15yo daughter with many challenging behaviors. uBPDx = mom...

[livednlearned]

I guess I don't see it as the high road so much as the strategic road. Meaning, if you can't win a pissing match with a skunk, how do you deal with the skunk?

During the period post-divorce when alienation techniques were peaking, about the time I was reading everything I could, n/BPDx and I were in court waiting our turn. A couple was there (she had an L, he did not) to discuss their teen daughter's communication with her dad on her mobile phone.

Dad was saying his daughter wasn't responding to texts or calls. He said mom was coaching his daughter, turning her against him.

Mom said (through her L) that dad was controlling during the marriage. He was still controlling, and was trying to control his daughter and his ex. Daughter's behaviors were typical and within the norm.

I remember the mom's L saying that dad struggled to connect to his teen daughter and make sense of what were typical teen behaviors.

The judge picked up that thread and commiserated about how, yes, teen girls were complex, and he knew because he raised two. I remember him saying, "My oldest daughter is a lovely woman now with kids of her own but I remember her eye rolls could turn people to stone."

What that had to do with anything, who knows.

Regular parents don't go to court about why a teen girl is or isn't texting back.

People like us, we know it's about something else. Yet, given what I was going through, I figured one parent was alienating the daughter against the target parent.

Except I couldn't for the life of me tell which one, or whether it was both.

That's the episode going on in the back of my mind when I think about your situation.

That, and my ex husband, who eventually represented himself. He kept alleging that I was alienating our son from him. Meanwhile I was sending my son to his dad's home despite resistance.

What shut that business down was having a third-party professional who had monitored our communication and given my ex notes on how he was conducting himself. That led to a showdown between those two, with the professional requesting withdrawal from our case in court.

There is always a gamble when third-party professionals get involved.

What also helped my situation, which doesn't help you unfortunately, is that I was my son's primary caregiver before, during, and after. There wasn't a strong bond between him and his dad, other than a flash in the pan when the alienation was at a peak and our son was hopeful that his dad's interest was genuine and could sustain. Your ex has much more invested in keeping D15 close. 

The battle in the courts was also different than the battle for our son's heart.

It is interesting to me years later to hear S22 say that he caught his dad in a lie, and that's how he knew what was up. It had to do with a call, likely spam, from a Texas area code. S22 (12 or 13 at the time) knew it was a random call but brought it up for no real known reason. n/BPDx grabbed the phone and insisted it was a BF calling me, that I had had an affair, that's why I left, now he had proof. It was the smoking gun to explain why I was the bad parent, not him. It barely registered for me that this was a narrative in play.

I don't know if that makes sense...I guess what I'm trying to say is that S22 had his own litmus test that had nothing to do with what I was doing or saying, and the test wasn't a great one all things considered. S22 said to me, "I knew you couldn't be having an affair because I was with you all the time." Which of course, doesn't prove anything.

I think S22 probably decided I was the more plausible, steady parent who was consistent and reliable and then found kid proof in his kid brain to back it up. That, and his dad wasn't able to keep the routine of a good parent going.

It's an incredibly terrifying and painful thing to go through, watching your kid be used and weaponized and effectively, abused. All I could do was combine a wing and a prayer and strategize to the best of my abilities, almost obsessively so. And cultivate trusted relationships with professionals who seemed to want to help me, including a lawyer who eventually represented me pro bono during the last stretch. I'm not someone who feels comfortable, or felt comfortable (past tense) asking for help -- my orientation in life is to present strength to compensate for childhood victimization. Dealing with alienation of my kid definitely pushed me out of my comfort zone.

You seem to have good instincts and are paying close attention to a worsening pattern, and the T is at least responding (!)

Hopefully what develops next, if it's worse, is also something you can show others and elicit their support.

It's the worse when there are no easy answers.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[EyesUp]

@livenlearned, et. al., 

HNY.

I've been sitting with a lot of the ideas you and others shared in recent weeks/months.

The idea that I've been turning over and over is the sincere heartfelt approach. It's not intuitive and frankly feels dangerous for a number of reasons. And for those reasons, I've really tried to think through why it feels that way, if it could work, if it's worth a risk, and also - why I feel that way.

At a basic level, I've already been parallel parenting with D15's mom for some time.  In my experience, pre-divorce, there were moments of success with a mix of sincerity and calm, patient dialog.  It would sometimes lead to some agreement - or at least stated agreement - but more often than not, it would eventually lead to resentment. My ex would eventually return to the same topics at a later time and state "you always need to win" (projection?), sometimes state that she never really agreed (probably true, or at least a real feeling), and sometimes state that the prior conversation never happened at all... (full gaslight mode). These dynamics contributed to a breakdown of trust and to the eventual end of the marriage. 

Throughout and since the divorce, my uBPDxw has sent multiple threats to file a motion of contempt or some other motion in order to get more control of the kids (vs. our current 50-50 parenting plan and decision making agreement).  She has persistently shared her feelings with D15 - about the divorce proceedings and other adult matters that are not really appropriate to share with the kids (parentification).  She has also persistently disparaged me to D15 in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, while occasionally accusing me of doing the same (accusations are confessions).  She seems to be fully invested in the ideas that:

- I am a narcissist that always needs to win 
- I only care about myself, not about the kids - and comments about the kids' wellbeing are actually in my own self-interest
- I am abusive to her and I continue to manipulate her and/or the kids (and she has shared this idea with D15), e.g., our agreement states that if I have employer-provided healthcare, I will keep her on the policy if ex-spouses are allowed on the policy. I became self-employed after the divorce and continued to keep her on my self-paid insurance for over a year at my expense.  At some point after she secured a new fulltime job (first time in > 4 years), I asked if it made sense to explore insurance options. From her POV, that was abuse and manipulation.  Eventually, she got her own insurance - with great resentment...
  
Long story short, there's not much trust in our current dynamic, and with a long history of me saying "up" and her hearing "down" - I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect a different response at this point. 

That said, I have attempted to broach a few topics with her via email and invited her to to have phone call (if she wants) and we'll see where it goes. 

In the meantime, D15 has stated that her T "is not on your side" (to me), and thinks she should stay with her mom if that's what she wants.  I have not heard anything from the T, and so I imagine that the T listened and did not invalidate D15's feelings, which D15 interprets as agreement. 

uBPDxw has texted that if D15 doesn't feel safe at my house, she is old enough to listen to her own feelings... I reminded uBPDxw that D15 can get very spicy and unreasonable with both of us, often in emotionally charged situations, and that I'd really appreciate it if she'd reinforce the idea that both parents love D15 - I guess a hint of sincerity in there after all.  Crickets.

I know I set this thread up from the start to explore if D15 may meet some BPD criteria or if she's merely a raging teen, or if there is some other influence in play.  As I've been thinking it over for some weeks, I think it's probably a mix.  

I recall reading somewhere, probably here, a recommendation to send a particular BPD overview to a teen's therapist with an open-ended question along the lines of "what do you think of this approach?" in order to get dialog going with a particular treatment in mind - but I can't place it - does this ring a bell?

As always, thank you.

[kells76]

EyesUp, with all this talk from Mom and D15 about D15 not spending time with you -- does D15 still come over?

Just curious about the dynamic, and wondering if D15 "talking a big game" about not coming over somehow smooths things over between her and her mom... but if she still spends time with you, that speaks to her wanting to be with you, but not able to articulate it safely.

H's kids' mom talked a big game about not wanting them to go on an international trip with us,  but when it came down to day of departure, she didn't interfere (more than she already had emotionally  ) and both the kids got on the plane.

IDK. Curious how much of the "I don't want to be at Dad's" talk translates into days lost. With SD15 we did lose some overnights -- there was some translation of the talk into action -- but it has settled down, not escalated.

I also wonder how much of your D15's distress is tied to Mom's upcoming marriage. Is she marrying her AP?

[livednlearned]

I recall reading somewhere, probably here, a recommendation to send a particular BPD overview to a teen's therapist with an open-ended question along the lines of "what do you think of this approach?" in order to get dialog going with a particular treatment in mind - but I can't place it - does this ring a bell?

Do you have a sense whether the therapist is part of a coalition against you?

I would want to tease that out as much as possible. You mention it's hard to tell, and I'm stunned on our end how long it takes for Ts to respond. Most of them do the admin side themselves, it seems.

In general, I try to take out the BPD and think about doing what my instincts say, with a big dose of the relationship/communication skills I've learned here.

Something I would look closely at is:

1. Ex says you're a narcissist -- she's probably saying this to the T
2. What don't narcissists do -- do that.
3. Self reflect, take responsibility for things, ask for advice, show humility, focus on D15's well-being

It seems like none of that will be challenging for you.

What might be challenging is to focus on what you have control over, which isn't mom. It's hard to have these conversations with MH professionals because we're living the dysfunction, and we want to name it. For all kinds of  reasons, that door is shut to us until they see it and name it.

