40 years later: First love of my life has reappeared

[2020]

Hello family,

I haven’t posted for ages but I do read here often, and I don’t think I have posted in ‘Conflicted’ before. I am very conflicted right now!

I am in a really odd situation. As my relationship with my partner has deteriorated around me to the point of barely existing, a week ago I received a message on a website I seldom look at from the first love of my life whom I have not spoken to for a very long time. We are talking the 1980s here! We were basically kids, well, teenagers and in our early 20’s together.

Our relationship ended one night over something trivial really, and a couple of months later I was love bombed by somebody whilst drunk. She moved in, we had kids. It was 16 years of hell. It ended one morning when she booted my 13 year old son at the time, and I, onto the street. Somehow we went from squatting in a garage to renting under a house.

I sat alone, totally miserable for six years approx, then an angel fell from the heavens and my life felt complete…. or so I thought. We were friends for a few years. It did have its moments. After my mother died we moved in together and well, it has been a difficult relationship. Probably as bad or worse than the previous one.

Currently she lives out of town nearby and I see her everyday. I spend most nights there, sleep there, but the intimacy dried up six months or so ago. It was sporadic prior to this. To be honest, the relationship has been a disaster. No matter how hard I have tried to hold it together, it is just abuse on a daily basis. I will spare you the details and try get to the point.

Out of the blue, I receive a message from this girl. It is a pretty innocent “hi, hope you are well” message. And it has since become something which I am having difficulty understanding. I am having all these very strong feelings towards her. Our text conversations go on for hours and it is like we have not had almost 40 years absence. The conversations are becoming intimate and romantic.

I am very confused. I had pretty much dug in and resigned myself to a difficult caretaking role with the current spouse, but this recent development has sent me in a tailspin. I have never actually had feelings like this before. I just don’t know what to do with this. It is totally out of the blue and has had me completely rethinking my life. I’d appreciate any comments or wisdom how to proceed… thanks!

[ForeverDad]

Yes, there is something special about reconnecting with a decades-old crush.  That was someone from my younger years (25-30) and is among my treasured memories.  Nothing happened then - and nothing now - but I did reconnect after my marriage ended.  Though we're both single, we both got older, and grew into other persons, sadly.

I have a few thoughts here...

First is that you are in a committed relationship, though it is pretty much on the rocks recently.  Are you contemplating ending it?  Are there any complicating factors?  Children?  Commingled assets or debts?

Second is that you must beware rebound relationships, that is, starting a new relationship too soon.  You need to gift yourself time to unpack and recover from your current relationship before contemplating another.  I recall one mistake I made, a common one, I kept talking about my parenting struggles with my ex.  It's one thing to inform, quite another to keep reverting to the angst from the past failed relationships.

And of course this is your life.  There's also this girls own life and circumstances to consider.  If there's a future here, then it just makes sense to determine when and how to adjust your life to allow something healthy to happen.

[ThanksForPlaying]

That's exciting! It's nice to find a connection like that.

Consider how this new relationship is developing. You said you originally ended it over something trivial and went basically NC for 40 years? Were there any red flags with that original relationship?

This time around, is it evolving naturally? You haven't yet met up in person? Does it seem overly love-bomby? I'm only suggesting that you might want to look out for red flags. BPDs somehow have a way of seeking out us Nons, even after many years.

Having said that... you certainly don't want to be closed off from the possibility of a healthy relationship. Keep us posted.

[2020]

Thank you both for your considered and sensible replies. I think I am getting swept away a bit here. I have only been in three relationships before, and believe me, from what I have learnt about myself on this site and the experiences of others, it is not that unrealistic to think that all three of these are women with BPD traits. And yes, it does seem love-bomby.

I am just so worn out from this ten year plus daily abuse, that when this comes along, I am flattered and it seems like a way out of my misery.

I met this girl at an art college event in ‘86. She was seventeen; black messy hair over her eyes, red lipstick, blackened eyes, beautiful cheek bones. She was wearing an oversized patched coat her brother’s friend had stolen from a scarecrow in Germany. It was love at first sight. I had never even kissed a girl before.

A couple of weeks later she said that she needed to talk to me. “You know how people meet and then they have sex? Well I can’t do that.” I was saddened to hear this but was not going to rush into anything like that. We hung out together all the time.

About a year later I was at her parents place one weekend when she said she didn’t want me to go home. They lived semi-rural at the end of the railway track. We hatched a plan to meet around midnight at the old milking shed. Well, that night was the first time I was with a woman. I was a young artist and she was my muse.

Unfortunately we got ourselves in a spot of bother. There was a pregnancy to deal with and her mother was very upset with me. This resulted in the girl leaving art school and cutting me out of her life. I sent her letters, handwritten with serifs…. this is pre-internet, written with a quill and bottled ink. (no I am not kidding). But she never replied.

About ten months later she called on the phone. We met up and gradually we grew together again. We went on long rail journeys to other cities. Stayed with her aunt and uncle. She decided to stay with them, which left me with a two day rail journey every month to go and spend time with her. Eventually she moved back but one night told me she had gone out on a date with another guy whilst away.

That night I ran from her. I moved in with a friend. I got messages through people that she wanted to contact me but I had been love bombed a week earlier by another woman.

I ended up with this other woman and had kids with her, and the whole time, I am ashamed to admit, I was never really in love with her. I just didn’t want to break her heart. It was a horrible abusive relationship, either bipolar or bpd or both. I got thrown out in 2004 and sat for six years alone on my doorstep drinking coffee and smoking…. and that is when number 3 came into my life. She even looked similar to the first love I had all those years ago…

And now she has reappeared, and my brain is very confused. I was not expecting this. I had thought I would be a caretaker for the rest of my life with number 3. And it has in the last year or so become so dreadful that I cannot live with her. I spend each day with her most of the time, but I am grateful I have a room at my son’s house.

I don’t want to break anyones heart. I have never been anything but loyal to people I have been involved with. Never been unfaithful. I just don’t know how to handle this. Do I drive the 200km and see the person I first met? Would that be bad or risky? It would be difficult to do discretely. She really wants to see me and I want to see her. I really hope I am not walking into a minefield here. Maybe I need some time by myself?

Thank you for listening, and Merry Christmas! I hope the season is not too stressful for you all.

[Cat Familiar]

This seems like an unexpected Christmas *gift* of sorts. Perhaps it’s just validation that you are a desirable man and that there is an alternative to the life you’ve chosen. Or perhaps there’s truly a connection here and a possibility for a healthy relationship.

Time will tell.

In the meantime, you are in a dysfunctional relationship that is bringing you no joy.

It seems you have a decision to make about your future. Will you continue with the present you know? Or will you choose to explore a possibility that has shown up?

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

  you are playing with emotional fire, somebody will get hurt badly.

Having an affair with your highschool sweetheart has different rules than a normal affair does.  A normal affair will usually fail within 2 years or much sooner; however, one with your 'first' love usually around highschool the opposite usually happens, they have about a 90% success rate.

I know you are loyal and it sounds like you have a decent moral compass; however, you are on the conflicted board, so this leads me to believe that you no longer want to be in the 16 year relationship that you are presently in.

It is okay to end a relationship with a borderline person; however, there are consequences for doing so, financial, as well as your relationship with any children, relationships with mutual friends, and so forth.  Also, of my 3 relationships, two have been with borderline women, and there have been several other borderline women who have expressed an interest in me - simply put, "I attract CRAZY".  Make sure you don't either.

From what you remember of your 'muse' from back then, what kind of moral values did she have?  What kind did her parents have, as we more often than not base our own moral values on those of our parents, no matter how functional or dysfunctional they might be.

I would suggest talking at length with a licensed therapist, prior to doing anything like this.

Can you share with us if your original muse is aware of your current relationship status, if so, what exactly have you shared?  If you shared, how do you think your original muse would interpret your actions towards her?

You are in a tricky place right now.  You need to stop (or pause), assess what is best for your situation, your children, be willing to take the consequences of your actions, and then fully commit one way or another.

I am not telling you what to do; however, I do suggest thinking long an hard before making an irreversible life altering decision like this.

Do some self-care to clear your head.

Take care.

SD

[2020]

Thanks for the replies. I really need help with this. I never imagined this coming along and it is worrying me.

It is giving me validation that I might be desireable after all. I spend my days being a carer for my autistic 22 year old son, and my current partner. Neither of then see eye to eye so there are two homes which I run between every day. For a year the distance between was several hours of driving; now it is half an hour. I have become more and more miserable as I willingly hand my life over to my son and my partner and have nothing left for myself. I am 57 years old. My energy levels are so depleted that I am tired and worn out all day. And now this falls from the sky. I have gotten myself in quite a pickle.

I do not want to hurt anyone. But I am hurting, myself. I have become very unwell over the past few years. I have not been able to see any great change from using ‘the tools’ here. As this relationship has now ground down to this point, I am having to seriously look at some things.

I have become a master eggshell walker. I have sold myself short and become a person I do not want to be. I filter the truth to my partner. I will be honest but dare not tell her everything.

As far as the new first love coming back into the picture, we have had texting marathons and two very long phone calls. We have a lot to talk about regarding our shared past and the intervening years. It sounds like she has had quite a difficult time. There has been some complex addiction problems, bad relationships, death in the family and friends passing. I have had my fair share of the above too. From our discussions, there seems some apprehension from her about rushing into things. I believe she has turned her life around and now is involved with Chinese medicine, healthy eating etc. I don’t think I am walking into some drug nightmare or abuse… at least I hope not!

I have mentioned the current woman in my life, but have not been explicit as to the level of involvement it is at. The truth is I am enmeshed in an unhappy relationship where I even fear if I left she would kill herself. I find it hard to leave to go home during the day for a few hours to check in with my son. I feel controlled and trapped. My son jokingly says I am a victim of domestic violence. Maybe he is right?

Obviously I will have to confess to this. I need to have an honest conversation to this first love of mine. In all fairness, she at least needs to know where it’s at. And I need to be honest for myself. I can’t keep texting romantic messages and live in this arrangement. It wont be easy, but maybe this is the time where I have to stand up for myself, for something, and stop being a squid. I really don’t like what I have become. Kind of like a secret agent.

Like I said, I never expected this would happen, but now it has, everything has become more complicated than ever. I would really like to go and see this girl but I don’t know how to do that. I am under constant duties here. And these feelings I am getting are really strong. I am in uncharted waters having never experienced this before.

I am sorry for the long post. I am very confused and worried. I just can’t live like this. It is no good at all. Thanks for reading.

[2020]

A further thing with my current partner, is a couple of years ago whilst drunk, she got her son to contact an old work colleague of hers who had a crush on her, and got his phone number. She then dressed up, put on her boots and visited him at 3am. She came back home the next afternoon and slept.

She has been in contact with him since. I have read about Drama Triangles here. I can see somewhat what might be going on. Since she has moved back closer, she has been seeing him. She claims he isjust a friend and he is dying of cancer. Not sure what the truth is.

There have been three instances I am aware of recently where she has gone and stayed the night at his place. It usually happens when I arrive at her place, she gets angry at me, accuses me of things which aren’t true, tells me we aren’t in a relationship, tells me to  off, and I leave. Or she becomes physically violent, in which case I make sure I always leave. That’s when she stays with him for a day or two. I am not 100% sure whether it is a sexual relationship. She has told me he has told her she needs to leave me.

I can only guess what she says to him. What I do know is there has been nothing intimate between the two of us for months. She has told me she is never having sex with me again and that I repulse her. I am the worst thing which has happened to her. But you know how these people exaggerate….   It has done significant damage between us. And here I am now having an emotional affair myself, which could possibly become physical. I am not sure what is going on with me or what to do. I need to figure out something.

[ForeverDad]

While the peer support here is helpful and insightful and free - donations gratefully accepted - it is also remote and anonymous.  As mentioned by SaltyDawg, you most certainly would benefit from in-person counseling.  The downside is that it generally isn't free, sessions are usually limited to an hour and it may take time to find a counselor that is a good fit for you.

The truth is I am enmeshed in an unhappy relationship where I even fear if I left she would kill herself.

This is a perfect question for a counselor or therapist.  In short, you both are adults.  Just as your partner is not responsible for your life, you are not responsible for your partner's life.  You can't "fix" another adult.  You just can't.

The most you could do is to point her in the right direction and then support her.  Of course, such efforts would likely be resisted with Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting.  You already know that.

Over in our Topic discussing The Bridge there is a post there about The Backyard Black Hole.  (If you haven't read The Bridge, then please read it too.)

The Bridge
The Backyard Black Hole

In short, no matter what you do or say to comply, appease or whatever, there is little if anything you can do to help long term ... unless your spouse wants and tries to improve himself/herself.  Only a very few can do so without experienced guides by means of intensive therapy.

[2020]

Thank you for the reply. I have read the rope analogy and also, I realised I had read the hole one too! Shame I haven’t quite digested it yet.

Yesterday I had a bunch of kind messages from the old flame from the past. Because I was dealing with crazy  from my current partner, I could not find space or a private moment to reply.

This is not sustainable. I am seriously thinking hard about having a break from all relationship matters until such time as I can sort myself out first. It is all well and good trying to figure out why other people bevave the way they do, but really what is essential is to look at oneself. I am in Australia and have access to 12 free visits per year with a psychologist or counsellor. We had a flood here in March 2022 and the man I had been seeing for years was washed away and has now decided to retire. I need to find someone else. That would be a start.

I need to talk to this first love of mine and have an honest discussion. I actually believe she will be very understanding of this as she has been in similar situations herself. She wants to meet up. Not sure how I will do this as it is a day trip…

[SaltyDawg]

It is giving me validation that I might be desireable after all. I spend my days being a carer for my autistic 22 year old son, and my current partner. Neither of then see eye to eye so there are two homes which I run between every day. For a year the distance between was several hours of driving; now it is half an hour. I have become more and more miserable as I willingly hand my life over to my son and my partner and have nothing left for myself. I am 57 years old. My energy levels are so depleted that I am tired and worn out all day. And now this falls from the sky. I have gotten myself in quite a pickle.

Regarding your autistic 22 yo son.  I am not familiar with AU health care - I know where I live (East Coast USA) there are available group homes for adults with mental disabilities - you might want to check that out if it is available in your area.  You indicated that you are 57 and you are very tired, and you won't be around forever either.  It also sounds like you need to do a bit of self-care, as you are suffering in your own mental and/or physical health.


I do not want to hurt anyone. But I am hurting, myself. I have become very unwell over the past few years. I have not been able to see any great change from using ‘the tools’ here. As this relationship has now ground down to this point, I am having to seriously look at some things.

If you are hurting yourself, you need to do self-care, whatever that looks like for you.  The tools are effective up to a point for disordered persons.


I have become a master eggshell walker. I have sold myself short and become a person I do not want to be. I filter the truth to my partner. I will be honest but dare not tell her everything.

Same here, I do the same with my uBPDw.  After realizing my wife likely is a borderline, and I will never get back the lovebombing wife that I first fell in love with, I too am feeling as though I am selling myself short - it is the fear, obligation, and guilt that is keeping me here (FOG).


As far as the new first love coming back into the picture, we have had texting marathons and two very long phone calls. We have a lot to talk about regarding our shared past and the intervening years. It sounds like she has had quite a difficult time. There has been some complex addiction problems, bad relationships, death in the family and friends passing. I have had my fair share of the above too. From our discussions, there seems some apprehension from her about rushing into things. I believe she has turned her life around and now is involved with Chinese medicine, healthy eating etc. I don’t think I am walking into some drug nightmare or abuse… at least I hope not!

Thank you for sharing.  From what you have described, I see several flags  .  Addiction is very serious, bad relationships (you may be moving from one bad relationship to another, as even at a very early age, one attracts the same kind of people over and over again, I am seeing this in my 17 yo D with her BF, both are parentified caretakers whose mum's are likely disordered). 


I have mentioned the current woman in my life, but have not been explicit as to the level of involvement it is at. The truth is I am enmeshed in an unhappy relationship where I even fear if I left she would kill herself. I find it hard to leave to go home during the day for a few hours to check in with my son. I feel controlled and trapped. My son jokingly says I am a victim of domestic violence. Maybe he is right?

If you don't want to feel controlled and trapped, setting firm enforceable boundaries are the way to go.  Jokingly or not, you need to assess this.  If she hits, kicks, bites, punches, pushes, or does this to walls, furniture, etc. - you are in a DV situation, and you should have a safety plan.

Since you mentioned your current woman to the new one - what is your first love's opinion of this.


Obviously I will have to confess to this. I need to have an honest conversation to this first love of mine. In all fairness, she at least needs to know where it’s at. And I need to be honest for myself. I can’t keep texting romantic messages and live in this arrangement. It wont be easy, but maybe this is the time where I have to stand up for myself, for something, and stop being a squid. I really don’t like what I have become. Kind of like a secret agent.

Am I correct in assuming that your 22 yo son is not from the current dead-end relationship you are in?  Do you have any children with the current dead-end woman?  You are right, you cannot keep doing this, you will have to tactfully disclose your situation.  It may scare off your your new first love, or it could deepend.  In either scenario you have already had an emotional affair with your renewed first love with your current dead-end woman.


Like I said, I never expected this would happen, but now it has, everything has become more complicated than ever. I would really like to go and see this girl but I don’t know how to do that. I am under constant duties here. And these feelings I am getting are really strong. I am in uncharted waters having never experienced this before.

No one ever expects this to happen, you are in 'uncharted waters'.  Since you have dual duties, one to your son, one to the dead-end relationship.  Perhaps start by talking about your son, as that seems very important to you.


I am sorry for the long post. I am very confused and worried. I just can’t live like this. It is no good at all. Thanks for reading.

No need to apologize, 'no worries, mate'.  You need to do a lot of soul searching, I won't tell you to go one way or another; however, I will reflect back to you what you said, and ask some questions to help you reflect.


A further thing with my current partner, is a couple of years ago whilst drunk, she got her son to contact an old work colleague of hers who had a crush on her, and got his phone number. She then dressed up, put on her boots and visited him at 3am. She came back home the next afternoon and slept.

  Talk about a bomb-shell, it is like your current partner wants things to end, no good can come of being all dressed up meeting a crush at 3 AM.  Does she know you know about this?


She has been in contact with him since. I have read about Drama Triangles here. I can see somewhat what might be going on. Since she has moved back closer, she has been seeing him. She claims he isjust a friend and he is dying of cancer. Not sure what the truth is.

There have been three instances I am aware of recently where she has gone and stayed the night at his place. It usually happens when I arrive at her place, she gets angry at me, accuses me of things which aren’t true, tells me we aren’t in a relationship, tells me to  off, and I leave. Or she becomes physically violent, in which case I make sure I always leave. That’s when she stays with him for a day or two. I am not 100% sure whether it is a sexual relationship. She has told me he has told her she needs to leave me.

  - You have shared so many red flags, why are you still in this relationship.  It usually is FOG - fear obligation and guilt.


I can only guess what she says to him. What I do know is there has been nothing intimate between the two of us for months. She has told me she is never having sex with me again and that I repulse her. I am the worst thing which has happened to her. But you know how these people exaggerate….   It has done significant damage between us. And here I am now having an emotional affair myself, which could possibly become physical. I am not sure what is going on with me or what to do. I need to figure out something.

Borderlines do exaggerate, and from what you have shared.  She is definitely having an emotional affair, if not a physical one too.  For me, I ended the previous relationship I had with another uBPD/uNPD/+exgf for her cheating on me - it was a firm boundary for me.  As long as you do not have children together, and you can easily separate your finances, you may want to consider ending your current relationship permanently.


Yesterday I had a bunch of kind messages from the old flame from the past. Because I was dealing with crazy  from my current partner, I could not find space or a private moment to reply.

This is not sustainable. I am seriously thinking hard about having a break from all relationship matters until such time as I can sort myself out first.

No, this is not sustainable.  Would you move in with your son in order to have a break from these matters?  In order to give yourself time so you can sort out your feelings?


I need to talk to this first love of mine and have an honest discussion. I actually believe she will be very understanding of this as she has been in similar situations herself. She wants to meet up. Not sure how I will do this as it is a day trip…

I agree with you, that you need to have an honest discussion with your first love.  Do not rush into a new relationship, nor should she.  Take your time, learn the red flags, and proceed with  .

Share more when you can.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[livednlearned]

I have only been in three relationships before, and believe me, from what I have learnt about myself on this site and the experiences of others, it is not that unrealistic to think that all three of these are women with BPD traits. And yes, it does seem love-bomby.

Would you consider getting out of your current relationship and spending time alone for a while?

I have not been able to see any great change from using ‘the tools’ here.

What kind of tools are you using? There are lots here, I'm curious which ones. Some are for us alone.

I am just so worn out from this ten year plus daily abuse, that when this comes along, I am flattered and it seems like a way out of my misery.

Does the first love know you're in a relationship? Sorry if I missed that detail somewhere.

Do I drive the 200km and see the person I first met? Would that be bad or risky? It would be difficult to do discretely. She really wants to see me and I want to see her. I really hope I am not walking into a minefield here. Maybe I need some time by myself?

It sounds like a total minefield! But you might like minefields. That's what I would want to get to the bottom of. If it's a minefield and you know it, what is it about you that runs toward it?

Also, it seems like this doesn't solve the problem of your current partner being suicidal  

[2020]

You have all given me much to think about.

I have had some kind of serious messages from this girl. She wants to see me. I hope I don’t get myself in the  here.

“I feel like having a conversation with you about radical honesty.   Is it too early in the day to be having that conversation

[2020]

You have all given me much to think about.

I have had some kind of serious messages from this girl. She wants to see me. I hope I don’t get myself in the  here.

“I feel like having a conversation with you about radical honesty.   Is it too early in the day to be having that conversation

[2020]

SORRY FOR THE TRIPLE POSTING! Not sure why it wouldn’t upload the message. I can’t edit, sorry!


You have all given me much to think about.

I have had some kind of serious messages from this girl. She wants to see me. I hope I don’t get myself in the  here.

“I feel like having a conversation with you about radical honesty.   Is it too early in the day to be having that conversation?  I feel very JOYFUL about being in contact with you. Why is that?  Can you please call me to discuss or come and see me?”

So I rang her up and we spoke about a lot of past things. There was a pregnancy termination when she and I were young which has caused her grief. We spoke about that. She has had some difficult times during the years we have not had contact. She spoke about that today and needed to check whether I had complex drug issues. She’s been sober for 27 years. She spoke of her past relationships a bit and I of mine.

I have agreed to meet her tomorrow for a few hours during the day. She knows of the current woman in my life but I need to be explicitly clear to her about where it is at. I am a bit worried about this to be honest. I don’t know what this first girl is wanting from me. A friendship or relationship possibility? Even a friendship would cause a lot of  !

I still dont know what to do. I feel quite sad actually. It feels bad and wrong. It wont be easy but I am going to have to have a serious conversation. In a way I wish this unexpected event had not happened. But it has, and my life is so miserable that I am desperate for a tiny bit of happiness. If I don’t walk the minefield I might be depriving myself of a very different life. At the same time I feel terrible.

I will leave at 7am.

[Notwendy]

Regardless of what she wants- you are responsible for "what happens" - your own boundaries.

You feel terrible about the meeting up and yet, don't want to dismiss the opportunity. Consider some of the consequences in terms of your own self worth and dignity. If you cheat on your relationship- you would feel badly about yourself. Yes, there are other reasons to not cheat but your own self esteem and dignity are enough.

Boundaries are key here. Jumping into something quickly would be a red flag IMHO. If this is going to be something worthwhile, it can wait until you have ironed out your own situation.

Maybe she wants some resolution.  A pregnancy is not a trivial situation for either of you. You don't know what this was like for her. Maybe she needs you to hear about it. Maybe she wants more- and I think you are being honest with yourself in that- if she wants friendship- you don't have the emotional space to be that for her- then be honest with her. And if she wants more than that right now- as if the meeting today turns into something "more"- IMHO, that would be a red flag. Decades have passed between the two of you and neither of you know each other well enough now to decide on that right away.

Regardless of what she wants, if you wish for this to be just coffee and talking- you decide on this boundary. This is about you, not her, not your current partner. You can return from this meeting without feeling shame or that you have something to hide if all you did was that and this outcome is yours to decide.

[2020]

Thank you for your reply. I feel better after reading what you said Notwendy. I am not going up there to sleep with her, but to meet with her. I find I have to excuse myself all the time in my current situation, just to take my son shopping for example. I guess this feels wrong on another level.

This woman from my past has boundaries. We have spoken on the phone about this. She said to me that she has to be careful of people because she doesn’t want to be hurt. She suggested if we do meet up, I could stay at her place which is a very small apartment, whilst she house minds her aunt’s place. I suggested to make it a day trip first and that is what I intend to do.

When we first hooked up as kids really, she said to me within the first week, that she can’t just have sex with me like other people do when they start going out. There has been chilhood abuse. I have never pushed anything like that with her or anyone. I am a bit shy or scared myself at first with sexual matters.

I very much missed her when I quickly became involved in my second relationship. I have to confess, part of me just wants this to work out… kind of like a fairy tale. Not sure if that will happen.

The sun will be rising soon. I will be going to meet her for myself. I deserve to have a nice day. I am going to try to not feel shame. I am not doing something wrong, am I?

[SaltyDawg]

G'Day 2020,

I went back to your earlier posts in this threads, and I will try and read between the lines if you will to give you some additional clarity...

I am in a really odd situation. As my relationship with my partner has deteriorated around me to the point of barely existing, a week ago I received a message on a website I seldom look at from the first love of my life whom I have not spoken to for a very long time. We are talking the 1980s here! We were basically kids, well, teenagers and in our early 20’s together.

Our relationship ended one night over something trivial really, and a couple of months later I was love bombed by somebody whilst drunk. She moved in, we had kids. It was 16 years of hell. It ended one morning when she booted my 13 year old son at the time, and I, onto the street. Somehow we went from squatting in a garage to renting under a house.

I sat alone, totally miserable for six years approx, then an angel fell from the heavens and my life felt complete…. or so I thought. We were friends for a few years. It did have its moments. After my mother died we moved in together and well, it has been a difficult relationship. Probably as bad or worse than the previous one.

Currently she lives out of town nearby and I see her everyday. I spend most nights there, sleep there, but the intimacy dried up six months or so ago. It was sporadic prior to this. To be honest, the relationship has been a disaster. No matter how hard I have tried to hold it together, it is just abuse on a daily basis. I will spare you the details and try get to the point.

Out of the blue, I receive a message from this girl. It is a pretty innocent “hi, hope you are well” message. And it has since become something which I am having difficulty understanding. I am having all these very strong feelings towards her. Our text conversations go on for hours and it is like we have not had almost 40 years absence. The conversations are becoming intimate and romantic.

