Well looks like divorce is finally happening

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Don't know if I'm afraid of change but I've never file and don't want it to end.  She filed on me and is forcing my hand.  Don't know if this is a good thing or not.

Process just started and attorney hired.  I don't think she thought things through and once she realized she was going to have to split custody she told her attorney I'm an alcoholic and I need alcohol monitoring on my vehicle, she should get full custody and me visitation. Talk about shocked.  So now I'm very upset and don't know I would ever take her back.

Also accusing me of Financial abuse.   Seriously?  She spends all our money and had us on a path for bankruptcy.   Whether I wanted to divorce or not, bankruptcy was going to force my hand eventually.  Wasn't going to let that happen.

She's telling everyone how she was abused but now works and has a good job.  She's out looking at houses she can't afford.  Said she needs to move to fund peace in her life.

She told me she would cancel if I agree to sell our house and move.  Giant financial mistake and I feel like 30 days after making a huge mistake she'll be right back where she was looking to calm the chaos and needing to find peace.  Feel like this I'd manipulation and I can't make this Giant mistake for her to be right back here 30 days later.

She wants to leave the marital house.  She always needs the fresh start.  I don't want to end her custody but I think me being the primary parent and the kids staying in the house they live in with stability from me is best.  Am I wrong?  I want to make sure I'm not making an emotional decision.

She's calling people telling them I'm horrible and.encouraging them not to help me.

I'm calm.  We are cohabitation on separate sides of the house.

What else do I need to be aware of or look out for.  I feel sad and upset this is happening but I need to handle it right.

[mikejones75093]

Don't know if I'm afraid of change but I've never file and don't want it to end.  She filed on me and is forcing my hand.  Don't know if this is a good thing or not.

Process just started and attorney hired.  I don't think she thought things through and once she realized she was going to have to split custody she told her attorney I'm an alcoholic and I need alcohol monitoring on my vehicle, she should get full custody and me visitation. Talk about shocked.  So now I'm very upset and don't know I would ever take her back.

Also accusing me of Financial abuse.   Seriously?  She spends all our money and had us on a path for bankruptcy.   Whether I wanted to divorce or not, bankruptcy was going to force my hand eventually.  Wasn't going to let that happen.

She's telling everyone how she was abused but now works and has a good job.  She's out looking at houses she can't afford.  Said she needs to move to fund peace in her life.

She told me she would cancel if I agree to sell our house and move.  Giant financial mistake and I feel like 30 days after making a huge mistake she'll be right back where she was looking to calm the chaos and needing to find peace.  Feel like this I'd manipulation and I can't make this Giant mistake for her to be right back here 30 days later.

She wants to leave the marital house.  She always needs the fresh start.  I don't want to end her custody but I think me being the primary parent and the kids staying in the house they live in with stability from me is best.  Am I wrong?  I want to make sure I'm not making an emotional decision.

She's calling people telling them I'm horrible and.encouraging them not to help me.

I'm calm.  We are cohabitation on separate sides of the house.

What else do I need to be aware of or look out for.  I feel sad and upset this is happening but I need to handle it right.

[SaltyDawg]

Two resources that you may want to read (if you haven't already done so), I've read both, there is some overlap.  The first one concentrates on the alienating issue, the 2nd one is a more general guide on divorce, read "Splitting" first as it has what to do and what not to do and discusses what to do when being falsely accused, as you are.

"Don't Alienate the Kids! Raising Resilient Children While Avoiding High Conflict Divorce"
By Bill Eddy · 2010

"Splitting - Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder"  By Bill Eddy, Randi Kreger, William A. Eddy · 2021

Get the books, best $$$'s you can spend on your defence now.  You can see the 'quick start guide' at https://www.google.com/books/edition/Splitting/WxQxEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT8&printsec=frontcover

[mikejones75093]

I've read splitting.   Was ok, didn't really get much from it.

As far as alienating I'll check that out.  She's definitely doing it.

Talking about moving away and how amazing it will be to get ice cream and go to the park.

Also telling the kids all I do is drink.  One of my kids already came up to me and said you're just drunk when she had to go to bed on a Sunday night.

I'm concerned a lot about how their mother will treat them without me there to absorb the punishment but not trying to end her custody.  For stability I think it's best I'm the primary or whatever you call it.  Main residence and go to school at my house so they aren't always subject to her constantly reinventing herself to try and find peace.

[ForeverDad]

Remember the old adage, "Nice guys finish last"?  That especially applies here.  You're a Nice Guy (like the Nice Gals here too) and yes you're likely to get sucker punched if you don't see how your nice perspectives put you at increased risks.

I don't want to end her custody but I think me being the primary parent and the kids staying in the house they live in with stability from me is best.  Am I wrong?  I want to make sure I'm not making an emotional decision.

Number one piece of advice is to set aside your natural inclination to empathize for her while she is out aggressively "telling everyone how she was abused" and prepping your own kids to parrot her perceptions "One of my kids already came up to me and said you're just drunk".

You're worried about whether you should take away her custody?  Huh?  Believe me, I've been there, done that (divorce).  Unless the court determines she has abused the children or is a danger to the children, you have little choice in the matter, odds are the court would issue temp joint custody at best or at worst no custody for you.  (In my two temp orders before the final decree two years later, my ex had full custody and I had none.  This when she was initially facing a charge of Threat of DV.  She was looking that bad as a spouse but still court defaulted  custody to her!  (Of course if I raised the matter today, court would respond and say it was just temporary orders.  Then I'd counter with, "How can two year temporary orders be considered temporary?")

Set aside your thinking of being "fair" with equal time, she's already charging ahead to paint you as a bad husband and bad father.  On the other hand you can be "fair" to yourself (as a good man and a good father) and your children.  Forget about pleasing your wife.  You've already stood up and said No to moving to more expensive and unaffordable housing just so she can feel better for awhile.

Your priority is (1) yourself and (2) your parenting.  Your kids deserve a better life than she would provide.  You know that.  But she's not listening.  (That's predictable.)  So instead focus upon gathering your documentation of the contrast between you and her so that it can be presented to the court.  You may need  Custody Evaluation.

Most of us fathers here encountered a surprise, we thought court would listen to us but at best it just viewed us as two bickering parents.  (And in my case, in a brief half hour without my input the magistrate handed her a temp order with full temp custody and majority time - yes, despite in another court she had a pending case against her of Threat of DV.)  That was 18 years ago, but it was clear that mothers in my area got default preferential treatment.  It seemed the process wasn't "why should dad get the kids?" but rather "why shouldn't mother get the kids?"  More or less, she was deferred to as parent for the child but I was expected to provide $$$ support as the one with deep money pockets.  Like I was an afterthought to the family unit.)

Your priority is (1) yourself and (2) your parenting.  At this point, with her actively painting you as virtually Mr Evil Personified rather than as a trusted spouse, I'm inclined to think you ought to ask your counselor why you should even want her back.)

EDIT:  If you must care that much for a sabotaging, obstructing and disparaging spouse, then at least focus FIRST on yourself, your parenting and your children, then if there is anything left over you can ponder how she can fit in.  You shouldn't be nasty but neither should you let her sabotage you.

[mikejones75093]

Remember the old adage, "Nice guys finish last"?  That especially applies here.  You're a Nice Guy (like the Nice Gals here too) and yes you're likely to get sucker punched if you don't see how your nice perspectives put you at increased risks.

Number one piece of advice is to set aside your natural inclination to empathize for her while she is out aggressively "telling everyone how she was abused" and prepping your own kids to parrot her perceptions "One of my kids already came up to me and said you're just drunk".

You're worried about whether you should take away her custody?  Huh?  Believe me, I've been there, done that (divorce).  Unless the court determines she has abused the children or is a danger to the children, you have little choice in the matter, odds are the court would issue temp joint custody at best or at worst no custody for you.  (In my two temp orders before the final decree two years later, my ex had full custody and I had none.  This when she was initially facing a charge of Threat of DV.  She was looking that bad as a spouse but still court defaulted  custody to her!  (Of course if I raised the matter today, court would respond and say it was just temporary orders.  Then I'd counter with, "How can two year temporary orders be considered temporary?")

Set aside your thinking of being "fair" with equal time, she's already charging ahead to paint you as a bad husband and bad father.  On the other hand you can be "fair" to yourself (as a good man and a good father) and your children.  Forget about pleasing your wife.  You've already stood up and said No to moving to more expensive and unaffordable housing just so she can feel better for awhile.

Your priority is (1) yourself and (2) your parenting.  Your kids deserve a better life than she would provide.  You know that.  But she's not listening.  (That's predictable.)  So instead focus upon gathering your documentation of the contrast between you and her so that it can be presented to the court.  You may need  Custody Evaluation.

Most of us fathers here encountered a surprise, we thought court would listen to us but at best it just viewed us as two bickering parents.  (And in my case, in a brief half hour without my input the magistrate handed her a temp order with full temp custody and majority time - yes, despite in another court she had a pending case against her of Threat of DV.)  That was 18 years ago, but it was clear that mothers in my area got default preferential treatment.  It seemed the process wasn't "why should dad get the kids?" but rather "why shouldn't mother get the kids?"  More or less, she was deferred to as parent for the child but I was expected to provide $$$ support as the one with deep money pockets.  Like I was an afterthought to the family unit.)

Your priority is (1) yourself and (2) your parenting.  At this point, with her actively painting you as virtually Mr Evil Personified rather than as a trusted spouse, I'm inclined to think you ought to ask your counselor why you should even want her back.)

EDIT:  If you must care that much for a sabotaging, obstructing and disparaging spouse, then at least focus FIRST on yourself, your parenting and your children, then if there is anything left over you can ponder how she can fit in.  You shouldn't be nasty but neither should you let her sabotage you.

I agree.  Just need to hear it sometimes.

I ended up hiring the high end attorney based on a recommendation.   As far as the differences all I really have are about 5 video clips showing her raging hard on the kids, and her Accusations about me being an alcohol abuser and wasting money.   As far as wasting money,  that was her not me and will come out.  I have 0 criminal record or health issues from drinking but she came home and secretly recorded me watching football and socially drinking with friends.  Nothing wild and crazy, just a bunch of middle aged guys sitting on a couch watching football with beer in hand.  Don't know how much that will prove. 

Any advice on how to get my attorney to understand the most stable environment is with me?

[ForeverDad]

It certainly sounds like she has no real "proof" of anything bad about you.

Remember that court's often ignore vague "he always..." or "she always..." as hearsay since supporting details, documentation or witnesses are missing.

My divorce took 2 years and I was in and out of court for another 6 years.  It was only toward the end that I testified and played recordings of my ex.  I was required to testify where and approximately when I made the recordings.  I was allowed to consult my journals to refresh my memory... and No her lawyers were unable to browse my journals/logs, they remained mine and private.

Do not expect for court to listen or watch what you have, at least not at first, not unless the conflict continues endlessly.  Perhaps an evaluator or social services may do that?

Be the parent with practical solutions, not the one always creating the conflict.  Eventually the court should notice that.  Note that I did not say you have to make concessions endlessly or sell yourself short, just propose practical (even if too hopeful) solutions.

Not sure why your lawyer doesn't understand you.  I understand he may not believe you - you don't want a lawyer who gets emotionally involved - but he ought to at least support you over time.  I recall in my divorce, I was almost a year into the process when the court's "parenting investigator" stated she was not licensed to recommend custody, hint, hint, and so she said I should start a Custody Evaluation, an in-depth examination of the family including Psych Evals and then closely determining how the children are impacted by each parent's parenting.  My lawyer had worked with me for months but even he warned me - a reasonably normal parent - that the CE could go against me.  I was a bit stunned since by then he knew me.  No surprise, a half year later the initial report stated "Mother can't share 'her' child but Father can."  Beware that some Custody Evaluators want to write virtual books filled with charts and costing $10-20K, and that was 15 years ago.  My CE was a child psychologist that my lawyer said was trusted implicitly by the court, he charged under $4K and the initial report was about 11 pages.

[mikejones75093]

It certainly sounds like she has no real "proof" of anything bad about you.

Remember that court's often ignore vague "he always..." or "she always..." as hearsay since supporting details, documentation or witnesses are missing.

My divorce took 2 years and I was in and out of court for another 6 years.  It was only toward the end that I testified and played recordings of my ex.  I was required to testify where and approximately when I made the recordings.  I was allowed to consult my journals to refresh my memory... and No her lawyers were unable to browse my journals/logs, they remained mine and private.

Do not expect for court to listen or watch what you have, at least not at first, not unless the conflict continues endlessly.  Perhaps an evaluator or social services may do that?

Be the parent with practical solutions, not the one always creating the conflict.  Eventually the court should notice that.  Note that I did not say you have to make concessions endlessly or sell yourself short, just propose practical (even if too hopeful) solutions.

Not sure why your lawyer doesn't understand you.  I understand he may not believe you - you don't want a lawyer who gets emotionally involved - but he ought to at least support you over time.  I recall in my divorce, I was almost a year into the process when the court's "parenting investigator" stated she was not licensed to recommend custody, hint, hint, and so she said I should start a Custody Evaluation, an in-depth examination of the family including Psych Evals and then closely determining how the children are impacted by each parent's parenting.  My lawyer had worked with me for months but even he warned me - a reasonably normal parent - that the CE could go against me.  I was a bit stunned since by then he knew me.  No surprise, a half year later the initial report stated "Mother can't share 'her' child but Father can."  Beware that some Custody Evaluators want to write virtual books filled with charts and costing $10-20K, and that was 15 years ago.  My CE was a child psychologist that my lawyer said was trusted implicitly by the court, he charged under $4K and the initial report was about 11 pages.

That sounds horrible.   She's low on money and wants to keep it cheap, but it always depends on her mood at the time.  3 weeks ago she told me to hire an attorney to draft a decree and she would sign it, and now it's opposite.

Hopefully she mediates but once she hears I want to be primary she'll lose it.

I have a few intense clips of her yelling and throwing things but I don't know it's enough to be primary over a mom.  I'm also hoping once she has nothing on these allegations that her attorney's talk some sense into her.

Yours sounds like it was intense.  Hopefully it doesn't go like that.

[SinisterComplex]

Just remember to document, document, document my friend. Additionally, moving forward in your interactions focus on being firm and indifferent. Now it is a game of who can keep their composure and not make mistakes.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[ForeverDad]

Most divorces here take many months or sometimes even a year or two.  My impression is most family courts are jammed with cases and progress in a case is slow.  You're assigned a time slot for a hearing, often just a half hour, and it may be scheduled for an appearance in a month or two.  Judges & lawyers are used to the slow page.  For you it's your life and parenting at stake, for them it's just another day at work.  My divorce had about a dozen hearings, it was a two year case.  Then my ex kept causing problems and we were in and out of court for another few years with incremental improvements.

So be prepared for a slow pace.  However, beware with being unprepared for the temp order hearing.  Warning: Get the best (or least bad) temp order because it may be a long time  before it gets fixed.  Mine had a bad start (judge defaulted to preference for mother) and didn't get fixed until the final decree two years later.

Bad: As dad, my 2 years with temp orders left me stuck with no temp custody and alternate weekends.

Good: Eventually I ended up with full legal custody and majority time during the school year, summers were equal time.  My ex had caused a lot of continuing conflict.

Summary of my process, no cooperation from ex:

• Initial hearing... rubber stamped temp hearing for temp order.
• Mediation... these are attempts, we try but nearly all of us can't negotiate with an unreasonable ex so it usually fails and we go back to court.
• Parenting Investigation by court social worker who is not licensed for custody matters.
• Custody Evaluation which can take months and $$$.
• Judge & lawyer discuss CE report.
• Settlement conference (mine failed in 5 minutes)
• Trial day (full day) scheduled for 4 months later
• Trial Day - ex surprised me, ready to negotiate

[mikejones75093]

Just remember to document, document, document my friend. Additionally, moving forward in your interactions focus on being firm and indifferent. Now it is a game of who can keep their composure and not make mistakes.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

How do you document?  Just write down what she does bad or actually what we do daily?

[mikejones75093]

Most divorces here take many months or sometimes even a year or two.  My impression is most family courts are jammed with cases and progress in a case is slow.  You're assigned a time slot for a hearing, often just a half hour, and it may be scheduled for an appearance in a month or two.  Judges & lawyers are used to the slow page.  For you it's your life and parenting at stake, for them it's just another day at work.  My divorce had about a dozen hearings, it was a two year case.  Then my ex kept causing problems and we were in and out of court for another few years with incremental improvements.

So be prepared for a slow pace.  However, beware with being unprepared for the temp order hearing.  Warning: Get the best (or least bad) temp order because it may be a long time  before it gets fixed.  Mine had a bad start (judge defaulted to preference for mother) and didn't get fixed until the final decree two years later.

Bad: As dad, my 2 years with temp orders left me stuck with no temp custody and alternate weekends.

Good: Eventually I ended up with full legal custody and majority time during the school year, summers were equal time.  My ex had caused a lot of continuing conflict.

Summary of my process, no cooperation from ex:

• Initial hearing... rubber stamped temp hearing for temp order.
• Mediation... these are attempts, we try but nearly all of us can't negotiate with an unreasonable ex so it usually fails and we go back to court.
• Parenting Investigation by court social worker who is not licensed for custody matters.
• Custody Evaluation which can take months and $$$.
• Judge & lawyer discuss CE report.
• Settlement conference (mine failed in 5 minutes)
• Trial day (full day) scheduled for 4 months later
• Trial Day - ex surprised me, ready to negotiate

She's trying to move quick so hopefully she will negotiate.   

