15yo daughter with many challenging behaviors. uBPDx = mom...

[EyesUp]

I think it's my first time posting on this sub.  Most of my recent posts have been about my uBPDx on other subs. 

I'm not certain that D15 has BPD.  It's difficult to see the difference between "standard" 15yo daughter behaviors - e.g., general moodiness, entitlement, social anxiety, and various forms of asserting independence, often with maximum attitude...  vs. possible BPD behavior... vs. possible influence or even emulation of uBPDx (mom)... vs. acting out due to alienation. 

As Warshak writes frequently in Divorce Poison - "take action" so I'm trying to get out of my own head on this.

Yesterday, there was an episode - relatively innocuous, but possibly illustrative:   D15 asked to stop by mom's house for something en route to school. Sure, no problem. She asserted, "we need to go extra early because I don't want to be late, we need 15 minutes" - I didn't challenge or ask for info, instead I suggested that we go immediately, instead of en route later.  She agreed, she checked with mom, all good.

She was in and out of mom's house in < 3 mins.

When she got back in the car (I waited in the car), she immediate shouted "we need to go now!  I don't want to be late!"  - at this point, we had more than hour to get to school before the bell, with school only 3 minutes away. Anxiety? Something else?

I was surprised, but I'm getting acclimated to caught off guard by D15's outbursts. I said "no problem, we'll be on time" and started to drive.

D15 then unloaded a bunch of accusations, screaming "we're never on time.  we're always late.  D8 and D13 are always late, too."   

This is simply false.  I could go into exhaustive detail, but the fact is that there is not a single tardy report for any of my three kids during my parenting time.  Or on uBPDx's time, either - we have weekly reports from school, and uBPDx and I are cc:d on everything (although I gather that getting out of the house and to drop offs is a very different routine at that house, and could be a source of anxiety for D15).

I pick my battles and follow the golden ratio, but this moment felt like it called for a rational voice, or at least enforcing a boundary and not accepting false statements - so I simply and directly said:  "D15, we've never been late, and we're not going to be late today. I know you like to get to school early, and we are almost always one of the first cars in the parking lot. Is there something going on today that we need to be extra early for?  Either way, I'll make sure we're on time."

No response.  When we pulled into the driveway at my house a moment later, D15 got out, slammed the car door shut in a rage (a first), proceeded into the house and stomped loudly to her room, and slammed her door.

I'm apprehensive about this because the irrational behavior makes me a lot like I felt when living with her mom...

It also feels like it may be tied into alienation behaviors that have been building for some time, in which D15 simply rejects me at every level.  She has repeatedly stated that she doesn't want to be at my house anymore, but uBPDx continues to follow the parenting plan - presumably to avoid legal recourse - even as uBPDx sends various false accusations of her own - "there's no toothpaste at your house" and "your daughter doesn't have a blanket" are the softballs, "monitoring D15's phone is abusive" is more concerning - although we have a written device agreement with all our kids that states mom and dad have passwords and can check their devices...  sorry for the tangent, but the stream of accusations from uBPDx is never ending, and may be relevant to "we're always late" - even though we're not.

Two of D15's prior therapists were semi-sabotaged by uBPDx.  I finally identified a new one (fingers crossed), and D15 has only met with her twice.  I may reach out on this, as we're just getting acquainted.  uBPDx agreed to let D15 start with this therapist (joint decision making...), and then accused me of attempting manipulate everyone in the process, so I proceed with maximum caution about how and when to engage the therapist who may, in fact, be manipulated by uBPDx...  accusations are confessions, etc.

So the purpose of my post:  How to best respond to an irrational outburst from D15?

Was something inducing anxiety?
Is her thinking actually disordered in some way?
Was it related to an ongoing alienation campaign?
Some combination of the above?

D15 is my oldest and so consistently presents the new parenting challenges.  I'm always in learning mode.  So far, D13 and D8 are happy with me and at my house, and have learned to avoid D15 when she's on the warpath - with me or anyone else.
 
I wish I knew how to respond in the moment - for everyone's benefit. 

In my reading on Parental Alienation, even here, many articles include "and how to respond" or "what do do" in the headings - but consistently stop short of providing actual suggestions other than "engage the right legal resources". 

Questions:

Are there success stories with PA interventions (that are not on youtube or behind a paywall  )?
Why does so much BPD literature / media have click bait headlines?
Any thoughts about how to respond to D15 in a positive / productive way when she is acting out?
Any thoughts about how to focus engagement with D15's therapist? 
Any general parenting advice for a single dad of 3 girls, attempting to parallel parent with uBPDx?

Three years ago, when my marriage was unwinding, I just wanted to get through the holidays for the kids. Now I'm looking further down the road - but I don't want my kids to end up with a bunch conflicted holiday memories...  I'd really like to develop skills to make the end of the year a positive thing, along with whatever comes in the new year. 

Thanks for reading.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[kells76]

Hey EyesUp;

It's hard untangling how much "stuff" is normal 15YO stuff, how much might be our teen's own disordered traits/behaviors, and how much comes from growing up in a family system permeated with BPD.

I can say that 15 was the hardest year we had with SD17.5 (she is much more rational now!) and 15 is shaping up to be our hardest year with SD15.5 so far. I remember dealing with a major eating disorder at 15, and I think my younger sister started to get help for suicidality at 15. So a lot of anecdotal evidence is pointing to 15 being a challenging age.

You may have already heard about the Bates/Ames developmental equilibrium model. I don't know if it is still considered cutting edge, but it does make sense of how certain ages, or age combinations for when you have >1 child, seem easier to parent than others. I googled "equilibrium and disequilibrium in development stages" and looked at the images and found an explainer link to The Center for Parenting Education. (I do not know much about or have a connection with this site; the one page I looked at seems reputable in that it references published work).

I remember my favorite age combo to stepparent was 10 & 12. Totally fun, and, looking at the equilibrium theory, it makes a lot of sense.

SD15 right now is pulling away from H pretty strongly -- often trying to schedule stuff with her friends to fill the times we're supposed to be together. There's also gender/identity/peer stuff going on. She's not very flexible or willing to compromise -- but again, that can change day by day. She did ask a couple weeks ago if she could hang out with friends during our weekend together, and asked for a ride, and asked if we could pick up one friend, and then when H said that was okay as long as she was done by 5pm, she was cooperative and didn't push to hang out past then. And she will still snuggle with him on the couch when they watch "their show" together. But it's so all over the map and unpredictable.

Like you said, irrational behavior, which circles back to our question: how much of this is typical 15YO behavior, how much might be disorder developing, and how much is learned from Mom.

How long does it seem to take her to get back to a baseline after an outburst like yesterday's?

To touch on your question here:

Any thoughts about how to focus engagement with D15's therapist?

one thought could be to be honest about your fears without (yet) bringing up Mom's issues: "T, this is my first time parenting a 15 year old, and to be honest I feel afraid that what I see might not be just typical teen behaviors, but something more disordered -- I honestly don't know, and it'd mean a lot to me to hear your perspective over time and to get feedback from you about how I can most healthily respond to her in situations like yesterday."

That may help you get through the near future, where the focus is on appropriate parenting responses to specific behaviors. Longer term I'd think that the T would notice that you never talk about "well my kids' mom and I discussed it and we think we should try XYZ" -- it's all about you and your relationship to your kids, and you don't mention working together with their mom.

Any thoughts about how to respond to D15 in a positive / productive way when she is acting out?

I'm guessing you didn't raise your voice, so that's good. I think I would've wanted to respond the same way you did to yesterday's acting out. SD15 also sometimes does not tell us about plans she has, then is upset when we don't want to change our preexisting plans to accommodate her secret plans. I wonder if self-centeredness and ingratitude are characteristic of age 15 -- I remember SD17 being really ungrateful at 15.

It's probably smart to "toss out there" one calm, firm statement, and then not to engage in any more debate/discussion/argument while she's wound up (without, of course, saying stuff like "you're too angry for us to talk, so I'm going to wait until you're calm").

Sometimes when the kids are that far gone, firmness vs empathy is all you can do. SD17 especially doesn't always respond well to empathy/support when she's wound up. She kind of expects/wants pushback and if I step into an interaction with "I see where you're coming from, we're on the same page", she can get really reactive. Is your D15 like that -- better response to firmness when she's wound up?

Did D15 end up coming back out of her room with enough time to get to school on time?