Thank you both for your considered and sensible replies. I think I am getting swept away a bit here. I have only been in three relationships before, and believe me, from what I have learnt about myself on this site and the experiences of others, it is not that unrealistic to think that all three of these are women with BPD traits. And yes, it does seem love-bomby.
[...]

I met this girl at an art college event in ‘86. She was seventeen; black messy hair over her eyes, red lipstick, blackened eyes, beautiful cheek bones. She was wearing an oversized patched coat her brother’s friend had stolen from a scarecrow in Germany. It was love at first sight. I had never even kissed a girl before.

A couple of weeks later she said that she needed to talk to me. “You know how people meet and then they have sex? Well I can’t do that.” I was saddened to hear this but was not going to rush into anything like that. We hung out together all the time.

About a year later I was at her parents place one weekend when she said she didn’t want me to go home. They lived semi-rural at the end of the railway track. We hatched a plan to meet around midnight at the old milking shed. Well, that night was the first time I was with a woman. I was a young artist and she was my muse.

Unfortunately we got ourselves in a spot of bother. There was a pregnancy to deal with and her mother was very upset with me. This resulted in the girl leaving art school and cutting me out of her life. I sent her letters, handwritten with serifs…. this is pre-internet, written with a quill and bottled ink. (no I am not kidding). But she never replied.

About ten months later she called on the phone. We met up and gradually we grew together again. We went on long rail journeys to other cities. Stayed with her aunt and uncle. She decided to stay with them, which left me with a two day rail journey every month to go and spend time with her. Eventually she moved back but one night told me she had gone out on a date with another guy whilst away.

That night I ran from her. I moved in with a friend. I got messages through people that she wanted to contact me but I had been love bombed a week earlier by another woman.

I ended up with this other woman and had kids with her, and the whole time, I am ashamed to admit, I was never really in love with her. I just didn’t want to break her heart. It was a horrible abusive relationship, either bipolar or bpd or both. I got thrown out in 2004 and sat for six years alone on my doorstep drinking coffee and smoking…. and that is when number 3 came into my life. She even looked similar to the first love I had all those years ago…

And now she has reappeared, and my brain is very confused. I was not expecting this. I had thought I would be a caretaker for the rest of my life with number 3. And it has in the last year or so become so dreadful that I cannot live with her. I spend each day with her most of the time, but I am grateful I have a room at my son’s house.

I don’t want to break anyones heart. I have never been anything but loyal to people I have been involved with. Never been unfaithful. I just don’t know how to handle this. Do I drive the 200km and see the person I first met? Would that be bad or risky? It would be difficult to do discretely. She really wants to see me and I want to see her. I really hope I am not walking into a minefield here. Maybe I need some time by myself?

From what I have read, I will list the order of relationships from my understanding, I want to make sure we are on the same page... regarding your three intimate relationships...

#1 - The girl you are texting.  You got her pregnant (which was aborted), her parents, specifically her mother, was a major reason and influence on why you guys broke you up (reading between the lines) initially so many years ago.  Ten months later you found yourself in a long distant relationship with her again, and then you broke up with her after she went out with someone else.
 How old was she when this happened?

#2 - about the same time, when #1 announced that she went out with someone else, and while you were "drunk", you were seduced by the next one, had children with her, and 16 years later were kicked out with your 13 yo son at that time, and you were 6 years on your alone on your 'Jack Jones'.  No mention if you married this one, even though you had children together.  I am curious as to why she kicked you and your son out together?

#3 - The current one, who lives on the other side of town, who looked a lot like #1 (with whom you still likely had a deep rooted emotional attachment with since you mentioned this) in which you are technically not living together, even though you do visit her on a daily basis.  Since you have not mentioned any children, I must assume that you do not have any with her.  You each have your own place, which indicates not much of a financial commitment to each other.  Also, you indicated a high probability that she has cheated on you, repeatedly.  You did refer to this one as your 'spouse', so I must assume that you guys are 'married'.  This one has suicidal ideation, and is keeping you there mainly out of FOG.

#1 - Reconnecting with your first love, chatting and now a planned visit, tomorrow.

Do I have this right?  Is there anything I have wrong?

You have all given me much to think about.

I have had some kind of serious messages from this girl. She wants to see me. I hope I don’t get myself in the  here.

“I feel like having a conversation with you about radical honesty.   Is it too early in the day to be having that conversation?  I feel very JOYFUL about being in contact with you. Why is that?  Can you please call me to discuss or come and see me?”

So I rang her up and we spoke about a lot of past things. There was a pregnancy termination when she and I were young which has caused her grief. We spoke about that. She has had some difficult times during the years we have not had contact. She spoke about that today and needed to check whether I had complex drug issues. She’s been sober for 27 years. She spoke of her past relationships a bit and I of mine.

I have agreed to meet her tomorrow for a few hours during the day. She knows of the current woman in my life but I need to be explicitly clear to her about where it is at. I am a bit worried about this to be honest. I don’t know what this first girl is wanting from me. A friendship or relationship possibility? Even a friendship would cause a lot of  !

I still dont know what to do. I feel quite sad actually. It feels bad and wrong. It wont be easy but I am going to have to have a serious conversation. In a way I wish this unexpected event had not happened. But it has, and my life is so miserable that I am desperate for a tiny bit of happiness. If I don’t walk the minefield I might be depriving myself of a very different life. At the same time I feel terrible.

I will leave at 7am.

I am going to make several conflicting observations with questions designed to make you think...

...You left #1 and 'monkey branched' to #2 ... ironically many years later you are considering monkey branching from #3 back to #1.  What do you think of this?

Your current relationship with #3 is on the rocks, where you don't live in the same house, even though you are seeing each other almost on a daily basis.  Do you see this relationship going anywhere?  If so, is it in a positive direction?  Or, do you think it has reached its 'expiration date' especially in light of your spouse's apparent infidelities?

Your current relationship with #3 has seen infidelity, and she has pretty much shut down most if not all of your emotional needs; however, keeps you around with threats of suicide and other manipulation tactics.  Is this healthy for you?

You are married to #3, and traditional vows are typically have "in SICKNESS and in health..."  She has a mental health sickness.  You do live in a country with good public health, so her care should be less of a concern.  However, you have a moral obligation to take care of her, yet she has left you at 3AM dressed up (a deliberate act) to see another man.  Do you think she is pushing you away?

You see an opportunity for a better life than the one you are currently 'stuck' in.  In essence #1 is the rescuer, #3 is the persecutor, and yourself as the victim in the drama triangle.  Likewise, #1 will likely see herself as the victim and you the rescuer with #3 still being the persecutor.  Do you understand these dynamics?

She is very concerned about 'drugs'.  Do you use?  If so, can you quit?  Also, alcohol is a drug, and even that should not be consumed - if you are a casual drinker would you consider quitting?

I will not repeat a lot of the stuff Not Wendy said; however, I will highlight what else I would have shared with you...

Regardless of what she wants- you are responsible for "what happens" - your own boundaries.

You feel terrible about the meeting up and yet, don't want to dismiss the opportunity. Consider some of the consequences in terms of your own self worth and dignity. If you cheat on your relationship- you would feel badly about yourself. Yes, there are other reasons to not cheat but your own self esteem and dignity are enough.

Boundaries are key here. Jumping into something quickly would be a red flag IMHO. If this is going to be something worthwhile, it can wait until you have ironed out your own situation.

Maybe she wants some resolution.  A pregnancy is not a trivial situation for either of you. You don't know what this was like for her. Maybe she needs you to hear about it. Maybe she wants more- and I think you are being honest with yourself in that- if she wants friendship- you don't have the emotional space to be that for her- then be honest with her. And if she wants more than that right now- as if the meeting today turns into something "more"- IMHO, that would be a red flag. Decades have passed between the two of you and neither of you know each other well enough now to decide on that right away.

Regardless of what she wants, if you wish for this to be just coffee and talking- you decide on this boundary. This is about you, not her, not your current partner. You can return from this meeting without feeling shame or that you have something to hide if all you did was that and this outcome is yours to decide.

I agree with NW on everything she has said.  I would go, as a reconnaissance mission, to figure out specifically what you are dealing with.

Don't sell yourself short and reject a potentially much healthier relationship where #1 has worked on her drug issues (and presumably others as well).  However, do keep your eyes out for flags to make sure you are not replacing one bad situation with another.  If you do feel 'chemistry' and you likely will, as there were unresolved issues when you parted ways decades ago, you will need to open up to your spouse with a much more level playing field on infidelity.

I am not normally a fan of ultimatums; however, there is a time and place for them.  Here might be one of them when you return from your trip and you are considering having a deeper relationship with your old flame #1.  Have a conversation with number #3 in a public space, like a restaurant.  Accurately recount the state of your marriage with the no sex, her seeing a guy friend at 3AM (ask if you can accompany her so you can show support for his [terminal] cancer -- see what her response might be, and have dinner with her and the guy friend - if he is just a friend she won't mind; however, if there is something more, she will reject this - use the rejection as a springboard into a conversation about #1 reaching out to you and how you are conflicted - be honest here; however, tactfully present it to her as you're triangulating).

When you have the conversation with #3 about #1 reaching out to you, cite #3's behaviors and that you find them unacceptable, and these must change especially as the two of you are no longer living under the same roof. 

#3 will do one of two things, and this might surprise you.  #3 could use this as an excuse to out herself on her own affair partner, and give you permission to have a relationship with #1 effectively ending your marriage.  Or, #3 could become enraged, and try to hold you to a double standard and keep you.  Have a plan that she stop seeing her affair partner and that both of you go to couple's therapy to rebuild the relationship.  If she refuses, and wants to maintain the double standard, then you are in a double bind and need to sort out feelings on what is best for you and your son.

Do what is best for you.

Do not be impulsive, take your time.  See if #1 also wants to take her time too.  See if #3 is willing to change once she has knowledge of the new dynamic.

Do observe and look for flags.

Do resolve unresolved issues from your past with #1, including her date which triggered you to monkey branch to #2.

Do take time to reflect and clear your head of #1 & #3 (and #2 if she is still an issue too) and figure out what is best for you.  Sleep on it for more than a week, as your decision will have life-long implications.

Do take time to do self-care, whatever that might look like for you.

Take care.

SD

[Notwendy]

I think the issue here is that- you are in an unhappy relationship and this has left you with an emotional void and your communication with GF #1 is filling some of that void. This actually acts as an escape- like an addiction- rather than face the actual problem, you can escape your feelings of discomfort with GF #3 by interacting with GF#1. All addictions serve the purpose of an emotional escape- so drinking, love addiction, drugs, all provide a temporary escape. This could be why you feel a euphoric high when interacting with her. Rather than see this as cheating/not cheating- ask- is this good for you or not- in the long run. In the long run, your relationship is the issue that needs to be addressed for yourself. This is temporary relief because it doesn't address the relationship with GF#3.

Fantasy doesn't necessarily correllate with reality. Teen romances don't deal with the types of responsibilities that adult relationships do so it's hard to correllate them. If something is to come out of this connection, I think there needs to be time spent together as adults to figure this out. (IMHO). Also it's not possible to be fully emotionally available to a relaionship while still being in another one. If you did want to give this the best possible chance it's better to end the one you are in first. (IMHO)

Our own self worth is determined by our boundaries as boundaries are based on our own values. So if your boundary is not to sleep with this woman, then don't do it for your own sake- you will let yourself down if you do and feel bad about yourself.

I don't think being curious and meeting up is necessarily wrong. It's preferable if you didn't feel you needed to hide it but with BPD that gets a bit fuzzy because if even going to the store could provoke a rage, it's understandable you don't want to share this. I think the bottom line is you being true to your values and also honest with yourself and her. I think if you keep this to coffee in a public place- and talking, you can walk away with your integrity intact.

IMHO, I think you are in a very emotionally vulnerable position right now and it would be better to consider a relationship from a position of emotional stregnth. Fort hat to be- requires you take care of the issues you currently have. This is more about you than her.

[2020]

I am very grateful for both of your detailed replies. Thank you for taking time typing out your considered responses. I’ll try to go through this all but might run out of time….


#1. Yes, I did get her pregnant. It pretty much happened the first time I had sex. #1 told me we could handle it and wanted to have a child. We were really young, both living at home, going to art school. We told friends too, so a lot of people knew we were having a kid. But her mother thought otherwise. once she had told her, she dropped out from art school and would not talk to me.

About ten months later, after I wrote letters to her every week, she rang me and we met up in town. We spent a lot of time in each others company in the coming months. We went to visit some of her relatives in a city about 1500km away. She liked it there and decided to stay. I traveled back and forth frequently. Eventually she moved back. Four of us moved into a share house at that point and she we t back to art school. One night she told me she had gone on a date with someone else whilst away and she felt she wanted to tell me. I was very hurt and ran away. Stayed with a male friend of mine for a few weeks. He told me I could move in. That is where #2 came along.

#2 was met one night when I was very drunk with a friend I was in a band with. She bought me drinks and ended up staying the night. There was no sexual interaction that night. A few days later she rang me, and came over after work. She came bearing gifts of cigarettes and alcohol. It was very fast but she pretty much moved in there and then. Showered me with gifts; and expensive camera, called me Mr. Rockstar, that sort of thing, even though we were a cheap and crappy punk band with no musical ability. I wont go into too much more detail, but in recent years I have identified BPD traits in her.

I had three children with her, the second was still born. Around 2004 she threw my eldest son and I out. She was having an affair with someone she met at university and we were on the streets. It never worked out for her. She ended up with more drug problems than prior and leaving the man.

I don’t think I monkey branched necessarily. Maybe I did? She just came on the scene one night soon after the break up with #1. To be honest, I did not find her attractive. I knew after three weeks with her that is was not what I wanted. Pretty sad really.

#3 Came along around 2010 I guess. Met her at a small party upstairs. She looked very beautiful, reminded me of #1. I only spoke with her that one night then she disappeared for a year. I though of her on my doorstep every day. One night out of the blue rocked up on my doorstep with her son. We went to town and drank at a bar. She told me I was a really nice guy. This did wonders for my battered self esteem.

We ended up having a close friendship for maybe two years but there were these incidences where out of the blue she would hate me. Eventually we slept with each other. She said it must never happen again, but it did, from time to time.

After my mother died, I rand #3 up. She had not been talking to me for many months. I was pretty depressed. She asked me to visit her. She had been living in her car but was now at her sisters house. So to cut a long story short, which I am certain could be read on this website elsewhere, I told her I loved her. She moved in with me soon after, with her son.

About a month later she was accusing me of being in a relationship still with #2. The accusations and fighting became more frequent. She cut me off from my family of origin and friends. Really dislikes my two boys. Took until 2018 until a counsellor pointed me to DBT articles and the penny dropped.


I have never been married to any of these women, or anyone for that matter. Only had these three relationships. Only had sexual intimacy with these three women. I am not financially tied to #3. We jointly own a few things together, including a caravan worth $4000. We lost everything in a flood in 2022.

As far as drugs go, no I don’t use drugs. I stopped my daily weed problem over ten years ago. Haven’t touched it since. I stopped cigarettes soon after. Alcohol I don’t care much for. I sometimes drink with #3 . She drinks daily and often to excess.  eing her drinking buddy is problematic. I don’t mind a glass of French red, but I don’t go buying alcohol just for myself and wouldn’t miss it.

What do I think of the monkey branching? Well I thought it was something they did, not us! Seeing you have mentioned it, yes, it does look like I am doing this from #3 to #1. That has to be a   if not   , correct? I really don’t want to act poorly here. These are real people and they need to be treated with respect. And I need to figure out respecting myself a little more.


I would write more if I had more time. I have to leave very soon and will come back with a report and answer the remaining questions which have been raised. I am realy grateful for all who have contributed and helped me figure this out. I read here often but seldom post. Thank you for taking time out of your day and giving me such excellent guidance.

I’ll be back in 24 hours. I’ll be watching out for those flags and monkey branches!  

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

Comments and observations on your more recent post...

#1. Yes, I did get her pregnant. It pretty much happened the first time I had sex. #1 told me we could handle it and wanted to have a child. We were really young, both living at home, going to art school. We told friends too, so a lot of people knew we were having a kid. But her mother thought otherwise. once she had told her, she dropped out from art school and would not talk to me.

For young people who are still living with their parents, this is really powerful stuff, not only for you, but her too, especially with the pregnancy - there is likely a lot of residual emotion even after several decades of separation that need to be resolved.


#2 was met one night when I was very drunk with a friend I was in a band with. She bought me drinks and ended up staying the night. There was no sexual interaction that night. A few days later she rang me, and came over after work. She came bearing gifts of cigarettes and alcohol. It was very fast but she pretty much moved in there and then. Showered me with gifts; and expensive camera, called me Mr. Rockstar, that sort of thing, even though we were a cheap and crappy punk band with no musical ability. I wont go into too much more detail, but in recent years I have identified BPD traits in her.

That is typical 'love bombing'.


I had three children with her, the second was still born. Around 2004 she threw my eldest son and I out. She was having an affair with someone she met at university and we were on the streets. It never worked out for her. She ended up with more drug problems than prior and leaving the man.

She just came on the scene one night soon after the break up with #1. To be honest, I did not find her attractive. I knew after three weeks with her that is was not what I wanted. Pretty sad really.

She was not what you wanted, yet you stayed... WHY?  Probably attachment issues.  Even though I test as 'securely attached' my own individual therapist sees a tendency of anxious avoidant in me - that is what makes me codependent.  This is what makes me stay in a relationship that I really have no business being in.  I am looking at you from the perspective you gave me, and I share many of the same character traits as you do...  I will expand near the end of this post on this aspect more...


#3 ... So to cut a long story short, which I am certain could be read on this website elsewhere, I told her I loved her. She moved in with me soon after, with her son.

About a month later she was accusing me of being in a relationship still with #2. The accusations and fighting became more frequent. She cut me off from my family of origin and friends. Really dislikes my two boys. Took until 2018 until a counsellor pointed me to DBT articles and the penny dropped.

Same here, I have been accused of having affairs with my children's playdate mothers, a licensed therapist, and an ordained minister - some really weird sh!t.  My wife acted crazy first in front of my female acquaintances (the playdate mothers) and then my guy friends too a few years later, where I would no longer interact with them, nor invite them, and they fell by the wayside, effectively isolating me from them.  Like you, it took a therapist to blurt out only 40 minutes into my first session with him "Has your wife been evaluated for bipolar or BPD?" - That was June of 2022, and it was a definite eye opening experience that I really did not want to know about or accept.


I have never been married to any of these women, or anyone for that matter. Only had these three relationships. Only had sexual intimacy with these three women. I am not financially tied to #3. We jointly own a few things together, including a caravan worth $4000. We lost everything in a flood in 2022.

$4k AU is a very inexpensive caravan, I live next to a caravan dealer, and they only sell the smallest caravans that can be towed by a motorcycle at that price, used.  I see almost no obligations to #3, other perhaps emotional support of her son - what is your involvement with him?  I know you mentioned she doesn't like yours, and I can only assume that yours are now grown and out of the home, and you live with one of them.


As far as drugs go, no I don’t use drugs. I stopped my daily weed problem over ten years ago. Haven’t touched it since. I stopped cigarettes soon after. Alcohol I don’t care much for. I sometimes drink with #3 . She drinks daily and often to excess.  eing her drinking buddy is problematic. I don’t mind a glass of French red, but I don’t go buying alcohol just for myself and wouldn’t miss it.

From what you have described, I do not see an issue here.  Let #1, lead by her example on what she finds acceptable with substance use (wine, beer, etc.). 

To summarize, all three of the women you have had sex with have had some variation of affairs (or it felt that way).  All three have had, or presently have issues with substance abuse.  You yourself had an issue over a decade ago, that you have managed to stop, so you might have this in common with #1.  I sense you are a lot like me, and seeing this friend feels like an affair and this is making you feel bad, being shameful, yet all three have seen others while you were seeing them.  Out of the three women, #1 is the least bad, even though she wounded you emotionally when she shared with you that she saw someone else.  How old were you and #1 at the time of your breakup with #1?

What do I think of the monkey branching? Well I thought it was something they did, not us!

While borderlines do monkey branching more readily, it is not an exclusive Cluster-B trait.  It stems from an attachment style from our own childhood wounds on how we were brought up, I myself found myself feeling that way after my uBPD/uNPD/u+exgf dumped me to chase after another man, as she still had my stuff, but I was shut out.  A few months later, I rang up the woman who would become my wife as she had given me her contact information while I was still dating the exgf. 


Seeing you have mentioned it, yes, it does look like I am doing this from #3 to #1. That has to be a   if not   , correct? I really don’t want to act poorly here. These are real people and they need to be treated with respect. And I need to figure out respecting myself a little more.

It is definitely a and can even be a  .  Yes, they need to be treated with respect, just as you deserve to be treated with respect as well, mate.  One of the most damaging traits of being codependent that I see in myself, and you too, is a compliance pattern of "Are extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long." - for a list of patterns see https://coda.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/2011-Patterns-of-Recovery-2015.pdf - look for ones that you do, see if any of these patterns resonate with you.  An excellent article on codependent (be sure to follow the links, there is one on how to fall out of love with someone at https://www.happierhuman.com/codependent-traits/.

All borderlines are also codependent; however, the reverse may not be true.  In my case, and I suspect in your case as well only #2 and #3 are borderline; however, #1 is likely a codependent like yourself.

If both of you are codependent, your relationship will either be better than everyone else's or worse than everyone else's.  If both of you are in Therapy (highly recommended) it can be a really wonderful thing.  For more free resources in Australia, you can visit https://www.codependentsanonymous.org.au/ - the US site has excellent free literature at https://coda.org/meeting-materials/


This will give you a tremendous amount to think about, if you want more resources, let me know.

I am hoping your meeting went well, please fill us in when you get a chance.

Take care, with self-care.  Also, ponder, assess, reflect, meditate on what is happening.  Definitely do not rush things. 

Until next time, keep coming back.

SD

[2020]

Thank you for taking the time again to write a lengthy reply. I am sorry for any similarities in my relationship and yours! I will check out the links. Here is an update.

I drove up to see #1. She is pet-sitting in a strangers house for 3 weeks. It was very luxurious. She opened the door and was not the teenager I met in ‘86. Her black ‘goth’ hair was now silvery and well, so is mine! We have become older. She looks very beautiful. We hugged each other and she said how great it was to see me. We talked all afternoon and both commented how strange the experience was. We literally picked up from 1988 as if there was no 35 year absence inbetween.

She suggested we go out and get dinner. We drove to an Indian restaurant and ate dinner under the moonlight in a park we used to frequent. It was very romantic. Then we returned to the house and she offered to make up a bed on the sofa for me if I’d like. We lay there talking until 4am and fell asleep in each others arms.

The discussion was a mix of happy memories, lots of laughter and some tears. We both filled in the gaps between when we were kids and now. There was talk about the pregnancy and what happened. We had never communicated about that before, even when we got back together years ago. A lot of hurt was put to rest.

She spoke of her addiction issues. She had problems with drugs but when she became pregnant with her daughter who is now 27, she left all that behind. The father of her daughter killed himself a few years back; jumped off a cliff. She was not in relationship with him at the time. She has had a series of one or two year bad abusive relationships, but nothing for some time. She told me stories of repeated sexual abuse at the age of 14 and how that has affected her as an adult. She mentioned she did online meetings in the past for people with love or sex addictions.

I told her of #3 and we spoke quite a lot about this. She has been in similar relationships and judging by her take on things, she sounded very well read and had done a ton of work on personal boundaries etc.

The atmosphere was quite ‘charged’ the first night. I did try to kiss her but she said she would need to feel safer with me first. The cuddling was quite intense. It felt so good to be in the arms of a gentle woman. She commented on how I had grown into a beautiful caring man and how my diverse interests in the arts and other things was very attractive to her.

The second day was really nice. We drank tea and chatted all day. There were some difficult topics. She did comment how I am intertwined with a person who is manipulating and has complex issues and this is perhaps something I should think about changing, for my own good, and that she (#1) was not telling me what to do. It made me feel sad. Maybe because it is true.

We cooked dinner together, then she invited me to sleep upstairs with her in bed. We hugged each other under the sheets. She told me we can’t have sex; she needs to have that boundary to protect herself. I agreed it was a good idea. During the next hour or so however, it did become intimate. The boundaries were blurred and there followed hours of very slow sexual intimacy. You know what? It felt incredible. It felt real. Very different to bpd sex. I realised how deprived I had become of human contact. At least I can report that there is great (but different) sex out there outside of bpd…. unless this is bpd sex in a different form!?

The next morning, New Years Eve, we continued talking. We both admitted that we were heading into something deep here. It is uncharted waters for both of us. We would really like see each other again. It just felt so comfortable. There were tears on parting. I donkt think either of us wanted this to end. The unseen forces at play are very extreme.

Driving back today I checked my messages on my ipad. Lots of concerned messages from #3. Some abusive ones too. And some photos of hand writen notes/diary entries. It’s incredibly sad.

It is 5am now. I am in bed feeling like crap to be honest. It was NOT the innocent coffee meet up in a public place where I walk away with integrity intact. It was a full on slow-motion seductive dance and extremely sexually charged. Maybe this is what sex addict do? I don’t know. I have made my life infinitely more complex than it ever was. Maybe I should never have gone up this path?

I have had to reply to #3 so she knows I am back in town. I told her a few days ago that I would be visiting my sister, not having sex with a childhood sweetheart. That makes me a liar and unfaithful. And I am VERY surprised at how readily I threw my own lines-in-the-sand out of the window regarding ‘affairs’, which is what I have now done! I never thought I’d reconnect with this woman. I just never saw this coming.

I am now feeling torn between two paths. Stay in the misery with #3? I still ‘think’ I love her. I do care very much about her. She is a long term relationship. I have know her for a big part of my life. I feel really terrible about what I have done. I am involved with a very sick person with #3. I have been her friend, lover, partner, caretaker for years. It would be so hard, painful, and difficult to walk away.

The interlude with #1 was so nice. In an ideal world, in a parallel dimension the two of us would have had kids together, a life together, without spending the next 35 years plugging a huge hole in our hearts with  .

Here I am in the middle not knowing what to do. Guys, I really ed up! A big part of me wants to get in the car and drive west into the desert and become a missing person. But I can’t do that. I have ‘responsibilities’. Maybe I just want to run away from my problems, rather than face them, or stand up for myself?

After being on this public forum for 5 years, I am coming to the realisation that the focus has to be on ourselves. We can’t fix these people. We need to fix ourselves. Because we are as much a part of the problem as they are. We might have even been the entire problem all along.

[Notwendy]

What is the plan with GF #1? Does she want to pursue a relationship?

Perhaps separate these two relationships.