[Notwendy]

I think there's a shock to seeing someone you are close to say such things in order to gain the advantage. What you see- her telling people that you are an alcoholic is an example of that, as well as using your marriage as a barganing chip to get a new house.

I don't know how to explain it. I think at some level it's doing whatever they want to do to get what they want in the moment- and not having the same boundaries as expected.

I think you are getting good advice from people who have been through divorce with a BPD spouse. 

A house is only what a family makes of it. We moved several times but I am not attached to any houses we lived in. I don't know what concessions you may have to make but IMHO, your time with your kids is the priority. Keeping the same school district and their friends is more of a contribution to their stability than a house, I think.

Your (ex) wife's relationship with the kids might change too and so might her interest in custody. Young children are compliant.  Not so much adolescents who may talk back to a BPD parent. But your kids will need you as a parent just as much at that age too- and beyond that age. I

[ForeverDad]

She's trying to move quick so hopefully she will negotiate.

Be aware that her version of negotiation may be that you capitulate to everything she wants.  That is why I stated that for most of us our ordered mediation failed, the stbEx was just simply too entitled and not realistic.  Later on, once she realizes that court is The Real Authority most of us did reach settlements, not all that great, but certainly much better than the initial mediation attempts.  In my case, my mediation failed as expected at the start of my divorce process but 18 months later we did eventually settle - on Trial Day.

Notwendy is right, a house is just a house.  In the grand scheme of life a house rates far lower than parenting.  Home is wherever you live.

However you've already mentioned that selling the house and buying another is financially sabotaging since the prices and interest rates have risen so much.

If you do negotiate a way to have separate homes, try to do so in such a way that it doesn't sabotage you later.  For example, try to be the one to keep the house since if she later lets you have the kids more on her time, then you won't be elsewhere and she sitting alone doing whatever in the house.  (Besides she's already hating the house and wanting to move elsewhere.)  Be smart too about deeds and mortgages; you don't want her to have control while you're stuck paying for her life and things.

There is a variety of ways to accumulate documentation.  It must have sufficient details such as time, locations, witnesses, etc.  I used 100 page annual appointment books with a week on each turned page.  I still have a stack of them.  Or use a calendar or Google calendar (not shared with stbEx!) or other form of journal.  It's yours, it's private and confidential, your stbEx has no right to demand it.  I also recorded incidents with voice recordings (before smart phones) but court and lawyers didn't care for them until years later they realized she would never stop causing conflict.  I also had numerous allegations to doctors, hospitals, count deputies, children's agencies, etc, all of which were either closed as "unsubstantiated" or merely logged.  I would go to the local children's hospital just before a scheduled hearing to get copies of the latest accusations.  I think I was supposed to pay but the staff had such pained expressions, I was a regular there for a while.

[mikejones75093]

Be aware that her version of negotiation may be that you capitulate to everything she wants.  That is why I stated that for most of us our ordered mediation failed, the stbEx was just simply too entitled and not realistic.  Later on, once she realizes that court is The Real Authority most of us did reach settlements, not all that great, but certainly much better than the initial mediation attempts.  In my case, my mediation failed as expected at the start of my divorce process but 18 months later we did eventually settle - on Trial Day.

Notwendy is right, a house is just a house.  In the grand scheme of life a house rates far lower than parenting.  Home is wherever you live.

However you've already mentioned that selling the house and buying another is financially sabotaging since the prices and interest rates have risen so much.

If you do negotiate a way to have separate homes, try to do so in such a way that it doesn't sabotage you later.  For example, try to be the one to keep the house since if she later lets you have the kids more on her time, then you won't be elsewhere and she sitting alone doing whatever in the house.  (Besides she's already hating the house and wanting to move elsewhere.)  Be smart too about deeds and mortgages; you don't want her to have control while you're stuck paying for her life and things.

There is a variety of ways to accumulate documentation.  It must have sufficient details such as time, locations, witnesses, etc.  I used 100 page annual appointment books with a week on each turned page.  I still have a stack of them.  Or use a calendar or Google calendar (not shared with stbEx!) or other form of journal.  It's yours, it's private and confidential, your stbEx has no right to demand it.  I also recorded incidents with voice recordings (before smart phones) but court and lawyers didn't care for them until years later they realized she would never stop causing conflict.  I also had numerous allegations to doctors, hospitals, count deputies, children's agencies, etc, all of which were either closed as "unsubstantiated" or merely logged.  I would go to the local children's hospital just before a scheduled hearing to get copies of the latest accusations.  I think I was supposed to pay but the staff had such pained expressions, I was a regular there for a while.

She told her attorney i came home drunk last night.  They are telling her to take all the kids and leave.  I'm staying calm outside but inside I'm ripping my hair out.  This is just dirty.  I can't even believe she's playing a dirty game like this.  I don't even know how to handle this.  I just hope somebody has a clear head when there is no proof only her saying it.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother will say whatever it takes to get what she wants. There is no way to know what kinds of things she has told people about me, as most of them aren't shared with me.

And she'd complain about my father and other people to me as well.

I think what is shocking is just how far they take this. Most of us would not say these things about other people, and also how does she come up with this stuff?

I am sorry this is happening to you, but now that you know what she is capable of, you can enlist your lawyer. My guess is that the courts have seen false accusations in divorces and there must be some way to address them.

I know it hurts though. To have good intentions and have them so twisted into something else. It also impacts relationships. I didn't know what to say to the people my mother has painted me black to. For me, the best I could do is create cognitive dissonance and be calm and cordial so they'd see the difference. Your wife may be trying to get you to lose your cool in front of other people. Stay calm.

Your relationship with your children is for the long run. They may not be aware of their mother's dysfunction now, but they can see it for themselves as they get older. I think it would help them to have counseling to have someone objective to talk to.

Their mother might say whatever she wants about you but they will, over time, see that when they are with you, it's calm and logical. One thing I did notice is that- when we were with Dad and my mother was not around, it was different. Dad was relaxed and more "himself". When my mother was around too, her feelings and emotions seemed to be the focus.

I don't know why my mother lies like this. Is she amoral or just so driven to get what she wants that she will do whatever it takes? I don't think I can know this but I know she will do that. You now know this too and can expect it.


 

[ForeverDad]

She told her attorney i came home drunk last night.  They are telling her to take all the kids and leave.  I'm staying calm outside but inside I'm ripping my hair out.  This is just dirty.  I can't even believe she's playing a dirty game like this.

So many of us here were shocked when we first experienced the spouse's manipulations to transform reality, to actively sabotage us and our reputation.

Needless to say, this is a common claim to make us look bad in a divorce or custody dispute.  My ex essentially ignored how bad she looked and just kept trying to find things to claim I looked worse than her.

You will have to be proactive to protect yourself now that you know one way your spouse - the person who should be closest to you - is trying to make you look bad.

It might be best to limit your drinking of alcoholic beverages.  Better yet, during this critical time, ponder whether to avoid alcohol entirely.

Are there any neighbors or friends you can visit with just before you go home, who could later be witnesses you hadn't been drinking or inebriated?

If or when this may end up in a legal scenario, understand that a lot of the "he always..." or "she always..." allegations are simply too vague (and without details of independent substantiation) and typically end up being ignored as hearsay.

Be aware that if this tactic doesn't work, she's likely to add other types of allegations.  In my own separation and divorce, my stbEx at first made weak allegations - the first was that our preschooler fell off his bike - but progressively made more extreme claims to the point of even insinuating sexual child abuse allegations.  Though shocking, fortunately the agencies determined there was no substance to her "my preschooler told me..." stories.

[Notwendy]

I agree with FD on the alcohol. Make it part of the cognitive dissonance. She can accuse you of anything but don't have it in the house, don't drink it, don't have bottles in the recycle bin. No evidence is no evidence.

My father's sister was the caretaker for her husband who had pain medicine for an injury. BPD mother told me that she was "using her husband's medicine for herself". I didn't believe her but to someone else who didn't know her, it might be plausible- she did have it.

The lies sometimes incluse possible truths- which leads to doubt and questioning.

Best to not even leave the possibility of an accusation being questioned.

[mikejones75093]

Be aware that her version of negotiation may be that you capitulate to everything she wants.  That is why I stated that for most of us our ordered mediation failed, the stbEx was just simply too entitled and not realistic.  Later on, once she realizes that court is The Real Authority most of us did reach settlements, not all that great, but certainly much better than the initial mediation attempts.  In my case, my mediation failed as expected at the start of my divorce process but 18 months later we did eventually settle - on Trial Day.

Notwendy is right, a house is just a house.  In the grand scheme of life a house rates far lower than parenting.  Home is wherever you live.

However you've already mentioned that selling the house and buying another is financially sabotaging since the prices and interest rates have risen so much.

If you do negotiate a way to have separate homes, try to do so in such a way that it doesn't sabotage you later.  For example, try to be the one to keep the house since if she later lets you have the kids more on her time, then you won't be elsewhere and she sitting alone doing whatever in the house.  (Besides she's already hating the house and wanting to move elsewhere.)  Be smart too about deeds and mortgages; you don't want her to have control while you're stuck paying for her life and things.

There is a variety of ways to accumulate documentation.  It must have sufficient details such as time, locations, witnesses, etc.  I used 100 page annual appointment books with a week on each turned page.  I still have a stack of them.  Or use a calendar or Google calendar (not shared with stbEx!) or other form of journal.  It's yours, it's private and confidential, your stbEx has no right to demand it.  I also recorded incidents with voice recordings (before smart phones) but court and lawyers didn't care for them until years later they realized she would never stop causing conflict.  I also had numerous allegations to doctors, hospitals, count deputies, children's agencies, etc, all of which were either closed as "unsubstantiated" or merely logged.  I would go to the local children's hospital just before a scheduled hearing to get copies of the latest accusations.  I think I was supposed to pay but the staff had such pained expressions, I was a regular there for a while.

Let me ask you this... she thinks we have more money than we do.  She's keeping herself busy shopping for houses.  She works full time and makes decent money, but not enough to afford her lifestyle.   Once she realizes what she's really going to get, that now she has to pay bills and is really underwater, and will never qualify to purchase, what kind of crap can I expect to deal with?

[Notwendy]

All you owe her is what the courts decide. Whatever she does is not your problem to solve. 

You don't want it to impact the kids though. I have read stories of kids going to one parent's house with no clothes or supplies packed and then taking them back to the other parent's house if they need them- if he other parent isn't buying them. It may be that you spend more on clothes, or shoes but if the kids need them, then they do. I don't know if this would happen with her or not.

We were concerned how BPD mother would manage without my father when he passed. She did a lot better than we expected. You may also be concerned about how your wife would manage. I think she is probably more resourceful than you might expect.

My guess is if my parents had divorced when my mother was younger, she probably would have married someone else. She can be very charming and likeable when she wants to be, and I think she would have found someone. It may be that your wife remarries someone and they would have their income combined. She still has BPD though, and that will influence her behavior with another person too.

[SaltyDawg]

How do you document?  Just write down what she does bad or actually what we do daily?

I agree with others.  You need to keep your cool.  Do not drink alcohol, if you hang with your friends, stick with soda or other non-alcoholic drinks.

DO NOT LOSE YOUR TEMPER no matter what you do.  Be on best behavior.  Keep in mind 'anything you say or do can be used against you in a court'.

The books that I mentioned a few days ago talks about this in detail.

I will share what I do and have done.  I use my cell phone to take videos.  My wife threatened to make false allegations of child abuse.  You wife has already signalled she is willing to make false statements now, it can only get worse, much worse.  If it has been mentioned by her, she will be sure to do it.

If I were in your shoes, I would get a body camera, a huge hard drive (to transfer the files to make sure that the camera doesn't fill up with video) and a backup hard drive too - anything that have recorded against her (rages, false accusations) upload those to a cloud drive too (puts a time/date stamp on the time of upload).  That way any statement that your stbxw makes up, you can pull up the date and time and share it as a false statement as the video will disprove it should it need to be escalated - if your wife's attorney realizes that your wife is full of :poop: in her allegations, he/she will likely encourage your wife to a less damaging agreement for you.

I personally, have adapted a more covert method of using my cell phone, but it drains the battery down really quickly (I posted specifics about a year ago).  I have a 14 TB drive, sort it by date/time, and description.  I primarily used it to document her bad behavior.  Just be mindful, a camera documents everything you do in addition to them, so make sure you are on best behavior all of the time, or it could be used against you.

If you use a cell phone, you may want to consider wiretapping laws (my pwBPD taunted me to record (I have that specific taunt recorded on more than one occasion), so I have [unintended by her] permission to record by her.  A body camera, is overt, so cannot secretly record (unless it is hidden), less issues here, but you still should not record in spaces where there is an expectation of privacy (bathroom, etc.).  Even if you do get accused, use the 'public safety exemption' (especially if she is violent).

The only recent case of wiretapping laws being persecuted is Linda Tripp for the president Bill Clinton - Monica Lewinsky scandal, and she only got her hands proverbially slapped.

Other more conventional ways to document...

Journaling.

Paper journals - make sure it is a bound book, use indelible ink, any errors use a single line (so it is legible - try to limit to spelling/grammar errors).  Use the aforementioned recording to be specific as possible with your statements (even if you don't disclose the existence of these recordings, and if they come to light, they will corroborate each other.  This could be a paper calendar, but you have limited space for each day.  Hard to make a duplicate, unless you photograph each page as you complete them with your cell phone.  Consider e-mailing yourself these photographs each day.

Electronic - use a free account (hotmail/gmail/outlook), these have built in security features intended for pedophiles; however, this is to your advantage, it will document IP address (your location, unless using a VPN), date and time.  Send yourself a daily synopsis to a dedicated account journaling your specific good behaviors (what you do with and for the children - school, medical appointments, attend sports/plays/etc. and other good things you do for her too, it will reveal holes in her false narrative), and of course her bad behaviors too (false narratives/accusations, rages, violence (if applicable).  Be specific as you possibly can, dates/times/locations.

You can also document on an electronic calendar; however, it is easier to add/edit without date/time stamps on that.

Make sure your google timeline is turned on, and your location on your phone is turned on (for Android, you may have to lookup for iPhones for something similar).  This will document when and where you have been.  Consider using a higher accuracy app like life360 (available for both platforms). 

It is going to take a lot of work, but considering the potential losses that are involved, do everything you can in order to protect yourself even if you use only 1% of what you have documented.  You are your own best advocate, so watch out for your best interests and for your children too.

The idea is to level the playing field, she is fighting unfair, simply call her out on where she is cheating, and remove the teeth from that.  A judge will likely not want to hear much about it, so, flag the most egregious ones, discuss it with your attorney, pick and choose which ones to use for your defense and/or offense in this matter.  The idea is to shut down your wife's attorney and convince him/her how much of a liar she is, so he/she won't want to put their professional on the reputation for her baseless accusations.

My wife eventually figured out I recorded her (after I had multiple admissions for making false statements, and recording bad behaviors), it is a huge deterrent for her.  I have not yet had to use these recordings, and I don't think I will.  She asked me to delete them, I refused.

Hope this helps.

[ForeverDad]

DO NOT LOSE YOUR TEMPER no matter what you do.  Be on best behavior.  Keep in mind 'anything you say or do can be used against you in a court'.

You cannot risk speaking in a way that could be cast as a threat or aggressive.  You don't want to give even a slight basis to let her pose as a victim.  A practical perspective is to imagine the court is looking over your shoulder 24/7.

My lawyer told me his first job upon being hired was to sit on his clients - stop them from talking without his advice - since attempts to explain incidents might get a person in trouble.  Your lawyer can let you know what to say and when.  When questioned, pause and glance to your lawyer who might want you to decline to answer.  Yes, as the movies depict, you do have a right to remain silent.  If it's a Yes or No question, "keep it simple stupid" (KISS), avoid saying more in case it makes more work (and expense) for your attorney to fix.

...a huge hard drive (to transfer the files to make sure that the camera doesn't fill up with video) and a backup hard drive too - anything that have recorded against her (rages, false accusations) upload those to a cloud drive too (puts a time/date stamp on the time of upload)...

An obvious rule is to store your documentation and backups in a place or places where your spouse has no physical or electronic access.  Sorry, a locked briefcase cannot defeat a determined stbEx.

If your spouse has or can guess your passwords, then it's an unsafe place.

It is going to take a lot of work, but considering the potential losses that are involved, do everything you can in order to protect yourself even if you use only 1% of what you have documented.  You are your own best advocate, so watch out for your best interests and for your children too.

I had eight years in and out of family court.  My logs and notes were invaluable.  My recordings helped refresh my memory but only at one (two day!) hearing were 10 phone recordings used.  Except for that one time my court had no time for lengthy hearings.  However, they were quite helpful with the professionals around the court (police, evaluators, child protection investigators, etc).

She asked me to delete them, I refused.

I can't count the times she demanded I delete what I had.  I complied at first but eventually learned to keep hidden backups.

[mikejones75093]

I'm not really concerned with how she survives after it's over, I'm worried about her emotional state and the actions she will take going through the process.

At first she didn't want any money, no child support, split time with kids even.  Then it went to I want to take everything from you and she takes the kids full time, even sending messages to my friends encouraging them not to support me.

Her financial and emotional intelligence are of a child.  I'm concerned once everything comes out that she can't accomplish her "fresh start for peace in her life" goals she's going to flip out or try and manipulate me in some way.

Trying to cover all angles and make sure I'm ready.

[Notwendy]

I'm not really concerned with how she survives after it's over, I'm worried about her emotional state and the actions she will take going through the process.

Her financial and emotional intelligence are of a child.  I'm concerned once everything comes out that she can't accomplish her "fresh start for peace in her life" goals she's going to flip out or try and manipulate me in some way.

