Well looks like divorce is finally happening Pt. 2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Link back to origin thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=356916.0

Question.  First court date coming up.  I have raging videos that might get played.  Attorney said in a couple I am in it just calmly asking her to stop yelling but didn't do anything.

How do you respond to that?  If I had jumped in she probably would have escalated to violence,  and we all know you can't yell and scream back at her.  Don't know how to respond to this if asked.

[mikejones75093]

Link back to origin thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=356916.0

Question.  First court date coming up.  I have raging videos that might get played.  Attorney said in a couple I am in it just calmly asking her to stop yelling but didn't do anything.

How do you respond to that?  If I had jumped in she probably would have escalated to violence,  and we all know you can't yell and scream back at her.  Don't know how to respond to this if asked.

[kells76]

Question.  First court date coming up.  I have raging videos that might get played.  Attorney said in a couple I am in it just calmly asking her to stop yelling but didn't do anything.

How do you respond to that?  If I had jumped in she probably would have escalated to violence,  and we all know you can't yell and scream back at her.  Don't know how to respond to this if asked.

Are the kids in the videos?

What is she threatening to do in the videos?

How does your attorney recommend that you comment on the videos?

[ForeverDad]

However, your ex, in her perceptions, has to do typical BPD denial, blaming and blame shifting.  As if, well she may have behaved badly, but you're worse.

I think a response I'd include is "I just want this to be over and get on with my life and parenting."  Back when I first took the stand and her lawyer asked me, "Do you want her back?" I somehow realized I didn't want to confirm his attempt to make me into a controller (I had failed as a 'fixer' of course) so I'm so glad I replied, "Not as she is."

[SaltyDawg]

Question.  First court date coming up.  I have raging videos that might get played.  Attorney said in a couple I am in it just calmly asking her to stop yelling but didn't do anything.

How do you respond to that?  If I had jumped in she probably would have escalated to violence,  and we all know you can't yell and scream back at her.  Don't know how to respond to this if asked.

Be honest, and tell them exactly what you just said, or a well worded version of what you have just described.  Run it by your attorney, and memorize it, and be prepared to answer questions on it.

I am not a legal expert, nor law enforcement; however, I do have some law enforcement training (homeland security), and what you described from a male perspective is the best possible thing you could have done - I am guessing the courts would agree with this.  Let the video speak for itself.  If you are asked why you didn't engage more, tell them if you did more engagement, she would have likely escalated the situation, and your goal was to de-escalate it and remain cool and calm throughout the incident to make the best of a bad situation that your wife put you in.

Less is best when it comes to letting an irrefutable video show what actually occurred.  If you don't know why your wife did something, state as much.  If you only asked her to remain calm, tell the truth that you wanted to de-escalate the situation, and this was the only way you knew how.  If pressed, tell them you are not a trained behavioural specialist and never learned this in school.  If they reword the question, give them the same answer.  Her attorney will do everything they can to trip you up.  The less you give them, the less they can trip you up with.  If the answer is in the video, just indicate that 'the video speaks for itself, and I have nothing to add'.  

Don't overthink this - just stick with the facts.

You got this.

Take care with self care.

SD

[mikejones75093]

Are the kids in the videos?

What is she threatening to do in the videos?

How does your attorney recommend that you comment on the videos?

Yes the kids are in the videos.  She is screaming and cussing them and me, extreme rage.  I'm there saying please calm down please stop yelling.   When she's like that there is really nothing else I can do.  Anything more and she might escalate to violence like throwing things at me.  My attorney is working on it, and I have not heard back yet.  She is assuming they might ask me about that in cross examination.

[mikejones75093]

Be honest, and tell them exactly what you just said, or a well worded version of what you have just described.  Run it by your attorney, and memorize it, and be prepared to answer questions on it.

I am not a legal expert, nor law enforcement; however, I do have some law enforcement training (homeland security), and what you described from a male perspective is the best possible thing you could have done - I am guessing the courts would agree with this.  Let the video speak for itself.  If you are asked why you didn't engage more, tell them if you did more engagement, she would have likely escalated the situation, and your goal was to de-escalate it and remain cool and calm throughout the incident to make the best of a bad situation that your wife put you in.

Less is best when it comes to letting an irrefutable video show what actually occurred.  If you don't know why your wife did something, state as much.  If you only asked her to remain calm, tell the truth that you wanted to de-escalate the situation, and this was the only way you knew how.  If pressed, tell them you are not a trained behavioural specialist and never learned this in school.  If they reword the question, give them the same answer.  Her attorney will do everything they can to trip you up.  The less you give them, the less they can trip you up with.  If the answer is in the video, just indicate that 'the video speaks for itself, and I have nothing to add'.  

Don't overthink this - just stick with the facts.

You got this.

Take care with self care.

SD

Sounds good.   For real she is scary when she gets like that and no amount of talking can get through.  As I tell her to calm down she just cusses at me louder and calls me names.

[ForeverDad]

You may be asked, "Why didn't you leave?"  (After all, that is one of our suggestions.  Take yourself out of the conflict.)

I recall one specific incident when I did try to leave.  My then-spouse was ranting and raging.  I headed to the back door to get away.  She jumped on my back and wouldn't get off!  She was dressing me down and by golly she wasn't going to let me escape.

Depending on what happened when you were in such circumstances, one answer to state could be, "I couldn't leave my kids behind and if I tried she would have become even more enraged."  With the video they would know what actually did happen and they could extrapolate what feasibly would have happened had you done more than hunker down and weather the storm.

[SaltyDawg]

Yes the kids are in the videos.  She is screaming and cussing them and me, extreme rage.  I'm there saying please calm down please stop yelling.   When she's like that there is really nothing else I can do.  Anything more and she might escalate to violence like throwing things at me.  My attorney is working on it, and I have not heard back yet.  She is assuming they might ask me about that in cross examination.

For me, I usually physically move between her and the kids, kind of like a human shield.  Fortunately my wife can hold it together enough where she will not yell at the kids; however, since my previous post and this one, my wife had another lapse - the worst one this year since last winter.  Got it on video, where my uBPDw and S12 were yelling at each other on the top of their voices when they came home together.  It's ugly.  The holidays bring so much stress, and she is becoming more dysregulated, I can't wait until January arrives for it to revert back, in the meantime damage control.

If you were staying to protect the children, this is my excuse.  You wanted to ensure the safety of your children.

Here are some thoughts that are crossing my mind now that I am aware she also did this in front of your children.  Be prepared to answer why you physically didn't get between your child and your wife while the rage episode was occuring in order to protect your children (perhaps if she has not been physical before with the children, this was not an immediate concern for you).  Also, be prepared to answer why you didn't reach out to CPS/authorities to make a report.  For me, I was not educated on what to do, since the children were not physically hit.  (possibly add, "Now that I have just been made aware of responsibilities to report yelling as well, from this point forward I will do that".  For me, I made reports to our couple's therapist, a former CPS LCSW, who is a mandated reporter, and let her deal with it within the therapy session, which will include the most recent transgression - I will let me wife explain it in her terms, and they I finish it with my observations of it  This can potentially be a very slippery slope that you are on.

Check with your attorney, but I think the litmus test that the authorities use for this is "if she is a danger [physically] to herself or others".  Perhaps use that construct in your explanation(s) as well.  Reassure the court you would have dialed 911 if she started to get physical with yourself and/or your children which didn't quite happen, but you were recording the incident just in case she escalated it as you didn't know what she was capable of doing to protect the children as well as yourself.

Good luck.

[ForeverDad]

I had called my local CPS agency twice during the final months before separation.  I described that my preschooler was exposed to my spouse's rants and rages.  I was told, "Call back if she focuses her rages onto your child."

What is considered actionable versus not actionable can vary between jurisdiction and states.  In my area, some 15 years ago, I was told a child being exposed to abusive behavior was less actionable than it being focused on the child.  Your area may or may not see those criteria differently.

Surely you weren't aware of the local differences (exposure versus being a focus) before.  Are you now?

[mikejones75093]

So she's boxing up all of our decorations.  Didn't even bring it up to me.  Is thus a control boundary thing?  Also, I think our orders say not to remove furnishings from the house.  Should I say something?

[Notwendy]

Sounds like she's making a statement "look at me, no Christmas for you!!". As to "furnishings" - that's a broad definition. Not sure if decorations count. If it's a large and costly or sentimental item- maybe that's worth speaking up about. If she's running off with the elf on the shelf, not sure it's worth the conflict.

[mikejones75093]

Sounds like she's making a statement "look at me, no Christmas for you!!". As to "furnishings" - that's a broad definition. Not sure if decorations count. If it's a large and costly or sentimental item- maybe that's worth speaking up about. If she's running off with the elf on the shelf, not sure it's worth the conflict.

I'm talking like every decoration and picture in every room.   She spent around 20k on this.  It's explained pretty clear we aren't supposed to remove or transfer personal property fixtures or furnishings.

She never even spoke to me about it, just packed it up and moved it like she was entitled.

Talked to her today.  Let her know we need boundaries and she can't just take things.   She told me they were hers because she purchased them. Well ya with my credit card.  She wasn't too happy I spoke to her about this.  Started saying she doesn't feel safe at home anymore so she has to move. 

I was calm and cool, did everything by the book.   We'll see if she gets the point.

[Notwendy]

Good that you stayed calm. Possibly she's trying to provoke you. I'd leave the property situation to your lawyer. Maybe it can be part of the accounting for during the settlement.

[EyesUp]

Good that you stayed calm. Possibly she's trying to provoke you. I'd leave the property situation to your lawyer. Maybe it can be part of the accounting for during the settlement.

This is the way.

Document everything you can. 

I went through a similar situation. Before the plunder started, I had the forethought to take pictures of everything in every room.  When we got into stipulations re: division of marital assets, my uBPDx refused to discuss anything, and demanded that I remain out of the house on the day she picked to move.

With the writing on the wall, I stole a page from her playbook and removed a number of things that were valuable to me ahead of her move-out day - mainly a few family heirlooms that were in boxes along with important papers - not conspicuous items on a shelf - and discretely gave them to a family member for safe keeping to ensure nothing was damaged or "missing" after the fact.

I mentally prepared for her to take more than 50% - and she did.

Ultimately, I recognized that it was for the best that she took almost all of the kids' furniture, as at least I knew the kids would have familiar things ready to go at her new place.  I focused on replacing the kids' stuff first. 

Over a period of months, I made a number of puzzling discoveries:  She interpreted "split things evenly" in strange ways, e.g., we had two sets of kitchen knives.  Instead of picking one set, she took half of each set.  Disordered thinking?  An overt attempt to demonstrate that she was splitting things down the middle?  A passive aggressive move intended to bother me?  All of the above?  Honestly, it was such a small thing, I had to laugh. There have been a bunch of times when I've made similar discoveries about what went with her vs. what stayed.

I was glad she took the bedroom set - although it was really nice, I had no desire to keep that particular "marital asset" as I knew she brought her affair partner home at least once...   I found a replacement on Facebook marketplace (finally a useful feature from Facebook) that was almost free and perfect for me.

In short, don't get into skirmishes over who keeps what, unless it's really $$$$ stuff.  Document what you can, before and after.  Look forward to upgrading when you are able.  Material stuff is not the most important thing, but new stuff might be a small part of how you reboot when you get through the separation...

Hang in there!

[mikejones75093]

This is the way.

Document everything you can. 

I went through a similar situation. Before the plunder started, I had the forethought to take pictures of everything in every room.  When we got into stipulations re: division of marital assets, my uBPDx refused to discuss anything, and demanded that I remain out of the house on the day she picked to move.

With the writing on the wall, I stole a page from her playbook and removed a number of things that were valuable to me ahead of her move-out day - mainly a few family heirlooms that were in boxes along with important papers - not conspicuous items on a shelf - and discretely gave them to a family member for safe keeping to ensure nothing was damaged or "missing" after the fact.

I mentally prepared for her to take more than 50% - and she did.

Ultimately, I recognized that it was for the best that she took almost all of the kids' furniture, as at least I knew the kids would have familiar things ready to go at her new place.  I focused on replacing the kids' stuff first. 

Over a period of months, I made a number of puzzling discoveries:  She interpreted "split things evenly" in strange ways, e.g., we had two sets of kitchen knives.  Instead of picking one set, she took half of each set.  Disordered thinking?  An overt attempt to demonstrate that she was splitting things down the middle?  A passive aggressive move intended to bother me?  All of the above?  Honestly, it was such a small thing, I had to laugh. There have been a bunch of times when I've made similar discoveries about what went with her vs. what stayed.

I was glad she took the bedroom set - although it was really nice, I had no desire to keep that particular "marital asset" as I knew she brought her affair partner home at least once...   I found a replacement on Facebook marketplace (finally a useful feature from Facebook) that was almost free and perfect for me.

In short, don't get into skirmishes over who keeps what, unless it's really $$$$ stuff.  Document what you can, before and after.  Look forward to upgrading when you are able.  Material stuff is not the most important thing, but new stuff might be a small part of how you reboot when you get through the separation...

Hang in there!

Honestly I don't want the stuff anyway.  I was just irked she thought she could take it all without even saying anything to me.  Also, she did spend a lot on it so ya I want it to come out of her end.

Maybe I'm an idiot for not doing this sooner but I took her to the side,  calmly explained to her that wasn't her stuff but ours.  Told her we need boundaries and please don't take another thing out of this house.  She said ok and almost looked at peace like she wanted me to stand up for myself.

Same thing with the kids.  Told her they aren't yours but ours and to stop taking them all day every day.  She ok call me later and we can set something up.  Sorry what?  Didn't expect that.  Like me being calm but affirmative she enjoyed it or something

[SinisterComplex]

Honestly I don't want the stuff anyway.  I was just irked she thought she could take it all without even saying anything to me.  Also, she did spend a lot on it so ya I want it to come out of her end.

Maybe I'm an idiot for not doing this sooner but I took her to the side,  calmly explained to her that wasn't her stuff but ours.  Told her we need boundaries and please don't take another thing out of this house.  She said ok and almost looked at peace like she wanted me to stand up for myself.

Same thing with the kids.  Told her they aren't yours but ours and to stop taking them all day every day.  She ok call me later and we can set something up.  Sorry what?  Didn't expect that.  Like me being calm but affirmative she enjoyed it or something

Remember I have reiterated being firm and indifferent right? Well, this is the prime example....it is all tied to respect. You were measured and composed and "led" the situation. You were not worried about being liked or trying to accommodate her, but instead took charge and showed you are to be respected. That goes a long way.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[SaltyDawg]

So she's boxing up all of our decorations.  Didn't even bring it up to me.  Is thus a control boundary thing?  Also, I think our orders say not to remove furnishings from the house.  Should I say something?

