Sibling sabotage

[RRRJCCCN]

Has anyone else had a borderline child seem to purposely poison your relationship with their siblings?
I’m interested in how anyone has dealt with it, if your adult  borderline child seems to be purposefully sabotaging your relationship with their siblings?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[HappyChappy]

Triangulation is a common way to do this.  I.e. one person is always the Golden child, another is always the scapegoat, and it doesn't relate to people's behaviour, which is what makes it feel so unfair - yet a highly effective mechanism for divide and conquer. If someone is scapegoated, others often sit behind the bully - because they're scared it might be them that get's targeted or they just believe they are the golden one. The scapegoat get resentful and plays up - providing "proof" they're the problem. Racists often use this method.

[kells76]

Hi RRRJCCCN and welcome to the group  You must be going through a lot with your BPD child and other children right now. This is definitely a place that "gets it" about how difficult it is to be a parent and have a family when BPD is in the mix.

One thing that has struck me about pwBPD (persons with BPD, whether diagnosed or not) is that they struggle with "all or nothing" type thinking -- very "if you get more then I must get less", "if there's more pie for you there's less for me" thinking, and this shows up in relationships.

Instead of having the lenses to see that love isn't a zero sum game, they seem to see relationships as referenda on "who is up/who is down", "who is loved/who isn't loved", "who is good/who is bad".

There can also be "loyalty binds" or "loyalty tests" -- "if you love him it means you don't love me, so pick -- him or me".

These are really difficult and damaging lenses.

It wouldn't surprise me if your child wBPD is acting out the disorder in that way with the siblings: "If I'm on the outs with Mom or Dad, then you need to be, too -- after all, you have to pick them or me, and there isn't enough love to go around".

...

It can take some non-intuitive moves to get out of the unhealthy drama triangles that pwBPD seem to intentionally create -- but it's possible.

How old are your kids? And how has your relationship with your non-BPD kids been?

[cross posted with above -- guess we both had drama triangles on our minds!]

[zachira]

In my family, on both sides there are scapegoated and golden siblings. On one side of the family, there are six generations of this. I am one of the family scapegoats. The people in my family who do this have a mixture of borderline and narcissistic traits, along with being flying monkeys, people who enable the abuse of others. I do think that people with BPD often only exist within their own distorted version of reality and view people as the enemy who do not enable their disordered thoughts and behaviors.

[RRRJCCCN]

Thank you for these replies and encouragement.
I was pretty gutted and discouraged this last week. More so than for a while.

[RRRJCCCN]

Thank you for these replies and encouragement.
I was pretty gutted and discouraged this last week. More so than for a while.
It feels so hopeless sometimes, and I am not referring to not wanting to live hopeless, just to ever not have to live with the anxiety and dread of what might be next.
I have been slowly working on setting boundaries over the last few years, but I always question myself.
It helps to hear from people that are and have been dealing with BPD people also as no one else can comprehend what it is like.
I feel like I sound like the crazy one sometimes when I have tried to explain something that has happened, or that I am an uncaring mother.

[zachira]

You might want to google "flying monkeys".

[Cait]

I am the sibling of a brother with BPD and can say from experience this happens all the time. My brother has difficult relationships with everyone in his life and has an especially hard time with me, his sister. I can't totally understand the reason but a part of me thinks it's because subconsciously he knows that my very existence threatens his victim alternative reality. He has a laundry list of grievances towards my parents, how they did this and that and they are at fault for why he is the way he is. And yet, me, his only sibling, lives a normal and happy life and came from the same parenting environment. It must feel threatening and hard to reconcile.

I try to downplay my own happiness and any semblance of success because he does not handle it well at all. I've learned to share very little details of my life with him. He will unload on my parents for hours about me and I feel hurt that they accommodate this. So far the relationship I have with my parents is still in tact, but my brother puts an incredible strain on it.

[RRRJCCCN]

Cait,
Thank you so
I much for that insight!
I feel there are some parallels with my daughter and your brother.
It is so nice to hear from people that live this craziness also.

[CC43]

Cait, you nailed it.  As a high-functioning sibling, you not only make your brother jealous, but your existence threatens to pierce his veil of victimhood.  I imagine he tries to punish you for that.

I have a stepdaughter with diagnosed BPD.  I could write pages on her behaviors, ranging from an excessively negative outlook, to blaming extended family and friends for her own poor decisions, to twisting fact patterns to suit her victimhood status, to lashing out and threatening family members, to attempting suicide (or hinting about suicide) whenever she doesn't get her way.  I am astounded at the lengths she'll go to in order to perpetuate her twisted version of events and justify her rages.  She has gone no-contact with her siblings and parents more times than I can count.