[EyesUp]

Hey Kells,

D15 was at school early, as usual.  Got out of the car, said goodbye to her sister in the back, and slammed the door one more time for good measure...  When I picked her up later, she acted like nothing had happened.

Baseline is presently hard to describe. It's been a while since I've perceive anything I'd describe as warmth or affection. Not that I expect it, however we used to say "I love you" and always hugged in the morning and at bedtime, and it's been a while... she moved through the kitchen in the morning like a ghost, and goes to bed without comment. I told her that I miss fist-bumps, but that I understand that she's growing up and no matter what, I'll always be here, always love her, etc.  To which I get either nothing, or maybe an eyeroll.

In regard to the therapist - since there's a lot of evidence of PA, I asked a bunch of qualification questions on the way in which led to a candid discussion about the family dynamics.  So the therapist is well aware of my POV.  I suspect that uBPDx/mom also provided her own download, and the therapist is probably somewhere in the middle - focused on D15 - who is presently avoidant/increasingly fearful of me - after 2+ years (actually, more) of parentification, adultification, along with highly disparaging comments against me from her mom. 

I posted last summer about mom's texts with D15 in which she often states "he's an asshole" or "he has no idea how to be a parent" while encouraging D15 to report on any and every little thing, to the point that D15 appears to make stuff up to satisfy her mom.  D15 has had at least two panic attacks - once when the power went out and she wanted to go to her mom's, and another time when D8 would not let D15 braid her hair, when uBPDx/mom told her to do it - also at my house. It's clear that D15 has a dependency, which her mom has cultivated, and some kind of unhealthy bond.

For some time, D15 responded well to the message that she has two parents who love her, and it's ok to have two parents.  But since the summer, she's pulled away and stated "your house doesn't feel like a home" (I kept the marital residence) and "I only want to be at mom's where I'm comfortable".  To which I respond, "I hear you, and I'm really sorry you feel that way" and "I want to work on making this house a more comfortable place for you". 

Which ultimately makes me feel like I traded walking on eggshells with my X for walking on eggshells with D15.

I make a point to engage her in front of her sisters on lots of things.  "Hey D15, do you want anything from the store?" or "Any special requests for dinner?" - I don't want to leave any room for perception that I don't talk to her, don't engage her, don't consider her feelings - which seem to be some of the themes in her mind re:  why she doesn't want to be at my house.

Do you think I made a mistake by opening up early with D15's T?  I've not heard from the T after two sessions.  Not sure what to make of that.

[kells76]

Do you think I made a mistake by opening up early with D15's T?  I've not heard from the T after two sessions.  Not sure what to make of that.

Not necessarily -- I get that it's hard to know when those doors of opportunity will open again, so sometimes you just "take the shot" when you can.

You could think about playing it cool for a bit and seeing if the T reaches out in the next few weeks. Create an opportunity for the T to approach you.

Was the T more in touch with you right at the start? That could be expected when setting things up.

Do you manage scheduling?

And in your US state, are parents expected to be involved in a minor's counseling?

It might not be anything, it might just be how the T works -- though if you give it a couple weeks and there's still no reply, you could consider "touching base before the holidays" or something. As long as your D15 is still going that seems like the most important thing.

[EyesUp]

Hey Kells.

I had one call with the T to make introductions and see if there's a fit.  I was billed for the session, actually.  Based on the discussion, I made an intro for uBPDx to T as we have joint decision making.  uBPDx sat on it for close to a month, but finally connected and agreed to proceed.  Worth noting that T did not confirm D15's appointment to me and uBPDx, but only to uBPDx - I found out about it by sending them both an email asking if a schedule was set, T then responded to both of us.  If T is paying attention, she might catch of whiff of uBPDs' unilateral communication - while mine has been inclusive and collaborative following the first call.

I've received zero comments from T following ~2 appointments that I'm aware of.  Not auspicious...

I could reach out 1:1 this week, as the kids with be with their mom for Thanksgiving - and the suggestion to touch base with holidays in mind is a good one - thanks.

In the meantime, D15 has packed her bags to transition tonight, although the agreed schedule is for transition to occur on Monday at school dropoff.  She opened up a bit today - in anger - to express a few things that she cites as why she hates me.  Part of it follows the PA script:  "You're embarrassing" and "I don't like it here" - why?  Can't say.  But then, sensing a chance to probe a bit more, I said, "ok, I hear you - can you help me understand better what's happened?"

She pulled up a text on her phone from 2019 when she was 11 and D13 was 9 - she sent me a message saying "you're so mean" - this was actually before she had a phone, but did have an iPod touch with imessage.  She said she sent the message because I yelled at D13.  She could not say what it was about, but cites this as an example of why she's not comfortable with me.  

I'll dig into my journal and see if I can piece it together.

In the meantime, I need to respond to another request/demand to transition to mom early.  Capitulating without a good reason is a losing proposition - and I suspect that uBPDx may be attempting to establish some change of circumstances by showing that 1/3 kids spends more than 50% of nights at her house.  And simply refusing to change without providing some comment (which will be repeated to mom) is potentially reinforcing D15's narrative that I don't care about her / don't listen to her / etc.

Lately I've come across a few PA "experts" that suggest at least attempting to reach out to the adversarial parent, and potentially that parent's family.  The flip side of this is showing your hand and giving a high conflict parent fuel for fire.

I'm really jammed about what to do here, esp. because I don't have infinite resources to dive into a protracted legal battle, and by the time anything happened D15 would likely age out of court jurisdiction anyway.

I need to figure out how to do this myself - with uBPDx and with D15. I'm loathe to allow D15's behavior to influence D13 and D8, too.

[beatricex]

Hi Eyesup,
I am not in your situation and have not raised kids.  I am glad you're researching Parental Alienation and you sound like a very good guy, a great father.  I think checking a 15 year old's phone sounds like a really good idea - who knows what they can get into these days.

I have read a lot about Grandparent Alienation and have thought about this quite a bit in fact, in the past 3.5 years since one of my husband's adult daughters has cut us out of her life.  Her kids are very young.  We only saw the youngest once, right after birth.

The other stepdaughter hasn't cut us off we can still pick up her kids, but she's not talking to either one of us.  She was very close with her Dad before she decided to start a family war.  We fretted about her boys, they're 10 and 11.5 and we were really worried about her alienated us from them.  She already does the Parental Alienation thing with her ex husband, which I strongly dislike.

I know there are not very many links about this and I agree it's frustrating.  It's a difficult subject to navigate for sure. 

Besides searching the internet for articles which I found to be sparce, I did also enroll me and my husband in Family Connections.  You have to specify who the BPD person in your life is, in your case you'd mention it's your ex who you're co-parenting with.  Just a suspicion, but I'd bet you'd get some pretty good seasoned advice from those folks. 

Hang in there, and keep posting here if you need to.

When I first read your outburst story, and needing to goto Mom's for 15 minutes it popped into my head "maybe she's on her period?"  If this is new for her it's pretty scary and weird if that's what she's going through and might explain the moodiness and "you're mean Dad" comments.  She may just naturally be leaning towards her Mom at this moment, just for that reason.  Hormones wreak havoc on teenage girls.  I myself remember vividly that it was sometimes pretty horrible.
 
b

[EyesUp]

Thanks, Beatrice.

I'll take a look at Family Connections.

BTW, good thought re: D15's period.  Yes, could coincide with elevated emotions - although she has supplies at my house and doesn't need to go elsewhere.

[kells76]

In the meantime, D15 has packed her bags to transition tonight, although the agreed schedule is for transition to occur on Monday at school dropoff.  She opened up a bit today - in anger - to express a few things that she cites as why she hates me.  Part of it follows the PA script:  "You're embarrassing" and "I don't like it here" - why?  Can't say.  But then, sensing a chance to probe a bit more, I said, "ok, I hear you - can you help me understand better what's happened?"

What ended up happening; were you able to stick to the schedule?

She pulled up a text on her phone from 2019 when she was 11 and D13 was 9 - she sent me a message saying "you're so mean" - this was actually before she had a phone, but did have an iPod touch with imessage.  She said she sent the message because I yelled at D13.  She could not say what it was about, but cites this as an example of why she's not comfortable with me. 

I'll dig into my journal and see if I can piece it together.

I wonder what would happen if there was some way to "lean into" this, to encourage her to have no secrets from the T, to share all of that with the T, because it is important for the T to know what D15 thinks.

Inviting D15 to tell the T "how bad and embarrassing" you are may show the T the same "decompensating" limit that you see D15 hit, where when you invite her to share more or explain, there's nothing there.

