it impacts your quality of life, it is too much.  However, if you find it rewarding, and it fills your cup, then it is good.  For each person, the level of pleasing people which is healthy is different for each individual person.

From Google AI:

Generative AI is experimental. Info quality may vary.

People-pleasing is a personality trait that describes someone who feels a strong urge to please others, even at their own expense. People-pleasers are often seen as agreeable, helpful, and kind. They may have trouble advocating for themselves, which can lead to a harmful pattern of self-sacrifice or self-neglect.

Signs of people-pleasing include:
+Putting others' needs ahead of their own
+Altering their personality around others
+Finding it difficult to say "no"
+Agreeing to something they don't want to do
+Accepting projects with unrealistic deadlines
+Frequently apologizing for things they have no control over

People-pleasing is not a medical diagnosis or a personality trait that psychologists measure. It can be a response to trauma, called fawning. According to Peter Walker, a licensed psychologist and expert in complex trauma, “Fawn types seek safety by merging with the wishes, needs, and demands of others”.

I made 'bold' the ones that would affect your perception of "Sometimes when I'm in a social/professional situation, like a conference I can sometimes feel my self ... move around."

A lot of that sounds like codependent behavior too, and people pleasing is a trait of being codependent.

How 'deep' do you want to go down this 'rabbit hole' of being a 'people pleaser'?

Being a 'people pleaser' enables BPD and other cluster B personalities to take advantage of you.

If you have a therapist, I think this would be a good topic to do a deep dive on with them.

Take care with self-care.

[Notwendy]

I have made progress on some of these traits:

Before 12 steps co-dependency work, this is where I would be-

Signs of people-pleasing include:
+Putting others' needs ahead of their own
+Altering their personality around others
+Finding it difficult to say "no"
+Agreeing to something they don't want to do
+Accepting projects with unrealistic deadlines
+Frequently apologizing for things they have no control over

Now, I'd consider these to be the main ones:

Signs of people-pleasing include:
+Putting others' needs ahead of their own- (yes but not as much).
+Altering their personality around others
+Finding it difficult to say "no" (yes but not as much)
+Agreeing to something they don't want to do (yes but not as much)
+Accepting projects with unrealistic deadlines
+Frequently apologizing for things they have no control over

The personality one- that's an interesting one and I can trace it back to the teen years. I think all teens are insecure and do this to some extent but for me, my friends were the main source of affirmation that I had and so I felt I needed to do this or they woudn't like me.

I also feared that they'd discover the "truth" about my mother and if they did- they would not like me. But her behavior is not my fault. Still, I had this fear.

This kind of thing continued into adulthood until I could see it for what it was- people pleasing and fear of not being liked. I do think we need to maintain a level of respectful behavior towards people no matter how we feel about them, but likely we won't "like" everyone we meet and vice versa.

[livednlearned]

Altruism, kindness, generosity -- these to me are not people pleasing.

When I do something at the expense of what I want or what is good for me, that is people pleasing.

[SaltyDawg]

"Altruism, kindness, generosity -- these to me are not people pleasing."  Why?

When I am kind and generous with others with altruistic intent, I find it to be quite rewarding, as most people are quite grateful and appreciative - in other words, I would presume (those that have not thanked me) these people are pleased with what I am doing - people pleasing.  I would like to think that each one of us who posts here to help others is doing the same - just like what I am doing here.  I consider what I am writing and sharing with this group to be mostly pleasing them, and that includes (but not limited to) both you LnL and also you NW.

Knowing what my kindness and generosity brings to others, the mere knowledge that it helped someone else out, is enough 'reward' for me as it makes me 'smile' on the inside.  It is so rewarding, I occasionally forego sleep (something that is good for me) and pay attention to other things that need my attention.  How is this not people pleasing?

I normally would not call attention to this (it's prideful, I prefer to be humble), but since it is the topic at hand, I'm saying it.  I am trying to help out others with my perspective, my experience, so others will be less burdened and better off and can learn from my mistakes, just as I have learned from the mistakes of others.

Thoughts?

