From BPD mom to BPD husband

[Gerda]

Looks like I haven't posted to this board since 2015. I mostly posted about my mom who probably has BPD. Posted about the drama she caused around my wedding.

Well now here I am all these years later about 95% sure I need to divorce my husband who probably also has BPD. I hope this is the right forum to post in.

We started dating in 2008, got married in 2012, had a child in 2019.

We had lots of trouble conceiving. Trying for 4 or 5 years, had a miscarriage, got my child through IVF, then another miscarriage. Decided to give up and be happy with my only child.

After going through all that together, thinking it would bring us closer together, after our daughter was born, things changed. He started getting really verbally and emotionally abusive. Started when I was on maternity leave with the newborn baby. At first I thought it was the stress of being a new father. Then the Covid-19 pandemic happened when our daughter was 5 months old, so I attributed it to that. But it never really got better. He gets into horrible rages and screams at me pretty much every weekend.

I mostly do all the childcare and housework with very little help from him (despite having my own full time job). In July of 2022, I broke my ankle and was disabled for a few weeks, so he had to take over for me, and it's like he almost had a nervous breakdown. Even though he was constantly complaining about how I don't pull my weight around here. He obviously couldn't handle being the Mama himself! It reached a climax when during an argument about how he buys our daughter too many toys (seriously, he was buying her a new stuffy like once a week), he threatened to punch me in the face. This was while I was still hobbling around on crutches and our then two year old daughter was right there.

And unfortunately it wasn't the first time he's threatened to punch me, though he's never actually done it... yet.

I got into individual therapy this past June, and my therapist says he probably has BPD. I told her about how my mom probably has BPD too, and she said that explains why I might have not seen some red flags before. Maybe I learned from my mom that certain behaviors are normal, so I didn't think it was a problem when my husband showed similar behaviors.

Has anyone else experienced this before? Going from having a BPD parent to a BPD significant other? It feels like I got out of the frying pan and into the fryer. I thought once I healed from my relationship with my mom I would be done with dealing with personality disordered people!

Also, my therapist said it's common for personality disorders to become more severe after a big life event like having a child. Before our child, he got into rages, but only once every couple of months, and they were usually him venting to me about something or someone else that pissed him off, not about how much he hates *my* guts. Though in hindsight I now know he was subtly verbally abusive to me even before we had our baby. However, it was nothing near getting into a rage and actually threatening to punch me. (And he shows absolutely NO remorse about any of it!)

Has anyone else had that happen to them too? That their SO got much worse after having a child?

I feel stupid for not realizing how messed up he was before I had a kid with him. I really had no idea this would happen, that bringing this wonderful miracle baby into the world would turn my previously wonderful and sweet husband into a raging maniac.

So now I'm trying to work up the courage to divorce him. What a nightmare!

[Turkish]

Firstly, do you have a safety plan? His insinuations of being violent are worrying and I'm glad that you're taking them seriously. What does your therapist say other than he probably has BPD?

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf

Secondly, speaking as a man and a father, that sounds weak, but then I'm not BPD, having difficulty with emotional regulation and self- image. Though I increasingly resented her, I increasingly took care of our 0-1 and 3 year old children as my ex slowly checked out of the r/s over the better part of a year. Absent her and my resentments, it wasn't that difficult. The last few months she barely phoned it in as a parent.

In the 3rd or 4th year after dissolution, my mom was living with me and the kids over the winter. My mom, apropos of nothing, told me that she early on thought that my ex had BPD and then admitted to me that she had BPD herself.

Mind. Blown.

Yet only a little as I'd already determined that after coming here I had known about her depression since I was 17. She also told me during her BPD reveal that she had been treated for PTSD since the early 80s  (or late 70s?) When I was a child. Suddenly, my whole wacky childhood made sense.

That aside, I'm concerned for your safety. Does anyone else in your life know?

[livednlearned]

Yes and yes, and I'm so sorry you had to find your way back here, yet glad you have a place to turn to. People here can relate.

For me, though, it's not a parent. I suspect uBPD in my sibling. A therapist said to me once that sibling violence doesn't occur in homes with functional parents and there does seem to be something narcissistic about my parents, in different ways. Everything was about them and our home was not physically, emotionally, or psychologically safe.