Document, use video, and yes you should say something (with the video recording in progress) in a cool calm voice, which you did, and it was effective.  But, if the next time it is ineffective, just back off and continue to video, so you can show the court that she is in contempt.

I'm talking like every decoration and picture in every room.   She spent around 20k on this.  It's explained pretty clear we aren't supposed to remove or transfer personal property fixtures or furnishings.

She never even spoke to me about it, just packed it up and moved it like she was entitled.

Talked to her today.  Let her know we need boundaries and she can't just take things.   She told me they were hers because she purchased them. Well ya with my credit card.  She wasn't too happy I spoke to her about this.  Started saying she doesn't feel safe at home anymore so she has to move. 

I was calm and cool, did everything by the book.   We'll see if she gets the point.

Possession is 9/10ths, whomever possesses an item controls it 90% unless a court order mandates it back.

Honestly I don't want the stuff anyway.  I was just irked she thought she could take it all without even saying anything to me.  Also, she did spend a lot on it so ya I want it to come out of her end.

Maybe I'm an idiot for not doing this sooner but I took her to the side,  calmly explained to her that wasn't her stuff but ours.  Told her we need boundaries and please don't take another thing out of this house.  She said ok and almost looked at peace like she wanted me to stand up for myself.

Same thing with the kids.  Told her they aren't yours but ours and to stop taking them all day every day.  She ok call me later and we can set something up.  Sorry what?  Didn't expect that.  Like me being calm but affirmative she enjoyed it or something

If you don't want the stuff, use it as a bargaining chip so you can get something that you want later on in this process of division of marital assets.  Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I won't expand on what the others have told you as that is good advice; however, ...

Now I am going to address what I put in bold on what you shared with us.  Perhaps I am reading too much between the lines; however, I know from my own perspective, before I repaired my backbone and figuratively grew a new backbone, I previously let my wife have her way unfettered and a run-away people pleaser with little boundaries, she had no respect for me.  When I set boundaries and enforce those boundaries, respect for me is returning.

I think you are on to something, that she did enjoy, more specifically you earned some respect with your wife, and generally speaking women like men who are in charge, even if they say otherwise (another topic with a fine line).  So, I feel that you need to set and enforce boundaries whether it is court imposed or new ones that you set, that make sense to her.  She will test those boundaries, and she was testing the court mandated ones.

What do you think?

Take care with self-care.

SD

[mikejones75093]

Remember I have reiterated being firm and indifferent right? Well, this is the prime example....it is all tied to respect. You were measured and composed and "led" the situation. You were not worried about being liked or trying to accommodate her, but instead took charge and showed you are to be respected. That goes a long way.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

She must have taken an online parenting class yesterday.   Crossed a couple more boundaries. I pulled her to the side and let her know affirmatively, she kept saying you seem upset let's have this conversation at another time.  I was calm as can be, just affirmative.  So she's pulling garbage like that now. 

[mikejones75093]

Document, use video, and yes you should say something (with the video recording in progress) in a cool calm voice, which you did, and it was effective.  But, if the next time it is ineffective, just back off and continue to video, so you can show the court that she is in contempt.


Possession is 9/10ths, whomever possesses an item controls it 90% unless a court order mandates it back.


If you don't want the stuff, use it as a bargaining chip so you can get something that you want later on in this process of division of marital assets.  Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I won't expand on what the others have told you as that is good advice; however, ...

Now I am going to address what I put in bold on what you shared with us.  Perhaps I am reading too much between the lines; however, I know from my own perspective, before I repaired my backbone and figuratively grew a new backbone, I previously let my wife have her way unfettered and a run-away people pleaser with little boundaries, she had no respect for me.  When I set boundaries and enforce those boundaries, respect for me is returning.

I think you are on to something, that she did enjoy, more specifically you earned some respect with your wife, and generally speaking women like men who are in charge, even if they say otherwise (another topic with a fine line).  So, I feel that you need to set and enforce boundaries whether it is court imposed or new ones that you set, that make sense to her.  She will test those boundaries, and she was testing the court mandated ones.

What do you think?

Take care with self-care.

SD

You are very right.  I used to be a strong guy that got respect but over thr last decade I quit wanting to deal with it and over time just ignored her blow ups.  It worked for a while when they were just tantrums but now that it escalated to money and kids it's not working and I'm haveing to step back in and figure it all out.  The longer this goes on the more I can see her lies and true self.   She's always held herself as this honest straight forward person, and I mostly believed it.  I have caught her in so many lies the past 3 weeks and hearing her try to defend herself us eye opening.

[mikejones75093]

So question.  First court date for temp hearing coming up soon.  I have those videos of her raging hard,  and since it's temp we don't have to give them anything up front.  Very few people have seen her rage.  She will not do that in public or even around friends.  After her long dramatic I'm the victim thing once she is shown these videos,  how will she react?  I know highly embarrassed,  but will she lose it in court and go off?  Or can she hold it together?

[ForeverDad]

After her long dramatic I'm the victim thing once she is shown these videos,  how will she react?  I know highly embarrassed,  but will she lose it in court and go off?  Or can she hold it together?

As for specifics, you know your spouse better than us.  In general, she may pull back, or she may just make new claims that even so you're still worse than her.

My court and all the local professionals were reluctant to comment on us bickering parents, they didn't know us well enough yet.  My spouse just moved on from one failed allegation to the next one, usually more shocking than the one before.  And court made no effort to give consequences for the "unsubstantiated" allegations nor limit how many.  In a way, she dug her own hole and essentially buried herself, though that took time, felt like eons.

[mikejones75093]

As for specifics, you know your spouse better than us.  In general, she may pull back, or she may just make new claims that even so you're still worse than her.

My court and all the local professionals were reluctant to comment on us bickering parents, they didn't know us well enough yet.  My spouse just moved on from one failed allegation to the next one, usually more shocking than the one before.  And court made no effort to give consequences for the "unsubstantiated" allegations nor limit how many.  In a way, she dug her own hole and essentially buried herself, though that took time, felt like eons.

With all her lying, alienation, taking things against court orders, posting disparaging comments,  and false allegations I am hoping she digs a deep obvious hole.

[EyesUp]

So question.  First court date for temp hearing coming up soon.  I have those videos of her raging hard,  and since it's temp we don't have to give them anything up front.  Very few people have seen her rage.  She will not do that in public or even around friends.  After her long dramatic I'm the victim thing once she is shown these videos,  how will she react?  I know highly embarrassed,  but will she lose it in court and go off?  Or can she hold it together?

You know her best, and should carefully consider how and when to disclosure certain documentation.

Courts generally preserve the status quo, unless there is conspicuous evidence of danger to the kids.  It may be premature for this argument, unless you footage of her raging directly at the kids, or other abuse in which the kids are directly involved.

Consider giving her room to further incriminate herself by not disclosing anything other than “I’m superdad” at this stage, if you and your atty are comfortable with this approach.

[mikejones75093]

You know her best, and should carefully consider how and when to disclosure certain documentation.

Courts generally preserve the status quo, unless there is conspicuous evidence of danger to the kids.  It may be premature for this argument, unless you footage of her raging directly at the kids, or other abuse in which the kids are directly involved.

Consider giving her room to further incriminate herself by not disclosing anything other than “I’m superdad” at this stage, if you and your atty are comfortable with this approach.

I'm going to follow attorney lead.  Let them know my priorities are kids.  I just know she's going to go on a charming rant about how great she is and how the kids do so well with her and how horrible i am.  She has no friends or family.  I have family and friends showing up. Hopefully that looks good

[SaltyDawg]

I'm going to follow attorney lead.  Let them know my priorities are kids.  I just know she's going to go on a charming rant about how great she is and how the kids do so well with her and how horrible i am.  She has no friends or family.  I have family and friends showing up. Hopefully that looks good

That is the precise advice I was going to give you -- follow your attorney's advice, especially if they have seen this kind of behavior before with other clients.  Give your attorney all the information so your attorney can shine a spotlight on her bad behaviors in a manner for greatest effect.  Stick to the facts, and if questions on her version of the her facts on how horrible you are, if your wife is anything like mine, she will have already telegraphed her arguments (in conversation, idle threats, social media, texts, voice mails, rants, rages, etc.), so you know what to prepare for and have pre-prepared answers for. 

Once your wife has file the petitions for divorce, even though you feel some F.O.G. towards her, don't - you no longer have an obligation to manage her feelings by not stepping on the eggshells.  She has played her cards, you have collected evidence to the contrary, and her house of cards will come tumbling down - how she behaves is up to her.  However, if she 'looses' it in front of the court, it will be to your benefit if she does.  Just remain cool, and follow your attorney's lead.

Please keep us updated, as I am curious about your well being and how this plays out for you.

Be sure to do some self-care whatever that might look like for you.

Take care.

SD

[GaGrl]

In working with your attorney to ensure the children are the priority, it is critical at this point to have your house/address set as "residence for school attendance." It is easy for that phrase to get lost in a temp order. Otherwise, your STBX can move your children to a school convenient to her new address.

[PeteWitsend]

In working with your attorney to ensure the children are the priority, it is critical at this point to have your house/address set as "residence for school attendance." It is easy for that phrase to get lost in a temp order. Otherwise, your STBX can move your children to a school convenient to her new address.

Yes, that is huge.  And as residence restrictions are typically set by county, she could move to a more remote part of the county which makes it difficult to pick up kids/take them to school on a workday. 

courts never appreciate that sort of thing, but most people have to work, and balancing child care & transportation is difficult as it is

[EyesUp]

My atty advised that the best restriction I could hope for would be against a move out of state.  The explanation was that in our agreement, we have joint decision making for education and health matters - so any change of school would require mutual agreement. 

And since I intend to continue to reside within the existing school district, any attempt to change schools on her part would require my explicit agreement.

In fact, my uBPDx did attempt to move one of our 3 kids to a new school without my consent, which I was able to quickly and easily stop without litigation (that's another story...).

I expect that my uBPDx will make another attempt, as she is now engaged to be married this summer and will likely look beyond the current school district for a new home for herself and her fiance.  At which point, I expect that I will be able to demonstrate that there is not significant cause for a change of school for the mother's sole convenience, and that the best interest of the children is continuity within their existing community - where they are all socially engaged, and performing well academically.  Disruption is not a benefit to the kids, and courts generally prefer status quo when there is no overt need for intervention.

I have no doubt that this may trigger more resentment and escalation with my uBPDx, which is why many here advocate going for a primary decision maker / tie breaker role when/if possible.

My atty advised that this would not be easily achieved in our agreement.  If I had pushed for a contested divorce, I may have been able to use some of my uBPDx's history to accomplish a ruling in my favor as primary parent, but it wasn't a slam dunk.

Explore your options and preferences carefully with your atty.

Do you have a strong case for primary parent status?
If not, are you able to maintain a home in the current school district?
How do you think you'll fare in a 50-50 decision making arrangement?
Who has historically taken parent-teacher meetings, doctor appointments, etc?

All of these details should factor into your strategy and forward plan.

In my case, I was an active parent and participated in all of the above, and so contrary to my uBPDx's false/distorted claim that she was always primary parent and I was not involved, I was able to negotiate to 50-50. 

[mikejones75093]

So temporary hearing yesterday.  Judge acted upset to even be there.  She got on the stand and lied, she works, takes care of the kids, plays with the kids, and I do nothing and I have substance abuse issues.  Wouldn't admit she works the days she does and danced around to try and not admit I take care of the kids.

He didn't have the ability to watch my videos, said he would do that on his own time.

I'm so nervous and I feel like it was a terrible experience.  No clue what to expect.  Haven't slept.

[ForeverDad]

So temporary hearing yesterday.  Judge acted upset to even be there.

Of course the judge is a bit peeved.  With two contrasting accounts, he's the one stuck with figuring out what to do.  So he didn't change anything, kids are still at your house as a home base?  Has the judge set any sort of parenting or exchange schedule meanwhile?

He didn't have the ability to watch my videos, said he would do that on his own time.

Wow, that's more than I got from my court.  Were they entered into evidence?  When I did that, finally in my last struggle after years in and out of court, I had to state on the record when and where I had recorded.

Judge probably is also hoping that waiting until the next hearing might give impetus to the parents figuring out their differences.  But with PDs involved that's a it much to hope for.

Remember, a so-called temp order may be "only temporary" but it's important to get the best (least bad) temp order since ours last so much longer than others.  The last thing you want is to relax and let whatever happen to you and then you have to play catch up.

[mikejones75093]

Of course the judge is a bit peeved.  With two contrasting accounts, he's the one stuck with figuring out what to do.  So he didn't change anything, kids are still at your house as a home base?  Has the judge set any sort of parenting or exchange schedule meanwhile?

Wow, that's more than I got from my court.  Were they entered into evidence?  When I did that, finally in my last struggle after years in and out of court, I had to state on the record when and where I had recorded.

Judge probably is also hoping that waiting until the next hearing might give impetus to the parents figuring out their differences.  But with PDs involved that's a it much to hope for.

Remember, a so-called temp order may be "only temporary" but it's important to get the best (least bad) temp order since ours last so much longer than others.  The last thing you want is to relax and let whatever happen to you and then you have to play catch up.

Waiting in a ruling.  Could be today or tomorrow who knows.  First thing he said is, because you 2 adults can't figure this out now I have to deal with it.   He's obviously never tried to deal with her, she won't agree on anything except she takes everything and I leave.  Judge didn't seem concerned with substance abuse, told them, he said he quit drinking move on.   I'm going to voluntarily go take court approved tests to put the issue to rest.  I have no clue.  If he watches my videos I don't know how he can allow her to choose residence and school.  They are very bad.  Screaming and throwing things at kids.  Cussing and calling them names.  It's just brutal sitting around and waiting for his ruling. 

[ForeverDad]

I'm going to voluntarily go take court approved tests to put the issue to rest...

If he watches my videos I don't know how he can allow her to choose residence and school.  They are very bad.  Screaming and throwing things at kids.  Cussing and calling them names.  It's just brutal sitting around and waiting for his ruling.

A strategy I advocate, if possible, is not to simply defend yourself.  More than that, ask the court to test or assess both of you equally.  Too often our cases have one (posing as victim) accusing the other (framed as abuser).

With videos like that it would be incredible for her claims as a victim to be believed.

[mikejones75093]

A strategy I advocate, if possible, is not to simply defend yourself.  More than that, ask the court to test or assess both of you equally.  Too often our cases have one (posing as victim) accusing the other (framed as abuser).

With videos like that it would be incredible for her claims as a victim to be believed.

I agree.  I'm going to have to bring up mental health.   Don't know how much I want the courts to interview the kids but they know mama screams.  They also know mama screams at daddy so maybe I should ask for that.

[ForeverDad]

Courts assume you're an adult and can handle being a focus of rants and rages. You as an adult always have the option to leave the relationship.