You are unhappy wih GF#3, it is a disordered relationship and not likely to change. You could choose to stay for more of the same, or leave and be single.

If you wish to pursue a relationship with GF #1- then to give that relationship the best chance, you would need to not be in a relationship with GF#3 at the same time. You would have to end that relationship.

If you were single, then a relationship with GF #1would be two consenting adults doing what they choose to do- and you can make that choice without feeling badly about it if you were single.

The conflict for you is that- you are still in a relationship with GF #3. We don't post "run" messages here- that is up to you. A hypothetical "leave" would leave you single and able to pursue a relationship with someone else without feeling badly about it. 

Let's say relationship with GF #1 does not work out. Then, you'd be single. If it does work out, then you would be in a relationship with GF #1. You don't know the outcome of this possibility but in the worst case, scenario, you'd be single.

If you stay with GF #3- then you either cut off the relationship with GF#1 or you juggle both and deal with that kind of drama. And- you know what staying in a relationship with GF #3 is like.

I would also advise you to not disclose this to GF #3. Although I think there's great value in honesty- with someone with BPD, I don't see any good coming out of this. Even if she has done this herself- her emotional thinking won't logically apply this to you. To her, this will be a constant source of reasons to blame you for her unhappy feelings and to be emotionally/vebally abusive. Yes, you are responsible for your actions but- trying to discuss this with a disodered person is had pittfalls.

Rather than discuss with her- you need to get squared away with yourself so that you can make some decisions. It may help to get counseling. You feel badly about seeing this woman GF#1 on the downlow while being in a relationship with GF #3. Let that be your guide to deciding what to do.

[ForeverDad]

Notwendy posted well.  Listen and take heed.

I would also advise you to not disclose this to GF #3. Although I think there's great value in honesty- with someone with BPD, I don't see any good coming out of this. Even if she has done this herself- her emotional thinking won't logically apply this to you.

Why?  If you were trying to repair the relationship then you would share information.  However, she GF#3 has pushed you away, almost like how a cook sets a cooked food on the stove's back burner so it is on a low simmer and left for later or not.  With such a hurtful and unsatisfying relationship, we understand why you can decide to end it.  In that case then you would give priority to your own privacy and confidentiality.

Until you actually do call it quits, just say you need time for yourself.  You have a right to privacy.  Or do what you said you'd do at some point while you're away... so you're sharing but just not sharing everything.

Also, be mindful of my prior post about rebounding too soon into another relationship.  Give yourself time to heal and the hurts to fade.

[2020]

Thanks Notwendy for the wise words. When I visited the first girlfiend and was completely honest about my situation, what I did notice was the lack of necessity to creep around on eggshells. I did not have to fear a violent reaction at all. And she told me before I arrived that she had some things to tell me about herself, how she behaved badly and hurt me, and how what she wanted to say might upset me. I said that she need not fear telling me anything. There is so far a truthful ‘relationship’ between us.

Another thing was, before I left, she said there had been two men interested in her. One quite young and an older one who she had imagined something sexual might occur in future. She asked me how I felt about that. I said if things between her and I continued like they were, then I would be upset if that happened. She said she wouldn’t do that, but really, how can I even expect loyalty if I am still intertwined with girlfriend #3?

Your advise not to tell is the best choice. The first girlfriend said she can see #3 is unwell, and can understand why I would want to help her, but she said she doesn’t want crazy in her life and never ever wants to ever meet the psychopath. She insisted I delete all messages between her (#1) and myself, which I did in front of her.

This morning I am receiving messages of “hope you slept well” etc, from the current girlfriend. I still don’t know what will become of all of this. I have choices to make, but am I capable of making them, and which one will I make? The default ME would just keep running around with girlfriend #3. Maybe I just need to be by myself for a while? I said to girlfriend #1that I really needed to get my  in order and learn to stand up for myself in 2024. She jokingly asked how long this would take? Two weeks? One week? A month? I think the damage I have sustained beating my head against a wall may take a year or more to recover from.

[Augustine]

“Neither should a ship rely on a single anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope” Epictetus

I’m trying to gauge the matter from #1’s mindset.

After forty years, I cannot fathom a healthy motivation behind contacting anyone after that length of time, particularly if the initial connection was ephemeral. If after forty years I was someone else’s path of least resistance, I would be extremely cautious.

I did have someone whom I dated briefly in my late teens contact me after forty years. I just found it odd, as I had almost as much of a connection to this person as any random individual off the street after such a length of time.

I’ll be brutally frank here,  if I did look anyone up after that length of time: I would back off 100% if I knew they were already in a relationship, and the health of that relationship would be irrelevant; I wouldn’t be telling them about the other people who are also interested in me; I wouldn’t be sending long texts to anyone already in a relationship.

I think you’re in a bad spot right now, but I can assure you that the appearance of this new person in your life isn’t going to generate a positive outcome.

[2020]

Thank you Augustine. I have read your personal story and really appreciate your honesty and prose. I admire your application of boundaries too and the fact you have managed to apply ‘no contact’ so well. There are vampyres out there and we need to be cautious. I think I need to withdraw from the World for a while. I have no friends, close or otherwise so perhaps it won’t be too isolating? I can see some red flags here. I feel bad saying this, but maybe this is just some wild sexual fling? Not sure if I would want that. Fairy tales are not real, are they?

[Notwendy]

I think Augustine makes a good point about boundaries and the time between knowing her. I think social media has made it more possible to look people up and Facebook groups such as school alumni groups put people in contact with each other. But when decades have gone by- it is as if meeting someone new in ways.

She spoke of her addiction issues. She had problems with drugs but when she became pregnant with her daughter who is now 27, she left all that behind. The father of her daughter killed himself a few years back; jumped off a cliff. She was not in relationship with him at the time. She has had a series of one or two year bad abusive relationships, but nothing for some time. She told me stories of repeated sexual abuse at the age of 14 and how that has affected her as an adult. She mentioned she did online meetings in the past for people with love or sex addictions.


This information is of note- and not to be critical of her. This points to  trauma. While BPD is a possibility, it isn't necessarily so but trauma can lead to issues with boundaries and relationship difficulties. It isn't GF#1 fault that she experienced abuse at a young age- but the effects of this can take some personal work. She seems aware of this and has done some personal work- but that's where she is at the moment. It doesn't address where you are emotionally.

There's no way to know all that is going on with her but this information can be helpful to you. Who we are attracted to, and who is attracted to us is complicated- but we tend to ",match" on an emotional level- we bring our own issues into relationships.

As Augustine mentioned- if someone contacted him out of the blue- he'd have a different reaction to it. There isn't an emotional match here but for you, there was but what is the basis of that match? You have felt a "match" with disordered people, and so has GF#1.

Perhaps this experience is helpful information for you to do some self work, some counseling- on your part of the relationship dynamics.

I said to girlfriend #1that I really needed to get my ______ in order and learn to stand up for myself in 2024. She jokingly asked how long this would take? Two weeks? One week? A month? I think the damage I have sustained beating my head against a wall may take a year or more to recover from.

This is long term work- with a counselor and possibly 12 step groups if that appeals to you. It's not forever but it isn't done over weeks to months. What you said is a truth about yourself. You are in a relationship at the moment and need to decide about that.This isn't a rejection of her- it's about you and where you are at emotionally.

[2020]

I am in a situation which I don’t like. I have never behaved like this before, and I never imagined this would happen. I have a connection with two women at the same time now. You cannot juggle that type of thing. It is not fair.

Last night I found myself in text message conversations with both of them simultaneously. It is an impossible situation. I actually feel like crap. The woman I have been with now for a long time is very upset:

“I can not sleep and I am a nervous wreck…… you will not ring me or visit me to tell me what is honestly happening. After ten years you choose to break up with me after three days of ignoring me via an obscure text. This is cruel. This is not love. This is torture. You are playing me because you can not be honest and give me a definitive “ I am dumping you”.

I have not said I am breaking up with her. I said I was very unhappy and needed some time to work on myself. She wanted me to see her today:

“How about you visit tomorrow night and we be intimate….. I really miss us making love”

She is suffering and so am I. Because things became so awful between us, I ran towards an escape hatch and I feel terrible.


And then there is girlfriend #1:

“I have just been letting my other love interests know that I am not available at this time.  I hope that goes down ok. Maybe they won't care much..”

“ Its not everyone in the world fancying me, there are only two people I felt I needed to inform, gosh. I am feeling a lot more deeply about you. And its messy involving multiple people. I want to make things as simple and clean as I can, to give us the best chance.“

I asked her if it was wise ending connections with other people for me. We had only just reconnected. Then I said maybe I just said the wrong thing?

“Thinking maybe you feel bad about me letting my friends know I'm not going to continue flirting cos you have too much invested elsewhere yourself ? Is that true at all? And maybe you don't know whether you want to pursue things with me, despite strong feelings, which would be fair enough given such early days. Maybe I acted too soon.  But its ok. It doesn't mean I expect anything of you. I actually told you about it (ending connection with other interests) thinking it might be relaxing for you. But now seeing it might be the opposite”

I just don’t know what to do about any of this. I don’t even know how to speak to these two women. They deserve respect from me! I wish I could simply run away.

And this is my problem: Because I have never stood up for me in my entire life, I am now in this impossible situation. I don’t want to upset anyone, and now everone will be upset because of me. I will end up alone and miserable. I feel connected to both of these women. It is a horrible scenario. Everyone will hate me soon, if they don’t already! I am about to serve out the remaining years of my life alone, caring for my autistic son.

[2020]

I am thinking…

There is a definite strong connection with girlfriend #1, but neither of us can figure out what it is. No doubt we had a really nice intimate weekend. We were alone in a clean house which belonged to none of us, comfy sofa, cute pug dog, talking and cuddling into the night. I wish that could have gone on forever. And the sexual intimacy which went on during the second evening felt very different to what I have grow accustomed to. It wasn’t bpd sex. It was on a completely different level. Maybe this is sex addict sex? I have never come across this before. It was like a climax from a single sex act frozen in ice and allowed to thaw over two days. And I am still feeling its echoes now. Was I just love bombed?

And the other aspect in regard to girlfriend #1 is this upfront directness. There is none of the outlandish accusations and gaslighting. For the first time in ages, I can relax and be myself. If I went down a path with her, I would find it strange to adjust to not having to creep around on eggshells and actually be myself.

I need to be honest with myself first. I need to think very carefully about what I want in my life. Imagine if I directed even half of the effort and care into this previous girlfriend? And maybe she is picking up on this already. I did take her chocolates and flowers which she said she never receives.

“You are a very compelling man. I love the way you communicate. You're very playful, and smart. Its sexy.”

Personally I can’t see it. I actually feel like a piece of crap a lot of the time. sounds like a love bomb, doesn’t it? Or is she just being honest?

On our recent connection:

“Maybe part of it for me is actually the tension between you being so familiar, but also brand new. It was intense from the first moment. That recognition. I didn't expect to recognise you that much. Do you think we also recognised the starving in each other? Might that have created a magnetism?“

Here is somebody who analyses things and expresses themselves. There is no bpd raging or distortions….yet!  It feels nice to communicate with someone on this level.

But I do need to figure out a way through all of this. I need to think about me. I wonder if my connection with the current partner is me fulfilling a need by being this caretaker? Maybe there is a good dose of FOG keeping me there too, plus not wanting to hurt anybody.

The problem is girlfriend #1 clearly would like to pursue something with me, or at least stay connected to me.  #3 is feeling very worried and abandoned right now. I feel very bad about this. I will have to see her today and try to figure out what to say to her. I will not be disclosing what has happened recently with #1. I just don’t know what to say. She can tell my behaviour is out of character and senses the end might be nigh. She is now trying to desperately repair things between us.

And there is this third option for me. I tell both these women that I have thought about this and really need to be single right now to get myself well again and be available fully as a partner in a relationship. I suppose that way I will be by myself and so will they. We all lose but perhaps it is the best option because the torture ends. I don’t want to juggle two women at once. It is not on in my books, and that is what I am doing right now.

I have four options: I juggle this current conundrum until it all falls down. I end things with #3 and get involved with #1. I end it with #1 and continue with #3. Or I just decide to be single.

Whatever the answer, this is moving way too fast. As exciting as it is with #1, I need to think with a level head and not with my  ! I have been living in an abusive relationship for a decade, that is true. Girlfriend number one pointed this out clearly to me on the weekend and also indentified the fact I am still in it. She gets it because she has lived it many times herself.

This is so incredibly complex. For once in my life I need to stand up for myself! But for some unknown reason I am frozen like a mouse looking into the open mouth of a snake.

[Cat Familiar]

Is there any way you can go away with your son for a few days—somewhere far away, so that the territory isn’t familiar and you don’t have reminders of the past?

If you can do this, you will have some time and space to think clearly, which you currently are not doing at the present.

[2020]

Cat, that is a good suggestion. I don’t know what to do. I have been having a long text converstion about art and music with #1. She is recording a track and wanted my input. Creatively we are really hitting it off. And at the same time I told #3 I will visit her today. I will just have to play along as I really don’t know what else to do. I am seriously wishing if I were unconnected to anyone, my life would be way easier right now. But maybe this is just me avoiding things. I can’t run away. This is stressing me out. What is the universe telling me here? What are my lessons? And will I learn them? I feel doomed.

[Cat Familiar]

Someone is going to be upset, no matter what you choose. And you are being forced into a choice; even choosing not to choose is a choice. What do you truly want? That is the question you need to be asking yourself.

[2020]

Thanks Cat. This is going to be really hard for me. I’ve run around being a people pleaser, trying to fix other peoples problems. It is a terrible habit. You are right. I need to figure out what I truly want.

I wish it could have been better with my current partner. It has just got worse. And after ten years I am shell shocked. There has been too much bloodshed. The suicide attempts have been extreme. I have literally brought her back from the brink of death and afterwards, there is no follow up. Not for her or for me. Nobody bothered to ask me if I was ok; how I was coping. Infact her family blame me. I cant even have a relationship with my own sister or my sons. Every connection has been poisoned. I don’t know how I could turn that around.

And then there is girlfriend #1. She is being very kind to me. We have spoken about our past as kids and healed some major things which had been haunting us since the 80s. It has been worth it for that alone. I would like to keep seeing her but I am scared to cause trouble. She deserves to have someone ‘available’, and I can’t be 100% available because of my autistic son and my relationship with my current partner. And that has moved so fast. This has all happened out of the blue in the space of a few weeks.

As I keep saying, I am very confused. This is why I just want to run away. I think the best option might be to be alone for a bit. Maybe all relationships need to be off the cards for some time?

I am now going drive to see my current partner. There has been no itimacy for months and months. No sex, no touching, even a hug is rare. She knows I am very depressed and is going to try hard to fix this. I just think it is too late. Things have been left to rot and we are now at this point. I doubt even a short term fix will make this better.

I just wish this wasn’t so painful.

[SaltyDawg]

After being on this public forum for 5 years, I am coming to the realisation that the focus has to be on ourselves. We can’t fix these people. We need to fix ourselves. Because we are as much a part of the problem as they are. We might have even been the entire problem all along.

Mate, that is tremendous insight.  Good on ya.  NW & FD both offer up really good advice.  I will echo that too.  Take some time off, give yourself some space to think about this. 

The allure of #1 is extremely strong, it is clouding your judgement, as it is definitely moving too quick for a normal & healthy relationship - you were in the same bed, the 2nd evening... with someone who has been a stranger for decades, albeit having some familiarity from childhood.

I will circle back to this a little bit later on...  now for your most recent comments and thoughts...


I am in a situation which I don’t like. I have never behaved like this before, and I never imagined this would happen. I have a connection with two women at the same time now. You cannot juggle that type of thing. It is not fair.

Due to your people pleasing tendencies, you now find yourself wanting to please both of them, in their own respective ways, and this has muddied the waters for you - sooner or later something is going to break, and you could wind up losing both women.


Last night I found myself in text message conversations with both of them simultaneously. It is an impossible situation. I actually feel like crap. The woman I have been with now for a long time is very upset:

“I can not sleep and I am a nervous wreck…… you will not ring me or visit me to tell me what is honestly happening. After ten years you choose to break up with me after three days of ignoring me via an obscure text. This is cruel. This is not love. This is torture. You are playing me because you can not be honest and give me a definitive “ I am dumping you”.

#3 obviously senses that something is 'not right', borderlines, are finely attuned to your emotional state, I know mine is, and the smallest little thing that is out of place will set them off.


I have not said I am breaking up with her. I said I was very unhappy and needed some time to work on myself. She wanted me to see her today:

“How about you visit tomorrow night and we be intimate….. I really miss us making love”

She is suffering and so am I. Because things became so awful between us, I ran towards an escape hatch and I feel terrible.

Mate, I can see how are running to an 'escape hatch' especially as you said in one of your earlier posts, "What I do know is there has been nothing intimate between the two of us for months. She has told me she is never having sex with me again and that I repulse her.[/b]"

A borderline, will use this, sex, as 'love bombing' to reel you back in, she senses that you are pulling away.  If you do see her, make sure she cannot get into your phone, borderlines have no boundaries and they will snoop, mine wants a continually updated list of all of my passwords, so I keep nothing that would even remotely trigger mine on it.  You might want to rename her contact to your sister's name as that is the story you are using.  Make sure you remove all finger prints and only have your able to access the phone, likewise, change the PIN as well.


And then there is girlfriend #1:

“I have just been letting my other love interests know that I am not available at this time.  I hope that goes down ok. Maybe they won't care much..”

“ Its not everyone in the world fancying me, there are only two people I felt I needed to inform, gosh. I am feeling a lot more deeply about you. And its messy involving multiple people. I want to make things as simple and clean as I can, to give us the best chance.“

I asked her if it was wise ending connections with other people for me. We had only just reconnected. Then I said maybe I just said the wrong thing?

#1 is making moves to make the relationship between you and #1 exclusive.  That is a personal choice that she is making, and she is signaling to you that she is 'really in to you'.  You need to figure out if this is a natural form of idealization of rekindling your love from decades ago or one that is disordered - help from a therapist might be helpful in sorting out this question.  My recommendation is to 'tap the brakes'.


“Thinking maybe you feel bad about me letting my friends know I'm not going to continue flirting cos you have too much invested elsewhere yourself ? Is that true at all? And maybe you don't know whether you want to pursue things with me, despite strong feelings, which would be fair enough given such early days. Maybe I acted too soon.  But its ok. It doesn't mean I expect anything of you. I actually told you about it (ending connection with other interests) thinking it might be relaxing for you. But now seeing it might be the opposite”

#1 has a lot of insight, so this is not a but a .  This is a good thing, as a typical borderline would not be able to discern this with all or nothing thinking - this is shades of gray, although it is an off-white shade...


I just don’t know what to do about any of this. I don’t even know how to speak to these two women. They deserve respect from me! I wish I could simply run away.

You are incredibly conflicted right now - and this is a very difficult feeling to manage as you want to please both of them.


And this is my problem: Because I have never stood up for me in my entire life, I am now in this impossible situation. I don’t want to upset anyone, and now everone will be upset because of me. I will end up alone and miserable. I feel connected to both of these women. It is a horrible scenario. Everyone will hate me soon, if they don’t already! I am about to serve out the remaining years of my life alone, caring for my autistic son.

You are being way too hard on yourself, mate.  The only way you will end up 'alone' is if you make that your only choice.  As others have told you, you have 3 choices...

From what you have described on how you feel that you have 'never stood up' for yourself in your entire life is likely to be true in the present; however, you did leave #1, years ago, when she dated another.  You need to discern more deeply than she dated another - you may want to focus here for a bit...

... now for the 3 choices...

#1 - take the chance and pursue a relationship with #1, it will be new and exciting.  She is likely a codependent (similar to being a borderline) and if it isn't navigated well, it has the potential to being a disaster; however, on the flip side of the coin, it can be an incredible relationship.  This is the risk you will have to discern if you are open to it - right now - I am seeing 'analysis paralysis' in you, as you do not know where to turn.  A licensed therapist would be a good place to get some grounding in this matter.

#2 - take a break from both women, sort out your feelings for each one of them - make a list if you must, write down the positives and negatives of each one.  Sleep on it, for many days, preferably a week or more, then make up your mind.  Be tactfully honest with each woman, tell each one you are taking some space to figure things out, and tell them you will let them know in a week's or a month's time on what you are going to do - it would be unfair to drag it out longer than a month.  Perhaps use the "New Years resolution" as an excuse on why you are doing this as you don't want to be in relationship anymore where you are treated the way you had been.  In the meantime reconnect with your son, take time to do some self-care, whatever.  If you choose to stay in #2 either by choice, or 'analysis paralysis', and stay to take care of your son, it is not the end of the world.  Once you settle down into a new routine; you could check out dating apps, or find some friends and do other things rather than letting someone else rule your life.

#3 - You could go back to the familiar, #3, being mindful, not too long ago she dressed up and visited a crush at 3 AM, and didn't come home, if that happened to me, for me that is a big .  I would suggest that you re-evaluate your relationship with #3 based on what you have shared with us earlier as it sounds very toxic and unhealthy.

Likewise, #1 could be unhealthy; however, she has shown some signs of maturity; however, there are other signs that indicate otherwise.  Make a list.  Take time for yourself.  It is warm right now where you live down under, enjoy the great outdoors, and figure out what you want for yourself.  Sleep on it, don't be impulsive, for at least a week or up to a month, before making a decision that will affect the rest of your life.

I also understand not wanting to spend the rest of your days alone - I am 56, close in age to you, mate - I get it. 


There is a definite strong connection with girlfriend #1, but neither of us can figure out what it is.

I will take an educated stab as to 'what it is' - as I alluded to in my previous post, you have 'unresolved issues' between the the two of you, as there was a pregnancy, a mother who split you up, and then she dated another after you reconnected.  This is a spark that will fan the flames of passion - if it burns too quickly, it will get out of control, and can burn itself out quickly, or it can be the start of something wonderful - you are at this point now.


No doubt we had a really nice intimate weekend.

Cherish this memory; however, don't let it rule you.  Use 'wise mind' top of the tool menu, to figure out what you want to do.


It wasn’t bpd sex. It was on a completely different level. Maybe this is sex addict sex? I have never come across this before. It was like a climax from a single sex act frozen in ice and allowed to thaw over two days. And I am still feeling its echoes now. Was I just love bombed?

You did indicate she is a 'sex addict'.  This is a question best asked to a trained therapist.  Since you have asked the question, you need to discern an answer for this question before you choose to move forward with #1.


And the other aspect in regard to girlfriend #1 is this upfront directness. There is none of the outlandish accusations and gaslighting. For the first time in ages, I can relax and be myself.

  Love bombing starts off this way, borderlines and codependents have a tendency to 'overshare' in the beginning which I believe that you are describing as 'upfront directness'.  Gaslighting won't come until you are devalued, this hasn't happened [yet] and hopefully it will not happen. 


I need to be honest with myself first. I need to think very carefully about what I want in my life.

Yes, you do 'need to be honest with yourself first'. 


On our recent connection:

“Maybe part of it for me is actually the tension between you being so familiar, but also brand new. It was intense from the first moment. That recognition. I didn't expect to recognise you that much. Do you think we also recognised the starving in each other? Might that have created a magnetism?“

Here is somebody who analyses things and expresses themselves. There is no bpd raging or distortions….yet!  It feels nice to communicate with someone on this level.

But I do need to figure out a way through all of this. I need to think about me. I wonder if my connection with the current partner is me fulfilling a need by being this caretaker? Maybe there is a good dose of FOG keeping me there too, plus not wanting to hurt anybody.

You are asking some really good questions, and making some excellent observations about yourself - please take the necessary time to sort these out.


The problem is girlfriend #1 clearly would like to pursue something with me, or at least stay connected to me.  #3 is feeling very worried and abandoned right now. I feel very bad about this. I will have to see her today and try to figure out what to say to her. I will not be disclosing what has happened recently with #1. I just don’t know what to say. She can tell my behaviour is out of character and senses the end might be nigh. She is now trying to desperately repair things between us.

I think your assessment is a good one - you have the  knowledge - with this knowledge there is power - use it wisely and do what is best for you, 2020.


And there is this third option for me. I tell both these women that I have thought about this and really need to be single right now to get myself well again and be available fully as a partner in a relationship. I suppose that way I will be by myself and so will they. We all lose but perhaps it is the best option because the torture ends. I don’t want to juggle two women at once. It is not on in my books, and that is what I am doing right now.

I have four options: I juggle this current conundrum until it all falls down. I end things with #3 and get involved with #1. I end it with #1 and continue with #3. Or I just decide to be single.

Whatever the answer, this is moving way too fast. As exciting as it is with #1, I need to think with a level head and not with my  ! I have been living in an abusive relationship for a decade, that is true. Girlfriend number one pointed this out clearly to me on the weekend and also indentified the fact I am still in it. She gets it because she has lived it many times herself.

This is so incredibly complex. For once in my life I need to stand up for myself! But for some unknown reason I am frozen like a mouse looking into the open mouth of a snake.

You know what you are looking at.  Currently you have 'analysis paralysis' and need to figure out what you want for you.  Make a list, sleep on it, set a reasonable boundary if one or both demand an answer, a week, a month, but do take time to deliberately make a choice of commitment, one way or another; however, do not be impulsive in your decision.

I see that Cat has comment and you responded I will comment on that shortly...

...to be continued...

[SaltyDawg]

It has just got worse. And after ten years I am shell shocked. There has been too much bloodshed. The suicide attempts have been extreme. I have literally brought her back from the brink of death and afterwards, there is no follow up. Not for her or for me. Nobody bothered to ask me if I was ok; how I was coping. Infact her family blame me. I cant even have a relationship with my own sister or my sons. Every connection has been poisoned. I don’t know how I could turn that around.

If this is an active emergency, you need to ring up emergency services immediately at 000 - with her suicide threats/attempts - it is not your responsibility to save her.  My uBPDw would use her suicide gestures/attempts to manipulate me, in half of them she literally commented "you are not supposed to behave this way" after I diffused the situation by taking the instrument of death out of her hands.  This needs a firm, non-negotiable boundary, and that is to ring emergency services at 000 immediately. 

Additional help can be found here:  https://www.safetyandquality.gov.au/our-work/mental-health/emergency-mental-health-contact-details depending on where you are located, I suspect the east coast - I've been to Gladstone & Brisbane areas in my work in 1997 & 1999, great people there.


And then there is girlfriend #1. She is being very kind to me. We have spoken about our past as kids and healed some major things which had been haunting us since the 80s. It has been worth it for that alone. I would like to keep seeing her but I am scared to cause trouble. She deserves to have someone ‘available’, and I can’t be 100% available because of my autistic son and my relationship with my current partner. And that has moved so fast. This has all happened out of the blue in the space of a few weeks.

Tap the brakes; however, do figure out what is best for you, and your son. 