[zachira]

In response to the question about people pleasing and boundaries, I do think people pleasing is all about having unhealthy boundaries. I often ask myself why did I do all kinds of things for people who did not appreciate me at all, especially listening to people for hours on end, without their ever asking anything about me and their getting mad when I started to volunteer any information about how I was feeling and doing. I have closely examined my need for family and how I supported the false family narratives so I could be a part of the family. I am now low contact and no contact with most of my relatives, though I have been pleasantly surprised by the few I am able to have healthier and evolving relationships with.
I also think that healthy relationships are about having boundaries. I am a work in progress learning how to have healthy boundaries with everybody. This makes sense as in my FOO and extended family, healthy boundaries did not exist for the most part. The boundaries that do exist support the multigenerational narratives that some people are perfect despite being narcissistic and abusive, and that other people are the worst people in the world, no matter how much they sacrifice to please the family. I went to the big celebration of life of a family member recently. I was ignored by a lot of family members and somehow okay with that. I kept the focus on the positive, that there are a few family members and long time family friends, that I do want to have in my life.

[livednlearned]

"Altruism, kindness, generosity -- these to me are not people pleasing."  Why?

I'm not referring to people pleasing in its positive form, that's all.

People pleasing may have those elements, I am talking about the aspects that come from habits learning in a dysfunctional family.

Do you see the difference?

Define people pleasing however you prefer. My purpose here is to understand and learn from the limitations where I struggle to be authentic, doing things at my expense.

[Mommydoc]

 I see it as all strengths, when overused, can become a weakness. Altruism, kindness and generosity are all strengths. When we people please to the point of neglecting our own needs for others, perhaps that is when it becomes a weakness.

For me, it’s been a journey. First, I needed to believe that my needs were as important as others and that I was worthy. In my FOO, “Being a good sister” was part of how I earned my parents approval. I know now that I took it to an extreme. For so long they excused my sister’s behavior, or told me to be the bigger person. But they both struggled with her too, and eventually they each separately encouraged me to focus on myself and not try to appease her.., it was just pretty deeply engrained in me. And it is where my work continues. Even this week, my adult children had different ideas about how to our very short time together this weekend, and I was trying to make both of them happy. At a certain point, I told  my daughter, what I need is for the 4 of us to be together, this was planned months ago and I still want to do it, so please just go along with the plan. But that was really hard for me to do.

[Notwendy]

Mommydoc - substitute my mother for your sister and it's the same message.

I have a "report" from when I was in preschool and they give parents a summary of the child's developmental skills. It says I was telling them about my stuffed animals at home and how I have to be "very very good" - and then said the animals have to be very very good so even by 3 or 4 I learned that.

I was so afraid of being angry at anyone. I felt I had to be nice all the time. In college, I was dating a guy and he purposely tried to make me angry at him. I asked him why and he said it felt annoying and fake that I was always trying to be too nice. Wow, he picked up on the co-dependency. We think that being people pleasing will make others like us but being "too nice" actually turns people off in a way. That relationship didn't last but I still recall that comment.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi LnL,

It's been some time since I posted here, but I wanted to share a beautiful find I had recently, it's a book called : The Courage to be disliked.

I've had a lot of thoughts on people pleasing, assertion, boundaries... For me, people pleasing is a gesture done in exchange for love or external validation that I am/was unable to provide to myself. The problem is not the gesture itself, but the "hidden" objective behind the gesture.

When one decides to make a gesture out of love, truly altruisticly, one feel centered within one self...this is not people pleasing. It is important for us, as humans, as a social animal, to feel that we are contributing to society, to our community, to our family, to the lives of people we love. Contributing by being kind of someone else, as long as it is done from a place of love and genuine kindness, is not people pleasing.

Narcissists are interested in "people pleasers" because people pleasers lack the self worth and capacity to self regulate, they lack the inner capacity to provide themselves with the validation they crave, which makes them invaluable targets for narcissistic abuse. A narcissist will not be interested in somehow that is kind for the sake of being kind, I can guarantee that...because this person is feeling whole, which renders her less vulnerable to narcissistic abuse.

Being an observer is not a bad thing. Being conflict avoidant is not a bad thing either, this has many benefits actually, and works wonders for self preservation. I understand being swayed form one opinion to the next when confronted with very opinionated and confident people... But consider that this might not stems from your people pleaser tendencies, nor even from a lack of confidence... Maybe you are just naturally a more open person, meaning you'd score very high on openness.

Openness is NOT a bad thing, on the contrary, it gives you the ability to experience multiple ideas, and navigate them philosophially to find the one that resonates the most with your inner self .. it might sometimes feel like a lack of self and people pleasing, but it isn't. It's just a way to experience life in a very open manner... I personally thing being high on openness means more opportunities for self growth...