In general, if a parent in such a scenario does not leave the relationship then, regardless whether family court does or does not get involved, the overall example for the children is an unhealthy or dysfunctional one.  They will not come to know what a normal home environment should be.  However, court will not try to "fix" either parent.  It deals with them as they are.  It hopefully does the best it can under the circumstances before it.

Children are bigger concern for courts since they are minors.  If they also appear to be a focus of rants and rages then the court, or more likely a children's agency, should assess whether it is actionable or not.

At the very least it is not preferable and ought to be a consideration in decisions even if it is not seen as actionable abuse.

[mikejones75093]

Courts assume you're an adult and can handle being a focus of rants and rages. You as an adult always have the option to leave the relationship.

In general, if a parent in such a scenario does not leave the relationship then, regardless whether family court does or does not get involved, the overall example for the children is an unhealthy or dysfunctional one.  They will not come to know what a normal home environment should be.  However, court will not try to "fix" either parent.  It deals with them as they are.  It hopefully does the best it can under the circumstances before it.

Children are bigger concern for courts since they are minors.  If they also appear to be a focus of rants and rages then the court, or more likely a children's agency, should assess whether it is actionable or not.

At the very least it is not preferable and ought to be a consideration in decisions even if it is not seen as actionable abuse.

So I should get them an advocate?

[SaltyDawg]

So I should get them an advocate?

Talk to your attorney, they should be able to advise you.  Do what's best for your children; however, getting more people involved will increase the cost of your case exponentially - it is a delicate balance of what you should do and don't do and how you handle this without breaking the bank.

If the courts determine that your children should have representation (an advocate), they will appoint a GAL - guardian ad litem - if you can afford it, you will also be responsible for their fees, and they are not cheap.

I've been involved in a custody case on behalf of an ASPD-SB that had a GAL - the one I was dealing with was exceptionally anti-male (misandry) in nature.  Your attorney should be able to advise you on how to proceed.

I am navigating my own borderline relationship with my uBPDw the intent on what is best for the children, and keeping the peace in the house, with the secondary intent on my wife's recovery, which has been close to 50% but has stalled until she can understand how her feelings are manipulating her version of the everchanging facts - a very slow process.

In the meantime how my uBPDw deals with our children has improved dramatically, there are still some lapses; however, for the most part our children are starting to thrive with the changes that have been made.

Take care with self care and taking care of your children.

SD

[mikejones75093]

Talk to your attorney, they should be able to advise you.  Do what's best for your children; however, getting more people involved will increase the cost of your case exponentially - it is a delicate balance of what you should do and don't do and how you handle this without breaking the bank.

If the courts determine that your children should have representation (an advocate), they will appoint a GAL - guardian ad litem - if you can afford it, you will also be responsible for their fees, and they are not cheap.

I've been involved in a custody case on behalf of an ASPD-SB that had a GAL - the one I was dealing with was exceptionally anti-male (misandry) in nature.  Your attorney should be able to advise you on how to proceed.

I am navigating my own borderline relationship with my uBPDw the intent on what is best for the children, and keeping the peace in the house, with the secondary intent on my wife's recovery, which has been close to 50% but has stalled until she can understand how her feelings are manipulating her version of the everchanging facts - a very slow process.

In the meantime how my uBPDw deals with our children has improved dramatically, there are still some lapses; however, for the most part our children are starting to thrive with the changes that have been made.

Take care with self care and taking care of your children.

SD

Ruling came in and I think it's good.  50 50 custody no support from either parent but kids stay in school near me, that was huge I think.

He's making us both go through mental health evaluations, so I think that's good.   I already have a PhD therapist, maybe she will be able to do that for me.  We are both required to bring each others evidence to the mental health evaluator.  So the videos I have of her will be seen by them.

Judge also appointed someone to do a custody evaluation?  No clue what that is. 

I voluntarily took all the substance abuse tests to end that talk.

I think it's good.  Mental health evaluation doesn't scare me.  I don't know what a custody evaluation is though.

[SaltyDawg]

Yes we poked all kinds of holes.  They had no evidence, just junk and things that didn't matter.

Started getting very nice texts from her today.  Emailed attorney and responded ruling was in.   Skewed in my favor.

When she's down she's a terrible person, and she looks terrible.   On the swing side when she's up she's amazing and I'm telling you it's a completely different look.  Went to discuss the schedule with her today and she had that look.  I'm so mad at myself,  but I miss her.  First day in an empty house in a very long time.

Use the time when they are away, to organize the evidence you have.  Re-read the "Splitting" book, do as much footwork as you can (to minimize your legal fees) and be pro-active in your case.

Make sure you have a good plan on entertaining the kids when they are with you in a fun way - doesn't have to be expensive.  Do not disparage your wife when children are present.  Do everything by the book, but do keep your eyes open, and document any discrepancies on her part.

It sounds like your wife was on best behavior to gain the children in a manner that she wanted (perhaps Christmas / New Years / etc.).  Do not be lulled into being manipulated by her (unless you are reconciling in a couple's therapist setting, and even if that were to happen, keep your eyes open).

Ruling came in and I think it's good.  50 50 custody no support from either parent but kids stay in school near me, that was huge I think.

From my understanding this is big, did the judge give you control over decision making over which school system the kids should be in, then it would be huge (from my understanding).

It also puts your wife in a bind, as she will not be able to pay the rent, and all the expenses she just did.  Just be prepared for when her reality sets in for her regarding her finances.

Have a male friend with you and/or a body camera rolling during the exchanges, in a public location so there can be no false narratives levied against you.

He's making us both go through mental health evaluations, so I think that's good.   I already have a PhD therapist, maybe she will be able to do that for me.  We are both required to bring each others evidence to the mental health evaluator.  So the videos I have of her will be seen by them.

Look up posts by ForeverDad he has a lot to say on this.  Definitely approach your T to do the evaluation if you feel there are no issues.  However, don't release the evaluation unless it is an even exchange by her evaluator at the same time, or she can withhold, and any minor nuances will be weighed against you without anything from her side when there should be a significant amount.

Regarding the videos (you don't want them to view hundreds of hours at hundreds of dollars per hour, you will get in the the 6-figure legal fee range very quickly) - check with your attorney on how to handle this specifically, and cherry pick 3 each of the worst behaviors that your wife has done, edit them down to show enough in context on how it started.  Why 3 - to show a pattern, of course have more indexed and ready to admit into evidence if they say that is not enough.

If they ask why you didn't submit everything, tell them the truth, you "don't want to run up the legal fees, especially as there is a lot more videos that show bad behavior with the wife, and didn't want to totally destroy her with them."

Judge also appointed someone to do a custody evaluation?  No clue what that is.

 

From my understanding it is an expensive process $5-25k or more where they will look at the evidence, including your videos and the aforementioned mental health evaluations.  Keep the evidence to a minimum to get the point across to get the maximum bang for the buck out (full out rages at you and/or the children).  Also have evidence that you are the primary parent for taking them to the doctor, practices, etc. - a few brief and well written affidavits should suffice on this - check with your attorney.  Make sure that you are the parent with the solutions, willing to be reasonable (but firm) and never lose your cool. Go back to "Splitting" for more details, and ask ForeverDad or go through his old posts.  Make sure all of your i's are dotted, and all of your t's are crossed.  Review everything that is submitted, until there are no more revisions, sleep on it, and repeat, you have one attempt to get it right on the first attempt, it is awful hard to correct mistakes at a later date.  Here it is helpful to be obsessive-compulsive on being verifiably accurate.

I voluntarily took all the substance abuse tests to end that talk.

I hope your attorney asked her to do the same - if she wants to smear your name by innuendo, do the same for her.  You want to keep the playing field level as possible.  If you want to get nasty, and your wife has long hair, you can go back months if not years if you do the more expensive hair test (vs. pee test which is only a snapshot for most drugs for the past few hours except THC which is up to a month).

I think it's good.  Mental health evaluation doesn't scare me.  I don't know what a custody evaluation is though.

It sounds like you got a fair and reasonable initial ruling - your wife might think otherwise.  If the videos are viewed, then it may sway towards you.  Encourage your wife to use her existing therapist too, if possible (as they will be more familiar with the negative aspects); however, if she uses one she hasn't before, she can use her female persuasion to make it look as good as possible, which is not as good for you.


Be mindful, you just crossed the starting line of a multi ironman event.  The 7 P's are now in play - Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance.  Stay focused, even if she offers reconciliation (it may be a distraction) until she actually ends the divorce in writing.  If it isn't in writing, assume that it is not genuine.

Good luck, do your homework, do self-care.  It sounds like a good start, keep the pedal to the metal, and don't let up until you are across the finish line.

Take care.

SD

[ForeverDad]

Ruling came in and I think it's good.  50 50 custody no support from either parent but kids stay in school near me, that was huge I think.

Yes, it is.  During our separation and divorce my ex had both temp custody and majority parenting time.  Everything in her favor.  For two years.  She settled at the last moment on Trial Day for the recommended equal-time Shared Parenting and my sole condition to settle was that I be the residential parent for school purposes.  That prevented her from moving away, even if locally, and me having to follow.  Ha!  Within a couple months the school gave me one day to register our child in my own school district rather than switch at the approaching end of the school year.  He was only in kindergarten and she had caused more scenes.  With me in charge of schooling her school could kick me out, something they couldn't have done if she were still in charge.

While it seems your judge only said the children couldn't be moved from their school, it's close enough for now even if you're not specifically declared to be named residential parent.

He's making us both go through mental health evaluations, so I think that's good.

Yes, that is good.  I always advise our members, usually being alleged as Bad Guys and Bad Gals, to get both spouses or parents evaluated.

Judge also appointed someone to do a custody evaluation?  No clue what that is.

Often a psych eval is ordered but although it is quick it is also very limited.  It doesn't address the parental and parenting aspects.  A custody evaluation is vastly more in-depth.  From a prior post:

We had a court order psych evals early in our case for both of us.  That started as a good thing but I flubbed it.  The risk with such orders is three-fold.  First, if only you get ordered to comply then you are typically seen as the accused and the other as the victim, not good.  You need the other parent to be scrutinized too!  If any order could cast you as the perp or let the other parent avoid being scrutinized, then if at all possible, get any ordered evaluations applied to both of you.  Second, these are only an overview of a person's mental state and don't even try to assess the impact on parenting and the children.  Third, the other spouse may not comply.  That's what happened to me.

During my separation in 2005-2006 we both were ordered to submit to psych evals and provide our results to the court and lawyers.  I complied.  (The quickie eval concluded I had "anxiety".)  Then silence.  Where was then-stbEx's eval?  To this day I still haven't seen it nor do I know whether she even got a psych eval at all...

My conclusion:  Any order, deal or process where both of you have to do something and provide it to the court and lawyers, you cannot risk complying first.  There is real risk the other side will simply not comply and not even be held accountable.  So I advocate this in such situations:  Tell your lawyer you have complied, maybe even provide the results to your lawyer but then instruct your lawyer to hold it (sort of as is done in escrow) until the other party is ready to exchange the results.

What I and my lawyer did was ask for an in-depth Custody Evaluation and fortunately we chose a respected child psychologist as the custody evaluator.  That was important, too many possible evaluators could be rookie lawyers.  Often real experts don't want to bother with complicated cases that could take many months to complete.  Be forewarned that a CE is expensive.  Mine was to be about $3K (others report costs up to and exceeding $20K) but of course my ex claimed she was more comfortable in another language and so there were time delays and additional costs due to her obstructions.

[livednlearned]

Custody evals are (ideally) a way for third-party professionals to shine light on things that are hard to gauge in court, which flies by and is largely he-said, she-said.

If you can, pick the evaluator, or at least take a close look at their credentials. There are a surprising number of incompetent and sometimes harmful people in the mental health profession, especially therapeutic jurisprudence or forensic, psychologists.

When you get good ones, they can change things for the better. Bad ones have done tremendous damage for members here.

Might be a good idea to start a thread about CE and ask people how to prepare and what to expect.

Here's a link to some material about custody/psyche evals on the site.

[mikejones75093]

I appreciate all the help.

School near me was huge.  She just moved yesterday 35 miles away and was trying to get them in School there.  I'm very happy with that.

My attorney is getting all of the info for the custody evaluation.

She was being nice because she needs me to work around her work schedule.   We figured out holiday break and she gave me a fairly decent offer so I took it and I think it's best for the kids.

Overall this was a defeat for her.  I just hope the rest goes good.

[ForeverDad]

A good custody evaluator will do the same things a generic psych eval would do and more, giving focus on how parenting should be accomplished.  Also, there will likely be a few written tests to complete.  One highly respected test is the MMPI-3 —  Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, version 3.

It may be that the expert professional, one well respected by your local court and attorneys, will come to conclusions and recommendations that contrast with the "agreement" you two previously made.  Do what is best for the children, they always take priority if at all possible.

If you can, pick the evaluator, or at least take a close look at their credentials. There are a surprising number of incompetent and sometimes harmful people in the mental health profession, especially therapeutic jurisprudence or forensic, psychologists.

When you get good ones, they can change things for the better. Bad ones have done tremendous damage for members here.

[SaltyDawg]

School near me was huge.  She just moved yesterday 35 miles away and was trying to get them in School there.  I'm very happy with that.

My attorney is getting all of the info for the custody evaluation.

She was being nice because she needs me to work around her work schedule.   We figured out holiday break and she gave me a fairly decent offer so I took it and I think it's best for the kids.

Overall this was a defeat for her.  I just hope the rest goes good.

I hope so too for you.  Go the extra mile in the preparations for each of the upcoming hearing, have all bases covered, so if she throws you a curve ball, you are covered - this will give you the best chance of having a 'good' outcome from your perspective.

She has telegraphed her intent on moving the children to a different school system, so take precautions to prevent that in future hearings.  Request decision maker status.

I'm glad you were able to agree on an arrangement for the holidays.  Remember to keep all communication BIFF from this point forward.

Have a good holiday, be sure to do self-care and recharge.

SD

[mikejones75093]

Found this website shrink4men, wow, it's like they know her.  Talk about eye opening.  Everything from restraining orders to financial abuse, to posting about feeling unsafe, called her whole plan exact down to the words she used.

[kells76]

Hey, hope you and the kids were able to have some good time together at Christmas.

It's interesting you mention this:

Found this website shrink4men, wow, it's like they know her.  Talk about eye opening.  Everything from restraining orders to financial abuse, to posting about feeling unsafe, called her whole plan exact down to the words she used.

Way, way, way back in the day, before I knew about BPD or bpdfamily, I was confused about why my H's kids' mom was so full of blame and was acting so entitled to the kids. I stumbled on the same web site you did, and I had a similar experience: "That's her!", which felt very validating.

We all start somewhere on our journey of understanding BPD, and it's normal to be angry about the RO's, financial abuse, blame shifting, and total lack of care for how the kids are doing. What's important is to keep flowing on that journey, not to get stuck in anger and blame ourselves -- then we're no better than other blamers.

