Figuring out why I attract Crazy

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Split from Listen to your gut (topic 357669) I am on my 2nd BPD relationship myself, the first one was a low functioning one, but mixed with NPD, I was able to recognize the signs, and left after the 2nd time she cheated on me.  However, my current one is with my first wife, who is very high-functioning, very loyal, and is likely mixed with a different PD, OCPD which masks the BPD quite well, except when she is triggered, and then all hell breaks loose.

   I find it amazing, now that I can recognize the signs, how predictable the behaviors are, once you look at it through a borderline lens.  I've been working with my own therapist on developing CRAYDAR (Crazy RADAR) where, like you, I can now detect crazy with my gut feeling.

   I also am working with my therapist, on figuring out why I attract Crazy, and I am attracted to Crazy.

[SaltyDawg]

Split from Listen to your gut (topic 357669) I am on my 2nd BPD relationship myself, the first one was a low functioning one, but mixed with NPD, I was able to recognize the signs, and left after the 2nd time she cheated on me.  However, my current one is with my first wife, who is very high-functioning, very loyal, and is likely mixed with a different PD, OCPD which masks the BPD quite well, except when she is triggered, and then all hell breaks loose.

   I find it amazing, now that I can recognize the signs, how predictable the behaviors are, once you look at it through a borderline lens.  I've been working with my own therapist on developing CRAYDAR (Crazy RADAR) where, like you, I can now detect crazy with my gut feeling.

   I also am working with my therapist, on figuring out why I attract Crazy, and I am attracted to Crazy.

[Skip]

  saltydawg

I also am working with my therapist, on figuring out why I attract Crazy, and I am attracted to Crazy.

It's an interesting proposition... do you think you disproportionately attract "crazy"? It's an interesting topic for this thread. 27% of the population has a mental illness or an addiction - so we are all trying to navigate life with people who have problems.

What are your thoughts?

[SaltyDawg]

  Skip

   Some responses to your questions and observations....

saltydawg

It's an interesting proposition... do you think you disproportionately attract "crazy"? It's an interesting topic for this thread. 27% of the population has a mental illness or an addiction - so we are all trying to navigate life with people who have problems.

What are your thoughts?

Yes, I disproportionately attract "crazy".  Being mindful that +/-27% of the general population could have been diagnosed with a mental illness and/or addiction sometime in their lives, the number of women (and guys too - and I am non-judgemental heterosexual) who have hit on me would exceed this 27% by a factor of at least 2 times and perhaps as much as 3 times.

Also before I discuss the details, I think we need to define what a mental illness is.  If it is having codependent traits, then over 90% of the general population has a mental illness - I am included in this group.  Whereas, if it is someone who is/was institutionalized (prison and/or mental hospital), then this number dips well below 10% of the general population to around 4% depending on which set of peer-reviewed statistics you look at - for my 1st degree relatives this percentage is coincidentally 27% or 7x the national average for those who have/are institutionalized, but should be higher if the therapist didn't drop the ball on my wife's most recent suicide attempt.  To me, mental health statistics are a bit ambiguous at best, I will discuss more a little later for my individual experiences with my pwBPD. 

In the past two years, the amount of time I have been familiar with mental health issues, I have had a dozen women hit on me (while I was wearing a wedding band, and two were in front of my wife one of which made my wife uncomfortable, and the other my wife was oblivious, but found out as my son told her as we were about a hundred feet away from my wife at the time).  I'd say all but 3 of them likely had some kind of mental issue going on (75%).  Two told me that they were BPD when I asked or they volunteered the information (one of each) which is 17% of the women that hit on me.  One was bipolar, several indicated they were ADD/ADHD, and most of them overshared with me when I talked to them.  At least 2 were married that volunteered this information, I didn't look anywhere but their faces. 

I did notice some interesting themes among these women, I am in my mid 50's, most of these women were in their lower 40's, all but one were very physically fit, and appeared to be much younger than they indicated and had that 'curated' look of being extremely attractive - women I would normally consider 'way out of my league' as I was very much obese; however, I was doing exercise and/or very involved with my children at their sports - these are mostly attended by the mothers, rarely by the dads (except on game day).  I can only guess having the appearance of being an involved dad made me attractive to them.

I encourage everyone to be very careful in a situation like this to not cast yourself as a the victim.

Why?

Because laying the blame on the other person or the situation, generality means we don't learn the life lesson we need to learn - we just get wounded and move forward fearful of becoming a victim again. There is something to learn here for life going forward.

Skip, I agree with you on this for the most part if one remains in a state where they are a professional victim, much like the borderline does, and blames everyone else for their issues.  If one stays in the role of a 'victim mentality' this can be very damaging, where no personal growth can occur as the blame is shifted to the persecutor.  However, I do feel that it is important to acknowledge the fact that we have been attacked in one or more abusive ways, whether this is physical, emotional, psychological, verbal, etc.  When I was in this scenario, other than the physical abuse of being hit, punched, and kicked, I didn't even realize I was being abused until a therapist pointed it out to me.  I don't like being the victim, even though I had to come to the shameful realization that I was indeed the victim even though I thought I had too much pride to admit being one at the time. 

When this realization hit me, I was in a state of denial - how can this woman whom I had dedicated my life to, do this to me.  Then it made me angry, and it ultimately led me to how not to be the victim.  It wasn't until my 2nd cluster-B relationship did I realize that the common denominator was me, not them, as to why I attracted this kind of woman.  This led me into doing a deep dive with my therapist on what my own issues were that contributed to this.  Eventually we looked at being codependent after looking at all of the stuff that my wife and exgf had transferred and projected on to me, that I eventually started to believe as my sense of self had eroded to that point.

I was quite naive as to what was happening to me; however, now that I know, I can set up effective boundaries to no longer tolerate such behaviors, and the consequence is me 'gray rocking' my pwBPD and not rewarding her bad behavior with a reaction of any kind from me.

In effect, I have become my own rescuer from the drama triangle by ensuring that 'all abuse must stop' which is my guiding mantra for setting boundaries with my wife.

I'd be careful ever using the anas platyrhynchos (duck) diagnostic method.  . It could be any number of things (Histrionic Personality Disorder).

For our purposes, assigning a Junguian personality type or a DSM diagnosis only has value for us in selecting effective tools to communicate with a person (wife, son), to understand the long term prognosis of the relationship (dating, marriage), and helping a person get care.

If our date is on a MILF website or boiled our pet rabbit... the message to us is clear enough.

When we do try to label it, we need to consider. The DSM comittee warns of the dangers of using the DSM as a cookbook. We should use it, just very carefully. It's important to not to lose perspective.

Perhaps my statement is an oversimplification, where if 100% of the listed symptoms are met then it is likely they have that PD.  I still believe this, as it applies to what I have witnessed in my own life and others.  However, I do see your point, and for diagnosis I use the Merck Manual Professional Edition, even though I not a licensed professional, nor have I studied to be one (yet) - I am a fellow human being who has had more than one BPD in their life, and wants to understand why, and what to do about it.

The link for BPD that includes the symptoms from the DSM 5 along with a host of additional information can be found at https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric-disorders/personality-disorders/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd

There is a general description, etiology (origins), Symptoms & Signs, Diagnoses (including differential diagnosis - in order to exclude conditions with similar symptoms, none of which were 100% on their respective symptom lists), and Treatments for BPD.

Perhaps my statement was a bit too generalized, and should have included excluding the differential diagnosis, when I made my statement.

Complicating Factors When we encounter high conflict or destructive relationship behaviors it is important for us to know that the problems can be caused by a broad range of things that look a lot a like:

    immaturity,
    short term mental illness (e.g., depression),
    substance induced illness (e.g., alcoholism),
    a mood disorder (e.g., bipolar),
    an anxiety disorder (e.g., PTSD),
    a personality disorder (e.g., BPD, NPD, 8 others),
    a neurodevelopmental disorder (e.g., ADHD, Aspergers), or
    any combination of the above (i.e., co-morbidity).

How often is "any combination of the above?"   In an NIH study of 34,653 people*, of those that had clinical BPD,

   74% also had another personalty disorder,
    75% also had a mood disorder, and
    74% also had an anxiety disorder.

That may be high. Studies peg the number to be 32% have, or "have had" a mental illness.

I personally do not think those percentages are high, I am very familiar with this study.  The comorbidity of BPD (Cluster B) and OCPD (Cluster C) is around 5% in that study when processing the raw inclusive data.  However, I have also reviewed two other studies that indicate a comorbidity of OCPD and BPD of 35% and 50% when specifically studied, up to a 10x or 1000% difference depending on which peer reviewed study is examined.  Let me know if you want links to those two additional studies?

My wife has 100% of the symptoms of OCPD and BPD.  OCPD requires 4 of the 8 symptom groups to be met, and BPD 5 or more of the 9 symptom groups to be met.  My wife has all 17 (8+9) symptom groups between the two with the sole exception of the individual symptom of self-mutilation.

Some interpreted recent studies to suggest that BPD grew from 1.6% of the population to 5.9%, but this is a misunderstanding of the numbers. I'm was in the group of "some". 1.6% of the population qualified for a BPD diagnosis in 2023 (for example). 5.9% of the population will qualify for a diagnosis some time during their lifetime.

My understanding of the study that you previously mentioned was that 5.9% of both men and women at the time of the study were diagnosable; however, only 1.6% of the population were actually diagnosed with BPD (different set of statistics), this differential in percentages strongly implies that roughly 3 out of every 4 that are diagnosable as being undiagnosed; which in turn implies the large numbers of people on here that have a person with undiagnosed BPD, including myself, in spite of exhibiting extremely similar behaviors to people having a person with a diagnosed person with BPD.


Now I am going to circle back to a statement that I made that you highlighted:

Just like in any profession, especially the mental health profession, as many of these professionals are dealing with their own mental health issues (I personally estimate around 85%), it is prudent to become an expert in the area that adversely affects you, as it is helpful to be able to push back on these professionals and ask pointed questions to help you better understand what is going on.

After having dealt with dozens of mental health professionals over the decades, I deliberately ask them what brought them to their field - the ones who answer the question are usually there because they are the care-taker type and they have had family member, a spouse, and/or children with mental health issues - they either directly or indirectly indicate that they are codependent.  There are about 15% who are obviously working on their own mental health issue(s) and using their profession to help them along they either admit it, or are extremely evasive in their answer but is very obvious.  Then there is about 15% who are outstanding, as they don't have anyone close to them with issues; but several have some kind of physical handicap that precludes them from other professions, they might be NPD, who knows, but they exude confidence.  This is from my personal experience and observation.  Likewise the number of patients a therapist has is a disproportionately large percentage of people with mental health issues by two or more orders of magnitude, as people who are generally speaking are mentally healthy will not seek out such therapy.  Likewise professionals who are in the mental health field will seek out mental health because of their own struggles with their own mental health issues and/or the issues of a close family member.  This observation has been validated by my current individual therapist, who is also an instructor.

The mental health professionals are human too, and can make errors, especially when they see a curated version of your pwBPD.  For couple's therapy with a pwBPD, I strongly suggest correcting any false narrative, otherwise the therapist will assume it to be fact as you didn't disagree.  Also therapists with their own mental health issues who are sympathetic for whatever reason to your pwBPD will often do countertransference on you. 

Drawing a parallel to conventional medicine, I have personally been misdiagnosed with osteoarthritis when in fact I had a torn meniscus, two totally different issues with the same physical symptoms that were not discovered until a MRI was performed.  Likewise, many with mental issues are also misdiagnosed as well - the person who has the best observation are the ones who live with them.  My primary pwBPD is my wife, and she has been diagnosed with Anxiety and Depression, the most common misdiagnoses for BPD according to Randi Kreger's book "Stop Walking on Eggshells", 3rd edition, which has an excellent assessment tool in it, for lay people such as ourselves.

People want to be heard when the confront us and one good response is to let them get it out and ask questions and confirm what you are hearing them say without judgement.

Then suggest that you need a day to think about all that has been said. Then come back, confirm what your heard again, and then discuss her concerns and what you think you need to say.

It takes discipline, but it works.

People struggle with "walled up" for a lot of reasons and can interpret it to mean something very different than what it actually means.

Again, I agree with you.  When my pwBPD who wants to be heard, becomes irrational, I do something similar, and I suggest we take a break from the conversation, and resume it the following morning, when I know she will have an emotional reset, which for her is a sleep cycle.  This way she is back to baseline and can reason, and a mutual understanding has a better chance of happening.

I am must apologize on being a bit long winded, as this only scratches the surface of what I have learned - if you, or anyone else reading, have any specific questions, we can discuss this on a new thread, as I don't want to hijack this one.  I feel we are all hear to learn from our past mistakes, learn new things to make our own lives and the lives of our loved ones a better place to be in.

Take care, and be sure to do self-care whatever that looks like for you.