I moved far away from my family and emigrated to another country only to marry a combination of my brother and father all rolled into n/BPDx. I don't think it's uncommon to do this when you were raised to think certain behaviors were normal.

n/BPDx got much worse after our child was born. pwBPD don't handle stress well and having a newborn then toddler can be stressful. My son (now 22) said recently he never felt a bond with his dad. n/BPDx was either not present (physically or emotionally) or was angry about something.

I also resonate with what you went through after your injury. I had surgery that left me bedridden and it was like n/BPDx regressed to become a toddler. At the time my son was 8 or so and was more helpful and kinder, and less volatile.

Like Turkish said (and others said to me about threats of physical violence) it's good to have a safety plan just in case. My ex seemed to sense there was a line he could not cross but even coming close to that line was unnerving (throwing pillows, trying to push me out the door, locking the door when I was outside, hiding my purse and phone, throwing our pet, punching walls, turning lights on while I tried to sleep, etc.) The purpose was to intimidate me, and it worked.

Do you have a support network? It's great you have a T. Sometimes people like us get isolated from our friends and family. Hopefully you have trusted people in your corner in case you need them. For me it was co-workers who were aware something was wrong.

[ForeverDad]

... after our daughter was born, things changed. He started getting really verbally and emotionally abusive. Started when I was on maternity leave with the newborn baby. At first I thought it was the stress of being a new father. Then the Covid-19 pandemic happened when our daughter was 5 months old, so I attributed it to that. But it never really got better. He gets into horrible rages and screams at me pretty much every weekend.

Also, my therapist said it's common for personality disorders to become more severe after a big life event like having a child... (And he shows absolutely NO remorse about any of it!)

Has anyone else had that happen to them too? That their SO got much worse after having a child?

I feel stupid for not realizing how messed up he was before I had a kid with him. I really had no idea this would happen, that bringing this wonderful miracle baby into the world would turn my previously wonderful and sweet husband into a raging maniac.

This has happened to many of us.  We weren't trained to be psychologists or therapists.  I've come to conclude that there could be various reasons.  One is that you're in a vastly more obligated relationship now that you share a child.  After all, you can't undo a child.  He may sense you're stuck with him and he can "let go" his emotions more freely.

Another possible trigger is that adding a child into the relationship upset the relationship mix.  Whatever the "cause", the result is discord and often increasing conflict, almost as though the other spouse is try to test how far you can be pushed.

And unfortunately it wasn't the first time he's threatened to punch me, though he's never actually done it... yet.

So now I'm trying to work up the courage to divorce him.

A truism I came across...  If it has been threatened, or even just contemplated, it will happen, given enough time.  Once you determine what your future path ought to be, then don't wait for the perfect opportunity to exit.  Most of us never managed to maneuver perfect exits.

Lastly, it is not your fault.  Likely you never could have done anything to avoid this dysfunction.  Your spouse is essentially actively sabotaging anything you do to deescalate the problems.  You can't fix your spouse, one aspect of BPD-like behaviors is that the worst behavior is for those closest to them and they can't really listen because there's just too much emotional baggage in the way.

There is one way things can get better... meaningful therapy diligently applied in one's life over extended time, years not just months.  The downside is that many with BPD-like traits have extreme patterns of Blaming, Blame Shifting and Denial.

[Gerda]

Firstly, do you have a safety plan? His insinuations of being violent are worrying and I'm glad that you're taking them seriously. What does your therapist say other than he probably has BPD?

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf

Secondly, speaking as a man and a father, that sounds weak, but then I'm not BPD, having difficulty with emotional regulation and self- image. Though I increasingly resented her, I increasingly took care of our 0-1 and 3 year old children as my ex slowly checked out of the r/s over the better part of a year. Absent her and my resentments, it wasn't that difficult. The last few months she barely phoned it in as a parent.


That aside, I'm concerned for your safety. Does anyone else in your life know?

Thanks for your concern. I really should make a formal safety plan. A few of my friends know, but they live inconveniently far away to be much direct help (like I probably wouldn't be able to stay with them for any length of time because I'd be too far from work and my child's preschool). My husband insists that he would never *actually* hit me, and I'm taking his threats way too seriously, but... why should I believe that?

A small correction to my original post... the time he threatened to punch me when I had my broken ankle was the first time he threatened me like that. He's done it again since then.

My therapist recommended I read "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft, even though that book is mainly about abusive men who don't have personality disorders. Though after reading the book I'm not sure what exactly the distinction is, or if there is a distinction, if it really matters in the end.