I understand and am going through something similar with my BPD mother. Dad planned well for their retirement years and she is spending money recklessly.

She is elderly and in assisted living. It's like giving a child a bank account and letting them loose in a toy store. She has no concept of being conservative with money and we can not reason with her.

Your wife may flip out but she also might find another husband before that happens.

[mikejones75093]

I understand and am going through something similar with my BPD mother. Dad planned well for their retirement years and she is spending money recklessly.

She is elderly and in assisted living. It's like giving a child a bank account and letting them loose in a toy store. She has no concept of being conservative with money and we can not reason with her.

Your wife may flip out but she also might find another husband before that happens.

You're right.  That's part of my issue.  Going back through everything with my counselor
I feel like maybe i was the chump she moved on quick.  It's amazing the mirroring i can see when i look back.  We went on 2 dates and moved in together. It was perfect, or so I thought.

 What kind of guy is she going to have to find that will move in and help with her bills with all these kids.  kids with 2 different dads.  Makes me worry who will be around my daughters.

[Notwendy]

Who we attract and who is attracted to us is very complicated. There are aspects of who you are and who she is that played a part in it. Some of this is not even conscious and some of it is boundaries. Someone else may have felt uncomfortable with moving in so fast, but you didn't. It's not a criticism of you to have done that- it's just a part of how we are. It also is influenced by our experiences in our families of origin.

I understand the concern about who is around your daughters. Although my parents stayed together, they had friends and neighbors and one thing I noticed is that my mother attracts certain types of people- both men and women. If they erred it was to the side of being empathetic and helpful. The combination of caretaker type and BPD seems to be a more longer lasting one.

 I don't think my mother would fit well with an abusive person. I understand the worry about any other person in the house. One can't be too careful. But it if were my mother, that person would likely be a caretaker type and while it may appear she is happier with him at first- the same dysfunction would occurr in that relationship.

Whoever it is, she might paint you black to him but it's good if you get to know the hypothetical new guy well if he's going to be around your daughters.

[Notwendy]

Another possibily if she found someone "new" would be to lose interest in parenting and then the girls would be with you.

[ForeverDad]

What kind of guy is she going to have to find that will move in and help with her bills with all these kids.  kids with 2 different dads.  Makes me worry who will be around my daughters.

Two different dads... are you one of the two dads, or do her kids have two dads other than you?

Does she get child support for the kids that aren't yours?  If so then that part of her support would continue regardless of her married state.

[mikejones75093]

Two different dads... are you one of the two dads, or do her kids have two dads other than you?

Does she get child support for the kids that aren't yours?  If so then that part of her support would continue regardless of her married state.

I have an older step son.  He's 15.  My kids are 6 and younger.  She doesn't get child support.  So me and another guy. 

She alienates his dad bad in front of him.  I was under the impression he was a complete piece of garbage.  Finally met him and what do you know, he's a regular guy.  It's been 15 years since they have been apart and she still HATES him, her words.   He doesn't do anything bad now, they don't even talk.  She thinks he was lazy and didn't work as hard as her back when she first had the kid.

Looking back through the years I'm just in shock about how much manipulation she put me through and I didn't even notice.

[mikejones75093]

Well the attorney I hired is expensive and came highly recommended.   $500 an hour just to consult.  Really upsetting I am going to pay all this money to unwind my marriage.

We filed an answer and a counter suit.  Asking joint custody but me primary conservator.   She's going to be real upset when she sees this.  Also asking to protect my separate property,  also going to make her very upset.

My buddy asked me last week if I wanted her back.  Issue is, even if I do, she's making terrible real life decisions with spending that are too dangerous.  Unless she.completely changes this has to happen.   Even then sometimes I hope she comes around.

She has a realtor showing her all these high end houses. She's completely oblivious she won't qualify or even be able to afford.  We have gone over this a lot.  Is she delusional?  She thinks her payment will only be $2500 a month, more like $5k in reality.

She's acting happy, like everything is great and she's an independent woman accomplishing all kind ls of goals.

I am praying this divorce and custody battle go my way.  She has accused me of all kinds of things that are not true so she can't prove.  A few months ago I installed a camera in my living room and have clips of her screaming and throwing things at the kids, she doesn't know I have them.

At the end of the day I think this is 1 big scam to manipulate me and she doesn't think I will go through with it.  Don't know how she can't act happy like everything is amazing all the time.

[SaltyDawg]

MikeJones,

Thank you for sharing an update.  I am following your progress (just in case I have to do the same at some point in time).


We filed an answer and a counter suit.  Asking joint custody but me primary conservator.   She's going to be real upset when she sees this.  Also asking to protect my separate property,  also going to make her very upset.

I think that is a wise move; however, you mentioned a video clip below, you may want to ask for more.


My buddy asked me last week if I wanted her back.  Issue is, even if I do, she's making terrible real life decisions with spending that are too dangerous.  Unless she.completely changes this has to happen.   Even then sometimes I hope she comes around.

It looks like you are realistic about your expectations being mindful that past behaviors will indicate future ones.  It is obvious that you still love and care for her deeply; however, you cannot tolerate her behaviors if they do not change.


She has a realtor showing her all these high end houses. She's completely oblivious she won't qualify or even be able to afford.  We have gone over this a lot.  Is she delusional?  She thinks her payment will only be $2500 a month, more like $5k in reality.

Do you really need an answer to your rhetorical question?


I am praying this divorce and custody battle go my way.  She has accused me of all kinds of things that are not true so she can't prove.  A few months ago I installed a camera in my living room and have clips of her screaming and throwing things at the kids, she doesn't know I have them.

This one is a red flag for me and prompted me to respond to your thread.  Once you found out the contents of these video clips, did you share it with CPS (child protective services)?  Does your attorney know about these video clips?  If not, you need to let him know as soon as you can.  There are wire-tapping laws (most likely a slap on the wrist - not unlike a speeding ticket) and vary from location to location.  Make sure you have backup copies of these videos, as they will definitely work to your advantage in your divorce.  However, if you failed to report it to CPS in a timely manner, it could raise questions as to why you didn't - your attorney can guide you on this.


At the end of the day I think this is 1 big scam to manipulate me and she doesn't think I will go through with it.  Don't know how she can't act happy like everything is amazing all the time.

You asked a rhetorical question -- she is irrationally delusional.

Take care with self-care.

[Notwendy]

With my elderly BPD mother, nobody has succeeded in reasoning with her about money. My father planned well for their retirement and she has spent almost all of her savings and has no interest in slowing her spending down. We are concerned she is putting herself in financial jeapoardy.

She's still considered to be "legally competent" and so we can't intervene. However, I also consulted a $500 an hour attorney that I paid for to help me with understanding when and if I could intervene, and to discuss elder law with regards to her situation. I think it was money well spent.

Divorce is costly but being married to someone who doesn't comprehend why it's important to budget is expensive too.

[mikejones75093]

MikeJones,

Thank you for sharing an update.  I am following your progress (just in case I have to do the same at some point in time).


We filed an answer and a counter suit.  Asking joint custody but me primary conservator.   She's going to be real upset when she sees this.  Also asking to protect my separate property,  also going to make her very upset.

I think that is a wise move; however, you mentioned a video clip below, you may want to ask for more.


My buddy asked me last week if I wanted her back.  Issue is, even if I do, she's making terrible real life decisions with spending that are too dangerous.  Unless she.completely changes this has to happen.   Even then sometimes I hope she comes around.

It looks like you are realistic about your expectations being mindful that past behaviors will indicate future ones.  It is obvious that you still love and care for her deeply; however, you cannot tolerate her behaviors if they do not change.


She has a realtor showing her all these high end houses. She's completely oblivious she won't qualify or even be able to afford.  We have gone over this a lot.  Is she delusional?  She thinks her payment will only be $2500 a month, more like $5k in reality.

Do you really need an answer to your rhetorical question?


I am praying this divorce and custody battle go my way.  She has accused me of all kinds of things that are not true so she can't prove.  A few months ago I installed a camera in my living room and have clips of her screaming and throwing things at the kids, she doesn't know I have them.

This one is a red flag for me and prompted me to respond to your thread.  Once you found out the contents of these video clips, did you share it with CPS (child protective services)?  Does your attorney know about these video clips?  If not, you need to let him know as soon as you can.  There are wire-tapping laws (most likely a slap on the wrist - not unlike a speeding ticket) and vary from location to location.  Make sure you have backup copies of these videos, as they will definitely work to your advantage in your divorce.  However, if you failed to report it to CPS in a timely manner, it could raise questions as to why you didn't - your attorney can guide you on this.


At the end of the day I think this is 1 big scam to manipulate me and she doesn't think I will go through with it.  Don't know how she can't act happy like everything is amazing all the time.

You asked a rhetorical question -- she is irrationally delusional.

Take care with self-care.

It all around is just a terrible situation.   Yes my attorney knows about the video clips.  It was one of those indoor nest cams in plain sight.  She knew it was there.  Over time think she just forgot about it. Told her it was to watch a babysitter.  Hopefully that isn't illegal.

My attorney said we would posture.  It's very hard to get sole custody so I don't think a judge would do that. 

Yes I know she's delusional but I never expected anything like this.  Was hoping like the past she would just get over it and move on to something else, but she's been in a downward spiral for 5 months now.  She's actually forcing my hand.  She filed and won't end it.  I'm still going to counseling and since I'm normal I'm grieving.   

All this divorce and moving shopping for houses is keeping her busy and filling her empty void.  When it all collapses I have no clue what she will do.  When all these things she's accused me of are false Hopefully her attorney tells her.  At that point she might start disliking her attorney.  If you're not with her you're against her.  Maybe her true colors will come out and it will all work out for me and the kids.

[SaltyDawg]

My attorney said we would posture.  It's very hard to get sole custody so I don't think a judge would do that. 

I agree, you may still want to consider asking (posturing) for more, and then being the reasonable parent that you are 'compromise' to 50/50.  If you start at 50/50, how do you counter with a compromise that is less if she asks for more?

[ForeverDad]

SaltyDawg wrote about the concerns of uninformed recording.  That is something to keep in mind but in all my years here I don't recall anyone here suffering legal consequences.  However, I will make two points on the subject.

(1)  There were a couple cases when I recall the conflict was so high that the court ordered the parents not to record the children.  It's a reminder that kids shouldn't be put in the middle of adult conflicts nor unwisely pick sides.

What constitutes child abuse can vary between states.  In my state a child witnessing a parent being abusive is concerning but it becomes actionable when the child is the target.  In the final months before separation I had called CPS, saying my son witnessed my then-spouse ranting and raging at me but was told, "Call back if your child becomes a target."

(2)  Courts always state they have limited time, they have a clogged schedule.  In my case, I was in and out of court for some 8 years before, during and after my divorce case.  It was only in the very last hearing, where I had already gained full custody but was seeking majority time, that my lawyer presented 10 brief audio clips of my ex playing games with exchanges while disparaging me in the presence of our son.  The magistrate mentioned and condemned the "disparagement" a half dozen times in the written decision.

What court may decline to view or hear may dishearten you but often those are better used with the professionals who have influence or make recommendations for the court.  Also, your lawyer may feel such documentation ought to be hinted or some of it shared with the opposing counsel and lessen their aggressive allegations or demands.  (Many of us have had conflict post-relationship where the ex tries to make us look worse than the ex.)

My buddy asked me last week if I wanted her back.  Issue is, even if I do, she's making terrible real life decisions with spending that are too dangerous.  Unless she.completely changes this has to happen.   Even then sometimes I hope she comes around.

This reminds me of the time in court when we first separated.  I was on the stand being questioned by her attorney.  This excerpt was part of a post I made warning about some of the traps and pitfalls when I first encountered the legal cage matches.

My lawyer always reminded me that his first duty to his clients was to sit on them, figuratively, so they couldn't say something that could make his case more difficult.  So keep answers as brief as possible.  Don't volunteer information.  If your lawyer wants more detail, your lawyer will ask specific follow-up questions.

Beware of trick questions that make you look bad no matter how you answer... "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is a famous example.  Yes you did and stopped or No you didn't stop?

I recall I was on the stand and her lawyer asked, "Are you taller and heavier than your spouse?"  Of course I said Yes.  I knew his insinuation, that my spouse had basis to 'fear' me.  As I look back I should have added, "And we're both larger than our preschooler."

He continued, "Do you want her back?"  It was a trap, if I said Yes then he could allege I was a controller.  Fortunately I replied, "No, not the way she is."  He had to move on.

You can always ask the questioner to rephrase the question.  And it's okay to ask for a restroom break while you ponder how to answer a thorny question.  Too, pause before answering so you can look at your lawyer's expressions, perhaps give lawyer time to object or step in as needed.

[mikejones75093]

SaltyDawg wrote about the concerns of uninformed recording.  That is something to keep in mind but in all my years here I don't recall anyone here suffering legal consequences.  However, I will make two points on the subject.

(1)  There were a couple cases when I recall the conflict was so high that the court ordered the parents not to record the children.  It's a reminder that kids shouldn't be put in the middle of adult conflicts nor unwisely pick sides.

What constitutes child abuse can vary between states.  In my state a child witnessing a parent being abusive is concerning but it becomes actionable when the child is the target.  In the final months before separation I had called CPS, saying my son witnessed my then-spouse ranting and raging at me but was told, "Call back if your child becomes a target."

(2)  Courts always state they have limited time, they have a clogged schedule.  In my case, I was in and out of court for some 8 years before, during and after my divorce case.  It was only in the very last hearing, where I had already gained full custody but was seeking majority time, that my lawyer presented 10 brief audio clips of my ex playing games with exchanges while disparaging me in the presence of our son.  The magistrate mentioned and condemned the "disparagement" a half dozen times in the written decision.

What court may decline to view or hear may dishearten you but often those are better used with the professionals who have influence or make recommendations for the court.  Also, your lawyer may feel such documentation ought to be hinted or some of it shared with the opposing counsel and lessen their aggressive allegations or demands.  (Many of us have had conflict post-relationship where the ex tries to make us look worse than the ex.)

This reminds me of the time in court when we first separated.  I was on the stand being questioned by her attorney.  This excerpt was part of a post I made warning about some of the traps and pitfalls when I first encountered the legal cage matches.

Sounds horrible but I have to gear up.  She hired a fancy high end attorney.  If her attorney starts telling her that these accusations against me won't work, what are the chances she splits on the attorney?  I'm hoping if something like that happen she tanks emotionally and gives me everything I ask for.  She has 2 responses to me, just take everything and let me go,  and she's coming to take me down. 

[Notwendy]

It's hard to know. I just think of it as a ferris wheel. What goes up ( painted white) goes down ( painted black) and then up again.

[SaltyDawg]

Sounds horrible but I have to gear up.  She hired a fancy high end attorney.  If her attorney starts telling her that these accusations against me won't work, what are the chances she splits on the attorney?  I'm hoping if something like that happen she tanks emotionally and gives me everything I ask for.  She has 2 responses to me, just take everything and let me go,  and she's coming to take me down. 

Mike,

   Your guess is better than ours, as you know her better than we do.  What do you think she would do? 

   Hope/Pray for the Best, but plan for the worse.  Have all basis covered, so you know when and more importantly how to respond when she does something.  Come up with a list of questions here, and then approach your attorney for the best strategy.  Don't use your attorney for emotional $upport.

   Take care, with self-care.

SD

[mikejones75093]

She asked me for my email username and password.   Said if I didn't give it she would just have the court get it.  Accusing me of being deceitful for not letting her have it, said she tried to be amicable but it's not working,.and it's sad we can't have honest transparency.

Seems like she's stepping over a huge boundary.  Am I right?

[ForeverDad]

This is entitlement, demands, ultimatums, take your pick.

(Well I wonder whether she is offering you all her email accounts and passwords?  I know your answer already!)

Neither her lawyer nor family court will ask you for personal stuff like passwords.  It can ask for a lot but not that.  This is a civil matter anyway.

Just so you know, your journals and logs are private and confidential too.

Glad you're asking for clarity before caving to ultimatums.

Let me explain that if you're trying to repair a marriage, then yes both spouses would have to share appropriate information to restore trust to the relationship.  But if the marriage is ending, then ponder every request or demand as to whether it is asking for TMI (too much information).

The one thing you do share is parenting matters such as exchanges, kids' health, kids' appointments, etc.

Also, there will be times when some financial details will need to be disclosed, but that's for the lawyers to negotiate and guide.  One example is for the initial temp order where the court needs financial data from both spouses to plug into their formulas for child support and maybe spousal support.

[Notwendy]

No way! Sharing your email user name and password with someone who is not trustworthy- she could do anything with that. It's your own identity.

Her lawyer can attain any information pertinant to the divorce. Your personal correspondance is none of her business.

Also, what stops her from then changing your password and locking you out of your own email? Or sending correspondance as "you" to your contacts. You have already seen that she doesn't have boundaries. She could do anything with your email account.

[mikejones75093]

This is entitlement, demands, ultimatums, take your pick.

(Well I wonder whether she is offering you all her email accounts and passwords?  I know your answer already!)

Neither her lawyer nor family court will ask you for personal stuff like passwords.  It can ask for a lot but not that.  This is a civil matter anyway.

Just so you know, your journals and logs are private and confidential too.

Glad you're asking for clarity before caving to ultimatums.

Let me explain that if you're trying to repair a marriage, then yes both spouses would have to share appropriate information to restore trust to the relationship.  But if the marriage is ending, then ponder every request or demand as to whether it is asking for TMI (too much information).

The one thing you do share is parenting matters such as exchanges, kids' health, kids' appointments, etc.

Also, there will be times when some financial details will need to be disclosed, but that's for the lawyers to negotiate and guide.  One example is for the initial temp order where the court needs financial data from both spouses to plug into their formulas for child support and maybe spousal support.