Take a look at our thread about shrink4men's reputation and let us know any thoughts you have.

[mikejones75093]

Hey, hope you and the kids were able to have some good time together at Christmas.

It's interesting you mention this:

Way, way, way back in the day, before I knew about BPD or bpdfamily, I was confused about why my H's kids' mom was so full of blame and was acting so entitled to the kids. I stumbled on the same web site you did, and I had a similar experience: "That's her!", which felt very validating.

We all start somewhere on our journey of understanding BPD, and it's normal to be angry about the RO's, financial abuse, blame shifting, and total lack of care for how the kids are doing. What's important is to keep flowing on that journey, not to get stuck in anger and blame ourselves -- then we're no better than other blamers.

Take a look at our thread about shrink4men's reputation and let us know any thoughts you have.

I'm not really angry, honestly that website helped me get over the anger.

For me it did an amazing job of explaining the why, which made it easier for me to say I need to move forward.

I went no contact and she started reaching out about random things that didn't matter, trying to blame.  I told her to please stop contacting me unless it had to do with the kids, which made her do even more.  Understanding the how and why just made it easier.

Understanding the reasons why she acts the way she does I haven't been getting caught in the middle of her BS.  Maybe it's what I needed to hear.

[SaltyDawg]

Mike Jones,

   Regarding Shrink4Men...

   I agree her videos (You Tube), her website / blog / articles, and Facebook all have been helpful.  On FB she posts Memes just like the neurodivergent community does - she is the only one who does this with these (claimed) credentials.  I find her opinions to be very abrasive and insensitive although quite accurate in 90% of what she says.  I also have used a couple of her articles with my own individual therapist, which was quite helpful.

   If you view some of her videos, she has multiple eye-rolls, and some pretty passive-aggressive statements.   She impulsively speaks her mind with no filter, much like a borderline does and has strongly alluded to emotional if not actual incest in some of her videos.  To me she is like a 'shock jock' of pop psychology and posts stuff intended to shock her intended audience to gain 'clients'.

   I did challenge her on one of her FB posts with push-back on what to do if your pwBPD knows she is messed up and is actively trying to fix the issue.  She asked one question, and then moved on to her next thread.  Much to my surprise, with the one post response, she did invite me to be one of her "top fans" a day later, when I didn't accept, she made the same request a 2nd time a few days later, I did NOT accept either request.

   Since the posting, this compelled me to do a background check, like I do for all mental health professionals I hire for either myself, or my family - I want to know who I am dealing with, and if they have had any disciplinary actions against them.  You would be surprised what you find since  many have their own issues.

   I did find her master's thesis, at a small Catholic school in Erie, PA; however, I was unable to find any PhD references, nor could I find any psychology license in any of the listed states for psychology after doing a quick Internet person finder search.

   Her videos/pics suggest that she hangs out/near NYC, so I searched those too along with NJ, CT, MA and several other states.  Her phone number is MA area code.

[SaltyDawg]

[No edit button, and the preview button is next to the post button, this needs to be fixed.]

So, to summarize, I find the information on Shrink4Men useful; however, I do put it into context against several other resources.  I always verify information from a reliable secondary source.  I have gotten invaluable information from those who are diagnosed as BPD on BPD, and how they think and process information to better understand the condition.  I can accurately predict their behaviors better than I can predict my own behaviors, Ms. T.J.P. has done something similar and has monetized it by appealing to the more primitive/primal emotions of a high conflict relationship.

My impression of Ms. T.J.P. outlook is a one-size-fits-all solution of, "you must get out of that relationship at all costs", even if it means burning all the bridges behind you, which I find more destructive than helpful.

Good luck, use many resources, and weigh them accordingly.  I have found the best advice for your situation in the "Splitting" and related books by Billy Eddy even though S4M/TJP has some nuggets too.

Take care, with self care.

SD

[mikejones75093]

So figure I'll give an update.

Tro temp hearing went decent.  50/50 custody, no child support, kids stay in same school which was huge because she was trying to move them away.

New years day cops show up to my house.  Apparently I don't feed my kids and they need to do a welfare check.   My 8 year old was texting my ex saying I don't feed them and and asking her to uber eats them fast food.  Ex didn't call me or reach out.  Young kids manipulative by nature trying to get fast food instead of eating what I made.  Cop laughed,  said he would not write a report and suggested I tell my lawyer.

I know I'm an idiot.  Kids start school ex asks to stay over to be near the kids and it turns into we are working it out.  I know she's going to cycle but she was so nice I went with it.  Lasted all of 4 weeks.  I'm a terrible person controlling and manipulative,  she leaves, goes complete no contact on me.  Tells her attorney she doesn't want the kids,  doesn't want any money, just give me everything and end it.  Her attorney calls mine and they are drawing up the paperwork, that lasted a week.  Now she wants her 50/50 custody.   That was Monday.

Kids come home from school today and tell me they got sent to the principals office but were not in trouble.  Someone with a badge wanted to talk to them about me and my driving problem.

This is just nuts.   Her ups and downs are getting worse.

[mikejones75093]

Tried to edit the post but couldn't figure it out.  It's drinking problem,  not driving.

[SaltyDawg]

DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT

with video, with audio, keeping all correspondence, and notes in a bound book or e-mailed to/from one of the free services like gmail/outlook(hotmail) as they are built to criminal standards for tracking date/time stamps and evidence tampering.

She is going into the realm of false accusations with two CPS visits, bad driving, you don't feed them, etc. so you need to do everything in your power to document how emtionally unstable ('crazy') she really is.

Hopefully her attorney's can see how 'crazy' she actually is and can work out an agreeable agreement with yours, have it ready, set, go; and when the iron is hot for her to sign it, get it sign, sealed, and delivered to you. - wishful thinking on my part.

Follow the advice of Bill Eddy's book in addition to your own attorney's - if there is a difference talk to your attorney until you are satisfied with your attorney's explanation or ask him to include a certain thing.

Take care, watch your back, as you are now her very malicious target of blame, and if you aren't careful, you will find one of her proverbial knives stuck in it.

SD

[Skip]

DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT

She is going into the realm of false accusations with two CPS visits, bad driving, you don't feed them, etc. so you need to do everything in your power to document how emtionally unstable ('crazy') she really is.

You do want to document bad behavior that is significant - don't bother with the the small things - nobody is going to care and it just dilutes the significant things. Ask your attorney what things matters to this judge.

There is another type of documentation that is important... the caring parenting of your children. Keep a diary and a photo journal of your parenting. Meals, events, Dr. appointments. get involved in their school activities.

Take a co-parenting class. If you've stopped drinking, you can get a breathalyzer service and it keeps evidentiary records on blood alcohol levels. A year costs about 2 hours of your attorney.

Don't over focus on her.

Document reasonable communications from you, with her. You can sign up with myfamily wizard (for the two of you) and communicate/coordinate co-parenting with her via this website. Courts accept those records.

Take a co-parenting class. Get off of Shrink for Men - that's just stoking the feeling of victimization. TP got started in this because her SO was divorced from a BPD. Step-coparents can be over-the-top resentful. We've seen that here.

Join a men's parenting group instead.

You're at 50/50. That's good. Keeping it is not all about proving that she ihass the issues. Prove that you are an exemplary dad.

First thing he said is, because you 2 adults can't figure this out now I have to deal with it.  

Read the room  

[EyesUp]

This:

You do want to document bad behavior that is significant - don't bother with the the small things - nobody is going to care and it just dilutes the significant things. Ask your attorney what things matters to this judge.

There is another type of documentation that is important... the caring parenting of your children. Keep a diary and a photo journal of your parenting. Meals, events, Dr. appointments. get involved in their school activities.

And this:

You're at 50/50. That's good. Keeping it is not all about proving that she ihass the issues. Prove that you are an exemplary dad.

Read the room  

Skip's post could be repackaged as "Divorcing your Disordered Spouse for Dummies" - When I was going through this, I had to read about a half of a dozen books and then boil it all down to get this.  What you have in these two comments is gold.

What I did:
Used an app called Evernote for journaling. Daily, concise entries.
Used Excel to track activities.  Again, super concise.
Used a separate Excel sheet to log past activities:
- extra curriculars
- doctor appointments
- school - teacher meetings, concerts, events, picnics
- kids' social stuff

All password protected, and addressed to my attorney.

My X was going for primary parent, the works, in a contested divorce.  She stated that she was the primary parent, that I traveled constantly for work, and was a non-participant in the kids' lives. 

The documentation made it easy to show my atty that my X's claims were false.  In turn, my atty was able to communicate to my X's atty - with great conviction - that our judge would not be impressed my X's claims.

Doing the documentation legwork helped to earn my atty's confidence. Ultimately, we settled and avoided prolonged/costly litigation.

My $0.02 - the documentation is necessary if you litigate - but might actually help you avoid the litigation. 

Don't tip your hand to your X re: documentation - treat it like a secret weapon. It's presently unclear how or when you will need to use this documentation.  But it's perfectly clear that it will be a benefit to have the documentation.

Final word to reinforce "concise" - write everything as if you're preparing to present it to the judge.  The busy, indifferent, inconvenienced, and perhaps slightly impatient judge...

Anything you can do now, to organize the documentation into a clear, concise format that can be easily scanned by a busy judge will be helpful.

The idea is:  If you ever have to present a journal or log, make it super easy to for the judge to, at a glance, conclude:  "If this is accurate, then clearly Mike is involved in the kids' activities."

Worst case, the judge passes you off to a GAL or some other evaluator - who may also want to review your documentation.

Medium case, the judge finds your documentation credible and moves forward.

Best case, your atty makes it clear to your stbx's atty that her claims are false, if not highly exaggerated - and that it's in her best interest to settle and avoid being embarrassed/exposed/rebuked in court.  Then use the next hearing to present the proposed settlement. 

The judge will be delighted to see that the two adults are working it out.

Hang in there. 

[mikejones75093]

DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT

with video, with audio, keeping all correspondence, and notes in a bound book or e-mailed to/from one of the free services like gmail/outlook(hotmail) as they are built to criminal standards for tracking date/time stamps and evidence tampering.

She is going into the realm of false accusations with two CPS visits, bad driving, you don't feed them, etc. so you need to do everything in your power to document how emtionally unstable ('crazy') she really is.

Hopefully her attorney's can see how 'crazy' she actually is and can work out an agreeable agreement with yours, have it ready, set, go; and when the iron is hot for her to sign it, get it sign, sealed, and delivered to you. - wishful thinking on my part.

Follow the advice of Bill Eddy's book in addition to your own attorney's - if there is a difference talk to your attorney until you are satisfied with your attorney's explanation or ask him to include a certain thing.

Take care, watch your back, as you are now her very malicious target of blame, and if you aren't careful, you will find one of her proverbial knives stuck in it.

SD

My attorney seems very competent,  very expensive so this sucks.

I was hoping when she said take everything we would get it done but she cycled quick.

I'm documenting everything, and I also have a large support network of family and friends that I'm always around, she has nobody.

Judge didn't order any alcohol monitoring but I voluntarily paid to be peth tested and about to do it again.

Hoping maybe the next time she cycles down we can send the decree over and get it signed.

Her attorney has to know she's crazy right?  Constantly at war with blaming, yet has no supporting documentation.

She cop that came by for the welfare check thought it was a joke, told me to get an attorney if I didn't have one, and did not fill out a report to give them anything.

She's just nuts

[SaltyDawg]

I'm documenting everything, and I also have a large support network of family and friends that I'm always around, she has nobody.

Judge didn't order any alcohol monitoring but I voluntarily paid to be peth tested and about to do it again.

Hoping maybe the next time she cycles down we can send the decree over and get it signed.

Her attorney has to know she's crazy right?  Constantly at war with blaming, yet has no supporting documentation.

[...]

She's just nuts

Being mindful I have not yet experienced a divorce; however, I am preparing for one if it comes to that, I think incorporating both Skip's & Eyes Up's suggestions would be beneficial to you as they are speaking from experience, I am not.  Perhaps a hybrid where you have sticky arrows pointing to the really bad and nutty stuff she is doing.

Personally I would focus on alienating behaviors, false allegations, and all of the activities you do with your children to show how good of a dad you are using BIFF style entries:

1430 Picked child 1 up from school
1445 Brought child 1 to pediatrician appointment
1534 Arranged playdate for child 1 w/ child friend name
1712 Transported children from playdate home
1730 Prepared & ate meal together
xxxx etc.

2230 ex violated TRO, pounded on door, accusing me of child abuse 911 called in response
2243 first unit arrived, approached enraged wife outside of home
2244 2nd unit arrived, opened door for 2nd unit, commenced interview
2244 Asked child 1 to go inside, and wait reading a book/device/etc.
....
0027 Last unit leaves, close and lock door, comfort child 2, make sure child 1 is sleeping peacefully.

When 911 is called, document time of arrival, behaviors, time of arrest, time of departure, when authorities are involved document everything, video if you can, otherwise it will be he said/she said.  Also note key points of all conversations, use recording device if points are hazy, make sure what you write matches recording devices, the police have body cams for this very reason.

I have homeland security experience, and have been involved in 'other' incidents, and this is the type of entries they are looking for in a high conflict situation.  Have an arrow on all incidents involving any enforcement agency.  Be on best behavior at all times, as anything bad recorded can and will be used against you.

Good luck & Take Care

[ForeverDad]

New years day cops show up to my house..  Cop laughed, said he would not write a report and suggested I tell my lawyer.

Am I missing something here?  Cop agreed the call handed to him had no basis, yet he didn't want to document it in a report?  Why wouldn't you have asked him to write a report?

What benefit is a police report, assuming it would be favorable for you?  The reality is that police, counselors, children's services, school, etc are typically viewed as neutral professionals, with concern for the children's best interests.  By default they're trusted by the court.  You?  You're just one of the parents and the first inclination of the court is that you're untrained, unlicensed, an amateur, likely to spout unsupported claims (hearsay).

All I'm saying is that this might have been a golden opportunity to get a report stating that your kids really are getting fed well, or at least decently.  Ask your lawyer about this.  I hope you at least got the officer's name or number, if needed later.

I recall at least one time when my ex was playing games with an exchange and an officer responded... I asked for a report.  Another time when an officer was at my home when ex contested my position on a failed exchange.  I followed up to get the report, it was abysmal, there were check marks in the "responded" and "resolved" columns.  It was basically meaningless.

[mikejones75093]

Am I missing something here?  Cop agreed the call handed to him had no basis, yet he didn't want to document it in a report?  Why wouldn't you have asked him to write a report?

What benefit is a police report, assuming it would be favorable for you?  The reality is that police, counselors, children's services, school, etc are typically viewed as neutral professionals, with concern for the children's best interests.  By default they're trusted by the court.  You?  You're just one of the parents and the first inclination of the court is that you're untrained, unlicensed, an amateur, likely to spout unsupported claims (hearsay).

