Do I let my BPD mom have a relationship with my kids

[SurfingToFreedom]

I just had my second child and have a lot of concerns about letting my mom have a relationship with her grandchildren. 

My mom has undiagnosed BPD. She has become more unhinged as she's gotten older and it is very hard for her to hide her mental health struggles at this point. But a random person talking to her would think she was overly intense (a bit much), had a lot of woo-woo beliefs, and was quick to panic about pretty mundane events. 

I on the other hand have years of trauma from being raised by her and can barely talk to her without being triggered. My SO thinks that talking to her is unpleasant, and finds her annoying, frustrating, and generally overwhelming.

I'm struggling to see a world where I can have a relationship with my mom without also allowing her to have a relationship with her grandkids.  I think this would ultimately become an impasse. It would be very difficult for me to see the pain my mom is in about not having a relationship with her grandkids and hold that boundary.

Ultimately, my mom lives on the other side of the country from us and is bad at traveling so having her come over for a week or two every few years, while horrible for us, might be nice for the kids.  My mom has the maturity of a toddler so she does get along well with kids. 

Would love to hear from other people with BPD family members on whether or not you allow them to have a relationship with your kids, overall what your experience has been, and generally anything you want to share about how you're handling the situation.  Thanks.

[Notwendy]

I think your first priority is to protect your children.

In my situation, I was attached to my (deceased) father and my kids had a wonderful relationship with him. Since he and my mother were married- she was also included. There was not a way to have a relationship with only him and not include her.

To focus on the relationship - I'd say my father had a relationship with my children. My mother visited with them but their interactions were different and my kids don't have the same attachment to her.

To a parent with a PD- the child is expected to meet their needs- but the role of a parent is to meet the child's needs. . She would visit, but mostly observe. It was Dad who got on the floor with them and played with them when they were little, read them stories, as they got older, they had conversations about school, a subject they liked. He showed interest in them. The quality of my mother's interactions were to learn information about them and share this with her family and friends.

When it comes to the concept of protecting the children- there are several considerations. Would she be physically dangerous to them? No, but she isn't someone I would trust to watch a young child and be attentive to their safety. My main boundary with her was that I didn't ever leave her alone with them. I, or another adult, would be there.

Would she act up or cause a scene? Not if someone else was there too, so that boundary helped with that.

Would she use them as emotional caretakers for her and be emotionally manipulative with them? Yes. So ironically, once they were teens, I didn't worry about their safety with her. They weren't toddlers who needed to be watched. However, once they became "useful" to her the situation was not emotionally safe for them. I could not control what kinds of things she'd say to them. I could see her enlisting them as emotional caretakers and also possibly triangulating them against me.

That's when I began to have other boundaries- not have them be alone with her even as teens, limit visits. They also were OK with this as they felt some discomfort around her.
They are adults now and I leave it to them to decide how much contact to have with her and they don't want a lot of contact with her. We call her on occasion as a family on holidays. When we do visit as a family, it's chaotic and lots of drama and manipulation on her part.

I have mixed feelings about the situation. On one hand, I don't want my kids to get the idea that it is OK to neglect an elderly parent, but also with my mother, boundaries are necessary. They now understand the situation better. They have seen me try. They have seen her behavior and how she treats me and others. They see me wobbling on that balance beam of doing what I can while protecting my own boundaries.

Could I have a relationship with my mother and not allow her to have a relationship with my kids? Actually, if she had her preference - she'd have an exclusive relationship with just them and she's attempted to do that. At one point, when they were teens and had cell phones, I didn't give her their number, or their addresses at college- she'd contact them on her own and I didn't trust her to not triangulate (against me)with them. She got their numbers by asking other people for them.

IMHO, trying to have a relationship with your mother and not let her have one with your kids would be a constant conflict between the two of you. Maybe possible when they are small, but as they get older, she may try to contact them. I think you do need to have some boundaries you can manage- whatever they are. Mine has been "my kids will not be alone with her".

You may also have to have different boundaries depending on the ages of the children. I think your concerns are valid. Your role is to protect them from harm- emotional and physical.

[SurfingToFreedom]

Wow, thank you for that detailed response.  You have given me a lot to think about.

[livednlearned]

SurfingToFreedom,

It's good that you're thinking about the well-being of your kids and trying to find a path where they can be safe, you can have peace of mind, and your mom can have some kind of relationship, even if it's limited.