So she's saying just because evidence is hidden or destroyed doesn't mean it didn't happen.  She wishes I would be honest with myself.  She's good at making me feel like a total piece of garbage.
She's making this out like I'm tony soprano or something.  Just a regular middle class family, don't know what she thinks shes going to find.  After all the accusations of hidden accounts and abuse are shown to be not true i hope somebody with a brain sees shes not working with a full deck.  In her head she thinks these are her kids not ours and shes going to take them away and put me on visitation.

[GaGrl]

All of her communications to you need to be put through a "reality filter" before you even allow what she says to affect you or before you respond.

You can create your own "reality filter" -- just a few questions. Is what she is asking/saying...

-- Legal?
-- Intrusive of my privacy/overstepping a boundary?
-- Something that should be handles by our lawyers?

What else might be a good filter? Doing this can keep you from immediately falling into her words.

[mikejones75093]

All of her communications to you need to be put through a "reality filter" before you even allow what she says to affect you or before you respond.

You can create your own "reality filter" -- just a few questions. Is what she is asking/saying...

-- Legal?
-- Intrusive of my privacy/overstepping a boundary?
-- Something that should be handles by our lawyers?

What else might be a good filter? Doing this can keep you from immediately falling into her words.

She's been making me feel like a piece of crap for a long time.  I'm pretty good at sorting her crap.  I know she was over stepping and saved it all.   It's just a gut punch.  They say divorce is one of the most stressful things in life but divorcing a bpd that is blaming and lying is just brutal. 

[ForeverDad]

After all the accusations of hidden accounts and abuse are shown to be not true i hope somebody with a brain sees shes not working with a full deck.  In her head she thinks these are her kids not ours and shes going to take them away and put me on visitation.

Court and most of the professionals involved in the divorce process will notice... but likely say little or nothing.  They see all sorts of bickering parents day in day out.  But they go home to their own families at the end of the day.  For them it's work, for you it's your life.  Don't feel bad that they have a different perspective.

Also, it will take time for them to discern you're the parent proposing solutions while your stbEx is the one creating conflict and mayhem.

My ex was defaulted to very preferential temp orders back in 2005-06.  They still followed the Tender Years Doctrine that mothers are always the best parents.  I got alternate weekends, an evening in between and child support.  As though the dilemma I faced was "why shouldn't mother get every advantage?"  Um, for the first few months of separation she was facing a Threat of DV charge.  That's when I found out that poor adult behavior has little impact on parenting aspects.

Before there was an order, she was able to do pretty much whatever she wanted and without consequences.  It's different now, there is a court order and both of you are expected to obey it.  Yes, at first she will get only admonitions but eventually she will face consequences for obstruction.  If she's not wealthy, then court is not likely to fine her.  As a mother to a young child she's very unlikely to face jail time either.  Fines or jail may be legal threats but probably unlikely.  Your goal should be to demonstrate to the court that you're a normal, stable, good parent wanting as much parenting time and authority as possible.  Hopefully over time you'll get (baby step) improvements to your order.  It's a marathon, not a sprint.

In my case in 30 minutes my ex got a favorable temporary order with temp custody and majority time.  It took me several years to get that fixed and now I have custody and majority time.  Still, her current minority time is still much better than what I had those first two years.  Sadly, court is not about fairness and justice, it's about law, case law, policy, procedures and history.

Expect the lawyers to tell you that you can't get custody.  They may think you're exaggerating, not knowing you or her.  They'll warn you courts are reluctant to make major changes to parenting without good reason to do so.  They may tell you that the court will flat out refuse to make major changes.  Doesn't matter, your good behaviors and her obstructive behaviors ought to make at least some difference.  After all, some improvement is better than none, right?  Maybe not enough to get custody now, but there's nothing wrong to state you know you would do better if you had custody and substantial parenting time.  I recall how my Custody Evaluator summed up our evaluation... "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can.  If Shared Parenting is attempted and fails, then father should have custody."  My CE saw ability (or willingness) to share as very important.  Hopefully your professionals will too.

The final decree set us as equals with shared custody and equal time.  A couple years and they saw basis to assign me custody.  A few more years and I was granted majority time during the school year due to her continued conflict and disparagement.

[mikejones75093]

Court and most of the professionals involved in the divorce process will notice... but likely say little or nothing.  They see all sorts of bickering parents day in day out.  But they go home to their own families at the end of the day.  For them it's work, for you it's your life.  Don't feel bad that they have a different perspective.

Also, it will take time for them to discern you're the parent proposing solutions while your stbEx is the one creating conflict and mayhem.

My ex was defaulted to very preferential temp orders back in 2005-06.  They still followed the Tender Years Doctrine that mothers are always the best parents.  I got alternate weekends, an evening in between and child support.  As though the dilemma I faced was "why shouldn't mother get every advantage?"  Um, for the first few months of separation she was facing a Threat of DV charge.  That's when I found out that poor adult behavior has little impact on parenting aspects.

The final decree set us as equals with shared custody and equal time.  A couple years and they saw basis to assign me custody.  A few more years and I was granted majority time during the school year due to her continued conflict and disparagement.

I just hope.somebody sees through her crap.  She has nothing on me, just a bunch of false allegations.  I actually have her texts and video clips saved.   

She's good looking and speaks well, so she's going to give some horror story about me like she has been over the years.  Half the time I'm scared to death she will win this thing being a good looking good speaking mom, and the other half I'm thinking how can they not see my side.

My attorney said judges normally can see through people that portray themselves as perfect and blame everything on the other parent.

She's going to look at places to rent tomorrow and is impulsive enough to sign a lease.  She thinks these are her kids and not ours so she is going to try and take them with her, and in her mind has every right to do so.

Already contacted my attorney.   About to get interesting.

[ForeverDad]

That she is actually searching for a rental resolves one concern I had, that she might reverse herself and decide to camp out in the inexpensive home that she's decided is no longer good for her... and boot you out. 

Typically we see the parent with issues refusing to give up the home.  (Actually "home" is wherever you live, not a specific structure.)

Let her go, though if she decides to pay a huge rent would she expect you to pay some of the cost?  Beware of co-signing for a long lease.

Once she has moved out, it would be good to position yourself as (orseek to be) the one with official "occupancy" in court documents.  That may reduce the risk of her moving back.

[mikejones75093]

That she is actually searching for a rental resolves one concern I had, that she might reverse herself and decide to camp out in the inexpensive home that she's decided is no longer good for her... and boot you out. 

Typically we see the parent with issues refusing to give up the home.  (Actually "home" is wherever you live, not a specific structure.)

Let her go, though if she decides to pay a huge rent would she expect you to pay some of the cost?  Beware of co-signing for a long lease.

Once she has moved out, it would be good to position yourself as (orseek to be) the one with official "occupancy" in court documents.  That may reduce the risk of her moving back.

She got my counter suit today.  According to her we aren't friends anymore.   Don't know what she thought the past few months were.

If she signs a lease and moves that's OK.  Issue is she's trying to take the kids and it's 40 miles away from our current home.  She can go, but she needs to leave the kids.

Once she saw the counter suit she said it didn't work for her.  Told me she said she would cancel if I agreed to move and instead I hired a lawyer, so it shows where my priorities are.  That's manipulation right?  Sell or I divorce you?

She finally realized she's not going to get this giant settlement and is asking why I would do that to her.  She was a great wife and I was terrible. 

My attorney is working on getting it to the judge so they rule she can't move the kids.

[mikejones75093]

Now she went on social media and wrote a 2 page post about how I manipulate and abuse her.  Is this crap normal?   My family and friends are all reaching out.

Good thing her post reads like a narcissist rant.  I did this and I sacrificed that and supported me through all kinds of bad decisions.   Does she really believe this or just looking for attention?

I can't tell if it's a good thing because she's definitely lost it.

[Notwendy]

Get a screenshot of it before she takes it down. I don’t know if it’s evidence of crazy but it shows indiscretion - save it for your own records .

[mikejones75093]

Get a screenshot of it before she takes it down. I don’t know if it’s evidence of crazy but it shows indiscretion - save it for your own records .

I did.  I'm not on her page but other people sent me screen shots of it.  This is just nuts.  Don't know whats next.

[ForeverDad]

This is just nuts.  Don't know whats next.

Quite true.  Almost anything can be next.  Remember, her goal is probably to make you appear worse than her.

And don't be surprised if family court just says "ho hum" as though it's just another day at the bench.  For them it is but for you it feels like it's your life swinging in the wind.  Maybe some claims will require investigation but even that will most likely be considered "unsubstantiated".  Sadly, it may take a while for family court to realize there's a difference between you two, she's causing conflict while you're seeking workable solutions.

[EyesUp]

When I was going through my separation and divorce, it took some time to realize that not every comment from my then stbx required a response.

On one hand, it often feels like you're in the thick of a legal process and it's best to respond.

On the other hand, as FD suggested, many claims are considered unsubstantiated or "utterances".

When dealing with this, you may find that a common suggestion for detaching from a disordered significant other also applies well for divorce (and post-divorce) communications:  Default to zero response as your new baseline. 

This is both legal advice and emotional advice.  In instances where you receive legal communication from your stbx's atty, review options and the response with your atty - just as you've been doing.  But don't feel the need to respond to every (false) accusation or demand or mini-tantrum.  Expect these episodes to occur like changes in the weather, and you'll be less likely to be caught off guard, to respond to emotion with emotion, or to get sucked in to drama for drama's sake.

It's like emotional grey-rock plus legal grey-rock.  Another sky-high expectation or entitlement from your stbx?  Ho hum, you knew it was coming...

However there are some things you can do to manage this process, for your own sanity as well as for the benefit of your atty, if needed.

Document everything. Concisely.  Keep a password protected log of events or key moments. e.g., "7pm Nov 20.  stbx demanded that I leave the house. I responded that I did not intend to leave. stbx screamed in front of the kids, slammed the door, then left the house."   

This journal can help you focus on what's happening or happened after what seems like a barrage of unreasonable moments.  And it may potentially be submitted as evidence later "your honor, there are 65 instances of abusive behavior / unreasonable demands / outbursts in front of children in my client's journal over the past 12 months - here is a concise list of 13 such incidents in the past 30 days..."   As such, write this concise journal with a judge in mind.  A judge does not want to (and likely will not) read a long narrative - they want to scan a page and quickly conclude a, b, c...   and even if you never present your journal to a judge, concise entries will help you to help yourself when/if you ever need to go back and make sense of what's happened/happening.

Finally, there is another mode of documentation to consider, for times when you truly must communicate with your stbx, but want to stop short of paying your atty to send a letter.  In this case, consider an "R3" (Registered, Return, Receipt) letter.  The R3 is may be accepted as evidence, whereas email or text messages are usually treated as utterances unless validated by potentially expensive processes because it's too easy to "fake" an email or text and harder to prove it was actually sent from person a to person b at such and such a date. But the R3 is accepted to be from you to your stbx on a certain date by default because USPS processes make it almost impossible to fake a delivery, and you will have the return receipt indicating date and time. 

The purpose of the R3 is actually not for your stbx, it's explicitly to document for the judge that you are actively seeking and have proposed reasonable solutions. As such, it's also a super concise document, just a few lines, really.  e.g.,

"Dear stbx,

On Nov 20, you threatened a, b, c.  Please understand that I take these threats seriously.  To move forward, I propose that address our mutual concerns with a mediator.  If you agree, please confirm to me by Nov 27 so that we may begin a mediation process.

Sincerely, Mike"

I think we both know that your stbx will reject this plan, however the R3 letter will legally document both her behavior (in this case, some threat) and your reasonable response/solution.

Do not send R3s every time something objectionable happens, but do consider using this process to document the most egregious issues that, in "normal" or at least healthier dynamics could be resolved through a reasonable, cooperative process.

Sometimes simply thinking through this process and attempting to draft the letter can help align your thinking and keep you on track.  I've drafted a few R3s I didn't end up sending, but converted into journal entries instead. 

In time, you'll recognize when your stbx is seeking attention, stoking conflict, attempting to control you by keeping you engaged (by any means necessary), etc., and various outbursts will have far less impact. You'll be able to see through a given interaction to what's on the other side:  often, nothing.

In my case, I eventually reached a point where I advised my atty not to engage on certain points.  For example, my atty asked if I wanted her help to draw up an agreement re division of household items to be incorporated with stipulations pertaining to separation.  I said no thanks - it was a sideshow ripe for multiple volleys between the attys ($$$$) over many relatively low-value items. My atty agreed, and I built and proposed a list to my then-stbx directly, which she predictably rejected.  I did work with my atty on the major division of assets:  home, retirement accounts...  but kept the small stuff (and a number of petty arguments I could see coming a mile away) out of it.

[mikejones75093]

When I was going through my separation and divorce, it took some time to realize that not every comment from my then stbx required a response.

On one hand, it often feels like you're in the thick of a legal process and it's best to respond.

On the other hand, as FD suggested, many claims are considered unsubstantiated or "utterances".

When dealing with this, you may find that a common suggestion for detaching from a disordered significant other also applies well for divorce (and post-divorce) communications:  Default to zero response as your new baseline. 

This is both legal advice and emotional advice.  In instances where you receive legal communication from your stbx's atty, review options and the response with your atty - just as you've been doing.  But don't feel the need to respond to every (false) accusation or demand or mini-tantrum.  Expect these episodes to occur like changes in the weather, and you'll be less likely to be caught off guard, to respond to emotion with emotion, or to get sucked in to drama for drama's sake.

It's like emotional grey-rock plus legal grey-rock.  Another sky-high expectation or entitlement from your stbx?  Ho hum, you knew it was coming...

However there are some things you can do to manage this process, for your own sanity as well as for the benefit of your atty, if needed.

Document everything. Concisely.  Keep a password protected log of events or key moments. e.g., "7pm Nov 20.  stbx demanded that I leave the house. I responded that I did not intend to leave. stbx screamed in front of the kids, slammed the door, then left the house."   

This journal can help you focus on what's happening or happened after what seems like a barrage of unreasonable moments.  And it may potentially be submitted as evidence later "your honor, there are 65 instances of abusive behavior / unreasonable demands / outbursts in front of children in my client's journal over the past 12 months - here is a concise list of 13 such incidents in the past 30 days..."   As such, write this concise journal with a judge in mind.  A judge does not want to (and likely will not) read a long narrative - they want to scan a page and quickly conclude a, b, c...   and even if you never present your journal to a judge, concise entries will help you to help yourself when/if you ever need to go back and make sense of what's happened/happening.

Finally, there is another mode of documentation to consider, for times when you truly must communicate with your stbx, but want to stop short of paying your atty to send a letter.  In this case, consider an "R3" (Registered, Return, Receipt) letter.  The R3 is may be accepted as evidence, whereas email or text messages are usually treated as utterances unless validated by potentially expensive processes because it's too easy to "fake" an email or text and harder to prove it was actually sent from person a to person b at such and such a date. But the R3 is accepted to be from you to your stbx on a certain date by default because USPS processes make it almost impossible to fake a delivery, and you will have the return receipt indicating date and time. 

The purpose of the R3 is actually not for your stbx, it's explicitly to document for the judge that you are actively seeking and have proposed reasonable solutions. As such, it's also a super concise document, just a few lines, really.  e.g.,

"Dear stbx,

On Nov 20, you threatened a, b, c.  Please understand that I take these threats seriously.  To move forward, I propose that address our mutual concerns with a mediator.  If you agree, please confirm to me by Nov 27 so that we may begin a mediation process.

Sincerely, Mike"

I think we both know that your stbx will reject this plan, however the R3 letter will legally document both her behavior (in this case, some threat) and your reasonable response/solution.

Do not send R3s every time something objectionable happens, but do consider using this process to document the most egregious issues that, in "normal" or at least healthier dynamics could be resolved through a reasonable, cooperative process.

Sometimes simply thinking through this process and attempting to draft the letter can help align your thinking and keep you on track.  I've drafted a few R3s I didn't end up sending, but converted into journal entries instead. 

In time, you'll recognize when your stbx is seeking attention, stoking conflict, attempting to control you by keeping you engaged (by any means necessary), etc., and various outbursts will have far less impact. You'll be able to see through a given interaction to what's on the other side:  often, nothing.

In my case, I eventually reached a point where I advised my atty not to engage on certain points.  For example, my atty asked if I wanted her help to draw up an agreement re division of household items to be incorporated with stipulations pertaining to separation.  I said no thanks - it was a sideshow ripe for multiple volleys between the attys ($$$$) over many relatively low-value items. My atty agreed, and I built and proposed a list to my then-stbx directly, which she predictably rejected.  I did work with my atty on the major division of assets:  home, retirement accounts...  but kept the small stuff (and a number of petty arguments I could see coming a mile away) out of it.

Thanks for the advice.   I have been calm and quit talking to her.  A wee ago is the first time I told her I agreed with the divorce and m moving forward.   Just seems like the more control she loses over me the more she is escalating.  I haven't responded to any of her tantrums or let her know I saw these posts.  She's looking for attention or someone to validate her.  Sucks all around but in some ways I already feel more free.

[mikejones75093]

What is her main goal in completely trying to destroy me?

 She's making social media posts telling everyone how horrible I am.  Telling everyone how amazing she is and how abusive I am.  All BS. 

Shes got her phone on record secretly and editing what i say to make it sound bad and posting on social media. 

She's interviewing our kids in private to get any and all details of what I'm possibly doing wrong then emailing and offering to help me correct it.  Little things that don't matter,  no health or safety issues.  I was drinking a can of coke in the car and she has my young child saying it's beer.