Unless you feel comfortable saying, "My kid's mother thinks I'm a narcissist. I know what the Internet says about that, but I wanted the opinion of a professional, so I'm seeing a T and if you think it might help, I'm willing to grant consent to talk to them."

[EyesUp]

Thanks, both.

D15 declared that she didn't want to spend time with me after camp this past summer.  She tearfully said "No child should have to be away from their mom for 2 weeks" - which sounded a lot like my uBPDxw.  In the end, I agreed to trade an extra night with mom for her going on a short trip with her two sisters and with me, and she was ultimately with me for something like 12 of 14 scheduled overnights in August.

Since then, she has repeatedly begged or stolen additional nights with mom.  It's usually one extra night at mom's at the end of my parenting time when I have the long weekend (we have a 2-2-5 schedule).  Probably +4 nights to mom, although I got a couple back recently when mom had covid.  I should confirm the math, but let's say mom got 187 nights in 2023 for D15 while I had D13 and D8 for 182 nights.  Not sure that any judge will view this as a major change of circumstances or deviation from plan, but there has been a tilt in mom's favor and mom did send an email stating that if this continues she "will have to take some action to protect D15".

Nonetheless, I have capitulated to D15 multiple times - in part to reduce the conflict/avoid escalation, in part to give D15 some sense of control (though admittedly not the good kind).

uBPDxw is not marrying the AP, and the kids know nothing about the affair(s) - AP lives nearby and his daughter is in D8's class and likely will be for the next 10 years, so I have good reason to never expose uBPDxw to the kids.  Perhaps some day in the distant future I will let them know that there's another side to the story.  However even that is fraught, as uBPDxw's story, which was forming with the marriage counselor pre-D, and became a go-to post-D narrative, is that I was a horribly abusive spouse, she was a victim, her AP gave her validation that she never had at home, i.e., she made a bad choice because she was in a bad marriage, so it wasn't really her fault and now she's happily free of the bad marriage (but somehow still parenting with me... and, wait - more evidence that I'm a manipulator: she didn't get primary parent from the terrible anti-mom female judge that signed off on the 50-50 parenting plan that uBPDxw agreed to, i.e., wasn't ordered...).

But I digress.

It did occur to me that D15 may be aiming for more time with mom because she doesn't want to let go of her relationship with mom now that mom has someone new in her life, and so finagling time with mom interrupts mom's time with the soon-to-be stepdad.  Although D15 has made a great show of being happy for mom, looking forward to the wedding and participating, etc.  I know that D15's relationship with the fiance (is there a better term or acronym, I can't keep up!) got off to a rocky start - uBPDxw actually mentioned this - but it seems to have smoothed over from what I can see.

What's more concerning is that D15 lies to her mom about me / my house.  I receive notes from mom stating that D15 says that...
- the house is dirty
- there is no shampoo
- her bed is broken
- she doesn't have a blanket
- I won't buy her allergy meds

etc.

I've gently pointed out to uBPDxw that there is a pattern of false claims, that D15 is anxious/avoidant, and that I'd appreciate it if she would encourage D15 to communicate directly with me instead of relaying messages on D15's behalf.

I have not pointed out (directly) that D15 is not only lying about dad, but also lying to mom.  Or that mom is actively participating in a triangulation dynamic instead of teaching / promoting / demonstrating healthier independent thinking, confidence, and accountability...   I am tiptoeing toward that goal. However, without maximum diplomacy, I expect uBPDxw to declare "once again, you have turned everything around at me and made everything my fault!  because you are a narcissist!  see kids - dad's against mom and never accepts any responsibility - he can't even accept that D15 just doesn't like him on her own!"

In summary, yes D15 still comes to my house - but often seeks a way to come late / leave early, persistently states that she's miserable at my house and if I cared about her I wouldn't force her to come, that she's going to be 16 soon and I can't control her forever (not sure what age has to do with it - emancipation is 18 in our state), that she doesn't care what a piece of paper says - she's a human and should have self-determination... (actually, mom probably tells D15 that we have to follow the agreement which states the parenting schedule and child support continues until emancipation 18).  D15 has taken virtually everything from her room at "my" house to her mom's - clothes, you name it - so often needs to go to mom's for supplies.

I've shared far more here than with D15's T...  as I avoid dumping too much too quickly.  I am thinking about how to broach a post-holiday update...   I agree that it's possible that there is already some alliance between uBPDxw - D15 - and D15's T (an unwitting participant in another triangle).

Also agree with earlier comments re: marathon vs. sprint, but I'd like to feel like I'm actually pacing a marathon - vs playing rugby.

At the core of this:  uBPDxw disparages me to D15.  D15's rejection behaviors are consistent with alienation as well as her longstanding / pre-D anxious/avoidant behaviors.  

Can I become a better teen communicator and demonstrate support and safety to D15 and her sisters - yes, always working on this.  However there is an ongoing campaign of sorts to show that I'm not trustworthy - and zero support to show otherwise - so it's not really surprising that D15 arrives at the conclusion that it's "safer" at mom's if she isn't happy at dad's.

I can proactively provide all the shampoo in the world, but D15 is at the point where she will either reject the shampoo (which she has always used, asked for) or tell me that I'm trying to buy her acceptance and she won't fall for it...

I told her that I want to repair our relationship in the new year - she responded by saying "well, I don't!" and running to her room.

[kells76]

What's more concerning is that D15 lies to her mom about me / my house.  I receive notes from mom stating that D15 says that...
- the house is dirty
- there is no shampoo
- her bed is broken
- she doesn't have a blanket
- I won't buy her allergy meds

etc.

Isn't your ex a mandatory reporter? If she is a teacher (I think I read that in a previous post), she is legally required to report suspicions of neglect.

It might be, um, interesting to think about replying to those notes with "Then make a report to make it better for the kids... I can't imagine why you wouldn't report suspected neglect -- it might even be criminal not to report it".

IDK -- she's trying to have it both ways. "You're neglectful" but she doesn't want it to actually be fixed -- she wants to perennially hold that over you, she doesn't want a solution (not saying you're neglectful, but saying -- your ex says you are and at the same time doesn't want it to be better for your kids).

Like I said, I'm not necessarily recommending it, but it would be... interesting to call her bluff.

[EyesUp]

@kells...

Interesting gambit.

Do you think it's better to call now, or to continue to bank months of communication in case a motion is filed at some later date - at which point, the counter motion would almost certainly note that issues have been identified and ignored many times - if there was a real concern, why wasn't it reported much sooner?  PS, why didn't any of the three Ts that have worked with D15 in the past ~2 years report - aren't they also mandatory reporters?

My question is:  What's the benefit of the call?

In this game, my feeling is that it's better to try to diffuse conflict than raise stakes because the other side (speaking in legal terms) is already either raising stakes or taking that posture all the time.

Even when I'm tempted to "square my shoulders" as previously noted, I don't do it. More like dream about it.  I consistently take the high road and avoid conflict - either because I'm not confident in the outcome, insecure in my ability to manage the process, or because I genuinely don't believe that direct confrontation is the best path for the desired outcome - which is about the kids' wellbeing and achieving some basic coparenting or at least copacetic parallel parenting.  I know that's almost naive to hope for, but I'm nothing if not an optimist (with a streak of acquired realism as I emerge from years of wandering in BPD land). 

To whatever extent I've internalized and adopted some jiu-jitsu tactics with uBPDxw (or D15 for that matter), I'm more inclined to go with "inception" than with confrontation.  The fact that I'm actively strategizing how to induce fairness and reason and something that resembles empathy in my uBDPxw makes me feel like maybe I am the manipulative narc that only needs to win...  still fighting the same old battles, but in a new venue.

I just want to take my kid car shopping next year, and talk about new music, and eventually visit colleges, and then help furnish her first apartment, and hopefully get to a point where I can give her fiance a stern look and then a big hug. All that stuff.

Somehow calling uBPDxw and asking why she hasn't reported abuse - which will almost certainly get replayed for D15 and D15's T and possibly twisted a bit in the retelling - feels like inviting chaos.  Maybe I'm not seeing it the way it's intended?

Imagine if she takes action and makes the call. The investigation would be unlikely to reveal abuse, but would potentially reveal that she's stoking conflict when there isn't any. What happens when a BPD doesn't get their way?  The system is rigged against her!  More evidence of the anti-mom corrupt family court system (did I mention that she refuses to use OFW because it's well known that it's a tool that manipulative dads use to control victim moms?).  i.e., even if the gambit led to some documentation in my long-term favor, I believe that uBPDxw would find a way to double down on her narrative that I'm the bad guy and she's a victim.  It's possible that she might be slightly exposed in the process, but to what good effect?  Destablizing her won't help her achieve a stable relationship with the new guy or be a better parent. I'm pretty sure that calling a bluff on my uBPDxw when she's planning a wedding is more likely to be viewed as me having sour grapes than as a tool to deflate her entitlement balloon...