As for parenting our daughter, he just keeps insisting that parenting is the mom's job. He'll play with her when he feels like it, and spoils her by buying her too many toys all the time, but he won't cook her dinner, feed her, bathe her, dress her, put her to bed, take her to the doctor, etc. You know, all the non-fun parenting work. He got extremely stressed out when I broke my ankle and he had to do all that stuff. He even acted sometimes like I injured myself on purpose, or at least that I was really stupid/reckless/clumsy to do something, like he was trying to figure out some way to be angry at me for getting hurt.

And yet, in fights he's said if I divorce him, he will lawyer up and pay whatever it takes to get full custody of our daughter "to protect her," because he acts like I'm this incompetent, neglectful parent.

So I know I'm in for a custody battle, which is daunting.

[Cat Familiar]

I’m so sorry that the *wonderful* man you thought you married turned into someone ill-equipped for fatherhood responsibilities.

I have similar experiences, but without a child. Though I had been casual friends with my husband for years prior to marriage since he was part of a large group of people I’d known since college, I was surprised to discover that he was quite different than the person I thought he was, once we got married.

Not only did I have a BPD mother, my first husband was BPD/NPD/ASPD. I did therapy after I divorced him, vowing to never make the mistake of getting involved with someone with a personality disorder again.

And here I am, posting here for almost 10 years, married to another BPD spouse! But at this point we basically get along OK, however it is a *special needs* relationship. So please don’t feel like you are the only one who has jumped from the frying pan to the fire!

[Gerda]

Another possible trigger is that adding a child into the relationship upset the relationship mix.  Whatever the "cause", the result is discord and often increasing conflict, almost as though the other spouse is try to test how far you can be pushed.

This is something my therapist has mentioned. Before we had our daughter, I was his "favorite person," and he was the most important person in my life, and so he felt more secure in the relationship.

After giving birth, suddenly I have this incredibly needy person who takes up all of my time (especially without much parenting support from him, but I also don't have a lot of family or friends around to help out), so that took my attention off him.

My therapist says he probably sees our daughter as both an extension of himself (which explains when he buys her lots of toys and accuses me of being "too hard on her" whenever I discipline her, etc.), but also he sees her as a rival for my attention. And since she's still so young and cute, he takes that resentment out on me.

Having a kid is hard on any marriage, but it took me a while to find out that it's not usually THIS hard, and that's because my husband isn't mentally strong or healthy.

[livednlearned]

My therapist recommended I read "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft, even though that book is mainly about abusive men who don't have personality disorders. Though after reading the book I'm not sure what exactly the distinction is, or if there is a distinction, if it really matters in the end.

That book was recommended to me, too. I think what is most helpful about the book is clearing up the confusion that many abused women feel about whose fault something is and why nothing works to fix things.

A lot of us were raised to think we caused the problem therefore we were expected to fix it. Bancroft's book focuses on men as abusers, what they're doing and why. Having a BPD mom probably makes it easier for you to see that abusive behavior can come from other family members regardless of gender.

So I know I'm in for a custody battle, which is daunting.

If he's anything like my ex he probably says more than he'll ever do.

My ex was fighting for more time in court and at the very same time messaging me to give away days. At that point, he had 4 hours on Saturday and 4 hours on Sunday, yet would have something come up on the weekend. Sometimes it was legitimate, like travel to a conference. But mostly it was playing music or else something he chose not to share.

Read Splitting by Bill Eddy -- it's a good book just to get a general sense of how PDs and family law mixes.

If you feel you're up to it, I think it's a form of good insurance to just consult with a few lawyers to understand how things work where you live. A lot of us have imprecise and sometimes flat-out wrong ideas about how things work and at a minimum, you can reduce anxiety knowing that our disordered spouses are making empty threats. It can also be helpful to document things, if only to help you remember what happened and when.

I kept a hidden Google calendar where I entered incidents, appointments, observations as events. Then, when it came time to sitting with my lawyer, I printed it out in agenda view and everything was in chronological order. It helped me feel confident about what happened when, how often it happened, what else was going on, etc.

[Gerda]

A lot of us were raised to think we caused the problem therefore we were expected to fix it. Bancroft's book focuses on men as abusers, what they're doing and why. Having a BPD mom probably makes it easier for you to see that abusive behavior can come from other family members regardless of gender.
...

If he's anything like my ex he probably says more than he'll ever do.