Does she need a damn hug because she's hurt I'm moving forward or does she really want to take me down?   

Any hope I ever had of working this out is just gone.  She has spoken so bad of me I'm beyond hurt and sad.  The people that know me said it's disgusting and dropped her, but the people that don't know us very well are eating this crap up and telling her how amazing she is.

 

[SaltyDawg]

What is her main goal in completely trying to destroy me?

 She's making social media posts telling everyone how horrible I am.  Telling everyone how amazing she is and how abusive I am.  All BS. 

Shes got her phone on record secretly and editing what i say to make it sound bad and posting on social media. 

She's interviewing our kids in private to get any and all details of what I'm possibly doing wrong then emailing and offering to help me correct it.  Little things that don't matter,  no health or safety issues.  I was drinking a can of coke in the car and she has my young child saying it's beer.

Does she need a damn hug because she's hurt I'm moving forward or does she really want to take me down?   

Any hope I ever had of working this out is just gone.  She has spoken so bad of me I'm beyond hurt and sad.  The people that know me said it's disgusting and dropped her, but the people that don't know us very well are eating this crap up and telling her how amazing she is.

The smear campaign has begun - and more than likely, she is doing everything in her power to make you look bad, and her look good.

Unfortunately the recordings of you give her argument(s) a lot of weight, even if it is edited.  So, if you were speaking in an angry tone - it is going to work against you, or said things that you shouldn't have, that too will work against you like your comment "Does she need a damn hug because she's hurt".  Whenever you are around her, or speaking on the phone, use a calm voice, and keep it BIFF (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=134124).  From this point forward you need to be on best behavior and say and do as little as possible in front of her, also let your attorney know of the recordings, so they know how to handle the fallout.

A suggestion - You might want to make one BIFF style post for 'damage control' by taking the high road, indicating that you are in the process of divorcing, will not comment on her false and misleading statements taken out of context, and request understanding until the divorce is final and request your friends/acquaintances from refraining on commenting on a private matter between two individuals. (or something along those lines, your attorney can advise you the best).

[mikejones75093]

The smear campaign has begun - and more than likely, she is doing everything in her power to make you look bad, and her look good.

Unfortunately the recordings of you give her argument(s) a lot of weight, even if it is edited.  So, if you were speaking in an angry tone - it is going to work against you, or said things that you shouldn't have, that too will work against you like your comment "Does she need a damn hug because she's hurt".  Whenever you are around her, or speaking on the phone, use a calm voice, and keep it BIFF (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=134124).  From this point forward you need to be on best behavior and say and do as little as possible in front of her, also let your attorney know of the recordings, so they know how to handle the fallout.

A suggestion - You might want to make one BIFF style post for 'damage control' by taking the high road, indicating that you are in the process of divorcing, will not comment on her false and misleading statements taken out of context, and request understanding until the divorce is final and request your friends/acquaintances from refraining on commenting on a private matter between two individuals. (or something along those lines, your attorney can advise you the best).

She doesn't know I know about these posts.  She only invited people she thought would take her side.   I've known a bunch of them for over 20 years.  They reached out and sent me everything.  Already sent it all to my attorney.   It's just psycho. 

From what my friends told me I did raise my voice in the recording,  nothing like her, and not violent or anything.  I basically told her to stay out of my stuff and it was like the 10th time I had to tell her.  She moved all her stuff to the other end of the home and I don't mess with it.  Don't know why she thinks she can keep going through my things

I knew something like this might happen so I've been recording her blow ups for the past year.   She doesn't know I have all of that.

[SaltyDawg]

She doesn't know I know about these posts.  She only invited people she thought would take her side.   I've known a bunch of them for over 20 years.  They reached out and sent me everything.  Already sent it all to my attorney.   It's just psycho. 

Well, a 'borderline' historically was a person between sane and psycho...  Keep documenting, and try not to let it get under your skin.  Keep reminding yourself, that it is false, and false statements if believed by the wrong people can hurt, but you cannot do anything about what she does, other than let your attorney handle that portion if it becomes slanderous or libelous.


From what my friends told me I did raise my voice in the recording,  nothing like her, and not violent or anything.  I basically told her to stay out of my stuff and it was like the 10th time I had to tell her.  She moved all her stuff to the other end of the home and I don't mess with it.  Don't know why she thinks she can keep going through my things

As long as you are under the same roof, you can expect her to keep going through your things.  If possible, by an external lock, and lock the room with a key.


I knew something like this might happen so I've been recording her blow ups for the past year.   She doesn't know I have all of that.

Do the legwork, and segregate the worst of the worst for your attorney (it'll save you some money) - if the same topic, use the shorter recordings, but have a descriptive list of all your recordings with everything she has done.  Ask your attorney for subject matter(s) that the court would be willing to listen to. 


I know it is easier said than done, but try not to let your wife's behaviors get under your skin.

Take care with self care. 

[ForeverDad]

The smear campaign has begun - and more than likely, she is doing everything in her power to make you look bad, and her look good.

Or at least make you look worse than her.

A suggestion - You might want to make one BIFF style post for 'damage control' by taking the high road, indicating that you are in the process of divorcing, will not comment on her false and misleading statements taken out of context, and request understanding until the divorce is final and request your friends/acquaintances from refraining on commenting on a private matter between two individuals. (or something along those lines, your attorney can advise you the best).

Remember, you have been married for several years but only now that the marriage is ending she is more publicly complaining about you?  As frustrating as her complaining behavior has been over the years, the timing makes it clear that she is posturing.

[mikejones75093]

Or at least make you look worse than her.

Remember, you have been married for several years but only now that the marriage is ending she is more publicly complaining about you?  As frustrating as her complaining behavior has been over the years, the timing makes it clear that she is posturing.

I agree. My first thought was who does his in public?  Second, anyone that reads it, it sounds like a narcissist rant.  People that I'm good friends with and family already removed her and called it disgusting.

I invited a couple of the dads from my kids team over this weekend so the boys can run around and toss the ball.  I know them from my kids team but not that well.  One of the dads called me and said he saw the post from his wife.  Said he understands there are 2 sides.  How do you reply to this?  Just get the elephant out of the room and let them know it's all garbage? Or just keep moving on and not say anything?

[SaltyDawg]

I invited a couple of the dads from my kids team over this weekend so the boys can run around and toss the ball.  I know them from my kids team but not that well.  One of the dads called me and said he saw the post from his wife.  Said he understands there are 2 sides.  How do you reply to this?  Just get the elephant out of the room and let them know it's all garbage? Or just keep moving on and not say anything?

For those who have not experienced a Cluster-B relationship (BPD/NPD/ASPD/HSP/etc.) have no clue as to the dynamics and they think the truth is roughly halfway between what he said and what she said (I used to think this way myself before I became familiar with BPD).  However with a cluster-B, this is like a 5/95 (or better) ratio.  Eventually the truth will come out; however, this won't likely happen until a lot of damage occurs.

That said, not saying anything to this dad will admit guilt since you did not defend yourself.  However, you don't want to attack your wife, otherwise your wife's lies will get some teeth (catch-22).

I would take the high road, don't lower yourself to her level, and say something along the lines of “I’ve heard some things being said about me that aren’t accurate. I wanted to clarify in case you had any questions or concerns.” in the 'address it indirectly section of the article I linked in the next paragraph along with the other suggestions this article has.

I found an article with a lot of good common sense tips, it was near the top of a google search on the topic https://www.believeinmind.com/self-growth/when-someone-lies-about-you-to-others/

Take care with self-care.

[Notwendy]

My own take on the smear campaign is that being in victim perspective absolves someone of feeling accountable. This avoids shame which is an uncomfortable feeling. Keeping BPD mother's issues secret has been a family rule.

Something like divorce can't be kept secret- and being in victim perspective, this means it's not her fault- so it has to be your fault. It's a version of the Karpman triangle.

BPD mother was angry at me at one point and  said untrue things about me to people in her circle.  I know some of the things she said because she called my in-laws and say things to them and they told me what she had said  In-laws didn't believe her but her family and friends seemed to buy into it at the time.

What to do about it?  If I tried to clear the story with her family and friends, there'd be a cognitive dissonance- both stories could not be true. They'd likely believe her. It would sound like I was doing the same thing as she was. When I encounter people in her circle, I keep it cordial and polite. Fortunately, her family eventually figured things out.

As to your friend, the other father- hard to know how he'd respond to the information. Agreed that unless someone has experienced a similar situation- they likely won't understand it. I think I'd acknowlege the gesture but keep things superficial and not say much- something like "thanks, I appreciate your saying that" and leave it at that- as it's not saying anything about your wife. I think this is also something to ask your lawyer about- if what she is posting is potentially damaging- you don't want to be doing this too by speaking about her.

To me, posting relationship drama on social media at adult age is a red flag. Other people may feel that way too when they see it. To me, it shows poor judgment and poor boundaries. Information such as announcing an engagement, or marriage- that is appropriate public information, but divorce drama or badmouthing someone- that makes me wonder about the person posting.

If you aren't in counseling, consider it. It's good to have someone to talk to and counseling is a confidential situation.

[EyesUp]

I also faced a social media smear campaign when going through separation and divorce. 

I also received comments, screen shots, and documentation from friends and concerned parties.

My MO was / is:  Minimize public activity on social media. Do not respond publicly. Address any concerns by stating "Yes, I've heard about this from others, and I appreciate your concern.  I'm glad to answer any questions, but I will not engage online - I intend to do my best to disengage, show respect to my stbx, and to always put the kids first"

Usually that's enough to demonstrate who is behaving like an adult (and who is not).

If your kids are old enough to see those posts, it may also be considered disparagement - for discussion with your atty.

Hang in there!

[mikejones75093]

I also faced a social media smear campaign when going through separation and divorce. 

I also received comments, screen shots, and documentation from friends and concerned parties.

My MO was / is:  Minimize public activity on social media. Do not respond publicly. Address any concerns by stating "Yes, I've heard about this from others, and I appreciate your concern.  I'm glad to answer any questions, but I will not engage online - I intend to do my best to disengage, show respect to my stbx, and to always put the kids first"

Usually that's enough to demonstrate who is behaving like an adult (and who is not).

If your kids are old enough to see those posts, it may also be considered disparagement - for discussion with your atty.

Hang in there!

It's a private account.  She doesn't know that I know, and the kids don't have access.  Our first marriage counselor that diagnosed her would always tell me to quit defending myself.   She said you didn't do anything, stop going round and round with her.  I like the I appreciate the concern and I'm here to do what's best for the kids thing.  I'll keep it high level.  I'm the guy that's friends with everyone on the team,  She has no friends or family,  they all screwed her over hahaha.  I'm sure in time everyone will see reality of who acts like an adult.  Just wasn't prepared for that call yesterday and how far she would go with this smear campaign.   She's really losing it, going much further than before.  I can't tell if it's because she wants my attention or if she really hates me.  When I was 7 I liked a girl, how did I get her attention?  Talked crap to her and told her she was ugly.  Getting older and learning how to socialize that was the exact wrong way to get attention from a crush.  I can't help but think she's a child inside.

[Notwendy]

Maybe little boys do that but from my own experience, girls don't do that if they want a boy's attention.

What your wife is doing sounds more like the middle school "mean girl" behavior. That's why I said that adults posting drama on social media is a red flag to me.  While I wouldn't want someone posting any drama on social media at any age, it's more like middle school behavior. Before social media, the thing was to pass notes at school, sometimes mean ones. I don't know of boys doing this.

I have an aquaintance who was posting all kinds of drama on Facebook- she had issues with her neighbors, with her kids' schools, and the more I saw of this, the more I began to think maybe the issue is with her. This kind of thing can be offputting. Keep taking the high road as more people probably are questioning this behavior than you may know.

[mikejones75093]

I got word today that she is requesting a temporary restraining order.  She is asking for exclusive possession of the kids.  She rented A house and  if this goes through she's going to move and try to tell the judge they are now residents in a town 30 miles away.  I have never been so upset.

[kells76]

I'd be upset, too.

Can you and your L counter file something essentially saying "I have no objection to Ms Ex-mikejones moving wherever she likes. The kids shall reside with Mr. mikejones who will ensure that the kids spend time with her per the current parenting time agreement."

She doesn't get to set the terms, but may be trying to get you on the defensive and flustered by making these legal moves.

Vent here, but be proactive and assertive when working with your L. It doesn't have to all be just responding/reacting to her wacky proposals. Make some strong proposals of your own.

She's going to keep claiming wacky stuff and asking for the moon. You don't have to be stuck in her framing -- don't let it derail you emotionally. Assume that she's going to escalate, so it doesn't surprise you, and so that your effort and focus and energy can remain on what's best for your kids, instead of on her impulsivity.

Nutshell: assume she'll keep escalating, and instead of your strategy being to react to each move she makes, pivot your strategy to being 5 steps ahead of her.

[ForeverDad]

Can you and your L counter file something essentially saying "I have no objection to Ms Ex-mikejones moving wherever she likes. The kids shall reside with Mr. mikejones who will ensure that the kids spend time with her per the current parenting time agreement."

This is good.  Your spouse is an adult and you won't succeed if you try to limit her adult life choices.  This is about parenting and you're justified to focus your attention to your parenting.

It doesn't have to all be just responding/reacting to her wacky proposals. Make some strong proposals of your own.

She's going to keep claiming wacky stuff and asking for the moon...

Nutshell: assume she'll keep escalating, and instead of your strategy being to react to each move she makes, pivot your strategy to being 5 steps ahead of her.

I often ask this theoretical question... If your ex demands 90-100% parenting and you seek a fair division at 50%, what might the judge be tempted to rule?  Would the judge be a "split the difference" person?  If so then you could walk out of the hearing with alternate weekends, what for decades has been termed "the father's usual outcome.

So kells76 is correct, you can't sit back and stick to what seems fair, you risk getting shortchanged.  Proactive strategies are a smart approach but even so things may not go your way.  What then?

Likely the court wouldn't grant 100% (or exclusive) custody or parenting unless it concluded you were a danger to the children.  That is a high bar to accomplish.  Likely children's services would be called in to assess whether you really were endangering the kids.  If court did make an order for you to be assessed, then be sure to have her assessed too, equally.  (In my case only I was assessed since we hadn't been in court yet and the CPS investigator literally stood up in court at the first hearing and stated they had "no concerns" about me. Court tossed her petition for child's protection.)

I better make a clarification here.  My temp orders did gift my then-stbEx temp custody (after all, even if it turned out to be 2 years, it was just "temporary") but it never let her get exclusive parenting.  Courts don't like blocked parenting without cause.

Has she allowed you to have any visits with the children?  Without her monitoring?  If she insisted to be present then that would be termed "supervised".  Court would limit you to supervised visits only if the professionals saw you as a danger to the children.  (While it might briefly restrict you while being assessed, it should resolve that issue within a couple weeks.)

Be aware that psych evals are usually just cursory evaluations, mine in 2005 said I had 'anxiety'.  Yeah, tell me something I didn't know!  I don't know what hers would have said since she never complied with her part of the order.  Psych evals probably wouldn't extend to the children or the parenting of the children.

For that you would have to file for a Custody Evaluation.  Make sure you get a trusted or qualified evaluator since this can make or break your case.  Mine was a child psychologist fully trusted by family court.  Be forewarned this can take several months and is quite expensive.

What do you do meanwhile?  Get the best (or least bad) temp order from the start.  I had a lousy temp order for 2 years and neither lawyers nor magistrate fixed it as the predictable problems arose during the divorce process.  So try to get a clause in the temp order that it can be modified when problems arise?

I would bet your spouse is planning to have you pay support for her rental (another reason she wants exclusive possession of the kids since she'd get more child support money).  Tell the court she was the one to move out and, as kells wrote, the children should be with you with her getting some visitation.

If she doesn't work now, you can state she's able to work and should resume work so she can transition from the marriage.

[mikejones75093]

I'm the kids main care taker.  I work from my phone so I'm always home with them.

She is saying I financially and verbally abuse her and am a drug user in the order.  My L said its weak, and is working on filing our own orders.

I have video clips of her verbally abusing me and the children, but my L said we aren't using that just yet.

If it is granted its 14 days max and I don't use drugs.  So my L said we will get through it,  but hopefully it isn't granted.

Today I was amazingly calm and collected.  This seems to have enraged her. She took the kids and told them to lie to me and not tell me where they really went.  I pulled her tithe side and calmly told her to please not ask the kids to lie to their dad.  Boy did she get defensive.   After telling me she didn't do it she was defending herself explaining everything so I calmly said I'm not going to argue just please don't do it again.  Once I did this she told me she feels threatened and was calling the police.

She never did but told me to quit making false accusations or she was taking the kids and leaving.

The more calm I was the more upset she got.  Is that normal?

[ForeverDad]

If she has filed allegations, it's hard for a court not to respond, but cautiously.  This is probably a matter of ex parte where the judge can issue a temp order allowing time for the other parent to be assessed but then have to follow up with a hearing in a couple weeks where both parents appear so both parents have an opportunity to briefly present their arguments and for any other professionals' reports to be considered.

I emphasize the word briefly.  My first hearings were scheduled for a half hour.  Focus on the more important matters.  I recall when I had typed up a list of 11 issues, grouped by topic.  We only covered the first few and then time was up. My mistake was that I didn't list the more urgent issues first.  Prioritize your lists.

One risk is that only you are assessed since you are the claimed perp.  See how that starts you off as seen cast in a bad light?  So while you should be cleared, no one takes a similar scrutiny of your stbEx.  So I'm pleased to hear that your lawyer will file papers too, and hope that your spouse is scrutinized as well.