Now, it is different if what you are feeling is inadequacy, competition and a desire to be seen and validated from those people. If what is keeping you from talking out is this, then yes, it would be people pleasing... The objective then would be to provide those needs for yourself...I highly recommend "The courage to be disliked"... It is very succinct, an easy read, but it might just change your life.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I wanted to clarify, concerning the narcissistic abuse, that the person that kind for the sake of kindness, just that is able to provide themselves with their own inner validation, without needing external validation, is less interesting to a real narcissist because they won't give in to the power dynamic that the narcissist craves... While someone who is being kind in an effort to be validated externally, or to feel better about themselves, might start feeling resentment, and might give in to the power dynamic that the narcissist craves... In that kind of relationships (narcissist codepensant) both people are craving the same thing and unconsciously fighting for power, they are just using different tools.

Someone who is kind, without being "a people pleaser" will simply not give in to this power dynamic...

This is my view on people pleasing today... Might change as I keep discovering myself, but so far, this view has been the most helpful to me in my self-discovery journey.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
So good to hear from you. You have acquired a lot of wisdom through lots of soul searching and finding ways to understand the make up of the core of the people you interact with.
I have always valued authentic kindness and people who are comfortable in their own skin. The narcissists just hate me and now more than ever because they get it right away that I am not easy to manipulate and be fooled by their false selves as I become more comfortable with myself and healthy intimate relationships. I still am working on not being so bothered by being disliked while trying to be more compassionate towards myself which makes it easier to be kinder to others because it genuinely reflects how I feel inside. I have put your book on my list of must reads.

[Notwendy]

Doing 12 step work- one of the key points I learned was to tune into my own feelings- and resentment was something to look at. If I was doing something "nice" but feeling resentment- that is people pleasing, co-dependency. If I didn't feel resentment- that was a genuine gesture of being nice.

It's not always easy to discern, more gray than black or white. We don't live on an island. There are things we do to get along with people that we don't always want to do.

The distinction is- are we willing to do it. I might not want to clean the kitchen but if I want a clean kitchen- I am willing to do it.

I might not want to do a task at work but if it's part of my job and I want to keep my job- I am willing to do it.

But if it's an absolute "no"- I do not want to do something but say "yes" and do it anyway- then there will be resentment. What is the reason for the "yes"? For me, it's been to avoid the person being angry.

It's not only narcisists who exploit people pleasers but employers as well. I have begun to be more aware of this at work recently.  With co-workers, it's reciprocal- we help each other - but it's easier for a supervisor to take advantage of someone who is a people pleaser.

[Riv3rW0lf]

People pleasing goes much further than doing things, it's a whole way of being, a camouflage one will keep to keep one safe in a world they consider unsafe.

Once one finally accepts to look at others people as camarades, instead of ennemies or competition, it becomes easier to hold boundaries and to become authentic. It's more about who we are in front of other, than what we do for them. What we do and keep saying yes too, might be a symptom, but generally speaking, the mindset being is what matter the most, and the objective of the action.

Resentment is a complex feeling one can feel even when they are not in a people pleasing state, so this is not what I personally use as an indicator.

I wouldn't consider cleaning a kitchen and doing tasks at work people pleasing. I would, however, consider it people pleasing if someone accepted to do something unethical to keep the approbation of their boss, under the pretext that they don't want to lose their job. If they kept themselves unhappy, and powerless, out of fear.

We all have and make choices. People pleasing is simply another way to live in a victim-like state, hidden from the rest of the world.

[Notwendy]

 I have noticed a shift for me as I become less people pleasing. I want to do a good job at work- that is my value system- not people pleasing- but it's my co-dependent tendencies that an exploitative superior can take advantage of. I tend to be a "team player" while others are out for themselves. Neither is entirely wrong- there needs to be a balance- not too much of one or the other.

[Riv3rW0lf]

One can only be true to themselves.

It doesn't matter how other people around behave, at some point, I believe one stops noticing when they are in line with their own inner self.

The past few weeks, I've witnessed people saying things that would have made me doubt myself before, and this time around, I simply didn't mind, I've actually realised it way later, how it could have come across, but I didn't even feel like they were trying to hurt me or anything. People can say and do what they want, it's their scene. I am only responsible for myself and my own reaction. I can choose to see someone trying to hurt me, or I can choose to focus on something else... Because I have no idea what they were thinking when they said the thing in question, and I don't even know if it truly was said in an effort to hurt me or not.

Saying things like "everyone is out of themselves" outline a mindset in which you don't trust people around you at work. What I am saying is : it doesn't matter what others do, and who they choose to be around us.. when one is radically authentic, the world tend to autocorrect around them.

You can do your tasks, and still be a team player without feeling like people will take advantage of it, and without even feeling resentment when it appears it might be the case... It all depends on your own viewpoint. How you feel is up to you, not up to them.