[kells76]

Hey... I want to apologize for how my last post likely came across. It really wasn't a stabilizing or centering suggestion, and after I thought about it a bit last night, I think what was going on was I didn't have awareness of how my feelings about our situation with the kids sneak into my feelings about other similar situations. So if I'm in a place where I'm frustrated with the kids' mom, or beating my head against a wall, or feeling like there's no good option on the table, that can come across in my feedback to others.

My T had just raised the issue of mandatory reporting with me last week after some stuff I told her I'd heard from the kids about their mom's house. And, H has been in the position before of Mom working out a whole parenting schedule with him, then telling him "I'm afraid you're going to abuse the kids". So that mentality of "then make the  report" was on my mind, along with the feeling of our hands being tied because if we try to use an existing system to help the kids (i.e. then if we make a report), it'll likely destabilize things at their mom's house and entrench the kids (mostly SD15) in defensiveness against us.

So I apologize for posting when I was triggered but had no awareness of being triggered. I definitely have a blind spot and now I'm more aware of it.

I think your perspective here makes sense, and I can relate to it:

uBPDxw would find a way to double down on her narrative that I'm the bad guy and she's a victim.  It's possible that she might be slightly exposed in the process, but to what good effect?  Destablizing her won't help her achieve a stable relationship with the new guy or be a better parent. I'm pretty sure that calling a bluff on my uBPDxw when she's planning a wedding is more likely to be viewed as me having sour grapes than as a tool to deflate her entitlement balloon...

[EyesUp]

@kells - no worries.

Thanks for giving my situation some attention - it's always helpful to compare ideas.  I wish I could offer some productive ideas for you - but as you can see, I'm stymied by own situation.

Also, there may be a time and place where your suggestion is just the right thing. 

In the meantime, I think I need to focus on interactions with D15, how to engage her T, and bringing up the rear on this list is my uBPDxw...

Found out that D13 has covid this AM, so she's home with me and likely won't transition to her mom later today... this will surely be a trigger.  Red alert!  Shields up!

[kells76]

I wish I could offer some productive ideas for you - but as you can see, I'm stymied by own situation.

Then I guess we're in the same boat    as I also wish I could offer some productive ideas for you!

Going "back to basics", if I'm remembering your core question, it's:

how to decide whether to "strike when the iron is hot" versus "ride it out", when D15 at minimum is enmeshed and at worst may have BPD traits?

Is that close?

Have you ever listed out what you'd need to have/know in order to feel an overwhelming sense of assurance that it's time to "strike"? I.e., if you were to put together a list of ideal circumstances for making a big legal move, what'd be on the list?

Maybe at some level you know you it isn't the right time, and your intuition is finding problems with those "legal strike" paths forward, to stop you from doing what would be counterproductive now (but what might not be counterproductive at another time)?

[EyesUp]

Thanks for asking.

For better or worse, my default mode is to avoid legal action rather than plan it.  Why?

If there was egregious/overt abuse, of course I would take action.  But that's the thing with emotional abuse - it's a blind spot for almost everyone, including the family court system, and outcomes are uncertain.

When my uBPDxw first took unilateral action to enroll D13 in a private school (which happened to be where uBPDxw works), I consulted my atty, and of course my atty was ready to go all in and file a motion and said that our judge (in our county, D cases typically remain with the same judge if the parties return for whatever reason...) would not be amused.

However, I've also been advised that judges generally don't like to see "customers" return - and are particularly circumspect when parents return quickly, e.g., less than a year, after first coming to an agreement (as we did) or receiving a ruling.  My interpretation is:  reasonable adults either follow their own agreements or taking rulings seriously - therefore, cases that return quickly to the judge probably involve one or more unreasonable people - and it's not always immediately clear to the judge who is unreasonable (one or both of the parties). 

While my documentation of unilateral activity was very clear, several things gave me pause:
1) immediate action from the judge awarding me primary parent status - which my uBPDxw would almost certainly weaponize, and which the kids would find troubling. they love their mom (enmeshed or otherwise), and would likely develop resentment toward me for limiting their time with her
2) counter motion from uBPDxw with lots of claims re: malnourishment or whatever... leading to appointment of a GAL and all that good stuff
3) orders for family therapy and/or court-appointed therapists for one or more kids - a process that's hit or miss at best, and which I don't trust my uBPDxw to participate in honestly or fairly - for me or for the kids

This is more or less off the top of my head. 

In short, I've been partly invested playing the long game (in time, uBPDxw will get bored or calm down or wander off - and/or the kids will see that I'm safe, stable, etc.), and partly invested in ye olde patterns of mitigating uBPDxw's drama via a mix of greyrock, non-response/no-engagement, or at most, super concise responses.

However, none of this has stopped or mitigated uBPDxw's need to "win" with D15.

Another $0.02 of background context.

At one point almost 20 years ago, before we were married, uBPDxw and I broke up. At that time, one of my best friends and his wife - both friends of mine from college - detached.  Although we remained connected on facebook and would occasionally trade messages.  Fast forward to a year after uBPDxw and I divorced...  I heard from my old friend who read about the divorce from my xw on facebook...  my friend apologized to me and told me that way back when, uBPDxw said that she wanted my friends to be "on her side" and that she never felt good about it, and that later uBPDxw fell out with them, too.  That was eye opening.  At various points, uBPDxw alienated my family, friends, and colleagues - but this was perhaps the only time someone came back much later to tell me that it was explicitly by request.

I have no doubt that uBPDxw wants to "win" with D15 - and all three kids. It's just the way she is. And she'll try to make it happen, even if it's not in her best interest with her fiance or hurtful to the kids.

My avoidant behaviors probably don't help the situation, although I am working to be more proactive and communicative where difficult/emotional stuff is concerned. 

So, no, I've never even considered my criteria for legal action - when I'm basically predisposed to avoid it. If the situation at mom's house was overt abuse, I'd be building a case. But what many of here have to deal with doesn't leave visible bruises - it's much more insidious.  And I don't actually believe that there is a legal remedy for the psychological/social/family dynamics issues in play.

So I put way more energy into exploring how to participate in the family in a way that reinforces the good stuff for my kids - and hopefully mitigating the worst of what uBPDxw brings to the mix.

Last comment: I fear I'm not blameless in this mix - my FOO has a strong dose of maladaptation, which I'm sure contributed to how I came to be in this situation, and which I continue to study (albeit a bit late for my kids' benefit)...  Candidly, if I spell it all out, I probably sound a bit BPDish myself:  identifying issues with everyone around me...  I do fear that it's a weapon my uBPDxw can use somehow:  "well, he doesn't provide a healthy relationship with the kids' grandmother, and he doesn't even speak with his own sister" (well, half-sister).  I don't post about my FOO much, because I've limited my contact with my mother and sister for years - long before the divorce, and long before I read anything about LC or NC in the literature. But nonetheless, the history is there. I do wish I could provide better family events for my kids.

I do think that there's enmeshment and alienation in play.  Is it possible to address one without the other?  Is there a way to approach this other than tiptoe'ing in with D15's T?

Sometimes I think about simply sending over the most inflammatory text messages between D15 and her mom and asking the T what she makes of it.  But then I worry - what if the T simply sees that as evidence of monitoring/controlling behavior - attempting to manipulate the process - thereby validating uBPDxw's likely claim that I'm the abuser.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[livednlearned]

My default is to be strategic, probably to a fault -- I completely understand the thinking behind why you don't want to risk legal action. I would do the same in your shoes.

But I'm wondering if you can use the presence of family law court as imaginary leverage.

I don't know how to phrase this well and I'm not even sure what this would look like, but these circumstances can bring us to the brink of desperation, so I'm in that space here, trying to find a strategy that kind of boxes mom in with her own logic.

For example, what if you suggest doing family counseling with D15?

Maybe that's your in with the T. Ask the T what she thinks of the idea -- she might like it because it puts you in the room with D15 so she can see the dynamic more clearly. Not that she would say yes, or that you would even get permission from mom, but it's you proposing a reasonable solution to a real problem. It gets you in the door by saying: mom says I'm x. If I'm x, can you help me get to y or at least suggest ways to do that? No reasonable person would shoot down a solution to the problem they identified. This flushes out what you know to be true: mom is not a reasonable person.

It's true that family law courts can be a toss up. They can also surprise you. Judges don't like repeat customers but if you come in with a list of reasonable ways to repair the relationship with your kid, you become one of them. You think like a judge would think.