My mother is an adult child and I'm not sure she has full-blown BPD. Whatever she has, she wasn't able to demonstrate that she was a safe grandparent. For her, grandparenting seemed to be more about her and what other people thought. She was never able to really connect in a meaningful way with my son, although she did do better when he was elementary years to some extent. I think they were more like peers. When he was a baby she was downright dangerous.

When he was a baby she locked the car with the keys in it. She was at a gas station and it was 100 degrees out and it's hard to piece together what really happened because she was so defensive by the time EMT contacted me. Where we lived it's illegal to even leave dogs in cars so I suspect someone at the gas station called 911. I only know it wasn't my mother because she was so irate that someone "overreacted."

Another time she became so pushy to take care of my son and I gave in because she could be relentless, especially with other pathologic family dynamics present. I wasn't gone long but in that short period of time she laid down on the couch to nap (my son was a year old). He wandered outside where they had a pool. I've gotten much better about not giving in when she insists but it took years to find a way. Hopefully you won't waste years second-guessing yourself. 

Another time she lost him at a mall and blamed other people. I guess strangers are responsible for keeping an eye on my son when she's in charge.

It helps me make sense of my own childhood. I know it's not uncommon to have near brushes when you're a child but after watching her with my son I realize she just can't access the full suite of abilities, skills, and inclinations needed for adulthood.

When my son was 11, I remember a moment where it became clear he outgrew her. She was trying to goof around with him and he didn't want to join in, so she kind of bullied him. He repeated what he said: No, he didn't want to participate. So she started to taunt him and I remember so clearly the look of repulsion on his face. After that he kind of blocked her and to this day they have a strained relationship.

If I were to do it all over again, I would not allow my son to be alone with her, no matter what age. If I could've afforded it, I would have her stay in a hotel. I would've also done a better job helping my son advocate for himself instead of prioritizing manners and her feelings over his. I was raised to obey older people no matter what and manners came first. However, in retrospect this put me in harms way and let rude people get away with things at my expense.

My son is 22 now and I'm very candid with him about his grandmother. When we visit my parents, it's brief and we stay elsewhere. I stay close by so he has an ally in case she starts up. We try to not have them stay with us when they visit but that's been harder to do. When they do stay, I've told my son to lock his door since she has no respect for privacy.

After visits, I also let S22 talk about the encounter because usually there's been an odd if not aggravating encounter and a debrief can help him make sense of her. He's very polite and courteous with her, but is very perfunctory and doesn't indulge her. As a result, my mother sometimes tries to pick a fight as though he's a sibling and they're 8 years old.

My biggest regret is that I let her bully me into babysitting. If you don't want your mom to be alone with your kids, I would think about deflections that help you thread that needle. "I really love being with my kids and seeing you with them together" or whatever you can imagine yourself saying. I would cap the trip below a week too, if possible. Nothing good seems to happen after 3 nights  . Unless you feel it's ok to have her stay somewhere else so you can recover each night.

My mother is so triggering that despite a lot of work to accept her for who she is, and no matter how much intention I put into being grounded around her, I find it hard to spend even 5 minutes in her presence. So I try to build in as many time-outs as possible to help me get through the duration.

[zachira]

You are wondering about letting your BPD mother have a relationship with your children. I was raised by a mother with BPD. Because people with BPD struggle with empathy and especially understanding that the role of an adult when interacting with children is to put the needs of the children first, and an adult should never use children to get their needs met, it is important to not allow people with BPD to be alone with your children and to have boundaries that you enforce with a disordered person when there are children present. My mother with BPD viewed her children and grandchildren as extensions of herself and not as separate people, which is common with people with BPD and other personality disorders. What kind of boundaries do you think you need to have with your mother to protect your children from her inappropriate behaviors, especially behaviors that are confusing and damaging to children's self esteem?

[SaltyDawg]

STF,

   Welcome to BPD Family.

   I agree with NW and won't repeat the majority that she said, other than having boundaries is very important, and visiting with your children, you may want to be there to have them supervised.

[...]

I on the other hand have years of trauma from being raised by her and can barely talk to her without being triggered. My SO thinks that talking to her is unpleasant, and finds her annoying, frustrating, and generally overwhelming.

I'm struggling to see a world where I can have a relationship with my mom without also allowing her to have a relationship with her grandkids.  I think this would ultimately become an impasse. It would be very difficult for me to see the pain my mom is in about not having a relationship with her grandkids and hold that boundary.

Ultimately, my mom lives on the other side of the country from us and is bad at traveling so having her come over for a week or two every few years, while horrible for us, might be nice for the kids.  My mom has the maturity of a toddler so she does get along well with kids. 