It might also create a good learning opportunity for the T. When you check in, you can share that you encouraged D15 to disclose her negative perceptions/experiences of you with the T, and you'd like the T's help and perspective, because you'd like to make some repairs with D15 but are a little stuck because it isn't clear exactly what you did, and you'd like to know.

Something to shine light on the dynamic that D15 holds on to content-less "incidents" of "proof" about how bad you are, but falls apart when those are pushed at.

Ultimately, none of this, though, should be about having a "gotcha" moment with her -- it should be about finding a path forward for both of you to make repairs with each other.

[EyesUp]

I've avoided discussing the T with D15 for fear that her mom will weaponize it somehow. uBPDx/mom has already accused me of manipulating the T - this was before she spoke with and subsequently approved the T.  I perceived this as uBPDx's attempt to gain some control of the situation, somehow and didn't think much more of it.  However I sense that if I discuss the T with D15, there's a chance that D15 will reject the T.  I'm not sure if D15 even knows that I located the T and got the ball rolling...   I did discuss her last two Ts on occassion, but only high level.

That said, as I digest D15's comment about an old text message, there are a few things that begin to line up:

D15 is a bit of a protector - for her mom, her sister...
She's also always been very self-sufficient (in some ways), and generally didn't have behavior issues as a kid - other than anxiety (diagnosed, semi-treated, never medicated).
 
D13, on the other hand, has an ADHD diagnosis. She's a great kid, but before the diagnosis I know that there were times where I raised my voice to get her attention in various situations.  And there were times when she was very young when she'd throw herself on the floor, kicking and screaming, if something wasn't just right - e.g., food (too hot!), or clothing (too bunchy!).  With the diagnosis and medication and a few years, a lot has changed - and it's been forever since I raised my voice to any of my kids.

There were a few times when I picked up D13, kicking and screaming, to bring her into the living room to calm down or to try a "time out" - so the rest of the family could eat in peace for a minute.  This was when she was much younger, e.g., 6-7-8.  But D15, also much younger, was probably worried that she might get picked up and hauled off to the other room, too.  Never happened, actually - we just didn't have those types of behavior issues with D15.

I can see how D15 at a younger age, may have been scared when I'd raise my voice to her sister ("will that happen to me?"), esp because there was some inconsistency in how I've treated my kids - I don't think I raised my voice to D15 much, if at all, but it did happen sometimes with D13 when she was younger and often hard to reach. 

They are different people with different personalities, and I've learned a lot on the job from #1 to #3 (who seems to be the most well adjusted of the three, classic 3rd kid).

I don't think I've ever been a screamer or a persistently angry dad, but I can see how D15, generally anxious, might develop a concern about one or both of her parents disciplined - or merely communicated - with her younger sister in more overt ways, esp before we had the diagnosis and some regulation via medication.

For avoidance of doubt, there were never any spankings or anything like that with any of my kids.  Not sure if I'll raise any of this with D15's T...  just food for thought at the moment.

I do feel that it could be good to explore D15's anxiety, and how to best support her - and how to promote her own ability to work through moments when she's feeling it.  I think her recent Ts have largely focused on social and emotional issues without necessarily working on underlying behavioral/developmental dynamics...

[livednlearned]

Hi EyesUp,

I'm kind of coming out of our stretch with SD26 so some of this is from back in the day when she had a psychotic break at 16 (divorce, gender identity stuff).

A book I found helpful to try and sort out whether something is normal-range adolescence or more severe like BPD is Blaise Aguirre's Borderline in Adolescence.

He has a chapter in his book to help parents make sense of the difference between BPD and regular adolescence that might be helpful, and he has some material on youtube.

What might happen if you circle back and do a "repair and recover" attempt with her? With my kid (S22, who is estranged from his BPD father) when I do repair/recover he is very responsive. When H does the same with his three kids (SS24, SD26, SD29) the response varies. SS24 was very alienated and has almost a separate reality. SD26 responds in strange ways to repair/recover. She most certainly has BPD. Repair/recover attempts seem to only matter in terms of whether the response is providing sufficient attention, negative or positive is besides the point. SD29 is like S22, she is very responsive to repair/recover.

"Hey D15, the other day you were upset about being late for school. Can we talk about what you were feeling? Help me understand. I want to know if you felt supported. If not, what could I have done different?" In your words 

One positive to this is that stuff I thought was going to be permanent with S22 is not there much, if at all. He has internalized some of the actions I've taken with him and models them back to me. Some of the things I've said he now says. He was medicalized in his teens so didn't have a typical high school experience but I was concerned he had PD traits or adjacent.

It could be that our kids (BPD parents as role models) have a tougher time self-regulating and in the pressure cooker period leading up to high school and into young adulthood, they struggle more to manage serious challenges, and that steam sprays in our faces more than, say, kids who might come from homes with adjusted dynamics. 

[beatricex]

Hi again EyesUp,
I read your thread again after posting my own long rant about my adult stepdaughter and her Parental Alienation antics with her ex husband, which my husband and I took a hard stance against about 3 years ago.  Basically, my husband made a video for his adult kids (both mothers) that said we're not going to Hate Who They Hate anymore (hating on the ex husband's family is the main hobby, it consumes her).  We said this is bad for the grandkids and we know we've done it in the past too, but we're not going to do it anymore.

Since then, I will say my husband and I are finding it extremely difficult to "Live Ones Values."  So much drama ensued, it was extremely difficult to hold any ground.

You're also facing tough decisions at a crucial time in your oldest teenage daughter's life.  I hear you saying "I need to get out of my own head...I have to take ACTION!" (I think like this to).  And, let's face it, she is pulling away from you, and it's very likely at least in part due to sabotage on the part of your BPD ex.  Parental Alienation is par for the course with a BPD ex.  I think they wrote that playbook.

What to do about it?  Should you just find a support group?  Post here?  These are all great questions.  Is there a strategy with the T?  Can you just confront this head on with your child?  I hear your frustration.  Just wanted you to know that.

b

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[EyesUp]

@livenlearned - I will work on the repair and recover idea - thank you.

@beatricex - appreciate the open-ended support.

It does feel like the pace of conflict is quickening.  During my marriage, I was good at avoiding so much and so now I wonder if my perception of conflict is changing, or if the conflict is, in fact, increasing.  Here's what's on my plate at the moment:

D15's T ignored an email request to touch base for a week.  I sent a follow up and finally got a response - we will speak next Monday.  It's the first 1:1 communication since D15 started.  In my experience, this isn't normal - prior Ts communicated early and often.  My agenda for the call is to ask how to best support D15, especially through the holidays - now that there have been at least 2-3 sessions, I hope the T can provide some insight.

Yesterday was D13's intake session with a new Psychiatrist.  Her prior Dr. left the practice last summer, and it's taken until now to find and be seen by a new one.  uBPDx scheduled the appointment, would not provide any information - I was able to get it through medical records. I offered to pickup D13 at school and either bring her to uBPDx or meet at the appointment.  At the appointment, uBPDx said "you didn't say you were coming" and accused me of being manipulative (accusations are confessions).  My feeling is that if we truly put D13 first, we would take her together and show mutual support.  I participated in all meetings with her prior Dr.  The real question might be:  Why wouldn't I be there?   

In addition to concerns about a pattern of exclusion or attempted exclusion from important meetings and events, there are new follow ups that will need to be managed with uBPDx re: adjustment to D13's meds (ADHD) that are not straightforward, because uBPDx has added a concern re: anxiety to the mix.  The Dr. quickly stated that she sees no clinical / generalized anxiety, but she was open to trying a baby dose of Prozac... D13 doesn't want it.  uBPDx wants it.  This means that I am tie-breaker by default because we have joint decision making, so either of us can override the other.  My POV is that there is no urgent need to try new meds, we can take a wait and see approach if emotional or behavioral issues become more acute (the issues that uBPDx cites are normal 13yo issues, from my POV).  However, uBPDx may be provoked if she doesn't get her way on this - I would not be surprised if she uses this moment to file a motion or take some other action.

Finally, the kids were with their mom for Thanksgiving.  I called to say hi and facetime, and it was clear that the kids were more or less hiding in order to take the call from their grandmother's house.  The kids were with me over the weekend - D15 repeated something I said to her mom, who sent a flaming email citing D15.  The comments were highly distorted, and what bothered me was that I couldn't tell if the distortion came from D15 or her mom, or maybe a bit of both. 

