Article I think many of us can relate to

[Our abuse recovery guide]

https://grownandflown.com/dont-relationship-mother-private-shame/

I found this article recently. I think it's something many of us relate to.

[Notwendy]

https://grownandflown.com/dont-relationship-mother-private-shame/

I found this article recently. I think it's something many of us relate to.

[Notwendy]

And it's relatable whether or not we have children- we have wanted to be different in how we relate to others.

[Cait]

Thanks so much for sharing, I can definitely relate regarding my brother. A few lines stood out to me in particular, and I swapped mother for brother in my case. It's comforting to know that others have made the choice to end a difficult relationship with a family member that is damaging to their life and are healing and seeing the benefits.

"The choice to walk away from the toxicity my brother brings to my life hasn’t been easy."

"While it hasn’t been easy to escape the shame of ending my relationship with my brother, I’m seeing the rewards of letting myself off the hook when it comes to making a choice to say no to the toxicity that my brother brings to my life."

"I have forgiven myself for not being able to meet my brother where he is in his emotional journey and I have chosen to stop thinking about the end of my relationship as walking away from my brother. Instead, I remind myself daily that I am walking towards the bonded relationship I want with my kids."

[Notwendy]

Yes, I also think a common feeling is the secrecy and shame. People can not relate to the situation if they haven't had a similar experience. But she's your mother- they say.

Also the line " what kind of monster can't forgive" - but we can forgive- forgiveness is for ourselves- a part of radical acceptance - that this is the person they are- and to not hold a resentment. But forgiveness doesn't mean we have to tolerate abusive behavior in the present. .
 
If keeping a distance is necessary for our own protection- that isn't a lack of forgiveness- and it seems that people who have not experienced the kinds of situations we have are the ones who don't understand the difference- but we aren't obligated to have to explain it to others.

The "but she's your mother" and the "of course your mother loves you"  No, she actually can not love anyone - and it's not due to something anyone has done or a lack of trying. She's too mentally ill for that- she's overwhelmed by her own distressing emotions to even consider another person beyond her own projections.

You aren't obligated to tolerate your brother's behavior.

[EyesUp]

My uBPDxw had mega blowups with her mother for years, and had minimized contact. When I took a step back, I realized that while things looked differently for me - I had to acknowledge that I also had imposed boundaries in my relationship with my mother.

Some unhealthy intergenerational dynamics in my family certainly contributed to my eventual relationship with my uBPDx. 

Now I'm mindful of breaking the cycle for my kids, and I lament the fact that - like the author of the linked article - I'm not able to provide some of the family relationships that many/most others seem to enjoy.

[Notwendy]

I think a main thing is being able to break the cycle by changing your own behavior. This has been a motivator for me.

I knew that my BPD mother was disordered. I didn't know exactly why, but I could see that my friends' mothers didn't act like she does. I also could observe her behavior and knew I didn't want to act like that.

What I didn't realize is that my other role model- my father- who for me was the role model for "normal" in my family was co-dependent. While he had the more obviously desirable traits to role model- co-dependent behaviors were the "normal" we learned. I realize that he was doing the best he could with what he knew to do- and the positive role modeling is greater- but co-dependent behaviors are not condusive to emotionally healthy relationships.

I brought these behaviors into relationships- and this resulted in issues. However, these are learned behaviors- they can be unlearned.

While you can not change the behavior of other people in the family- by being mindful of yours and making postive changes- you do make a difference- for your children- they see examples of behavior in both parents.

Yes, it is regrettable that they won't have the kind of connections with other family members but you, as the parent, are a key connection and you can make a difference for them. Also is mentioned in the article- the author sought out "other mothers" and I am grateful for the people who did this for me- relatives and friends' mothers were also role models for me.

They could be family, friends, teachers, scout leaders-- think of who might be these connections?

[cranmango]

Thank you for sharing. I’m keeping that article bookmarked.

[Methuen]

This article articulated the experience well. 

People who don’t have our lived experience just can’t “get it”.