SD

[Skip]

Take care, and be sure to do self-care whatever that looks like for you.

Thanks, Salty Dawg.

my 1st degree relatives this percentage is coincidentally 27% or 7x the national average for those who have/are institutionalized, but should be higher if the therapist didn't drop the ball on my wife's most recent suicide attempt.  

I have had a dozen women hit on me (while I was wearing a wedding band, and two were in front of my wife one of which made my wife uncomfortable, and the other my wife was oblivious, but found out as my son told her as we were about a hundred feet away from my wife at the time).  I'd say all but 3 of them likely had some kind of mental issue going on (75%).  Two told me that they were BPD when I asked or they volunteered the information (one of each) which is 17% of the women that hit on me.  One was bipolar, several indicated they were ADD/ADHD, and most of them overshared with me when I talked to them.  At least 2 were married.,..

I think we need to define what a mental illness is.  If it is having codependent traits, then over 90% of the general population has a mental illness...

I personally estimate around 85% of mental health professions have a mental illness...

Before digging into this, I have a few suggestions:

Only quote statistics from peer reviewed studies published in medical journals and textbooks and be sure to be look at the multitude of studies, in chronological order, that measure the statistic. That is how researchers do it. There is a community rule on reliability of cvlinicval info posted.  ).

Don't use statistics to describe your guesstimate or personal experiences. Better to say I spoke with three therapists and two said their personal experience with mental health is what motivated them to study psychology. "85% of therapist have a mental illness", especially when there are peer reviewed studies suggesting 32%. It's also better to say 3 of my 10 first degree relatives (i.e., parents, siblings, children) were incarcerated or institutionalized.

Don't use statistics to describe others personal experiences or guesstimates or opinions. The "90% of the population is co-dependent", for example, comes from Anne Dranitsaris, who says "some people estimate... 90%". That is not a study. And the context of her comment is in a discussion about overuse of the term.

This will help us understand better what you are saying and it will make statistics leg ambiguous to you.

And I wouldn't, use the DSM (or other mental health resources) as a casual checklist. The DSM 5 committee warns non-professionals who are inclined to do this that it will be misleading. In short, any of us could find a personality disorder to describe the behavior of anyone/everyone we are in conflict with. That is not to say that it is not valuable in understanding a family member or someone that we know well and have observed behaviors and actions for many years.

Mental health is not like physical health. In pregnancy it is either yes or no and there is a definitive test. Most complex mental health diagnoses are derived by a process of elimination after lessor, more treatable diagnosis don't work. It's very different than medicine.

So your family has multiple consecutive generations of personality disorders (before you and after you), your wife has a personality disorder, a significant number of the members of your immediate family have been incarcerated or institutionalized, you have some contact with mental health professionals and are of the impression 8 out of 10 are mentally ill, and you are a 50-year old married father and are getting propositioned 10-12 times a year by younger, attractive women and in some cases men, who you would consider "out of your league" - most of which appear to have a mental illness.

... and you are wondering why you attract "crazy".

At first glance, two things come to mind:

• is there something about the area where you live that would account for this? I don't think this is at all typical of the audience here?
• are many of these people clinically diagnosed or is it primarily your assessment of them?

[EyesUp]

In recent years, I've given this question more attention.

In my experience, going back to my teens/high school, I've perceived that I attracted a certain type in romantic and non-romantic relationships... I thought of this type as excessively emotive, prone to over-sharing, naive. I did not find it attractive, and generally would not engage. But I would occasionally wonder: Why is this person communicating this way to me?

I think it boils down to: These folks exist, with or without me. They will emote to anyone, not just to me or people "like" me. The difference might be: Who lets them in?

For me, keeping this front and center shifts responsibility for my half of any relationship entirely to me. I accept responsibility for who I choose to build a friendship - or any relationship - with.

Yup, I can be a good listener. Yup, I've got some empathy and can spot when someone is happy or not - and validate those feelings. Yup, individuals with a weak sense of self, but a lot of pent up emotions, find this attractive:  Someone is actually listening and validating - without even saying much!  Yet, even with some awareness of this dynamic, I still married someone in which I perceived a significant imbalance to be a complimentary fit. I was way off - and I need to own that, and how I not only accepted it, but contributed to it.

Sure, we can apply any framework to explain attraction and general compatibility - myers briggs, zodiac, pheromones...  add the overlay of shared experience, values, aesthetics, etc...  it's complicated!  Add a BPD curveball in which one half of the dynamic is not entirely authentic (can be hard to spot) - but is highly complimentary, mirroring interests, sexually "on"... and we're off to the races!

At this point, I feel increasingly able to hold myself accountable - to recognize my own insecurities - and also to get back to my pre-marriage / adolescent instincts ("why is this person overcommunicating? is it appropriate? no? waiter, check please!").

Looking back, at least in my case, I think my willingness to engage in rescuing behaviors originated in my (surprise!) FOO with my single mother, who frequently emoted more than enough for both of us. Even now, with some objectivity on this dynamic, I need to keep my helper/rescuer impulse in check.

No wonder I perceived that emotionally-active people were attracted to me:  It's probably the single most familiar - and therefore deceptively comfortable - interpersonal dynamic I know...

[SaltyDawg]

EyesUp,

   Thank you for your insightful reply.

   I too can trace what I attract to a certain type of romantic relationship.  I remember doing an activity with a blind girl in a high school youth group.  She wanted to be friends, and when she asked about becoming friends, instead of saying 'no' like I should have - I did the classic 'maybe' in order to be kind to her - little did I realize, this 'maybe' gave her the green light to stalk me for the next several weeks - good thing cell phones were not available to the masses at that time, as it was limited to notes in my locker, and making sure she would bump into me in the hallways of the high school.

   Fast forward to 18 months ago, my current individual therapist has the same handicap.  When I ended my first session with her, something felt very off, and when I was at home later on that afternoon, I figured out my new therapist had the same handicap my highschool stalker had - it was eerie at first; however, after a two sessions, I no longer felt that way.

   With regards to oversharing, I always have felt it to be comfortable, why I haven't quite figured it out.  However, just recently (last year) I have come to realize that this is an unhealthy way of starting a relationship, I never figured this out until then.

   I do agree with you that "These folks exist, with or without me. They will emote to anyone, not just to me or people "like" me. The difference might be: Who lets them in?".  Before I would most certainly let them in; however, now I will listen and validate where I can (to be polite, and I am curious); however, I do not exchange contact information with them, and if I know I will be around them a bit (kid's practice), I will actively avoid them, by staying in my car, or reading my phone, and let them initiate contact

For me, keeping this front and center shifts responsibility for my half of any relationship entirely to me. I accept responsibility for who I choose to build a friendship - or any relationship - with.

I agree with this too, and have been able to keep the distance, so far.

Yet, even with some awareness of this dynamic, I still married someone in which I perceived a significant imbalance to be a complimentary fit. I was way off - and I need to own that, and how I not only accepted it, but contributed to it.

Only if you are self-aware, can you share how how you contributed to this?

Add a BPD curveball in which one half of the dynamic is not entirely authentic (can be hard to spot) - but is highly complimentary, mirroring interests, sexually "on"... and we're off to the races!

To me BPD is not a curveball, more like a line drive straight to my heart, they seem to actively seek me out, while two of them confirmed it, there were at least three others that set my CRAYDAR off and were likely also BPD - that were highly complimentary, and mirrored interests, I only engaged as I was waiting for my kid, and was bored scrolling on my phone - I enjoyed the attention; however, I knew not to go any deeper than superficial in these conversations.

At this point, I feel increasingly able to hold myself accountable - to recognize my own insecurities - and also to get back to my pre-marriage / adolescent instincts ("why is this person overcommunicating? is it appropriate? no? waiter, check please!").

I too will not engage beyond being superficial with 'small talk' and will asked them pointed questions, and it is amazing how much they share, as long as I know I have an easy out of never seeing them again.  It's like pushing a button, and watching them go.  I never had those instincts as an adolescent, as I never learned them.  Now that I have learned about human behavior, it is fascinating how these behaviors are, and how damaging they can be without having learned the skills that someone should have showed me in highschool.

Looking back, at least in my case, I think my willingness to engage in rescuing behaviors originated in my (surprise!) FOO with my single mother, who frequently emoted more than enough for both of us. Even now, with some objectivity on this dynamic, I need to keep my helper/rescuer impulse in check.

No wonder I perceived that emotionally-active people were attracted to me:  It's probably the single most familiar - and therefore deceptively comfortable - interpersonal dynamic I know...

My brother had emotional issues, so my parents focused on him, while I felt neglected and was sent off to boarding school, versus him being put in mental hospital - back in those days insurance only covered a two week stay, and nothing more back in the 1980's.  So it was much cheaper for them to ship me off to boarding school, where some of my own abandonment issues stem from. 

While I do not have full blown boarding school syndrome (https://caldaclinic.com/boarding-school-syndrome-the-childhood-trauma-of-privilege/)  I do have a few of those issues as a result, specifically:

Fear of abandonment and/or separation anxiety  (only when it is real, and not imagined)
Lack of trust
Fear of failure
Eating disorders (obesity, not a traditional eating disorder of control like anorexia)


I am wondering if anyone else reading this find that they attract "Crazy" by having repeated BPD relationships, or other similar observations?

As always, take care with self-care, whatever that might look for you.

Take care.

SD

[Turkish]

SD,

Regarding codependency, and speaking as a member here, this tends to be over diagnosed here. I'm similarly struggling with my tween daughter trying to auto Dx herself as OCD...

My PsychD older and much experienced therapist stopped me back in the day: "you're not codependent. I'm treating a woman who truly is and codependency manifests itself in every single relationship in their lives."

The DSM is also Western, USA centric. If 90% of the people in a culture exhibit certain traits, then those traits aren't am aberration; they're the norm. This can be confusing for those of us in cross cultural relationships (like mine).

As for whom we're attracted to, what I learned in at risk youth mentoring is that "you don't know what you don't know." What's familiar and easy is just that. My mother is DX'd BPD (she admitted to me when I was 41!).  What she and my ex have in common is being DX'd with Anxiety and Depression. It was familiar to me to be attracted to my ex emotionally, because that was what I knew how to do easily.

It's not necessarily sexual. My mother was attracted to many people similarly, and it often got her into trouble: mostly "daughters" whose mothers were trouble. My mom was likely trying to proxy reparent herself to "save" them.

Sometimes I think, though I don't like myself going there, that my mom "rescued" me from foster care in part to bolster her self worth or prove something to The Man. She adopted me, and interracial handicapped child, in the early 70s as a single mom when that was controversial.

[crushedagain]

I had to read up on the oversharing thing because I am not super clear on what that is. It said that it is not necessarily the content of what is said, but to who it is said and oftentimes the volume of sharing. Can anybody provide more insight into this?

The only thing I can think of is when I met a woman a few years ago who I didn't particularly care for, and who told me of a time in her life when she was going to kill herself, sharing how she planned on doing it down to the very details. That was really awkward and unsettling. I had only been talking to her a few days. 

[SaltyDawg]

So your family has multiple consecutive generations of personality disorders (before you and after you), your wife has a personality disorder, a significant number of the members of your immediate family have been incarcerated or institutionalized, you have some contact with mental health professionals and are of the impression 8 out of 10 are mentally ill, and you are a 50-year old married father and are getting propositioned 10-12 times a year by younger, attractive women and in some cases men, who you would consider "out of your league" - most of which appear to have a mental illness.

... and you are wondering why you attract "crazy".

At first glance, two things come to mind:

• is there something about the area where you live that would account for this? I don't think this is at all typical of the audience here?
• are many of these people clinically diagnosed or is it primarily your assessment of them?

Thanks for responding.  I think you may have misunderstood a bit, so I will clarify, for a re-evaluation.

On my wife's side, her grandfather, dad's side, was a serial womanizer with a temper, her dad has a temper, she has a temper and shows all symptoms of BPD, our son has a temper and shows 6 symptoms.  Our daughter does not.  No-one other than our daughter is diagnosed with a mental health illness, she has AN.  Wife is (mis)diagnosed with both anxiety and depression and is on medication for both and is being treated for 'anger management issues' by her therapists.  There are excessive amounts of estrangement on multiple levels on her side of the family.  (wife's grandmother, both sides, brother, SIL, all nieces, nephews, majority of uncles and aunts on both parents sides), and our daughter is also threatening NC once she turns 18 (I have worked with our daughter, and now it seems it will me LC).  Some of these relationships have been reconciled, most have not.

On my side my mother an immigrant was strict disciplinarian, my dad also an immigrant a caretaker, my bio-brother was diagnosed with ADHD in the 1980's and was temporarily institutionalized - my parents determined it was less expensive to send me off to private boarding school for 10/11 grades and they kept him at home to keep him out of the institutions as I was my brother's primary target of blame, which shifted to my parents when I was shipped off to boarding school.  My brother estranged our side of the family until my mother was killed in a car accident and then reconciled.  My wife and I have chosen to go NC with the serial killer, as I no longer want to deal with his drama in order to maintain contact with the serial killers child.  However, the serial killer's child has gone NC with us, primarily due to the actions of one of my step brothers whom I did not grow up with.