This is just an example: "This mom says her daughter hates her dad: he's negligent and he's abusive. Dad says he offered to pay for a custody evaluator, where he recommends 3 and mom chooses 1. Seems reasonable. Why would she say no? She's saying he's a negligent parent. Something doesn't make sense. Then here, he says he's offering to give up ____ time with his daughter if mom will agree he and D15 go to family counseling. It doesn't work like that, so that part won't work but the solution on balance is reasonable. Why would mom say no? Seems like therapy would help."  

I'm not recommending you solve the problem legally because I agree, courts aren't good at the messy family stuff, especially when things are court ordered and neither mom nor dad get a choice in who they work with.

But I do think it's helpful to use court as imaginary leverage and to keep the prospect of shining light on what mom is saying no to in your back pocket.

Proposing reasonable solutions (that were proposed with a ton of forethought) is what turned my case around. Judges are considered the "supreme" witness in a case, so you are essentially ensuring that they witness what you are witnessing, which is someone rejecting reasonable solutions because they don't want to solve them. Propose reasonable solutions to document that narrative, then tell the story with documentation in court. Meanwhile, hope that your ex will become boxed in by her own logic, which isn't impossible now that a third-party professional is involved. The more sunlight, the better. She has allowed some sunlight in.

Even if you don't go to court, you can still use this approach with other third-party professionals. Find a way to become an ally with the T -- she is invested in D15's well-being. She may not know which parent to trust because D15 is enmeshed with mom.

Your instinct to get in touch with the T seems spot-on. The tricky part is countering the narrative -- asking T for advice to solve the problem mom has teed up and framed.

I don't know if any of this helps. Sometimes just pushing against an idea can help you see a new path that's worth considering.

EDITED to add: Most people who go to court -- repeat customers -- don't propose reasonable solutions. They just don't. Including lawyers. They go to the judge with the expectation that the judge will referee the fight.

What is different is proposing a solution to the problem your ex has identified.

That is rare.

You're not planning to go to court, although it's probably good to keep it in your line of sight just in case -- you're using the same approach in the court of public opinion, which at this point is the T.

It's the same idea, since the T seems to be judging which parent is problematic.

Hope that makes sense 

[EyesUp]

I need a coach.

It's been almost constant conflict since my last post.

D15's T has not contacted me, which isn't auspicious as I identified her and coordinated the initial consultation and onboarding.

Too many things to go into, however today, uBPDxw sent a list of things I've done that she finds problematic - I won't go into it here, but I don't think CPS or anyone else would find the issues she cited as abusive or even particularly egregious.   

As part of her complaint, she mentioned for the first time that she's a mandatory reporter... which I take as a passive threat and an indication that she's actively thinking about how to take some action on this front.

Then, later today, D15 sent a txt (next week is school vacation, the kids are with me):

"i’m not going to xxx with you. i already set up something with my friend and i can stay at her house when mom isn’t home. i have free will and i do not need to do anything with you. i’m staying home."

The kids were with me for the past two days, and just transitioned back to their mom after school.  The text came about an hour after D15 got to mom's house.

In a normal co-parenting relationship, I'd hope to work my X and workshop a response - as this behavior reflects both of us, and can be applied to either of us - or others.

However it's clear that approaching my uBPDxw for, well, anything, is a non-starter - particularly at the moment.

So, I may need to respond to uBPDxw.   And I do need to respond to D15.

Another piece of context - Before I dropped D15 at school this morning, I said "I love you, I want you to be happy next week, please let me know if there's anything you want to do next week when we get back from xxx" - there was no response, but that's par for the course.

This sets a really challenging precedent for the summer - when uBPDxw will go on a honeymoon and the kids will transition to me.  We have about 3 weeks together.  What happens if then-D16 attempts to take more unilateral action?

In my state, emancipation is 18.  Another side, at one point, D15 mentioned that her T basically told her to ride it out until she's 17.  Without knowing exactly what the T actually said, it's hard to say if that was a helpful comment or not...

[livednlearned]

EyesUp, the legal concerns hinted at by your ex. Are they separate in your mind from the relationship with D15?

Meaning, are you connecting something with D15 means escalating what's going on with mom?

Or

Mom's escalations suggest she is in high gear and this is fueling D15.

I know these things are so specific to the context and what you've tried and are already doing, and this is really tense. It might be mom creating this, and I'm also going to suggest a possibility that there is something temporary here too.

The following is a suggestion only -- it reflects something going on with friends of mine (happy, married) and their 15yo daughter, who is wonderful and impossible.

15yo girl life now is vicious. It might be worse with girls now more than it's ever been. Even her real friends in real life can be sharks in a tank not to mention what happens online, a level of vicious I can barely read. What went on for me at age 13 seems to be happening now to girls at 15, there's a definite generational shift setting this cohort back emotionally. That's going to make the secondary importance of you as her parent intensely aggravating because (in her mind) you don't get it, even though you might. Could it be separate from the stuff your ex is doing -- could it be fury about the insanity of her specific age.

I say this only because yes - your wife is engaged in alienation. If you were to extract her from the equation (say she decided to hand parenting over to you for 5 years while she finds herself in the Bahamas), how would you respond to D15? Not to her staying at mom's house, but what if she said this about staying with her BF for a week.

"Ok, I'll miss you! Your siblings will really miss you. You have a plan -- I wish you were coming and I also understand this is important to you. How about going forward when you want to do stuff like this that's well thought out and important to you, we also figure out how a way to do something together a different time?"

Again, I know these things are so specific to our contexts. I guess I'm looking at what might be happening in addition to alienation behaviors and focus there. A bit of a nail biter when the other stuff is happening but it may also center D15 if you suggest something that would be ok under less alienating circumstances.

[EyesUp]

@LNL, thanks - good questions.

From the start, I've been jammed trying to determine when I'm dealing with D15 being a spicy 15yo vs. uBPDxw's influence vs. D15's own behavioral situation, or some combination.

Does it make a difference?  It seems like it does.

My intuition is that my X has whipped up a storm over the past ~3 years, and now D15 has been sucked in and whatever is going on with her 15yo self is feeding energy right back to her mom - so today's mix of messages is all part of the chaos.  It doesn't matter who started it, they are mutually energized by it.

In general, I like your suggestion, and in fact I'm fine with D15 doing her own thing.  I already asked her to tell me if she wanted to make some plans during the break.  I already recognize that we're getting to a point when it's difficult to make plans for D8, 13, and 15 together.  And I accept that it's actually easier and in some ways even healthier to do some things with D8 and 13 without D15.  So I'm less concerned about D15 sitting this one out than I am about how to simply respond in an effective manner.

The suggested script is fine, until we get to "we also figure out a way to do something together a different time?" - that would be met with an immediate "NO.  I don't want to do anything with you, ever. And that's never going to change. You ruined my life. I hate you."

I'm more inclined to go with something along the lines of "and whenever you're ready, I'll always be here, and you'll always be welcome to join" - although that sort of gives her carte blanche to call her own shots, or to assume that I'm fine with her not joining - which in a disordered moment could be reframed as evidence that I don't care about her - see - proof!  Dad didn't even care when I did a, b, c.

A big part of the dynamic is about her asserting independence and autonomy - which is normal and healthy and age appropriate - however she's going about it in a needlessly combative and belligerent way.  I feel like if I was an effective parent, I'd be able to encourage her to see that she can take me up on the offer to make plans during break without turning the exchange into scorched earth.

So, from your vantage point near the front lines of post-pandemic 15yo social dynamics, what should I expect? 

Does this wave crest before or after she goes to college?  How do I support her in any way while this storm continues?   She's already said that she doesn't want any driving lessons with me, doesn't want to visit colleges with me, doesn't want to discuss school with me... doesn't want anything to do with me.  Yet, she mostly follows the parenting plan, comes to my house and bakes cookies and eats what I cook and has no problem sending Amazon requests for all sorts of stuff, which I generally approve (Naturally, I don't love the entitlement behavior either). I give her a ton of space to do what she wants, offer options and choices, and ask open ended questions.

A couple of weeks ago, we were early for her dance class so I asked if she wanted to go to the market to pick out anything for the rest of the weekend - for meals or baking or anything.  Her response was "WHAT?  Don't you think I have any friends?  You need to take me to get groceries because I don't have anyone to talk to at the studio?  Why would you think that?  Of course I don't want to go to the store with you, I just want to go to the studio to see my friends, why can't you just drop me off early?"  Then she blocked her ears, like a 5yo.

It's all a bit gaslight-y and yet also obviously just emoting in an inflamed manner because a) she's anxious about how to ask to get whatever it is she wants, b) she's convinced I'm evil anyway.

I struggle with enforcing some basic expectations about civility vs. worrying that anything I say will be automatically recast as unreasonably critical, invalidating, and reinforce whatever ideas she has that I'm the problem...

So... back to her unilateral declaration of independence for next week.  Is there a way to temper the acceptance with some degree of parental approval?  Or to set some productive precedent ahead of the next skirmish?