Can you share with us how functional your son is?  I am assuming he is somewhat functional as you felt good enough to take a 3-day, 2 night trip.


As I keep saying, I am very confused. This is why I just want to run away. I think the best option might be to be alone for a bit. Maybe all relationships need to be off the cards for some time?

Take some time, but not too much time, as an opportunity like this will only come along once.  You might have a dream - it could be 'happy ever after' or it could be jumping from the fire into the frying pan - read my previous posts for my analogy of this.


I am now going drive to see my current partner. There has been no itimacy for months and months. No sex, no touching, even a hug is rare. She knows I am very depressed and is going to try hard to fix this. I just think it is too late. Things have been left to rot and we are now at this point. I doubt even a short term fix will make this better.

If you get into a fight, be willing to leave and go back to your son as a boundary.  If she does a suicide gesture/attempt, ring 000. 

Take care.  Do self-care.  Let us know how it went.

SD

I just wish this wasn’t so painful.

Don't we all?

[Notwendy]

I think you got some good advice from Cat and SaltyDawg. I did notice some "awfulizing"- taking an extreme point of view when you said you'd be "alone forever". If it happens that you are with neither of them, and alone for a while- that doesn't mean forerever.

As to GF #1- she seems to contradict herself "we are not going to have sex" and then invites you to sleep in her bed. What does she think is going to happen? But with her history of SA, she may also have difficulty with boundaries and while that isn't her fault - it's something to pay attention to.

The message about breaking up with other suitors "but don't feel obligated" - that's exactly how you feel. She is saying she is doing all this for you. You've had one meeting in 40 years- and she's changing her life around already? And you, being a people pleaser, are feeling pressured.

Your current GF#3 senses you pulling away and is escalating her behavior.

Where are you in all this? Are either of these women concerned about your feelings? They seem to both be pulling at you. If you need some time to yourself- that isn't a break up- (that is also going to the worst conclusion). What is your support system? Counseling can help you learn to stand up for yourself.

There's an acronym in 12 steps "HALT" when we are feeling hungry, angry, lonely, tired- this is the time to examine our feelings, do some self care. If GF #1 hasn't been a part of your life for decades, you don't have to decide right now what to do. ( actually her response to you putting on the brakes could be telling- if she escalates, that tells you something).

[ForeverDad]

We all have moods and emotions. Even people with extreme Borderline behaviors (pwBPD).  This is human.  But people with Borderline traits do push what would be normal traits and behaviors to extremes, to the point of being dysfunctional and unhealthy.

Your GF#3 has over the years become used to you being willing to get pushed away and sit simmering on the periphery of her life.  That appears to be her "comfort zone".  However, she senses that zone to be threatened, to the point that she's even trying to tempt you with intimacy that she previously had forbidden for years.  The reality is that all too soon she will revert to her prior patterns, once her life is lulled back into the zone she prefers.

The question is whether you will accept this temporary pullback in her push-pull dance?  It's not a functional or healthy dance but it works for her.  What about you?  Will you choose to fall back into prior patterns you know will simply prolong your misery?  Or make a real choice to ponder the overview, all the factors, as though you were on the outside looking in, pondering from an objective rather than subjective perspective.

Setting aside whether anything happens with GF#1, you were already here on peer support with your GF#3 dilemmas.  That's the biggest issue to resolve.  Once that is done, the rest should resolve themselves in time.  (Perhaps while you're addressing your own issues in self-reflection and therapy too.)

Yes, it seems a dilemma, pulled from all sides.  But have you pondered these questions...

• If your story were being described here on the board by another member, what advice, counsel or perspective would you offer that member?
• You're looking right now at a mass of choices.  You're like a deer in the headlights, frozen with indecision.  Where do you want to be in 5 years?  In 10 years?  What are the first steps - admittedly tough ones - you need to decide to move forward and not sideways?

The first steps on a better path are difficult, like unblocking a log jam, but quickly they'll get easier and less daunting over time.

[SaltyDawg]

• If your story were being described here on the board by another member, what advice, counsel or perspective would you offer that member?
• You're looking right now at a mass of choices.  You're like a deer in the headlights, frozen with indecision.  Where do you want to be in 5 years?  In 10 years?  What are the first steps - admittedly tough ones - you need to decide to move forward and not sideways?

These are excellent questions to ponder whilst making out your list of pros and cons for each of the 3 situational choices you have identified.

Take care with self care.

SD

[2020]

Firstly, I want to express my gratitude to you all for the huge amount of time and advice you are giving to me. This is what makes this little space on the internet so valuable. We are all strangers, having never met in person, yet we share a lot in common.

I stayed at the current partner’s home last night and the evening was not as chaotic as it has been in the past. Nothing intimate of course. At best we are like siblings who don’t really get on. I am back home with my son’s now.

SaltyDawg, you wrote so much and I appreciate it. I might miss a few of your points, but briefly, my son is 22, a bit like a 8 or 12 year old trapped in a grown up body. He is very capable, with certain things. We lost everything in a flood in March 2022. He turned a $3000 government Back To Home disaster grant, into $33 000 in a year and a bit by ‘gambling’ with the Forex currency thing. He saved our  and bought us a home, so he isn’t THAT incapable. He can’t put a bin out or wash up, but he can do that.

He can survive by himself for days. I just run around after him like his personal assistant, which is the stuff I need to look at about myself. I read about others here who end up repeating the same relationships again. I think we need to figure out our own shortcomings. We get ourselves in this mess.

So I have spoken to girlfriend #1 today. She wanted to talk about the pace this is moving at and where it might be heading. She thinks we should slow this down a bit before we  it up. I agree. She was saying that we need to spend time with each other to see if we actually want to move into a relationship together, and we need to discuss how that would operate. She asked if I might find her boring because I would not have the constant drama. She said she likes regular sex and would that worry me if I am used to waiting months for it? We need to see if we are compatible. She has been very clear that we might have disagreements or fights, but we cannot abuse each other. There has to be honesty and respect.

There is a lot to like here. I spoke to my sister and she thinks I should consider these recent developments. She knows both women, and she knows how difficult this relationship has been for years. She did say I need to be honest with #1, which I have been, and that she would wait for me to detatch from #3. She thinks she would actually wait a year because she suspects this might have been on her mind for a lot longer than the sudden connection. Maybe she has a point.

I really want to answer you all, but I am so short of time, all of the time. I am reading and digesting everything.

It is the 51st birthday of #3 tomorrow so I will spend the day with her and take her to lunch or dinner. It has a new solemness to our meetings. It makes me feel sad. Sad for her, for what could have been.

I need to think about me. That is the advice I’d give another member here. Sad as it is, I can’t be doing this in 5 or 10 years time. I might be dead by then. Today it is looking like I am going to have to end my current relationship. I don’t know how I will do that just now, but I think if that were taken care of, the rest might fall into place, as has been suggested. I will be looking for a therapist ASAP.

Thank you all again for guiding me. You are great people with kind hearts. If you ever need a Character Reference, perhaps to give to the pwBPD in your life, message me! 

[Notwendy]

I think the consensus is to deal with the relationship with GF#3 and take care of your needs. Once this is done, you would be available to consider another relationship. GF#1 made a good point about going slowly and getting to know each other better but to do this properly and to be emotionally available, you need to take care of yourself and resolve the relationship with GF#3.

The other contingency is that if any woman is to be committed to you, this also includes your son. It seems to me that your son could do well if he were in a group home at some point. It might even be good for him to have his own "adult" space. They would also have rules such as cleaning up after oneself- which your son might be motivated to do in a peer setting. But he would be living close to you and be a part of your life and require extra attention from you. Financially, you will be making arrangements to assist him. Anyone who is in a relationship with you needs to also be accepting of this priority for you.

I think your sister has a point- if she still has feelings for you after all this time, then a little more time to make this right ( if it is going to happen) isn't an issue.

But that is for later. First is to take care of yourself and resolve the current relationship.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   You're welcome.  I will continue to reflect back your observation from an outside perspective so you can see your words in a different light...

I stayed at the current partner’s home last night and the evening was not as chaotic as it has been in the past. Nothing intimate of course. At best we are like siblings who don’t really get on. I am back home with my son’s now.

It is interesting that she offered physical intimacy on her invite, yet when you arrived it did not happen - was this your choice (after she initiated) or hers (through omission of her trying)?

It is curious you also describe the relationship as though you are brother and sister who really cannot get along, was it just an uneasy feeling, or did something happen?


my son is 22, a bit like a 8 or 12 year old trapped in a grown up body. He is very capable, with certain things. We lost everything in a flood in March 2022. He turned a $3000 government Back To Home disaster grant, into $33 000 in a year and a bit by ‘gambling’ with the Forex currency thing. He saved our  and bought us a home, so he isn’t THAT incapable. He can’t put a bin out or wash up, but he can do that.

He can survive by himself for days. I just run around after him like his personal assistant, which is the stuff I need to look at about myself.

Let's focus on your son for a few moments - from what you describe, he is 'special needs,' and is on the spectrum that needs some help and supervision.  I am in agreement with NotWendy, a group home type setting would be ideal for your son, as he will have autonomy, yet be supervised as an adult - this is something for you to consider as I think you are 35 years older than he is as you mentioned your age to be 57, sooner or later you will have to find an arrangement like this as you won't be around forever.

I also agree with NotWendy, that your son will be part of the 'package deal' for #1.  How that looks like will need to be worked out.  A group home would be ideal as a 200 km weekend visit would be 'doable'.  The alternative is to maintain a place to live for him, nearby, within 15-20 minutes or less, and you could visit him several times per week.  Another alternative is to have him as a lodger; however, then you are dealing with a lack of personal space for both him, and yourself and whomever you have a romantic relationship with.  This needs to be considered for your future plans.


I read about others here who end up repeating the same relationships again. I think we need to figure out our own shortcomings. We get ourselves in this mess.

I'm on my 2nd BPD relationship with my current and first wife - I jumped out of the fire into the frying pan with my uBPD/uOCPD wife.  My first BPD relationship was a rebound that found me on the Internet (I wasn't looking, I was on a fan chat server for a TV show in the 1990's as the www was brand new at the time).  She was a uBPD/uNPD/+(exgf) and made regional headlines a year and half later that showcased her mental illnesses - front page news of the largest newspaper in the 4th largest state.

Regrettably I will validate your opinion that if we do not identify what is wrong, 'our own shortcomings' with us, we are destined to repeat ourselves.


So I have spoken to girlfriend #1 today. She wanted to talk about the pace this is moving at and where it might be heading. She thinks we should slow this down a bit before we  it up. I agree. She was saying that we need to spend time with each other to see if we actually want to move into a relationship together, and we need to discuss how that would operate. She asked if I might find her boring because I would not have the constant drama. She said she likes regular sex and would that worry me if I am used to waiting months for it? We need to see if we are compatible. She has been very clear that we might have disagreements or fights, but we cannot abuse each other. There has to be honesty and respect.

Everything I put in bold are green flags...   

Slowing down is excellent especially considering how fast you guys connected, consider shifting your decision to a month or two, don't make it too long as that may lead to procrastinating in resolving relationship #3.

Before spending time with #1, in order to avoid the 'monkey branch' stigma, make sure that the emotional component relationship #3 has been resolved enough even though the physical component already has with a minimum of physical separation where you are no longer in #3's physical presence.  How to create space with #3 will require special planning, as no one likes to be 'dumped' especially a borderline who fears abandonment - once you are committed in going this direction, we can talk more about this in a follow-up conversation even though I made a suggestion below.

'Boring' is good.  I personally long for it, and enjoy it when I have it.  I  hate the drama, as it seems like one crisis leads to another and many of them overlap.  I attend many meetings as a peer, and I do interact with many who are in crisis, and with others I can deal effectively with their drama of crisis, and to me it feels like a worn, but well fitting glove since I have grown so accustomed to it.  It is exceptionally insightful that #1 mentioned this - I would hazard a guess that she herself has experienced this - you may want to probe into having an in-depth conversation with #1 on this fully explore that rabbit hole as this level of awareness is very unusual (in a good way), especially to those who have previously experienced it - she has the potential to help you with your 'drama withdrawal'.

Being sexually compatible - what are your thoughts on this?  Here is a not-so-fun fact, about 1/3 of men and 2/3 of women can care less if they have sex on a regular basis.  It sounds like she likes having regular sex - ask her how frequently she likes it.  If it is several times a day, this might be a , if it is 2-5 times a week, that is considered a healthy amount.  I know you are sex-starved right now, so your perception will be skewed; however, when you were being love bombed by #3 or #2 in the early stages of those relationships, what was your sexual appetite like? 

Disagreements & Fights - It takes incredibly good insight to talk about this upfront.  Everyone will have a disagreement - it is how you handle those disagreements and how they are resolved which is important.  Compromise is good, taking turns on who decides is good - it cannot be one-sided, nor can it involve any kind of abuse (yelling, psychological, physical, and/or verbal) and it must be respectful towards the other.

Based on what you have just shared, I see nothing to be concerned with, with the only possible exception on how much sex she wants vs what you want; however, due to the sensitive nature this has not been discussed yet.


There is a lot to like here. I spoke to my sister and she thinks I should consider these recent developments. She knows both women, and she knows how difficult this relationship has been for years. She did say I need to be honest with #1, which I have been, and that she would wait for me to detach from #3. She thinks she would actually wait a year because she suspects this might have been on her mind for a lot longer than the sudden connection. Maybe she has a point.

Thank you for sharing your sister's advice.  From what you have described, your sister 'has your back' - listen to her and put the most weight on her opinion as it sounds like a good one.  I normally don't suggest this; however, noting that you do not have a current therapist, use your sister as your confidante (therapist), as she knows you better than anyone else on this topic.   


It is the 51st birthday of #3 tomorrow so I will spend the day with her and take her to lunch or dinner. It has a new solemness to our meetings. It makes me feel sad. Sad for her, for what could have been.

If you think this will be the last time you will take her out, and you are going to end your current relationship with her, if it is not too far away, consider taking her to the place you and her had a meal together the first time you met - this will symbolize the irony of full circle of the relationship where it is ending where it started [that went nowhere].  I did this with my exgf who was uBPD/uNPD/+ after the 2nd time she tried to cheat on me.


I need to think about me. That is the advice I’d give another member here. Sad as it is, I can’t be doing this in 5 or 10 years time. I might be dead by then. Today it is looking like I am going to have to end my current relationship. I don’t know how I will do that just now, but I think if that were taken care of, the rest might [will likely] fall into place, as has been suggested. I will be looking for a therapist ASAP.

Yes, you do need to think about yourself, especially as #3 is not doing that for you, I will give you the same advice you would give another member and tell you to think about yourself - what is best for 2020 and his son?

Regarding a therapist, until you establish a good relationship with the therapist you choose, I would recommend using your sister's advice, as a confidante in this matter.  She is a woman and can advise you from a female perspective, she knows both of the women you are involved with, and her perspective on this issues with both, and she will be best person that is available to you to look after your specific needs in this situation.

I am going to wrap up this post with a reminder, especially in times of stress, I will continue to suggest to do self-care whatever that might look like for you.

Take care.

SD

[livednlearned]

He can survive by himself for days. I just run around after him like his personal assistant, which is the stuff I need to look at about myself.

Does he ask you to do these things?

How does taking care of him make you feel?

My son is also ASD and has some of the same range of abilities you describe.

Is it possible that prioritizing your relationship with him might be, in one sense, protecting you from worse abuse with current GF?

You are living separately and that is not insignificant given the level of abuse happening in your current relationship. 

[2020]

Thanks for the replies once again.

I drove out to see the current partner last night. I won’t go into too much detail. I lasted about an hour out there before she was throwing a box of chocolates I bought her, at me, as I beat a hasty retreat.

Spoke to girlfriend #1 later on the phone. Very honest conversation actually. She said that clearly I am still emotionally tangled up in a relationship with my current partner. She would love to take things further with me and see what happens. But while I am still with #3, then I am not really available. This made me feel sad, and I told her so. She said she will not tell me what I should do; that is for me to decide. She was quite nice about it, but really, I totally understand. She said obviously she has dreams we are compatible and live happily ever after. At the moment though, we are getting ahead of ourselves. She suggested perhaps a psychologist would help me.

So today I rang my doctor for a referal. I have found someone close by who I think I might get along with. He has experience with bpd I see.

Today it is the birthday of #3. She has sent many text messages how she never wants to see me ever again, how her family hate me, how she is now in hospital having her arm sewn up again. I don’t know whether it is true or not, but birthday or not, I don’t want to be around her drunken abuse again.

I asked girlfriend #1 how long have I got? She said it might take some time for me to clear up my current relationship, and she’s sorry but she can’t get involved if I am with someone else. She said she would love it if this was sorted this weekend, but she has waited 37 years, so a little longer would be fine!

The ball is in my court. Girlfriend #1 is taking a risk I think. She is going to really have to trust me, and I don’t want to violate that trust. The first thing is, I will need to end the relationship I have. After that, I will perhaps be able to look at something with #1. That is the plan. I will have to figure out drawing this ‘gothic drama’ to a closure.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

I am going to make some very blunt observations, please read this entirely before taking any action.

I drove out to see the current partner last night. I won’t go into too much detail. I lasted about an hour out there before she was throwing a box of chocolates I bought her, at me, as I beat a hasty retreat.

Well, do you want to stay with your current partner if she throws things at you?


Spoke to girlfriend #1 later on the phone. Very honest conversation actually. She said that clearly I am still emotionally tangled up in a relationship with my current partner. She would love to take things further with me and see what happens. But while I am still with #3, then I am not really available. This made me feel sad, and I told her so. She said she will not tell me what I should do; that is for me to decide. She was quite nice about it, but really, I totally understand. She said obviously she has dreams we are compatible and live happily ever after. At the moment though, we are getting ahead of ourselves. She suggested perhaps a psychologist would help me.

Sounds like #1 has some good boundaries now, even if they were violated a few days ago.  I agree a psychologist would be helpful.


So today I rang my doctor for a referal. I have found someone close by who I think I might get along with. He has experience with bpd I see.

Can you share with #1 that you have done this?  Also, when are you going to see him - use this time to sort your feelings out before committing to #1 until after you meet the doctor.  I would suggest not to give #1 an answer until after you see your doctor, even if you have made a decision before that, as you don't want to come off as being too impulsive yourself.


Today it is the birthday of #3. She has sent many text messages how she never wants to see me ever again, how her family hate me, how she is now in hospital having her arm sewn up again. I don’t know whether it is true or not, but birthday or not, I don’t want to be around her drunken abuse again.

Well, right now you are looking a text from your current partner where she has literally broken up with you by text.  You say you don't want to be around her drunken abuse again - you have the text staring you in the face right now that can enable you to move on with those words of she never wants to see you ever again, if you choose to do so, this is up to you.


I asked girlfriend #1 how long have I got? She said it might take some time for me to clear up my current relationship, and she’s sorry but she can’t get involved if I am with someone else. She said she would love it if this was sorted this weekend, but she has waited 37 years, so a little longer would be fine!

Having it sorted by this weekend is a bit of a considering the weekend started a few minutes ago for you.  Definitely take a break to clear your head before moving on to number 1, at least wait until you have had the visit with the psychologist.  I am also going to encourage you to keep your sister in the loop too so she can give you some good advice as well since she knows you better than any of us do.


The ball is in my court. Girlfriend #1 is taking a risk I think. She is going to really have to trust me, and I don’t want to violate that trust. The first thing is, I will need to end the relationship I have. After that, I will perhaps be able to look at something with #1. That is the plan. I will have to figure out drawing this ‘gothic drama’ to a closure.

Mate, I am going to be very blunt with you right now, your current partner just dumped you by text - there is nothing to figure out, #3 has unintentionally and unwittingly given you this gift - this is the perfect opportunity to accept you being dumped by her so you draw this 'gothic drama' to a very quick closure - I know it is exceptionally impulsive (however you have been thinking about this for days, so it is not that impulsive); however, there is no really good time to do this, and this is a good an opportunity as it gets as #3 has made the threat, call #3 her bluff while she is still in hospital, so if she does something stupid there, the hospital staff will take care of her.

If she is currently in hospital right now, this is the time to text a simple "I accept your offer to never see you again, I agree with you that this relationship is no longer sustainable, take care" or something along those lines.

  However, if you have important papers (passport, bank records, etc.) at #3's place you may want to reconsider texting her now until you recover all of the important stuff - however, if all of that stuff is at your son's house, the ball is in your court, choose wisely.

... the ball is in your court - how are you going to play it?

[2020]

SaltyDawg, I appreciate your honesty! Yes, she did dump me. She dumps me every week! I have been told for years that we are not ‘in relationship’. I guess I take no notice of it anymore. I have not seen her on her birthday. She has been sending very rude messages and I can see no point driving there to be her punchbag.

Next week, maybe Wednesday or Thursday, I will meet up with #1. I am looking forward to spending time with her. The interesting thing about the appearance of #1 is that it shon a light on the futility of my current difficult relationship.

So I am thinking, I can’t really lose here. I clearly, sad as it is (and it is), need to stop this abuse. We fight constantly and it has become worse over time. I have been putting up with it for a very long time. I could have ended it ages ago; there were plently of silent treatments for weeks or months. I am in a slightly unusual situation. I have a woman interested in me and I am not totally single. I really wish I was! What opportunities have past me by?

Tonight I feel hopeful. I am not as confused as I was earlier in this unfolding event. If something works out with #1, that would be very romantic and I may even have some happiness. If it doesn’t work out, I am still better off. I will be single and free.

It is a decent virtue to be kind and giving, but we mustn’t be selling ourselves short, ever. I am looking forward to recovery.

[Cat Familiar]

I’ll echo SD. She broke up with you. What part of you wants to even consider a reconciliation? That’s the part you need to speak with and listen to with clarity. I’m talking about the part of you who is willing to put up with abuse. What does that part want? What keeps that part from moving on? How is it that you’ve given that part more weight than other parts of you who want to be loved?  And I’d agree with SD that you need to pursue therapy before you  up your relationship with your first girlfriend.

[2020]

Cat, as a little boy I watched my father abuse my mother. He called her names, put her down, told her she was stupid, made fun of her. I have a memory of being perhaps three or four years old. They are fighting. My mother is crying, my dad is angry, and I am running back and forth between the two saying, “don’t cry”.

I would watch my dad do things, put a new plug on a toaster, whatever. And he would say, “who’s the greatest”? And I would say “you are Daddy”! I myself, was never good enough. He raised the bar really high. I am a perfectionist and I have it pretty bad. I trained as an illustrator and graphic designer before computers. My work is incredibly detailed and very accurate. There is no room for error!

I think these things have made me who I am. My father is perhaps a narcissist. He could be autistic too? I was beaten up by him frequently as a child. He smashed everything I owned once and that day the beating was so extreme I thought I was going to die.

So here I am as an adult, 57 years old. I have had two long term relationships in which may have been modelled on my parents. I have been involved with people who behave like my father. I have confused abuse with love. If only I try harder, maybe they will love me? That could be what is holding me in the abuse, as well as feeling sorry for these people.

This is going to be really difficult to turn around.

[Cat Familiar]

You’re well on your way. You’ve identified the root cause of your willingness to tolerate abuse. 

Yes, with the tools you currently have, it will be difficult to turn this around.

However, you don’t have the toolset that a skilled therapist has. (Definitely get some good recommendations. There must be online reviews in your country for therapists.) In doing therapy, you will learn tools and strategies that will help you advocate for yourself, learn ways to exit abuse, and essentially repair your relationship with your self and learn to value and love yourself.

[ForeverDad]

I’ll echo SD. She broke up with you. What part of you wants to even consider a reconciliation?

Or even continuing being the Whipping Boy?  Do you know what is?  Look it up.  Whether it is a historical fact or not doesn't matter, it's a teaching tool for you to visualize that one person is acting out and the other person is getting punished.  How in the world is that anything other than dysfunctional?

Hint:  All you need to say is, "Fine, I agree with you, we are Over. You live your life, I'll live mine.  Good bye."  Then cut all ties.  Delete her email links, her phone number, everything.

If you try to wean yourself away slowly, GF#3 will surely work her way back into your life, continue your misery and make it even harder to call it quits.

And yes, psychologist is definitely needed here.  Not so much to help you decide what to do but to keep you moving forward in the decisions to which you need to stick.

Remember The Bridge
Remember The Backyard Black Hole

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   It sounds like you have a lot of good stuff here, I will make a few observations again...

Yes, she did dump me. She dumps me every week! I have been told for years that we are not ‘in relationship’. I guess I take no notice of it anymore.

It has been so routine, it seems you don't even notice it anymore.  Take #3's word on this, show #1 the text that you are not in a 'relationship'.  I will 2nd the 'whipping boy' statement that FD made on this one.  You keep going back, only to be abused.


I have not seen her on her birthday. She has been sending very rude messages and I can see no point driving there to be her punchbag.

I have used almost the same exact words with my pwBPD - I will not be her 'punching bag'. 


Next week, maybe Wednesday or Thursday, I will meet up with #1. I am looking forward to spending time with her. The interesting thing about the appearance of #1 is that it shone a light on the futility of my current difficult relationship.

Sometimes, one doesn't realized they are being mistreated so badly, until someone comes along and treats them much better - you have had a rare opportunity to experience this - please learn from it and use wise mind in order to take the correct action for yourself - I think you are there.


So I am thinking, I can’t really lose here. I clearly, sad as it is (and it is), need to stop this abuse. We fight constantly and it has become worse over time. I have been putting up with it for a very long time. I could have ended it ages ago; there were plently of silent treatments for weeks or months. I am in a slightly unusual situation. I have a woman interested in me and I am not totally single. I really wish I was! What opportunities have past me by?

I am in agreement with you, you really have nothing to lose here, and a lot to gain.  If you do this, it will have a very good change of breaking the cycle of abuse you have been in for decades.  Give yourself permission to do this, for your own good.

Regarding your past opportunities that have passed you by - don't look backwards with regret, you have a golden opportunity, right now - don't let this opportunity pass you by.  If I were in your shoes I will take full advantage of this situation.  Mate, you are so 'worth it'!


Tonight I feel hopeful. I am not as confused as I was earlier in this unfolding event. If something works out with #1, that would be very romantic and I may even have some happiness. If it doesn’t work out, I am still better off. I will be single and free.

I agree fully with you on this, I am validating everything you just said.  You have a lot more than most here to be very hopeful.


It is a decent virtue to be kind and giving, but we mustn’t be selling ourselves short, ever. I am looking forward to recovery.

It is a decent virtue to be kind and giving; however, if there is little to no reciprocity you are being taken advantage of and you are definitely selling yourself short - what can you do so you are no longer being taken advantage of?


as a little boy I watched my father abuse my mother. He called her names, put her down, told her she was stupid, made fun of her. I have a memory of being perhaps three or four years old. They are fighting. My mother is crying, my dad is angry, and I am running back and forth between the two saying, “don’t cry”.