I was an adult, 26 yo when my mom died in an accident, my dad remarried when I was 29, one of my step-brothers whom I did not grow up with is the sociopath (technically undiagnosed, but labelled by psychologytoday.com as one) serial killer and step-mom has some NPD traits, total time spent in step-brother's immediate vicinity before he was arrested is slightly less than month in total, over the span of 15 years when he was arrested in the middle of the 2010's.  I first met him at my dad's 2nd marriage.  Again, I did not grow up with the step mom; however, I have had a lot more contact there, between one and two years in aggregate since age 27 as an adult child.

I have no mental health diagnosis other than some codependent traits most of which have appeared once I was with my wife, and that is only because I requested one, but I was told, if it wasn't for the issues with your wife and children, 'I would not need to see you more than once per month at most'.  However, I did attract a technically blind stalker in high school, that went nowhere and one other summer relationship that was not sexually active (other than kissing).

Also being a service academy grad, I was required to do a psych eval prior to entrance, and I passed without issue.

My 1st girlfriend lasted 10 years from college until her mother broke us up, as I didn't want to marry her, she made the moves on me first.  2nd girlfriend was a rebound, and was a BPD/NPD nightmare that wound up on the front page for her mental health issues who seduced me on the internet when I was in a TV show chatroom.  3rd girlfriend, who is now my wife, was a setup by my wife's former boss, who also happened to be a close relation to my step mother.  Both #2 & #3 seduced me on the first date; however, I did not resist, and went along for the ride.

So, while I was growing up, until I was in college, my only exposure to mental health issues was only my bio-brother, at the time I was interviewed by a handful of his shrinks one time each, not a good impression as they bought into my bio-brother's narrative and accused me of the same lies he was saying - not cool.

Now for clarification on the hits...

The one gay hit was in a gay bar, in a resort area, one of my step brothers has an alternate lifestyle and was out with him at the time, this was pre-covid, and not counted in the dozen.  At the time, I just indicated I was 'straight' and that was it.  In the past two years 1/3 (4) of the hits occurred in resort areas.  1/4(3) the hits while I was exercising on my e-bike around my home in a very scenic area with several covered bridges which has a lot of cyclists (initially curious about the bike, then shift to asking going out for coffee/lunch, at which point I decline), the other 1/4(3) occurred while minding my own business taking my kid to activities (usually sit down next to me and start talking while I am distracted on my phone or listening to e-books on BPD).  All women were strangers to me, approached me, and started talking, most expanded into oversharing.  The two dBPD hits were in two different group meetings I attended, I think most were single with children, and I appear to be a little more affluent than most in the area, which doesn't help matters. 

I can understand the deviation at the resorts and group meeting hits, maybe the e-bike ones too as it is a novelty, but not the three that happened at my kid's activities (two sport's practices, and one card game competition).  Two of these conversations hinted they were not happy with their husbands and made it clear they were open to more, the other one wanted a father figure for their children.

Strangely enough it was 6 per year in 2022 and 2023, not a dozen per year (a dozen over two years).  So far, none this year, but then again, my wife has attended most of the sports practices more (part of her increased involvement as she has wound down her workaholism OCPD trait with therapy) and we have not yet gone to a resort this year, nor have I e-biked much as it has been too cold and icy.

Ask if you are unsure, as I would like an accurate assessment.

To summarize:

Other than my brother being dADHD, and possibly my mother being a strict disciplinarian, perhaps uOCPD, (reason given by my B for his NC), there are no direct genetic links to any mental issue on my side.  My mom's uOCPD would explain my attraction for my wife's uOCPD; however, it does not explain gf #2 - an internet rebound.

On my wife's side, while not diagnosed, there is at least 4 generations with anger management issues that I was largely unaware at the time of marriage, I knew about her dad, and that was it. 

On my step mother's side, I wouldn't call my step mom a NPD; however, my D and W do and I can see some traits, that are a bit less than the former POTUS Trump, probably less and not at a disordered level.  There is no doubt of the serial killer, as he has been analysed, from afar, by dozens of experts.

The care-taker people pleasers (ordered least to greatest).  My dad and myself will not go out of our way to please too much; however, my BIL, and my  Step Brother will go way out of their way and give you the shirt off your back and have been taken advantage of more than just their spouses..

So, while there is some issues on my side, I found a whole lot more than I bargained for with #2, while #3 is mild in comparison to the extremes of #2, but still is very volatile none the less.

So, yes, I am wondering why went from one dysfunctional FOO family member with ADHD, only to marry into a plethora of mental health issues by marrying into my wife, my dad marrying my step mom, and my extremely toxic attraction to GF#2 - that what I need help figuring out.

Let me know what you think.  Thanks.

SD

[boundriesrus]

I was literally just having this conversation with my therapist a few weeks back. I couldn't figure out for the life of me why I attracted this kind of crazy in my life. Why are both my business partners Cluster B's (NPD/ASPD and his wife BPD) and my wife possibly being High Functioning BPD, or my sister possibly being BPD, or my grandmother, or possibly my mother...and why did my dad just take it for so many years (and still does) as well as my grandfather...and it was one that day when I mapped it all out and started realizing I have been conditioned from birth. At 40 years old I am not realizing an entire pattern of behavior I never wanted to realize. Now I am having to make a ton of different life choices. Business partners and I are battling in court (caught them embezzling well over a million out of the small company we ran/started together, about to spill the beans with the wife about having to break up due to my PTSD from the sexual trauma she caused over the years, and now realizing my mother has a role in this too (of course you can't tell her that because she is never wrong and barely accepts responsibility for her actions...initallay at least).

I am sorry you are having to have the wake up call, but honestly, investigate the people around you, and ask, what am I giving these people that they don't have? Do I have co dependancy issues? Am I caretaker? Do I have low self esteem? Then take a big step back and evaluate your feelings. It is not an overnight journey and will take some time to figure it all out. Be easy on yourself during that time and learn to forgive those around you as well as yourself. The most important thing to learn from all of this, and to prevent things like this in the future, is setting STRONG boundries. It's a good way to keep yourself protected but also it weeds out those who don't respect the boundries that are given. If that is the case, move on and don't look back. You have to be a little bit selfish from here on out (at least that is what it will initially feel like...but again you were conditioned most likely to feel this way and you are no "reprogramming your brain" to think in a better manner). Stay true to yourself, explore it in therapy and trust in your gut instincts.

[livednlearned]

I am wondering if anyone else reading this find that they attract "Crazy" by having repeated BPD relationships, or other similar observations?

I wonder if maybe the question itself is a red herring.

Years ago I was in a session with my then therapist and referred to my ex-husband using the name of a well-known fictional villain.

She asked me, What comes up for you when you call him that?

It took me aback. I was trying to regain a feeling of control after not having any.

It made me feel superior. It gave me a bit of power.

After years feeling powerless and uncertain and unsafe, it's understandable that someone would want to feel good.

I also felt worse. That kind of superiority is shallow and requires near constant feeding. This man was the father of my child. He is a man more deeply traumatized than me.

It requires putting someone else in a one-down position to get in a one-up position. Someone else has to be worse.

My therapist felt I was using a short-cut to feel better (one-up position) versus staying vulnerable and focusing on the raw emotions, the scared ones that tend to go back to FOO.  

In the same spirit, I wonder what comes up for you when you refer to your wife as crazy?

[SaltyDawg]

In the same spirit, I wonder what comes up for you when you refer to your wife as crazy?

LnL,

   As always, you have thought provoking questions. 

   My short answer that I am fine calling my wife "Crazy" - if my wife is good - I am "Crazy" for her, as she is "Crazy" for me in a good way.  If my wife is bad, she often refers to herself as the "Monster" or "Lunatic" which I find has a lot more negative connotations than the word "Crazy".

   Since today is Valentines Day today, I would often see the sugary but chalky 'sweetheart' candy have  "Crazy 4 U" emblazoned on these candies in a very affectionate way.  Also, there have been many songs either in their title and/or lyrics that use the word "Crazy" in loving way as well.

   There are the expressions of "Crazy Good" and of course the more negative one of being "Crazy Bad" unless you are an 80's child, like myself, where "bad" is actually meant "good" - I think the word "Crazy" without modifiers pretty much embodies a borderline whether they are crazy in a good way or crazy in a bad way.

   One of my coping mechanisms is by using 'gallows humor' or 'dark humor' as I find it better to laugh at myself for being in this situation.  For me using a play on words that has both a very positive aspect, as well as having a very negative aspect which all depends on the current mood cycle of my pwBPD.

   However, I can see your point, that the word "Crazy" can be seen in a negative way; however, it can also be seen in a very positive way too.  I must apologize, if I have offended you, LnL, as that was not my intent.

   In fact, I have used the word "Crazy" well before I was involved with anyone with any known mental illness by stating in my college yearbook "Everyone is crazy, in their own way!"  which includes describing myself way back in the 1980's, and even now in certain aspects.

   I have deliberately chosen a word that can mean many things, just as a pwBPD can be many things.

   I hope that I haven't offended anyone else, and if I have, please accept my apology.

   Take care.

SD

[SinisterComplex]

setting STRONG boundaries. It's a good way to keep yourself protected but also it weeds out those who don't respect the boundaries that are given.

This is something I have mentioned here many times throughout the years. When you are able to set strong boundaries you will quickly learn who is true and authentic and who is not. Your social circle will probably grow smaller. The hard part for many to learn is the concept that respect always comes first. Focusing on having someone like you more than having them respect you is the mind set that leads to weak boundaries.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[Augustine]

In the same spirit, I wonder what comes up for you when you refer to your wife as crazy?

He might have made an honest assessment of his partner’s mental health.

Crazy is defined as mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.

Secondly, Deranged is synonymous with Insane which carries this definition in a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behaviour, or social interaction.

I can only speak for myself, but I can assure you that what I experienced from my partner quite easily falls into these definitions.

[EyesUp]

"Yet, even with some awareness of this dynamic, I still married someone in which I perceived a significant imbalance to be a complimentary fit. I was way off - and I need to own that, and how I not only accepted it, but contributed to it."

Only if you are self-aware, can you share how how you contributed to this?


Sure. I aspire to be self-aware, so glad to give it a shot...

Likely in response to my super emotive mother, I went in the opposite direction - I've been described as impervious. I suspect that this aspect enabled me to go quite far with my uBPDxw, as she didn't perceive much from me - where she may have provided disordered responses to others who exhibited the slightest hint of a smile or a frown, with me there just wasn't much to react to.

And, much as I withdrew from my mother, I also withdrew from my uBPDxw - a sort of safety retreat. Somehow the dynamic with my uBPDxw seemed different and exciting, yet underneath there was a current of familiarity in which I thought that my ability to listen, and empathize, was helpful - even appreciated.  However, over time, that consistent pattern became painful to my uBPDxw - she perceived that I was somehow in a power position and that she was in a weaker position - and from there, resentment flourished.

Finally, many years ago, I occasionally reciprocated my uBPDxw's frequent discussion about her family by opening up about my own. It turns out that those discussions influenced how my uBPDxw felt about my family - and about me - in unintended ways, many years later.  My x eventually played back certain discussions about my mother, etc., with extraordinary (to me) distortions, and more resentment toward me. That may have been part of a black cycle prior to the final discard, or it may have been fermenting for many years, I'll never really know.

The point is:  Early on, I thought we were developing a mutually supportive dynamic.  My willingness/ability to listen without judging or triggering my x's worst instincts ended up contributing to her resentment. I was accused to trying to control her, control everything, and cast her as a failure, a victim.  In essense, she accused me of causing her to feel the way she felt (empty, anxious, depressed), simply because I listened to her describe her anxiety and depression, along with parent resentments, and sibling jealousies, many many times.  

I could go on, but maybe that helps to paint the picture?  In short, I contributed to the dynamic simply by participating in the relationship. For a long time - repeating many patterns.  e.g., on occasions when something felt off, I remained impervious. Of course, if I had confronted my x in the moment, the relationship may have ended much sooner - instead, the relationship was maintained, in part, by my own codependent / avoidant behaviors.  Among other things.

At one point, early in the relationship, my x commented on the qualities that I possessed that she liked and found attractive. I didn't see this as love bombing - people in healthy relationships should be able to express affection with compliments or acknowledgment.  However, as our relationship reached the end, my x often cited those same attributes as things that were unacceptable to her. Without going into a lengthy discussion about what changed, I will simply say:  The constant in the equation was me...

[SaltyDawg]

one that day when I mapped it all out and started realizing I have been conditioned from birth.