[livednlearned]

Like zachira said, it's nice to hear from you again Riv3rW0lf. I've thought about you and wondered how you were doing  

people pleasing is a gesture done in exchange for love or external validation that I am/was unable to provide to myself. The problem is not the gesture itself, but the "hidden" objective behind the gesture.

This so beautifully summarizes what I have been trying to work through. It could not have come at a better time.

People pleasing goes much further than doing things, it's a whole way of being, a camouflage one will keep to keep one safe in a world they consider unsafe.

And this too.

I think this has been a missing piece for me in understanding something. A professional colleague has been very tricky for me. His behavior and my response is in part what prompted me to think about people pleasing. I came back from a conference where I saw him and I'm not impressed with how I handled things but this insight you shared helped me make sense of it.

I was inauthentic and conflict avoidant when I saw him. I had been quietly pulling back from behaviors I began to realize were rooted in weak boundaries. Sometimes he interpreted this as me being upset with him. Yet, he would chose to address this in public spaces where it was socially chaotic. What would I say as someone being authentic?

For example, we were in a busy lobby. He was chatting with a group of people, and I was walking with a group of people. He called out to me and asked if I was offended by something he said. My husband pointed out that this way of addressing a beef (for lack of a better word) narrowed my options in how I could respond. I had one of the biggest presentations of my career happening, I was jet lagged and travel weary, it was socially taxing and highly stimulating. He could have texted me to say "Hey can we talk" or "Have I said anything to show disrespect, etc." or "Do you have some time to grab a quick coffee?" Instead it was grabbing my jacket as I passed through a crowded hallway with colleagues as we headed to our seats.

I guess what I'm understanding in the context of awkward moments like this when I can sense myself trying to protect something, is that people pleasing behaviors can be a way to get through a rough patch. It wasn't exactly that I was unsafe, it was more that something inauthentic was masking as authentic, and my choices were limited. If I shout at you across the room, "Are you mad at me?" it's not exactly a set up for meaningful discussion. So then something that lacks meaning comes back.

It is similar with my stepdaughter. It could be that it's harder to be authentic with people who may not have the capacity for authenticity. It might be easier in the moment to be authentic. After things have gone on for a while, getting back to that authenticity is not so easy, at least not without some emotional labor.

I admired a therapist I had for her insight into situations that seemed so complex for me. If I were to share with her the situation with this colleague, her response (I'm guessing) would be to assess that he wasn't really asking to resolve things, he was simply trying to feel better, and that is not my job.

I don't know if that makes sense. Your insight makes me realize that people pleasing as a way to camouflage can be a safety move. It can be a form of authenticity to recognize that the stove seems hot and it is not my job to explain why I'm not touching it.

[Notwendy]

Your insight makes me realize that people pleasing as a way to camouflage can be a safety move. It can be a form of authenticity to recognize that the stove seems hot and it is not my job to explain why I'm not touching it.

I have done it as a protective move too. I don't want to show someone my authentic self. I think the motivation is a key to if it's being co-dependent or strategic. If the motivation is fear of not being liked, or wanting to be liked, and it's a betrayal of self- that is co-dependency.

If it's strategic- I am in control of what I want to reveal to you- that could also be being authentic to yourself- if not to the other person. As long as you don't cross the line into being dishonest or manipulative, I think it's a protective strategy. "You are my co-worker and I don't want to get into this issue: at a work conference, or, "I don't want to be that close to my co-worker, just close enough to have a working relationship"

[Riv3rW0lf]

Yes, I wouldn't call it people pleasing if it is a strategic move done to remain centered as much as possible in a stressful moment.

Our personalities are very complex, and we tend to hold ourselves to a very high standard... But this standard often lacks the complexity it needs to be whole. It's ok to hide ourselves to certain people, and yes, it is still being authentic : to ourselves. We are the only ones we should aim to be completely authentic with, because at the end of the day, you are the only one who will be living with your choices. As long as you did what felt right for you in that moment, then it is all that matters.

I am not sure what you felt at that moment when he called you across the room and why it made you doubt yourself?

For what it is worth, I agree with your therapist... My "centered" answer likely would have been something like : "This is not the time nor the place for this kind of discussion. See you later."

This would have been me sending him back his energy with a mirror, a wall of sort, while offering a hand with that "seeing you later", i.e. I am not upset but I won't carry that stress for you right now.

It does all come down to a separation of tasks... This was his move. He decided to come at you at a bad moment, likely indeed looking to make himself feel better... In a public setting, the only possible answers feel like : "no it's fine !"