Wow, mate, this is an excellent self-awareness of your FOO (family of origin) issues, you were a parentified child at 3/4 years of age.  I know it is tempting to use #1 as your therapist; however, I would advise against this, even though she has her own 'baggage' that might be similar to yours - who doesn't?

Instead definitely use the psychologist for this, and on occasion, when the psych is not available, perhaps your sister too (only if she is open to this), especially if she shared the same experience as you did when you grew up together with her.


I would watch my dad do things, put a new plug on a toaster, whatever. And he would say, “who’s the greatest”? And I would say “you are Daddy”! I myself, was never good enough. He raised the bar really high. I am a perfectionist and I have it pretty bad. I trained as an illustrator and graphic designer before computers. My work is incredibly detailed and very accurate. There is no room for error!

Same as the previous paragraph, use the psych to do a deep dive into this.  If asked by #1, share a brief and shallow version of this, I know there will be a strong pull to use #1 as your therapist.  Let #1, lead the conversation, and share what she wants to know, but don't volunteer more information, as 'oversharing' can be overwhelming in this situation.


I think these things have made me who I am. My father is perhaps a narcissist. He could be autistic too? I was beaten up by him frequently as a child. He smashed everything I owned once and that day the beating was so extreme I thought I was going to die.

Since this has physical abuse in it, talk exclusively with the psych on this.  And if #1 asks (don't volunteer this information), answer using BIFF (briefly as possible).  You know about some of #1's abuse - it is good to inform, but not dwell on this information with one another - it is easy to overshare - let her lead the conversation on how much she wants to know.


So here I am as an adult, 57 years old. I have had two long term relationships in which may have been modelled on my parents. I have been involved with people who behave like my father. I have confused abuse with love. If only I try harder, maybe they will love me? That could be what is holding me in the abuse, as well as feeling sorry for these people.

I am very impressed with your self-awareness, talk to the psych on this as well.  We love what we learned as a child, if it is dysfunctional, our relationships are dysfunctional too.  I've noticed this with my D17's relationship too, both her and her bf are both parentified codependents with uBPD mothers.


This is going to be really difficult to turn around.

Mate, I am going to share something with you - you are years ahead of many on this board, as you are self-aware - this is the hardest part, and you have already done this part in this post.  The next step is getting treatment, identifying the areas you need to change are now easy in comparison (it's still hard, but not 'really difficult').

Make a detailed list for your psych, concentrate on how healthy a relationship with #1 might be, and also mention your FOO issues.  #1 sounds like she is fully aware her own issues, and has already been through a lot of therapy herself and will be much better than #2 & #3, although not perfect - everyone has baggage, she does, you do - as long as each of you can accept that baggage - 'warts and all', you should be okay, and have a comparatively healthy relationship. 

At least initially, since you are limited to 12 sessions per year, you may want to consider paying for a few extra sessions out of pocket, it will be money well spent at the beginning during this transition period.  You can always come back here and ask for advice too.

I do look forward to you updating us.

All you need to say is, "Fine, I agree with you, we are Over. You live your life, I'll live mine.  Good bye."  Then cut all ties.  Delete her email links, her phone number, everything.

If you try to wean yourself away slowly, GF#3 will surely work her way back into your life, continue your misery and make it even harder to call it quits.

And yes, psychologist is definitely needed here.  Not so much to help you decide what to do but to keep you moving forward in the decisions to which you need to stick.

I am in full agreement with FD - once you cut ties, don't look back, and keep moving forward in a healthy manner for you, your son, and possibly #1 too.

Have your sister support you too, and have her hold you accountable to make sure you stay on track for a much more enjoyable and abuse free future in your recovery from abusive relationships.

Even though it seems really hard right now, you need to take these first steps, and each subsequent step will be easier to take.

There are very few people here that I envy - you are one of them - you have a wonderful opportunity to escape with less emotional damage than most here; however, do take precautions to maximize your chances of success by starting and maintaining individual therapy until all of the issues you just mentioned are satisfactorily addressed, and ask your sister to hold you accountable for the new you, 2020.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[ForeverDad]

I believe you need some more 'reality checks' since I get the sense your inclination is to fade away in the threatened "ended" relationship with GF#3.  While that inclination is understandable, that's how we "co-dependent" sort of people want to be nice, that won't work well with people exhibiting BPD push-pull patterns.

If you stop appeasing and start pulling away, she's very likely to stop pushing you away and try to pull you back, even guilt you.  You've been an abused crutch for her, she may hate you but still want you to be inside her comfort zone.

The fact is that you just need to cut her loose.  Picture yourself out there in a boat trolling for something nice.  Instead you hooked a Great White shark.  Cut bait.  Don't quibble.  There's a mermaid out there somewhere.

Of those here who ended their BPD relationships, almost no one will tell you they had a nice 'closure' discussion or still keep in contact over the years.  If you want closure, you'll have to Gift it to yourself.  You won't get closure from GF#3, you'll get the opposite, guilting, blaming, etc.  If you think you can occasionally reach out in future months and years and say Hi, just to be nice and friendly, forget it.  It may go against your inner personality but it is for the best.

Those of us who had children with our disordered exes can't End all contact due to the shared children... but you can since you don't have shared children.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   I agree 100%+ with FD on what he said.  Please gift yourself the best gift you can ever give yourself - I know it seems daunting right now, you are likely scared of the unknown dynamics, it can only get better. 

    Take care.

SD

[2020]

You have all given me much to think about. I am listening to you and it is sobering. I am hearing some very clear ‘run’ or leave messages which I know is rarely suggested where I post usually. I never ever thought I would be ending my relationship, but that is what has to be done.

I have been on bpdfamily for five years and tried to manage the situation and during that time I have seen and experienced things only soldiers or paramedics see. It has taken it’s toll. I am feeling a mixture of sadness and relief. Had this person from my past not reconnected with me, I would still be dodging bullets in the trenches. I would be a fool not to seize the day.

Perhaps the thing with Girlfriend #1 won’t last, or maybe it might? I will be in a much better situation than I am now. I won’t be sitting in an abusive relationship.

It is worth thinking about, for me (and maybe you)… did I really need to wait for someone to come along and release me? I could have or should have done this ages ago. It is scarey how our minds work!

I have a big week ahead. Going to doctor monday to get psychologist referral. Going to get sexual health check up on the suggestion of Girlfriend #1. She has done this already this week. She said she hates being sensible, but needs to protect herself (despite the other night  ). And then I am going to drive up and see her.

Girlfriend #3 has gone missing, probably been rescued by her sister. I am going to have to figure out ending this properly and definitely. There cannot be any blurred edges at all. I appreciate the cold hard reality, ForeverDad.

I will return with update soon, no doubt. Thank you all for your valuable input.

[SaltyDawg]

You have all given me much to think about. I am listening to you and it is sobering. I am hearing some very clear ‘run’ or leave messages which I know is rarely suggested where I post usually. I never ever thought I would be ending my relationship, but that is what has to be done.

This is the 'conflicted' board where 'run' messages are often heard, unlike the 'bettering' board.  'run' messages generally do not occur on the 'bettering' board.  Unless there are children involved, or some other exceptional extenuating circumstance, 'run' is the recommended course of action, especially if there are little to no shared assets like a home mortgage, and so forth.

You must do what is best for 2020, and your son who benefits from your extended care.


I have been on bpdfamily for five years and tried to manage the situation and during that time I have seen and experienced things only soldiers or paramedics see. It has taken it’s toll. I am feeling a mixture of sadness and relief. Had this person from my past not reconnected with me, I would still be dodging bullets in the trenches. I would be a fool not to seize the day.

I can personally attest that it is easier to face the machine gun of a terrorist than it was to deal with the terror my wife gave me with six suicide gestures/attempts and six separate acts of domestic violence on top of countless instances of verbal and psychological abuses, until I took back my life from it being held hostage by my wife with her unreasonable demands and manipulations.  What you are describing it is part of the 'trauma bond' that you are experiencing with #3 - a talking point with the psych that should be explored in depth.

When you end the relationship with #3, for good, you will be grieving as it will be a loss of that relationship.  You already have likely experienced the loss of what the 'angel that she used to be,' it will extend to the physical loss of what you have grown to accept, the abusive relationship you have been in.  You may have experienced a similar loss when you were tossed out on your jack jones with #2.

From what you have shared, other than a $4000 caravan, you share no other finances with #3, as you have lost everything in a flood a few years ago.


Perhaps the thing with Girlfriend #1 won’t last, or maybe it might? I will be in a much better situation than I am now. I won’t be sitting in an abusive relationship.

From what you have described, both you and #1 have a strong probability that you are both co-dependents.  It could be absolutely wonderful, or you could be jumping from one bad situation to another - this is where your therapist (that you will soon have a referral to) and her therapist comes in.  They will help guide you to a healthier relationship dynamic for both of you.  As you are both self-aware of these issues, it is a matter of avoiding the pitfalls of such a relationship, and both of you will have good tools to do this.  I am 99% sure that this will be a better relationship than #3 and #2.


It is worth thinking about, for me (and maybe you)… did I really need to wait for someone to come along and release me? I could have or should have done this ages ago. It is scarey how our minds work!

I agree with you.  It took me several years of therapy to come to that conclusion which shifted the power balance for me - I have posted about this to others, lmk if you want a link to those posts, they are public. 

There is a big difference, is that I have two minor children living with us, and I am actively maneuvering the situation to reverse the damage that has been done, and is being done, and base on how strong willed my wife is, I do have a specific plan on when I will be leaving, I am also setting up for a 2nd career with one of my volunteer job as a trial run, and then post graduate school.

I have also taken steps to reduce financial loss, and the threat of false allegations she has made against me as well.  In my own way, I am making the best of a bad situation.

I have also learned how to setup firm and healthy boundaries, so my wife is being managed to the point where she no longer terrorizes me and there will be consequences for her bad behaviors.


I have a big week ahead. Going to doctor monday to get psychologist referral. Going to get sexual health check up on the suggestion of Girlfriend #1. She has done this already this week. She said she hates being sensible, but needs to protect herself (despite the other night  ). And then I am going to drive up and see her.

I agree that this should be done, especially since #3 most likely has already cheated on you - perhaps be glad that she has chosen to punish you with no sex, as you may not have had the opportunity to receive the *gift* that keeps on giving (a STD from #3's affair partner).  Both of you need to be sensible with this matter; however, I do urge you to take is slowly with sex, as that can so easily cloud our judgements, even though it feels so good, and right.


Girlfriend #3 has gone missing, probably been rescued by her sister. I am going to have to figure out ending this properly and definitely. There cannot be any blurred edges at all. I appreciate the cold hard reality, ForeverDad.

I agree, please consider doing a safety assessment, one of the best ones is free at https://www.mosaicmethod.com/ especially if you think #3 can become violent and/or suicidal - the chocolates being thrown at you qualifies her in this category, for 'female offender'.  It is free, and has just over 30 topics it will ask questions on.

Also, have a safety plan in place, check with the the psych or individual therapist once you see him/her.  https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf especially if you don't know how she will handle the situation.

If you have any specifics on how to do this, the more planning the better, feel free to ask specific questions on this.

I look forward to your update.  Good luck.  Take care.

SD

[Notwendy]

Perhaps the thing with Girlfriend #1 won’t last, or maybe it might? I will be in a much better situation than I am now. I won’t be sitting in an abusive relationship.

From what you have described, both you and #1 have a strong probability that you are both co-dependents.  It could be absolutely wonderful, or you could be jumping from one bad situation to another - this is where your therapist (that you will soon have a referral to) and her therapist comes in.  They will help guide you to a healthier relationship dynamic for both of you.  As you are both self-aware of these issues, it is a matter of avoiding the pitfalls of such a relationship, and both of you will have good tools to do this.  I am 99% sure that this will be a better relationship than #3 and #2.


Our families of origin influence who we are romantically attracted to and who is attracted to us. In some ways, we "match" our partners emotionally-not necessarily with the same disorder- but a familar pattern and also with our boundaries. You have made the connection between the abusive situation you saw between your parents- with GF#3- not in the exact same way they did but in the pattern of tolerating it.

Codependency isn't the same as  BPD but I have read that pwBPD can have co-dependent traits. Many issues can overlap with other ones and also can stand alone and be on a spectrum. People are complicated. Codependent behaviors can exist on their own and also be learned behaviors from childhood-from growing up in a disordered family.

A difference to me is- whether or not the person is insightful and willing to work with a therapist and/or 12 step group- and takes ownership of what they need to work on. Just from the posts I see that GF#1 also has a history of abuse- but she also has been willing to work on it. You have told her about your situation and also are going to work with a therapist. So while one can point out possible issues- this seems to me to be a positive point too.

[seekingtheway]

Gosh, reading this through from start to finish has been a journey in itself. What a turn of events that has led you to really look at all the aspects of your life, and whether you are able to make changes that you need to a more free and happy existence.

I just wanted to add my support in terms of moving yourself away from what is clearly extremely abusive and hurtful behaviour. The advice I got on here was very useful in terms of encouraging me to find the space within myself to know what I needed to do... and I think that's always very useful advice. It would be very hard to hear any thoughts in your own head while you are stuck in a dynamic that challenging and where you are so low down the list of priorities.

I hope that the new woman on the scene can be supportive to you, knowing that this is a very complex emotional situation that you need to disentangle yourself from, and space, time and lots of professional support will be your friends to do that in a healthy way.

I'm really happy that you're allowing yourself to imagine a new way of being.

[2020]

I have an update.

I drove up to see Girlfriend #1 and stayed for three nights. We have met up twice now. Unlike a brand new relationship, we get along just like we used to 35 years ago, almost as if there was never that gap in time. In some respects we have not changed much at all. We talk non-stop about what we have done with our lives, we tell stories, we catch up on what happened to people. It is interesting that our individual opinions about current or recent global or societal events are aligned too.

There was a lot of intimacy. I can report the sex drought is clearly over  . She suggested that we are both probably starved which explains things. We are getting to know each other again. It feels nice to be loved I have to say. I keep telling her I am old and broken but she won’t have a bar of it.

She practices remedial massage and did some work on my shoulder for an hour or so. Felt good to be cared for. She took me out for coffee and bought me a delicious meal. Introduced me to two of her friends whom I liked very much.

It all seems like a dream. I was heading toward the grave not that long ago, but now I am resting and recovering. I am getting little to no BPD feelings about her. If she had not connected with me, I would probably never have been able to break out of my rut and would have died in it. This is a gift.

Having expressed this, I do feel very sad however. Whilst away, Girlfriend #3 messaged me. First she was telling me she isn’t a bad person, then she accused me of slandering her. I did not reply. Then on Wednesday she sent me a photograph of her wrist. All the scars of her previous suicide attempts, plus now a massive amount of bruising. Her arm looks purple. I am unsure what she has done to herself. She wrote “unfortunately, I will never be rid of you completely.”  I told her I can’t help her with this and urged her to seek professional help. She kept repeating “so, are we over?” I told her I was away and would speak to her when I got back.

Yesterday I messaged her and said I had returned. I suggested we talk. She asked me when was I going to dump her via text. I said I was not in the business of dumping people. I asked how she was going and she said she was broken. Blamed it all on my son. I got caught in one of those JADE situations but managed to tell her that I our relationship had deteriorated to a point where it is damaging us. My health has never been worse. I said I cannot be in a relationship with this abuse in it. I expressed I needed to focus on myself and needed to end it.

She apologised for her behaviour, saying she never wanted it to end up like this. I got the expected “have a nice life”, “I wish you and your family health and happiness”, and “all my love xxx”… I have not messaged her since yesterday.

I feel really very sad about it all. It makes me feel ill thinking about it. And I do miss her in all honesty. I am in limbo, in a grey area between two relationships. Girlfriend #1 is very kind to me, yet I feel a sense of betrayal with #3. I wish I could have had the good sense to end my abusive relationship years ago and been single for a while. It is a bit messy, all of this. When I think of all the drinking, smashing things, physical violence, mental torture and such, I feel leaving #3 is for the best. Yet I still feel very upset and sick in the stomach. I will miss her. It’s a long way to ‘happily ever after’ yet.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   Thank you for coming back and updating us.

   I am really really happy for you, that you were able to get out of the abusive #3 relationship, and the questions you are asking yourself, and the observations you are making of yourself seem really insightful, and it would seem that you are very surprised by your recent actions and behaviors.

   I will continue to reflect, and ask a few questions designed to make you think.  This time it will seem like I am playing 'devil's advocate' with you -  it is not my intention to upset you; however, it is my intention to shine a light on what is happening.


I drove up to see Girlfriend #1 and stayed for three nights. We have met up twice now. Unlike a brand new relationship, we get along just like we used to 35 years ago, almost as if there was never that gap in time. In some respects we have not changed much at all. We talk non-stop about what we have done with our lives, we tell stories, we catch up on what happened to people. It is interesting that our individual opinions about current or recent global or societal events are aligned too.

   You have 35 years to catch up on, everything is 'new and exciting' again.  Enjoy it, especially as you have similar opinions to each other.  I am trying not to poo poo on this; however, please be sure to take turns on this, my uBPDw also reflected to me what I wanted to hear during the courtship phase.  Let #1 lead for a while on her opinions and point of view, without giving her hints on what your opinion is.  If she ask you a specific question, ask her to express herself first on the topic, and compare your opinion to hers.  If she is asking you first all of the time, and insists you give your opinion first, and then she is agreeing with you, this might be a .  Let her lead with her opinions for a while.


There was a lot of intimacy. I can report the sex drought is clearly over  . She suggested that we are both probably starved which explains things. We are getting to know each other again. It feels nice to be loved I have to say. I keep telling her I am old and broken but she won’t have a bar of it.

This seems a bit fast; and the chemicals released in each of you will intensify your emotional bonding really fast - if this is healthy, it is great; however, if there are any flags, they can easily be missed right now as your mind is currently in a state of 'bliss' and will miss most warning signs except the most obvious ones.


She practices remedial massage and did some work on my shoulder for an hour or so. Felt good to be cared for. She took me out for coffee and bought me a delicious meal. Introduced me to two of her friends whom I liked very much.

She has done all of this for you, which is really nice.  However, what have you done for her?  A relationship should be 50/50 or pretty close to it.  Make sure you can give back to her, and this is not a one-way street.  If she gives you some really expensive gifts (a few hundred dollars or more), this might be a flag.


It all seems like a dream. I was heading toward the grave not that long ago, but now I am resting and recovering. I am getting little to no BPD feelings about her. If she had not connected with me, I would probably never have been able to break out of my rut and would have died in it. This is a gift.

It is a gift, and yes you have been able to break out of your rut.  I too was able to break out of a much worse relationship to be in my present one - I can say without a doubt, even though it too is with a pwBPD I am in a much better place than I was before - the warning signs that I could recognize in my current relationship didn't appear until 2 years 5 months into the relationship.


Having expressed this, I do feel very sad however. Whilst away, Girlfriend #3 messaged me. First she was telling me she isn’t a bad person, then she accused me of slandering her. I did not reply. Then on Wednesday she sent me a photograph of her wrist. All the scars of her previous suicide attempts, plus now a massive amount of bruising. Her arm looks purple. I am unsure what she has done to herself. She wrote “unfortunately, I will never be rid of you completely.”  I told her I can’t help her with this and urged her to seek professional help. She kept repeating “so, are we over?” I told her I was away and would speak to her when I got back.

I agree with what you did on this.  Also tell yourself:  I did not cause this, I cannot control this, and I cannot cure this.


Yesterday I messaged her and said I had returned. I suggested we talk. She asked me when was I going to dump her via text. I said I was not in the business of dumping people. I asked how she was going and she said she was broken. Blamed it all on my son. I got caught in one of those JADE situations but managed to tell her that I our relationship had deteriorated to a point where it is damaging us. My health has never been worse. I said I cannot be in a relationship with this abuse in it. I expressed I needed to focus on myself and needed to end it.

She apologised for her behaviour, saying she never wanted it to end up like this. I got the expected “have a nice life”, “I wish you and your family health and happiness”, and “all my love xxx”… I have not messaged her since yesterday.

I think you handled the final meeting quite well.  Do not let-on you have another woman in your life as that will enrage them, at least for a month, no need to volunteer this information, and if on confronted, avoid answering the question if you cannot tell a white lie.  Now is a good time to go NC (no-contact) as that will also minimize her asking about your personal life.  Now you must prepare for her to try and re-enter your life with h00vering, or a recycle attempt, probably a much more aggressive one than she has done before.  In my situation, it was months later; however, it could be hours, it could be days, it could be weeks, or even months down the road - and this will pull on your heart strings - you need to be 100% firm that you do not want to go back with her (in a kind way).


I feel really very sad about it all. It makes me feel ill thinking about it. And I do miss her in all honesty. I am in limbo, in a grey area between two relationships. Girlfriend #1 is very kind to me, yet I feel a sense of betrayal with #3.

This is 100% a natural and expected feeling, while this feeling will weaken with time, it will remain with you always.  Please address this in therapy with the psychologist that you are going to see.


I wish I could have had the good sense to end my abusive relationship years ago and been single for a while. It is a bit messy, all of this. When I think of all the drinking, smashing things, physical violence, mental torture and such, I feel leaving #3 is for the best.

Hindsight is nearly always 20/20 [pun intended ].  You are in a much better place now, even if you have mixed and conflicted feelings.  You have left the fire, and are now in the comparatively cool frying pan that has just been placed on the stove - just make sure the heat in the pan is not too hot and is something that you both can agree upon.


Yet I still feel very upset and sick in the stomach. I will miss her. It’s a long way to ‘happily ever after’ yet.

You will continue to miss her, the wound is fresh right now, and as time marches on, it will eventually become a distant memory that will leave a permanent scar on your soul.

Right now you are feeling a lot of FOG - Fear that #3 is going to hurt herself, and possibly kill herself, so you feel Obligated to stay with #3, to take care of her, and you are feeling Guilty that you are abandoning #3 - when combined this is making you feel very upset and sick to the stomach.  Please use 'wise mind' to work through this, as you know, logical mind that this is the right thing to do, even though your emotional mind you are racked with these feelings - this is something that you should work on with your therapist.

Keep in mind your 'happily ever after' wasn't even on your mind a month ago, now it is, you can see it, and it is now close enough that it is within your grasp, yet, you don't want to jinx yourself by thinking it is too far away to grasp.  It will take time to adjust to the new life of and for 2020.

Don't forget about your son, after a month, let him know (if you haven't already).  Ask your sister, to keep tabs on you to make sure this goes in an emotionally healthy direction, as it sounds like she has your back.  Do follow up with therapy, at least for the transition period, it will be well worth the investment in time and any payments you might make.

I personally think you have done an excellent job, your life is turning around for the better - enjoy the ride, wherever it may take you.

Take care.

SD

P.S. We are here for you if things go badly for #3, or even if there are issues with #1.  Please check-in from time to time, as just about everyone here wants to hear a success story, and yours is shaping up to be one.

[ForeverDad]

Now is a good time to go NC (no-contact) as that will also minimize her asking about your personal life.  Now you must prepare for her to try and re-enter your life with h00vering, or a recycle attempt, probably a much more aggressive one than she has done before.  In my situation, it was months later; however, it could be hours, it could be days, it could be weeks, or even months down the road - and this will pull on your heart strings - you need to be 100% firm that you do not want to go back with her (in a kind way).

Those of us with shared children can't go NC since there will always be parenting issues, weddings, grandchildren, etc.  You however can go NC.  In fact, that is is usually for the best.  Whether it is you or the ex, breaking NC brings back all the issues of the past that were unresolvable and still are unresolvable.

Sadly, NC is best.  Your ex will not Gift you any closure.  If you allow her back into your life the Blaming, Blame Shifting and Guilting will resume.  She's an adult, you've already pointed her to professional therapy, the relationship is 100% over, stick with that practical answer like a dog with a bone.  Because she almost surely will seek you out again.

Which is why I suggested, once it is ended, that you stop all contact.  Nothing good will come of letting her back into your life.

This is what I meant when I said to give yourself Time to Recover.  It became a negative part of your life and you can't recover all at once.  Ending the relationship is hopefully a single Event but Recovery is a Process.

[Notwendy]

Having expressed this, I do feel very sad however. Whilst away, Girlfriend #3 messaged me. First she was telling me she isn’t a bad person, then she accused me of slandering her.

I did not reply. Then on Wednesday she sent me a photograph of her wrist. All the scars of her previous suicide attempts, plus now a massive amount of bruising. 

 Blamed it all on my son.

My health has never been worse. I said I cannot be in a relationship with this abuse in it. I expressed I needed to focus on myself and needed to end it.



I feel really very sad about it all. It makes me feel ill thinking about it. And I do miss her in all honesty.

 I will miss her. It’s a long way to ‘happily ever after’ yet.

I wanted to highlight some of these responses. Note that- while GF#3 has been abusive to you, she doesn't assume accoutability for her behavior.

Her perspective is as victim- blaming your son- who has nothing to do with this.

Showing you her arms- attempting to make you responsible for her own self harm behavior. You didn't do that to her. This is her decision to do that.

You miss some aspects of the relationship. Relationships are rarely all good or all bad, but regardless, you know this relationship is bad for you. The abuse cycle can feel addictive. You could miss her like an alcoholic misses alcohol when they stop drinking, until they get sober and realize it's better for them to be sober.

Saying she isn't a bad person. One doesn't have to be a bad person to do hurtful things.  Abuse isn't always motivated by someone being evil. She has a mental illness that affects her thinking and emotions and acts out in abusive ways, and no matter what the motive, an abusive relationship is hurtful. You can see how it isn't good for you to be in one and also, you being in one has not changed this for her. You are not responsible for her having BPD.

Forever Dad makes a good point- you have the opportunity to go NC with this person. Not everyone has this option. If two people are co-parenting children, they can not have no contact with each other. Recovery is a process. You have become accustomed to the abuse cycle and your behavior in the relationship. Contact with her is an emotional relapse- for both of you.

[2020]

SaltyDawg, you have written another book chapter! And ForeverDad, you don’t mince your words. Thank you for your support.

I have felt like crap all day over the tragedy with Girlfriend #3. I have such a long history with her; 16 years total with 10 of them officially in relationship. I have had no further messages from her since yesterday. The temptation to check up on her is there though. Sad as it is, you are right, it is over and no good will come from it.

I spoke with Girlfriend #1 today. I sense she has her own anxiety issues. She worries I might not be that into her. She obviously likes me enough! It seems like we have both dealt with unwell people in relationship before.