[EyesUp]

A possible moment of clarity.

First, I went ahead and re-validated D15 - told her that it's normal for our routines to change, for her to value her increasing independence, and that it's ok to make plans with a friend and to skip the family trip. 

Not sure any of this made a difference, or was absorbed in any way - as I was met with a stone face and silence.  Zero acknowledgement. Nonetheless, I think it was the right way to respond.  @LnL, thanks for the nudge in this direction.

Next, I needed to coordinate with D15's mom on plan specifics. I'm always on high alert around this sort of communication.

I texted my uBPDxw to ask for D15's friend's parent contact info because (and I'm upset with myself for this) I could not find it - after a LOT of searching. I know these people and have met them multiple times, and I'm usually meticulous about keeping contacts - but I just could not find the info, and D15 simply said "ask mom" and refused to assist. I sensed a setup coming.

So I texted D15's mom for the info.

I should have left it at that, but I added "if you feel it might be helpful to nudge D15 away from avoidant behaviors, please give her the number to give to me. Just a thought."

Quickly received a response...  "can't send it now, will send ASAP"

Then about an hour later, "Wow, you are so hard on her. She’s 15 years old, for gods sake. How about you cut her some slack. This week is already stressful for her."

And that's when it hit me: uBPDxw and D15 are deeply enmeshed. They each perceive any conflict with me as an assault on the other, and vice versa.

And D15's mom will withhold the contact info until the last possible moment to ensure that I look bad, or whatever.

I basically already perceived some enmeshment was in play, but uBPDxw's critique really brings it home, because I gave D15 zero push back on sitting out this week, encouraged her to make plans with friends in the first place, and then proactively affirmed to her that wanting independence is normal, and ok, and I get it, and I support it.

Not sure any of this is being hard on D15. 

But uBPDxw sees my comment about avoidant behavior as critical - even though it wasn't to D15.  This was a rare opportunity to do some co-parenting and of course it went nowhere, because it would require uBPDxw to acknowledge an issue with D15, which is akin to acknowledging an issue with herself... it's not going to happen.

And just like that, I realized that whatever bond exists between D15 and her mom may be impenetrable, and that my best bet might be to play things with D15 slow and steady.  I'm not saying "that's it" - just that at this moment, it feels likely. I remain open to any and all possible outcomes...

I was also reminded another small thing last summer:  I learned that uBPDxw asked D15 where shot the case for her airpods, D15 responded "Staples" rather than saying "Dad got them for me from Amazon" - I didn't quite understand why D15 felt the need to do this, except in the frame of enmeshment, it's clear that D15 cannot say or acknowledge anything even remotely positive about me to her mother.

Of course the T remains MIA - probably cannot hear anything I might have to say with D15 screaming in one ear and uBPDxw screaming in the other.

So, what stage of alienation, parentification, etc., is this? 

[GaGrl]

Those are some interesting points. It might be that D15, as the first daughter, has taken the brunt of the BPD tendency to treat children as an extension of themselves. This might have been going on longer than you've been fully aware...for years...but it is becoming more obvious as D15 strives for independence.

How long before it crests? Hard to say. College will be interesting, as your ex may be far too intrusive on D15's life away from home.

[livednlearned]

I added "if you feel it might be helpful to nudge D15 away from avoidant behaviors, please give her the number to give to me. Just a thought."

What about the message do you regret sending? Is it the message itself, or how it's written?

BPD will make things like this feel like lit match on gas, so to speak.   A teen girl won't do much better.

I ask because H ran into this a lot with his ex too. It took a while for him to decide it was worth it to take the extra minutes and re-read and often re-write his messages. He was in locked horns mode (understandable) for the first 5 years or so. It was easier for me to read the message as a neutral party, especially anything that suggested control, which BPDx was particularly sensitive to. Never mind she was engaged in worse behaviors...

uBPDxw and D15 are deeply enmeshed. They each perceive any conflict with me as an assault on the other, and vice versa.

I may be naive but I hold out hope that their enmeshment is somewhat fluid still.

I gave D15 zero push back on sitting out this week, encouraged her to make plans with friends in the first place, and then proactively affirmed to her that wanting independence is normal, and ok, and I get it, and I support it.

A loyalty bind with her mom might look a lot like full-blown enmeshment. I guess because she's 15 and you are working to understand the dynamic, I would hope this enmeshment is not necessarily a done deal.

uBPDxw sees my comment about avoidant behavior as critical - even though it wasn't to D15.

 

I guess like you said, these messages are being shared or at least interpreted and shared directly with D15.

I'm not sure I would've taken "avoidant behaviors" well as a teen girl ... even if it were true.

It's tough to be the less-disordered parent. There is so much worse happening with the other parent it makes it hard to pay attention to other stuff, including things more in our control, like what we say and do. Especially because it's often a long-game effort.

I'm not sure this is a perfect example but it comes to mind: H would drive 5.5 hours to see his son (now 24) and there were times SS24 would text H on the road to say don't bother coming, he wasn't feeling well. Later, I overheard BPD mom complaining via Facetime to my stepdaughter about H. An awful thing to do that to your kid, but the content caught my attention. BPD mom said, "just because he pays child support he thinks he can just walk into my house like he owns it." Of course H didn't believe that, but I asked him about whether he went in the house, and would it help if he didn't. He was really annoyed and hurt to drive all that way only to be turned back. He started to suggest to SS24 that they meet somewhere nearby to see if that made things any better. It wasn't a completely tidy solution to the problem because other things were also ironed out but eventually that relationship improved, not just because of that one thing although I suspect it helped.

This was a rare opportunity to do some co-parenting and of course it went nowhere, because it would require uBPDxw to acknowledge an issue with D15, which is akin to acknowledging an issue with herself... it's not going to happen.

Are you seeing a pattern in your attempts to co-parent like this? If so, it might mean that you two aren't ready yet for co-parenting, even the straight forward stuff. Many of us start with parallel parenting and then at some point there's a relative thaw, which isn't the same as it getting easier per se.

And just like that, I realized that whatever bond exists between D15 and her mom may be impenetrable, and that my best bet might be to play things with D15 slow and steady.  I'm not saying "that's it" - just that at this moment, it feels likely. I remain open to any and all possible outcomes...

What do you mean by slow and steady?

I was also reminded another small thing last summer:  I learned that uBPDxw asked D15 where shot the case for her airpods, D15 responded "Staples" rather than saying "Dad got them for me from Amazon" - I didn't quite understand why D15 felt the need to do this, except in the frame of enmeshment, it's clear that D15 cannot say or acknowledge anything even remotely positive about me to her mother.

That makes sense. Because doing so may make her mom complain about you, and regardless of how D15 feels, I would guess she doesn't want to listen to that. On some level, she must feel fury to be put in a situation that is beyond her role and years.

Of course the T remains MIA - probably cannot hear anything I might have to say with D15 screaming in one ear and uBPDxw screaming in the other.

Can you remind us what the last exchange was about and when it happened?

So, what stage of alienation, parentification, etc., is this?

 

I would wonder how much is about D15 in emotional pain over being a teen, plus the burden she carries for her mom's feelings around the divorce.

SS24 was the most enmeshed and alienated child of H's kids. He moved away with his mom at age 16 and in the last 4 years having lived with her (and her affair partner), he is almost vicious in how he talks about her. There are remnants of alienation that we find puzzling. For example, SS24 will say to me he can't be alone with his dad, and then H will say he's taking the dog for a walk does anyone want to join him, and even if I say no SS24 will chime in that he'd like to go, and off they go together. SS24 will tell me in one breath he's afraid of his dad and then next thing I know he's giving H a noogie and playfighting with him in the kitchen.

Alienation with SD29 ended much quicker because she went away to college and things looked very different once she was out of the house and making sense of things on her own. SD26 developed BPD traits but even so, I thought that loyalty bind was unbreakable. SD26 got her own therapist when she went away to college and that neutral third party seemed to put a lot of mom's behaviors in context.

Would you consider following up with D15 about the avoidant message? I would be curious how she felt and investigate if there is room to repair and recover. Teen angst might prevent her from demonstrating appreciation but a pattern of you being interested in her interior life might chip away at the armor she is starting to wear on a daily basis.

[EyesUp]

@LnL,

Thanks for this, and sorry I'm unable to parse a bunch of excerpts via mobile...

Appreciate the hope that enmeshment may be fluid. I recognize that to some extent, it can and likely will be fluid - like asphalt.  I'm sure that at some point - as you suggest - in college, after college, etc. - uBPDxw will insult D15 or D15's boyfriend - or commit some egregiously controlling behavior - that will nudge D15 toward reality. However that loyalty bind is not going to dissolve easily...