Hence their comments:

 “but she’s your mother!”

“Honour your parent “

“Of course your mother loves you!”

- every T I have ever had, has said this, which isn’t helpful because only I know her well enough to know she doesn’t have capacity for unconditional “love”. My mother has a toddlers view of love.

“Does your mom live with you?”  Society politely likes to ask about aging parents.  I would answer truthfully.  Then they would ask this question.  So I had to learn to be evasive and not disclose the truth.  Sometimes there is more information in what gets left unsaid. That’s the way I answer now because those without lived experience don’t have he capacity to understand. But it doesn’t feel authentic because I can’t be truthful.

“Is your mom coming to your house Christmas day?

“What are you doing on Mother’s Day?

Yes, we are different than them, and have worked hard to break the cycle, and be the best parent we can to foster healthy relationships with our kids into their adulthood. I am so thankful that our kids are approaching 30, and still enjoy traveling with us.

But the daily reminders all around us of the beautiful bonding relationships that are so visible with others are still constant reminders that for our parent, we are not enough.

Even though we tried so hard.

As Zachira says, it is a lifelong sorrow.  Part of the human condition is to manage our burdens.

Good article NW.  Thanks for sharing.

[Tangled mangled]

This article describes so well the dynamics between bpd mothers and their daughters.

The toxic shame we experience after going LC/NC.

My mum went the extra mile to recruit flying monkeys from around the world to bring me back under her control.

The worst aspect of NC I find is the self- doubt. I constantly question myself: was she really that bad, maybe she will change if I tell how much I’m hurting. I realise with my mum and other pwbpd that when you open up to them about how hurt you are, they use all information as ammunition to cause more damage.


My mother never took any responsibility for the things she did wrong. It always someone else’s fault, and she even said I’m the only one in the family who had issues with our toxic family dynamics. Reconciliation? Where do we start and what are we hoping to achieve. NC is the answer for me. My mental health is at stake and it’s taken years to own up to my own naivety in all this.

For me too , it’s not a walking away from from my toxic family of origin but about walking towards relationships that are worth preserving and raising children who will not have to carry any inter generational emotional burden and trauma.

[TelHill]

Thanks for posting this, notwendy.

It's hard to put into words how much shame I feel about this subject. My family and the world tsk, tsk you for protecting yourself. I've internalized it despite my best efforts not to.

I have been grappling for what to say to new acquaintances at my church (Catholic- am in California and am liberal) about parents. The onus here is to forgive and reconcile with difficult parents. In addition, I have a divorce  where I believe my FOO upbringing and grooming led me to a scary marriage where I had to run for my life.

It feels like 360 degrees of judgements. The thinking may be it surely is my doing somewhere. I'll get through it but not fair to pay for abuse that isn't your fault.

It's very helpful to express yourself around others who get it. 

[livednlearned]

I was estranged from my uBPD sibling for 10 years and my disordered father for 7. It never felt good, except the absence of meanness meant I got to experience what it felt like to be safe.

Feeling safe and framing it that way made me feel like I had some agency.

"Going no contact" doesn't capture what I was trying to do, and I appreciate the connection the author hints at in her article about that. She was using her choice to better her other relationships, with herself and with her kids and husband.

If I went no contact and didn't figure out how to heal and learn and grow and figure out what I didn't get and needed from my FOO, I'm not sure it would've worked out the same, especially in my current relationships.

All that work went into me and my son and my current (healthy) marriage, and only then did I feel strong enough to make limited, careful contact with my FOO.

My back spasmed a few weeks ago just thinking about making a trip north to celebrate my father's birthday. It's a remarkable signal about whether I need to take care of myself or put effort into them.

[Notwendy]

I didn't go NC but I can relate to the shame. Shame as if my mother's issues somehow implied an issue with me like what did I do, or didn't do that my mother was like she is?

Shame that my mother didn't act like the other mothers of my friends.

Afraid that if my friends knew about my mother, they would not like me. I didn't want my friends to know. My friends thought she was odd or eccentric but had no idea.