This time, I immediately addressed it with all three kids:  "Guys, I just got an email from mom.  She thinks I said a, b, c.  I will follow up and let her know that there's been some misunderstanding because this isn't what was said, and I think it's important to clear up miscommunication quickly - that way we can avoid arguments or hurt feelings" - then later, I showed D15 her mom's email and said "I'm not upset with you, and you don't need to respond - but I want you to understand why I commented about mom's email to your sisters, and I also want you to understand how I will take action to clear up misunderstandings and help reduce conflict."  Based on D15's body language, I think she was both surprised at her mom's words (it's the first time I've shown her what I see), but also a bit embarrassed - which is why I suspect that there were distortions in the story from D15 and her mom.  I might review this episode with D15's T.

I was hoping that D15 might soften a bit after this, but that hasn't been the case - she's still very adversarial, with fleeting moments of cooperation or slight softening when she wants something...

Do these examples stand out at particularly egregious alienation behaviors?  Maybe not.  I've read other stories about kids who are prevented from seeing a parent, adversarial exes who don't follow a parenting plan, and other far more overt/concerning behaviors.  However, it's the cumulative effect of subtle and not-so-subtle comments, suggestions, responses that somehow accrue into behaviors like D15's alliance with her mom and rejection of me. I'm so apprehensive that dominos will fall and D13 and D8 will follow.  And that "taking the high road" amounts to falling into the same avoidance patterns that enabled an unhealthy marriage to continue for far too long in the first place.

Is gaining the conviction to take action - like I did re: uBPDx's email - a good instinct?  Not loving these moments of self-doubt, but the alternative looks to be orders of magnitude worse.

[livednlearned]

D15's T ignored an email request to touch base for a week.  I sent a follow up and finally got a response - we will speak next Monday.  It's the first 1:1 communication since D15 started.  In my experience, this isn't normal - prior Ts communicated early and often.

That would make me nervous, too. Can you remind us if you were involved in finding this therapist and had a say in working with her? What is her background?

My agenda for the call is to ask how to best support D15, especially through the holidays - now that there have been at least 2-3 sessions, I hope the T can provide some insight.

If you haven't seen this already, it's probably a good idea to take a look at Ju-jitsu Parenting: Fighting Back from the Down Position by Childress. Even though it's assuming more of a forensic psychology situation, you're close enough that there are likely to be helpful insights. As Childress says, you are being defined.

Not working to proactively reach out to you may be neutral -- let's hope -- but it also can't hurt to approach it as though it isn't.

My POV is that there is no urgent need to try new meds, we can take a wait and see approach if emotional or behavioral issues become more acute (the issues that uBPDx cites are normal 13yo issues, from my POV).  However, uBPDx may be provoked if she doesn't get her way on this - I would not be surprised if she uses this moment to file a motion or take some other action.

A version of this existed in my case, although in reverse. Then S10 went through a psycho-educational evaluation and was found to be ADHD/ADD combined type. We went to a psychiatrist whose view was to medicate only if his ADHD was impacting him socially and having a negative effect on his self-perception. In our case, n/BPDx refused to agree to the diagnosis but said yes to the medication. The psychiatrist was confused and wanted him to clarify, which he refused to do, so she would not agree to medication. It was helpful to have the entire episode documented by email since the judge could then see for himself, in writing, the lengths that n/BPDx went to avoid agreeing or not agreeing and confusing everyone involved. It ended with n/BPDx saying he didn't believe in ADHD diagnoses, yet he was not only diagnosed himself, but also medicated. 

Finally, the kids were with their mom for Thanksgiving.  I called to say hi and facetime, and it was clear that the kids were more or less hiding in order to take the call from their grandmother's house.  The kids were with me over the weekend - D15 repeated something I said to her mom, who sent a flaming email citing D15.  The comments were highly distorted, and what bothered me was that I couldn't tell if the distortion came from D15 or her mom, or maybe a bit of both. 

Based on D15's body language, I think she was both surprised at her mom's words (it's the first time I've shown her what I see), but also a bit embarrassed - which is why I suspect that there were distortions in the story from D15 and her mom.  

I think this might be a very close example to what Richard Warshak recommends in Divorce Poison. None of us want to put our kids in the middle but when the other parent is engaged in alienation techniques, you have to skillfully address the ways in which your ex has middled the child.

I might review this episode with D15's T.

What if the narrative about you is that you spy on D15 and have bad boundaries?

I'm sure there are ways to have that conversation that will feel like adult:adult but some therapists view the parents of their clients as children who are looking for a parent to referee. I would run dialog through the Jujitsu article to make sure you see any potential traplines.

However, it's the cumulative effect of subtle and not-so-subtle comments, suggestions, responses that somehow accrue into behaviors like D15's alliance with her mom and rejection of me. I'm so apprehensive that dominos will fall and D13 and D8 will follow.  And that "taking the high road" amounts to falling into the same avoidance patterns that enabled an unhealthy marriage to continue for far too long in the first place.

BPD parenting is equivalent to pathogenic parenting (alienation), which Childress refers to as developmental child abuse. Like you say, it's the accumulation of thousands upon thousands of looks, words, phrases that accumulate until the child cannot accurately perceive who the abuser is.

It's a high-wire act. It's good you're listening to your instincts and working to understand how best to counter it.

Is gaining the conviction to take action - like I did re: uBPDx's email - a good instinct?  Not loving these moments of self-doubt, but the alternative looks to be orders of magnitude worse.

n/BPDx sent an email to our son when he was 13 or so that was meant to humiliate me because it was part of a forwarded email I had written during the marriage. n/BPDx thought it underscored a point he was trying to make, but it angered S13 because it put him in the middle in a way that really pissed him off.

It's hard to know how these things will be perceived by our kids. Sometimes every conversation can feel like a roll of the dice. What I noticed about myself is how subtle the line was between caring about my kid, and caring what my kid thought of me. I think if you can get in that pocket and really understand that this is about D15 -- assuming she has not been fully co-opted -- you can build that validating environment our kids are so desperate to get.

My son does not have a relationship with n/BPDx. Of all the things he resents the most, it's that n/BPDx makes it all about him, every time. It's not that n/BPDx called him names or verbally abused him or didn't show up or passed out, but that his father could not focus on him, as the kid in the relationship. It's easy to see when a disordered person struggles to put kids first, but we have to be very aware of it in ourselves, and that's really really hard to do when missiles are headed your way every 5 seconds, coming from both D15 and your ex. It's almost imperceptible, it's like a fine line and you have to be checking it to see which side you're on.

[kells76]

Speaking of being in the middle:

My POV is that there is no urgent need to try new meds, we can take a wait and see approach if emotional or behavioral issues become more acute (the issues that uBPDx cites are normal 13yo issues, from my POV).  However, uBPDx may be provoked if she doesn't get her way on this - I would not be surprised if she uses this moment to file a motion or take some other action.

A version of this existed in my case, although in reverse. Then S10 went through a psycho-educational evaluation and was found to be ADHD/ADD combined type. We went to a psychiatrist whose view was to medicate only if his ADHD was impacting him socially and having a negative effect on his self-perception. In our case, n/BPDx refused to agree to the diagnosis but said yes to the medication. The psychiatrist was confused and wanted him to clarify, which he refused to do, so she would not agree to medication. It was helpful to have the entire episode documented by email since the judge could then see for himself, in writing, the lengths that n/BPDx went to avoid agreeing or not agreeing and confusing everyone involved. It ended with n/BPDx saying he didn't believe in ADHD diagnoses, yet he was not only diagnosed himself, but also medicated.

I wonder if there's a way to take yourself out of the "middle" position of "tiebreaker", given your intuition that xW would leverage that as ammo: "Dad doesn't care about you medically, I'm the only one who sees your true distress and anxiety, it's unbelievable that Dad would force you to not take medication that your doctor thinks you could need, blah blah blah"

Maybe you can get in writing or email some kind of agreement that you're not opposed to medication as long as the doctor (or school counselor or someone) comes up with the criteria and tracks the criteria -- not just you, not just Mom.

Something like: "Sure, Doctor, if D13 ends up needing Prozac [or whatever], I support your professional opinion; could you lay out for me in an email or reference sheet the benchmarks you'll be looking at, and how many months you'll monitor her for before reassessing?"

I'd hope that having a "checklist" of stuff like: how many times she goes to the school counselor's office per week, what she reports to the psych after you take her for a visit, what she reports to the psych after Mom takes her for a visit, grades over time, any behavior stuff at school, etc, would be something everyone could point to for decisionmaking, instead of "just Dad" or "just Mom" being tiebreaker.