However, understand that court often faces spouses who squabble and bicker, full of emotions.  How do you and your lawyer present a case that this is not a divorce that is inciting the emotional bickering but much deeper roots about subtle and not so subtle mental health concerns?  Do your best but likely this is the start of a long journey.

Your spouse will be the one sabotaging and complaining and filing even more allegations when these current ones are closed as "unsubstantiated" or at least not rising to the level of being "actionable".  You must be the parent with solutions.  Even if the court may not take notice at first.

Beware of being too nice or agreeable (gifting of your income).  All you need to do is be courteous and not nasty.  That's all the court expects, being too generous or to "fair" will not gain you any brownie points.  Try to limit how much you're obligated to pay for ex's new rental or other monetary splurges.

Do not agree to stbEx to get authorization to move the children to other schools.  Sure, court can allow her to do that, but you don't have to agree, you can state that you believe it is unwise.  As a father and one of two parents you can stand up for yourself.

[EyesUp]

I'm sure your atty is sharp, but I'll add that the best interest of the children is usually the guiding principal - and continuity / status quo is often a default "best interest" position. 

Dad is the primary caregiver?  Knows the teachers, doctors, etc?  Kids doing well in school?  Have some established social circle/community?

If the answer to most of this is yes, then what is the upside to disruption associated with removing the kids from their home, school, friends, community?   i.e., your stbx is free to move but is not free to unilaterally relocate the kids, and is certainly not free to make false claims in order to justify this plan.

Nice job staying calm.  If your stbx is anything like my uBPDx, indifference/grey rock is initially infuriating because they are accustomed to getting some type of attention - negative or otherwise - from their antics.  When the attention fades abruptly, it's almost like a rejection - and the response to this perceived insult can be rage or at least highly charged emoting...  I wouldn't describe this behavior as "normal" but it is a familiar pattern in the B-Cluster community.  In other words, you're not alone...

A lot of what you're describing is outlined in the book, Splitting.  I must have read it 3-4 times when I went through my divorce.  Even if you've already read it, read it again.

Hang in there.

[ForeverDad]

If she's been diagnosed with Borderline, then you can mention it, but otherwise don't be surprised if you mention a specific disorder that court will look at you sideways through squinted eyes and tell you that you're not a trained professional (even though you know her better - 10 years - than almost anyone else).

My court and the professionals (lawyers, CPS, custody evaluator, etc) all studiously avoided the mental health topic, at first.  But even when they had to face it, they never named it.  Even the custody evaluation, though it included a few mental health diagnostic tests such as the respected MMPI-2 (now the MMPI-3 is in use) never once named a diagnosis.  My CE stated he was not there to diagnose but look at us both closely and recommend to the court how custody and parenting should be handled.

So essentially everyone in the System just deals with our problem parents with documented behavior and documentation.  Evidence.  Usually that's a wise path with our efforts too.

[mikejones75093]

If she has filed allegations, it's hard for a court not to respond, but cautiously.  This is probably a matter of ex parte where the judge can issue a temp order allowing time for the other parent to be assessed but then have to follow up with a hearing in a couple weeks where both parents appear so both parents have an opportunity to briefly present their arguments and for any other professionals' reports to be considered.

I emphasize the word briefly.  My first hearings were scheduled for a half hour.  Focus on the more important matters.  I recall when I had typed up a list of 11 issues, grouped by topic.  We only covered the first few and then time was up. My mistake was that I didn't list the more urgent issues first.  Prioritize your lists.

One risk is that only you are assessed since you are the claimed perp.  See how that starts you off as seen cast in a bad light?  So while you should be cleared, no one takes a similar scrutiny of your stbEx.  So I'm pleased to hear that your lawyer will file papers too, and hope that your spouse is scrutinized as well.

However, understand that court often faces spouses who squabble and bicker, full of emotions.  How do you and your lawyer present a case that this is not a divorce that is inciting the emotional bickering but much deeper roots about subtle and not so subtle mental health concerns?  Do your best but likely this is the start of a long journey.

Your spouse will be the one sabotaging and complaining and filing even more allegations when these current ones are closed as "unsubstantiated" or at least not rising to the level of being "actionable".  You must be the parent with solutions.  Even if the court may not take notice at first.

Beware of being too nice or agreeable (gifting of your income).  All you need to do is be courteous and not nasty.  That's all the court expects, being too generous or to "fair" will not gain you any brownie points.  Try to limit how much you're obligated to pay for ex's new rental or other monetary splurges.

Do not agree to stbEx to get authorization to move the children to other schools.  Sure, court can allow her to do that, but you don't have to agree, you can state that you believe it is unwise.  As a father and one of two parents you can stand up for yourself.

It is ex parte but the judge had a jury trial so it was not looked at Friday.  My attorney prepared a response to every allegation with documented proof.  I have no idea how this works but hopefully my attorney got it right.

I am being courteous but not nasty.  Brief to the point in a nice tone but not giving anything away.  This is really bothering her.  She keeps escalating everytime she doesn't get the response she wants.

After everything she did to defend herself my kid came up to me today and said mom told me to go tell you that.  Damn, caught in a lie.  I already knew it though.

I haven't told the court she is diagnosed.  That was 10 years ago and the therapist made us sign a letter saying she doesn't go to court.

I'm really hoping this does not get granted.  Since we had the weekend we were able to file our response up front with documenting plus our own ex parte request against her.

In boxing they always say don't let it go tonthe judges.  I'm so anxious.

[mikejones75093]

I'm sure your atty is sharp, but I'll add that the best interest of the children is usually the guiding principal - and continuity / status quo is often a default "best interest" position. 

Dad is the primary caregiver?  Knows the teachers, doctors, etc?  Kids doing well in school?  Have some established social circle/community?

If the answer to most of this is yes, then what is the upside to disruption associated with removing the kids from their home, school, friends, community?   i.e., your stbx is free to move but is not free to unilaterally relocate the kids, and is certainly not free to make false claims in order to justify this plan.

Nice job staying calm.  If your stbx is anything like my uBPDx, indifference/grey rock is initially infuriating because they are accustomed to getting some type of attention - negative or otherwise - from their antics.  When the attention fades abruptly, it's almost like a rejection - and the response to this perceived insult can be rage or at least highly charged emoting...  I wouldn't describe this behavior as "normal" but it is a familiar pattern in the B-Cluster community.  In other words, you're not alone...

A lot of what you're describing is outlined in the book, Splitting.  I must have read it 3-4 times when I went through my divorce.  Even if you've already read it, read it again.

Hang in there.

I appreciate it.

I will reread it.  I don't sleep a lot these days.

I am the care taker,  and the kids have all their activities in the community.   

She's playing battered mom, but it's all hearsay.  She said I drink and do drugs,  no proof or anything.   Well I don't do that.

Her financial abuse accusation,  now that I can document clearly why it's not and I provided everything to my attorney and detailed it very specific.

I'm just praying everyday.   I can't believe someone can be so evil.

She gets exclusive possession I get none.  I can have supervised visits at her discretion by a supervisor she pics.  Complete garbage of a person to fabricate to get their way and let that happen.

[ForeverDad]

Exclusive... supervised visits only... all par for the course in some of our more extreme cases.

My ex wanted supervised.  Two weeks later the court nixed that idea, they had "no concerns" about me.  Yet everyone ignored my ex's parenting.  Good that you're lawyer has filed for her to be scrutinized as well.

Make sure your lawyer knows about the therapist.  I'm told most therapists and counselors refuse to testify in court because they can't risk the hassle of lawsuits or complaints to licensing boards.  However, all is not lost.  If a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) is assigned to be the kids' lawyer or a Custody Evaluation is ordered, then they typically will provide a background to the GAL or CE.

[SaltyDawg]

If your attorney thinks this is a good idea, have yourself drug tested and tested for BAC ( breathalyzer ) to discredit the false allegation of drugs and alcohol - and then have your attorney request the same of your wife so she is subjected to similar harassment that she is instigating on you.  If she does use drugs and/or drinks, she has a lot more to lose than you do.  It will also cast her in the same light she is casting you.

[mikejones75093]

If your attorney thinks this is a good idea, have yourself drug tested and tested for BAC ( breathalyzer ) to discredit the false allegation of drugs and alcohol - and then have your attorney request the same of your wife so she is subjected to similar harassment that she is instigating on you.  If she does use drugs and/or drinks, she has a lot more to lose than you do.  It will also cast her in the same light she is casting you.

We were going to be proactive and have all of that completed at our temporary orders hearing.  We didn't realize she was going to try and take a cheap shot so haven't done it yet.  Attorney is aware and I told her let me know when and I'll take it.

[mikejones75093]

Exclusive... supervised visits only... all par for the course in some of our more extreme cases.

My ex wanted supervised.  Two weeks later the court nixed that idea, they had "no concerns" about me.  Yet everyone ignored my ex's parenting.  Good that you're lawyer has filed for her to be scrutinized as well.

Make sure your lawyer knows about the therapist.  I'm told most therapists and counselors refuse to testify in court because they can't risk the hassle of lawsuits or complaints to licensing boards.  However, all is not lost.  If a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) is assigned to be the kids' lawyer or a Custody Evaluation is ordered, then they typically will provide a background to the GAL or CE.

My attorney filed an ex parte order on her that includes my response to her.

I saw a copy of what my spouse filed, and it looks like her attorney just copy and pasted her rant.

I saw the draft of mine and it reads very well and includes things like see exhibit a, see exhibit b

I hate letting this go to a judge.  Just ask any boxer.   But I'm praying and hoping for the best.  All she has is hearsay.  I was able to respond to all of her allegations with documentation.

Spouse was supposed to work today.  If it's granted she's packing them and going today. 

[ForeverDad]

When I separated and we both had TPOs against each other, the court ordered psych evals.  I   Mine was a short visit to a county agency.  I did have an attorney but she was from a neighboring county, fairly new but she did recommend someone local for my divorce.  Here's a summary of what happened to me versus one concept to avoid lack of compliance.  You lawyer sounds on top of things and so may not have to hold your reports in escrow while waiting for the other party to also comply.

We had a court order psych evals early in our case for both of us.  That started as a good thing but I flubbed it.  The risk with such orders is three-fold.  First, if only you get ordered to comply then you are typically seen as the accused and the other as the victim, not good.  You need the other parent to be scrutinized too!  If any order could cast you as the perp or let the other parent avoid being scrutinized, then if at all possible, get any ordered evaluations applied to both of you.  Second, these are only an overview of a person's mental state and don't even try to assess the impact on parenting and the children.  Third, the other spouse may not comply.  That's what happened to me.

During my separation in 2005-2006 we both were ordered to submit to psych evals and provide our results to the court and lawyers.  I complied.  (The quickie eval concluded I had "anxiety".)  Then silence.  Where was then-stbEx's eval?  To this day I still haven't seen it nor do I know whether she even got a psych eval at all...

My conclusion:  Any order, deal or process where both of you have to do something and provide it to the court and lawyers, you cannot risk complying first.  There is real risk the other side will simply not comply and not even be held accountable.  So I advocate this in such situations:  Tell your lawyer you have complied, maybe even provide the results to your lawyer but then instruct your lawyer to hold it (sort of as is done in escrow) until the other party is ready to exchange the results.

[mikejones75093]

When I separated and we both had TPOs against each other, the court ordered psych evals.  I   Mine was a short visit to a county agency.  I did have an attorney but she was from a neighboring county, fairly new but she did recommend someone local for my divorce.  Here's a summary of what happened to me versus one concept to avoid lack of compliance.  You lawyer sounds on top of things and so may not have to hold your reports in escrow while waiting for the other party to also comply.

I'll remember that.  I appreciate the advice

No word on the tro yet.  Don't know if that's good or bad.  Not serious enough that a judge pushed it back another day.

She's already rented a house, furnished it, set up utilities and jnternet and has moving boxes.  If this is granted she's gone.

I got the final copy of my response to her tro and the tro I filed.  It reads very well so I am hopefull.  All of the accusations we have documentation to show is not true, except that I'm a drug user, that's her word against mine.  I don't use drugs and she knows it.

As the kids primary care taker, I hope the judge rules for me.

[EyesUp]

Good luck, Mike.

Hopefully the judge can see clearly through the circumstances.  Keep us posted.

No matter what happens at this stage, you have a lot more parenting to look forward to...  either way, stay strong for your kids.  You'll get through this.

[mikejones75093]

So her tro was not granted and mine was.  It's temporary but the kids residence cannot be moved and I did not lose possession.  Big relief

Have a court hearing in a few weeks. 

[ForeverDad]

This is good.  You've gotten a decent start to a practical (less bad) temporary order.  You can breathe a little easier.

But it's not over nor quite won.  Be prepared for anything from sweet talking to undo the divorce and come back all the way to more extreme allegations.  Or the full range from manipulation to demands.  And not just allegations, be prepared not to be caught off guard and framed as a bad guy.  Best not to have in person contact (without a trusted witness) to reduce risk of her claiming how bad you were.  In my divorce process we made child exchanges at the local sheriff's office.  But she still claimed I behaved badly, even there.

The clock is ticking now.  You must behave as though the court is sitting on your shoulder.  No nasty talk, no spiteful words, no revenge, always always behave decently.  You don't have to be overly nice nor enabling, court doesn't care how nice you are, they just want you to behave decently.

[mikejones75093]

This is good.  You've gotten a decent start to a practical (less bad) temporary order.  You can breathe a little easier.

But it's not over nor quite won.  Be prepared for anything from sweet talking to undo the divorce and come back all the way to more extreme allegations.  Or the full range from manipulation to demands.  And not just allegations, be prepared not to be caught off guard and framed as a bad guy.  Best not to have in person contact (without a trusted witness) to reduce risk of her claiming how bad you were.  In my divorce process we made child exchanges at the local sheriff's office.  But she still claimed I behaved badly, even there.

The clock is ticking now.  You must behave as though the court is sitting on your shoulder.  No nasty talk, no spiteful words, no revenge, always always behave decently.  You don't have to be overly nice nor enabling, court doesn't care how nice you are, they just want you to behave decently.

She hasn't moved out yet and I have my phone on record 24/7.  I'm joe Montana cool under pressure right now.  If anything I'm being sweet to her.   Not giving in or letting her control me, but I am being very nice.  She's already called me fake multiple times.  

Now that the kids can't be taken I don't think she will move until the temporary order hearing in a couple of weeks.  From my understanding that will determine a temp custody schedule.  I am hoping since I am their main care taker and she's leaving the house, I get managing conservatoe

[SinisterComplex]

Being Joe Cool is one thing, but you have to go about this Tom Brady Style...maniacally and methodically. Perfection. In essence, just practice being firm and indifferent and keep your eye on the prize.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[mikejones75093]

Being Joe Cool is one thing, but you have to go about this Tom Brady Style...maniacally and methodically. Perfection. In essence, just practice being firm and indifferent and keep your eye on the prize.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Firm and indifferent is the way to go? 

The social media smear campaign fired back up.  She is worried about her physical and mental health.  Seriously?   The last fight I was in was in elementary school.  Families that know our kids are all commenting on her bs posts.  I haven't said anything,  acting like I don't even know they exist, but wow.  Way to false ruin somebody in the community.

[GaGrl]

The social media situation is part of the long game. It's difficult, I know, but the truth will out.

[mikejones75093]

The social media situation is part of the long game. It's difficult, I know, but the truth will out.

I'm hoping.  Normally I get blocked so I can't see.   This time I wasn't.  Think it was a calculated move to bait me into a response.   Acting like I have no idea.

[SaltyDawg]

I'm hoping.  Normally I get blocked so I can't see.   This time I wasn't.  Think it was a calculated move to bait me into a response.   Acting like I have no idea.

You must resist the urge to respond, especially in a negative light.  If you feel that you must respond, use BIFF, and take the high road and say something along the lines of:

"My wife has elected to end our marriage of xx years and has made untrue statements about me.  This is an outcome that I did not expect or want; however, I have to accept.  In the interest of insulating our children from her false allegations, I will not publicly engage in addressing her disparagement of me.  If you would like clarification on any of the untrue statements my wife has made please contact me directly in a private message as it is not my intent to publicly address this very private matter.  Thank you for your time and understanding of this difficult time for our family."

This will serve a few purposes, that you are taking the high road, you will not engage in a public smear campaign like she is, you are casting doubt on the believability of all of her statements if they are true or not, without calling specific attention to a particular statement.  And offering to make clarifications to those who are in doubt.

Be mindful, anything you do or say can and will be used against you in a court of divorce.  You must be on best behavior at all times.  Less is best when it comes to sharing information, don't overshare.  You need to show the court (not her friends) that you are the better parent.  Let her smear you, keep screen shots as evidence of her alienating the kids against you, let her hang herself with her own rope.  However, quietly do damage control, and posting a message like this would be damage control.

You need to be very proactive in this process, and not let her walk all over you like a doormat.

What do you think?

Take care with self-care (including damage control)

SD

[EyesUp]

Personally, I unplugged when I went through this - zero social media posting.

That said, if you are compelled to respond or make some statement, here's a variation on SaltyDog's theme:

"Friends, I am taking a break from social media for the foreseeable future. Please do not hesitate to reach out directly, anytime, especially if you have concerns or questions about any other posts you may see online. Thank you for your understanding and for respecting our privacy at this difficult time for our family."

Of course, find your own voice - but keep in mind:  Anything you post is for your judge. 

Your friends and family and stbx are all secondary audience.  Don't post ANYTHING that isn't written with your judge front and center in your mind, and definitely don't post anything when you have an elevated heart rate.

One day at a time. 

Good job getting through the RO hearing.