Would love to hear from other people with BPD family members on whether or not you allow them to have a relationship with your kids, overall what your experience has been, and generally anything you want to share about how you're handling the situation.  Thanks.

Being mindful that you have years of trauma with your mother, it is ultimately up to you on whether or not to allow them to have a relationship with your kids.  Also, I would like to mention, that you should also look after yourself - your own self-care.  Having your mother visit, from what you have described may be out of FOG (Fear, Obligation, & Guilt).  And like real FOG, emotional FOG can cloud your ability to see clearly.  My best advice, is to follow your gut in this matter, and allow only what you feel comfortable allowing.  If you do set boundaries, make sure you are willing to follow through on them, whatever, that might be.

But, you do say she gets along well with kids.  You do have a natural boundary that she lives on the other side of the country, and will visit rarely.  Perhaps, if you can afford it, or suggest it, when she does visit, that she stay at a hotel/motel (and frame it in a way she would be better pampered/taken care of), this way if she does become unhinged, you can have that additional boundary of having her go to a 'refuge' of her own.  If she is around for the holidays, make sure you have holiday plans with friends, etc.  This way you can limit the amount of time with your children, without cutting her out completely.

Ask questions, and take care with self-care.

[Methuen]

Ultimately, my mom lives on the other side of the country from us and is bad at traveling so having her come over for a week or two every few years, while horrible for us, might be nice for the kids.

Most people/families can hold it together for 3 days, after which people start grating on each other.  I can’t speak for you or your situation, but if it was me, I would feel like I had more control of the situation if I flew my family across the country to visit her.  Then I could stay however long I wanted, where I wanted, and leave if I needed to. 

If she comes to your house and things fall apart, it’s difficult to impossible to get space.

But if you were at her house, you have options as you could spend some time with grandma, take the family on a short side trip for several days, and spend a little more time with g before flying home.  Or if things fell apart you could always fly home early. 

She might even prefer you coming to her if she doesn’t travel well.  One problem is that it would be more expensive for you, and cost more time.

But depending on the circumstances, it might be worth it.

[Turkish]

I agree with the others. She might be OK now on that level of
emotional immaturity, but it will change as they grow while she is stuck.

I heard this later after my mom returned to her Hoarder property after living with us through one winter in the city (cleanly, with light and heat), that she complained to her neighbors that I wouldn't let her watch our then toddler. She never asked, but no way in  in that filth.

Truthfully, I should have been taken by CPS, and almost was,  when I was a young teenager. When my mom was good, she was good. But when she was bad, she was very, very bad.

She tended to be OK for the most part with the kids when they were young, supervised by me.

Years ago, my mom tried to pull my ex aside at a huge Fiesta in order to bond with her. My ex was rude, but my mom tried to pull the "I've found another lost daughter to mother!" Deal. My mom didn't comprehend the huge party with family, nor that my ex had a mom, even if they were enmeshed (which my ex telegraphed years later and enacted boundaries).

PwBPD live in their world. I guess that's like anyone, but a distorted world-view is exactly that.

[SurfingToFreedom]

Thanks for sharing your experiences with me.  I'm sorry everyone has had such negative interactions but am also grateful for the comradery and support of this forum. 

[Notwendy]

It's a difficult situation because, BPD is a disorder that affects relationships with everyone to some extent. A relationship with a grandchild is one that evolves over time and is also inclusive of a relationship with the child's parents.

I don't think it's possible to have a relationship with your mother but not allow one with the grandchildren. She will want one. On one hand, it's natural for her to want one. Mothers with BPD still want what other mothers want, even if their behavior is the reason for boundaries on this relationship.

I didn't learn about BPD until later, and my parents already had a relationship with my kids. When they were little, they were not directly affected by her behavior. She was not harmful to them. However, my H could see how her behavior affected me when she visited. It was more stressful. My parents didn't stay with us- and chose to stay in a hotel, even though we had a guest room with their own bathroom they could stay in if they wanted to. We tried that one time and they got into an argument with each other and went to stay in a hotel. I think they wanted their privacy with that.

I learned about BPD when my children were older and I could then recognize the dynamics with my mother. I recall being enlisted at her emotional caretaker by my early teens- and I she would confide TMI with me. I noticed her doing this with my kids. The other way she gets emotional attention is to have people "do things for her". I recognized this behavior with my kids as well. She'd decide that one child needed to do a task for her- and if I offered to do it, she'd refuse. It wasn't the task she wanted done- it was that she wanted my child to be serving her needs. The children were feeling uneasy around her.