Something where you don't fight Mom's desire for meds (though, I get it, that seems like a pretty bad idea), you find a way to agree with her that if the doctor puts together a checklist and monitors over time and D13 meets the criteria, then you agree with Mom to do meds.

Trying to think of ways to remove the fight between you and Mom, and somehow make it between Mom and the medical professionals.

[EyesUp]

Thanks, all, for following along and riffing.

A couple of notes. Candidly, I'm a little unsettled and could use a sounding board.

It's the third xmas since the separation/divorce, so this routine still feels new/different, i.e., doing xmas in two houses. The first year, uBPDx raged that I was appropriating her holiday...  Nevermind that traditions had been well established with the kids - she wanted full control of xmas and was angry when she learned that I had a tree in my house.

In fairness, before we had kids, we didn't really do xmas and we exchanged presents on NYE. After we had kids, she wanted a tree and I capitulated - and supported the tradition ever since. It didn't even occur to me not to have a tree or to continue the tradition for the kids in my home.

FFWD to this year, en route to pick out a tree with the kids, I told them about how mom wanted a tree and how we've had one ever since.

Later that day, I got an angry email from X stating "D15 said that you told the kids it was your idea to get a tree. You're disparaging me and my tradition" and goes on to threaten some legal action and closed with "I'm sick your BS".   To me, this is disordered thinking in black and white:  I can clearly see that she's upset that I talk to the kids about traditions, but how can I disparage a tradition that I am actively promoting in my own household?

Unlike past emails that I generally ignore, this time I engaged the kids.  I told them that I received a message from mom and that she seemed very upset that I took credit for having a tree, but that's not what I said - and that when something like this happens, it's a good idea to to send a short note so that there's no misunderstanding, which I would do.  I said this to all three kids in front of D15, who did not respond.

Then, after the younger two were in bed, I had a short discussion with D15.  I told her that she didn't do anything wrong, I wasn't upset.  However I wanted to share mom's note - which I did.  Her eyes grew large as she read, but she didn't say anything.  After she read it, I simply said "I'm not going to share all of mom's messages with you, but I thought it might be helpful this time so that you can understand why I wanted all of you to know why I was talking about this earlier - I will send a short note to mom tonight so that there's no misunderstanding."

It was the first time I've done anything like this with D15.

It did not produce an immediate thaw, but I think I perceived a starter motor clicking...  at least that's what I was hoping for.

I also spoke with D15's T.  In short, T said that she doesn't have any acute concerns, D15's behavior is normal teenage stuff, and that I'm doing everything right.  I told her about a couple of recent discussions with D15, and she simply said "keep talking" and let's stay in touch... 

Finally, in the course of follow up re: D13's Prozac option, uBPDx mentioned that she feels that I call all the shots, override all her decisions, and don't act in the best interests of the kids.  I asked her to expand on this and it's all about the fact that I did not capitulate when she unilaterally attempted to enroll D13 at her school last year.  I asked if there's anything else, and I can see how the Prozac scrip could become another example, but there were no other examples from the past.  However she did say that "if this continues she'll need to take some legal action" which I take to mean that it's not if, but when...   Her entitlement is off the chart, so she will likely seek relief from a judge if she can't get what she wants some other way.

Summary:
- D15's T is not addressing the post-D dynamic that I cited as a central concern when onboarding. I'd be delighted if the "normal teenage behavior" diagnosis is correct, but wish there was something more programmatic in place.  I am grateful, at least, that she offered some validation to me re: "doing all the right things" vs. the alternative...
- the xmas tree drama shows that D15 is engaged in some kind of alliance with her mom.
- the Prozac decision needs to be addressed in a follow up meeting next week... I appreciate the advice re: providing conditional agreement as a path forward.
- the threat of legal action is both concerning and non-concerning.  On one hand, if uBPDx files a motion, I'll file a counter motion. I suspect that there could be temp orders, but more likely no immediate changes pending investigation via GAL, etc., which would be costly and time consuming and almost certainly not good for mom... but also not great for the kids in various ways.

There's got to be a better way to mitigate conflict other than capitulation. 

Merely asking for D13's Psych to outline an actual protocol and plan will likely be perceived as a challenge by uBPDx, and possibly by the Psych, too.  As a side note, the Psych went ahead and wrote the Rx after one meeting and after stating that she didn't think it was necessary - but that she'd provide it if the parents agreed, and that we'd follow up in two weeks.  But rather than waiting for the follow up meeting, she sent in the Rx, and provided a note (captured in the EHR) stating "the parents can start anytime if they agree" - I guess this sort of thing is well intentioned, but it's like handing my X a grenade with the pin pulled out, and now I have reservations about a Psych who appears to contradict her own position with zero rigor.  I've heard of doctors who prescribe Prozac like aspirin - I think we've got one.

Happy December, everyone.

[kells76]

Quick thought on this:

- D15's T is not addressing the post-D dynamic that I cited as a central concern when onboarding. I'd be delighted if the "normal teenage behavior" diagnosis is correct, but wish there was something more programmatic in place.  I am grateful, at least, that she offered some validation to me re: "doing all the right things" vs. the alternative...

I'm thinking marathon, not sprint. This is a new T, so it may take a while for the dynamics to play out. This is good that she gave the stamp of approval to "keep talking" -- you can keep having those "clarification" conversations with the kids as needed, and if Mom complains, you can turn to the T and say "I'm a little stuck, your suggestion to keep talking with the kids makes sense, what would you recommend I do or change in this situation?"

Model for the T that you are the parent who can take feedback.

Also, you can use the T's framing as "it's mostly normal teen behavior" as another entryway to partnering with the T: "Thanks T, it's helpful to hear that perspective. This is my first time parenting a 15 year old, so I may have some questions I bring to you about situations that come up, and hearing your take on whether it's normal-range or not would really help. What do you think I should be looking for that would signal to me something outside of normal range behavior?"

Basically, one approach would be not fighting her approach or framing yet. Move forward "as if" the T is seeing the whole picture -- follow the advice to keep talking, and record behaviors that you have questions about. At some point it seems inevitable that the BPD family dynamic is going to rear its head, and that moment is hopefully something you bring to the T and do the "I'm confused" move: "I'm confused... can you help me unpack this... D15 is saying that Mom said XYZ, but I haven't gotten that communication from Mom (or whatever the issue is)... is that typical? What would you recommend I do in this situation?"

It may take an occurrence of the T recommending "OK, I think doing ABC would be helpful here" and you (disagreeing with ABC) doing ABC anyway and it not working, or having an opposite effect, for the T to see that normal-range problem solving is not helping the dynamic and for the T to realize for herself that something else is in play.

It's probably not the only approach, but it is an option -- lean into the T's framing and wait for the inevitable disordered dynamics to show themselves.

...

In terms of D13's meds, and Prozac specifically... it could be a hill to die on. Do you have the energy to BIFF it -- communicate to the psych and Mom "thanks for the information, good to know, I don't agree with Prozac at the moment as the risks outweigh the current benefits, let's check in again in February"?

Legally you'd be covered -- the psych is saying "if the parents agree" and you don't, plus it sounds like your PP has joint medical decision making. Like you said, it's the conflict that would happen after that, that's the issue.

It's a question of what you have the bandwidth for, and what is best for D13. You have a lot of other stuff going on, so not everything can be the hill to die on, but Prozac is no joke either.

...

Then, after the younger two were in bed, I had a short discussion with D15.  I told her that she didn't do anything wrong, I wasn't upset.  However I wanted to share mom's note - which I did.  Her eyes grew large as she read, but she didn't say anything.  After she read it, I simply said "I'm not going to share all of mom's messages with you, but I thought it might be helpful this time so that you can understand why I wanted all of you to know why I was talking about this earlier - I will send a short note to mom tonight so that there's no misunderstanding."

It was the first time I've done anything like this with D15.

It did not produce an immediate thaw, but I think I perceived a starter motor clicking...  at least that's what I was hoping for.

That sounds positive.

I think sometimes with our kids, we wish we had 2-family situations where the adults were the ones who talked about adult issues, and the adults shielded the kids from adult conversations. That goes out the window when a pwBPD is involved. It no longer matters that you didn't want to expose the kids to adult topics, they're getting exposed at Mom's whether that's what you wanted for them or not. It hurts to have to pivot to the reality that "I didn't want this for you, but we're here, and I wish we had a relationship where sharing adult emails with you wasn't an option, but that's not the reality we're in".