All I'm saying is that this might have been a golden opportunity to get a report stating that your kids really are getting fed well, or at least decently.  Ask your lawyer about this.  I hope you at least got the officer's name or number, if needed later.

I recall at least one time when my ex was playing games with an exchange and an officer responded... I asked for a report.  Another time when an officer was at my home when ex contested my position on a failed exchange.  I followed up to get the report, it was abysmal, there were check marks in the "responded" and "resolved" columns.  It was basically meaningless.

Cop was making it out like a report would be good for them.   He did have to log the call, which I requested a copy from freedom of information act,  cops suggestion, and he basically updated the call saying no issue kids happy and healthy.

On another note I went through my daughter's phone for the first time.   My estranged spouse got her the phone for Christmas.   The alienation is real.  I don't think my daughter likes me or my family.  Nothing but talking bad about us to my spouse and her supporting those feelings.   The things she says sound just like my spouse.  Going to have to figure this out.  Daughter is innocent but I have to break this and have no clue what to say.

[Notwendy]

This is a boundary issue. It's also Karpman triangle dynamics. She's made your D her confidant and triangulating. My BPD mother did that too when I was a teen- say things one shouldn't be sharing with a teen. I

It's hard to know if your wife's intent is to harm you or to just make herself feel better but either way- this isn't an appropriate discussion with a teen.

What I can recall is that it did give me a sense of adulthood as a teen and teens want to have that "adulthood" but it's actually parentification. Teens also get angry at their parents and at times don't like their parents- but ideally parents are aligned and don't triangulate- so the teen can be angry-but at both of them.

Parental alienation is a serious situation. I don't know much about that but I do know that whatever BPD mother said to me about my father didn't turn me against him.

IMHO, I would not tell your D you went through her phone. I think she'd be very angry about that. She may have been venting to your wife in the moment. She may not "like" you in the moment. Teens can be like that. Focus on consistency and trust with her- try to do things together if she will do that- connect with her interests if you can. Whatever she is feeling in the moment- let her know you love her unconditionally. She's seen your behavior and also her BPD mother's behavior- she may not understand it well at her age.

[SaltyDawg]

On another note I went through my daughter's phone for the first time.   My estranged spouse got her the phone for Christmas.   The alienation is real.  I don't think my daughter likes me or my family.  Nothing but talking bad about us to my spouse and her supporting those feelings.   The things she says sound just like my spouse.  Going to have to figure this out.  Daughter is innocent but I have to break this and have no clue what to say.

Document the alienation.  If you can, take photos where your wife is disparaging you towards your daughter.  Document it all, but only keep the 3 worst for your attorney to share with the court as you want to limit costs, and you will have more examples, if you are asked.

[EyesUp]

IMHO, I would not tell your D you went through her phone. I think she'd be very angry about that. She may have been venting to your wife in the moment. She may not "like" you in the moment. Teens can be like that. Focus on consistency and trust with her- try to do things together if she will do that- connect with her interests if you can. Whatever she is feeling in the moment- let her know you love her unconditionally. She's seen your behavior and also her BPD mother's behavior- she may not understand it well at her age.

This is super key.

I have the same dynamic with my uBPDxw - the parentification and now alienation had been picking up steam, but the thing that really kicked the alienation into high gear was my daughter found out that I looked through her phone.  And I actually provided the phone, pay for the plan, and have a device agreement with my daughter that specifically states that mom and dad have access to her phone.  She still felt completely betrayed.

I don't have any prescriptive suggestions here, other than be very, very careful with what and how you speak with your daughter about this - if at all.  Also, expect that if you broach the topic with her mother, it will be conveyed to your daughter.

Unfortunately this is a situation where it's easier to say what not to do than what to do.

[mikejones75093]

This is a boundary issue. It's also Karpman triangle dynamics. She's made your D her confidant and triangulating. My BPD mother did that too when I was a teen- say things one shouldn't be sharing with a teen. I

It's hard to know if your wife's intent is to harm you or to just make herself feel better but either way- this isn't an appropriate discussion with a teen.

What I can recall is that it did give me a sense of adulthood as a teen and teens want to have that "adulthood" but it's actually parentification. Teens also get angry at their parents and at times don't like their parents- but ideally parents are aligned and don't triangulate- so the teen can be angry-but at both of them.

Parental alienation is a serious situation. I don't know much about that but I do know that whatever BPD mother said to me about my father didn't turn me against him.

IMHO, I would not tell your D you went through her phone. I think she'd be very angry about that. She may have been venting to your wife in the moment. She may not "like" you in the moment. Teens can be like that. Focus on consistency and trust with her- try to do things together if she will do that- connect with her interests if you can. Whatever she is feeling in the moment- let her know you love her unconditionally. She's seen your behavior and also her BPD mother's behavior- she may not understand it well at her age.

Well I already went through her phone and told her.  Let her know it's not her fault and that we all lover.

When she's with me she is constantly texting with her mom so I decided it's time to limit.  If she's away and needs a phone great but at home 30 minutes then put it down.  My D was recording me and sending it to my ex thinking she was helping her mom.  I was just telling my son he needs to clean his room or no video games,  told him if he acts like a baby he will be treated as one.  She thinks I caused this divorce because I'm a substance abuser, I'm not, that's my ex bs allegations.  It sucks.  Going to see my counselor on Monday and talk to her about getting my daughter in.

[mikejones75093]

Document the alienation.  If you can, take photos where your wife is disparaging you towards your daughter.  Document it all, but only keep the 3 worst for your attorney to share with the court as you want to limit costs, and you will have more examples, if you are asked.

I did.  I don't really know how bad it is, but it upsets me.

Ex told D she doesn't trust me and never will, D agreed.  All because we didn't have time to drive by ex house and pick up an Amazon package.

Told my D she doesn't want to be around my family so not to invite them to her sporting events.   D agreed then got upset when her grandfather told her he'd love to come watch her play.

Told D that I don't understand that when I'm mean to my ex she doesn't want to be around me.

Ex told D hangout with people that don't hold me accountable and pat me on the back.  D then called me a grumpy old man that does doesn't want to be around .

Makes me sound completely horrible.  All of this because I asked her to clean her room or told her we weren't eating fast food.  Just a damn joke.  Funny because ex doesn't talk to any of her family, her older child included.  I have a big family and we all do things together, she said we are a bunch of narcissists and gas lighters in denial.

[Skip]

Makes me sound completely horrible.  All of this because I asked her to clean her room or told her we weren't eating fast food.  Just a damn joke.  Funny because ex doesn't talk to any of her family...

mikejones, you aren't going to like me saying this, but I have your best interests at heart.

You have to man up.

Now.

For the kids.

No more drama.

No matter how well deserved, your resentment will not serve you well.

Imagine you had a family puppy, and you let it outside, and a car ran it over, and it was holding onto life. Kids would be devastated and want more than anything to save that puppy.

Well, your kids are in that hell right now. Their whole has crumbled, and the two people they love and trust the most are in conflict and they have no idea how to navigate any of this. Mom's a sympathetic puppy right not because she's been pushed out of the house and the kids are worried for her.

You've got to attend to their needs. Now is not the time to teach them chores and responsibility or be strict. Now is the time tobe relaxed and understanding and help them through the worst time of their life. Giving them some liberties is OK - there will be plenty of time to tighten things up later.

You wouldn't disparage or kick the puppy - don't disparage or kick their mom.

Call a therapist and get in there and get some advice on what you need to be doing and not doing.

You are blessed, man. I have not seen another man on this site keep the house and get 50/50 visitation in temporary orders. You hold all the cards. You have a clear path to surviving/thriving this divorce, but you can blow this advantage.

You'll kick yourself for decades if you do 

[ForeverDad]

I've scanned my posts on your topic and noticed there is one important aspect I didn't mention.  Your children, especially if already caught it an alienation web, need help, far more than you can do alone.

May I suggest a very timely and important aid for your children?  Counseling.  I'm not talking about for the parents, while it's too late for couple's therapy, individual counseling couldn't hurt.  I'm talking about counseling for the children.

Would your stbEx oppose the children having counseling?  Here are a few pointers:

• Give a heads up to the school counselors so they can begin a dialogue and monitor the children's needs.
• My lawyer always exclaimed, "Courts love counseling!"  If your spouse is likely to oppose then include a request of counseling for the children.  Courts very likely will order it even if one parent opposes the concept.
• Do more than just request counseling, use a strategy that has worked well for us here.  Build a list of recommended and respected children's counselors.  Then present the list at the right time to the court and allow the ex to pick from your vetted list.  (1) Court will like it since it shows you're willing to involve both parents in the selection.  (2) You will be happy since your ex's predictable inclination, if she was choosing counselors, would be to pick inexperienced, biased or gullible counselors to be ex's negative advocates.  Instead she would be limited to your short list of vetted counselors.

If you haven't already requested counseling for the children, then work with your lawyer to make it happen.

[SaltyDawg]

Mike,

   I am not going through a divorce, and my wife and I are supposedly working towards reconciling, and our D17 has a lot of similar type conversations with me and my BPDw.  I feel a a lot of what you shared is normal behavior for a teenage daughter.  I will draw some parallels to my own situation on how our D17 treats both me and my wife when our D has nearly identical feelings and how I handle it differently, by example.

Ex told D she doesn't trust me and never will, D agreed.  All because we didn't have time to drive by ex house and pick up an Amazon package.

My wife has shared that directly with me, within earshot of our D17, that she 'doesn't trust me,' and I explain, it was through my wife's actions that I behaved that way where I set aside a divorce attorney retainer fee in response to her divorce threats, and my wife tells me she cannot trust me because I squirreled away $5k in cash by not depositing extra overtime I did, so my wife didn't notice it.  While not specifically directed to DD, I did not consider this to be overtly disparaging, as my wife was expressing her feeling of not trusting me.  I can see how my wife feels this way. 

Told my D she doesn't want to be around my family so not to invite them to her sporting events.   D agreed then got upset when her grandfather told her he'd love to come watch her play.

Our D doesn't like the way my wife and I are, and she finds us to be an embarrassment, and has isolated both me and my wife from her school performances and academic achievements which in turn also isolated her grandparents too, our DD was a bit upset when she learned the grandparents were upset too from this isolation.  My wife and I jointly parented her and expressed that we want to be there when she does these things.  DD has also threatened to go full no contact when she turns 18 as that is what her T likely communicated with her a few years ago.

Told D that I don't understand that when I'm mean to my ex she doesn't want to be around me.

Both my wife and I do this to each other when my wife becomes dysregulated, and I in turn grey rock my wife, and then my wife will give me the cold shoulder in return.  Our D thinks she is better than that and in turn isolates herself from both of us.  Yes, it is dysfunctional, I understand our D's behavior, my wife is trying to understand.

Ex told D hangout with people that don't hold me accountable and pat me on the back.  D then called me a grumpy old man that does doesn't want to be around .

D17 recently called my wife "grumpy mommy" in the past week around a boundary we are enforcing for bf16, the word "grumpy" really stuck out for me, as it is an accurate term on how our daughter feels about my wife, as our D17 wants to hangout with bf16 more than she does with either one of her parents.  D17 is 'spreading her wings', as she will be leaving the nest in a little over a year to go to college as a junior (she is in early college now getting an AA degree simultaneously with her HS  diploma).

Makes me sound completely horrible.  All of this because I asked her to clean her room or told her we weren't eating fast food.  Just a damn joke.  Funny because ex doesn't talk to any of her family, her older child included.  I have a big family and we all do things together, she said we are a bunch of narcissists and gas lighters in denial.

Our D makes both my wife and me sound completely horrible on the way our D describes us to her bf, and her bf makes his divorced mom sound the same way who has nearly identical behaviors, on a worse scale than my wife.  I feel that our D17 has attracted a BF in the same dynamic she is in.  Both our D17 and her BF16, are academically overachieving parentified caretaking children who are both extremely good kids (Strait A's and leaders among their peers), with some messed up parenting on each side.  I do give extra accommodation to our daughter because of the behaviors of my wife, and my reactive behaviors towards my wife.

If my wife loses her temper on DD, my DD does come and vents to me about this behavior, I do not disparage, but explain in an 'age' appropriate manner (example: 2 para. below).  Both my DD and her BF16 are codependent due to the respective parent behaviors, and they emotionally support each other.  While not ideal, it is 'good enough' parenting.

I can see subtle alienation in your dynamic, as it is not as overt.  Likewise, both my wife and I have has lashed out at me, and I defend myself, and then grey rock if it goes out of control - this is behavior I model, and in turn our D17 has caught on and does the same thing to my wife, and occasionally me too when we try to parent her.  It is a toxic dynamic.  My wife sees it, and I see it, our D17 sees it (S12 is oblivious) I talk about it in my individual therapy, and also our couple's therapy on a regular basis, comes up at least once every other session.  It is very difficult for a dad to navigate a relationship with a teenage girl when their parents are not on the best of terms.

I have always explained to my D17 that mom has 'issues' that she is aware of and is working on them in therapy.  If D17 points out stuff on me, I own it, and tell her 'I have issues too, and am working on myself in therapy'.  Our D17 probably has had more therapy than both of us combined, but currently rejects therapy for the past few years and prefers her own narrative which is usually pretty spot on.

Family relationships when one or more people have 'issues' are very difficult, and one needs to navigate it with the intent to minimize the emotional damage to the children first and foremost, and then minimize it to the spouse secondarily.  I will not intentionally contribute in a negative way, and if it is pointed out to me (usually a back-handed reactive comment under my breath), I will own my 'stuff' and take corrective action.  I will take the high road, and not consciously disparage my wife, even though she does with me.  It is incredibly hard not to be reactive to this.  I will also explain in 'age appropriate' language when either one of our children comes up to me and talks about this, or if I see them upset, often in tears on what my wife has done.  I do not hover/helicopter, nor am I a stand-off - it is a very delicate balance parenting children in a dysfunctional relationship and you can only do the best you can under the circumstances you are given.

I  have to remind myself, I chose to be in a relationship with my wife and both of our children did NOT choose to be in a relationship with us.  I have to own my relationship with my wife no matter how contentious it is, and try through leadership by example, to make the best out of bad situation. 

I feel the best thing for the children is to get out of the house, and have them interact with their peers, if it is organized/unorganized sports, video games, play dates, real dates (with firm boundaries), after school activities, etc.  Minimize the time in a toxic environment, encourage good behaviors, and discourage bad ones.  I know I am tempted to badmouth my wife; however, I pretty much only do it here on this website, where I can vent.  BPD Family is my safe space to do this interactively.  I can do it at anonymous meetings, but there are no-crosstalk rules, so these are not interactive and limited to a few minutes.