For many of these things, I agree with you; however, for other things, I think it is as result of the trauma of being with our pwBPD.

I am sorry you are having to have the wake up call, but honestly, investigate the people around you, and ask, what am I giving these people that they don't have? Do I have co dependancy issues? Am I caretaker? Do I have low self esteem? Then take a big step back and evaluate your feelings. It is not an overnight journey and will take some time to figure it all out. Be easy on yourself during that time and learn to forgive those around you as well as yourself. The most important thing to learn from all of this, and to prevent things like this in the future, is setting STRONG boundries. It's a good way to keep yourself protected but also it weeds out those who don't respect the boundries that are given. If that is the case, move on and don't look back. You have to be a little bit selfish from here on out (at least that is what it will initially feel like...but again you were conditioned most likely to feel this way and you are no "reprogramming your brain" to think in a better manner). Stay true to yourself, explore it in therapy and trust in your gut instincts.

Boundaries-R-Us,

I have already been exploring this within the context of therapy for the better part of a year.  This topic was brought up in a different thread, and I expanded on it there, which in turn was moved here after it branched out, so I am comfortable enough to talk about it in the open, as I had come the realization, I am on my 2nd BPD relationship, where I was previously in an extreme situation (she has dozens and dozens of criminal charges of abuse and neglect spanning several years after I left her after she cheated on me) and was the cover girl, in a very unflattering way, for a website on abuse, that big pharma shut down nearly two decades ago.  When I was with her, I did not feel abused, other than when she crossed my only relationship boundary of being unfaithful.

I do agree with boundaries - and I like your alias, btw - and all of these boundaries revolve around a central theme of "all abuse must stop".  For the most part, I am already there.  Right now I am doing a deep dive on patterns and characteristics of codependency and caretaking - I am using the same set of patterns for each, where the distinction of codependency patterns originates from childhood trauma, for me, this was in highschool.  Whereas, caretaking patterns (of codependent patterns) originates from trauma being with a borderline.  Caretaking patterns are unique only to my romantic borderline partners and would likely disappear if we were to break up as they appeared only after I became involved with a borderline, whereas, codependent patterns exist across all close relationships since childhood.

I have compared the trauma inculcated from my wife as being far greater than facing a terrorist, as defined by our government, with a machine gun pointed at me.

I do believe that setting a very strong boundary is only one of many steps, albeit a very important step to break the cycle of intimately loving PD'd partners.

I do appreciate your perspective, and most of it resonates, and also believe that boundaries are only part of the equation to avoiding attracting these types of people.

As we are all involved in high stress relationships, please make sure you fill your cup with self-care whatever that looks like for you.

Take  care.

SD

[Caesar46]

We dont attract them we become their victim. Most of the time they are the only one's around us respond to our love needs so we fall for them.

A normal person rejects the other one if they are not feeling any attaction but BDP's and NPD's love hunting us. They know we have huge emptahy and this is the crack they slip in.

[Turkish]

I once called my then not ex crazy what I thought was colloquially, like you'd say to a buddy. She stopped and glared at me, "don't EVER call me crazy!" *yipes*

In retrospect, this aligns with the feelings of a person with extremely low self esteem with BPD traits or not: feeling worthless and unlovable, self-critical from the avatars of memory who caused such pain.

Years ago, the family therapist my ex abandoned me to told me, "there's nothing wrong with being kind." This was in the "divorce" stage. If I had to simplify it: why would I want to kick a puppy? It's a puppy, in thrall to its puppiness."

Having said that, maybe I'm trying to one up myself like livednlearned said  

[crushedagain]

We dont attract them we become their victim. Most of the time they are the only one's around us respond to our love needs so we fall for them.

A normal person rejects the other one if they are not feeling any attaction but BDP's and NPD's love hunting us. They know we have huge emptahy and this is the crack they slip in.

I am a sucker for them. I now realize I have mistaken their excessive early attention, oversharing and love-bombing as legitimate interest rather than the manipulation and neediness it really was.

I guess from now on I need to go after the women who are much more guarded and only slowly open up over time, because perhaps their love with actually grow instead of myself ending up with these types who cannot love me and discard me.

[Turkish]

I am a sucker for them. I now realize I have mistaken their excessive early attention, oversharing and love-bombing as legitimate interest rather than the manipulation and neediness it really was.

I guess from now on I need to go after the women who are much more guarded and only slowly open up over time, because perhaps their love with actually grow instead of myself ending up with these types who cannot love me and discard me.

This is the conundrum, and I still struggle with this: being attracted to people who are ultimately emotionally unavailable.

[Skip]

Figuring out why I attract Crazy?

You don't.

First, I would use a word that supports clear thinking like "emotionally available and willing to value me" (not crazy). And I would rephrase the question to be something like, "why am I willing to overlook significant personal issues in another person to have access to emotionally availability and being valued"?

Others have said this above in different ways.

So, we conducted a survey a few years back asking members what kind of emotional state they were in when the got involved with their "BPD" or "BPD-ish" partner. Overwhelmingly, members described being in a situationally vulnerable state; recently broken up from another relationship, recently divorced, lost a job, learned of a health issue, financial problems, dealing with the death/loss of someone dear, etc. Others described longer term vulnerabilities such as lack of confidence, feeling unlovable, feeling old, substance abuse problems, underachievement. Feelings of be  undervalued. Wounded.

Vulnerable.

Only a small percent were "on their game".

People with BPD undervalue themselves and tend to seek relationships with some level of imbalance in their favor. They learn from experience that they will be more appreciated in this type of paring (e.g. younger women with older man, extrovert with introvert, "hot" with "average looking", sexual, etc.)

This is why we encourage members coming out of these relationships to do their best to not see themselves as victims and be again be vulnerable. This is not to say that the relationship and the problems were their fault. Hardly. But it is to say that need based, compensating relationships which we think our solving our problems may just be trading one problem for another.

Being idealized by an attractive partner when we are in a weakened state, is a powerful force. And for our partner, having someone idealizing them back is equally powerful.

[SaltyDawg]

We dont attract them we become their victim. Most of the time they are the only one's around us respond to our love needs so we fall for them.

A normal person rejects the other one if they are not feeling any attaction but BDP's and NPD's love hunting us. They know we have huge emptahy and this is the crack they slip in.

I can see how it would appear that we are their intentional victim; however, I do not buy in to the victim mentality as they are only doing what they instinctually, at a subconscious level, know how to do in order to have people give them attention they crave.  If anything they are their own victims of their own mental illness.  However, i do agree with you that they are the only one's around at that time to respond to her need for love and attention which in turn causes us to fall for them.

I thought I was a normal person, and when I met up my wife, I thought she was very attractive and seemingly ticked all the right boxes, almost every single one of them.  It was a setup from people I trusted.  She seemed "too good to be true" - I was smitten, and fell for her head over heels.  There was one early on, I asked about it, and the flag disappeared.  Since I thought she was too good to be true, I did pull out a relationship book series each one containing 1,001 questions, if it's a three book series, i had her answer 2/3 of the questions while I answered 1/3, and we agreed on 3,001 of the 3,003 questions - a nearly flawless mirroring of my desires prior to getting married.  In retrospect, there were plenty of yellow flags, didn't feel right in my gut that I met the perfect woman.  To tell you the truth I really didn't learn about red flags or yellow flags until about a year and a half ago.

However, the exgf, was a different story though, I met her on a web chat room for a TV show, and when I went out to see her for the first time, I should have run, and I didn't, as I had compassion, pity, sympathy, and empathy for her situation, so it lasted a couple of years (as I am a very loyal, too loyal), a couple years too long.  This was a painful learning lesson, that cost me around $50,000 and two years of my time.  I tried to make the situation better, and fix things, which only made it worse.

In summary the uBPD/uNPD/+exgf it was painfully obvious that she was defective the moment I met her in person; however, my uBPD/uOCPDw not so much, until the love bombing ended and was slowly replaced with a nightmare with the first indication of something seriously wrong after I had fully committed in the relationship 2 weeks after a 3 week honeymoon after getting married (5 weeks after marriage).

[SaltyDawg]

I am a sucker for them. I now realize I have mistaken their excessive early attention, oversharing and love-bombing as legitimate interest rather than the manipulation and neediness it really was.

I guess from now on I need to go after the women who are much more guarded and only slowly open up over time, because perhaps their love with actually grow instead of myself ending up with these types who cannot love me and discard me.

I too am a sucker for them. On my first borderline relationship I would agree with that. However, I was very much interested in the second one, as she seemed to have ticked all the boxes and what I was looking for.

If and when the relationship with my wife ends, i am not sure if I want to seek out another relationship, at least for the first few years after it ends.  In the meantime I am working with my therapist in order to identify my own issues, and work on those, so I can learn and grow from my mistakes in order to be a better person and not repeat this same mistake so I've done in a past regarding any kind of relationship.

Interesting that you mentioned women who cannot love you and then discard you. My wife as indicated that she does not love me, however, she cannot discard me. She did attempt it and when I called her bluff she couldn't do it.

My exgf did a discard cycle, I only came back to collect my stuff that she had held hostage in her possession, as I had already moved on when she tried to recycle about 5 months after the discard.  I suspect my wife knows that I don't put up with recycle attempts, hence the reason she probably did not follow through on her bluff.

I am hoping my wife can become self-aware on the last few sticking points, to return to the person who I fell in love with - I doubt that can be done, so I am staying just long enough until both children age out and 'launch' into life before changing my own personal scenery.

[Skip]

I guess from now on I need to go after the women who are much more guarded and only slowly open up over time...

Not sure this is the lesson to learn. 

If you drove your drove through railroad crossing in a white truck and were hit buy a train, would the lesson be "don't buy white trucks"? Would white trucks be a red flag? Would not having a white truck makes you safe from trains?

This is why Red Flag strategies don't work. 

Its not what to avoid in a women, it is what intrinsic values do you seek?  It is about learning how to read and understand people.

... And of course if the tell you on the first date they have herpes, had a lesbian affair in college, have 2 DUI's, and cheated on their third husband with his best friend - its a pretty good indication that they don't manage life consistent with your values.

[once removed]

Red Flag strategies
...
"love bombing"

"i shot my ex husband" is a red flag, one that might even justify "running for the hills", and certainly should be avoided  . "i love you so much, youre my soulmate" is a mating ritual that no one is bound to reciprocate, but if you do so repeatedly, is a strong indicator of what you are attracted to.

[SaltyDawg]

"i shot my ex husband" is a red flag, one that might even justify "running for the hills", and certainly should be avoided  . "i love you so much, youre my soulmate" is a mating ritual that no one is bound to reciprocate, but if you do so repeatedly, is a strong indicator of what you are attracted to.

Well, even that particular isn't so obvious, my step brother, a different cluster-B PD with ASPD - sociopath variant (did not grow up with him) used the statement "My previous wife died in an accident", he didn't bother to mention it was a 'staged' accident.  Who is going to question that kind of statement?  A surgeon didn't question it, and now she is in the same place as his first wife.  A third woman was being groomed by the time law enforcement caught up to him.

Regarding the 'soulmate' comment - my first BPD girlfriend tried this, it didn't work, and I did not reciprocate, she discarded me.  However, the 2nd one, much higher functioning with different comorbidities also said the 'soulmate' thing, a lot later in the courtship phase, by that time I was drawn in, hook, line, sinker, and rod, and I was hooked as I was very naive, and too nice as well and didn't think anything was wrong at all - lesson learned, I won't make that mistake again.

[Turkish]

Then that's your value now, and boundaries should align to your personal values. IMNSHO, there is no such thing as "soul mates;" it's magical thinking. Those who believe disagree. That is part of their values toolbox.

[SaltyDawg]

Then that's your value now, and boundaries should align to your personal values. IMNSHO, there is no such thing as "soul mates;" it's magical thinking. Those who believe disagree. That is part of their values toolbox.

Turkish,

   Thank you for sharing.  While I do like the concept of 'soul mates', and I bought into it one (out of the two times).  At the time I was still quite naive, and bought into it.  I know better now, and will be keeping it 'real' as I move forward and not deal with the 'magical thinking'.

   Since you are an admin here for some time now - I am wondering if you know of a thread that deals with the topic of 'magical thinking', so I, and others, can get a better understanding of this, as I have been burned by it.

   Thanks, and be sure to do self-care.

    Take care.

SD

[Turkish]

Turkish,
   Since you are an admin here for some time now - I am wondering if you know of a thread that deals with the topic of 'magical thinking', so I, and others, can get a better understanding of this, as I have been burned by it.

I've mentioned it in the past wrt my mother (get rich quick schemes) and my ex (that and her powers of positive thinking and the like) but I didn't find any threads that discuss the concept in depth. If you want to start one, I'll participate.