I didn't worry about overtly abusive behavior on her part. However, emotional manipulation isn't harmless either. I also didn't know what she'd say to them if she began to confide in them. It isn't their role to be her emotional caretakers.

And all the while, my kids developed their own positive relationship with my father.  Both parents visited together. His interactions with them were different than hers. This reflects each of their relationship abilities.

I think it comes down to your own boundaries and your relationship with your mother first. If a parent is harmful to you, they are potentially harmful to grandchildren. In some cases, no contact is the best solution and in other cases, low contact is. It's not practical to cut contact with one person while being connected to others who they are connected to. I could not have NC with my mother and still have a relationship with my father, or relatives who are connected to her. LC seems to be the more feasable solution. First, decide on the kind of relationship you want with your mother. If it's one with boundaries, that is probably going to also be the same with your children.

[livednlearned]

Mothers with BPD still want what other mothers want, even if their behavior is the reason for boundaries on this relationship.

I'm fairly certain that my mother wanted a relationship with my son because of what other people thought. There may have been a glimmer there of genuine love but if so, it was buried under something else that had to do with appearances.

I found it disturbing to watch her use my son to get her needs met even though often times it was arguably harmless.

There was an intergenerational fight in our family about what my son would call my mother. She felt strongly it had to be Gigi, which was what my cousin's kids called their great grandmother (my grandmother, my father's mother). My mother was nothing but envious of that side of the family.

I encouraged her to let our son call her what he wanted but she insisted it had to be Gigi, which upset my grandmother who said it meant great grandmother, and that was her name, given to her by her great grandchildren.

I think kids can feel these kinds of tensions. They might not understand what it's about but they know on some level that the fight seems to be about them without having to do with their feelings or wants or needs. It makes it exhausting to manage these relationships because the dysfunction is infused into something as seemingly trivial as what to call a grandparent.

As a result, she doesn't have a loving, affectionate relationship with my son in part because she seemed to think the assignment was about her and what he could do for her reputation 

[Tangled mangled]

This post reminds of my mum’s response to me not sending my dad a 70th birthday message.

I had just started the process of limiting contact with my parents and was living hundreds of miles away from my stbxh husband and children. I’m a student.

For my dad’s birthday, I refused to dragged in to pay the costs for a birthday party. I reminded myself that he never celebrated any of our birthdays so I for one did not owe him anything.

Because I was away from children, my mum called my stbxh and made the children sing happy birthday song to my dad.

These are the kind of things or similar you will have to deal with.
The entitlement to be treated as a loving grandma.
In addition to what others have said already, for your mum it’s all about how it looks. It’s the happy grandma show really.
The pictures, social media posts and showing off her beautiful grandchildren.

[Notwendy]

These are the kind of things or similar you will have to deal with.
The entitlement to be treated as a loving grandma.
In addition to what others have said already, for your mum it’s all about how it looks. It’s the happy grandma show really.
The pictures, social media posts and showing off her beautiful grandchildren.

Yes, it's the self image and the entitlement of a relationship without the actions of a relationship. Dad read bedtime stories to them, played with them, helped them with homework when they were older- he did things with them.

BPD mother would mostly stand back and observe my father doing these things or be disengaged and doing something else. She asks my kids questions so she could be knowleagable about them when talking to other people. She asks them to do things around the house for her. They don't mind helping her but there's no substance to the relationship beyond that.

So even if my BPD mother wasn't overtly raging or hurting anyone- the dynamics of the relationship were different than with their other grandparents. I would estimate the kids spent similar amounts of time with their grandparents when they were little. The main boundary was to not be alone with my mother but often we visited as a family group. It is that the way she relates to people is different and that forms the basis of the relationship.

As the kids got older, there was more drama on her part- because drama is a part of how she relates to people. As children get older, the relationships with them evolve as a part of it. They have more language and cognitive skills- and more relationship skills. It doesn't take much emotional maturity to relate to a small child- they don't have these skills either. I think the manipulation and drama is how my mother relates to adults- to compensate in a way.

When they were teens we had the discussion on mental illness and BPD- not with my mother but with them. She doesn't believe she has any issues. We talked about boundaries. They decide if they want to have contact with her and how much. They've seen her behavior and I wanted them to know why she acts like she does- not to excuse it or tolerate it - but to have an understanding of it.