Given the choices Mom has made, I think sharing those messages may be the "least bad" move and makes sense for your situation.

 How has D15 behaved since that talk?

[EyesUp]

Thanks again Kells.

The suggestions re: how to engage D15's T and prove out or at least better demonstrate what's happening or not happening are appreciated.

We've got a remote follow up with D13's doctor this week, and uBPDx has already laid out her arguments - not so much about why Prozac is needed, but rather why it was good for her (yes, she's taken it on and off for 25 years, but my observation was that her depression cycles and anxieties steadily worsened over that time), and why my opposition to it is not in the best interest of our child, and what action she may need to take if I don't agree...  etc.  i.e., it's more about her than about D13. 

So, I will explore a bit more about criteria - although there appear to be none, since the Rx was already written based on a first meeting with minimal interaction with the patient, before a profile sheet was completed, and with divided parents.  You can guess how I'm feeling about this provider already...

As for D15, no change. I'm consistently iced out. We do have our weekly 1:1 time when I take her to dance, and I use this time to talk a bit.  She's *slightly* more communicative, i.e., she will actually respond to direct questions.

It's interesting, I interviewed one of the top GALs (who is also a T with a focus on family systems) in my state earlier this year - based on my description of what's happening, the GAL basically said "yes, those are alienation behaviors, and I know how to intervene and treat it, but almost no one else does, and I only accept direct pay at $xxx/hour" - which struck me as a bit guru-ish and didn't inspire confidence.

My observation is:  A lot of people have created a cottage industry of getting paid to listen to people attempt to describe traumas, abuses, behaviors, concerns...  without much if any real framework for intervention or performance-based outcomes.

I'm not saying all so-called alienation experts are fraudsters, however I am saying that you can read thousands of pages and listen to hundreds of hours of podcasts or youtube videos which describe what happens and even why it happens - but there are very, very few experts out there who concretely describe how to neutralize both the alienator and the targeted child's response to the alienator.   

Perhaps it's because those of us who get into this position are often avoidant to some degree in the first place - and learning how to adopt an entirely new posture in relationships requires a significant adjustment and associated commitment...

[CC43]

Eyes, you seem like a very caring and sensitive father.  Daughters can be moody, and in the case of daughters with BPD, moodiness can be extreme.

I have one observation about my mid-20s stepdaughter who is diagnosed with BPD.  Many of her accusations appear to be pure projection of her own insecurities.  For instance, she often rages about how everyone treats her like a child.  In actuality, she's feeling childlike, not because of how others treat her, but because she hasn't hit typical adult milestones.  (I'll add that she also acts very childlike with tantrums and inappropriate behavior.)  Anyway, this is a obviously a source of stress and shame for her.  For example, recently a relative made a small gesture of help, and a couple days later my stepdaughter exploded, writing a vicious and threatening email, because her relative "disrespected" her, treated her like a child and was condescending.  All the relative did was offer her some water!  Thus her rage is coming from personal insecurities, and it is re-cast as blaming others at the slightest provocation.  Another example is when my stepdaughter shouted at a large Christmas gathering, "This is so boring!  You all are lame!"  In actuality, there were many generations present, and we were having a jolly time chatting and catching up, preparing food, eating treats and enjoying seeing each other.  I think she was the boring one, as she wasn't helping with the preparations, and she wasn't engaged in the conversation.  She couldn't bear to see that her younger cousins had surpassed her in milestones (school, jobs, boyfriend/girlfriend, etc.), which were the natural topics of conversation.  She was feeling ashamed and left out, and she was projecting her frustration, while blaming everyone else.

I'd recommend that you listen to what your daughter is saying--maybe she's telling you exactly what is bothering her, through projection.  Maybe she's worried about being late, because she herself feels like she is running behind all the time?  Is she being left behind by her peers in some way?  Are her younger siblings surpassing her in developmental milestones?  In summary, instead of defending yourself from blame, try to pay attention to the core of the complaint.  Good luck.

[EyesUp]

@CC43 - good questions.  I have answers:

>>>I'd recommend that you listen to what your daughter is saying--maybe she's telling you exactly what is bothering her, through projection.  Maybe she's worried about being late, because she herself feels like she is running behind all the time?

Excellent advice. She's very rarely late, however her uBPD mom has generalized anxiety and is not only always early, but also always anxious about being late. D15 is bonded to mom and is adopting some of mom's behavior...

>>> Is she being left behind by her peers in some way? 
D15 is concerned that some of her friends have jobs or babysit, but she has yet to start.  I've offered to help but been rejected.  Mom seems supportive and has proposed some ideas, but doesn't seem to take action or follow though and also expresses that D15's extra curricular schedule complicates the situation (not for baby sitting).
D15 is also a normal kid that expresses a high degree of social anxiety, and I speculate that she might feel like she's behind in the dating department - which hasn't started yet, as far as I can see. It's normal teen stuff, but how D15 experiences it seems to be heightened in ways that contribute to anxiety in unhealthy ways.

>>> In summary, instead of defending yourself from blame, try to pay attention to the core of the complaint.  Good luck.

Good advice, thanks.

I received the following message from D15 this morning - she's presently at her mom's and the normal transition schedule has her coming to me tomorrow after school.  There's an event for family at her dance studio on Thursday...

"i do not want you coming to my showcase week on thursday. i want mom to take me. you make me incredibly uncomfortable and miserable and i like going to dance on thursday because i get to escape that for an hour and if you come into my class that ruins it. i would like mom take me to dance or i don’t even see the point in going."
and then... "and i thought of that text with my own brain in case you were wondering."

I'm thinking of a potential response, but suggestions are welcome. When she says things like this, I'm just numb.

[CC43]

Eyes, it must be painful to hear that from your daughter.  I'm replying because I've often heard that sort of accusation from my diagnosed stepdaughter.  For example, recently my husband and I supported her by attending an event similar to a recital, for which we travelled a long distance.  My husband and I enjoyed the event, where my stepdaughter performed well, and we praised her extensively.  We also spent time with her touring the area.  My husband and I enjoyed the weekend immensely.  We also paid for travel, hotel, meals, registration and tickets; otherwise she wouldn't have been able to afford it (she's in her mid-20s).

Subsequently, she sent her father a hateful text, accusing us of "ruining" the weekend for her!   I might have been shocked, but this is standard practice for her--blaming is a feature of BPD.  Rather than focus on the reasons for blame, I thought about the core complaint:  that she was disappointed with the trip.  I tend to think that she was unhappy about this particular experience because (i) it was harder than expected (she had to stand up all day); (ii) she didn't get an award or the recognition that she was looking for; and (iii) she might have felt that others performed better than she did.  The experience possibly made her feel inferior.  Even more important was that she was vying to have a career breakthrough at this event, even if the odds were remote.  Rather than deal with the disappointment or re-aligning her expectations to be more realistic, and simply enjoying the opportunity to travel, perform, and share the experience with her father, she lashed out at him.  I'm writing all this in an attempt to demonstrate that if you eliminate the part about blaming you, you might understand the core complaint.  I'm not saying this would always apply to your daughter.  I'm just saying that in my experience, people with BPD will often view life with a very negative lens and feel easily disappointed, and they tend to react by blaming others, especially parents, in order to cope.

Your daughter's core complaint seems to be that she's miserable.  Did you make her feel that way?  I doubt it, seeing how you're trying your best, and you seem very considerate and attentive to your daughter's needs.  I can't help but wonder if something else is going on in her life to make her feel miserable.  If that's the case, the dance might be just an excuse to send that message to you and try to blame you at the same time.  And yes, playing parents off of each other is typical, though not necessarily specific to BPD.

Maybe this post is similar to my last response to you.  I just felt I had to summarize the "ruining the recital" situation because it actually happened to me.

All the best to you.

[livednlearned]

EyesUp, if you knew D15 had BPD or adjacent, would you do anything different?

Is there anything you have thought of doing, but aren't because you're trying to gauge whether this is normal teenage behavior or BPD?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[EyesUp]

EyesUp, if you knew D15 had BPD or adjacent, would you do anything different?

Is there anything you have thought of doing, but aren't because you're trying to gauge whether this is normal teenage behavior or BPD?