...

Read Splitting by Bill Eddy -- it's a good book just to get a general sense of how PDs and family law mixes.

If you feel you're up to it, I think it's a form of good insurance to just consult with a few lawyers to understand how things work where you live. A lot of us have imprecise and sometimes flat-out wrong ideas about how things work and at a minimum, you can reduce anxiety knowing that our disordered spouses are making empty threats. It can also be helpful to document things, if only to help you remember what happened and when.

I think the Bancroft book was useful seeing how abuse works when it's a man abusing a woman in a heterosexual relationship. Years ago I read other books about the kind of abuse moms with personality disorders do to their children, and looking back I might have been so focused on that I missed some red flags about my husband because his behavior with me didn't look quite the same as my mom's.

I hope some of his threats are just empty threats. It would be crazy for him to get sole custody of our daughter when I already do 90% of the parenting responsibilities. My therapist and friends thinks there's no way that would happen, but it's still such a scary idea that I worry about it. I know my next step is to consult with some lawyers. I plan on doing that after the holidays are over.

[Tangled mangled]

Your text:


My husband insists that he would never *actually* hit me, and I'm taking his threats way too seriously, but... why should I believe that?
@Gerda,
Just want to add my voice to this.

As survivor with narc/bpd parents, I too married a man that I believe has BPD. I think he has a combination of what my parents have and doubled up with darkness. My stbxh too promised he will never hit me and that his threats weren’t to be taken seriously.

Well, I’m here to say , a threat is a threat and if nothing is done about it- ie no action on your part in terms of consequences, it will escalate. My ex was never physically abusive, although there was always a lot of shouting and raging arguments. I but in the end he tried to choke me following an argument and denied it. The incident was witnessed by our son and the police got involved but he wasn’t charged. He’s a good actor and when the cops show up he cries like he’s the victim.
Keep your plans secret, and stay safe. Consult with lawyers. Don’t expect that you will have an adult- to adult dissolution of the relationship. As you start planning/ withdrawing from the relationship expect him to pretend to change or there maybe be pushback.

I have to move hundreds of miles away from mine with our children but lived together for months after the assault. It’s not advisable.
From here on, if you have decided to end the relationship, you do everything for yourself and your daughter and your needs come first.
Take care.

[PeteWitsend]

...

So I know I'm in for a custody battle, which is daunting.

One bit of advice: YES, you may be in for a custody battle, but do not let that, or the fear of conflict cause you to give in to him, or give up or not fight for what you and your daughter need.

PWBPD love to make threats, but they also don't always follow through on those threats, especially when: 1) following through requires them to do actual work, or 2) following through costs them money.

And his threats to go scorched earth and take your daughter from you would be very time consuming for him, as well as financially draining.

You need to get primary custody, and primary rights to choose things like your daughter's school, place of residence, healthcare, etc.  Do not let fear of conflict lead you to concede parental rights to him, or compromise.

remember: all the rights he has, he can use to perpetuate conflict using your daughter as a pawn.

In my case, my ex-wife was able to take our daughter and move to a very rural and crappy school district (but still within our county) which made it very burdensome for me to continue to see her.  This happened at the same time she was telling my Daughter that I "abandoned" her and never wanted to be a father. 

If I had fought to ensure I had 50/50 custody, or at least equal say in education decisions, this wouldn't have happened.  But everyone told me that "courts usually side with mothers when kids are young" and my own fears of a drawn out divorce led me to walk away thinking it was better not to fight it out. 

[livednlearned]

He probably won't get sole custody -- it's hard even for mothers of young children to get sole custody in most states, unless there is persuasive documentation that shows a clear pattern or custody is uncontested.

In my state where I got divorced, there was no such thing as sole custody.

Custody is often carved into bits to minimize any sense that one parent is winning and the other is losing. Each state carves it up in different ways so that there is visitation, physical custody (or primary custodial parent) and legal custody (who makes medical and educational decisions). You can then carve up those pieces into even smaller bits, like who chooses the school, whose the tie-breaker on xyz, whether to bring in a parenting coordinator (in states that have them), etc.

What I notice happens here on these boards more often is that disordered BPD fathers seem to focus less on physical custody and more on legal custody. Joint legal custody is a way to control you -- anything you want for your child can be stonewalled and obstructed by an aggrieved co-parent, making it hard to settle even simple medical or educational decisions.