I was telling her about love-bombing and she laughed and said she hopes I don’t think she is doing that! She is a very beautiful caring woman. At least we are able to have open honest communication. We both are thinking this seems too good to be true and have our own suspicions about each other. Perhaps we are both looking for red flags? We have agreed to slow down a little, not make any huge commitments just yet, just enjoy each others’ company.

SaltyDawg, I will certainly be keeping an eye on the flow of the giving and receiving. I am the type of person who likes to give gifts but feels undeserving receiving them. I spent years giving to Girlfriend #3. She received chocolates and flowers every week and I opened car doors for her like she was royalty… and still I was called an autistic little boy ! I am allowing myself to experience the receiving, and I am enjoying it. I am probably starving for it. I will look after her well. She has already had flowers on both visits!

I really feel for those with shared children. I did this with my second relationship and it hasn’t been easy.  It means a lot to hear I might be a success story here. I could not have done this without your guidance everyone. I feel like the luckiest man alive. I can’t   this up! I doubt I would have got out of my relationship if she hadn’t reconnected. It was only going to get worse.

I will see her (#1) in a week or so. I will keep a look out for those flags!    

[2020]

Hello Notwendy,

You have highlighted some important points for me to remember, moving forward. I did not cause her BPD. I certainly thought I could change it, if only I tried harder. I don’t know what else I could have done. It has been a difficult struggle for a decade or so. The suicide attempts have been extreme. I am surprised she survived one of them. She went on to tell her family I drove her to it. I need to try push all of this into the past. I have a lot on my plate. I don’t want to hurt anyone. I need to think about Girlfriend #1. And I need to certainly think about me! This process needs to be about detatching, as well as building a new healthy relationship.

“Not everyone has this option”. I will keep this at the front of my mind.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

We are still here for you - it sounds like you are processing your feelings in a very healthy way, as disturbing as it is for you - I would be very concerned if you didn't feel this way.

I have felt like crap all day over the tragedy with Girlfriend #3. I have such a long history with her; 16 years total with 10 of them officially in relationship. I have had no further messages from her since yesterday. The temptation to check up on her is there though. Sad as it is, you are right, it is over and no good will come from it.

16 years is a long time to be someone, I am sure there have been many good memories throughout this  timeframe, and the good memories are generally stronger than the bad ones, as our minds want to suppress the bad ones in favor of the good ones.  However, go back to all of the posts you have made on this site over the years, use this as a reminder of how bad it really was for you with #3. 

You are a caretaker, just as most of us are here, this is the personality type that borderlines actively seek out, as they want to be cared for.  Now that I am aware of this, I can see this quite clearly. 

The temptation is strong to check up on her, to make sure she is okay, that is what people who care-take others do, it is a form of 'people pleasing'.  This week will be especially tough to do this, as you have not done this before (at least for 16 or more years), it is a new behavior pattern for you - you are in a state of transition, and there is a risk of reverting back to old comfortable behaviors, much like an alcoholic goes back to the bottle - resist these urges, have someone hold you accountable - perhaps your sister.


I spoke with Girlfriend #1 today. I sense she has her own anxiety issues. She worries I might not be that into her. She obviously likes me enough! It seems like we have both dealt with unwell people in relationship before.

Mate, I am going to be upfront with you - people like us, each of us have our own issues to deal with (whether or not we can admit to them).  As you indicated you both have dealt with unwell people in your respective relationships - this is a common theme here - I am on my 2nd borderline relationship, and you also have had two borderlines or borderline-like relationships, #2 & #3 - you need to figure out why you are a 'borderline magnet' - I worked with a psychologist and a LCSW-S (licensed clinical social worker - supervisor level) to figure this out, as other borderlines seem to be quite attracted to me - I attract crazy.  I have developed CRAYDAR (CRAYzyRADar) for myself, a slang term where I can detect their behaviors very easily before - before I was aware of BPD I was oblivious to it.

I urge you to follow through on your own psychologist appointment that you mentioned a few posts back so you can sort out your feelings and perceptions on this.


I was telling her about love-bombing and she laughed and said she hopes I don’t think she is doing that! She is a very beautiful caring woman. At least we are able to have open honest communication. We both are thinking this seems too good to be true and have our own suspicions about each other. Perhaps we are both looking for red flags? We have agreed to slow down a little, not make any huge commitments just yet, just enjoy each others’ company.

It is natural, that both of you have these anxiety issues, and since both of you have the 'too good to be true' sentiment, it sounds like you both are in very similar places as far as your own emotional well being.  It is good to keep your eyes open, and be aware of these issues.  It is also good to consult someone you trust in this relationship, an independent 3rd party, like a psychologist/therapist.  Also, a good friend or loved one, like your sister for her opinion.

While it is good to go in with eyes wide open, on the flip side of the coin, you don't want these issues of anxiety to smother the relationship's potential either - it is a balance, a therapist would be good here to help guide you.

Slowing down is a good thing; however, 'stopping' is not, unless there are red flags .

Love bombing, when is it healthy and when is it unhealthy?  The beginning of a relationship there will be a lot of things that look like love bombing, but isn't.  It all boils down to the 'intent' on these behaviors, if it is intended to manipulate and monopolize each other's time where you become dependent on one another, this is love bombing.  There are many articles on this topic, I would suggest reading them, a quick google search will reveal them, make a list of questions that concern you, and ask your therapist.  Since you and her both have codependent traits, there will likely be some level of love bombing present - this is where your respective therapists come in and help you sort through this if it is at a healthy level or an unhealthy one.


SaltyDawg, I will certainly be keeping an eye on the flow of the giving and receiving. I am the type of person who likes to give gifts but feels undeserving receiving them. I spent years giving to Girlfriend #3. She received chocolates and flowers every week and I opened car doors for her like she was royalty… and still I was called an autistic little boy ! I am allowing myself to experience the receiving, and I am enjoying it. I am probably starving for it. I will look after her well. She has already had flowers on both visits!

Feeling 'undeserving' of receiving gifts is a codependent trait / pattern - I have the same pattern, and right now for me, this is the most impactful pattern for me to address in myself.  Flowers is okay, as is buying her meals that are inexpensive, as long as there is reciprocity, she does stuff for you too.  It is when it is one-sided like with #3 where it becomes an issue.  Just keep your eyes open; be mindful of reciprocity; however, do enjoy yourself and don't over-analyze the situation


I really feel for those with shared children. I did this with my second relationship and it hasn’t been easy.

I know you haven't talked much about #2 here; however, would you mind sharing with us if #2 keeps in touch with your son?  I seem to recall you also had another child with #2 as well, and do you keep in touch with that child and/or #2 - what is that relationship like?


It means a lot to hear I might be a success story here. I could not have done this without your guidance everyone. I feel like the luckiest man alive. I can’t   this up! I doubt I would have got out of my relationship if she hadn’t reconnected. It was only going to get worse.

Yes, you are very lucky - carpe diem, seize the day, on this opportunity.  I can understand you are very worried that you don't want to F*** this up.  I think you addressed this aspect with your mutual feelings of anxiety.  Taking your time, not rushing is a good thing; however, you do want to avoid analysis paralysis where you don't move forward in a healthy way.


I will see her (#1) in a week or so. I will keep a look out for those flags!    

Keep your eyes open to those flags; however, don't dwell on them, unless your 'gut feeling' tells you to, and then see a therapist on those feeling, and/or come here for a 2nd opinion.


I did not cause her BPD. I certainly thought I could change it, if only I tried harder. I don’t know what else I could have done. It has been a difficult struggle for a decade or so. The suicide attempts have been extreme. I am surprised she survived one of them. She went on to tell her family I drove her to it. I need to try push all of this into the past. I have a lot on my plate. I don’t want to hurt anyone.

No, you did not cause her mental illness.  It is magical thinking to think you can change this if you only tried harder. 

I will give you a heads up on what to expect, #3 will likely contact you once she has processed you are not going to contact her - right now she has pulled away, and is expecting you to follow her, she is testing where you are at with her behaviors since she has sensed a change.  Once you do not follow-her, by checking up on her, as you have done in the past, she will become worried, and is likely to launch some kind of campaign to get you back, and it may become very emotionally charged - an extinction burst.  Since you mentioned her family, she may enlist them as her 'flying monkeys' to aid her in doing this.  Please mentally prepare yourself for this, as you have explicitly stated that you do not want to mess things up with #1 - you must not interact with #3 (unless it is to wrap up paperwork, or the authorities, and then keep it BIFF).

Do not delete the graphic images she has sent you, keep them as a reminder why you are distancing yourself from #3.  If it escalates, you can use them to demonstrate her mental instability.


I need to think about Girlfriend #1. And I need to certainly think about me! This process needs to be about detaching, as well as building a new healthy relationship.

I think you are right on target, stay focused on doing what is best for you, your son, and how #1 can be part of your lives in a healthy way.


Take care.

SD

[ForeverDad]

We're not overly suspicious of your renewed acquaintance with GF#1.  We just want you to be alert, take things at a subdued pace but it very well could turn out just fine.  Time will tell.

I'm reminded that many here have found healthy relationships after experiencing life with acting-out PDs.  livednlearned and kells76 are testimony to that, and they are the better for it. Though it isn't all cakes and roses, they too have had to deal with others with PD issues.

[2020]

I am having a lot of difficulty with this. It is not as easy as I imagined.

On the one hand I have Girlfriend #1 wondering how enmeshed I am with #3. She doesn’t want to be a bandaid as I heal from #3 which is totally understandable. She is questioning whether I might find her boring if I don’t have all that drama in my life anymore. She asked whether I had thought about the idea of being in abusive relationships might be a self harm thing. I have a lot to think about. She can be very direct and upfront. I am finding it challenging.

Girlfriend #3 has been messaging me. I have responded, which is perhaps not a good idea. I can’t maintain boundaries. I do not want to be a cruel cold person. She sounds very sad and has expressed remorse about her past behaviour. It is really tugging at my heart strings. She is asking to be friends, and I have read about this sort of thing here.

I am thinking today that maybe there is a third way. Perhaps I need time alone. Maybe I need to become single. This Austin Powers lifestyle is not me!  The fact I am either in relationship with #3, or at the tail end of that relationship, or just out of that relationship and raw, is causing friction with moving forward with #1 (or anyone for that matter). There is a lot of sadness and guilt I am feeling towards #3 if I am honest about it. Perhaps this is understandable after so long.

I wake up in the morning and it all hits me, and I think Oh F . So what do I do? Should I just explain to both that I need to be single and not in relationship for a while? I have a lot of ‘baggage’. I am doubting I can be with anyone without f up their heads or lives. I really don’t want to be that person.

Maybe it is time to be alone? Perhaps I should sort myself out first before getting intimately involved with another human? What seemed so perfect is falling apart around me. I don’t know what the right thing to do is. I have now got myself in a bigger mess than ever. I wish I could just vanish.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

It sounds as though you are really conflicted and FOG is getting the better of you right now.

I am having a lot of difficulty with this. It is not as easy as I imagined.

It is very difficult, you are dealing with a lot of new emotions, with a lot of uncertainty - and this can be very frightening, not to mention feeling helpless and insecure in your decision.  Hopefully I can shed some light on the subject, as this is your choice alone to make. 

You haven't mentioned much of what your sister thinks of these new developments, good or bad, would you mind sharing them with us?  She is perhaps the closest advocate with the best understanding of the situation that you are in - what is her opinion?


On the one hand I have Girlfriend #1 wondering how enmeshed I am with #3. She doesn’t want to be a bandaid as I heal from #3 which is totally understandable.

I can understand #1's perspective, if you are dealing with the issues of #3, it could easily overwhelm #1, and her own issues could put a barrier / boundary between you and #1.  Likewise, your own emotional doubts and fears of ending your relationship with #3 could also put up a barrier with #1.  This is why I am encouraging you to not share too much with #1, but share it with a therapist and/or a confidant with whom you can trust, you have previously indicated your sister may be of emotional support in this matter - if I were you, I would go to your therapist, and get a 2nd opinion from your sister, from what you have shared here, these are the two people to seek out advice on what is best for you, 2020.  What do you think?


She is questioning whether I might find her boring if I don’t have all that drama in my life anymore. She asked whether I had thought about the idea of being in abusive relationships might be a self harm thing. I have a lot to think about. She can be very direct and upfront. I am finding it challenging.

What do you think?  Do you think you will find life without drama too boring?  I know a drama free life is something I long for, and I have been taking active steps with my uBPDw, and my children, who have their own issues to reduce the amount of drama - for the most part I like it.  I find my drama here at BPD Family, and at a volunteer job, and this can, at times, be somewhat overwhelming for me, as I tend to converse the more highly conflicted people where physical violence and suicide attempts have occurred.  If you want a 'drama fix', just come here, or do volunteer work in a related area.  If you want peace and quiet, figure out what you want, and then 'do it'.  What are your thought's on this?

Regards to the comment on 'self-harming' with bad relationships - ouch, that is a low blow.  For me, being in these kinds of relationships are harmful, I recognized the first borderline relationship as being harmful, so I left, and did not look back; however, my 2nd borderline which is the present one with my wife, is a lot more subtle.  Do I consider this a form of self-harm, for me in my relationships, I don't think so, since I left the previous one, and I do have plans to leave the current one, once both of our children have left (unless she works hard at fixing her remaining issues) and I am slowly detaching from my wife, putting more distance between her and me.  The only person who can answer this question about you, is you.  If you share in depth with a therapist, this is an excellent topic of conversation with them.  The fact that #1 is challenging you by being upfront and direct on your feelings, this actually a green-flag, even though it is very uncomfortable for you, as she is likely perceiving your responses as a to her, or perhaps a more serious (my reasoning not to 'overshare' with #1 - seek out the advice of a licensed professional for this) from her perspective.


Girlfriend #3 has been messaging me. I have responded, which is perhaps not a good idea. I can’t maintain boundaries. I do not want to be a cruel cold person. She sounds very sad and has expressed remorse about her past behaviour. It is really tugging at my heart strings. She is asking to be friends, and I have read about this sort of thing here.

You have an anxious attachment style, where you love others more than you love yourself.  No-one wants to be a cruel and cold person; however, right now you are faced with a dilemma - you can only have one relationship, and whichever relationship you choose will hurt the other's feelings.  You must choose what is best for you - not #1, and not #3 either.  Use wise-mind to choose.

I will remind with #3, you have been with for 16 years, 10 of which you have been intimate with.  This person has thrown stuff at you, cheated on you in the middle of the night with another, self-harms and has attempted suicide and is verbally and psychologically abusive plus anything else I have not mentioned here.  #3 has NOT been in any meaningful therapy, and accuses you for her issues.  I did warn you to expect new behaviors to get you back (h00ver you back in for a recycle), expressing remorse if it is a new behavior, she is escalating her behavior, as her old behavior is no longer effective as her fear of abandonment has kicked into high gear with your right here and now - please give yourself some space, so you can think clearly about this situation.

Three things must be present for a relationship with #3 to be on the mends, #1 - she must be self-aware that she is messed up (from what you have described, she is self-aware), #2 - she must be dedicated to seeking meaningful therapy, for a borderline, this ideally would be DBT, with both a weekly individual session, and a weekly group therapy session in an intensive outpatient setting for two years, and #3 - a good moral compass where she will not cheat on you nor intentionally abuse/manipulate you, nor blame you for her behaviors.  From what you have shared, she only has met the first criteria, and that could be something new.  If you were to go back to #3, you will be stuck in what you have been stuck in for the past decade plus, with much less than 1% of it actually working out, as her past behaviors are indicative of her future ones.  If you truly believe that #3 has changed with genuine remorse, ask her to prove that she has accepted a diagnosis of being BPD/EUPD or at a minimum of having the traits, and she is actively seeking an approved IOP program for recovery.  Her answer on this, will give you guidance on what you should do.  If she refuses, refuse to be with her.  If she accepts, ask to attend her therapy (this will give you an indication if she is being honest) as emotional support and get her to agree not to see her affair partner ever again (this too will give you an idea on how committed she is to you) - if she refuses these, then refuse to be with her, as you have boundaries.  Even if she agrees to all of this your chances at a meaningful relationship is still less than 10%, right now it is less than 1%. 

On the other hand, you have #1, your first love with whom you had gotten her pregnant back in the late 1980's and her mum broke you guys up, and you reconnected, only to break up again, when she went on a date with someone at university - back then you had a healthy boundary that you implemented.  #1 seems to be self-aware of her issues, and has addressed her issues in meaningful therapy for herself, and seems to have a reasonably good moral compass and is asking some very pertinent questions.  Since both of you are likely anxiously attached, the chances of a meaningful relationship that feels good (with some codependent challenges) is 45%-90%; however, there is a risk of it developing into another relationship similar to a borderline one, from statistics, this would be around 10-12% based on both of your past histories of attracting these kinds of relationships.


I am thinking today that maybe there is a third way. Perhaps I need time alone. Maybe I need to become single. This Austin Powers lifestyle is not me!  The fact I am either in relationship with #3, or at the tail end of that relationship, or just out of that relationship and raw, is causing friction with moving forward with #1 (or anyone for that matter). There is a lot of sadness and guilt I am feeling towards #3 if I am honest about it. Perhaps this is understandable after so long.

It seems you are painfully aware of the issues here.  This is definitely an alternative, and from what you wrote earlier, it would seem that #1 is willing to wait a short while while you sort out your feelings.  A month, perhaps two doing this would be in order, in the meantime work on yourself with a licensed therapist, and bounce ideas off a confidante that you trust.  Please be mindful, that you are a 50 something male, and as one of my therapists aptly pointed out to me, men in the age group are at an advantage at finding love again over their female counterparts.


I wake up in the morning and it all hits me, and I think Oh F . So what do I do? Should I just explain to both that I need to be single and not in relationship for a while? I have a lot of ‘baggage’. I am doubting I can be with anyone without f up their heads or lives. I really don’t want to be that person.

Maybe it is time to be alone? Perhaps I should sort myself out first before getting intimately involved with another human? What seemed so perfect is falling apart around me. I don’t know what the right thing to do is. I have now got myself in a bigger mess than ever. I wish I could just vanish.

Mate, seek out a qualified licensed professional to help you sort out these feelings of yours.  You are overthinking this situation, and it is giving you a lot of anxiety here. 

I won't tell you what to do here, as this is entirely up to you.  However, knowing what I know, and if I were in your shoes, I would #1 - actively seek advise from a licensed professional, pay for additional sessions to expedite the process as 12x/year from public health is insufficient, #2 - Take it slow, but reconnect as friends with #1 for at least a month, perhaps two before becoming sexual, #3 - Detach with grace from #3 who has been abusive, do not share that you are with #1 with her, encourage her to get professional help for her issues, and emotionally distance myself from her, as you no longer want to subject yourself to her abusive behaviors - also by distancing herself from her, she will be less likely to self-harm and attempt suicide in the future, as you are not available to be manipulated.  If she crosses boundaries, implement NC.  But, that's me, if I were in your shoes. 

However, you must do you, 2020, being mindful that there are consequences for each and every action you do with both #1, #3, yourself, and your son too (to a lesser extent).  #1 or #3 will get hurt - there is no getting around that, or you will hurt both of them, and yourself in the process too.  How you conduct yourself from this point forward will determine the amount that each receives.  I know you don't want to hurt anyone; however, that is not an option.  In the previous two messages, I showed a path with the least amount of hurt, you can still return to this path, with a little added hurt to both 1 & 3 that has already been done.

You are obviously conflicted, seek out the advice of a licensed professional (I am only a peer) in this matter.

I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you can find a path forward, as it is getting less clear for you.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[ForeverDad]

Perhaps I need time alone. Maybe I need to become single...

Maybe it is time to be alone? Perhaps I should sort myself out first before getting intimately involved with another human?

Go back to my first post on this thread.  There I mentioned that your current relationship was essentially ended by your GF.  It was unhealthy since she was keeping you isolated from her yet left "simmering" on the back burner, to use a stove top analogy.

As predicted, she has sensed you echoing the pseudo End she's relegated you to and is now trying to guilt you back into her life.  Has she changed into a healthy person so suddenly?  No, there are no instant recoveries.

Boundaries are so important.  You will never get her to formulate her own good boundaries, you should have learned that after over a decade with her.  But YOU can set good boundaries for yourself... and stick to them.

As I warned, relapsing back into communication with her is not helpful for you.  If there is no hope after all these years for a functional and healthy relationship with her - which you already know - then (1) truly ending the relationship and (2) ending contact is a must.

Don't be discouraged if/when you fail, as we all know with addictions, relapses are not uncommon.  The question is whether you see them for what they are, "falling off the wagon", and "get right back on the healthy wagon".

That brings me to another part of that prior post... give yourself time to recover.  A rebound relationship can be problematic in that it is "too soon".  Doesn't mean you have to cut out all renewed contact with your first love.  But as you pondered, you could well use some "alone time" to reorient yourself and perspectives.

I wrote this too: "I recall one mistake I made, a common one, I kept talking about my parenting struggles with my ex.  It's one thing to inform, quite another to keep reverting to the angst from the past failed relationships."  Ask yourself, Am I able to stop recounting obsessively my issues with the prior relationship?  If the ex is constantly dragged into the conversation, then you would benefit with more recovery time.

[Notwendy]

I think GF#1 has raised a legitimate concern. If you had shared with her that you were unhappy with GF #3, she may have assumed you were ready to give that relationship up. Now that she has seen it's more complicated than that, she is asking about it.

I agree with FD that taking some alone time in this situation is a good idea, since it is soon and you are trying to collect your thoughts. I also agree that it doesn't mean you have to have no relationship with GF #1.

Your relationship as a teen resulted in a pregnancy. To experience and lose a pregnancy is also emotionally traumatic. It's possible that this one reason for why GF#1 contacted you- to get some answers and closure for herself- and then the relationship took off from there as you were both willing to pursue it.

You both acted on the feelings you had as teens/20's but now you have the task of interacting as adults and assessing if you two are compatible as you are now. You also have the task of resolving your connection with GF#3. This is difficult work on your part- but it also may be an opportunity to see where the relationship with GF #1 leads to. You didn't have the emotional capacity as a teen to do this- no teens do- but you do have this opportunity as an adult now.

[Pook075]

I am having a lot of difficulty with this. It is not as easy as I imagined.

On the one hand I have Girlfriend #1 wondering how enmeshed I am with #3. She doesn’t want to be a bandaid as I heal from #3 which is totally understandable. She is questioning whether I might find her boring if I don’t have all that drama in my life anymore. She asked whether I had thought about the idea of being in abusive relationships might be a self harm thing. I have a lot to think about. She can be very direct and upfront. I am finding it challenging.

Question- is girlfriend #3 still your girlfriend?  Have you actually broke up with her?  And would you say you're in a relationship with #1?

I think you're correct in assuming that you should be single right now- and dating while single is perfectly okay.  You're exiting a traumatic relationship and if you don't take the time to heal from that, you're just going to carry all your other baggage right into this new relationship and possibly ruin it.

Take your time.  Heal.  Grow.  Then see what's there with #1.  Definitely end things with #3 though.

[Cat Familiar]

What keeps you clinging to someone who treats you so badly?

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   Everyone is being very supportive of you right now, and there are a lot of good ideas, questions, and recommendations.

   I meant to ask you a very important question from my last post.... I will pose a few hypothetical situations...

   If your son was in the situation that you are now in, what would you recommend your son to do, go with #1, try and help #3, leave both to sort out his feelings?  I am curious as to how you would guide your son if he was faced with a similar predicament?

   Same questions, with gender reversals for your dear sister?  If she had two guys wanting her attention, one was really good to her (a high school sweetheart who has finally come back), and the other terribly abusive boyfriend, who she wants to fix and won't leave.  What would you recommend for your sister?

   Here is another hypothetical question if your sister was in the position of your GF #1, what would you recommend to your sister?  What conditions would her high school sweetheart have to meet in order to date him, if her highschool sweetheart was still enmeshed in a very abusive relationship?

   I often find it useful to look at the situation from a different 3rd person perspective, and what I would recommend to someone else (other than one's self) on how to handle a particular situation.

   What do you think?  I am curious as to what your answers might be?

   Take care of yourself 2020, and your son too.

SD

[2020]

I am going to see the new psychologist in a few hours. I am still as confused as ever.

Girlfriend #3 has been messaging me. Same story; saying she is sorry and that she misses me. I have told her I cannot be in a relationship with her, that we have had frequent conflict and a lot of abuse, and that I need to be alone. So I am getting the ‘can we be friends’ messages. It is just a nightmare really. It makes me very sad. And then last night she was sending drunken poems to me.

In the meantime Girlfriend #1 is ringing me and we talk for hours on end. She messages me during the day. There has been an incident where we disagreed on something and she took offense to my words. I guess I can be very direct at times and forget somebody is on the receiving end. She has been asking about whether I have contact with #3. I am being honest without giving details away. I’d say she is interested in a relationship with me.

It is unfortunate this could not have happened when I was absolutely single, around 2004 to 2009 or so. I would have jumped at this then. Having #3 still in my life is going to be the end of this. I don’t think I would be persisting with a woman who still had the man from her last relationship messaging her every day.

I think I might just have to hide away for a while. Part of me thinks I should not have a relationship with anyone. And then I wonder if it is because I don’t want to upset these two women. It is as if I will rather miss out on something better in order to not upset someone, perhaps #3. Is that what this is? I don’t have a cell/mobile phone because I dont like answering them. I could quite easily just go offline five days a week in order to escape this. I am seriously reclusive. It is just a lot easier not being involved with other humans.

Pook, I have only just indicated to #3 it needs to end. I have had the messages of understanding, the apologies, and can we be friends. It is obviously very hard moving on from a BPD relationship. My boundaries are gray. I thought I wanted a relationship with #1, but now I think perhaps it is best just to be alone.

SaltyDawg, your hypothetical questions are helpful. I would recommend leaving #3, sorting out your own problems before getting involved with #1 or anyone.

Cat, I don’t know why I cling to this person. Maybe I don’t want to hurt her. She has nobody left in her life. I have known her for a long time. Perhaps I am just programmed this way?

The way this is currently heading is a disaster in the making. I have two people trying to connect with me. I need to sort myself out. I have never stood up for me and I don’t even know if I can do it. It comes back to this realisation that for all the talk which goes on here about our loved ones and their issues, really the focus should be on ourselves, at least half of it surely?

[2020]

In 2004 I was discarded by Girlfriend #2 after 16 years together and children. I say I was single until about 2009. Had no sex with anyone, no intimacy, not even a hug. The reality was somewhat more complicated.

I continued to do the parent thing. Got the kids to school, paid for school excursions, bought their clothes and shoes. Had them stay with me most of the time. They had birthdays and Christmas because of me. Their mother just took drugs and made a mess of her life.