Interesting question.  My immediate response:

If BPD had a clear path to diagnosis and/or treatment, I would likely be motivated to take action - however, given that diagnosis and treatment of b-cluster behaviors is often fraught, I feel like I'm stuck in the same old situation I've been in before - striking a balance between "wait and see" in which more concrete information emerges (typically not pleasant), and proactively seeking new ways to approach the situation. 

In the latter case, I can't say it feels like I'm making any progress.  What are the options?
- attempt to engage uBPDx on this topic?  <- low probability of success
- continue to apply jiu-jitsu parenting?  <- long road to potential outcomes
- seek legal intervention?  <- roll the dice, short term pain, and $$$$ with or without a good outcome

In each of these instances, I'm stuck in my own head with medium to long-term plans, and no good way to respond in the immediate situation.

Finally, I don't feel like D15 exhibits "normal" teenage behavior.  I've know plenty of teenagers, as we all have, and not all of them go to war with a parent this way.  2 short years ago, D15 (then 13) and I had a very different, very positive, very good relationship.  The changes have coincided with uBPDx's alienation / parentification campaign, which followed the divorce.  In fact, aspects of the campaign started years in advance, and simply amped up following the separation. 
- discussion about the divorce process, my attorney, and things that were not appropriate to share with a kid at any age - and often highly one-sided, distorted, or false
- lots of bad-mouthing me, my family, my choices ("why is he taking you there?  that place is terrible" or even "your father doesn't know how to be a parent, but don't worry I'll take care of you" etc etc etc)
- lots of critical comments about my house / activities ("I hope you don't have to eat bad food when you're with your father")
- lots of control maneuvers ("don't tell your father that we ...  a, b, c... " or "don't bring your things to your father's house, then he'll need to bring you back again to get x, y, z....")

Could the stress/trauma of all this lead to BPD-ish behavior? You betcha. Does D15 have full blown BPD?  I'd say no, because she is often very restrained and controlled in her behavior.  Not a lot of outbursts.  She's learned to hold it in.   It's certainly not safe to do that with her mom, and she working hard to avoid any kind of interaction with me that will require a lot more interaction...

I'll give the question further thought, but at the moment I feel like there may be a chance to promote independent thinking with D15 that doesn't require direct confrontation with her mom - it only requires promoting some DBT-style skills so that she can self-regulate instead of defaulting to "protect mom" or "make mom happy" (which are naturally commingled with "protect myself" and "make me happy" in a very BPD-ish way).

However none of this yields a playbook for the current situation, which can be precedent setting among many other concerns.

[livednlearned]

Jujitsu parenting is helpful. But I'm wondering if the alienation you're seeing warrants more Divorce Poison (Richard Warshak) level response? That book made the hair on my neck stand up because it gets pretty deep into brainwashing/propaganda level alienation. The comment D15 made "these are my own thoughts" is troubling, and reminds me of examples from that book. 

I'm also wondering if there is a path forward through family counseling, in which you and D15 are doing therapy individually with a counselor, and also together, with the same counselor.

Is there a way to present this to D15 as a natural consequence of eliminating you from  events? "I propose we work through what's happening in counseling together so I understand fully what's happening here."

Thoughts?

[EyesUp]

I'm also wondering if there is a path forward through family counseling, in which you and D15 are doing therapy individually with a counselor, and also together, with the same counselor.

Is there a way to present this to D15 as a natural consequence of eliminating you from  events? "I propose we work through what's happening in counseling together so I understand fully what's happening here."

I think D15 would not go willingly, and in any case this would require alignment with D15's mom, as we have joint decision making on all healthcare...

I agree that "these are my own thoughts" may be telling.

Since I last posted, D15's T has been MIA / unresponsive, and D15 has sent a number of texts asking me to let her go with mom.  Communicating via txt is yet another trap...

Meanwhile, in parallel, uBPDx / D15's mom asked me separately if I had a sitter for Thursday... obviously trying to glean some insight about my plans.  I responded by saying that I plan to attend, I'm aware of D15's concerns, and I'm open to hear her thoughts...   instead of sharing any thoughts, she pivoted to attack re: unrelated topics.  I can't help but wonder if there's something else in play between uBPDx and D15 re: this particular event.

I'm still at an impasse re: how to respond to my own kid.

Back to your prior Q re: responding differently to BPD vs. non-BPD...   did you have something else in mind?

[livednlearned]

I'm still at an impasse re: how to respond to my own kid.

Part of me would want to get a conversation going that you can document, then share with a therapist, or court if it comes to that.

Or get her to trade something. She is asking you to give away something precious (being with her). What can she offer that is meaningful in return (more time with you, therapy together, watching a movie like The Wave to get discussion going on persuasion (without calling it parental alienation). That video has been used in a Family Bridges program, if I'm remembering correctly.

[EyesUp]

Good advice re: documentation - I guess that's the upside of text...

In terms of bartering - I've tried this once before, and it was useful to get her to open up.  I allowed D15 to go to her mom's early in return for a promise to talk about what's bothering her.  Which she did.  And it was illuminating, maybe I'll share in another post.

However I'm concerned about repeating the move, in part because it felt like a big deal, and in part because D15 actually commented on it - along the lines of "you need to buy my agreement" - which was basically accurate.  I'm concerned about making our relationship become transactional.  But, it's a viable tactic to keep in the back pocket - thanks.

At the moment, I'm thinking about breaking all the rules.

I agreed to let D15 go with mom on Thursday, I will stay home with D13 and D8.   

In parallel, uBPDx has escalated in multiple ways over the past ~48 hours.  There is something else in play.  It's super clear that resentment has been building that overrode her attempt to enlist D13 in a private school last year.  And this week I also got some alignment with D13's psychiatrist to try more programmatic therapy before medication.  uBPDx is furious that D13 is not immediately on prozac. We also had a parent teacher conference, which we attended together - in which uBPDx did not raise any concerns, although she told me in advance that the teacher sucks and that she was planning to let her know it. But then didn't. So perhaps the situation with D15 is all part of the mix, and we've just had more interaction than usual - and uBPDx didn't get her wish immediately granted re: prozac for D13, and this reminds her of the last time her plan for D13 was thwarted re: changing school...

Which brings me to the moment:  uBPDx has put in writing that my choices are terrible for the kids, and that they will know about it.  I take this sort of thing seriously - to me, this means that she will disparage me to the kids and tell them that I don't let them go to a better school, that I interfere with their medical care, that I do this because I'm a narcissist and I just want to control everything (she's already done this with D15).

So...

It sort of feels like this might be a moment to make a statement, to place a large chip on the table.

e.g., I could send a short email to the effect of "I have documentation of disparaging remarks you've made about me to D15 over the past two years, which includes telling D15 to delete messages - which I have seen nonetheless. This is highly inappropriate behavior on your part, and it must stop. If the disparagement continues in any form with D15 or her sisters, there will be consequences. I'm open to dialog with a family therapist, or with family members, or even 1:1, in order to ensure that we are all acting with kids' best interest in mind going forward. If I don't receive a response by x date, I will have no choice but to take action independently instead of working together to create a solution."

Yes, I know this sort of thing will likely provoke rage rather than agreement. Yes, the letter is for the judge as much as it is for her.  However it's a chess match, and this documents an attempt was made (after many other attempts, also documented) to resolve a situation.

From a Divorce Poison POV, the advice to engage a team of experts only works for people with tons of $$$ and a magical ability to identify the right experts. I don't have high confidence in my "team" - which only leads back to the judge, anyway. It's a long, painful, expensive road with an uncertain outcome.

And the advice to grey rock is not working at the moment, because uBPDx is super triggered when she doesn't get her way - with school decisions, medical decisions, etc. 

uBPDx is recently engaged and the wedding is planned for this August.  I hoped that she would level off, but if anything the conflict has amped up since the engagement.  My intuition tells me that she wants to move out of town, and she knows that won't be easy - so all of this conflict may be setting the table for her to file a motion to gain primary parent status - which she wanted from the beginning anyway.

I can sit back, wait for it to happen (like in concert with an ongoing alienation/disparagement campaign), and file a counter motion...   or, continue looking for ways to deflate her entitlement balloon sooner rather than later.

Riffing here.  Is it crazy to confront her, thereby letting her know that she risks a lot of exposure if she continues down her stated path?

[GaGrl]

What is the phrasing in your parenting agreement regarding disparagement?

[EyesUp]

This the final clause in a section titled "legal custody"...

"Neither party shall attempt, directly or indirectly, to prejudice the children against the other party or members of that party's family or condone any attempt to estrange the children from the other party or injure or impeded the respect and affection of the children for the other party; but to the contrary, shall at all times encourage and foster in the children respect and affection for both parents."