[zachira]

I find that the kind of people I attract and allow into my inner circle reflect where ever I am in my personal development. For most of my life, my inner circle was mostly filled with disordered family members and disordered people And I was extremely  disordered myself. Now I am low contact/no contact with most of my disordered family members and do my best to set the boundaries I need to protect myself from disordered people while continuing to develop the self-esteem and self-respect I need to have healthier relationships with myself and other people. I have very few friends and the ones I do have are healthy people who challenge my disordered behaviors that I learned from growing up in an extremely disordered large extended family. Overall I am a happier healthier person while at times still very challenged by having poor boundaries with the wrong kind of people, though mostly the disordered people do not want to be around me when I set healthier boundaries. My number one rule is I do not continue social relationships with people who show no genuine interest in me or who abuse others. The business relationships are much more complicated. Right now my neighbor is furious with me because I refused to bow down to her demands to join her in abusing the President of the HOA who does his best to be democratic and respectful to all the owners. I have been too nice to this neighbor for years while keeping my mouth shut about her disordered behaviors. She has been mad at me since Christmas, apparently because I sent the HOA President a present to thank him for all the work he does for the HOA. When we have a history of disordered relationships, we will sometimes get triggered by being the target of a  disordered person, which sometimes is partially our fault for having poor personal boundaries, and other times not our fault at all as we had no control over the situation. I see the biggest challenge is not to be so triggered by the interactions with disordered people while continuing to work on our boundaries. We are all a work in progress on this site. What I respect about most of the members on this site is their willingness to own their part in what happens to them while also being open to the fact that some people do not have the capacity to have reciprocal healthy relationships.

[Notwendy]

I'm going to assume using "crazy" as a term is only a general one to mean disordered people and not to insult anyone.

 don't know if it's initial attraction or that someone stays in the relationship after attraction.

People who have emotionally healthy boundaries tend to feel a sense of discomfort around people who don't. People who don't have emotionally healthy boundaries might feel a sense of familiarity.

It's not just with romantic relationships but with others too. I recall meeting a woman at a party and she was disclosing TMI for just meeting her. I felt uneasy at that exchange. I also met someone who is very co-dependent and I don't feel comfortable around her.

I do know that I am better at this kind of "feeling uneasy" since I did some personal work on co-dependency.

There's a lot to being attractive besides the physical- a pleasant personality, confidence, I think it's possible that we can be initually attracted to, and attractive to, a number of people. But how far that goes is influenced by boundaries.

It may be that if someone needs to work on boundaries, they attract crazy and not crazy -- but the relationship progresses with the "crazy" if it feels like a match.

[SaltyDawg]

I'm going to assume using "crazy" as a term is only a general one to mean disordered people and not to insult anyone.

NW - I personally have a neutral view on the term "crazy".  Skip split this thread off from the 'gut feeling' thread, and used my words in the new subject line.  I can see how it might insult someone, and that was not my intention when posting in the previous thread on the topic. 

I am a child of the 1980's when the term was actually used as a term of endearment as given by the example of https://images.app.goo.gl/THkZFNkbSvg5ywLG9

don't know if it's initial attraction or that someone stays in the relationship after attraction.

This is exactly what I am trying to figure out on why someone stays in the relationship after attraction.  I personally believe this could have been instilled from my own childhood, where 'obligation' to take care, and follow through on a commitment, and not run on the first sign of trouble - unfortunately I feel that this sense of obligation that was instilled in me did not serve me well in my first BPD relationship, an exgf who was quite obviously had her own set of issues having symptoms of both BPD and NPD at disordered levels.

I am much more concerned with why and how I attracted my wife who has all 9 symptom groups of BPD (except self-mutilation); whereas the exgf only had 6, but had most if not all of NPD symptoms from the DSM IV / 5.  During our courtship, she seemed to be quite the opposite of the exgf.  The exgf was incredibly messy, my wife a neat freak.  The exgf could not hold down a decent job, my wife could hold down a good job; however, she changed departments/jobs almost like clockwork every 18 months to two years except for her most recent one where she has been reprimanded, like clockwork in the same timeframe.  The exgf was terrible with money, my wife is very good with money to the point of being cheap and miserly, except on a few occasions where she was quite impulsive and did the opposite up to the 5-figure range, which we could afford.  The exgf did TMI and shared her FOO story - very messed up, the wife indicated she didn't other than her dad had quite a temper and had an ultra regimented work ethic of a poor farmer.  The exgf wanted to marry me, I refused to commit, so she cheated on me twice - e-mail evidence in both cases, so it is irrefutable.

With both women I feel an obligation; however, the exgf crossed what seems to be my only boundary - being loyal, so it was easy to 'dump' her, even though I did ensure she was financially covered for the next several months when I did so with parting gifts of a used car, and cash to feed her children and animals.

People who have emotionally healthy boundaries tend to feel a sense of discomfort around people who don't. People who don't have emotionally healthy boundaries might feel a sense of familiarity.

For me, it was a sense of duty, or obligation/guilt, which did have a sense of familiarity.  Other than physical abuse, I did not feel as though I was being abused emotionally, verbally, psychologically until I read an article on the topic and discussed it with my individual therapists.  I like to think of myself more as a survivor who is rescuing myself emotionally from the situation, rather than maintaining a victim perspective from the logical mind perspective.

It's not just with romantic relationships but with others too. I recall meeting a woman at a party and she was disclosing TMI for just meeting her. I felt uneasy at that exchange. I also met someone who is very co-dependent and I don't feel comfortable around her.

With the help of my individual T I have been 'learning' to recognize these kinds of behaviors.  While I used to find it interesting to listen to TMI some of the time, it now makes me feel uneasy too.

With regards to codependency - I find that most of the patterns that I have from CoDA literature only are relevant when I am in a dedicated romantic relationship.  Others have noticed this too, while only a handful of core patterns/characteristics exist in my relationships outside of the romantic ones.  I am in the process of recovering from my own issues as shown in the following document https://coda.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/2011-Patterns-of-Recovery-2015.pdf and I too find certain codependent patterns to now trigger my 'gut feeling' that something is off, kind of like a 6th sense.

I had these feelings for both the exgf and the wife, I listened to my gut on the exgf as it was more obvious; however, I did not listen to my gut on my wife.  I went so far as to look it up on the Internet way back in 2002, as I was thinking my wife was/is "too good to be true".  So I got self-help books on the topic.  They told me what we now call 'love bombing' - some other term was used back then would last for a year or less, and only on rare occasions no more than a maximum of two years - so I waited until we were well beyond the two year mark before getting married.

Also, to logically justify the 'too good to be true' feeling, I also bought a 3 book set of 1001 questions to ask before you got married.  I had her answer 2/3 of the questions first, I answered 1/3 of the questions first, we had the same answers on 3001 out of 3003 questions - she completely mirrored my wants and needs, I now know this is another yellow or even red flag; however, at the time I thought it was 3001 green flags to proceed.

I do know that I am better at this kind of "feeling uneasy" since I did some personal work on co-dependency.

Same for me.  There are no other hard-core addictions like many who are codependent in myself, or either of these women which makes it that much harder to detect. 

There's a lot to being attractive besides the physical- a pleasant personality, confidence, I think it's possible that we can be initually attracted to, and attractive to, a number of people. But how far that goes is influenced by boundaries.

It may be that if someone needs to work on boundaries, they attract crazy and not crazy -- but the relationship progresses with the "crazy" if it feels like a match.

I am attracted to physical.  I am attracted to a good sense of humor.  I am attracted to loyalty.  I also have a check-list where there needs to be a majority of boxes ticked (>50%).  When my wife is regulated, she still hits most of those boxes, except emotional & physical intimacy categories back when we first met she was love bombing me, and it was >100% and seemed 'too good to be true'. 

The boundaries I have put in place to help manage her rages and dysregulation have also created more emotional distance in the intimacy department as I enforce the consequence by not JADEing or temporary stonewalling until she becomes re-regulated. 

I didn't have boundaries other than being faithful (exgf issue, left on 2nd after I gave her a warning on the 1st infraction), and no physical violence to a lesser extent (wife issue, have not left, but I will call 911 the next time this happens) - I did a an abuse profile ever category was 90+% greater than those who took the test except for physical violence which was 20% greater than average, because of my pre-existing boundary.  So, with the help of my therapist, I came up with a singular topic boundary of "all abuse must stop", which seems to work in my case, I retook this test, all categories have dropped, but it is still present instead of being 90%+ greater than others who have taken this assessment, it is now 40% greater than average and violence is less too.  Instead of being several times a week, it is now once every couple of months where she becomes severely dysregulated as she now knows I will not put up with her B.S. on this.

I also did a mosaic DV assessment and it scored an 8/10 which is high.

To summarize, I am developing a better recognition of being with pwPD's than I had before.  My gut feeling was right in both cases, I listened the first time, I didn't the 2nd time as she seemed 'too good to be true'.  I now know to listen to my gut feeling, recognize destructive patterns of caretaking / codependence and will now follow them in the future.

Outside of recognizing codependent patterns in myself and those in a potential partner, oversharing, developing and maintaining firm boundaries, is there anything else that I am missing?

I am aware of lists of red-flags, where there needs to be a lot of flags present not just one.  The SWOE book has a list of 10 issues where outside help is needed, it also has a nice assessment and several areas of issues to look out for. 

Thanks for letting me share.

Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

I find that the kind of people I attract and allow into my inner circle reflect where ever I am in my personal development. For most of my life, my inner circle was mostly filled with disordered family members and disordered people And I was extremely  disordered myself. Now I am low contact/no contact with most of my disordered family members and do my best to set the boundaries I need to protect myself from disordered people while continuing to develop the self-esteem and self-respect I need to have healthier relationships with myself and other people.

On my side of the family, I am not seeing too much in the way of pwBPD, even though I do have a step-B with ASPD - sociopath, but I did not grow up with him, nor did I spend much time with him before he was incarcerated for his crimes.  However, on my wife's side of the family, especially on her father's side, it is really messed up in a cluster-b kind of way (BPD/HPD), my wife's grandfather, and grand-uncle were serial womanizers, and I just learned a few days ago, the grand-uncle shared the same woman with his father (great grand uncle) - ick.  There was and continues to be a lot of estrangement (NC) with extended family that are still living, most are deceased.  Even though there was NC in an attempt to break that chain, while infidelity was addressed, the other components were not recognized, nor addressed (anger management, even though my wife is currently working on that area with success), there is still the genetic component that the DSM talks about.

I have very few friends and the ones I do have are healthy people who challenge my disordered behaviors that I learned from growing up in an extremely disordered large extended family. Overall I am a happier healthier person while at times still very challenged by having poor boundaries with the wrong kind of people, though mostly the disordered people do not want to be around me when I set healthier boundaries. My number one rule is I do not continue social relationships with people who show no genuine interest in me or who abuse others.

I too have very few friends, as my wife would get jealous, first at females, with whom she told me to hang out with, and later guy friends too.  I allowed myself to be isolated from these friends as I put all my effort (at the time) into appeasing my wife's insatiable demand for the love language of service with almost nothing in return.  I have changed this, it is no longer >100:1 ratio, my goal is 50:50, but in reality it is more like 67:33, which is much more manageable than before.

The business relationships are much more complicated. Right now my neighbor is furious with me because I refused to bow down to her demands to join her in abusing the President of the HOA who does his best to be democratic and respectful to all the owners. I have been too nice to this neighbor for years while keeping my mouth shut about her disordered behaviors. She has been mad at me since Christmas, apparently because I sent the HOA President a present to thank him for all the work he does for the HOA.

The thing is, with any relationship outside of a romantic one, I really don't have these kinds of issues.  If I do not have an emotional investment in someone I am dealing with, I do have healthy boundaries, except when I become emotionally attached to someone in a romantic way.  If I disagree with someone, I will tell them to their face, and not hide it.  While I am generally a people pleaser; however, when it goes against written regulation, or what I perceive to be the establishment, I have no problem pushing back.  Now if it is a person in authority, I will quote regulation/rules/law/international standards, and give multiple examples.  I've been asked by neighbors when a local business wanted to convert a historical property into a parking lot.  This business openly admitted to supplying kickbacks (in the form of buying a fire trucks and equipment and donating it to the fire department in exchange of free services from the county) while committing a multitude of safety violations, so they thought they had a shoe in, they lost, as I and other drummed up support to block their corporate greed.

Likewise, when I was asked to break certain laws at work by a very high authority who created the law, I pushed back, and obtained a written waiver in order to do what I was asked to do.  On other occasions, I needed to think outside the box, to make things happen, get permission to do so, and make it happen.