I never quite was single. She borrowed money, came to me when she was beaten up by her boyfriend. She wanted to go see bands with me, which I did, and paid for. Even booked accommodation interstate, only to have her slash her wrists in the motel room because a girl gave me a hug. She wanted all the perks of being in relationship, but without having to have responsibilities on her end.

I did this for years. On meeting #3 by chance, my psychologist told me I must not under any circumstance let #2 know, because she will poison everything.

I mention this because perhaps nothing has changed within me. History may well be repeating itself. I am interested what others may think here? It looks to me like I have lots of work to do on myself. I am probably not ready for another relationship. Can I even have friendships?

[2020]

Sorry for three posts in a row….

I just spoke to my sister on the phone. I was explaining this idea of seeing this situation from different viewpoints, like SaltyDawg suggested. She agreed, and added this…

What if it weren’t a relationship but a job? Imagine telling someone you had this job in a newsagents for example and the boss was yelling at you every day; calling you a POS. Anybody would be concerned upon hearing this. Particularly if you added that they were beating you up, thowing things at you, damaging your car and setting fire to your caravan, breaking your things and driving your friends and family away. And imagine them asking how long you had worked there for and you reply “more than ten years”. They would probably think you were crazy, especially when you tell them you are thinking of staying on for a few more years. And can you imagine the look on their faces when they say “they must pay really well for you to put up with that”, and you inform them you are a volunteer and work for free! 

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   Welcome back, and thank you for sharing.  I see you have done a lot of good thinking and taking this very seriously, and that is commendable.

I am going to see the new psychologist in a few hours. I am still as confused as ever.

Mate, this is good; however, this will be a first meeting, so there will be intake, and a getting to know you portion.  The portion where you can start working, you will likely still have a lot of unanswered questions when you leave your meeting, if this message reaches you before your appointment, pick one or two critical questions to ask, and have another one or two less critical ones to ask, as time will be limited in the first meeting for these kinds of questions with the psychologist.

[to be continued - posting this bit due to the time sensitive nature]

[Pook075]

I mention this because perhaps nothing has changed within me. History may well be repeating itself. I am interested what others may think here? It looks to me like I have lots of work to do on myself. I am probably not ready for another relationship. Can I even have friendships?

My marriage blew up after 24 years, and after being separated for about a year, I decided to hop on an international dating app to try to meet a Christian woman.  My rational was that (1) I wanted to meet someone but no chance of sex since I was still waiting out divorce and (2) I wasn't meeting any Christian women locally that I'd want to date.  I chose a site in the Philippines because they're known for faithful religious women.

Girl #1 seemed sweet, but had all sorts of drama.  Her dad just died, she was struggling to raise her two kids.  And I got sucked right in wanting to help...until I caught her in a lie...and another.  When I called her on it, she went berserk and I thought....hmm, BPD?

Girl #2 had just moved to a big town in the Philippines, great job, super fun personality.  It felt like love at first sight, everything was amazing for about two weeks.  Then her mood crashed and she was woefully depressed, could I send her money to go to the spa?  Hmm, BPD?

Girl #3 and 4 turned out to be just friends.  We talked and had fun getting to know each other's cultures and lives, but there was no big romantic connections there.

Girl #5 was super cute and fun to talk to, but I honestly don't think she was interested in me as much as she was any guy that would marry her and bring her to the US.  Cool gal but something was way off- BPD?

Girl #6 was probably the funniest person I've ever met in my life, which was strange because she was a maid in Qatar under horrible circumstances.  Full of life, happy, flirty...she was clearly the one.  Then on the third day, she called and screamed at me that I was cheating on her, she saw I was friends with girl #3 on Facebook and I was clearly in love (because I liked her post on some kid's birthday).  Mind you, we weren't dating, and I was like....umm, we've talked for two days here!
 She profusely apologized though and begged for forgiveness, she was just really jealous, she said. 

We made up and all was well, until she saw I was also friends with girl #4 on Facebook the following day.  She went ballistic and I was forced to block her on everything...BPD?  I wish I had time to tell more of this story because she then targeted my brother...first to make me jealous...then to demand that he marry her immediately.  He blocked her too and she's currently talking to my BPD daughter...they're fast becoming great friends.

Girl #7 was a little flirty, mostly serious, but immediately blew me away with how natural talking to her was.  She'd remember everything and nag me to remember to do odds and ends, and she also has one heck of a temper at times.  Yet, despite her faults, she knows God and unconditionally loves me for me no matter what...always supporting me and being on my side.  I hope to marry her someday and we've been best friends for about seven months now.

Sorry for sharing a small book there, but I wanted to show MY PATTERN on choosing the absolute wrong person over half the time.  At least twice, I thought "this could be the one" until the wheels absolutely fell off the bus and I sat here astonished at how much I somehow overlooked things.  But the other side of that coin was that I was almost a year removed a toxic marriage and someone who liked me for me was one heck of a great feeling.

I feel pretty certain girl #7 is the one because she actually helped me heal- we've talked for hours about my situation and my struggles with my BPD daughter and wife.  She's always here for me and one of the coolest things in the world is when I have a bad day and she simply says, "I'm here to listen."  It's like woah...people do that in relationships?  I do the same for her though and it's an amazing feeling to be so close to someone 9,000 miles away.

Don't give up on love...but don't rush into it either.  If my situation happened with local women....oh my gosh, it would have been a nightmare and I never would have made it to #7.  I'm so blessed that I did though and it's only happened because I was patient enough to wait for the right gal once I was fully healed.

#6 is still single, by the way....just throwing that out there.  =)

[ForeverDad]

Sorry, but if you're ending a BPD relationship, in nearly all cases you need to truly end it.  (A la cold turkey, to throw out a metaphor.)  There are no shared children so that's not a concern.  We've all heard the "can't we just be friends?"  (Actually it's often us who say it, since many of us were still trying to fix the other and found it so hard to detach.)

Now that you told her you accept her dumping you, she wants you back, well, how long until she dumps you yet again?  How do I nicely ask, forgive me, How can you not see how messed up this is?

"Can't we just be friends?"  Maybe with both persons being reasonably normal it might be possible, but with (1) abuse and (2) acting-out personality disorders, No.  It's somewhat similar to this:

Men can be friends with other men.  Sports, etc.
Women can be friends with other women.  Shopping, etc.
Mix a man and a woman together and usually they can't be "just friends".  Either the relationship progresses to boy/girl interaction or it withers.

BTW, your sister made an excellent analogy.  I love it!

[SaltyDawg]

[...continued...]

2020,

I am going to re-order your quotes so my comments/observations will build off each of my answers and your own self-realizations.


SaltyDawg, your hypothetical questions are helpful. I would recommend leaving #3, sorting out your own problems before getting involved with #1 or anyone.

This is an excellent idea, I believe taking time to yourself was raised by another member here, and it is a very good recommendation.  You have already indicated that #1 is willing to wait.  I sense you don't want to have the appearance of 'monkey branching' AND you want to clear your head to figure out what is best for you, 2020, as you have clearly indicated that you are 'confused as ever' about this situation.

I am going to be very blunt, again.  Please follow your own advice - take the necessary time to figure out what is best for 2020.  If #1 is a healthy relationship, she will wait long enough for you to figure this out - take at least a month, if not longer to do this.  However, please be mindful to keep #1 in the loop and let her know, by clearly articulating your intentions and a possible preliminary timeline to get this sorted out, as it would be unfair to #1 to string her along - so to speak as long as she is pining for you. 

I would suggesting posing a hypothetical question to #1, on how long she is willing to wait, and perhaps use this as a guide to set up a preliminary timeline to let #1 know of your intentions.


I just spoke to my sister on the phone. I was explaining this idea of seeing this situation from different viewpoints, like SaltyDawg suggested. She agreed, and added this…

What if it weren’t a relationship but a job? Imagine telling someone you had this job in a newsagents for example and the boss was yelling at you every day; calling you a POS. Anybody would be concerned upon hearing this. Particularly if you added that they were beating you up, thowing things at you, damaging your car and setting fire to your caravan, breaking your things and driving your friends and family away. And imagine them asking how long you had worked there for and you reply “more than ten years”. They would probably think you were crazy, especially when you tell them you are thinking of staying on for a few more years. And can you imagine the look on their faces when they say “they must pay really well for you to put up with that”, and you inform them you are a volunteer and work for free! 

2020, you grew up with your sister, your sister knows you better than any of us here.  Your sister has given you some really good insight into your situation, and it definitely sounds like she has your back, mate.  Given the hypothetical that your sister gave you, from a different kind of relationship - what are your thoughts on this?  I suspect it would be similar to the advice you gave yourself in the previous statement I quoted of you.  I hope your sister has given you additional clarity into your situation.  While no one can tell you what to do here - we are 'nudging' (well, okay 'pushing') you in a better and more emotionally healthy direction to help you navigate out of the FOG of your confusion so you can see the situation with better clarity.

Once you see the situation with better clarity, you can make a better, well informed choice on what is best for you, 2020 (and your son too).


Cat, I don’t know why I cling to this person. Maybe I don’t want to hurt her. She has nobody left in her life. I have known her for a long time. Perhaps I am just programmed this way?

Your statements, show great insight into why you are clinging to #3.  Your 'programming' should be addressed by your psychologist in upcoming visits, if you want to put more effort into this, I can point you in a good direction for codependent self-help materials that could possibly help you sooner. 

You and I both know that you don't want to hurt her, as you are a good hearted man.  However, sometimes you need to make a choice to prioritize the needs of the many (you & your son) which should outweigh the needs of the one (#3).

Now, I am going to challenge you with yet another few questions - you said she has no one left in her life, yet you have mentioned her family siding with her.  Even though her family is not as involved as you are, she still has family, and if you leave her, she can still reach out to her family.  Does #3 truly have 'no one left in her life' (her family) to help her out, albeit in a different capacity and manner than you do?  Or, have you taken it upon yourself to 'fix her' all by yourself (a very codependent trait) since you might view her family as not capable (this has been implied by you, although not expressed specifically - let me know if I am reading too much into this - also a very codependent trait, which will continue to enable #3)?

In 2004 I was discarded by Girlfriend #2 after 16 years together and children. I say I was single until about 2009. Had no sex with anyone, no intimacy, not even a hug. The reality was somewhat more complicated.

I continued to do the parent thing. Got the kids to school, paid for school excursions, bought their clothes and shoes. Had them stay with me most of the time. They had birthdays and Christmas because of me. Their mother just took drugs and made a mess of her life.

I never quite was single. She borrowed money, came to me when she was beaten up by her boyfriend. She wanted to go see bands with me, which I did, and paid for. Even booked accommodation interstate, only to have her slash her wrists in the motel room because a girl gave me a hug. She wanted all the perks of being in relationship, but without having to have responsibilities on her end.

I did this for years. On meeting #3 by chance, my psychologist told me I must not under any circumstance let #2 know, because she will poison everything.

I mention this because perhaps nothing has changed within me. History may well be repeating itself. I am interested what others may think here? It looks to me like I have lots of work to do on myself. I am probably not ready for another relationship. Can I even have friendships?

Thank you for sharing more details of #2 - you have provided some profound insight into yourself by discerning this.  I am going to reflect back to you my take-a-ways from what you have just said...

It's been 16 years with #2, and it also has been 16 years with #3 - I do not believe in coincidences like this - could be something here... just sayin... what do you think?

I agree 100% with your then psychologist, just as I have advised you not to let #3 know of #1 for the very same reason!  If #3 finds out about #1, it will go very badly, for #3, for you, and #1 too in addition to anyone close enough to you for collateral damage.

Your children are adults right now.  I am curious as to how much overlap there was between your psudo-relationship with #2, where you would continue to rescue #2, and do things with #2, when you were getting to know #3?

With your caretaking of #2, you clearly indicated that it did NOT get better, by stating "I have lots of work to do on myself".  It definitely sounds like #2 never got any better, if anything it got worse.  How is #3 going to be any different than #2?  I think you may have already answered this by stating "History may well be repeating itself."  What do you think?

You recognize that you are the problem by clearly stating "I have lots of work to do on myself".  You are now 'self-aware' of the issue, and from what you have expressed I firmly believe that you want to change this for the better - both are required to effect change. What can you do, right now, to make this change in your life, to make it better for you, your son, and your future?



Now I am going to circle back to the present...

Girlfriend #3 has been messaging me. Same story; saying she is sorry and that she misses me. I have told her I cannot be in a relationship with her, that we have had frequent conflict and a lot of abuse, and that I need to be alone. So I am getting the ‘can we be friends’ messages. It is just a nightmare really. It makes me very sad. And then last night she was sending drunken poems to me.

GF#3 is now realizing that she has likely gone too far, and is getting very desperate in wanting to stay together with you, as you have been her 'rock' when she has treated you like sh!t all of these years.  I will continue to hold up the mirror, and add to what your sister has said, who knows you better than any of us here.

This is going to be the most difficult time to cut ties with #3, who has family that can support her.  I know you feel really bad for her situation; however, like #2 whom you could not fix, you cannot fix #3 either, the only person you can fix is yourself.  You have an opportunity for change, only you can make those changes for your situation.

You find this decision very difficult, as you are a people pleaser, another codependent trait.


In the meantime Girlfriend #1 is ringing me and we talk for hours on end. She messages me during the day. There has been an incident where we disagreed on something and she took offense to my words. I guess I can be very direct at times and forget somebody is on the receiving end. She has been asking about whether I have contact with #3. I am being honest without giving details away. I’d say she is interested in a relationship with me.

I am curious how the 'disagreement' was resolved?  Having a disagreement is a very important flag - how this was handled will determine the color of this flag.  Please share in a way that you are comfortable sharing when you get a chance?

With regards to communicating #3 contact with you to #1 - be honest; however, frame it in a manner that can be digested by #1 without incurring too much damage to your potential relationship with #1.  I personally would say something along the lines of "#3 has been contacting me while she is drunk and sending me poetry, I do not have a mobile phone so I cannot block her easily on the landline.  I need to contact the phone company to see if they can block her" (unless you guys have special * numbers like we do here in the US).  Also, set up a rule in your e-mail client to redirect her e-mails to the trash or SPAM.  If you have a caller ID, on your landline, it would be easier not to pick up the phone when she rings you.


It is unfortunate this could not have happened when I was absolutely single, around 2004 to 2009 or so. I would have jumped at this then. Having #3 still in my life is going to be the end of this. I don’t think I would be persisting with a woman who still had the man from her last relationship messaging her every day.

I am in agreement with you, do not have #3 message you every day if you want to be in a relationship with #1, as I suspect #1 will not be so tolerant (as you are) of this.  You can make a change now, to make it work with #1 - what are you going to do about this?


I think I might just have to hide away for a while. Part of me thinks I should not have a relationship with anyone. And then I wonder if it is because I don’t want to upset these two women. It is as if I will rather miss out on something better in order to not upset someone, perhaps #3. Is that what this is? I don’t have a cell/mobile phone because I dont like answering them. I could quite easily just go offline five days a week in order to escape this. I am seriously reclusive. It is just a lot easier not being involved with other humans.

Hiding away for a little while to collect your thoughts and process "what is best for 2020" is okay.  However, running away from your problems and not addressing them is NOT okay by avoiding 'other humans' - unless you want to die alone, on your jack jones as a miserable cu** - just keeping it real here.  Figure out a time long enough, but not too long, as I suggested at the beginning of this post a month perhaps two - keep moving forward (even if you don't want to) - review this with your psychologist - if you next appointment is in a month's time, make a decision after your next meeting with the psychologist.


The way this is currently heading is a disaster in the making. I have two people trying to connect with me. I need to sort myself out. I have never stood up for me and I don’t even know if I can do it. It comes back to this realisation that for all the talk which goes on here about our loved ones and their issues, really the focus should be on ourselves, at least half of it surely?

I agree with everything in bold.  You know you need to stand up for yourself.  I have faith in you that you CAN DO IT, as you MUST do it if you have any chance at all for happiness with #1 or someone else in your life like your son.

You have our collective wisdom on this, in a good direction to go.  We cannot make you do anything, only you can make this decision for yourself.  What are you going to choose?

Take care.

Sorry for three posts in a row….

No need for an apology, post as much as you feel comfortable doing so, in order to gain the needed clarity that you need to do the right thing for you, 2020.

I see you just posted again, I will respond separately to that message.

SD

[Notwendy]

That is an important question- why is it that you can not let go of an abusive relationship?

#2 and #3- two long consecutive abusive relationships. People see these relationships from their own viewpoint and ask the question- why don't you just leave. But it's not so simple as that. There is something about the other person that is a part of that relationship. The question is- what is it?

One idea is a "Stockholm syndrome" where people become emotionally attached to their abuser. Simply put- all these years in an abusive situation- this is something you got used to?

I will take a wild guess at how this progressed with GF#1. It's not unusual that people find ways to look up old connections on social media now for different reasons- sometimes just curiosity. Sometimes it's a school alumni group or group contact.

If either person is married- that is a boundary. GF contacted you, learned you weren't married, neither is she- so it went beyond. Likely you confided in her that you were in an unhappy relationship and she assumed you were ready to give that up.

Now, she sees it's more complicated than that and is asking what your situation is with GF#3. She also wants to know why you seem to be hanging on to this relationship.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   I am just checking in on you to make sure you are okay.  We haven't heard from you in a bit, like 10 or 11 days.  I would be interested in an update on how you are doing.

   Take care.

SD

[2020]

Thanks for checking in on me. I am still as confused and depressed as ever. What seemed like a beautiful thing has merely complicated my already complicated life.

I have seen the psychologist twice now. He is probably the best psychologist I have seen, so I am fortunate in that regard. My appointments are fortnightly. He is experienced in BPD so I don’t have to fill him in on the difficulties navigating such a relationship.

Basically I am now (still) in a situation where I have two women in my life both expressing they would like a relationship with me. As I do not want to hurt anybody, I am stuck in between. One side of me feels like I can continue with the 10 year plus pwBPD, as crazy as that sounds. I really feel for her and her struggles. This is of course fraught with danger and the outcome is unlikely to be anything different than what I have experienced thus far. It feels like a complete tragedy as I felt deeply in love with her (whatever that may be). I have shared a lot of my life with her.

On the other side is the first love of my life from decades ago. I was completely in awe of her as a young man. Things have changed. She has grown and changed over the time we have not been together. She is still essentially the same, but different. Her life has taken a different path and she has different interests to me in some ways, although there is still a lot we have in common. She is very direct and honest. She is very kind and loving too. She really wants me to be in her life which is nice to hear.

I have had messages from Girlfriend #3 which I am feeling great sadness about. I have met up with her once since I last posted here. It was a pleasant enough few hours. We sad by the seaside and talked. I have told her I don’t think I can be in a relationship with her because of the difficulties we had; the arguing, fighting, violence etc. She expressed remorse about this. She has told me she doesn’t want me gone from her life and would like to try being friends again.

My psychologist has said until I resolve things with #3, I will not be able to pursue anything with anyone else. This is the first decision I need to make. Also, he said that I will not be able to have a friendship with her at all. It needs to end completely, if that is the route I am choosing. He will support me in whatever decision I make. If I decide to stay with #3, then he will help me navigate that, but I need to realise that she may never change. He said he is not going to tell me what to do either; I need to decide this.

So basically, this is not a success story. It is a tale of doubling one’s misery. I am in perpetual depression and wake up using the f word before my eyes are open. What I thought was a release with my recent reconnection with the old flame from the past, has forced my hand. Yes she was a mirror held up to my destructive relationship, but now I have to make massive life changing decisions which I don’t think I am capable of doing. In the meantime I am taking this out on everyone, #1, #3, and my two sons, by expressing my desire to ride off into the sunset and become a missing person!

Not sure what I will do about this. If there is any chance of this getting worse, I am surely the person most capable of  it all up! 

[Notwendy]

Understandable that you feel the appearance of GF#1 has complicated your life but as you said- it's also turned a mirror on your relationship with GF#3 and prompted you to make one of these decisions:

1) Stay with GF#3. If you choose her though, you are not a victim in this situation- you have chosen it and you are now responsible for navigating that relationship with the advice of your therapist. He is correct that you can not change another person.

2) Discontinue your relationship with GF #3, emotionally recover and then be emotionally available to have another relationship- with GF#1 or other person. Your therapist is correct that one can not recover emotionally from a romantic relationship while staying "friends". You two aren't "friends"- the feelings are more complicated and intense.

3) Discontinue your relationships with both of them. Spend some time being single and working on your own emotional recovery/growth.

In summary-at the moment it's choose #3 exclusively, #1 exclusively, or neither of them.

What are the risks/benefits? #3 is familiar- you know what that relationship is like. It's difficult but that feels familiar to you and you have a long history with her.

The other two choices- outcome is unknown - the possible outcome might be better-- or not. That can feel scary. It's not familiar but there is also possibility of something different in these two choices.

Nobody can make a choice for you. I think you are correct in that some choice needs to be made - so you can move forward out of this "in between".

You weren't happy in your relationship but stayed in it. GF#1 comes into your life and you pursued that possibility.  Now you are in a dilemma because you feel forced to choose as if GF#1 did something to you to put you in a position you would not have done on your own- choose to end a difficult relationship.

But you always had the choice to end it all along. You also had the choice when GF#1 contacted you to not pursue it past a "nice to catch up with you, hope you are well, I am already in a relationship" message back to her.

Wanting to "run off and hide" is avoiding making a choice. Understandable - it's a difficult choice. You don't want to hurt either of them, but you can't stay with both of them- that is hurtful to them and you. Keep in mind, these two women didn't do this to you. You have a say in this too. Hopefully your therapist can help you come to some resolution and decision for how to move forward. You don't feel capable of doing so- that's important to learn why that is and it sounds like your T can help with that.

 

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   Thank you for coming back and sharing an update with us.

Thanks for checking in on me. I am still as confused and depressed as ever. What seemed like a beautiful thing has merely complicated my already complicated life.

I know it seems and feels that way now.  However, you need to focus on becoming less confused and gain more clarity, so you can formulate what is best for you, and move forward in this matter.
 

I have seen the psychologist twice now. He is probably the best psychologist I have seen, so I am fortunate in that regard. My appointments are fortnightly. He is experienced in BPD so I don’t have to fill him in on the difficulties navigating such a relationship.

That's awesome to hear.  I am glad he can be of help to you.  Even though he is ethically prohibited from telling you which one to choose; perhaps, the next time you see him, perhaps reframe a question into a hypothetical, as to what he would do personally if he were in your shoes (like I have previously done, and will do again in this post). 

Basically I am now (still) in a situation where I have two women in my life both expressing they would like a relationship with me. As I do not want to hurt anybody, I am stuck in between. One side of me feels like I can continue with the 10 year plus pwBPD, as crazy as that sounds. I really feel for her and her struggles. This is of course fraught with danger and the outcome is unlikely to be anything different than what I have experienced thus far. It feels like a complete tragedy as I felt deeply in love with her (whatever that may be). I have shared a lot of my life with her.

You have shared a lot with #3, and for that matter #2 as well.  Now, I am going to challenge you a bit, why aren't you with #2 as well?  I seem to recall, your psychologist at the time told you not to.  That is why I am asking you to pose that hypothetical to your current one to help you in this matter.

On the other side is the first love of my life from decades ago. I was completely in awe of her as a young man. Things have changed. She has grown and changed over the time we have not been together. She is still essentially the same, but different. Her life has taken a different path and she has different interests to me in some ways, although there is still a lot we have in common. She is very direct and honest. She is very kind and loving too. She really wants me to be in her life which is nice to hear.

This sounds absolutely fabulous to me.  If I were in your shoes, I would take the chance on #1, especially if I were absolutely miserable being with number #3, especially in light of how badly she is treating you.

I have had messages from Girlfriend #3 which I am feeling great sadness about. I have met up with her once since I last posted here. It was a pleasant enough few hours. We sad by the seaside and talked. I have told her I don’t think I can be in a relationship with her because of the difficulties we had; the arguing, fighting, violence etc. She expressed remorse about this. She has told me she doesn’t want me gone from her life and would like to try being friends again.

Anyone can be pleasant enough for a few hours.  I personally know a serial killer and he is pleasant and charming too.  Pedophiles are really pleasant as well, they have to be in order to do what they do.  One can have sympathy for them; however, one should be aware of their true nature as well.  Also, anyone can feign remorse, the serial killer is remorseful that I personally know.  If she is so remorseful, whey did she throw candies at you the time before this one?  My feeling is that I suspect, she is only changing just enough to keep you from leaving, in order to appease you, so you won't leave, as she herself fears being abandoned by you.

My psychologist has said until I resolve things with #3, I will not be able to pursue anything with anyone else. This is the first decision I need to make. Also, he said that I will not be able to have a friendship with her at all. It needs to end completely, if that is the route I am choosing. He will support me in whatever decision I make. If I decide to stay with #3, then he will help me navigate that, but I need to realise that she may never change. He said he is not going to tell me what to do either; I need to decide this.

I agree 100% with what your psychologist has said.  You do need to resolve things with #3, and that this is indeed the first decision you need to make, sooner rather than later.  If you choose #3, you will have to let #1 go.  If you choose to leave #3, then you can have a relationship with #1 OR (not an AND) someone else of your choosing provided that they want to have one with you.  I also firmly believe that they borderlines will never fully change, since we last chatted, my pw BPD, my wife, who has made really good progress with her anger management issues, had a very bad borderline episode where she threw a snow shovel at / near my daughter, screamed at the top of her lungs for many minutes (better than the hours she used to) and brought my daughter to tears for two days straight after my wife split her black as night.  I personally believe, no matter how good they can become, and my wife is very motivated to do so, and my wife is really well intentioned; however, my wife still had a bad borderline lapse. 

So basically, this is not a success story.

It is not YET a success story, this will depend on what choices you make, and that will depend on how you resolve the issue with #3.  I have given you my opinion on what I would do in your shoes.  You have given your logical opinion on what you would recommend to do for a friend in a similar position that you are in - please follow your own advice, as this is the path that has the highest chance of success.  Your sister has given you her opinion on how you should proceed.  Yet, ....

It is a tale of doubling one’s misery.

I couldn't have said that better - Yet, you are perpetuating "this tale of doubling one's misery" as you so aptly put it.  Only you can stop this misery - what can you do to stop this misery from continuing on?

I am in perpetual depression and wake up using the f word before my eyes are open. What I thought was a release with my recent reconnection with the old flame from the past, has forced my hand.

Yes, #1, is forcing your hand.  She is offering an escape from the abuse you have suffered, yet you are bound by the trauma bond, and you are compelled to stay with #3 to save a person, who has shown no sign of wanting to be saved from her own behaviors.  #1 cannot save you from yourself.  I cannot save you from yourself.  Other members here, cannot save you either.  The only person who can save you, is the person you see is the man in the mirror!