When you talk to your L, let him or her know how much time you feel is safe for your child to be with her father, whether that time needs to be supervised or can be unsupervised. That's the visitation piece to the puzzle. If you think your daughter will not be safe in his care, your L will let you know what kinds of behaviors and documentation are needed to help you obtain that kind of outcome. That will help you gauge what to act on when/if something happens, and how best to document it. He said / she said makes it harder for courts to tell what's actually going on.

Many of us have situations that fly under the radar of the most egregious cases so it can take time both in and out of court to shine sunlight on the whole story.

My ex was a former trial attorney and the court gave him 10 bites of the apple, I guess because he was an attorney and one of them. But after years of this it was clear something was very wrong and bit by bit n/BPDx lost the privilege of parenting in any capacity and I ended up with full legal custody of our son.

80 percent of getting there was n/BPDx shooting himself in the foot, documenting his own bad behaviors (that I gathered), knowing full well it would end up in court.

I think it's hard for pwBPD to help themselves. Sometimes the acting out becomes more unhinged the more people are paying attention.

Hopefully it won't get to that point for you -- I'm almost certain my ex was relieved to not have to parent anymore (he barely did anything anyway) but will resent to the end of his days that he lost control of me.

[ForeverDad]

Keep your plans secret, and stay safe. Consult with lawyers. Don’t expect that you will have an adult- to adult dissolution of the relationship. As you start planning/ withdrawing from the relationship expect him to pretend to change (nicer) or there maybe be pushback (angrier).

When you're trying to repair a marriage, you do share information, it helps restore trust.  If you've concluded the marriage is beyond repair, then you be cautious what you share.  Usually the line between share and not share is to continue parenting, child care, exchanges and certain financial matters.

But that's it.  You have a right to privacy and confidentiality.  Generally good to ignore guilting, wheedling, pressuring and demands.  You don't have to divulge information.  Avoid risk of sabotaging yourself or enabling the other to sabotage you.

And as PeteWitsend wrote, one  weakness we have to face is the Nice Guy or Nice Gal persona.  Yes, we are Nice Guys and Nice Gals but that is a disadvantage in a difficult divorce.  You simply cannot wimp out and Gift your stbEx undeserved advantages. You do need to get the best (less bad) temp order - from the start.  If you Gift stuff away, it will be so much harder to get them back later.

[Gerda]

One bit of advice: YES, you may be in for a custody battle, but do not let that, or the fear of conflict cause you to give in to him, or give up or not fight for what you and your daughter need.

PWBPD love to make threats, but they also don't always follow through on those threats, especially when: 1) following through requires them to do actual work, or 2) following through costs them money.

And his threats to go scorched earth and take your daughter from you would be very time consuming for him, as well as financially draining.

You need to get primary custody, and primary rights to choose things like your daughter's school, place of residence, healthcare, etc.  Do not let fear of conflict lead you to concede parental rights to him, or compromise.

Hmm, this is something I hadn't been thinking about much. I haven't talked to a lawyer yet, but I have been reading up all I can on the internet about how child custody works in my state. I read about the distinction between legal custody and physical custody and all that.

At first I thought I would ask for joint legal custody, which seems to be the default for our state, and then for physical custody ask for something called the "standard visitation schedule," where the "custodial parent" is who the kid primarily lives with, and the "non-custodial parent" gets the kid 2 or 3 weekends a month, every Thursday evening, every other holiday, and a month in the summer. That's the default schedule unless the parents want to work something else out, and under normal circumstances it seems reasonable to me.

However, even that schedule seems overly generous to him. I can't imagine him being able to handle having her for *an entire weekend* without me. A few weeks ago he played with her on a Saturday morning while I did some work in my garden, and afterward he acted like he just did me this huge favor by allowing me to indulge in my hobby for a couple of hours while he entertained our child.

(I admit I would like to finally have some time off though. An entire weekend just to myself to do whatever I wanted? I haven't had that in so long.)

I'm afraid that if I try to get standard visitation, maybe he'd fight me on being the "custodial parent" just to be difficult. My therapist said I might have to start gathering evidence that I'm the "primary caregiver" ahead of time and have that ready.

But now after seeing the above comment, I'm a little worried about the "joint legal custody" part of it. I think me getting sole legal custody would be better for her, because I don't think my husband has good judgement. We live in a crappy school district right now and I'd really like to move her to a better one once she's old enough to start elementary school. My husband already insists that if I divorce him, he wants to keep our house (which he loves), and I'm the one that has to move, and I'm actually fine with that as long as I can take our daughter with me and move somewhere better for us.