The message to uBPDxw was sent via text - I did not share it with D15.  It's possible that uBPDxw conveyed it, but that's speculative at this point.  We could speculate all day about whether it would be conveyed directly, conveyed with some distortion (usually the case) to weaponize, or simply internalized by uBPDxw as insulting to D15 and therefore also insulting to uBPDxw...

I very, very rarely attempt to communicate with uBPDxw this way.  I knew I was rolling the dice, but still somewhat amazed by how telling the response was in this instance.  Yes, I do see the pattern.  I'm still dealing with uBPDxw's insistence that D13 needs prozac (against the reco of D13's PsyD and T), among other clinical and not-so-clinical parenting topics.  uBPDxw wants control and remains furious that she does not have unilateral control / primary decision making...  she has discussed her feelings with D15, and cited my "poor judgement" and "poor parenting" and "narcissistic self-interest" as problematic for the wellbeing of D15 and her two younger sisters.  It's all documented.

Slow and steady simply means, continue to give D15 unconditional love, flexibility, space, and a very light touch on interest/attention/parenting.  Demonstrate that I can be trusted and make good decisions.  Demonstrate how to be an independent thinker.

D15's T - I believe that last touch point was in late Nov or early Dec ahead of the holidays.  I reached out to ask the T if she had any suggestions for how to best support D15 during the holiday break.  The T's feedback was basically "keep doing what you're doing." 

There has been zero outreach from the T, although D15 once stated that the T thinks that it was "creepy" that I checked in, that the T "is not your side" (i.e., not on my side), and that D15 only needs to follow the parenting plan until she's 17 (not exactly true in our state, but a custody battle for an 18yo is unlikely, so who knows what was said or what the intent was or how D15 processed it). Since I have not heard from the T on any of this, my intuition is that the T validates D15's feelings, more or less maintains the status quo, has no real therapeutic plan or process, and collects her fee.  I expect something like 3/4 of these statements is accurate...

In regard to follow with D15 - not sure there is a repair action needed, as I don't have any direct reason believe that uBPDxw shared the message.  I think D15 is equally avoidant with me, and perhaps also suffering because mom is away.  Last summer, D15 said "no child should have to go two weeks without seeing their mom" re: her feelings about spending two weeks with me during non-camp time.  Of course she's fine going two weeks without seeing her dad...  The point is:  As the enmeshment comes into focus, I think that one of D15's triggers this week, and reasons for not wanting to travel with me and her sisters, was about separation anxiety from mom...

The things I keep in mind:  Things are very good with D13 and D9.  Zero reluctance to travel with me / without D15, and generally super affectionate and happy to be together.  This has also helped to shed light on the unique situation with D15 (golden child with uBPDxw).

The thing I'm most apprehensive of is the corrosive effect of the situation with D15 spreading to her sisters...

The second thing that keeps me up at night is the complete lack of effective antibodies / tactics to combat what's happened/happening with D15, and the long-term consequences for D15's own sense of self, etc.   

[EyesUp]

uBPDDxw is ramping up conflict, and I'm feeling it.

I think I've probably oversold myself on the idea that I can be impervious, and remain on the high road, but let's face it:  Part of the reason I'm here is because I'm still trying to make sense of things, my role in things, and how to go forward.

I think part of the reason my X might be amped up is due to school vacation week and she's simply missing the kids.  But I also know there is more to it. After a period of a relative stability, things have been escalating for a while.

In addition to the recent email with many false or at least exaggerated/distorted accusations in which X noted that she's a mandatory reporter, there have been a series of messages with accusations that take things from zero to warp speed conflict.

e.g., over the weekend, D8 felt nauseous. While I was taking care of her in the bathroom, D15 called her mom.  Mom started calling and texting furiously.  OK, I get it - she's concerned about our kid.  Once I got D8 settled, I called X back and explained the situation:  D8 was nauseous but didn't actually throw up, I would keep an eye on D8 and keep X posted. 

Then, apparently, D15 asked D8 if she threw up, D8 said yes.  To be 100% clear, D8 heaved but didn't actually vomit.  D15 relayed this X, who then emailed me to accuse me of lying.  Meanwhile, D8 is fine - went right to bed, woke up the next day and had breakfast, no symptoms, no issues. 

So I've got strong triangulation going on - a coalition between D15 and X, now engaging D8.  I have to confess, even after all the reading and exercises, in the moment, I have no clue what to do next.  Ignore?  Polite acknowledgement/validation of concerns while stating facts?  Document, again, and move on?

Example two, X asked me to help bring D13 to school after a doctor's appointment tomorrow.  I said, sure, I'll plan to meet you at the doctor's office.  X writes back "I find it astonishing that during our marriage, you would leave three babies alone with me for weeks at a time...but now you don't trust me to go to a routine doctor appointment with our pediatrician of 16 years.  It must be tough to be so bitter and paranoid."

First, D15 is... 15.  That's exaggeration #1.
Next, I never traveled more than 20% of the time, ever.  This was always a sore spot, but she never fails to overstate it.  I also participated in most pediatrician appointments because X was always burdened by it, anxious about it, etc.  I know this pediatrician well.  In X's mind, she's the primary parent and I have no reason to be there, so in the revised history, I was never there...
Finally - insults, disparagement - and, well, accusations are confessions.

So this sets up another conflict-y encounter with X in the presence of D13.  I could sit this one out, but I don't trust X to accurately report D13's symptoms (she talks over D13, doesn't allow D13 to speak for herself, always has an agenda - in short, X just wants the doctor to prescribe whatever she's already decided is best for D13).  This time, it's pretty basic:  We need to see the primary care doctor to get a referral to an allergy specialist for some seemingly idiopathic episodes of rashes.  But whatever X says that gets entered into the record may or may not be helpful - maybe I am paranoid!

It's almost impossible to determine how to proceed.  Go to the appointment?  Don't go?  Help with driving D13 to school so X can get to work faster, or don't help?

Rationally, I have every right to be at this appointment, it's no problem to help get D13 to school - which also happens to be a courtesy to X.  But doing any combination of these things will almost certainly invite some further escalation who perceives a loss of control due to my presence - even when she asked for help in the first place.

Also, D15 declared that she will never speak to me again after she turns 16.  Not sure how she established this date.  Age of emancipation is 18 in my state.  D15's T hasn't communicated at all since late last year.

I feel like I need a coach, because I don't have the bandwidth for all the chaos.  And I really need to find a way to help my kids not get sucked (further) in.

Thanks for following along...

[livednlearned]

EyesUp, can you remind us how long you two have been co-parenting?

I had one kid so can only imagine what it's like to have D15 running interference and fanning conflict. Did you sense how D8 felt about what mom and D15 were saying?

Your ex's enmeshment with D15 is probably dependent to some extent on you being the bad guy. They need you to stabilize their relationship. If you do everything perfectly, they'll need to find a mistake, even if it means inventing one.  

Meanwhile, mom-D15 enmeshment has to be quite painful for D15, something she may not realize until she can't blame you for all her problems.

It's always hard to offer advice because our situations are so specific and complex. My take, for what it's worth, is that you two don't seem ready to co-parent in a joint doctor visit. The more contact there is, the more conflict there is. Mom needs this conflict to regulate her emotions, and to stabilize her relationship with D15 (triangulation).

If you're concerned about perception (alienation forces) with the kids, what do you think of this: "hey, I'm going to follow up with the pediatrician after the visit so I can be involved in your care, but I'm going to let mom take you, ok? I'll be there to take you to school."

This says, "My gift to you is being a leader by minimizing conflict, for you. I do this by making sure you know I'm involved, and I'm making decisions that are best for everyone, especially you. And I don't make you feel bad about the thing I'm not saying, which is that your mom struggles to manage her emotions and we all pay." Or whatever subtext makes sense.

As for your medical/legal concerns, your ex can't make medical decisions without your consent, correct?

D15 saying she would never talk to you after she turned 16 ... any thoughts on what prompted that? How did you respond?

Do you have a mindfulness practice? Even if it's a few minutes so you can give your nervous system a chance to reset?

Unrelated but maybe not ... I'm doing something a bit radical with my son (22) who is autistic/ADHD. I've been walking around with a tremendous amount of anxiety about him and it occurred to me that he's responding to that in ways I'm only being to understand. Meaning, my anxiety about him is part of the problem.

About 6 months ago I decided to make changes. Some are specific to our relationship and situation, but most are about choosing to embody curiosity and calm, and most importantly confidence that he's going to be ok. I'll never know the extent to which this has had an impact on him, but in the last 2 months he's changed in ways I never thought possible. It's almost like my demeanor needed to change for our relationship to change for him to change.

The best way to describe it is that I demonstrate love in all the normal ways, but I also kind of ... ignore him. My hunch is that this small shift meant he had to experience the anxiety instead of me.

Does that make sense?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[EyesUp]

@LnL,

Decree absolute was issued just over 2 years ago.  We separated 6 months prior to that, so about 2.5 years of co-parenting in the context of the divorce.