In high school, a boy I liked came over to my house after school. BPD mother was in full crazy mood and he saw her behavior. I was so embarrassed. I thought he'd have nothing to do with me after that but he didn't seem phased by it. We remained friends. It felt validating that someone did not assume that if my mother was like that- that somehow it had something to do with me. Validating that he actually liked me.

I had another experience where I briefly dated a guy in college and had the courage to tell him about my mother. He seemed to really like me. Dropped me right after I told him. Ghosted me. I tried to talk to him- not to change his mind but I wanted to know- was it because I told him about her? Was it something I said or did? Maybe it had nothing to do with that- but he wouldn't talk to me about it.

After that, I was more afraid to say anything about her.

[TelHill]

notwendy,  you're right about not knowing why people reject friendships. I don't plan on saying anything either other than they're alive and living elsewhere. I will only mention it should I trust someone and observe their character for a long time.

It's a hard act to juggle keeping myself free from hurt, keeping my business to myself and the obvious need to educate our culture that many family members do and have suffered greatly with bpd family members. The latter would help lift some of the shame we feel, I believe.

[cleotokos]

I can relate to the fear that people knowing what our relationship with our mother is like will cause them to blame us. Though I have only become conscious of that thinking recently. I have just become aware that my core belief is that I am defective, and that’s why my relationship with my mother is as it is. Currently working through that. I highly recommend “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents”, which is the book that brought me to that realization about my core beliefs. It’s been a hole inside me my whole life that I’ve never been able to fill.

[Notwendy]

I think there is a tendency to assume that if we have a strained relationship with our mothers- it's a reflection of us. Also, I think a child needs to feel unconditionally loved for them to feel secure and valued.

There are sayings such as "has a face only a mother could love" as if a mother can love their child no matter what and if our own mothers couldn't love us- can anyone?

For me, I assume that any attention is probably transactional- they must want something, or I need to do something to justify the value of their attention. This seemed to be the expectations growing up. I felt I needed to be a people pleaser in order to be liked.

[zachira]

I assume that any attention is probably transactional- they must want something, or I need to do something to justify the value of their attention. This seemed to be the expectations growing up. I felt I needed to be a people pleaser in order to be liked.

It has helped me tremendously to recognize that people with narcissistic tendencies see relationships as transactional and on the other hand, that healthier people value connecting with others through empathy. I have seen so many narcissists do terrible things to each other and then use each other later on to accomplish some pretty evil goals. On the other hand, healthier people have empathy and they have boundaries which include not enabling disordered people or doing things for people that they are able to do for themselves. It is so hard to not want to be extra nice to everyone, constantly be looking to find ways to help people when we were rejected by our family. People are constantly telling me indirectly, that they want to be seen as adults who can take care of themselves, though if healthy will value the help if they really needed it AND if disordered often welcome having others doing things for them they could be doing for themselves.
It seems that many of the members on this site who have children do everything to have close relationships with them while supporting their children growing into being independent adults who can have loving relationships, even though the compulsion to be a helper can seem to never end. I am always fantasizing about saving some person in some bizarre situation and getting all kinds of recognition for it. I think that is part of my need to be loved and seen, something I did not get as a child or as an adult from a large disordered family which picks certain children at birth to be the family scapegoats. I now say no to helping people who show no interest in me, unless it is a simple one time situation and there are no strings attached. For example, last year I found a license on the street. I mailed it to the woman and she wrote me a lovely thank you note which warmed my heart. I also try to be nice and polite to people whom I interact with regularly while respecting their boundaries, except in cases where I feel that this person just wants to use me and then I disengage as quickly as possible. I do nice things for the few close friends I have because they know how to self soothe and would never use me as a sponge for their uncomfortable feelings.

[Notwendy]

As to people pleasing- something I learned in 12 step groups was to pay attention to how we feel. If we are doing something out of people pleasing- saying "yes" when we don't want to do it, we will feel resentment.