I also don't trust him making medical decisions on her behalf because he's a bit of a hypochondriac. We've had fights before where he's freaked out thinking she's seriously ill, and I took her to her pediatrician, who would say it's some minor thing that kids get all the time, and then he'd rant afterward that our pediatrician is incompetent and we need to find a new one because he's internet-diagnosed her with some horrible life-threatening condition. I've lost count of how many times I've taken her to the ER at his insistence and it turned out she had a cold and just needed some Tylenol. And then he'll accuse me of being a horrible, neglectful parent because I'm not freaking out as much as he is whenever she gets sick or hurt. (He also gets angry at me for "allowing" her to get sick/hurt. I try to tell him that kids just get colds, ear infections, skinned knees, etc. all the time and that's just how it is, but in his eyes if something like that happens to her, it's due to my incompetence and neglect and he gets into a rage at me.)

Anyway... I can definitely see joint legal custody going poorly because it's so hard to agree on parenting decisions right now, while we're still married. I'm the one who reads lots of parenting books and articles and listens to experts about things, and he just kind of comes up with crazy ideas with no evidence. Then if I, or our pediatrician, or anyone else disagrees with him, we have no idea what we're talking about.

But from what I've read, you only get sole legal custody if you can prove the other parent is physically abusive to the child or otherwise seriously incompetent as a parent (like in jail or a drug addict or something). He hasn't been directly abusive to our daughter (yet), just verbally/emotionally abusive to me (though often with her right there witnessing the whole thing). As I understand it, they don't really care much about verbal/emotional abuse, and maybe it's one thing if he abuses me, but if he doesn't abuse her then that means that he's still a fine father.

So that's why I've been focusing on getting joint legal custody, and the standard visitation schedule with me as the custodial parent. I thought that would make me look quite reasonable to the court. But yeah that's already probably more parenting than he should be handling, and he keeps threatening to go total scorched earth on me.

[livednlearned]

There's what we ask for, and then there's what we get, and then there's what we get over time 

My ex and I managed to get 90 percent of our stuff sorted in mediation. The 10 percent outstanding was me getting sole legal custody.

The first custodial order is often considered "temporary" which is treated as "permanent" until you contest something by filing a motion to xyz. So temporary = permanent and permanent can be modified when there are substantive changes substantiated with new evidence and documentation. Hopefully you are able to make things work and limp along for a while without going to court, but unfortunately, for many of us, the prospect of going to court is often there. I'd like to think that learning some of the communication and relationship skills would've helped me stay out of court but when you have young kids sometimes it's just unavoidable.

n/BPDx and I left mediation with a custodial order that said "n/BPDx and LnL agree to items 1-9 but do not agree on item 10, so this order resolves 1-9 and leaves 10 to be contested in court. Joint legal for now." That order stayed like that until there were several items requiring joint legal agreement. n/BPDx stonewalled and obstructed even the most basic things that required both parents to consent. I had to file a motion saying "sole legal is needed because this guy is stonewalling and obstructing xyz." With evidence and documentation, the judge could see that n/BPDx would in essence inflict harm on our son if it meant stonewalling or obstructing me.

In other words, you can ask for sole legal because you know it's right, and you might not get it right away, but you will likely get it eventually if your ex cannot co-parent on even the most basic things. Courts do not want to see repeat customers. When you first show up in court and things are relatively normal yet the two of you can't agree, a judge will think: These two knuckleheads need to pull it together. Over time, with evidence and documentation, you show that court is the last place you want to be, but as a law-abiding person trying to raise your child, you cannot get proper medical attention or enroll in school or xyz because ex is high-conflict. All arrows will point to your ex as the parent who is landing you two back in court, plugging up the docket and slowing things down in court for other more severe cases.

In my state, we had a bit of a detour with a parenting coordinator, who had an extension of judicial duties. Like all third-party professionals, this can go either way. I was quite worried about something being charmed by n/BPDx so I balked at signing an agreement to essentially take my case out of court, away from a judge. Instead, I signed the agreement and the PC found n/BPDx too high-conflict to work with and filed a motion to withdraw from our case. That's how I ended up with sole legal.