There are so many documented examples of snarky, if not outright insulting comments about me and my family from uBPDx to D15 via text.

Side note:  The agreement states that during transitions, we deliver the kids and the kids' things to the other parent at specific transition times.  For the past two years, I've voluntarily dropped off and picked up the kids' things at mom's house in order to minimize interaction - we simply use her enclosed front porch to transition the bags while the kids are at school, and I sidestep the chance of her getting triggered if visiting the former marital residence, which I managed to hold onto. 

For the past two weeks, the bags are not on the porch which necessitates a separate trip to mom's during my time.  I don't think this is a coincidence, it's another passive escalation.  My inclination is to send a registered letter:

"For the past two weeks, the kids' bags have not been ready on time and no notice has been given - which necessitates an extra trip to your house during my parenting time.

Going forward, please follow the agreement, ensure the kids are prepared to transition on time, do not withhold the kids' transition items, and deliver the kids' bags to my house no later than the agreed transition time."  etc.

I am mindful that this falls well below the alienation behaviors in terms of priority, so perhaps not worth raising.  Here are the various issues I'm tracking, which are generally agreement violations:

- extensive disparagement of me to D15, 2+ years (too many examples, documented)
- disparagement of me to various people the community and via social media (documented)
- attempted to unilaterally enroll D13 in a private school (documented)
- scheduled and did not communicate annual physicals during my parenting time - twice (I find out indirectly via the healthcare portal)
- delayed responding to my proposals for psych care for D15 and D13 over 30 days
- repeatedly demands information about plans and activities during my parenting time to me, and also the kids (documented)
- repeatedly threatens legal action re: expense reconciliation, even though there has never been a late payment or violation (documented)
- repeatedly threatens legal action re: communicating vacation plans (not required by the agreement unless out of the country - still, she persists)
- withholds D13's ADHD meds (i.e., she picks up the Rx, we split the cost, but she gives me less than half of the meds, which in turn necessitates extra communication and coordination because the Rx cannot be refilled until due - so I'm short on pills at my house.  Yes, I try to pick up the Rx whenever possible to avoid this situation)

This is off the top of my head. I'm sure there's a lot more, probably something more incriminating that I'm blocking at the moment.

In my fantasy world, the threat of exposure or loss would be enough to make her go straight - even if she carried on with resentment toward me.  However, as you might guess, she's far more likely to play the victim card and not really change her ways. 

I am somewhat apprehensive that the judge will make me primary parent for a period of time, and that uBPDx will weaponize it with the kids - "see, dad doesn't want you to be with me!" or that the judge will order a GAL and lots of other $$$$ nonsense that provides zero near-term improvement and only uncertain medium-long-term outcomes.

I also don't really want her to implode before she's remarried, and I'm slightly concerned about her fiance getting wise. Candidly, I want to buy that guy a beer and wish him well... but with all this escalation, I'm concerned she's really going to blow things up.

Still, as Warshak says many times, "Take Action" ...  right?

But Warshak never really says what action to take...

[livednlearned]

I could send a short email to the effect of "I have documentation of disparaging remarks you've made about me to D15 over the past two years, which includes telling D15 to delete messages - which I have seen nonetheless. This is highly inappropriate behavior on your part, and it must stop. If the disparagement continues in any form with D15 or her sisters, there will be consequences. I'm open to dialog with a family therapist, or with family members, or even 1:1, in order to ensure that we are all acting with kids' best interest in mind going forward. If I don't receive a response by x date, I will have no choice but to take action independently instead of working together to create a solution."

I see where you're going here. My current husband has a BPDx who engaged in enabling/alienating behaviors. You and H have a similar writing style  

You're in a one-down position and it's understandable that you want to square your shoulders and send a firm message. However, to me this message doesn't say "I'm a victim here, D15 is a victim here." It says "Do this or else."  

Unless there's a documented record already available that shows how you feel about what's happening, and the view that you and D15 are being harmed here?

My sense is that a message of "Do this or else" is best left to lawyers if that's where this goes. That's their job.

I would also guess that receiving a note like this would motivate her to take legal action before you do.

What do you think about speaking from the heart about what you're going through and your fears for D15? I know it's hard to do when your heart is being hammered by someone with narcissist traits. But that's what is often so odd -- narcissists don't readily show vulnerability. Instead, she has drawn you onto the battleground. As my father used to say you can't win a pissing match with a skunk.

As an aside: One of the things that is so upside-down about our divorces is that many of us go through total free-fall while piecing ourselves back together in the years after. It's hard to look at things from a healthy perspective because often we're healing from abuse and puzzling together for the first time how our family of origin impacted our choice in partners. Our instincts to be vulnerable or show normal emotional responses to things are often dulled.

If you can find a child psychologist you trust who has expertise in this area, who is willing to coach you or help you see what's happening here -- would that be something that could help guide you? This would be someone for you, not for you and D15. It doesn't have to involve your ex.

You want to take action, and that's understandable. You don't want to spend unnecessary $$$, also understandable. And the parenting agreement imposes some limitations on what you can do therapeutically with D15. Maybe finding your own expert who can coach/counsel you will help.

Thoughts?

Failing that, I would spend as much time thinking about the reasonable solution to your documented grievances and approach this strategically. Don't let the judge come up with the solution. Most of them don't want to tell grown adults how to parent their kids. They want someone to raise their hand and say I''m an adult, here's a reasonable solution.

[EyesUp]

I've been on the high road for the better part of 25 years.

Early on, there were a couple of breakup cycles but we dated for almost 10 years. Then there was a break for about a year - It was a huge relief when it first happened - but eventually she reached out, I allowed myself to get charmed, and then we got married and had three kids.

Throughout the relationship, I capitulated most of the time. It wasn't always terrible, and I often like you "take the good with the bad" and keep looking forward.

It's 2 years post-D, and almost 3 since separation.  Though this time, I've continued to stay on the high road. I generally don't respond to the complaint / threat / entitlement outburst du jour.
 But sometimes I send a BIFF response if only to log disagreement rather than leave any possible room for interpretation - hers or anyone else's - that I agree with whatever claim she's made.

I don't feel like this approach has served me well.

She is steadily projecting her own behavior on to me.  She's read the literature and apparently I'm the narcissist / predator / abuser.  I'm sure this has been a great way to enlist sympathy from friends and family.

I can see most of the situation clearly, except for how to respond.  At the moment, D8 and D13 have communicated to others that they like spending time at both homes.  But I'm so apprehensive of uBPDx activating them, too.  She's already demonstrated that she can do it with D15. 

I finally received a response from D15's therapist along the lines of "So sorry to see this but thank you for letting me know.  I am not sure where this is coming from exactly but ultimately if she could say more about whatever her discomfort/“uncomfortable,” is, that would be helpful.  It may have to do with where she is developmentally.  People her age are frequently highly sensitive about how everything reflects of on them because their own identities are so fragile. It sounds like you are trying to be sensitive to her needs.  If I gain any insight, I will encourage her to try and talk about this more constructively."

Not terrible, except for the context I provided at intake which appears to have gone missing.

In parallel, I received another message from uBPDx:  "I feel the need to address your saying you are "concerned" about D15. What is there possibly to be concerned about other than the fact that D15 does not like being at your house?

This is a kid who gets incredible grades, has a great group of friends, does not do drugs, isn't doing stupid stuff with boys, just got into a fantastic summer program, VOLUNTEERS with little kids on the weekend...I could go on and on. Hate to tell you, but this is about as good as it gets with teenagers. Not seeing much to be concerned about."

This comment is in alignment with D15's T's prior comments that D15 might just have normal behavior.   But if our roles were reversed, I'm quite sure that uBPDx would light the world on fire.  Lack of empathy is evident here. 

I've not responded.  Again.  Love your dad's comment about a pissing match with a skunk, btw.  I'm stealing that.  Yes, there's a whole story about my FOO and yes, history repeats, and yes, I've got a permanent poker face and don't easily show emotion, and yes that certainly contributed to certain dynamics in my relationship with uBPDx. Never again. That's just one reason why it's so important to me to take some action before the intergenerational trauma hits D15, D13, and D8 too.

Anyway, thanks for reading along. All three kids just transitioned to my house (after another delay) and will be here for 5 nights...  I'm making fajitas for dinner...  Not sending any threats just yet.  Mainly role playing and spit balling because, well, it's helpful.  Thanks again.