You are the proverbial horse that has been led to the water, it is up to you to drink from that water, we cannot force you to drink, even though are dying of thirst for a much healthier relationship.  Only the horse can decide if it wants to drink.

Yes she was a mirror held up to my destructive relationship, but now I have to make massive life changing decisions which I don’t think I am capable of doing. In the meantime I am taking this out on everyone, #1, #3, and my two sons, by expressing my desire to ride off into the sunset and become a missing person!

Not sure what I will do about this. If there is any chance of this getting worse, I am surely the person most capable of  it all up!

This is no laughing matter.  This is very serious.  You know that change must occur, before it can get better.  I have faith in your ability that you can do this change.  In fact you have already changed by moving forward by meeting #1, and started an intimate relationship with #1.  You know what you will be getting with #1 is a lot better than #3.  You also know what you will be getting with #3 if you choose #3 - she will most likely revert to her old behaviors given enough time.  With #3, you have a 'sunk cost' in her; however, you will never recover what you have invested in her, here is a good analogy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

Right now you are taking it out on everyone who you hold dear, #1, #3, and your two sons.  Do any of these people deserve being treated this way?  I am wondering if you shared your dilemma with either of your sons, what would they encourage you to do?

If you continue to be really distraught about this, I would suggest talking to someone about it.  I did find the local hotline for Australian residents 24/7 at https://www.lifeline.org.au/  or you could ring/text 13 11 14 for additional emotional support for both your depression and your indecision on what to do.

I do care for you, and your two sons.  I also care what is best for #3 (to minimize the drama she has with you - best to remove that drama), and also #1 as well (so you don't keep her waiting).

Circling back to the serial killer I mentioned earlier, he is my step brother, and I have chosen to go No Contact with him several years ago - I do not regret this decision at all, even though I did at the time.

Keep coming back, and update us from time to time, it is greatly appreciated.

Take care, and be sure to do self-care.

SD

[Pook075]

So basically, this is not a success story. It is a tale of doubling one’s misery. I am in perpetual depression and wake up using the f word before my eyes are open. What I thought was a release with my recent reconnection with the old flame from the past, has forced my hand. Yes she was a mirror held up to my destructive relationship, but now I have to make massive life changing decisions which I don’t think I am capable of doing. In the meantime I am taking this out on everyone, #1, #3, and my two sons, by expressing my desire to ride off into the sunset and become a missing person!

For the "average" person here, I'd guess that it takes them 12-24 months or more to truly heal from a BPD relationship.  So try to keep things in perspective- you're only a few months out and you've added a wildcard in a first love. 

This is complicated because it's actually complicated- at first, you thought you could skip the grieving process and ride off into the sunset with #1.  It felt so good because it wasn't the chaos with #3, but at the same time it wasn't giving you a fair chance to heal or find yourself once again.  Ten years in a bad relationship is a very long time; it simply can't be fixed or erased in a few months.

My point here is that you're not doing anything wrong and your feelings aren't betraying you; it simply hasn't been enough time to genuinely heal.  That's why the priority right now has to be you (#1) and your children (#2).  I agree with the psychiatrist as well- you need to be all-in or all-out with the recent relationship.  Doing a little of both keeps you from healing and moving on in a healthy way.

If fate brought girlfriend #1 back into your life, then that same fate will ensure she's still around once you process through this.  Take the time for you to heal and grow and grieve, I promise you'll be a better person for it a year from now.

[seekingtheway]

If you continue to be really distraught about this, I would suggest talking to someone about it.  I did find the local hotline for Australian residents 24/7 at https://www.lifeline.org.au/  or you could ring/text 13 11 14 for additional emotional support for both your depression and your indecision on what to do.

Just jumping on to say that a better hotline to call here in Australia is the 1800 RESPECT helpline, which is a free helpline for people dealing with abusive relationships. The counsellors are amazing and they'll chat to you for up to an hour at a time. You can call as often as you need. They've helped me with my relationship, and just helped to lift me out of those depressive states where I felt I didn't have clarity and felt stuck in my own head.

Sometimes all that's needed is time and space to get true perspective. I hope you're able to access both those things.

[SaltyDawg]

Just jumping on to say that a better hotline to call here in Australia is the 1800 RESPECT helpline, which is a free helpline for people dealing with abusive relationships. The counsellors are amazing and they'll chat to you for up to an hour at a time. You can call as often as you need. They've helped me with my relationship, and just helped to lift me out of those depressive states where I felt I didn't have clarity and felt stuck in my own head.

SeekingTheWay,

   Thanks for suggesting that, I am not a local.  I have visited for a couple of months (whilst working) on the SE coast of Qld. but that was in 97 & 99.

SD

[ForeverDad]

Quite interesting and excellent that your therapist laid out before you the various future scenarios before you.  Therapists are there for consultation and assistance but it is always the patient who decides which path to take.  That in itself can be daunting.  Guess what, even not making a choice, letting things carry on as they have in the past, that inaction too is a choice.

However, we here in peer support, remote and anonymous as we are here, don't have that same level of policy.  We can share our collective wisdom, experiences and conclusions.  (Well, I think so, right?)  So let me excerpt from a recent post by one of our long-time respected members who wrote rather clearly - and dare I say bluntly - about most of the BPD relationships reported here in this separating board.

I want to address your emotional state... From what you’ve shared about your <GF#3>, I’d give the odds that she’d have an epiphany and would come to an empathetic understanding of how her behavior has impacted you negatively over the years—at about 0%.

That you continue to hope for some level of understanding from her is likely to cause you angst in perpetuity...

What I’ve learned is: IT AIN’T NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.

*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

I’m OK with them painting me as the one at fault, the negative influence, the *bad guy*. After all, I know by now that nothing I say or do will change their mind about me. They will think what they think, and that can change from minute to minute.

Letting go of my attachment to their positive regard frees me up mentally and emotionally to be the best version of myself in the moment.

I have one question for you.  Knowing that you already know which choices would be better for you, can you trust your logical brain sufficiently to proceed now with a best case choice going forward until your emotional heart can catch up?

After all, GF#3 had dumped you for months, even years, oops until she noticed you were removing yourself from simmering on her back burner and is suddenly trying to yank you back onto a front burner (a stove top analogy).

Okay, another question.  Will you choose to accept her long term dumping, or instead her last minute gasp of "oh no, I will really lose him, I will promise him a token to keep him around but still at a distance"?

[2020]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to write. Things have taken a turn here and I am not sure what to make of it.

I thought things with girlfriend #1 were going well. I wasn’t walking on eggshells and she was being very kind and generous to me. I felt like I was being very well looked after. Recently in our conversations, we were having increasing disagreements. Often the subject matter would be trivial, at least to me.

I was in this punk band in the mid 80’s; kind of a send up of punk in a way. Comedy-punk perhaps? We had these stage personas where we hated everything. You know, how punks invented derogatory names for themselves… Well in our recent hook up, we had been reminiscing those days and I guess I have been going into character again. Just a bit of banter I guess you’d call it. At least that is how I perceived it…

The last couple of days have been odd. I know we can’t go making assumptions, but I am getting this push/pull vibe. It is like there is suddenly this built up resentment towards me. Like my jokes have been taken personally. I admit I can be cynical and pessimistic, but I have been painted out to be this negative  hole who likes to put everbody down.

Yesterday she rang me and I thought the phone call was going well. Suddenly she declares that we are not a good match, sorry, and it is over. I was quite taken back and hurt. At the same time she is telling me she really likes me though. She is then asking me what I’ll do now, and I said I might just go back to bed for a bit. This might not have gone down well 

Last night I am getting messages again from her. I was trying to explain (JADE-ing perhaps?) that it is unfortunate that I have not had the time to show her a different side to me; the more serious one that is loving and cares about people around me. She seems to have cherry picked some joking around comments I have made about inanimate objects and taken them very personally. I am beginning to see she is rather sensitive. Although there has been a passage of time since the 80’s, I think we are in many ways the same people we were back then, just an extension of that. She knows what my personality is like, I would have assumed.

Last night she says “thanks for fixing my washing machine” and wants to know what she should do with the shirt I left there. I told her it is old and she can toss it out. Then she is upset about that, saying a less than perfect shirt is no use to someone like me.

She tells me she needs a loving creative relationship in her life and she is now feeling down because she had to break up with her boyfriend today. I ask about these other ‘suitors’. She says she has many other men in her life but that isn’t the point. She tells me it is insane. She spends all day checking her messages waiting for me to type something. I reminded her that she said I was on trial, and unfortunately I have failed her test. She said but now she misses me. “Damned if I do etc….”

Maybe I am just crap at relationships. I am going to have to spend this year looking at this in therapy. Is it possible that I picked the same partner three times, or a version of the same partner? Or am I reading too much into this? I was due to see her in a couple of days, but there is no mention of this now. And in the meantime I am receiving fluctuating messages from girlfriend #3.

I did say I can’t really lose, earlier on in the piece. Well I guess I have a double loss now. It isn’t all bad. I get to have some alone time and to look at myself. I really don’t want a repeat of the same old…. I am not entirely convinced that #1 is finished with me yet. And that might be a worry, even a red flag. 

Reading this back…..Am I missing something here? I am, aren’t I? Is this some kind of test. I’m not all that good at this!

[Notwendy]

There's a 40 year gap of time between now and when the two of you had a relationship. When you two got together this time, your references were when you knew each other. Now you are discovering there are differences, even conflicts- that would be inevitable with a time span of so long.

I have at times, met up with people I knew as a teen through school reunions. It's exciting to reunite with friends- we are happy to see each other- in that context. For a brief time, we feel as if time didn't pass, but the idea of suddenly invading their current lives- it would be disruptive. We all have full separate lives, friends, families. With some of them, we might not even be friends at all now because we are so different. For others, there may be potential but it would also feel like starting over. I agree with you that our basic personalities aren't different however, we have had different experiences and changed in ways.

I think it's unrealistic to think the two of you could just rewind to your teen years and go from there. Are there issues- sure. But you have  s as well, having been in a dysfunctional relationship for a long time. She has her own history of emotional trauma too. But to make more meaning out of this- such as saying she has BPD or if this relationship could work or not- there isn't enough to know that now.

FWIW, I dislike it when someone clowns around making derogatory statements - the kind of comedy you describe. It's not that it's "right" or "wrong"- it's just not a style of comedy that appeals to me. Now that you know this about your GF#1- just don't do it around her. It doesn't have to be an argument. People can like or dislike different things.

I think you "missed the boat" when she brought up the possibility that the two of you might not be compatible. This was an emotional statement on her part. When she asked you what you were going to do, she didn't mean what are you going to do right now in the concrete sense. She wanted to know how you felt about that. A response like "well I'm just going to bed" could sound like you aren't that interested in her or concerned about what she just said.

She may be better than you are at communcating her feelings- that is OK - but such an answer seems emotionally disconnected from the situation. It's also OK if you were tired and didn't want to get into an emotional discussion but another way to say it would be "of course that would upset me but it is late and I am too tired to have a discussion about this- I'd like to talk about it tomorrow". 

It's possible that when she said the two of you aren't a good match, she didn't mean "break up" and don't talk to each other, but that she is wondering about it. I don't know what to make of the comment about the shirt but it may have been said in frustration.

So rather than focus on what her problems might be, turn the focus back on you. You call this a double loss, but actually, it could also be a gift- that someone came into your life and shed some light on the dysfunctional relationship you were in with GF#3 and going from that relationship into another is not an instant solution for your own part in that relationship. It's a gift if you see this as an opportunity to move forward. If you go back to GF#3, you know what you are choosing- more of the same that you had before you reconnected with GF#1. The other two choices- be alone and not in a relationship or continue with GF#1 have unknown outcomes.

Here is what is written in some books on dysfunctional relationships: If you end one and go into another without looking at your part in the disordered relationship, there's a risk you will recreate similar disorder with someone else- because you are the same person in both of them. So how do you reduce the risk? By looking at how you could do things differently. The only person you can change is you. Maybe you don't have the best relationship skills, having been in the relationship with GF#3 but you won't gain more by going back to her or being a hermit either. The tools here on this board for having more validating conversations can be helpful for any relationships, not only for pwBPD.

Another option is to take it slow with GF#1- and try getting to know each other now, as the adults you are. Maybe she's correct- that the two of you are not compatible but if you don't get into a lot of drama- you two could arrive at this conclusion and have some closure while still being civil to each other.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   Not Wendy has some really excellent wisdom, advice, and observations so I won't repeat those; however please do reflect on them.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to write. Things have taken a turn here and I am not sure what to make of it.

I thought things with girlfriend #1 were going well. I wasn’t walking on eggshells and she was being very kind and generous to me. I felt like I was being very well looked after. Recently in our conversations, we were having increasing disagreements. Often the subject matter would be trivial, at least to me.

I was in this punk band in the mid 80’s; kind of a send up of punk in a way. Comedy-punk perhaps? We had these stage personas where we hated everything. You know, how punks invented derogatory names for themselves… Well in our recent hook up, we had been reminiscing those days and I guess I have been going into character again. Just a bit of banter I guess you’d call it. At least that is how I perceived it…

The last couple of days have been odd. I know we can’t go making assumptions, but I am getting this push/pull vibe. It is like there is suddenly this built up resentment towards me. Like my jokes have been taken personally. I admit I can be cynical and pessimistic, but I have been painted out to be this negative  hole who likes to put everbody down.

Yesterday she rang me and I thought the phone call was going well. Suddenly she declares that we are not a good match, sorry, and it is over. I was quite taken back and hurt. At the same time she is telling me she really likes me though. She is then asking me what I’ll do now, and I said I might just go back to bed for a bit. This might not have gone down well 

Well most people do not like 'punks' - as you indicated they can put everybody down, even themselves with self deprecating humor.  If you insulted her in this manner, take ownership for it, and apologize for it.  Own your own crap. 

You cannot change how you behaved in the past; however, you can change how you behave in the here and now and the future.  If your partner raises an issue, even if it seems 'trivial' to you, it isn't to your partner, as they took the time and effort to bring the matter to your attention - you don't want to be dismissive towards your partner, as that will develop negative feelings towards you.  At a minimum you need to validate to them that you have heard and understand their concern, and then express your opinion on it in a tactful manner if your opinion conflicts with theirs.

After apologizing for your behavior, do express you are very hurt and confused and you would like some clarification on where you might have gone wrong, listen to what she says, weigh it, and act accordingly.

Last night I am getting messages again from her. I was trying to explain (JADE-ing perhaps?) that it is unfortunate that I have not had the time to show her a different side to me; the more serious one that is loving and cares about people around me. She seems to have cherry picked some joking around comments I have made about inanimate objects and taken them very personally. I am beginning to see she is rather sensitive. Although there has been a passage of time since the 80’s, I think we are in many ways the same people we were back then, just an extension of that. She knows what my personality is like, I would have assumed.

Anyone who has been in abusive relationships can be overly sensitive to things, or poke fun of themselves with gallows humor / dark humor (I am in the 'humor' camp, myself; however, my BPD wife is not).  Also have you heard the expression "Assumption is the mother of all F***ups"?  There is wisdom in those words.  This strongly implies that good communication is really needed here, so that there are no 'assumptions' so there is less chance of a misunderstanding that can result into the mess you now find yourself in.


Since you have admitted to being insensitive here; please take the time and effort to admit it to her, take ownership, and apologize for it.  If she accepts your apology, request, to be notified if you are saying something that she finds insensitive as you are still getting to know her so you know how to adjust things as she has previously been in an abusive relationship and you want to be mindful of that.  Also, please be mindful, that you have been in two very bad relationships with #2 & #3 yourself, and may have gotten BPD fleas, and have unhealthy coping mechanisms, something to unpack with your psychiatrist; however, she may be able to help you identify some of them with her feedback when you ask for an explanation.

Last night she says “thanks for fixing my washing machine” and wants to know what she should do with the shirt I left there. I told her it is old and she can toss it out. Then she is upset about that, saying a less than perfect shirt is no use to someone like me.

Perhaps you overreacted and said this in haste, and indicate this to her, in retrospect, and you will collect the the shirt the next time you see her, or she sees you.  Please try not to look at this as black/white as that is what people with PD's do, but instead, shades of gray.

She tells me she needs a loving creative relationship in her life and she is now feeling down because she had to break up with her boyfriend today. I ask about these other ‘suitors’. She says she has many other men in her life but that isn’t the point. She tells me it is insane. She spends all day checking her messages waiting for me to type something. I reminded her that she said I was on trial, and unfortunately I have failed her test. She said but now she misses me. “Damned if I do etc….”

I personally think that there may have been mistakes on both sides.  She had unrealistic expectations of you texting her all of the time - this is a .  Also, she said you were her boyfriend, and you thought you were still on a trial period for being her boyfriend - that is a very big 'assumption' there on her part, also a .

Maybe I am just crap at relationships. I am going to have to spend this year looking at this in therapy. Is it possible that I picked the same partner three times, or a version of the same partner? Or am I reading too much into this? I was due to see her in a couple of days, but there is no mention of this now. And in the meantime I am receiving fluctuating messages from girlfriend #3.

No, mate, you aren't crap at relationships; but, you have had crap relationships.  I think you might be reading too much into this.  You have had limited experience with good relationships, so having a good relationship is a learning experience, and the only way to get better at them is to learn from your mistakes, make corrections, and do better in the future.

If you are still interested in #1, express this, that you have had nothing but crap relationships, and you want this relationship to be different, and you are seeing a psychiatrist to help you out and you aren't perfect, but it is your goal to learn and grow and be a better person for yourself and her too.

I did say I can’t really lose, earlier on in the piece. Well I guess I have a double loss now. It isn’t all bad. I get to have some alone time and to look at myself. I really don’t want a repeat of the same old…. I am not entirely convinced that #1 is finished with me yet. And that might be a worry, even a red flag. 

This is not a double loss yet, it is definitely a change of dynamic where you are now behind in the score, as you indicated it is not all bad.  Is this a , maybe - it is a , definitely, so proceed with until it becomes a [lose] or a green flag [win].  There is another cliche we have here in the states "It ain't over, until it is over", so until that point is reached, there still is hope.

Reading this back…..Am I missing something here? I am, aren’t I? Is this some kind of test. I’m not all that good at this!

Right now you are likely missing something, as you have inexperience.  Hindsight is 20/20 [no pun intended], once you have had a chance to reflect on this you will  likely see the situation more clearly.

It could be a test.  I know I have been on the receiving end of such tests, and I have also given out these tests.  You could make this into a 'test', as a normal person will be able to forgive such an offense that you have done ( disparage inanimate objects ) ; however, many borderlines are less likely to forgive such an offense and will hold a grudge, or they will completely forget about it in 1 to 3 sleep cycles, as mine does some of the time.

Also, today send an apology for being insensitive with your 'punk' comments that were offensive to her, and you need some time to think about this to sort your feelings out how you could be so insensitive, and you would eventually like to get the shirt back.  This will likely increase the chance of keeping the door open to #1, and also give you some time to think about it.  Talk with your psychiatrist, and perhaps your sister too and move forward, in a direction that you want to move.

Perhaps, start a journal, if you haven't already (or refer to this thread) so you can see the progress that you are or are not making.

Take care, and do some self-care, whatever that might look like for you.

SD

P.S.  Please keep us updated.

[ForeverDad]

I feel you could use some comic relief right about now.  Have you seen the Gary Larson mugs?  I've collected a few that were meaningful to me.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=351337.msg13181959#msg13181959

[2020]

I have been meaning to update here but have either not found time or been conflicted about what is going on.

The situation with girlfriend #3 is very minimal contact now. She messages me every few days but I have seen her just once in a month. There are times when I think I miss her a lot, but there are other times when the BPD issues really hit home and I am grateful not to be stuck in that on the frontline every day.

There have been ongoing flags with girlfriend #1. What seemed like a fairytale romance is sadly not. I may be wrong, but I am increasingly discovering some signs of BPD traits perhaps. Sometimes when I have received a text message, I have had to double check to see if it really was from #1 and not #3! Also, there are signs of a push/pull dynamic perhaps.

I have noticed her take huge offense to some things which I never intended to offend her with and I have suddenly found my self JADE-ing. For example, in a text conversation she had mentioned about people needing to have space sometimes, and then in brackets put (or outer space). As I know she loves music I sent a youtube link to the Sun Ra documentary Space is the Place. She clicked on it and got very angry. Apparently she skipped though it and saw a scene where women were being abused. I was surprised and said I was not familiar with that scene. She was then questioning the whole ‘relationship’. What sort of a man am I, sending videos of women being hit? Didn’t I listen to her own experiences of abuse? Do I get off on this sort of thing?

And it is not just that. I have many diverse interests. Because I have spoken about my interest in the Second World War and mentioned I had spend hours in the past watching mind numbing true crime documentaries, I am now being labelled as ‘ultra-violent’. I am spending way too long trying to explain how people sometimes have a fascination with the macabre. When the conversation becomes circular and I think it is best to exit it, I am sweeping it under the carpet.

Last night it was insinuated that I intentionally waited until my second visit after we slept together before I told her I was into violence. “You didn't mention the hard core stuff on your first visit. You saved it for the second visit, and I had already been to bed with you...so I am grappling with what you are...maybe an insane lunatic ...after I had already been so nice to you!” It is like she is ignoring all the other aspects of me which she may like. Apparently I stayed in violent relationships because I enjoy it. I feel like I am being painted out to be a person I am not. I feel completely misunderstood and judged.

So I am not sure what to here. I suggested to her we maybe need to get to know each other better. My therapist set me a task to find out from her what she wants from this connection. Her answer is she wants congruence, mutual consideration, and peace of mind. “ Basically, I'm sad to be on my own, cos its lonely, but the loneliness is not as hard as trying to communicate with you.” “As I recall I put quite a bit of effort into making sure you had a nice time when you visited”.

Right now, I am thinking I need to be single for a while before I get myself into another relationship. This is already becoming too much to deal with. I am off to see my psychologist on Friday. Hopefully things will become clearer after that. I suppose one good thing to come from this recent reconnection; I have been able to pull myself away from the magnetic field of an abusive BPD relationship…. only to nearly get myself into another one!

I’ll update soon. Thanks for your ongoing advice. I am interested in what your thoughts might be. Hope you are all doing well!

[Pook075]

Right now, I am thinking I need to be single for a while before I get myself into another relationship. This is already becoming too much to deal with. I am off to see my psychologist on Friday. Hopefully things will become clearer after that. I suppose one good thing to come from this recent reconnection; I have been able to pull myself away from the magnetic field of an abusive BPD relationship…. only to nearly get myself into another one!

I don't think anyone here needs to say that there's some massive red flags there.  That's the problem with hopping from one relationship to another without taking the time to reflect, heal, and grow...it's very easy to think, "This is better than that so it must be the right move." 

No judgement here- maybe GF #1 is amazing.  But proceed with caution and actually take the time to figure out your needs first.

[2020]

Thanks Pook. I think you are right. Perhaps I need time to reflect? I haven’t had that yet. Maybe girlfriend #1 is ‘normal’? It is easy to see the world through the bdp lens after decades of being in the thick of it. Some time to myself is really in order.

I’ll see if I can slow things right down. I am in no shape to dive into a full blown relationship right away. I have to say, she has been very kind to me, and tolerant of my predicament with the last partner.

Maybe I am just jumping to conclusions?

[Pook075]

Thanks Pook. I think you are right. Perhaps I need time to reflect? I haven’t had that yet. Maybe girlfriend #1 is ‘normal’? It is easy to see the world through the bdp lens after decades of being in the thick of it. Some time to myself is really in order.

I’ll see if I can slow things right down. I am in no shape to dive into a full blown relationship right away. I have to say, she has been very kind to me, and tolerant of my predicament with the last partner.

Maybe I am just jumping to conclusions?

For me, I'm 18 months outside a BPD relationship and my growth has come in spurts.  For instance, my story of what happened to end my marriage today would be different from how I would have said it three months ago.  Strange right?  But I actually had to process it, understand my role in everything that happened, and then heal from it.

I started dating online maybe 6-8 months after separating, simply because I couldn't stand the loneliness at times.  No harm in flirting virtually, right?  There was a realization there as well, I was distracting myself from dealing with the actual problems in my heart that needed to be worked through.  Because at that point, I believed it was all my wife's fault, I was a victim, and I deserved to move on.  Those were all lies though that I was telling myself in the moment to cope.

Nobody here can say how long you need to take to heal and process and grieve.  For me personally, it was a good 16 or 17 months to fully accept what had happened and my role in it.  You can certainly jump right into another relationship and never look back, people do it all the time, but that also comes with some mental scars that will creep back in when you least expect them...maybe even to sabotage future relationships.

Plain and simple, the decision is yours and yours alone how to proceed.  Everyone here understands grief and pain and loneliness, so you won't find much judgement no matter what you decide.  My only advice would be to do you, figure out what matters in your life outside of relationship, then enter the next romance with eyes wide open.

[Notwendy]

I am going to go way out on a limb here with some ideas.

Not every relationship is a long term one. I think it's too early to decide if GF #1 is for the long term but for now, you seem to be enjoying the connection with her. You were in a long term dysfunctional relationship. It's GF#1 who prompted you to change that. IMHO, if you were not with GF#1 you might return to GF #3 out of habit or loneliness. This doesn't mean using GF#1 to avoid GF#3- it's that your interest has shifted to her and there is something positive between you.

I don't know if there are red flags with GF#1 or not. It sounds to me as if she is a bit frustrated with the communication sometimes but that doesn't mean she doesn't want to be with you. She wants to communicate with you.

There is also some bit of discovery- after 20 years there are interests and aspects about each other that neither of you know already. There is nothing wrong with each of you having your own interests- you two are different people. She sounds a bit surprised at some of yours- but there is nothing wrong with your interests. Perhaps she didn't expect them.

In a way, you have been in an isolated situation- as your relationship with GF #3 was not a typical relationship. But aspects of it may have suited you as perhaps emotional distance was less of a challenge - but at a cost of emotional abuse. So I wonder if the relative isolation kept you distant from the challenge of communication in relationships.

GF#1 doesn't know all aspects of you either. Being interested in history of a war, or forensics doesn't mean someone is violent in their actual lives. There are other aspects of these things- foreign affairs, the science of forensics- that are not violent. I think GF#1 is expressing her own fears- wanting to be sure you aren't violent but interested in justice, geopolitics as well. It's how you share this information and maybe there's room for practice in communications.

There's no way to know how this is going to turn out. However, it seems as if GF#1 coming into your life has prompted you to make some changes. There could be some positive in this. Your idea of being alone for a while- that can work but it's also a comfortable and predictable situation. GF#1 may be challenging you to communicate better.

[SinisterComplex]

Locked thread due to reaching post limit. Splitting off into a new thread which you can find here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357805.0