It might not go that way for you -- my ex was a former trial lawyer and was drawn to court like a moth to flame, even though it burnt him, he seemed to need the attention (?) or weird validation he got from showing up in his suit and tie and demonstrating his comfort in the courtroom.

If you have the right people involved in your case, court becomes a place where reasonable people help you and your child move on and live your lives. If the wrong people are involved, it can make hard things harder.

I made some financial decisions (moving to the next county over) that weren't great for my son and I in the short-term because the judges there were known for being pragmatic, versus the good ol' boys reputation in the county where I lived. That was probably the most important decision I made other than the decision to divorce.

You'll learn a bunch when you consult with different lawyers. People here can help you think of good questions to ask, and how to evaluate which ones will work hardest to help you get what you need. The nice thing about this board is that we aren't here to make money and were ourselves motivated to cut costs, something lawyers don't tend to help their clients with, even the good ones. Splitting by Eddy is a good start and lawyers are often essential, and people here can help fill in the gaps.

[ForeverDad]

Some parents can handle one day alternate weekends, or maybe only a few hours at a time.

Just because you need time away sometimes due to work or to have a break doesn't mean the ex has to be the care giver.  You can take advantage of work child care, daycare, or a trusted sitter.  But be prepared to address any complaints ex may stir up.

Also, beware of building in too many exchanges.  Remember, odds are you'll be the one running around.  What some have reported is they after the court days are in the rear view mirror, the ex gifts away some of the parenting time they previously demanded.

I recall meeting one mother with child sitting at the neutral exchange location (our local sheriff's parking lot) lamenting that the father never showed up.

Also my local county lists a default for the parent in possession to deliver the child to the exchange location.  If the non-primary parent is a no show, that's a wasted trip.  Ponder if that will be an issue and how you can address it in the order.  For example, if conflict is reduced and the exchange location is each home, then have the ex come to pick up and then you pick up from ex's home.  Or require a text/email in advance to confirm exchange so you don't waste your time waiting.

Many here have observed that the less-involved problem parents typically demand so much parenting time so they can claim to be an involved father or mother but then later lapse back to their previous parenting patterns.  Ponder how to handle that.

[PeteWitsend]

...
Many here have observed that the less-involved problem parents typically demand so much parenting time so they can claim to be an involved father or mother but then later lapse back to their previous parenting patterns.  Ponder how to handle that.

Apparently one trend in this regard is for an ex- to fight for 50/50 so they don't have to pay child support, but often not show up or make excuses why they can't see their kid(s) that day.  So the mom (typically seems to be the mom), ends up with more than 50% custody but w/out the benefit of child support.

That's something that absolutely has to be fought over up front, because the alternative is to have to document all this, AND THEN go back to court to fight for a modification and prove it... something easier said than done.

Gerda, I have a few additional thoughts, which I'll type up in a response.

I'm divorced from my uBPDxw, but ~two years after that, had to sue her to modify our custody (which has now been going on for 2 years). 

[PeteWitsend]

Apparently one trend in this regard is for an ex- to fight for 50/50 so they don't have to pay child support, but often not show up or make excuses why they can't see their kid(s) that day.  So the mom (typically seems to be the mom), ends up with more than 50% custody as a matter of practice but w/out the benefit of child support.

That's something that absolutely has to be fought over up front, because the alternative is to have to document all this, AND THEN go back to court to fight for a modification and prove it... something easier said than done.

Gerda, I have a few additional thoughts, which I'll type up in a response.

I'm divorced from my uBPDxw, but ~two years after that, had to sue her to modify our custody (which the lawsuit has now been going on for 2 years).  I had been advised by my (lousy) first attorney to settle for less in the initial divorce settlement and just go back to court when my ex screwed up.  But going back to modify an existing order is tough; for one thing, courts like to presume that the initial order was good and fair, and so you have the hurdle of showing not only why it hasn't worked out, but why you didn't argue that in the first place.

Hence my point about being ready to fight up front and not concede key rights for the sake of expediency.

[PeteWitsend]

did BPDfamily get rid of the "modify" button?  I accidentally quoted my post instead of editing it, and now I can't seem to revise or delete it.

[kells76]

did BPDfamily get rid of the "modify" button?  I accidentally quoted my post instead of editing it, and now I can't seem to revise or delete it.