This is my side that I show our children, our extended families, our friends and acquaintances.  The other side of the coin, and it feels like I am forcing myself to be two-faced, with extreme segregation, I also document, take copious notes, and highlight issues in front of the couple's therapist in a private setting.  In essence "Hope/Pray/Strive for the Best; but, plan for the worst".  I am not where you are at.  However, I am not blind to the possibility that I may eventually be in your shoes one day - I hope not, but if I am, I want to be prepared for it, by planning for it.

I would suggest focusing on your D15's feelings, and validate her feelings without disparaging your stbx in front of your daughters.  Instead focus on the positives, and attempt to make the extra effort to accommodate your daughters (if it is inconvenient to go out of your way to pick up an Amazon package, it will mean a lot to your D).  I do this for my D, and she appreciates every bit of it.

Also document, only share here and with your attorney, but do not make this known to your wife, or any of your children as you want to minimize the emotional damage.  If you are like me you will feel two-faced doing so; however, as you want the best outcome for the situation, you need to do what needs to be done.

Definitely get your kids into family therapy, ideally with neither one of the parents present and move forward from there (no pretext for additional alienation).  I do know my children had a 'pact' together and they supported each other emotionally without either parent present before I started my emotional leadership role some 18 months ago as they felt unsupported by me in addition to the rages my wife had.  The kids have a front row seat to the dysfunction, they may talk amongst themselves like mine do, and it is best to have a therapist guiding them through this turmoil. 

I am sharing, as I feel there is a very similar teenage parent-daughter dynamic going on here, and how I am handling it differently within the context of what Skip shared, of not kicking the puppy, by try to help the puppy instead.

Also, to take the necessary precautions to protect what you have behind the scenes, and make certain compromises to ensure your children feel loved, and are not used as pawns in the battle between mom and dad.  Also be a parent with boundaries; however, also consider making 'token' concessions from time to time on things your children want, so they feel like you acknowledge and take their feelings into consideration.

Every situation is different, try to make the best out of a bad situation.

Be sure to do self-care in this time of extreme stress.

Take care.

SD

[mikejones75093]

Let me ask this.

Is there anyway to get her to reasonably settle?

Now she wants to go to trial and hire a forensic accountant to find my hidden money.

Well there is none.  After calling the cops, cps, now wants a forensic accountant, she is throwing all kinds of junk against the wall thay won't stick.  It's going to cost us another $100k to get this all done for nothing.   We will both be broke in our mod 40s and the attorneys get paid.

How do you talk sense into her to just settle and move on.  Will be much better to not spend $100k in fees. 

On another note she has her counselor and friends convinced I'm a narcissist.  I went to my counselor and asked if I was one, and was told no.  She said when you first came in here you took all the blame for your passive aggressive behavior that triggered her, and tried to turn it all around.  A narcissist wouldn't do that.   Made me feel a little better.

[ForeverDad]

I recently posted in one of our library boards about a clinical psychologist and author, Doctor Ramani, who has posted an extensive number of videos on the topic of Narcissists.  My relatives brought them to my attention.

About her claims... one of our members once wrote that he knew when his ex was lying - when she opened her mouth.   Eventually the court system will conclude that too.  (How quickly the court system will note that and how much they change their approach is another topic altogether.)

Be aware of what is and what is not marital money.  Did you know that inheritances, if kept in a separate account in your name and not disbursed into marital accounts or marital assets, is still your personal money?

[kells76]

Is there anyway to get her to reasonably settle?

Now she wants to go to trial and hire a forensic accountant to find my hidden money.

Well there is none.  After calling the cops, cps, now wants a forensic accountant, she is throwing all kinds of junk against the wall thay won't stick.  It's going to cost us another $100k to get this all done for nothing.   We will both be broke in our mod 40s and the attorneys get paid.

How do you talk sense into her to just settle and move on.  Will be much better to not spend $100k in fees. 

What's her "currency"? What's important to her? Is it:

-feeling like she got something from you that was important to you
-appearing like a great mom to others
-"winning" certain holidays for parenting time
-being seen as "the expert"
-just plain money
-???

You know her best -- what does she value? Use that as leverage for negotiating. "Look... you know what, yeah, I do have $500 cash in my safe deposit box. If you sign off on Document X I'll go 50/50 with you on it. OK, OK, you're right, you deserve more. How about 75/25 if you sign Document X and Document Y?"

Keep it transactional. If you haven't been able to work stuff out in the marriage, then now -- in the middle of a divorce -- is not the time where you will suddenly discover how to talk sense into her. Not blaming -- more being realistic.

Keep it transactional, keep it focused on you getting what's good for the kids while she feels like she's "winning", keep it focused on long term outcomes for the kids, not on short term frustrations.

And no matter what she says she's going to do -- no matter if she swears up and down that it's "trial or nothing" -- have something ready for her to sign on the courthouse steps, as it were. Plan for the worst, but don't take that as written in stone. She may have second thoughts walking into the courtroom -- be prepared for that possibility with stuff to sign then and there.

On another note she has her counselor and friends convinced I'm a narcissist.  I went to my counselor and asked if I was one, and was told no.  She said when you first came in here you took all the blame for your passive aggressive behavior that triggered her, and tried to turn it all around.  A narcissist wouldn't do that.   Made me feel a little better.

Did her counselor tell you that personally?  I hope you know where I'm going with this...

Don't give that the time of day; it's a distraction from long term outcomes. She's going to say a lot... let it slide, focus on the kids, focus on negotiating for outcomes.

[Skip]

It's explained pretty clear we aren't supposed to remove or transfer personal property fixtures or furnishings.

You should have a list made of the items, and have your attorney send it to her attorney as party of the discovery. It will be put on her side of the balance sheet.

After calling the cops, cps, now wants a forensic accountant, she is throwing all kinds of junk against the wall thay won't stick.

Some attorneys like to amp up the fight for fees. Some girlfriends like to amp up the fight to avebge their own feeling of injustice. Welcome to family court.

On another note she has her counselor and friends convinced I'm a narcissist.  I went to my counselor and asked if I was one, and was told no.  She said when you first came in here you took all the blame for your passive aggressive behavior that triggered her, and tried to turn it all around.  A narcissist wouldn't do that.   Made me feel a little better.

This is drama. None of this matters. Avoid the temptation to be moved by it.

Let me ask this.

Is there anyway to get her to reasonably settle?

Yes. Respond to their discovery requests as quickly as you can. Don't delay.

Now she wants to go to trial and hire a forensic accountant to find my hidden money.

Forensic accountants are typically employed on either high value estates or estates that have assets that need to be valued.  It's an expert witness cost. It won't be $100,000. If you have a simple estate, it will be under $10K

Don't be baited by the drama. Drama favors her case. Deligence and maturity favor yours.

[mikejones75093]

Well everytime we go to court it's $15k approximately for each attorney.

She called today, she said she is filing more requests for restraining orders real soon.  Didn't say for what.  I'm sure it's for drug and alcohol abuse.  I don't do either.  I have been voluntarily taking alcohol tests in secret,  but when we tried to work it out a few weeks ago I stopped.  About to go take another alcohol test and the most extreme  drug test offered.  This sucks.  Scares the hell out of me.  She only has her word, so I'm hoping the judge doesn't buy in.

[GaGrl]

You aren't responsible for her hiring of a forensic accountant. Have your lawyer submit an a treatment that all financial records have been submitted for discovery, along with a petition that further "intrusions" in to financial records are harassment and done only at her cost.

[EyesUp]

Mike,

Here's what I did:

- I recognized that the attys loved to have sidebars and report back and bill for this time
- So I took control of the process and told my atty no comms without an agenda, a strategy, a defined target outcome.  You need to take control of the process - you are the CEO of your divorce, your atty works for you.  You need to explicitly tell your atty what you want them to accomplish, and to propose a plan for you to approve to make it happen
- I thought long and hard about what mattered to my uBPDxw...  money, prestige, image, and the kids (or at least control of the kids)
- My uBPDxw filed for a contested divorce in which she would be primary parent (i.e., the main conflict would be custody), so I thought long and hard about how far she'd be able to take the case without significant financial support from her family (answer: not too far...)
- I proposed division of assets in which my uBPDxw would have a net benefit (i.e., not 50-50, but more like 65-35 in her favor.  Rejecting the offer would be unreasonable
- I proposed a 50-50 parenting plan that included splitting the winter school break in a way that ensures the kids are with her on xmas day, even in years in which xmas would not fall during her regular parenting time.  Again, this was meaningful to her, advantageous to her, and she'd be unreasonable not to accept - I understood that I would still see the kids, give them presents, and celebrate with them - with or without seeing on the xmas day.  And I do.
- In parallel, I documented for my atty all the things I did and continued to do for the kids that would counter my uBPDxw's unreasonable claims that I was not involved in the kids' lives.  The existence of a detailed and meticulous journal that showed I was at most pediatrician appointments, parent-teacher conferences, school events, extra curriculars, etc., etc., put my atty in position to confidently tell my uBPDxw's atty that her claims would not hold up and they would look foolish in front of the judge...

It's a cliche, but my uBPDxw accepted terms, and settled at the courthouse immediately prior to our first pre-trial hearing.

Summary:

- build your case yourself - don't expect your atty to believe everything you say or create a strategy for you, if you cannot effectively be your own advocate
- give your atty concise outcome-based instructions
- limit your atty's ability to act (spend billable time) without your explicit pre-authorization
- carefully consider your stbx's resources and how far she's able to go (her atty is probably telling her that you'll be on the hook for her fees - discuss this with your atty and figure out how to put that idea to rest for your stbx ASAP)
- carefully consider your stbx's motivations beyond "winning" - specifically, what can you trade that is of more value to her than to you?  how can you create the appearance of a win for her without really giving up all that much in time or $$$?

Glad to go into further detail, but the moral of the story is:  You cannot control your stbx's behavior or emotional responses.  However - you should be able to at least influence if not control your atty - they work for you.  And together with your atty, you should be able to create a strategy to guide this process.

[mikejones75093]

Mike,

Here's what I did:

- I recognized that the attys loved to have sidebars and report back and bill for this time
- So I took control of the process and told my atty no comms without an agenda, a strategy, a defined target outcome.  You need to take control of the process - you are the CEO of your divorce, your atty works for you.  You need to explicitly tell your atty what you want them to accomplish, and to propose a plan for you to approve to make it happen
- I thought long and hard about what mattered to my uBPDxw...  money, prestige, image, and the kids (or at least control of the kids)
- My uBPDxw filed for a contested divorce in which she would be primary parent (i.e., the main conflict would be custody), so I thought long and hard about how far she'd be able to take the case without significant financial support from her family (answer: not too far...)
- I proposed division of assets in which my uBPDxw would have a net benefit (i.e., not 50-50, but more like 65-35 in her favor.  Rejecting the offer would be unreasonable
- I proposed a 50-50 parenting plan that included splitting the winter school break in a way that ensures the kids are with her on xmas day, even in years in which xmas would not fall during her regular parenting time.  Again, this was meaningful to her, advantageous to her, and she'd be unreasonable not to accept - I understood that I would still see the kids, give them presents, and celebrate with them - with or without seeing on the xmas day.  And I do.
- In parallel, I documented for my atty all the things I did and continued to do for the kids that would counter my uBPDxw's unreasonable claims that I was not involved in the kids' lives.  The existence of a detailed and meticulous journal that showed I was at most pediatrician appointments, parent-teacher conferences, school events, extra curriculars, etc., etc., put my atty in position to confidently tell my uBPDxw's atty that her claims would not hold up and they would look foolish in front of the judge...

It's a cliche, but my uBPDxw accepted terms, and settled at the courthouse immediately prior to our first pre-trial hearing.

Summary:

- build your case yourself - don't expect your atty to believe everything you say or create a strategy for you, if you cannot effectively be your own advocate
- give your atty concise outcome-based instructions
- limit your atty's ability to act (spend billable time) without your explicit pre-authorization
- carefully consider your stbx's resources and how far she's able to go (her atty is probably telling her that you'll be on the hook for her fees - discuss this with your atty and figure out how to put that idea to rest for your stbx ASAP)
- carefully consider your stbx's motivations beyond "winning" - specifically, what can you trade that is of more value to her than to you?  how can you create the appearance of a win for her without really giving up all that much in time or $$$?

Glad to go into further detail, but the moral of the story is:  You cannot control your stbx's behavior or emotional responses.  However - you should be able to at least influence if not control your atty - they work for you.  And together with your atty, you should be able to create a strategy to guide this process.

I'd love to go into more detail.  I think I kind of made a strategy and gave my attorney direction yesterday. 

I put together an offer that is more than fair and asked her to present it.  Issue is, I think she will say no.  She is dead set on being the "primary" parent and wants to move the kids and change their school, that is not ok with me.  I said she is primary parent, kids stay in current school district, bind to county, 50/50 custody and offered her a fair amount of money.  If she says no I told my attorney to change it to an at fault divorce and scare the PLEASE READ out of her for parental alienation and harassment against me, put her on standard possession and cover my attorney fees and her wasted spending for the witch hunt against me. 
If you have something better I would love to hear it.  This woman is destroying everything and we will go broke.  Everything we worked and saved for the last 20 years. Hundreds of thousands of dollars poof gone.  Then she asks where did it go.  I sent her the receipts and statements, she doesn't believe me.  Not that it matters, but in her head i think she thinks shes right.
She has broke contact from her whole family, adult child included.  Its all my fault according to her. She's getting worse.

[dtkm]

Just be careful on offering "primary parent" to her.  I feel like once that is offered, it would be hard to get back, even if she doesn't accept, she has it on paper that you are ok if she is the primary parent (and if she is the primary parent, why shouldn't she have more than 50% of their time...a fight she may try to pick).  I am assuming that "primary parent" means making all decisions concerning parenting.  That means everything...medical decisions, educational decisions...any decision that could affect the kid's lives...and in turn, yours.  This is a bigger thing than I think sometimes we notice. 

[Skip]

Why is she so vengeful?

The handed her a huge defeat in ordering 50/50 on the temporary orders. Soi no she is in fight mode. And the facts are that if it appears to the judge that the two of you are so consumed in tearing each other apart, he will order "disney visitation" in the best interest of the kids. You will likely be the recipient.

If she says no I told my attorney to change it to an at fault divorce and scare the PLEASE READ out of her for parental alienation and harassment against me, put her on standard possession and cover my attorney fees and her wasted spending for the witch hunt against me.  

Have you two done the first level of discovery? In my experience (I am not an attorney so my experience is limited), settlement talks are best after the first round as both lawyers have the facts in front of them.

You are so ahead game... stay cool... win the war (and not take too many battle casualties).

That means everything...medical decisions, educational decisions...any decision that could affect the kid's lives...and in turn, yours.  This is a bigger thing than I think sometimes we notice. 