[mikejones75093]

You must resist the urge to respond, especially in a negative light.  If you feel that you must respond, use BIFF, and take the high road and say something along the lines of:

"My wife has elected to end our marriage of xx years and has made untrue statements about me.  This is an outcome that I did not expect or want; however, I have to accept.  In the interest of insulating our children from her false allegations, I will not publicly engage in addressing her disparagement of me.  If you would like clarification on any of the untrue statements my wife has made please contact me directly in a private message as it is not my intent to publicly address this very private matter.  Thank you for your time and understanding of this difficult time for our family."

This will serve a few purposes, that you are taking the high road, you will not engage in a public smear campaign like she is, you are casting doubt on the believability of all of her statements if they are true or not, without calling specific attention to a particular statement.  And offering to make clarifications to those who are in doubt.

Be mindful, anything you do or say can and will be used against you in a court of divorce.  You must be on best behavior at all times.  Less is best when it comes to sharing information, don't overshare.  You need to show the court (not her friends) that you are the better parent.  Let her smear you, keep screen shots as evidence of her alienating the kids against you, let her hang herself with her own rope.  However, quietly do damage control, and posting a message like this would be damage control.

You need to be very proactive in this process, and not let her walk all over you like a doormat.

What do you think?

Take care with self-care (including damage control)

SD

I hate social media and never post.  I found out from friends then checked and I wasn't blocked.

I didn't respond,  and haven't even let her know I know.  I'm just calm and cool right now.

[mikejones75093]

Personally, I unplugged when I went through this - zero social media posting.

That said, if you are compelled to respond or make some statement, here's a variation on SaltyDog's theme:

"Friends, I am taking a break from social media for the foreseeable future. Please do not hesitate to reach out directly, anytime, especially if you have concerns or questions about any other posts you may see online. Thank you for your understanding and for respecting our privacy at this difficult time for our family."

Of course, find your own voice - but keep in mind:  Anything you post is for your judge. 

Your friends and family and stbx are all secondary audience.  Don't post ANYTHING that isn't written with your judge front and center in your mind, and definitely don't post anything when you have an elevated heart rate.

One day at a time. 

Good job getting through the RO hearing.

It's funny how people like her can make you feel like a complete piece of crap.  Then you stop and think about it, I don't do anything wrong.   I work, hang out with my kids and go to practices games.  The hardest part is staying calm and not asking what are you thinking.  The calmer I stay it seems the more emotional she becomes, and the more chance for mistakes.

[SaltyDawg]

It's funny how people like her can make you feel like a complete piece of crap.  Then you stop and think about it, I don't do anything wrong.   I work, hang out with my kids and go to practices games.  The hardest part is staying calm and not asking what are you thinking.  The calmer I stay it seems the more emotional she becomes, and the more chance for mistakes.

Don't let her know that she it getting under your skin.  Appear to remain happy and oblivious, and it will make her even more emotional.  She needs to be in control of you, your emotions, and if you aren't giving her any feedback on this it will make her more emotional with bigger chances of mistakes for you to document.  Remaining cool and calm will more than likely work in your favor.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[mikejones75093]

Don't let her know that she it getting under your skin.  Appear to remain happy and oblivious, and it will make her even more emotional.  She needs to be in control of you, your emotions, and if you aren't giving her any feedback on this it will make her more emotional with bigger chances of mistakes for you to document.  Remaining cool and calm will more than likely work in your favor.

Take care with self-care.

SD

I appreciate it.  That is the goal.  I'm calm and cool, completely emotionless right now.  It hasn't hit me.  Once this is all over its going to hurt.  Have a lot of friends and family checking on me daily so that should help.

[SaltyDawg]

I appreciate it.  That is the goal.  I'm calm and cool, completely emotionless right now.  It hasn't hit me.  Once this is all over its going to hurt.  Have a lot of friends and family checking on me daily so that should help.

Sounds like you have an excellent support system, I am not so lucky as mine was successful in isolating me from friends (she accused me of cheating on her with them, so I stopped maintaining those friendships over a decade ago, first the opposite sex, then the same sex ones) - my biggest mistake ever in this relationship - due to her "temporary paranoid thoughts ... triggered by stress", the 9th symptom of BPD.

Take care.

Take care with self care.

[mikejones75093]

Sounds like you have an excellent support system, I am not so lucky as mine was successful in isolating me from friends (she accused me of cheating on her with them, so I stopped maintaining those friendships over a decade ago, first the opposite sex, then the same sex ones) - my biggest mistake ever in this relationship - due to her "temporary paranoid thoughts ... triggered by stress", the 9th symptom of BPD.

Take care.

Take care with self care.

Before I knew what bpd was I thought she was paranoid.  Always thinking people were screwing her over some how.

How is it now?  She still come after you?

[SaltyDawg]

Before I knew what bpd was I thought she was paranoid.  Always thinking people were screwing her over some how.

How is it now?  She still come after you?

For me it was different, before I knew what BPD was, she was transferring and projecting her own insecurities symptoms and traits on to me as being mine - which f**ked with my head.

After my youngest child launches in 6 to 7 years, unless there is full remission as defined by the NIH, I will likely be seeking a divorce.  My wife knows this, and she has been making some progress.

She is partially self-aware.  She knows of more than enough of the symptoms to make a self-diagnosis (5 or more - see below), yet she refuses to see the connection, which is very frustrating for me, as the couple's therapist sees it too, yet won't make a diagnosis (I suspect that they fear chasing the client away) yet we are addressing most of these issues, except where her feelings don't match the facts which results in psychological abuse towards me, which I try to sidestep most of the time instead of being the victim in the drama triangle.

So, yes, she does still come after me on an emotional/psychological/verbal level; however, with a lot of work in the past 15 months, she has made a 1/3 to 1/2 progress in putting her BPD symptoms into remission.  For instance there has been no more suicidal ideation/gestures/attempts since May of 2022.  She no longer comes after me physically in which she hits/punches/kicks me, no more physical violence just passing a year of being DV free just a few days ago. 

Here is a list of the symptoms for BPD, and my personal observations on where she is with each of them.

  Desperate efforts to avoid abandonment (actual or imagined) - Significant reduction in the outward expression of this symptom, still there, but less impactful than it was a year ago.  She is fully self-aware of this symptom as are the therapists.

  Unstable, intense relationships that alternate between idealizing and devaluing the other person - as I have set up firm boundaries, this has shifted to our children, where I setup additional boundaries, and then shifted for the worse with her coworkers (job and volunteer) who she gets triggered by almost on a daily basis as I have created boundaries at home.  At home this has seen significant improvement, the most recent major event took place in March of this year with me, even though it continues at a muted level with our children.  I cannot setup boundaries for people outside of the home; therefore, she will have to continue to suffer the natural consequences of her actions there until she can figure this out.  She is partially self-aware of this symptom and continues to struggle with it.  This has been witnessed first hand by the couple's therapist, a full narcissistic abuse cycle - the look on the therapist's face was priceless when this happened in front of her eyes - I felt very validated, but also disheartened when that happened.

  An unstable self-image or sense of self - with the help of her therapist this has morphed almost into a narcissistic level of having grandiose sense of self, which has stalled her recovery - it is either all or nothing here, and needs to be a shade of gray.  She was self-aware of this, but thinks she has the conquered it, but in reality she hasn't.  For me this is frustrating.

  Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving) - she was much more impulsive in other areas, like anger, and mood swings - there has been improvement in this area.  Partially self-aware of some of the behaviors.  Therapist may be partially aware of this symptom; however, my wife's OCPD offsets the financial abuse aspect of this, and other areas have been reduced.  This is the one set of symptoms that are present, but perhaps not at a disordered level, unlike the others.

  Repeated suicidal behavior and/or gestures or threats or self-mutilation - In preliminary remission since May 2022.  Fully self-aware.  She never had the symptom of 'self-mutilation' this is the only symptom my wife does not have (unless you count biting her fingernails until they are bloody).  Therapists are aware of these symptoms relating to suicidal behaviors.

  Rapid changes in mood, lasting usually only a few hours and rarely more than a few days - Still has these; however, major improvement as it no longer coincides with the 'Problems controlling anger' symptom.  Partially self-aware to make some improvement, but improvement has stalled.  This symptom has morphed from being a few hours to up to 2 days.  The therapist are aware of this symptom but they intentionally downplay it.  I am quite angry it is being discounted when it is so impactful.

  Persistent feelings of emptiness - no perceivable change in this symptom and this is the symptom that is blocking progress in other areas that she is not self-aware.  She is fully self-aware of her feelings of emptiness which manifest in the form of feeling that I do not love her which in turn impedes any further progress towards reconciliation as she feels that she cannot trust me.  Therapists are aware of this symptom as well.

  Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger  Major improvement here, still has inappropriately intense anger (greatly reduced from a few times per day, to a few times per month); however, she no longer has issues controlling anger (in preliminary remission).  She is fully self aware of both of these symptoms.  Therapists are aware of these symptoms and the progress that has been made.

  Temporary paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms triggered by stress - This is the area where her feelings do not match the facts.  Had a major event in the past week to unpack in couple's therapy hopefully to shine a better spotlight to hopefully improve her self-awareness of this symptom of paranoia.  Dissociative symptoms, by definition she cannot be self-aware even though the couple's therapists have repeatedly seen this while in session.


We've come a long way, but still have a long way to go; about 1/3 to 1/2 way there and about 1/2 to 2/3 to go towards complete remission of symptoms.

Initial remission is defined as 2 or more months of 1 or fewer symptoms.
Complete remission is defined as 2 or more years of 2 or fewer symptoms.

I am using both the 2 month and 2 year clinical metrics to evaluate the progress my wife has for each of the symptoms.  Since her therapists have not shared a specific plan on treating my wife, so I feel the need to have to do it myself, as they apparently feel the need to keep me excluded from this, so I have to change what I can and figure out what I cannot change on my own.  My own individual therapist(s), BPD Family, CODA meetings, NAMI meetings, and my related volunteer work have been instrumental in helping me navigate the nearly impossible recovery process of my wife who is not formally diagnosed, but is being treated for some of the individual symptoms, even though she and her therapists are well aware of 5 or more of the symptom groups, the minimum criteria for making a diagnosis.

I am in a different place than you are in the relationship with my wife.  Trying to make it better, but also at the same time in a process of detaching to the point if she does follow through on her divorce threats I won't be quite as hurt, and I am planning on divorce if things don't continue to improve to a point as defined by the NIH where they aught to be. 

Hopefully I answered your question on does she "still come after you" - I was referring to abuse in general.  If you are referring specifically to a smear campaign, I have shut that down with the couple's therapist, as my wife has accused me of child abuse  (that was supposedly witnessed in front of mandated reporters).  The therapist is a former CPS LCSW and was able to shut that down for me when I let my wife hang herself with her own rope in expressing her feelings that did not match the facts which were contradictory to her feelings.  The thing is my wife genuinely believed I was abusing our child (I was disciplining him by removing him by the hand from an assembly at school, in front of the principle and teachers, all mandated reporters, where he was having a hangry tantrum in the 1st grade); however, the couple's therapist determined that there was no basis of child abuse; thereby, effectively shutting down my wife's false narrative based on her genuine feelings I was hurting our child - that is how insidious a borderline's mind will work.  I can foresee that she can also make these false accusations of me, and has done so a few times when she was upset with me - if she makes a false statement like that, I need to come up with an effective strategy to counter those false allegations.

Your wife believes what she is telling her version of the truth when she is sharing with her friends, and that makes it extremely convincing, even though it is a false narrative from your perspective and most reasonable adults.  The court and professionals will focus on the facts behind those feelings to make their rulings and assessments.  Unfortunately, those who are not professionals in this area can be swayed by the convincing feelings of a person with borderline, and that is where damage control aught to be done.  Very targeted, just enough to discredit the false facts, without becoming vindictive towards the person making those impassioned false narratives.  This is how I am handling this abuse, and it takes an excessive amount of energy on my part to manage.

Have questions, please ask.  Otherwise, take care with self-care.  For me that includes looking after my own reputation and doing damage control.

SD

[mikejones75093]

For me it was different, before I knew what BPD was, she was transferring and projecting her own insecurities symptoms and traits on to me as being mine - which f**ked with my head.

After my youngest child launches in 6 to 7 years, unless there is full remission as defined by the NIH, I will likely be seeking a divorce.  My wife knows this, and she has been making some progress.

She is partially self-aware.  She knows of more than enough of the symptoms to make a self-diagnosis (5 or more - see below), yet she refuses to see the connection, which is very frustrating for me, as the couple's therapist sees it too, yet won't make a diagnosis (I suspect that they fear chasing the client away) yet we are addressing most of these issues, except where her feelings don't match the facts which results in psychological abuse towards me, which I try to sidestep most of the time instead of being the victim in the drama triangle.

So, yes, she does still come after me on an emotional/psychological/verbal level; however, with a lot of work in the past 15 months, she has made a 1/3 to 1/2 progress in putting her BPD symptoms into remission.  For instance there has been no more suicidal ideation/gestures/attempts since May of 2022.  She no longer comes after me physically in which she hits/punches/kicks me, no more physical violence just passing a year of being DV free just a few days ago. 

Here is a list of the symptoms for BPD, and my personal observations on where she is with each of them.

  Desperate efforts to avoid abandonment (actual or imagined) - Significant reduction in the outward expression of this symptom, still there, but less impactful than it was a year ago.  She is fully self-aware of this symptom as are the therapists.

  Unstable, intense relationships that alternate between idealizing and devaluing the other person - as I have set up firm boundaries, this has shifted to our children, where I setup additional boundaries, and then shifted for the worse with her coworkers (job and volunteer) who she gets triggered by almost on a daily basis as I have created boundaries at home.  At home this has seen significant improvement, the most recent major event took place in March of this year with me, even though it continues at a muted level with our children.  I cannot setup boundaries for people outside of the home; therefore, she will have to continue to suffer the natural consequences of her actions there until she can figure this out.  She is partially self-aware of this symptom and continues to struggle with it.  This has been witnessed first hand by the couple's therapist, a full narcissistic abuse cycle - the look on the therapist's face was priceless when this happened in front of her eyes - I felt very validated, but also disheartened when that happened.

  An unstable self-image or sense of self - with the help of her therapist this has morphed almost into a narcissistic level of having grandiose sense of self, which has stalled her recovery - it is either all or nothing here, and needs to be a shade of gray.  She was self-aware of this, but thinks she has the conquered it, but in reality she hasn't.  For me this is frustrating.

  Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving) - she was much more impulsive in other areas, like anger, and mood swings - there has been improvement in this area.  Partially self-aware of some of the behaviors.  Therapist may be partially aware of this symptom; however, my wife's OCPD offsets the financial abuse aspect of this, and other areas have been reduced.  This is the one set of symptoms that are present, but perhaps not at a disordered level, unlike the others.

  Repeated suicidal behavior and/or gestures or threats or self-mutilation - In preliminary remission since May 2022.  Fully self-aware.  She never had the symptom of 'self-mutilation' this is the only symptom my wife does not have (unless you count biting her fingernails until they are bloody).  Therapists are aware of these symptoms relating to suicidal behaviors.

  Rapid changes in mood, lasting usually only a few hours and rarely more than a few days - Still has these; however, major improvement as it no longer coincides with the 'Problems controlling anger' symptom.  Partially self-aware to make some improvement, but improvement has stalled.  This symptom has morphed from being a few hours to up to 2 days.  The therapist are aware of this symptom but they intentionally downplay it.  I am quite angry it is being discounted when it is so impactful.

  Persistent feelings of emptiness - no perceivable change in this symptom and this is the symptom that is blocking progress in other areas that she is not self-aware.  She is fully self-aware of her feelings of emptiness which manifest in the form of feeling that I do not love her which in turn impedes any further progress towards reconciliation as she feels that she cannot trust me.  Therapists are aware of this symptom as well.

  Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger  Major improvement here, still has inappropriately intense anger (greatly reduced from a few times per day, to a few times per month); however, she no longer has issues controlling anger (in preliminary remission).  She is fully self aware of both of these symptoms.  Therapists are aware of these symptoms and the progress that has been made.

  Temporary paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms triggered by stress - This is the area where her feelings do not match the facts.  Had a major event in the past week to unpack in couple's therapy hopefully to shine a better spotlight to hopefully improve her self-awareness of this symptom of paranoia.  Dissociative symptoms, by definition she cannot be self-aware even though the couple's therapists have repeatedly seen this while in session.


We've come a long way, but still have a long way to go; about 1/3 to 1/2 way there and about 1/2 to 2/3 to go towards complete remission of symptoms.

Initial remission is defined as 2 or more months of 1 or fewer symptoms.
Complete remission is defined as 2 or more years of 2 or fewer symptoms.

I am using both the 2 month and 2 year clinical metrics to evaluate the progress my wife has for each of the symptoms.  Since her therapists have not shared a specific plan on treating my wife, so I feel the need to have to do it myself, as they apparently feel the need to keep me excluded from this, so I have to change what I can and figure out what I cannot change on my own.  My own individual therapist(s), BPD Family, CODA meetings, NAMI meetings, and my related volunteer work have been instrumental in helping me navigate the nearly impossible recovery process of my wife who is not formally diagnosed, but is being treated for some of the individual symptoms, even though she and her therapists are well aware of 5 or more of the symptom groups, the minimum criteria for making a diagnosis.

I am in a different place than you are in the relationship with my wife.  Trying to make it better, but also at the same time in a process of detaching to the point if she does follow through on her divorce threats I won't be quite as hurt, and I am planning on divorce if things don't continue to improve to a point as defined by the NIH where they aught to be. 