(the recent hack damaged "modify" button coding in a substantial way. It is being worked on but no ETA for a fix yet: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357138.0 )

[Gerda]

My therapist seems to agree with what some of you have said that he might be talking big right now about wanting to be the custodial parent, or wanting "at least 50/50" parenting time, and so on, but then over time he'll start slacking off. She says people with BPD are just too selfish to devote so much of their precious time to taking care of small children who are so needy.

I figured out a while ago that he really can only last about 2 or 3 hours before he starts getting annoyed and wants to go do something else. So if I ask him to "babysit" so I can go do some chores or run some errands or worse, go do something fun like go out to a movie with friends or work on one of my hobbies, he acts like he's doing me this huge favor. He'll show me his weekend to do list and complain about how long it is and how he just doesn't have time to watch the kid because he has sooooo much stuff to do. We've had lots of fights about this before, the kind where he gets into a screaming rage at me, until I finally gave up even bringing it up. Now I only ask her to watch her if I absolutely can't for some really good reason.

So it could be that if he ends up with an "every other weekend" type visitation schedule, he'll start slacking off after a while. The thing is, he really wants to look like an excellent, involved father to other people, so I sometimes wonder if he'll put on some kind of act in court about wanting to have more time with our daughter just for show.

In one of the books I read there was a questionnaire to assess whether your loved one is likely to have NPD or BPD or a combination (It might have been How to Stop Walking on Eggshells), and when I did it for my husband, he came out having about equal numbers of NPD and BPD traits. My therapist says he sounds to her more BPD than NPD, but he does really, really care what other people think of him and really wants to be seen as this super dad.

[SaltyDawg]

In one of the books I read there was a questionnaire to assess whether your loved one is likely to have NPD or BPD or a combination (It might have been How to Stop Walking on Eggshells), and when I did it for my husband, he came out having about equal numbers of NPD and BPD traits. My therapist says he sounds to her more BPD than NPD, but he does really, really care what other people think of him and really wants to be seen as this super dad.

Yes, the assessment tool you speak of is SWOE by Randi Kreger.  My uBPD/uNPD-exgf had both sets of traits too, but was more BPD than NPD, even though both were evident - depending on which study you look at there can be a significant comorbidity of the two, and they are both Cluster-B PD's which have similar traits.

NPD's will do just about anything to look good because they think they are that good, and they can be vindictive too, and will hurt you any way they can, and unfortunately children are often the method to do this with the mothers.  Keep documenting, keep your eye on the prize for the most parenting you can get.  And as you have guessed, it will likely he will be overwhelmed, and he will let you have them more than the court ordered amount.  Don't offer exchanges of time, but sure you will take them since it is an inconvenience to you.

Splitting by Billy Eddy is an excellent book.  If you are concerned about parental alienation, Billy Eddy also has a book on that too.

I have an female acquaintance who just got sole custody, after the NPD father kept the kids from her and ignored the courts orders.

Don't give up hope.  Keep fighting for your children, and yourself.

I am sure all of this has been quite draining emotionally, so I will also recommend to do a lot of self-care whatever that might look like for you.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[PeteWitsend]

I always felt like the NPD/BPD distinction is only meaningful to the extent you're trying to improve a relationship or at least minimize conflict.

It's a meaningless - or less meaningful - distinction if you're looking to end it, move on and find someone who isn't disordered. 

[Gerda]

I always felt like the NPD/BPD distinction is only meaningful to the extent you're trying to improve a relationship or at least minimize conflict.

It's a meaningless - or less meaningful - distinction if you're looking to end it, move on and find someone who isn't disordered. 

That is a good point, but it might matter if I'm trying to anticipate how he'll behave through the divorce process. But maybe it doesn't matter that much. I don't know.

I'm no psychologist, but from what I've read it seems to me like NPD is almost like a higher-functioning form of BPD. They're both really insecure and care a lot about what other people think of them, but narcissists do a better job deluding themselves than borderlines? Something like that.

[PeteWitsend]

I think narcissists have more clear "triggers" and are a little more predictable insofar as their egotistical needs drive their reactions.

With BPDers, their fears of abandonment and dysregulated emotional responses to things make them a little harder to predict just what might set them off. 

In either case though, divorce is going to trigger them: for NPDers is the idea that they have to lose something/not come out on top/get rejected by their spouse; for BPDers it's that their partner is abandoning them, like they always feared.

Either way, they will not take the divorce well and will fight it... (until they run out of money/get bored/find someone else/etc)