The doctor's appointment is for D13.  There are a few issues in play with D13:
- X tried to unilaterally enroll her at the school where X teaches. She went so far as to take D13 (then D11) to interview at the school against my wishes, and to have her atty send me a nastygram, which I ignored.  I thought this was in the past, but it came up again this past fall when X commented on me needing to control everything, although she acknowledged that it's too late to revisit for D13 because the school only goes through grade 8, D13 is in 7th grade and transitioning for one year doesn't make sense - even to my X. 
- D13 has an idiopathic allergy that seems to occur more frequently at my house.  I expect that X will attempt to weaponize this as "dad's house is dirty/dusty" etc. with passive comments to the doctor in front of D13.  I feel it's important to be present at this meeting, which is really just to get the referral to the allergist.
- D13 has an ADHD diagnosis.  She gets mostly As and Bs and one C in math. Has good friendships.  Occasionally acts like a 13yo. Last summer, X decided that D13 urgently needed a change in her methylphenidate dosage. I said, ok, let's check with her PsyD.  It took months, but eventually the PsyD said no change and X let it go. The entire time, X berated me for not acting in D13's best interest and interfering with meds.  Now, X insists that D13 should be on prozac. Again, minimal behavior issues.  Again, I said let's follow the PsyD's advice.  PsyD says not presently indicated, but will prescribe a baby dose, like 5mg, if the parents agree. I didn't immediately agree, and suggested that we revisit in a few months. Again, X insists I'm interfering with D13's care and not acting in her best interests.

So, all these things are contributing to X's amped up behavior because she doesn't get to unilaterally call all the shots.  Yet I'm somewhat disinclined not to be present and take action as needed where health is concerned. 

And X is hypochondriac, a frequent flyer in ERs for many conditions which go undiagnosed, and while I may be paranoid, I don't think it's entirely out of the question to get in a munchausen syndrome by proxy situation in which X attempts to over-treat any of the kids for whatever she feels or experiences.  Or to withhold treatment for whatever she hopes to avoid, e.g., D15's (not D13) anxiety is diagnosed but largely untreated - I think because she's the golden child, and X doesn't want to consider her own experience with anxiety, or likely contribution to D15's anxiety.

I like your idea re: message to D13 - I've actually done it. 

The problem is:  It conveys to D13 that mom is the boss, that I'm backup, and it give X free reign to disparage me to the care providers when I'm not present - which then complicates post appointment follow up.  I get the "you have access to the portal" type messages - the providers simply don't have time to schedule two reviews for a patient.  I feel like I need to be present so that X doesn't steam roll D13 into whatever it is that X feels. 

You are right that this is triggering for X, but I don't see an affective way to manage if I'm not present, and I spent 25 years accommodating this crazy - the stakes are much higher now that the kids are getting older, and X's dictating care to the providers.

D15 - turning 16 - no clue.  I've actually heard a couple of different versions of this, one time it was 17.  I speculate that as she's attempting to assert her independence, she's learning about how and when different places allow kids to make their own decisions about parenting time.  Emancipation is 18 in our state, but judges will often listen to a 16yo.  I'm not sure exactly what she's read or heard, but I would not be surprised if X has told her that I'm less likely to fight for parenting time after this point, and that a judge is less likely to support me, etc., as this is exactly the sort of thing that X has been saying to D15, i.e., discussing legal strategy during the divorce. 

I appreciate your point about your son. I will say that D15's behavior has had a chilling effect on the mood in the house when the kids are here. It's hard to be upbeat when D15 is stoking conflict. I already give her maximum space.  She has a large room to herself, and when she's baking or watching TV I tend to give a wide berth - I don't force discussions.

That said, she is definitely triangulating with X.

Yes, I have a mindfulness practice - but it's always a good reminder to practice more... thanks.

[EyesUp]

Got through the doctor appointment today.  Glad I went, as I was able to offer a few notes about what's going on with D13 that probably would have been otherwise overlooked or mischaracterized.

Predictably, on the way out, X made a point of starting a conflict in front of D13.

[EyesUp]

Seeking some feedback on the following situation:  I reached out to D15's at the end of Feb:

"Hello D15 T,

Communication with D15 is increasingly fraught. 

I'd really appreciate any suggestions you might have re: how I can best support D15, and to reestablish trust.  e.g., D15 recently stated that she doesn't plan to speak with me or have anything to do with me after she turns 16.  I'm not sure where that number comes from.  I'm not sure how to respond to statements like this.

Would it make sense to connect directly?

Please let me know your thoughts.

EyesUp"

D15's T responded:

Sorry to hear things are so difficult.  I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know but obviously it would be best if she felt comfortable enough to articulate some of her feelings.  When people shut down it’s usually because they feel threatened by their own feelings or something else, that they won’t be heard, or that the situation is hopeless/beyond repair.  Frequently when people can communicate and feel listened to things can improve/be repaired in some way.  Conflict with authority at her age is not uncommon due to the fight for autonomy and usually dissipated as people mature.  I’ll try to talk with her next Monday and see what might be possible to support whatever feelings she is having, more communication, and any potential healing.


I decided to take a chance while T was somewhat responsive and replied as follows:

"A few notes, mainly FYI.

D15 has frequently cited the fact that I viewed her phone without her consent as her primary concern and violation of trust.  In doing so, D15 ignores the fact that we have (had) a device agreement, that her mom also viewed her phone, or that many parents - including her friends parents - also do this for safety reasons. 

What should have been a "normal" review and repair discussion has snowballed into something much larger, in which D15 states that I'm "psychotic" for viewing her phone.

I believe the thing that particularly bothered D15 about this was the fact that I viewed messages between her and her mom that were disparaging toward me - which dramatically amplified a loyalty bind with her mom.  I've never directly addressed this with my ex wife because, frankly, I don't know how to do it in a productive way. 

I did consult one of the top GALs, who reviewed the communication, and indicated that the persistent pattern was one of the clearest cases she'd seen.  I've not reviewed D15's phone since last July, but I fully expect that the pattern of disparagement has continued.

Moving forward: I've proposed to D15 on a number of occasions that we discuss her phone, and indicated both verbally and in writing, that she will need to fully manage her own device soon, and that I'd like to begin to give her access to passwords, etc.  She has not taken me up on this offer.

Last weekend, D15 asked for help with transferring some photos on to her phone.  In the course of helping her with this request, I pointed out that she already has access to passwords on the phone, and has for some time.  I wanted her to see that I have already provided some trust in her.

My hope is that this will, in some way, help restore trust on her side as well.

However, I remain concerned that effort on my part cannot really help while active disparagement continues on the other side.  If you know of any resources for parents in my situation - books, etc. - I would welcome your input.

Thanks again"

Following this, there has been zero follow up from D15's T.  However, today I received the following text message from D15 - who is presently at her mom's house and is scheduled to transition to my house tomorrow:

please stop emailing my T. it is an invasion of privacy and it is weird. if there was a serious concern about my privacy it would make sense but there is none so you are interfering with my relationship with her and i do not feel comfortable with it. please stop.


I don't want to speculate too much, however the T hasn't really engaged with me in a substantive way.  In parallel, D15's rejection of me has, if anything, increased.

For reference, I found and retained the T with uBPDxw's agreement.  I've not asked the T to report on the details of her dialog with D15, or even to share anything like a diagnosis or treatment plan... only what I've shared above:  some anecdotes about what's happening at home and a request for input on how to best support my daughter.  Thus far, I've received no real response to that question.  However, I did receive an email from uBPDxw that accused me of attempting to manipulate the T...

So my questions are:
- how to respond to D15
- how or if to engage the T
- how or if to engage uBPDxw
- more generally, anything else to consider - above and beyond "be a good dad" and "encourage independent thinking" and "demonstrate trust and give her space" etc.

I am cognizant of a long road ahead with this, but also wary of inaction, and also super wary of D15 (and uBPDxw) influencing D15's younger sisters...

[EyesUp]

I heard from D15's T today:

I just wanted to follow up. It sounds like the steps you described are the right direction to be taking.  Let me know if you want to touch base in the next few weeks.  I am just in the process of clarifying the schedule for next week.  In terms of books, if you enter the term parental alienation in the search bar on Amazon, several books come up.  It might be best to look at those and see which book/books might resonate for you.  I think Understanding Parental Alienation by Stines and Harriman is pretty good.


So many ideas come flooding in...

- I had concluded that the T wasn't going to engage further with me, so this was unexpected
- Amazingly, T appears to support to the idea that D15 is alienated - without explicitly saying so

At this point, there has been no response to some fairly direct questions, no engagement re: treatment plan or approach, and zero proactive communication.

Instead, I get very, very slow follow up - with a bit of validation.