I will first try a one on one approach, and if that doesn't work, I escalate the issue, by involving others.  As part of my job was homeland security, I am a firm believer in "if you see something, say something".  I suspect you did that with your neighbor lady, and now she doesn't like you since you stood up to her as she perceives you took the side of the HOA president by thanking him and giving him a gift.  I personally don't like HOA's so I do have one.  When I did, I was criticized for having a tasteful dark metal dolphin statue in our front yard that was received as a wedding gift.  Statues weren't allowed by HOA rules, I didn't know the rule at that time, until I was made aware.  We were going to move anyways, so I asked nicely to keep it, or I could do like another neighbor did and have obnoxious plastic pink flamingos with the backs cut-out into the form plant planters (which were allowed) to do a protest.  The HOA president saw my point, and allowed the tasteful statue, as I assured him, it would go with me when we moved, and it did.

In this regard, I have a very strong sense of self, except when I get emotionally attached to someone - that is my achilles heel.  In my previous post responding to NW, with the help of my individual T, and all those who have posted here on 'boundaries', I now have stronger boundaries with those that I am emotionally attached to whether it is my wife, and/or children.  Now that I have boundaries, they do complain that I will 'dig in' my heels.  With regards to boundaries, I am still working on them, especially when dealing with a person in authority as they have power over you. 

When we have a history of disordered relationships, we will sometimes get triggered by being the target of a  disordered person, which sometimes is partially our fault for having poor personal boundaries, and other times not our fault at all as we had no control over the situation. I see the biggest challenge is not to be so triggered by the interactions with disordered people while continuing to work on our boundaries. We are all a work in progress on this site. What I respect about most of the members on this site is their willingness to own their part in what happens to them while also being open to the fact that some people do not have the capacity to have reciprocal healthy relationships.

While working with my therapist, I realized that I have a repeated a pattern of being with two very different pwBPD, as I went for someone who had opposite traits that mattered to me at the time (as described in my previous post), yet still had BPD symptoms at a more disordered level than the previous one who was actually called out by a regional newspaper on her issues more than a year after I abandoned her.

I agree we are all a work in progress, I am determined not to make the same mistakes twice, so I am trying to understand why I attract pwBPD or other cluster-B type traits since I actually attracted them to me, even with a wedding band on my finger.  Right now I am able to recognize them, so I limit my interactions with them with boundaries.

For me, I have certain patterns/characteristics of codependence/caretaking that has allowed these types of people in my life.  My personal goal, is to close that door, and open more healthy doors in the future.  When I started to explore this in a different thread, it was locked.

I am worked on getting my wife to become self-aware (previously she wasn't) and she is partially self-aware (she recognizes 6 of the symptoms, and has worked on each of those areas with her own individual therapist - not DBT).  I promised my wife, I would not leave her as long as she worked on these issues - a boundary to not be abusive behavior by her.

So I am asking anyone to join in the discussion, on why they feel they attract them and/or attracted to them and more importantly - Why?

Thanks for letting me vent a bit more.

Take care with self care.

SD

[Notwendy]

SD- I'm OK with the "crazy" term- just being careful - and that is probably an aspect of my own co-dependency - thankfully less so after a lot of work. You say your tendencies are less with non romantic relationships and I think that is true with many people too- as we have less invested in less intimate relationships.

Identifying this was not instinctual. Co-dependency is the "norm" in my family growing up. My responses to my BPD mother are automatic- we were all her emotional caretakers and has led me to "overfunction". I can catch myself doing this but it has taken some work.

Our families of origin influence our sense of comfort and familiarity in a relationship. Perhaps a part of the "attraction" is that we feel a sense of purpose or even identity when we are overfunctioning or emotionally caretaking and so stay in a relationship in this pattern. This would attract someone who responds to that dynamic. There is also a sense of feeling safe in the dynamic when we are the ones overfunctioning.

I think we grow up "practicing" what aspect of ourselves are functional to get what we want. Being useful to BPD mother was a way to get approval.

My BPD mother seems to be good at attracting people- and so perhaps this is a practiced skill for her- maybe a way she felt approval growing up. Some people are drawn to her. It seems like someone is always doing things for her. I recognized later that these were people who were also "rescuers" and somehow were drawn to her need for caretaking- people with co-dependent traits. 

I also think my mother is good at hiding her BPD traits as a way to avoid shame. I would feel terrible to think someone wouldn't like her if they "knew". So this isn't a manipulation but fear- fear that someone would not want to be with her if they knew her issues- and so the behaviors are apparent to the people closest to her- who are more connected to her.

I think it takes some time to get to know someone well. We put our "best foot forward" when dating someone- and that is normal but for someone with BPD- that best foot forward is a protective one for them. I think my mother's "best foot forward" is impressive and until her elder years when she started acting out with caregivers, most people didn't have a clue about her BPD behaviors. However, relationships with her are not reciprocal and I have seen where some people are attracted to her initially and eventually draw back and the friendship didn't last.

So what would attract you to someone like my BPD mother? First, she's attractive- and also charming and most people are attracted to her. Then, if she asks you to do something for her, she is very appreciative and complimentary. If eventually you tried to have boundaries or need to say "no" to a request- she'd feel very hurt and you'd feel like a jerk. That would be uncomfortable for you. When my mother is in that mode, it's a horrible feeling to see her that unhappy and the tendency to fix it is strong. It is very difficult to say "no" to her and see that reaction. 

So maybe it's not only looking at red flags in another person but seeing the patterns between people that could be informative. How you are feeling and responding in the relationship might be a clue.

[EyesUp]

Attraction is super complicated - it's contextual, circumstantial, experiential...  there is no formula. It's also highly individual.

A few basics tend to stand out - we are attracted to what's familiar, and also to what we perceive to be different than ourselves. Sometimes this occurs consciously, sometimes not.

This stuff devolves into cliche very quickly - it's the stuff of one-liners in rom-coms...  our partners eventually remind us of mom or dad, somehow - in some way.

Well, of course they do... we spend our formative time with our parents, and that experience has a disproportionate impact on how we perceive, well, everything. More than we generally know...

I appreciate the impulse toward forensic analysis - and let's agree, analysis is often helpful, it's what many of us are here for.  That said...  it's very hard to achieve a crisp and conclusive understanding of most relationships, and I think it's fair to say that disordered relationships are even more difficult to, well, analyze.  

Freud implied that with some analysis, everything might appear in black and white on the page...  but if that was true, the science of relationships would be well established by now, and relationships would be a lot easier to understand at this point. There would be fewer therapists, psychologists, or psychiatrists in the world, and healthy relationships would be easier to form and maintain - because studying relationships would be more like geometry or calculus - repeatable, predictable, provable.  

Unfortunately, that's not the case.

My feeling is: relationships remain difficult to understand, and disordered relationships are, by definition, much harder to understand.

However...  

Individually, we may be able to make some sense of our own choices.  Why did we start a given relationship?  Why did we remain in a given relationship?  What did we willingly overlook, or what did we miss entirely?  etc.

On the flip side, it's almost impossible to understand a disordered partner's motivation.  Is it specific to us (i.e., on some level we fit into the usual patterns of familiarity - or something different, exotic, exciting)?  Or more generalized (i.e., we were... available)?

A bit of dark humor, but I'm reminded of Richard Pryor's joke about the psychopath:  
Q: "why did you kill everyone in the house?"
A: "they were home"

The question presumes that there is a rational motive...  you know, the good police detective is seeking an actual explanation.  But the answer doesn't include a rational explanation.  What's rational to the psychopath isn't a valid explanation for a horrific crime.  And yet, to the psychopath, it is, nonetheless, an explanation.

I feel it's the same with a lot of BPD relationships... one partner is looking for compatibility - you know, mutual attraction, shared values, similar tastes and preferences...   the other partner is, on some level, disordered.  Intuitively, the disordered partner knows how to adopt the appearance of compatibility, but with a typically weak sense of self, doesn't truly have a strong feeling about a, b, c., but knows that a, b, c are probably necessary in order to have a relationship. The disordered partner attempts to "fake it until you make it" - which, to the non-disordered partner, seems incredible, amazing:  we like the same music! the same food! insatiable libido!  etc...

And there's the attraction:
- one partner thinks things are lining up well organically
- the partner is working hard to make sure line things up well, but on some very basic level this effort is artificial - it's not sincere, authentic, organic - and this partner may not even be aware that what they are doing is misleading.

Eventually, over time - weeks, months, years... the fundamental misalignments become apparent in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.  At which point it's become very difficult to make sense of the misalignments - for either partner.

So - Does anyone "attract crazy?" - I think it's possible, but it's also probable that some of us - for a variety of reasons - merely accept crazy.  i.e., we find ourselves in disordered relationships for all the reasons covered at this site, and elsewhere:  At a particular moment, we are vulnerable, susceptible, and available.

Ultimately, we can only control ourselves.

On some level, we're here because we didn't "listen to our gut" or "our picker wasn't calibrated" or we were effectively "love bombed" and didn't spot the "red flags" - etc.

Is that "attracting crazy" or is that merely accepting it, at a particular moment in time?

[Notwendy]

Good point about accepting "crazy" or even other aspects that aren't crazy but an uneven relationship or people not treating us well- which can go along with crazy or on their own.

I think there is a reason for BPD behaviors and it is to meet a need for them. The need is what is possibly irrational. Maybe a twist on the Ricard Pryor comment - why did you murder these people? - to release some feelings and they happened to be home.

An underlying motive for my BPD mother's behavior is to get relief for feelings that are personally hurtful for her. The irrationality is that we have no idea why she has them and so her behavior appears irrational and directed at people who have nothing to do with causing the feelings but she seems to believe they do.

She has a huge need for validation. Even the slightest suggestion can feel invalidating to her. She also has a need for control- and control is a way for people to reduce her anxiety.

One way she gets emotional needs met is to have people do things for her, even things she could do for herself. Since it's emotional needs the request can seem irrational but it's the "doing it" or "getting it" that is the need, not the actual solution. It also has to be done exactly to her specification or she feels slighted.  A mistake, or slight, is reacted to as if it is the "crime of the century" and her feelings are hurt by that.

I can see the pattern. People are attracted to her. She starts by requesting someone help her with something and she will be so appreciative and flattering and for some men, this has seemed to be an attraction- all this attention from this attractive woman when they help her.

But say "no" to her and you will feel like the biggest jerk. It also goes against morality to hurt someone like that. However, you aren't doing something hurtful- she is responding as if she is and to her, she feels that way.

So here is where the accepting part and not trusting your gut comes in. Her public persona is fake. You will eventually feel something is "off" but still, it feels good to be helping her. And when she's good, she's amazing. Eventually though, the relationship feels unbalanced and emotionally taxing. You try a boundary- she will first "feel hurt" but if that doesn't get you back into doing for her mode- you will then see the other side of her: the raging, the verbal abuse, and blaming you for that.

There was a time where some women in my community would just yell at me and I didn't know why. I finally asked one of them why she did that and her response was "because I can".

And she was correct. To get by in my family of origin, we had to be doormats- basically obey my mother and tolerate her behavior. Seeing that this woman also treated other people this way- I suspect now that she probably had BPD, but not then. She has since moved out of town Somehow I wanted her to accept me as a friend,  tolerated her behavior,  and kept trying to be her friend- while perhaps other people would have not done so.

People don't do this to me now since doing work on co-dependency. One of the sayings is that we "teach people how to treat us" by not accepting being treated poorly. We can't change another person but we can change what beaviors we tolerate and accept. 

 

[Skip]

I did a an abuse profile ever category was 90+% greater than those who took the test except for physical violence which was 20% greater than average, because of my pre-existing boundary.  So, with the help of my therapist, I came up with a singular topic boundary of "all abuse must stop", which seems to work in my case, I retook this test, all categories have dropped, but it is still present instead of being 90%+ greater than others who have taken this assessment, it is now 40% greater than average and violence is less too.  Instead of being several times a week, it is now once every couple of months where she becomes severely dysregulated as she now knows I will not put up with her B.S. on this.

I also did a mosaic DV assessment and it scored an 8/10 which is high.

Can you say more about the abuse you are facing?  Is it safe to be in the home with her? Does she know what you consider abuse? Does she think you are abusive?

8/10 is significant.

[SaltyDawg]

Can you say more about the abuse you are facing?  Is it safe to be in the home with her? Does she know what you consider abuse? Does she think you are abusive?

8/10 is significant.

Abuse I have faced.... There was limited hitting, punching, kicking of actual physical violence, none of them left a mark on my body, and the worst one I felt for 3 days physically - my wife is physically weaker than me, but this kind of behavior does not make it any more acceptable.  There have been two incidents of projected violence, smacking the crap out of a wall twice, and throwing a snow shovel at our daughter which I did not witness.  These have been stopped with the help of the two most recent couple's therapists and her individual therapist.  The next time physical violence happens, will result in a call to 911 as established by the former couple's therapist and reinforced by the current one.  I currently have and have had strong boundaries on physical violence, so there have only been 7 incidents of significance here, only 2 of which have occurred since the 911 boundary was put in place.