And where to live...

[EyesUp]

Just be careful on offering "primary parent" to her.  I feel like once that is offered, it would be hard to get back, even if she doesn't accept, she has it on paper that you are ok if she is the primary parent (and if she is the primary parent, why shouldn't she have more than 50% of their time...a fight she may try to pick).  I am assuming that "primary parent" means making all decisions concerning parenting.  That means everything...medical decisions, educational decisions...any decision that could affect the kid's lives...and in turn, yours.  This is a bigger thing than I think sometimes we notice. 

Yeah, as I understood it, "primary parent" = decision maker for health and education.  Even if you achieve a 50-50 parenting schedule, your stbx can run amok with conflicts with care providers, teachers, etc., and you will have little if any recourse.

The major "win" in my D was getting to both 50-50 and joint/shared responsibility for health and education decisions.  My X immediately tried to enroll one of our kids in a private school without any real discussion, and certainly no support from me.  Based on our agreement, lack of agreement = veto power, so I was able to keep our kid - who was doing well and who continues to do well, in the same school.  There was zero upside to further disruption for the kid, it was just another attempt from my X to control something - anything.

If my X had primary status, I would not have been able to put the brakes on that particular maneuver...  And as suggested above, it's very difficult to get that sort of agreement modified later without showing cause.

Is there another way that you can give your stbx a "win" while preserving 50-50 and joint decision making?

FWIW, my X also accused me of hiding money, having a secret second family, etc.  Financial disclosures shared during the discovery process put that complaint to rest...   Never mind that we filed joint taxes for years, etc.   One of the things I learned during the discovery process was that my X had a secret CC with significant debt I knew nothing about. As the saying goes, accusations are confessions...

[ForeverDad]

Ponder this... how could she be primary parent and yet have so many concerns reported about her?

I think you stated the flaw in your thinking... "I put together an offer that is more than fair".  We here have wonderful qualities - such as a sense of fairness - that can sabotage us in cases like ours.

Set fairness and niceness aside, as difficult as that may feel.  Yes, court wants you to behave decently and somewhat respectfully - so always act as though a judge is looking over your shoulder - but it doesn't rate fairness as a criteria.  Imagine you telling the judge, "Look how fair I am!" and the judge just says, "So?"

My ex was entitled from the very start.  Though she faced a Threat of DV charge at the start, had threatened to kill me, that was off the table after a few months since "she did not have a weapon in her hands".

In contrast, family court granted her mother's deference, she got full temp custody and majority time.  No wonder she delayed the divorce so much that the divorce took over two years.

We exited with Shared Parenting, equal custody and equal time.  However, I anticipated that she would continue problematic in her entitlement -  and she was! - so I went along with the Custody Evaluator for equal everything except... it was Trial Day and I stated that if we didn't settle with me in charge of schooling (Residential Parent for School Purposes) that we would start the trial.

Predictably she continued entitled but she couldn't take our kid and move away.  After a couple years I went back for custody and majority time, but only got custody.  She was still entitled and her antics continued.  I went back again and finally got majority time.  Finally her entitlement balloon deflated enough that we never went back to court.

Now, back to you.  You've already gotten a temp order with 50/50 time.  If at all possible hold onto that 50% as a minimum for dear life, so to speak.  Don't Gift it back to her!  Otherwise it would probably be an uphill struggle to get it back and you would regret your "fairness" in the years to come.

Sometimes the parents can choose which aspects of "custody" can be assigned to which parent.  There is medical, schooling, mental health, religious, sports activities, etc.

Or another option might be for custody be equal but if there is disagreement then you would have "Decision Making" or "Tie Breaker" status.  That of course would not stop her from taking it to court or a mediator but at least it would be her having to take it to court at an impasse rather than you cooling your heels doing nothing while waiting months to present your case.

Please, set aside your thoughts of offering "fairness".  She won't care one whit and neither will court.  Instead, think of what is practical to avoid/minimize future conflict.

[mikejones75093]

I wasn't going to give her anything back.  50/50 is minimum I'm willing to take.

Well today I got notified she filed to modify the temp orders and put me on supervised visitation.   Accusing me of alcohol and drug abuse,  not feeding my kids, and hiding money.

It's all BS.  I've been alcohol testing in secret because I knew she would do this.  She called the cops on me for not feeding my kids, cops came out and knew it was crap.   Hiding money,  well I'm not.

I don't know whether to be happy or mad about this.  I was pissed at first, then I'm thinking well if I want the court to know she's not right she has to do something.  Filing a modification for the exact same things as the TRO that was already ruled with only her word and no evidence, the Court has to say she's nuts right?

I have the alcohol tests,  ill take a drug test I don't do drugs and she knows this, the cops sent the call log saying no issues on her BS call for me not feeding them.  This has to be bad for her and backfire?  I hope so.  I'm made and nervous. 

[mikejones75093]

She drained our community cash account, so she also filed a motion for me to pay her attorney fees because she expects significant fees to defend my allegations.  My allegations?  This is just crazy.  So she files false things on me, then wants me to pay for it?

[ForeverDad]

Well today I got notified she filed to modify the temp orders and put me on supervised visitation.   Accusing me of alcohol and drug abuse,  not feeding my kids, and hiding money.

I don't recall anyone here reporting that hiding money successfully triggered supervised visitation.

Similarly, the other claims would have to be not only substantiated but also be found to be actionable, that is, being some sort of danger to the children.  For example, millions of parents drink beer and other alcoholic beverages and that alone does not disqualify them from parenting.

I suspect she is trying to make you (unsubstantiated) look worse than her (substantiated).

I expect children's services and other associated professionals will be tasked to investigate and report back to the court.  Likely that will be in the next hearing where both of you are present.

I don't know whether to be happy or mad about this.  I was pissed at first, then I'm thinking well if I want the court to know she's not right she has to do something.  Filing a modification for the exact same things as the TRO that was already ruled with only her word and no evidence, the Court has to say she's nuts right?

My experience was that my court didn't care about how either of us behaved, how good I behaved or how bad she behaved.  Allegations mean little, documentation and evidence count.  All through my divorce my then-stbEx delayed, obstructed, made many unsubstantiated allegations and the court calmly moved on to the next step in the process.  Court steadfastly declined to call her a liar.  Just once it came close, writing in a decision that she was "not credible" which I took as passive court-speak for "Liar!"

And it didn't get fed up with repeated failed allegations.  I used to joke with friends that they would let her keep filing and be ready to pounce on me as far as the 101st allegation if only *something* would stick.

[Skip]

She is dead set on being the "primary" parent and wants to move the kids and change their school, that is not ok with me.  I said she is primary parent, kids stay in current school district, bind to county, 50/50 custody and offered her a fair amount of money.  

I think there is some confusion in the conversation here between conservatorship (primary parent) and possession. Not sure if it is a typo or not.  

Under the Family Code in your state, child custody is divided into two categories: (1) conservatorship, and (2) possession.

Conservatorship describes a parent’s right to make important decisions on a child’s behalf, while possession is a parent’s right to physical custody of his or her child(ren). Depending on the circumstances, these rights can be granted to parents either jointly or separately. Some of these rights include the right to consent to medical, dental, and surgical treatment involving invasive procedures, the right to consent to psychiatric and psychological treatment, and the right to make decisions concerning the child’s education.

When determining conservatorship, the code requires that judges presume that it is in a child’s best interests to have both parents be named “joint managing conservators.” and share the decision-making rights described above. However, it is common practice amongst judges to give only one parent the right to decide the child’s primary residence. In other words, the judge chooses one parent to be the primary parent and to have the ultimate say-so on where the child will live. Whichever parent is not granted this right is usually deemed the “non-custodial” or “non-primary” parent and is given possession of the child under the Standard Possession Order.

The members are saying that joint conservatorship is important.

That being said, are you offering her sole conservatorship (primary parent) to you wife?

Hope this helps the discussion.

If she says no I told my attorney to change it to an at fault divorce and scare the PLEASE READ out of her...

Can you talk about this more? You have expressed concerns about the divorce costing a lot of money - "fault" divorces are far more expensive that no-fault.

She drained our community cash account, so she also filed a motion for me to pay her attorney fees because she expects significant fees to defend my allegations.  My allegations?  This is just crazy.  So she files false things on me, then wants me to pay for it?

In the end, the judge is going to take the remaining assets of the marriage and split it 50%/50% unless there is some egregious thing, and in that case 55%/45%.

It sounds like her attorney is amping things up - its pretty early to be discussing attorneys fees - and that is to the attorney's benefit (more fight means more fees).

[EyesUp]

She drained our community cash account, so she also filed a motion for me to pay her attorney fees because she expects significant fees to defend my allegations.  My allegations?  This is just crazy.  So she files false things on me, then wants me to pay for it?

Not sure about your state, but in mine, whoever files first is under an immediate financial restraining order.  This also applies to the other party once served. 

If one or both of you are under a financial restraining order, draining the account after the order was in effect, i.e., after the motion for divorce was filed - while difficult to recover - will not look good in front of the judge. 

How do you feel about your atty at this point?   Getting good advice?  Concise and clear responses to your concerns?  Effective advice?  I ask because some attys will enable clients to rack up a large amount of billable time while listening to emotional complaints and circumstances that are probably not relevant to legal proceedings... 

My advice: Don't use your atty to vent.
Also:  Have you told your atty exactly what you want to accomplish?  i.e., "I want 50-50 parenting time, I expect to pay $xx in child support, and I propose the following division of assets"

Where did you end up re: "primary" status?  Based on the comments posted here (and also my own experience), it would be interesting to know if that's moving ahead or not.  If it is still on the table, it seems like your atty might be willing to give the other side a quick win.  What are you getting in return for giving this up?  How does a potentially contested case hold up if you're willing to give your stbx primary status?  i.e., you've got recordings of her raging, presumably in front of the kids. If you agree that she's entitled to primary status, those recordings become irrelevant.

I don't mean to stir things up - Candidly, the way these things go, you probably won't get to use those videos anytime soon anyway - just trying to understand where you're at.

Hang in there!

[ForeverDad]

I expect anybody can ask for anything.  Whether she would get it, well, that may depend on how extreme your financial status differences are and surely other factors.

In my divorce over a decade ago I did not pay my spouse's legal fees.  I don't know whether that's a state, legal or whatever thing.  I do know that when she offered to give up her equity in the home, her lawyer stopped that.  Obviously her lawyer expected payment after finances were split.

In any case, many of the financial matters, such as splitting the assets and debts, are left for the final days and hours of the divorce.  (The lawyers will quickly rush through that stage so be aware that your lawyer will forget some issues important to you.)  Surprising as it is, our sorts of protracted divorces do often settle but seldom in the early part of the divorce.  Usually it's just before a major hearing or trial.

[ForeverDad]

If I haven't already, I too will sound off on any terms Gifting her some sort of "primary parent" status.

Right now you've reported serious behavioral concerns about her spousal and parenting patterns.  Eventually the professionals and the court will reach a consensus on how "actionable" her patterns are.  But offering to categorize her as "primary parent", even if in words only to mollify her, would seriously damage the incidents you've just filed.

Likely this could require an in-depth Custody Evaluation - by a well respected expert - to assess each parent's mental health and more importantly how their mental health and behaviors impact the children.

[livednlearned]

This has to be bad for her and backfire?

Dollars to donuts most professionals involved in your divorce are rubber stamping their way through this part. Most couples at this stage are on tilt. This is not new or different or outrageous.

Some lawyers will see bags of cash.

Most will be waiting for the two of you to settle down, if you can.

They might do backroom dealing where they say things about your temperament.

When your stuff grabs the attention of "courts" is when/if this goes on for a while and one or both parents can't or won't agree on things or follow simple orders, especially when things impact kids.

You two are ending a contract. It's a bit messy, yes, but they see that all the time.

Judges look at people like us and see a couple of knuckleheads who can't do what's best for the kids. They wonder why anyone in his or her right mind would let, much less want, a total stranger to make decisions about the well-being of the kids. Unless there is documentation to show that something or someone is genuinely harming the kids.

What is your lawyer saying about any of this?

Ideally, you have someone saying this is all smoke and no fire. If there's anything to be concerned about, it should be straightforward.

I asked my lawyer to look at stuff and let me know what if anything I should be concerned about. Our ratio was about 10:1 of nothingburger to something.

[mikejones75093]

I don't recall anyone here reporting that hiding money successfully triggered supervised visitation.

Similarly, the other claims would have to be not only substantiated but also be found to be actionable, that is, being some sort of danger to the children.  For example, millions of parents drink beer and other alcoholic beverages and that alone does not disqualify them from parenting.

I suspect she is trying to make you (unsubstantiated) look worse than her (substantiated).

I expect children's services and other associated professionals will be tasked to investigate and report back to the court.  Likely that will be in the next hearing where both of you are present.

My experience was that my court didn't care about how either of us behaved, how good I behaved or how bad she behaved.  Allegations mean little, documentation and evidence count.  All through my divorce my then-stbEx delayed, obstructed, made many unsubstantiated allegations and the court calmly moved on to the next step in the process.  Court steadfastly declined to call her a liar.  Just once it came close, writing in a decision that she was "not credible" which I took as passive court-speak for "Liar!"

And it didn't get fed up with repeated failed allegations.  I used to joke with friends that they would let her keep filing and be ready to pounce on me as far as the 101st allegation if only *something* would stick.

Well every allegation she made is her word and only her word.  There is no hidden money so they'll have fun wasting more on financial experts.  I've been alcohol testing in secret because I knew she would do this.  Today she emailed my employer the motion and told them I'm an abuser. 

Every single allegation I can prove is BS and she only has her word.  I have pictures of text messages between her and my daughter alienating me.  I just hope the judge reprimands her and I'm set up for an uneven split to cover the fees associated with this crap. 

My attorney told me to stay calm,  let her go nuts, we will file our motions right before the court date so they don't have time to prepare,  and we have all of the expert witnesses,  CPS Investigator and cop she called that she is going to make testify.  Also we can show her behavior, parental alienation and telling my boss I'm an abuser and danger to children.   I just hope at some point the court says lady you're nuts and stop this crap.

[mikejones75093]

Not sure about your state, but in mine, whoever files first is under an immediate financial restraining order.  This also applies to the other party once served. 

If one or both of you are under a financial restraining order, draining the account after the order was in effect, i.e., after the motion for divorce was filed - while difficult to recover - will not look good in front of the judge. 

How do you feel about your atty at this point?   Getting good advice?  Concise and clear responses to your concerns?  Effective advice?  I ask because some attys will enable clients to rack up a large amount of billable time while listening to emotional complaints and circumstances that are probably not relevant to legal proceedings... 