I have to wonder if that's this T's MO:  Just validate everyone's feelings... the patient's, the parent's... 

"Go to Amazon and search" is about the lowest of low value responses, only slightly redeemed by the specific reco for Stines and Harriman (which I actually have not read). 

This is not the way prior Ts have worked, and I'm not sure how hard to push.

I appreciate that she left the door open to connect, although D15 also explicitly told me to respect her privacy and not to email her T - and so I'm apprehensive of taking up the T on the chance to connect, as she obviously reports that I've emailed to D15 - but reports nothing to me.

What am I missing here?   Is this very late response from the T cause for encouragement or alarm?  I mean, surely, any T that actually thinks there's alienation in play would propose some deeper dialog, and sooner rather than later - right?

[livednlearned]

I hesitate to reply because I'm not sure the extent to which I'm projecting my own fears or worries or soothing self-talk.

H and I re-watched Saving Private Ryan and the grisly battle scenes remind me in ways of parental alienation. Advice in one scenario wouldn't work in another. The details matter.

In one scene a medic is wounded and the men are trying to help him the best they can. Captain Miller asks him what they should do.

I feel that way with you. Not that this is a fatal situation but as a parent who has a vulnerable kid and survived unsuccessful attempts at parental alienation, and who has seen varying degrees of it with my step-kids with one being in the severe end of the scale: What is helping?

I'll do my best in responding knowing that you are the one who holds the most knowledge -- you know the people involved, the relationships that pre-dated the intensity of this alienation campaign.

What I will say is this: your daughter's T has sized up the dynamic and she's telling you she's on it. What is challenging is that she's offering you a book to read  . You want 10 units of blood stat and sanitized surgical instruments and sterile bandages and pain meds to prevent the body from going into shock.

What you want -- what I would want -- is action, a plan. Expertise coming from the T about how she plans to proceed. She's obviously trying to build trust with D15 and without that, none of this matters. I also sense T is aware of ethical boundaries. At the same time, she's trying to tell you that she understands what's happening. You've probably successfully represented yourself as a loving, concerned, reasonable, normal-range parent and that defies D15's irrational and probably unsubstantiated cause for pushing you away. Even kids who have a parent who beats them will demonstrate a desire to have a relationship with that parent. Something is wrong and the T seems to be tracking that.

I would get the book and read it and be patient. This is probably going to be a long process that will depend on the growing bond between D15 and T.

You want D15 back now and have these adolescent years with her. I cannot express to you how much I understand.

My son got sick when he was 16 and had three surgeries followed by healing and never-ending visits to wound clinics that lasted almost 4 years. Those wounds were physical. Alienation wounds are harder to see but in many ways they're just as debilitating.

We're 6 years from that experience and still picking up the pieces. S22 will probably be sorting through this stuff the rest of his life.

All of this is to say that I would take the T's message as cause for serious relief and maybe celebration if you can summon just a little levity while this crushing situation plays out. D15's T could've bought into the baloney and she didn't. That's a scenario that is all but impossible to come back from.

It's a silver lining is how I would take it. Once you have an opportunity to connect with T, maybe there will be a collaboration between the two of you to figure out next steps, like working with someone more skilled. It's hard to say and I may be missing the full picture but at a minimum this seems to be a very positive sign.

[EyesUp]

@LnL, thanks for that last reply.  For now, I'll say:  I recognize that this is a long game, and I'm not seeking immediate relief.  I am, however, struggling to identify the right proactive measures - to get out of the constant mode of reactivity.  I understand that the best way to change the dynamic is to do just that - so as long as I remain in reactive mode, a large portion of the dynamic is likely to remain the same, even if I attempt to reframe or redirect or ignore...

Not sure why it often feels easier to reply to others than to address myself - but that's been a great thought experiment for me:  How would I advise someone else to act if they were describing my circumstances.  It's a bit of a blind spot.

All that said, an interesting development today that will almost certainly escalate things with my uBPDxw...

My X has been pushing for D13 (not D15) to take prozac.  It took a while, but we finally found a psychiatrist accepting new patients late last year and completed intake.  Today was the first follow up appt, and my X's agenda was:  start prozac. 

Why?  X states that D13 has acute anxiety.

I don't see it. D13 has ADHD combined with normal 13yo girl behaviors.

Long story short, I was sort of dreading the appt because I expected that my kid was about to get prescribed an SSRI without a clear need or a holistic treatment plan.

Instead...

The doctor told my wife, your daughter: 
- does not present risk of self harm or overt depression or esteem issues
- could benefit from more programmatic therapy - possibly DBT - to develop some coping skills, which fits with her ADHD executive functioning issues anyway
- is not you, and we need to assess her individually - rather than treat her based on what's worked for you in the past

My X was barely keeping it together. Her hands were balled into fists. She stood up and collected her bag at one point, but did not take a step toward the door. She was near tears. But the doctor held firm and proposed a course of action... which we will follow up on.

I have to admit that I was almost glad to see my X behave this way with the doctor, it's immature but there have been so few instances in which someone else sees what I see when X doesn't immediately get her way.

I pushed hard for the doctor to speak with D13's T in advance - after months, they finally connected yesterday.  The T also states that prozac is not indicated.

I also privately sent the doctor a screenshot of D13's latest report card (mostly Bs) anticipating that X would exaggerate... sure enough, at one point X stated "she's failing at school".  Again, showing the doctor who is reliable - or not.

X also offered to have the doctor speak with D15 (inappropriate - and another smoking gun re: how X engages D15...) and also with her fiance.  Not sure how I feel about that...

Ahead of the meeting, I had a short call with X to try to pre-align. I stated that I'm open to SSRIs if the doctor says it's necessary.  Instead of saying, "ok, good" X offered the following:  "you don't see these acute anxiety episodes because I'm the safe parent, so D13 only shares her concerns and behaves this way with me"

While X didn't say this to the doctor (at least, not in front of me), the doctor asked directly:  is it possible that this is a way that D13, middle kid, is getting more attention from mom?  perhaps not consciously?

Mom didn't even hear the question. Too angry.

Amazing.

The whole thing reminded how critical yet difficult and fragile parenting can be - under any circumstances. I'm at once encouraged that I can occasionally, with a bit of anticipation and luck, execute at least part of a game plan. Not sure how this will play out - I expect some retribution from uBPDxw for what she surely perceives as a loss. And the thing that still kills me is: It still hurts to see her in pain. She says that she's worried about our kid (me too!) and she was incredulous that the doctor would not prescribe the drug that X had preselected for a diagnosis that she predetermined. She actually said "failing to take action now is negligent" so I'm concerned she might try to sabotage the doctor and start over... ugh.

On the other hand, bringing this back to D15 - It's even more complicated...   I haven't followed up with D15's T yet - although I just finished the book recommendation, so that's next...

[Ourworld]

Hi,
My child was an honor student until she became 15, we got along, and she was reserved. We moved back to Texas and suddenly her behavior became erratic, she threw herself at the boys and she argued incessantly with me in the car over nothing.
Her grades fell from a 3.75 GPA to a 2.8 GPA!
I thought these things were due to her age and a different school system, but I now realize this BPD stuff was beginning.
Once she left for college at age 17 (her birthday is October 3rd), she had horrible back-to-back traumas immediately, the first was being date-raped

My daughters father totally abandoned us when he called me to say he was not coming home, then died in a car accident 3 years later, I did not even tell her he died because I did not think she cared, but I can see now that it did matter to her!

If you see any of these signs; erratic, sexual, and uncontrolled behavior and a drop in her grades, take heed and get her into counseling.
I wish I had.

I wish you the best!

[EyesUp]

@ourworld - thanks for your words.  D15 and D13 do have individual therapists.

[EyesUp]

General update:

I spoke with D15's T for the first time in a few months.

One of her comments was: D15 is very angry.  Any change needs to come from her. 

I know all of these cases are individual and there is no single way to counteract a loyalty-bind, enmeshment, or other unhealthy attachment dynamic that may contribute to alienation... However it's interesting to me that in all of the literature on this topic - from generalists, to clinical psychologists, to legal professionals, there are scant suggestions about what to do - other than to seek help from professionals - and what to avoid (don't take it personally, don't yell at or punish your kid, don't attempt to engage the alienator's network, etc.).

It's like the alienation industrial complex is a bit like mafia protection - pay us, we'll help you.

Even BPD has slightly more prescriptive options for interaction and potential treatment - CBT/DBT, etc.

The experts who publish on this topic do a great job of describing the dynamics, and even explaining how it happens - the motivations and tactics of alienators are well understood.  But they stop short of explaining any antidote or countermeasure.

I'm really missing my kids this week, as they are with their mom for April vacation. I'd like to somehow put this time to use to focus and somehow make a plan. Taking the high road ain't cutting it, and I'm not ready to accept that my kids need to find their own way through this damage over the next 10-20 years.