Now with the holidays coming, there's a significant chance she won't participate, because the presence of siblings and extended family is supposedly a "trigger" for her (and avoidance is her main coping strategy).  However, I think the underlying issue is that she's jealous and ashamed, and when she feels that way, she rages.  She can't handle normal questions like, "How are you?" or "What have you been up to lately?" because she hasn't achieved typical adult milestones like graduating, holding a job, having a romantic relationship or living independently, whereas her siblings and some younger cousins have achieved these things.  And when we converse with the siblings about their lives (and accomplishments), she fumes with jealousy.  Moreover, her attitude is very negative, so she can't find anything good to say about her own life, let alone be happy for other family members.  And rather than take responsibility for her life, she'll blame others, play the victim and spew hatred to extended family.  Frankly I dread seeing her, and I'm angry about her behavior, and yet I feel terrible about that.

[RRRJCCCN]

Cait and CC43,
"I try to downplay my own happiness and any semblance of success because he does not handle it well at all".  I have to be careful I don't sound to proud or happy for my other children or she gets sulky or nasty. It is so sad we have to do that. You seem very insightful and I am sorry you have to carry that burden with you.
      and
"Frankly I dread seeing her, and I'm angry about her behavior, and yet I feel terrible about that."
     I get it! I felt so depressed and hopeless when I realized I am dreading my daughter's visit home at Thanksgiving. That is just sad, but it is true, and I feel like a terrible mom admitting it.
   I think these two issues are what set me in a tailspin of hopelessness the other day after a  couple months of "things are going well" feelings. I just felt "done" and the feeling is lingering around.
I feel more "done" than guilt or sadness at this time.
   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CoffeeFirst]

Absolutely.
My bpd 21 yo daughter has estranged herself from all of her family, all generations, every school friend, every person who knew and cared for her in her first 19 years.

She randomnly lashes out at her brother on social media. Portraying him as the golden child who received everything, and herself as the scapegoat, neglected waif, starved of affection and sustenance.
Absolute nonsense. She was deeply loved and supported. And I think she knows this, as she gives clear specific examples of how she was “done wrong” by us in the year she turned 18 (and became very disregulated and unwell) and yet no specifics from her childhood and teen years. Just “unloved, unsupported, scapegoat”. I somethimes think she would actually prefer that she had been beaten daily or called abusive names or that we had favoured her brother.

And I think that Cait’s reply is insightful.
The existence of a sibling who refutes the narrative that her parents were cold, abusive, never loved or supported her, threatens the victim identity that is now core to her self understanding.
He does not look at her social media any more because the incidents of sudden provoked viciousness distressed him tremendously. As did her regular excoriations of us.
Next time he raises her behaviour, I will share Cait’s thought because I think they may help him understand why she does this.

[Randi Kreger]

In my family, on both sides there are scapegoated and golden siblings. On one side of the family, there are six generations of this. I am one of the family scapegoats. The people in my family who do this have a mixture of borderline and narcissistic traits, along with being flying monkeys, people who enable the abuse of others. I do think that people with BPD often only exist within their own distorted version of reality and view people as the enemy who do not enable their disordered thoughts and behaviors.

You’re right. People with borderline and narcissistic personality disorders live in an alternate reality that only they understand. They have specific needs, and the number one need of the person with BPD is you never threaten to abandon them, which is impossible because they read it into everything. They feel such a sense of shame that they literally don’t understand why other people are friends with them. They may even look down upon somebody who is nice to them because clearly they don’t know how defective they are.

The number one in need of the narcissist is narcissistic supply, which is attention, admiration, and anything that feeds their ego – and they need their ego fed a lot because when you pile narcissistic supply in a fireplace, the fire burns out of control very quickly, and as soon as you can imagine, they need a new fireplace full of narcissistic supply.

In their alternative reality, there are threats all over the place, and the only way they can get a head of them is to always be on the lookout for anything that might hurt them, which is when they rage, argue, point out your shortcomings, Etc.

We know that about people with those personality disorders. But still, we all expect our high conflict, family members to be logical, nice, thoughtful, giving, willing to compromise and so forth.

——— it isn’t so much their behavior that bothers us as much as it is that their behavior doesn’t meet with your desires—————

If you practice radical acceptance, and except your disordered relative, for who they are, you will stop expecting them to be something different, and will stop becoming always disappointed.

[beatricex]

Randi,
Love it love it love it, thank you for that succinct explanation.  This is why I've read your book and use it as a "primer" when I get discouraged. 

kells76,
I shared what you wrote with my husband.  First time I have shown this board to him ever, because what you wrote was so well written.  Thank u too.

 

b