There are some tasks we just have to do- we may not want to do them but we understand their purpose- and so we are willing to do them for that purpose. I don't love cleaning the house. It's not something I want to do but I choose to do it because I want a clean house. We won't feel resentful in this situation. However, cleaning up after people who are capable of doing this for themselves- I will probably feel resentful unless they help. One thing I have had to work on is being able to ask for this, as it seems easier to just do it myself than to ask.

Some things we do out of our own values. When you found the lost license, you sent it back because, for you, it's the right thing to do. You didn't expect a response- you just did it.  The thank you note was a nice suprise.

Not being a people pleaser doesn't mean we stop doing things for people. We can still do helpful things. The key is to pay attention to our reasons. If we are doing it out of fear, or people pleasing- then that is when we need to say "no".

[zondolit]

While this thread is about parent-adult child relationships, I find it helpful to read in light of my divorce, particularly a divorce in a community where divorce is somewhat rare. Similarly to you all, I am sensitive to other's views of my decision to divorce. There is often an underlying judgement that if I really had tried I could have made my marriage work. The assumption (which I believe I used to subscribe to) is that a truly mature, good, and skilled person will never have to close a relationship, whether through no contact with a parent or child or through divorce.

The people closest to me do not believe this, and I am so grateful. But it has been a learning process for us all.

[zanyapple]

Notwendy - Thank you for sharing this wonderful article. Every word to me is relatable.

> Only monsters can’t find it in their hearts to forgive their mothers, right?
> But she’s your mother, you should just let bygones be bygones!

Especially the lines above. For the people in my country, it's unacceptable not to be able to forgive their parents, especially their mothers. It becomes far more unacceptable as they age because the older they get and the more frail they become, societal pity towards them intensifies. For example, it's very quick for people working at nursing homes to say, "it's so heartbreaking this person died alone" without putting any thought as to why things ended up that way for them. I have noticed that younger generations are far more accepting though. It's really mostly my generation (Millennials) and older generations that are bit close-minded about this.

Without throughly explaining myself and giving out specific examples as to why I don't have a good relationship with my mother, people are ready to burn me alive. Often times, I question myself why I even need validation from these strangers.. I actually don't, but I also don't need them to cast judgment upon me quickly.

[zachira]

In general, we have many examples in which people are judged and blamed by others who have no clue what their situation is/was. Elizabeth Smart who was kidnapped was blamed for not escaping her captors when she had several chances to do so. I was one of those who at one time thought she should have taken the opportunities she had to escape. It wasn't until she explained all the brainwashing and the threats that her family would be harmed, that I understood why she did what she did.

[Notwendy]

I think cultures frown on divorce and also elevate parents for good reason. It's a fabric of our culture and applies in most cases. On the other hand, this makes people who don't fit this mold feeling like they are at fault.

I think for most people - they have tried all they know to do to make the best of it- and are not to blame for lack of success. There are exceptions- the callous child or spouse- but from what I have seen on these boards- decisions to distance from a family member with BPD are made after all possible attempts to avoid that decision and in the event of emotional, physical, verbal, or financial abuse.

There was an elderly woman in our community who people would visit- and when we did, she was pleasant and friendly. Her children live at a distance from her. I didn't see them. I also knew to not judge- she might be pleasant with her visitors and different with her own children. Likewise, my BPD mother formed a bond with a neighbor who is about my age. I think this was possible for them because their relationship was different from family.

As to marriages--one can not ever know what goes on between two people that leads to a decisions to divorce. Most often, it's a difficult and emotionally painful decision even when it's the best possible one.

[zachira]

We have to be able to decide whether a person is safe or not, and it is complicated because we usually know so little about how most people treat different people in different situations. There are several mothers in my family who are loved and admired by other children AND very abusive in private to their own children. I am now more observant about whether a person is being superficial or genuine. I clearly don't get this right all the time, though I now honor my gut feelings. It really helps to observe how a person treats someone they have power over like children, employees, wait staff, etc., or someone they have a close relationship with like a spouse.