My advice: Don't use your atty to vent.
Also:  Have you told your atty exactly what you want to accomplish?  i.e., "I want 50-50 parenting time, I expect to pay $xx in child support, and I propose the following division of assets"

Where did you end up re: "primary" status?  Based on the comments posted here (and also my own experience), it would be interesting to know if that's moving ahead or not.  If it is still on the table, it seems like your atty might be willing to give the other side a quick win.  What are you getting in return for giving this up?  How does a potentially contested case hold up if you're willing to give your stbx primary status?  i.e., you've got recordings of her raging, presumably in front of the kids. If you agree that she's entitled to primary status, those recordings become irrelevant.

I don't mean to stir things up - Candidly, the way these things go, you probably won't get to use those videos anytime soon anyway - just trying to understand where you're at.

Hang in there!

I think my attorney is good.  She's been spot on so far. 

50/50 and pay support.  I want her on standard and to pay me.  I'm by far the more stable parent.  Also want a bigger split to cover my defense of her false allegations.

She's missing pickups at the bus stop.  Not taking them to practice.   When I wasn't home she showed up walked in my house and left with some bags,  have it all on security footage.  She thinks the rules don't apply.  3 weeks ago she didn't want the kids or any money now she wants to fight.

She emailed my employer today a copy of her motion and told them she's abused and I'm a danger to children.

If she keeps going she will have to take an mmpi test and I've been told she can't BS that.  I hope so.

[mikejones75093]

Not sure about your state, but in mine, whoever files first is under an immediate financial restraining order.  This also applies to the other party once served. 

If one or both of you are under a financial restraining order, draining the account after the order was in effect, i.e., after the motion for divorce was filed - while difficult to recover - will not look good in front of the judge. 

How do you feel about your atty at this point?   Getting good advice?  Concise and clear responses to your concerns?  Effective advice?  I ask because some attys will enable clients to rack up a large amount of billable time while listening to emotional complaints and circumstances that are probably not relevant to legal proceedings... 

My advice: Don't use your atty to vent.
Also:  Have you told your atty exactly what you want to accomplish?  i.e., "I want 50-50 parenting time, I expect to pay $xx in child support, and I propose the following division of assets"

Where did you end up re: "primary" status?  Based on the comments posted here (and also my own experience), it would be interesting to know if that's moving ahead or not.  If it is still on the table, it seems like your atty might be willing to give the other side a quick win.  What are you getting in return for giving this up?  How does a potentially contested case hold up if you're willing to give your stbx primary status?  i.e., you've got recordings of her raging, presumably in front of the kids. If you agree that she's entitled to primary status, those recordings become irrelevant.

I don't mean to stir things up - Candidly, the way these things go, you probably won't get to use those videos anytime soon anyway - just trying to understand where you're at.

Hang in there!

We were restrained but the judge said I can use the account to pay bills because my line of work is slow right now.  She wasn't supposed to use it.  She took most of it out and said it was attorney fees.  She doesn't want to tell anyone she makes 3 times as much as me and over spends.

[mikejones75093]

I expect anybody can ask for anything.  Whether she would get it, well, that may depend on how extreme your financial status differences are and surely other factors.

In my divorce over a decade ago I did not pay my spouse's legal fees.  I don't know whether that's a state, legal or whatever thing.  I do know that when she offered to give up her equity in the home, her lawyer stopped that.  Obviously her lawyer expected payment after finances were split.

In any case, many of the financial matters, such as splitting the assets and debts, are left for the final days and hours of the divorce.  (The lawyers will quickly rush through that stage so be aware that your lawyer will forget some issues important to you.)  Surprising as it is, our sorts of protracted divorces do often settle but seldom in the early part of the divorce.  Usually it's just before a major hearing or trial.

I'm in finance so that's the one part I have my finger on the pulse and can handle.

[mikejones75093]

If I haven't already, I too will sound off on any terms Gifting her some sort of "primary parent" status.

Right now you've reported serious behavioral concerns about her spousal and parenting patterns.  Eventually the professionals and the court will reach a consensus on how "actionable" her patterns are.  But offering to categorize her as "primary parent", even if in words only to mollify her, would seriously damage the incidents you've just filed.

Likely this could require an in-depth Custody Evaluation - by a well respected expert - to assess each parent's mental health and more importantly how their mental health and behaviors impact the children.

We have to do a custody evaluation and mental health test.  The custody evaluator is booked months out. I'm asking we take the mmpi because I've been told you can't BS it.

[mikejones75093]

Dollars to donuts most professionals involved in your divorce are rubber stamping their way through this part. Most couples at this stage are on tilt. This is not new or different or outrageous.

Some lawyers will see bags of cash.

Most will be waiting for the two of you to settle down, if you can.

They might do backroom dealing where they say things about your temperament.

When your stuff grabs the attention of "courts" is when/if this goes on for a while and one or both parents can't or won't agree on things or follow simple orders, especially when things impact kids.

You two are ending a contract. It's a bit messy, yes, but they see that all the time.

Judges look at people like us and see a couple of knuckleheads who can't do what's best for the kids. They wonder why anyone in his or her right mind would let, much less want, a total stranger to make decisions about the well-being of the kids. Unless there is documentation to show that something or someone is genuinely harming the kids.

What is your lawyer saying about any of this?

Ideally, you have someone saying this is all smoke and no fire. If there's anything to be concerned about, it should be straightforward.

I asked my lawyer to look at stuff and let me know what if anything I should be concerned about. Our ratio was about 10:1 of nothingburger to something.

All of her allegations are garbage.  She's pissed she lost the first round.   She's BPD and decided she needs a "fresh" start.  Well that means financially bankrupting us.  She has defaulted on all kinds of debt and Subject to lawsuits, she spends on impulse and emotion,  hates everyone, her family my family, friends.  If we just met it's a matter of time before she finds something to hate you for.  She's getting worse.  It used to just be kicking and screaming toddler tantrums,  now it's hey let's spend everything we have and destroy our stability in our mid 40s.  She feels entitled to her "fresh" start with HER kids, and I'm being left behind when in reality it's her leaving the family.  The kids don't deserve to be moved around every 6 months to a year and starting over because of irresponsible parenting.  They need stability.  She had me convinced I was a narcissist.   I went and saw my counselor, she laughed and told me no way, that I'm not.  She's going scorched earth nuts

[ForeverDad]

Fact:  She just notified your employer of her allegations.
Fact (we assume):  Until now your employer has had no involvement in your marriage or your parenting.

Legally it may be unethical or worse for her to involve your employer in your personal life, especially without substantiated evidence.  Her actions could result in your employer deciding to let you go.  Much depends on the terms and type of your employment.  Your lawyer should be able to give legal advice on how to respond to this.

My lawyer told me of a case years before where the father was looking good for custody.  He thoughtlessly decided to make copies of their Custody Evaluation and went around the neighborhood putting them under all the cars' windshields.  He had sabotaged himself and lost hope for custody.

How much her painting you black to your employer may backfire on her, we can't say from here.  Listen to your local legal advice.  Does the current order in place limit her from exacerbating the sensitive status quo?  At the least your lawyer needs to warn her lawyer to keep her under restraint.

Her seeking you to pay her legal fees while she earns more than you doesn't make sense from a legal standpoint.  Both of you would be required to report your incomes to the court when the topic of child support is addressed.  In any case she would have to declare her assets at some point in the divorce, often that is later toward the end of the process.

[mikejones75093]

Fact:  She just notified your employer of her allegations.
Fact (we assume):  Until now your employer has had no involvement in your marriage or your parenting.

Legally it may be unethical or worse for her to involve your employer in your personal life, especially without substantiated evidence.  Her actions could result in your employer deciding to let you go.  Much depends on the terms and type of your employment.  Your lawyer should be able to give legal advice on how to respond to this.

My lawyer told me of a case years before where the father was looking good for custody.  He thoughtlessly decided to make copies of their Custody Evaluation and went around the neighborhood putting them under all the cars' windshields.  He had sabotaged himself and lost hope for custody.

How much her painting you black to your employer may backfire on her, we can't say from here.  Listen to your local legal advice.  Does the current order in place limit her from exacerbating the sensitive status quo?  At the least your lawyer needs to warn her lawyer to keep her under restraint.

Her seeking you to pay her legal fees while she earns more than you doesn't make sense from a legal standpoint.  Both of you would be required to report your incomes to the court when the topic of child support is addressed.  In any case she would have to declare her assets at some point in the divorce, often that is later toward the end of the process.

I work for a small company.  Up until now they didn't know what was going on in my personal life.  They told me not to worry about it, but anywhere else and it could have been much worse.  My attorney is talking to hers and sending a letter about what she did to show her behavior in court.  This is just pure insanity to me that anyone can make false accusations,  make you spend tons of money in court defending yourself and that's it.  Hey you didn't do it.  Somehow she should have to compensate me for her scorched earth plan to see if anything sticks.  This is going to cost combined over $100k and she's destroying everything we built up over the last 20 years.  She called the cops on me, cop said it was a joke,  then files with court that cops had to do a welfare check on the kids.  Well ya because you called them and lied.  I just hope the judge sees how crazy it is.

On a different note.  She is telling everyone I'm a narcissist and buying all kinds of books about healing from a narcissist.   Is this normal for bpd?  She discarded everyone in both our families and told them all they were under my influence.  That's nice she thinks I'm powerful enough to pull everyone's strings but come on now.

I feel like I'm in a movie.  False accusations no proof,  hey pay for it anyway.  I went through the bank account statement with my attorney today.   She's accusing me of financial abuse and wants me to put the money back.  She took over the last 5 months.......HALF the money from the account.   100k, she took 50k.  She's asking for me to give her another 34k to make up for my abuse.  So she gets 84k and I get 16k? 
I don't want to feel overconfident because I know her attorney is working on something against me but they have nothing.   No proof no claims.   What the hell is going on.  Feels like a joke

[Notwendy]

I think it's some strange way of saving face, avoiding shame, keeping the persona. My BPD mother has done similar things-saying things about others that are not true.

I don't know where she comes up with some of the things she says.
It's not just family but anyone who has boundaries with her or she's upset with.

My best explanation is Karpman triangle dynamics and "saving face". The divorce can't be your wife's fault, it has to be yours. Also since she feels like a victim - she is retaliating in her thinking as "self defense". I think for my mother, she truly feels she is being attacked and that her behavior in response is somehow deserved.

My BPD mother sees people as being "on her side" or "not her side" and so if she's upset with someone, she will rally others to "her side" against them.

My BPD mother also has NPD traits and one of them is lack of empathy- so she does do hurtful things without concern for how they impact other people. With projection - sometimes what they says is more about them than others. Makes me wonder if your soon to be ex has some NPD traits too.

Whatever the reason, it's good that you have a lawyer.

[ForeverDad]

I went through the bank account statement with my attorney today.   She's accusing me of financial abuse and wants me to put the money back.  She took over the last 5 months.......HALF the money from the account.   100k, she took 50k.  She's asking for me to give her another 34k to make up for my abuse.  So she gets 84k and I get 16k?

And the court will allow her to file all sorts of allegations.  Don't expect court to be so shocked as to lecture or punish her.  It will just say dismissed and move on.  Not fair but often it will let a lot of poor behavior slide, presuming emotions need time to cool down.  In family court we each had a TPO against each other.  I also had a TPO in municipal court since my life had been threatened.  Just before the last of our three initial TPOs ended I filed for divorce.  This is what happened:

When those temp orders were all dismissed (and later she was found Not Guilty of DV threats - judge ruled no weapon in her hands so death threats were not "imminent" per case law).  She immediately stopped exchanges.  After a month I found a divorce lawyer, got my paperwork done and filed for divorce.  Another two months and we had our initial divorce hearing.  The same magistrate was not perturbed she had blocked 100% for 3 months.  All he said was, "I'll fix this" and issued the same temp order, this time also ordering me to pay child support starting retroactive to the filing date.  No consequences for her, no make up time for me.

When her initial claims fizzle, expect her to make other, more scary claims.  My ex went to CPS, the local children's hospital and even made complaints about me at child exchanges in the sheriff's parking lot.  That I know of.  Like kids in a classroom throwing spitballs hoping something would stick.  Be aware.  Beware.

As for your spouse draining the account, I'm surprised she didn't take more.  If you would have given her an advance warning of a divorce filing - after all you're a Nice Guy who typically feels impelled to "play fair" - she probably would have raided the rest of it.  Count yourself lucky it wasn't worse because by the time the divorce is wrapping up and they get around to divvying up the financials, her unfair raiding of accounts may be overlooked by the lawyers in their rush to get it done and over with.

[mikejones75093]

And the court will allow her to file all sorts of allegations.  Don't expect court to be so shocked as to lecture or punish her.  It will just say dismissed and move on.  Not fair but often it will let a lot of poor behavior slide, presuming emotions need time to cool down.  In family court we each had a TPO against each other.  I also had a TPO in municipal court since my life had been threatened.  Just before the last of our three initial TPOs ended I filed for divorce.  This is what happened:

When her initial claims fizzle, expect her to make other, more scary claims.  My ex went to CPS, the local children's hospital and even made complaints about me at child exchanges in the sheriff's parking lot.  That I know of.  Like kids in a classroom throwing spitballs hoping something would stick.  Be aware.  Beware.

As for your spouse draining the account, I'm surprised she didn't take more.  If you would have given her an advance warning of a divorce filing - after all you're a Nice Guy who typically feels impelled to "play fair" - she probably would have raided the rest of it.  Count yourself lucky it wasn't worse because by the time the divorce is wrapping up and they get around to divvying up the financials, her unfair raiding of accounts may be overlooked by the lawyers in their rush to get it done and over with.

I just don't know how the courts can't look at this and call BS.  Same accusations as last time, except this time I have even more documentation.   Her strategy might be simply to bankrupt me, who knows.  She thinks the rules don't apply to her.  Little things like she walked into my house when I wasn't home and took a few things, she's not allowed to do that.  Court order awarded me exclusive use and possession.  She's trying to get our kids into counselors she can talk to first to paint me as a bad person and we both have to agree for her to let them see a counselor.  I hope the court comes down hard on her.  If I wanted the court to know she's nuts I needed her to show them,  well she's doing it.  I can't tell if she's being evil or if she actually believes the things she does.

[ForeverDad]

Do more than just request counseling, use a strategy that has worked well for us here.  Build a list of recommended and respected children's counselors.  Then present the list at the right time to the court and allow the ex to pick from your vetted list.  (1) Court will like it since it shows you're willing to involve both parents in the selection.  (2) You will be happy since your ex's predictable inclination, if she was choosing counselors, would be to pick inexperienced, biased or gullible counselors to be ex's negative advocates.  Instead she would be limited to your short list of vetted counselors.

[mikejones75093]

That's a good idea.  I'm going to do that.

All quiet until the court date.  I've been no contact.  Gets lonely but I'm starting to realize I stuck around so long because she's attractive.   I guess men are idiots.