Hopefully I answered your question on does she "still come after you" - I was referring to abuse in general.  If you are referring specifically to a smear campaign, I have shut that down with the couple's therapist, as my wife has accused me of child abuse  (that was supposedly witnessed in front of mandated reporters).  The therapist is a former CPS LCSW and was able to shut that down for me when I let my wife hang herself with her own rope in expressing her feelings that did not match the facts which were contradictory to her feelings.  The thing is my wife genuinely believed I was abusing our child (I was disciplining him by removing him by the hand from an assembly at school, in front of the principle and teachers, all mandated reporters, where he was having a hangry tantrum in the 1st grade); however, the couple's therapist determined that there was no basis of child abuse; thereby, effectively shutting down my wife's false narrative based on her genuine feelings I was hurting our child - that is how insidious a borderline's mind will work.  I can foresee that she can also make these false accusations of me, and has done so a few times when she was upset with me - if she makes a false statement like that, I need to come up with an effective strategy to counter those false allegations.

Your wife believes what she is telling her version of the truth when she is sharing with her friends, and that makes it extremely convincing, even though it is a false narrative from your perspective and most reasonable adults.  The court and professionals will focus on the facts behind those feelings to make their rulings and assessments.  Unfortunately, those who are not professionals in this area can be swayed by the convincing feelings of a person with borderline, and that is where damage control aught to be done.  Very targeted, just enough to discredit the false facts, without becoming vindictive towards the person making those impassioned false narratives.  This is how I am handling this abuse, and it takes an excessive amount of energy on my part to manage.

Have questions, please ask.  Otherwise, take care with self-care.  For me that includes looking after my own reputation and doing damage control.

SD

Ok didn't realize you're still together.  Coming after you I meant try and control even though you were apart.  Mine tells me the only reason I want to be with her is because she's easy to control. Hahaha wow.  Shes never been controlled.   Not only that,  we are in the middle of divorce and right after telling me she's controlled proceeded to give me a list of things im not allowed to do, wow.  Dont know what dealing with this person will be like after divorce sharing kids

I know if I didn't have kids I would be gone.  My back and forth is,  do you stay for the kids, and there are a lot of different answers.  I have an adult son who has been in the trenches with me and knows all about his mom.  We joke that she always needs someone to argue with,  and if she's arguing with one of us, the other is on good terms with her.  My concern is, if I'm not there to take the blows she will take it out on the kids.  Also borderlines don't like to be alone, how soon before she moves in some guy to help pay her bills, and really what kind of a person is this?  Scares me to think the kids might be around this.

[ForeverDad]

My concern is, if I'm not there to take the blows she will take it out on the kids.  Also borderlines don't like to be alone, how soon before she moves in some guy to help pay her bills, and really what kind of a person is this?  Scares me to think the kids might be around this.

Everything about our lives involves seeking a balance.  (What follows is a generic scenario and may apply to you only in part.)  You're concerned about your spouse turning their abusive or warped projections onto your kids if you're not there to monitor.  Well, news flash.  You're probably already leaving the kids in spouse's care some of the time in your daily activities.  Do you go to the gym, go shopping, visit friends, take your vehicle to the repair shop, go to work, etc?  See?

Remember I mentioned balance, right?  Well, consider that your parenting example also influences the children.  What if the kids see you appeasing, twisting yourself into knots, struggling on so many things daily?  That's not an example of what a healthy home environment should be.  There's a decades old quip I found.

And for the children to see this discord all the time isn't good for them even if it's not directed at them.  Children learn by example.  If this dysfunctional example is their home life growing up, what life choices will they make seeking relationships when they're grown and gone?

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

On the topic of being cast as a controller by a spouse projecting her own control impulses... My then-stbEx's lawyer was pretty slick, almost caught me off guard with what I later concluded was a trick question.

When I had first separated, my then-spouse burnt all bridges.  In family court her lawyer asked me, "Do you want her back?"  Somehow I sensed it as a trick question, if I said "Yes" then he would turn to the magistrate and excitedly proclaim, "See? He's a controller. He wants her back under his control."  Instead I replied, "No, not as she is."

Yet, I had not "given up and left her" until there was no other option.  By nature we here were not and are not controllers.  Yes, we don't give up hastily, we do try to help, endlessly, but it's not in a controlling way, no matter how much the other spouse may claim.

I'm fairly sure your question was triggered by your spouse's spiteful words, right?  There's a word for that... Projection.  If that's what your spouse is claiming, then she is projecting her perceptions and actions onto you, in a way, Blame Shifting.

[mikejones75093]

Everything about our lives involves seeking a balance.  (What follows is a generic scenario and may apply to you only in part.)  You're concerned about your spouse turning their abusive or warped projections onto your kids if you're not there to monitor.  Well, news flash.  You're probably already leaving the kids in spouse's care some of the time in your daily activities.  Do you go to the gym, go shopping, visit friends, take your vehicle to the repair shop, go to work, etc?  See?

Remember I mentioned balance, right?  Well, consider that your parenting example also influences the children.  What if the kids see you appeasing, twisting yourself into knots, struggling on so many things daily?  That's not an example of what a healthy home environment should be.  There's a decades old quip I found.

On the topic of being cast as a controller by a spouse projecting her own control impulses... My then-stbEx's lawyer was pretty slick, almost caught me off guard with what I later concluded was a trick question.

Good stuff.  Just trying to stay strong.  The thought of bring alone or having to date again sounds horrible.   Maybe I'm holding on because of my own fears.

[SaltyDawg]

Ok didn't realize you're still together.  Coming after you I meant try and control even though you were apart.  Mine tells me the only reason I want to be with her is because she's easy to control. Hahaha wow.  Shes never been controlled.   Not only that,  we are in the middle of divorce and right after telling me she's controlled proceeded to give me a list of things im not allowed to do, wow.  Dont know what dealing with this person will be like after divorce sharing kids

I know if I didn't have kids I would be gone.  My back and forth is,  do you stay for the kids, and there are a lot of different answers.  I have an adult son who has been in the trenches with me and knows all about his mom.  We joke that she always needs someone to argue with,  and if she's arguing with one of us, the other is on good terms with her.  My concern is, if I'm not there to take the blows she will take it out on the kids.  Also borderlines don't like to be alone, how soon before she moves in some guy to help pay her bills, and really what kind of a person is this?  Scares me to think the kids might be around this.

Yes, we are still together, she has made significant progress, even though it appears to have stalled for the moment, but it is not regressing.

Regarding the control issues, my wife knows she is a controller.  I have labelled her a 'control freak' and she begrudgingly 'owns it', and most of her job titles that she has held in the past have the word 'controller' in it.

She has attempted to say I am a controller her; however, each time she does that - I ask her a pointed question on who made such and such choice - it is her.  When she ask me to make decisions, I do, and then she immediately overrides these decisions, as long as they don't have negative impacts, I let her.

If we were to get divorced, my wife would want to control every aspect of it.  They are so out of control of their own emotions, so whatever, they can control provides them with emotional comfort, and if they cannot control it, it induces anxiety.

The primary reason why I am still with my wife is for the kids, here is a quote from another thread I made:

   The primary reason why I'm still in this relationship is my wife had already telegraphed she would get really mean with her false narratives (starting with false allegations of child abuse, which I have had our couple's therapist already debunk as she is a former CPS (child protective services) LCSW (licensed clinical social worker) - while my wife's feelings were real [to her] when I was disciplining my then 1st grader in front of teachers and the principle at a school program (all of whom are mandated reporters, and didn't report since there was nothing to report) to lead him firmly out of the cafeteria by the hand under my 1st grader's protests to stop the interruption of the program - the couple's therapist did not see any issue and said my wife's allegation would have been 'unfounded' if CPS evaluated it.  Fortunately 3 out of the 4 allegations she has accused me of were in front of mandated reporters where there were around embarrassing behaviors, so she was all stressed out which put her emotions feeling into wild state of over-exaggeration that feels real to her. 

   She has also made other false accusations about me towards her as well, such as DV, which is untrue, and I am recording many of our heated discussions should they come to light, I have irrefutable evidence to the contrary.  So it is a huge F, in the Fear, Obligation, and Guilt that I am remaining in the relationship as I do not want to ruin any more of our children's childhood anymore that it already has been done, and continue to repair it.

   Due to the speed of divorce litigation where I live, I do not want to engage in divorce at the moment as that will most likely result in severe dysregulation directed against our children by my wife (she has shown signs, and I am running interception on this, and setting and enforcing boundaries around this).  Also, my wife has indicated a willingness to work towards bettering the relationship, even though it has stalled at the moment and needs to resume. 

   If she were to escalate other false narratives it would be devastating to our children as well as myself as her impassioned over-exaggerated statements are very believable unless closely evaluated - but then the damage would already be done for months if not years down the road where my name would eventually be cleared.  I am also maneuvering our finances to reduce the financial hit of our co-mingled monies should divorce occur in order to make the playing field a little more level.  It is unfortunate that the 'kangaroo' court system of family law imposes this outcome on men unless it is overabundant-ly clear my wife has a mental illness, which her therapists will not do, even though all of her behaviors and symptoms indicate otherwise.

   At least until my children are out of the house and in college, I can work (within) the system to become a larger positive force in each of their lives (full-time parenting vs 50% or less parenting) and minimize the damage caused by my wife, and help her become aware of this damage (her therapists are instrumental in this).  I am working with my children to have them become more self-sufficient, so if we do separate, they will have some idea what to do instead of 'no-clue'.  My D gets it, my S is still a work in progress.

To summarize, my children are better off, at least right now, until they are out of the house, one is leaving in 1-2 years, the other in 6-7, and having my wife reasonably stable with a few episode a month instead of totally unhinged on a daily basis with my children being her target of blame and taking it out on them is preferable course of action for my children.

If there were a divorce, the kids remainder of their childhood would be destroyed, additional healing likely not occur, and it would make a bad situation worse, for my scenario.

Right now I am rewriting the computer program for my own version of Capt. Kirk's "Kobayashi Maru" no-win scenario to do the least amount of damage to our children, before I order the self-destruct of our marriage if the programming is unsuccessful, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru for more details. 

I do NOT want the children to sustain excessive collateral damage, if I were to engage in a divorce right now, as it is my wife's intent to improve and she is on relatively mostly good behavior right now with occasional lapses.  Having them leave the home emotionally scarred with healing, and bandaged is the preferred outcome to severe damage.

I am also getting the children out of the house as much as possible, and in situations where they can see other parents interact in much healthier ways - this would likely not happen if we were separated going through a nasty divorce.  I am working with them on recognizing patterns, as my D now has a boyfriend who is in a very similar situation that she finds herself, except her BF's mother is divorced untreated living with a new supply.  Both my D and her bf are codependent parentified children, with the difference one of the two mothers is being treated (my uBPDw) and there is a stark difference between my D and her bf - I can see first hand that this is the better course of action for my family dynamic until all children are out of the house in another 6-7 years.

Take care with self care.

SaltyDawg

----

P.S.

FD, I would like you to weigh in on this, as I would like an outside 3rd perspective, to challenge what I have done in my situation, as I suspect it might be an ultra-rare exception to the rule as I have turned things around by imposing firm boundaries, and standing up to get things moving in a more positive than negative direction by doing this under the guidance of her individual therapist, my individual therapist, a couple's therapist, and attending CODA and NAMI meetings in addition to other thins.  Neither direction is a good one; however, I feel, from observation, it is  less worse one of the two possible choices in my situation of should I stay or should I go.  Your opinion please?

[Notwendy]

I don't think we can know the path not taken. My parents stayed together. Was it better that they did? I can't know this because, there's not a way to know how things would have been if they divorced.

The topic of divorce came up frequently as my BPD mother would threaten it. I first recall hearing it at about age 9 or 10 during one of their fights. These were scary. Lots of yelling and screaming. BPD mother would trash the house. The idea of divorce was scary to me at that age.

By the time we were teens, it was more like "just do it already". If they were going to fight like this, what was the point. But this was also from a naive perspective. I had no clue what was involved in a marital relationship. At the time, custody would have gone to my mother. I would have been very vocal about wanting to live with my father if this had happened. I had a better relationship with my father. I actually prefered the idea of divorce, staying with him, and getting away from her. I looked forward to college.

Since BPD mother brought it up, I did ask my father why they didn't divorce and his answer was "because of the kids" and the custody laws at the time. This was believable and likely a main reason but it was not the only reason because, we kids grew up, left home, and they stayed together.

The answer then became "divorce is too expensive" which is true also but so was staying with my mother because of her uncontrolled spending so that didn't quite make sense.

These were reasons but there had to be more. One is that he was the other half of the dynamics and as much a part of them as she is. I didn't realize the extent of his co-dependency until a counselor refered me to work on my own co-dependent tendencies. In my family, this was the example of "normal". I knew BPD mother's behavior wasn't "normal" so I looked to my father as a role model. His positive qualities were impressive- so mostly these were good examples, but enabling BPD mother was the "norm" for us.

I think he fell completely in love with her. She was beautiful. At the time they married, not much was known about BPD. Like people have mentioned, when she's in her good mood, she could be amazing, but her other moods are difficult. I think he didn't know what to do for much of their marriage and so did what he thought he needed to do. She did have therapy but it was not effective as she herself doesn't believe there's anything wrong on her part.

Lastly, I think he knew how impaired she was and I think he felt an obligation to not let her fend for herself. He did a good job of caretaking her and her behavior was mostly only apparent to us as immediate family. I knew she was disordered but now that I am relating to her as an adult, I can see how severely impacted she is by her BPD. Having been enabled, she has a strong sense of entitlement.

Ironically- Dad was such a good caretaker that she remained dependent -so did that help the situation or not? Could she have learned different skills had she not been enabled in this manner? That's the other "road not taken". What if BPD mother had not been enabled to such an extent? What if there were boundaries and consequences to her behavior? What if Dad left and she had to adjust?

I don't think I would have blamed Dad for leaving her if he had done that. Maybe as a kid I would not have understood it but I could see the relationship was difficult and would wish the best for him. I don't know if it would have been better for us kids or not.

But the main point here is that- "staying for the kids" is a reason but it may not be the only reason. While the plan to stay for another 6 or 7 years is a reason that works for you, it makes the kids the reason, not the relationship. It takes the focus off the real reason for wanting to stay or leave. I think it's a bit of a safety valve for being unhappy in the relationship but having a noble reason to stay. Not that it isn't noble, it is- but there is possibly more to the decision than "for the kids".

[SinisterComplex]

Firm and indifferent is the way to go?  

The social media smear campaign fired back up.  She is worried about her physical and mental health.  Seriously?   The last fight I was in was in elementary school.  Families that know our kids are all commenting on her bs posts.  I haven't said anything,  acting like I don't even know they exist, but wow.  Way to false ruin somebody in the community.

Using a firm and indifferent approach allows things to be prevented from escalating. The less emotionally charged conversations are the better. You are being pushed to see if you will break and give in. It is purely a control move. You not having composure and reacting emotionally gives her the power and control she wants.

You not saying anything is the best course of action.

To provide you an example of how this situation is...there was a press conference quite a while ago where David Stern the NBA Commissioner at the time was asked a question by the reporter Jim Rome about the NBA fixing the draft lottery. David Stern responded with a loaded question in response to Jim Rome of have you stopped beating your wife yet?

The point with this psychology here has nothing to do with abuse actually and instead is all about putting your opponent in an unwinnable and untenable position. The allegation spoken aloud is power all by itself. If you respond you lose no matter what. You essentially incriminate yourself just by even giving it the time of day and participating.  

Now she may not be this psychologically adept or evolved, but the game is being played the same way. So you have to be on guard.

So again...be firm and indifferent. Make sense?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[mikejones75093]

Using a firm and indifferent approach allows things to be prevented from escalating. The less emotionally charged conversations are the better. You are being pushed to see if you will break and give in. It is purely a control move. You not having composure and reacting emotionally gives her the power and control she wants.

You not saying anything is the best course of action.

To provide you an example of how this situation is...there was a press conference quite a while ago where David Stern the NBA Commissioner at the time was asked a question by the reporter Jim Rome about the NBA fixing the draft lottery. David Stern responded with a loaded question in response to Jim Rome of have you stopped beating your wife yet?

The point with this psychology here has nothing to do with abuse actually and instead is all about putting your opponent in an unwinnable and untenable position. The allegation spoken aloud is power all by itself. If you respond you lose no matter what. You essentially incriminate yourself just by even giving it the time of day and participating.  

Now she may not be this psychologically adept or evolved, but the game is being played the same way. So you have to be on guard.

So again...be firm and indifferent. Make sense?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

If I don't give her the control she wants,  what's the end game?  Does she keep escalating until she blows up?   The more I read about this the more I'm asking myself what the hell I'm even doing being around her.

[SinisterComplex]

What is your end game? What are your goals? What would you like to happen. Ultimately, this is up to you. For you being around her...well I will just offer up trust your own instincts and judgment.

She is going to throw the kitchen sink at you. Just be prepared for it and don't engage. It won't be easy no, but you have to be firm and indifferent. If asked a question a simple yes or no...no emotion one way or the other. She will try to smear you and it will upset you and get under your skin...go about your business and do not react to it. If you give it life it will only get worse.

Odds are she will try to escalate into a blow up, but if you keep your composure and hold the line so to speak she will eventually run out of steam.

Her endgame...there isn't one. It is pure emotion and wanting to put all the weight on you. She just wants to rope you in and make you responsible for everything. It is the mentality that it is all your fault for the feelings she feels. She cannot take accountability. She cannot face shame or guilt. All of it has to be dropped on you. So protect yourself and don't feed the monster.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[SinisterComplex]

Locked thread due to reaching post limit. Splitting off into a new thread which you can find here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357262.msg13205270#msg13205270