She punched me in the arm over me not moving 'elf on the shelf' but immediately apologized profusely, and we had a couple's therapy session about 45 minutes later, where it was discussed ad nauseam - I used my judgement not to call 911 in this situation, as she immediately recognized her error, otherwise I would have - this is the only incident of physical violence since the 911 boundary was put into place.  I also 'allowed' my wife to describe it as a 'shoving' incident, to which the couple's therapist agreed in spite of acknowledging the behavior (I believe she knowingly bended her mandated reporter requirement, as she was former CPS involved well versed in these kinds of behaviors).  The other incident occurred out of my line of sight against our daughter with a snow shovel being thrown near her.  Daughter was inside of her car, and the shovel did not hit the car - this too was brought up to the therapist and discussed at length.  I know my wife would never *intentionally* do this; however, as she can put mind over matter, and control herself, most of the time, and has improving greatly in the past 14 months on her physical violence and abusive behaviors.  However, she *still* does have the capability to explode with the littlest of stressors.

The first time physical violence happened, I contacted the local DV shelter - they politely told me F- off, as I was a man and I had a 'good head on' my shoulders and offered no help at all (2009) - this made me feel so alone in this, so I remained silent, and afraid to talk about it until 20 months ago.  My wife scared herself straight, as the 2nd incident was witnessed by our toddler daughter at the time and she didn't want to do that in front of our daughter. 

It was 13 years later for the 3rd (several punches in my back) incident and a 4th (a singular kick to my 'good' knee) 88 minutes later, which was not reported as I had written a letter to our couple's therapist indicating the first two incidents and a litany of false narratives that were being levied against me by my wife that therapist believed my wife and not me.  Ironically, these two closely spaced incidents was only hours prior to our weekly session (the letter had been written a few days before), so the therapist confirmed what I wrote was true, and proceeded to read my wife the riot act on physical violence, and informed her that those incidents were being reported (the T is a mandated reporter), but indicated because of the age of the incident, nothing was likely to happen - the T did not realize it was only hours earlier that my wife was also physically violent with me.  I did not want to get my wife into any further trouble than she was already in, so I kept quiet, as I was totally surprised that my wife was being reported for the incidents more than a decade old.  Retrospectively, I was protecting my wife from her physically abusive behaviors.  I had escalated it to the therapists, but I have yet to escalate it to 911/police.

However, the psychological abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, are countless, and by extrapolation I can safely say that this number is deep into the 10's of thousands once I logically realized that this was occuring to me over a year ago.  I did not think of it being abuse, as most of it was very subtle, and I didn't let it phase me emotionally as I had grown to accept these behaviors, at that time.  My individual T shared it with me, and several medically reviewed (by licensed professionals) websites have a vast array of articles on the topic, I predominately use verywellmind and psychologytoday as both have some really good articles on the subject - I'd say I  have been on the receiving end of well over 80% of the abuses described even though I do not feel abused that way except in the more extreme cases where I was repeatedly threatened with divorce, false allegations, DARVO, among others, at least a hundred but less than two hundred in total from an emotional perspective, when examined logically the number is in the tens of thousands, a couple orders of magnitude difference - I try not to keep count as 'love ... does not keep a record of wrongs' (1 Cor 13:5b) and I attend church regularly.  I have only kept count on physical violence real (5) or projected (2), and a hard count on the number of suicide attempts/gestures (6).  Everything else, I don't, even though I should have looking at it retrospectively if she were to have followed through on one of her dozens and dozens of divorce threats.

At the current time, I feel it is physically safe to be home with her, and if it isn't I can manage it with training and calling 911. 

I will touch upon if she recognizes what I consider abuse - the short answer is 'yes,' but at a very dysregulated level for some of the issues I called attention to.

About 11 months, ago, my wife wanted me to share everything that I perceived she has done wrong towards me...  At the  time I was working on introducing one new issue per week with her.  I was taken aback, as I didn't think she was capable of doing this; however, as she was asking, it was likely one of her homework assignments from her individual therapist as she had only recently started to apologize for things she had done to me and our children.  I worked with my therapist on this, and she recommended that I focus on a singular all encompassing phrase to which "all abuse must stop" was derived.  I was able to distill it into 7 distinct categories, 5 of which I knew she had addressed or was addressing, leaving only two areas where she needed to work on, the more subtle varieties along with the abuse of 'neglect', or not doing what a 'normal' person should do for the other within the institution of marriage.

I initially turned her question around, and asked her to first define any abuses I have done to her, so I can ask her for apologies and forgiveness in order to 'lead by example'.  She did, which leads into an answer to your next question... Yes, my wife has accused me of abusing her, emotionally and financially.  In contrast, I personally feel like it is comparing a nuclear weapon, to a stone being thrown.  She has accused me of being passive aggressive, making sarcastic comments, and says I cannot be trusted.

The passive aggressive parts, I used to appease her during her rages by agreeing to some ridiculous demand, under duress, just to get her to shut up, and then not do it is being abusive - guilty as charged.  In the present, I will not agree with her ridiculous demands, and tell her that we can talk about it tomorrow morning, after we 'both' have a chance to cool down - she normally resets emotionally to baseline after a sleep cycle.  By asking her to put a pause on it, doing a temporary stonewall of do not JADE for several hours to no more than 36 hours, this still pisses her off, but I am no longer accused of being abusive in this area.

Making sarcastic comments, I used to make some really smart ass remarks towards some of the very baffling things she accused me of, and then I would also, in retaliation, find something she did wrong, and shine a spotlight on her errors - this was predominately done in the form of reactive abuse, and occasionally out of frustration on my part in the form of 'needling' according to our couple's therapist - an older junk psychology term that can be more currently be described as 'death by a thousand paper cuts', another junk psychology term.  My reactive abuse in this form is the only one I still do, from time to time, after it was being pointed out to me.  It is so hard to stop something that is so ingrained in me.

I'd like to think I have incredible patience, before I retired, I was the leader at my organization, and had to be cool, calm, collected at all times - when dealing with a variety of situations ranging from science experiments, hosting diplomatic meetings, providing tours, to responding to a variety of incidents, many of which were under intense scrutiny of the media - and have been specifically trained with a variety of certificates, so I think I know how to handle myself better than most in high stress situations.  The only outlet for me, when dealing with my wife's behaviors, in private, was making sarcastic comments in a neutral tone of voice that would set her off in a retaliatory manner - this was before I knew about BPD.  I have since changed to doing a lot less, but occasionally, I still am accused of doing this, whenever I use BIFF - the only time I don't get accused of this, when I use the very long winded and inefficient SET communication.  If the "T" is in the SET communication is used, I still get accused of being abusive - now I am accused of talking like a politician instead - I am as I am deliberately not validating her invalid statements - these are all things I have learned with my own individual therapist, here on BPD Family, and reading many articles on the topic.  I have never raised my voice in anger towards her (I have yelled to get her attention on the other side of a ball field, or some other situation involving some distance).

She does not trust me...  here are a few examples...

She tells me to take our daughter to playdates at the library and do activities and the library with her   I take our D to the library, meet up with mothers of other children, grand moms, and a dad    After the library we all go to a local park with picnic lunches and watch the kids play, always as group activity, at no ones home - I shared this every time I did this with my wife and our daughter would talk about it   When my wife got upset with me on an unrelated topic, I get accused of "fu**ing all of the other moms" and I cannot be trusted because of her false allegation on this.  I had and maintained boundaries while I was doing exactly what my wife had instructed me to do with our daughter.  in response to these ludacris allegations, I took it upon myself to stop maintaining the friendships I had, first females, and then males - biggest mistake in my life, I have done to date, to allow myself to be manipulated in such a manner become isolated from friends.

On the topic of the first serious threat of divorce my wife made towards me, after I came back from a mission overseas.    Thinking my wife is serious, I start to take precautions by working overtime, and getting paid in cash, wife never sees it, and set aside enough for a divorce attorney retainer fee.  I did give her all of my pay stubs, and 'technically' did not hide this money from her; however, I did not call attention to it either   when my wife found out after a decade, after being asked, I admitted to it, and the reasoning for it    I was labelled financially abusive and could not be trusted since I hid money from her.  I can see her perspective on this, although this would never have occurred if she had not threatened divorce in the first place, while I did share my pay stubs, I did not call attention to this cash which amounted to substantially less than 1% of my income during that time frame.

She has told me who I can be friends with at church and who I cannot, she's very controlling even though she says she isn't, I did point this out to her and she changed her stance on it.  However, as I do not know when she will act irrationally in front of others, so I do keep my distance (still walking on eggshells, and I express this every opportunity in front of our couple's therapist).

Our then 1st grader son acts up at an elementary school assembly.     After our son cannot calm down, I escort him out of the school by his hand, which I was gripping just strong enough for him not to escape (the alternative was to put him over my shoulder in a fireman's carry), this was done in front of the principle and other school teachers, all mandated reporters.     I get accused repeatedly by my wife, I was intentionally hurting our son, and intentionally abusing him and threatened to report me for this.     I put an end to this, after realizing our couple's therapist is a former CPS LCSW, and let my wife share her story of this, told T all who was present, which my wife verified - and the T determined there was 'no issue'.  There are 3 other supposed incidents, 2 of which were in front of mandated reporters - a non issue for me; however, my wife does get carried away at exaggerating her truth and indicates, when she is triggered, I cannot be trusted when it is her trying to be manipulative by black mailing me from her perspective, but I know she if full of .  On the flip side, she then trusts me with our children, and their friends explicitly to take them across multiple state lines for some activities.  Her behaviors when she is triggered and not, it simply was mind boggling to me until I understood how the borderline mind works.

To address the mosaic score is about 14 months old, I should update it, but most of the answers will not change, except on the most recent behavior, and the outcome would be very similar.  My wife knows of her anger management issues, and is actively addressing them.  I have managed my behaviors of triggering her (walking on eggshells), where others are much more likely to trigger her than I am like in the most recent full blown borderline episode several weeks ago (used to be a few times per week).  The most recent incident was January 16, 2024, and the previous one was December 6, 2022 - I perceive no intentional immediate threat from physical violence.  If it were to occur, I will call 911, and I have been trained in self-defense to use the minimum force to neutralize a situation like I have done in each of her suicide gestures/attempts where I disarmed her of deadly weapons by grabbing them out of her hands (she offered no resistance).

In summary, with the 10's of thousands of things my wife does to me, somewhere between 100 and 200 incidents have actually triggered me enough to elicit a response on my part - averaging less than 10 per year, the rest do not even phase me emotionally since I have grown so accustomed to them with her, I only know that they are there since I observe them, and can logically process this behavior through the lens of a borderline.  For just about everything I use a variation on the 'radical acceptance' tool, which I call 'radical forgiveness' - I forgive her for her behaviors; however, I will hold her accountable, by bringing them up in a moderated forum of couples therapy, in order to help her become self-aware enough to stop or reduce them - this has been done with a lot of success in the past year; however, we still have a ways to go, so I press on...

[SaltyDawg]

Attraction is super complicated - it's contextual, circumstantial, experiential...  there is no formula. It's also highly individual.

EyesUp,

I agree it is complicated; however, several have offered up formulas that apparently work - wingman for example, and I see plenty of ads and self-help books on topics on how to attract a certain kind of person.  Even though I was unaware of the wingman at the time, my wife's ex-boss who is a mutual acquaintance/family friend hooked my wife and me up together - much like the wingman would do in wingman dating - so, I will gently disagree that there is 'no formula' on this 'slang' term for a dating formula.

A few basics tend to stand out - we are attracted to what's familiar, and also to what we perceive to be different than ourselves. Sometimes this occurs consciously, sometimes not.

This stuff devolves into cliche very quickly - it's the stuff of one-liners in rom-coms...  our partners eventually remind us of mom or dad, somehow - in some way.

Well, of course they do... we spend our formative time with our parents, and that experience has a disproportionate impact on how we perceive, well, everything. More than we generally know...

I agree 100% with you.  My wife has quipped on several occasions "I have married my dad"; likewise, I have also made the observation that several of my wife's baseline personality traits are very similar to my mother's. 

While my 'gut' feeling said there was something off, it did not become obvious to me until after we were married in the case of my wife, and my exgf prior, it was quite obvious from the day we first met in person.

I appreciate the impulse toward forensic analysis - and let's agree, analysis is often helpful, it's what many of us are here for.  That said...  it's very hard to achieve a crisp and conclusive understanding of most relationships, and I think it's fair to say that disordered relationships are even more difficult to, well, analyze.

 

I agree, you are preaching the choir, my goal is to understand why the disordered seem to actively seek me out.  I have some theories on this...

Freud implied that with some analysis, everything might appear in black and white on the page...  but if that was true, the science of relationships would be well established by now, and relationships would be a lot easier to understand at this point. There would be fewer therapists, psychologists, or psychiatrists in the world, and healthy relationships would be easier to form and maintain - because studying relationships would be more like geometry or calculus - repeatable, predictable, provable.