But the key here is to remain true to yourself. There are many options... One just have to stop caring what others will think... Because what others will think is simply not in one's own power...

I do think you would enjoy the book I mentioned... It does discuss work relationships as well, and task separation. It is such a strong yet short read... Well worth your time if you are looking into task separation and authenticity. Maybe you already know all that is written there, in which case, it's a good reminder, and a good way to remain connected to this knowledge by rereading passages once in a while to center ourselves.

So.. of you want to dive deeper, I am curious about what was your reaction to your colleague approach, and why you doubted it?

[livednlearned]

I am not sure what you felt at that moment when he called you across the room and why it made you doubt yourself?

I wanted to feel rooted in myself and authentic. I knew there would be a waffle on my part and a tendency deflate the conflict instead of being direct. I could have said a lot of things but I think I was in self-preservation mode, in part because I didn't want to add any stress because I was trying to manage already. I was trying to take care of myself in two ways that kind of conflicted with each other: be authentic and be safe.

When he called across the room, I feigned some ignorance about what he was talking about.

My "centered" answer likely would have been something like : "This is not the time nor the place for this kind of discussion. See you later."

I remember some posts we shared a while back when I was working through anger about SD26 and I wonder if our histories with anger and how we express that anger makes confrontation different for us? I would like to be more like what I imagine you do. I have been raised to repress repress repress repress and then on top of that, be gracious. So push down anger then act totally the opposite. I feel like being trained to be gracious has really  :cursing:ed me up in life.

I do think you would enjoy the book I mentioned... It does discuss work relationships as well, and task separation.

I ordered it 

I am curious about what was your reaction to your colleague approach, and why you doubted it?

I don't really know. I think like you said I had high standards. I wanted to put the interaction to rest without worrying whether he felt ok. I knew he would say something but I didn't know what or when. I also didn't want to be direct then feel like I had to take care of him. I wanted to feel authentic and not smooth things over, and couldn't quite make that happen for myself. I chose to feel safe. Until you wrote what you did, I was in the process of beating myself up for not being stronger. Given what else was going on in the moment, with this new perspective, I can forgive myself for choosing safety. I'm still learning and practicing, and trying to understand.

This colleague is affable, personable on the surface, but does not have good boundaries. He tells women he has a "flirtatious personality," yet I sense he is angry and insecure, not a covert narcissist necessarily although maybe so, it's hard to tell. He reads a room and sizes it up, then acts based on how the winds are blowing, so I suspect maybe there is a similar wound there to mine but he handles it a different way.

Reading a sample of the book, another way I could look at it is that I created a state of anxiety for myself by anticipating conflict so I could stay stuck, choosing to feel safe versus feeling authentic.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Reading a sample of the book, another way I could look at it is that I created a state of anxiety for myself by anticipating conflict so I could stay stuck, choosing to feel safe versus feeling authentic.

Beautifully put. And I wand to stress that this is not, in anyway, wrong or weak or anything the like. I personally consider that this phrasing though, this way of looking at things : it reels back all the power back in. It is not easy, habits are hard to change, but in way at least, you get your very own choice back, and you deserve to have a choice.

I am glad my comment helped you. But again, really, you helped yourself with it... You could have just as easily decided I was wrong and continue beating yourself up, but this is not who you are. You strike me as an open person, always willing to look within and dive deeper, on a never-ending journey of self healing and self growth. You know, I now really do believe there is a way out of those traumatized parts that get triggered into control of our self... A way to put our self back in control once and for all.

I trust your view of this colleague of yours and I think this deep understanding of his personality will, in the end, play to your advantage in all this and in figuring out who you want to be within this relationship with him... Because I do believe that being authentic is not the same as always acting the same way... Being authentic, for me anyway, is having access to all of my parts, and learning to use them in their proper setting... 

I am aware there are differences, but I wholeheartedly believe your healthy assertion is in there somewhere... Just need to reroute your connection to this part of yours, but it is there...

Some people recommends watching videos or movies with characters or people that embodies those parts we want to develop in ourselves... As a way to... Get the vibe within, you know? Practice in the shower, again and again. It sounds a bit simple... But I am starting to believe it really is... And it is ourselves trapping ourselves by making it more complicated than it ought to be.

You are doing great, and I am grateful you brought this subject up. I do hope you will enjoy this book. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

We need to discipline our thought patterns and our minds... That's how I am looking at it right now... To be in control, completely, of our own projections would be the ultimate goal.