There is normal behavior, then there is disordered behavior.  I find normal behavior much harder to predict than disordered behavior now that I have studied it in my wife, and have observed it in others as well.  Borderline behavior is perhaps the most predictable behavior when in a relationship - this part I have for the most part have figured this out with my wife, and many other members here as they seem to use the same 'playbook'.  However, what I am trying to figure out is why they are so attracted to me, and seemingly actively seek me out, when I am deliberately unattractive, or don't feel attractive.

I am very much overweight, so that should not be a factor in attracting anyone.  However, I do project confidence, a strong sense of self, compassion, empathy, listening, caring, etc (the confidence is similar to someone who is NPD, yet very different in the other qualities) and that can be attractive to someone who is disordered.  I also live well in comparison to most, except celebrities, that too is attractive to just about anyone - so I generally dress down in somewhat humble clothing, drive a mini-van, exercise on an e-bike as I have a bad knee that I am nursing so it doesn't get worse, so I do wear very bright colors as I wish to be seen, from a safety standpoint while riding on roads.

Individually, we may be able to make some sense of our own choices.  Why did we start a given relationship?  Why did we remain in a given relationship?  What did we willingly overlook, or what did we miss entirely?  etc.

'Start' - An excessive level of interest was being shown to me, by another...  100% of my romantic relationships have started this way.

'Remain' - Predominately out of obligation to be nice to that person

'Overlook' - I overlook faults, bad habits, as no one is perfect. 

On the flip side, it's almost impossible to understand a disordered partner's motivation.  Is it specific to us (i.e., on some level we fit into the usual patterns of familiarity - or something different, exotic, exciting)?  Or more generalized (i.e., we were... available)?

That is what I am trying to figure out, the 'specific to us' reason why a disordered person finds me attractive, and seeks me out, in spite of me displaying a wedding band indicating I am unavailable. 

One occurance happened at an indoor water-park, where I was sitting at the bar, with a frozen drink in hand, watching people wipe out on the flo-rider (a stationary surfing wave powered by some very powerful water pumps) which can be quite comical at times.  A petite young woman rode this in a bikini (not recommended) and had a younger guy at least twice my size, at least a quarter ton in weight, video her on this ride who I thought might be her boyfriend.  After this guy left, she came over to me and made a pass, asked me out, I declined, then she immediately went over to another guy sitting on the other side of the bar, and did the same thing, he too declined - it was like she was on a hunt to hookup with someone.  While my wife was in the water park, she was not with me at the time of this incident.

On another occasion, I had a woman come up to me at my son's first football practice, in front of my wife - I was carrying my chair, my wife's chair, and a cooler of drinks.  She just started talking to me and being very flirty, a women whom I never met before, somewhat emotionally distraught, told me she was in her 40's but looked much younger in her 20's - I politely confirmed that she looked like she was in her twenties, but snubbed her by telling her "I have at least a decade on you, and I am in my mid 50's..." strongly implying I was not interested in her, but I did want to validate her as she appeared to me 'fishing for validation on her appearance'.  My wife didn't say anything, as she knew I had not met her before (we live in a small town), but wife's behavior changed for a couple of days where she was continuously by my side at level which I had only seen before during her love-bombing phase level of physical enmeshment (which was the first time since 2006, this was 2022)

A bit of dark humor, but I'm reminded of Richard Pryor's joke about the psychopath:  
Q: "why did you kill everyone in the house?"
A: "they were home"

The question presumes that there is a rational motive...  you know, the good police detective is seeking an actual explanation.  But the answer doesn't include a rational explanation.  What's rational to the psychopath isn't a valid explanation for a horrific crime.  And yet, to the psychopath, it is, nonetheless, an explanation.

There is 'truth' in that humor.  I have experienced that many times, albeit in a different manner.  The thing is that I want to understand the irrational explanation, and for the most part I can now, so I can better meet her needs.  However, I also want to understand this 'reasoning', so I know what to avoid, if my marriage ultimately fails.

I feel it's the same with a lot of BPD relationships... one partner is looking for compatibility - you know, mutual attraction, shared values, similar tastes and preferences...   the other partner is, on some level, disordered.  Intuitively, the disordered partner knows how to adopt the appearance of compatibility, but with a typically weak sense of self, doesn't truly have a strong feeling about a, b, c., but knows that a, b, c are probably necessary in order to have a relationship. The disordered partner attempts to "fake it until you make it" - which, to the non-disordered partner, seems incredible, amazing:  we like the same music! the same food! insatiable libido!  etc...

I understand that part too right now, how love bombing works, it is intuitive for them, especially if they are incredibly intelligent.  It had me fooled, as we matched 3001/3003 questions, a number that I now know is impossible to match, but it happened.

And there's the attraction:
- one partner thinks things are lining up well organically
- the partner is working hard to make sure line things up well, but on some very basic level this effort is artificial - it's not sincere, authentic, organic - and this partner may not even be aware that what they are doing is misleading.

Eventually, over time - weeks, months, years... the fundamental misalignments become apparent in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.  At which point it's become very difficult to make sense of the misalignments - for either partner.

With the exgf it was obvious; however with my wife, it felt sincere, authentic, and they were not intentionally misleading - I liked to think of myself as a good judge of character, boy was I fooled.  I also knew it was 'too good to be true', and I did everything I could to poke holes in my gut, and I couldn't.  That's what makes it so painful to me. 

So - Does anyone "attract crazy?" - I think it's possible, but it's also probable that some of us - for a variety of reasons - merely accept crazy.  i.e., we find ourselves in disordered relationships for all the reasons covered at this site, and elsewhere:  At a particular moment, we are vulnerable, susceptible, and available.

I think I attract disordered people.  I don't readily accept crazy behavior, I pushback on it (until I was beaten down by the former couple's therapist without an individual therapist to understand what was happening), as I am communicating this to my wife, to her therapist, and to our couple's therapist.  I am not accepting crazy, but for the benefit of our children, I am only tolerating crazy, as long as crazy is getting better, while enacting firm boundaries and methodologies to counteract her behaviours in order to reverse the emotional damage to our children - so far there have been good results.

With my wife's individual therapist, my wife is mostly on target where it comes to our children as well, almost to the point of not being disordered (it has been described as a 'miracle' by others at the NAMI meeting I attend).  It may be a miracle, but she didn't get there without a lot of hard work on herself, a lot of intentionally manipulating nudging on my part (once I educated myself on what was really happening, which took my first individual therapist to identify) to have my wife become self-aware, so she can do the right thing, as I believe in her heart of hearts, her intentions are genuine, sincere, and authentic.

Ultimately, we can only control ourselves.

True, but we can suggest, persuade, nudge, push, manipulate, to the point where we can only hope that they take the path of least resistance - hard work on themselves or the alternative to leave the relationship - I would have preferred the latter as that would have been far easier; however, she is doing the former which is not what normally happens here - she is definitely the exception, rather than the rule.

I am asking this question, in case the latter happens, we do split up, as I do not like repeating my mistakes.  So, I want to understand why crazy people are attracted to me, in spite of deliberately making myself not available, so I do not fall for the next when I have a moment of vulnerability.  This question is part of "planning for the worst" while "praying/hoping for the best", so I have a better understanding of what the **** is going on here.

On some level, we're here because we didn't "listen to our gut" or "our picker wasn't calibrated" or we were effectively "love bombed" and didn't spot the "red flags" - etc.

Is that "attracting crazy" or is that merely accepting it, at a particular moment in time?

No, I think that is 'staying with crazy,' which is a lot harder to stop once you have become ?trauma? bonded with love bombing.  I want to have a 'calibrated picker', recognize love bombing as soon as it starts, and I have learned a very important lesson on listening to my 'gut' - but also not to prematurely jump to conclusions based on a very limited set of flags which is what I had done before.  I think I have, for the most part.  But I want to make sure I am not missing anything.  Before 2022, I knew nothing of BPD and other cluster B, except sociopath (ASPD), and there are similarities in personality traits there too.

So, can you possibly expand on talking about not doing enough when it comes to flags?  I seem to give the benefit of doubt when it comes to this, as I see mostly yellow flags not necessarily attributable to any kind of PD, not red ones which are either attributable to PD's or are so against my moral compass that I cannot tolerate those kinds of behaviors.

Opinions? 

[Notwendy]

'Start' - An excessive level of interest was being shown to me, by another...  100% of my romantic relationships have started this way.

'Remain' - Predominately out of obligation to be nice to that person

'Overlook' - I overlook faults, bad habits, as no one is perfect. 


That is what I am trying to figure out, the 'specific to us' reason why a disordered person finds me attractive, and seeks me out, in spite of me displaying a wedding band indicating I am unavailable. 

One occurance happened at an indoor water-park, where I was sitting at the bar, with a frozen drink in hand, watching people wipe out on the flo-rider (a stationary surfing wave powered by some very powerful water pumps) which can be quite comical at times.  A petite young woman rode this in a bikini (not recommended) and had a younger guy at least twice my size, at least a quarter ton in weight, video her on this ride who I thought might be her boyfriend.  After this guy left, she came over to me and made a pass, asked me out, I declined, then she immediately went over to another guy sitting on the other side of the bar, and did the same thing, he too declined - it was like she was on a hunt to hookup with someone.  While my wife was in the water park, she was not with me at the time of this incident.

On another occasion, I had a woman come up to me at my son's first football practice, in front of my wife - I was carrying my chair, my wife's chair, and a cooler of drinks.  She just started talking to me and being very flirty.

Opinions? 

I have read several books on BPD over time and while I am not in the dating pool, if there are chapters on dating- I read them as part of the book.

One idea that I found interesting is about boundaries. Boundaries can be too weak or too strong and if people's boundaries are disordered, they may have some of each. Someone who is too defensive can still end up in a disordered relationship but why?

A sense of boundaries is somewhat unconscious too. If someone has emotionally healthy boundaries and senses that someone has strong boundaries, they will stay away but someone who doesn't respect boundaries will not- they will go there anyway since they don't respect boundaries and so, if boundaries are too strong- people who respect them will stay away and only "crazy" will go through.

It may be as if you sitting at the pool, with your wedding ring on, may have a fiter effect. Women who have boundaries wouldn't think of approaching you. However, this woman who did, doesn't respect that boundary. So it may not be that you attract "crazy" but that only "crazy" approaches you.

I have a friend from childhood who people are attracted to. He has a some of the qualities you describe- empathetic, caring. Physically, he's overweight and has a pleasant appearance but there's more to why people are attracted to him and it's hard to pin point exactly what that is. His personality is a part of it. It may also be that due to his physique, he's more approachable than if he was built like a movie star. People might feel he's just like them rather than out of reach. He is married to a lovely wife and so, probably for other reasons, didn't end up in a disordered relationship but probably did attract crazy and not crazy.

So, one idea is that- you are a friendly, nice and approachable guy. People may be generally attracted to you. However with that wedding band on- people who respect boundaries won't approach you and only people who don't respect them do. So you have filtered "not crazy" out and only "crazy" remains?

I also wonder about picking up on subtle signals. Could it be that some people tend to be less socially savvy than their BPD partners? My father was a social person but also was the "brainy" type while my BPD mother was the pretty popular girl whose social skills are sharp. It may be that "crazy" at the pool did pick you over someone else who can "read" her signals and is putting out different ones. 

[EyesUp]

@SD,

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed comments.  

Some things come to mind:

I will gently disagree that there is 'no formula' on this 'slang' term for a dating formula.

Can you direct us to the formula? I know that there are many generalizations, frameworks, theories, and studies - some more clinical and with more validation than others - however I'm not aware of a proven formula. Certainly not a proven universal formula.

While my 'gut' feeling said there was something off, it did not become obvious to me until after we were married in the case of my wife, and my exgf prior, it was quite obvious from the day we first met in person.

This seems to happen to a lot of us. And by "us" I mean almost everyone... even people in relationships where no PD is present. At some point, we realize that we married one of our parents.

'Start' - An excessive level of interest was being shown to me, by another...  100% of my romantic relationships have started this way.

It sounds like in your major relationships, you have responded to women who have taken initiative. This isn't an unusual thing, is it?  The premise of some dating apps is that women make the first move. It's not universal, but it is an established archetype. So maybe you simply fall in this archetype? In fact, in 100% of relationships, someone had to make the first move. If you're working to better your marriage, understanding your preferences and attitudes as well as your wife's might be helpful, i.e., who takes initiative - and for what...  might be helpful. If your marriage ended and you were inclined to seek a new relationship, what would you do differently? Would you make the first move? Do you feel that this is a critical action, for you? If so, why?

Waterpark... "it was like she was on a hunt to hookup with someone"
It sounds like you answered your own question.  She wasn't on the hunt for you. She was on the hunt for someone.  Like the R. Pryor example:  You were there.  It wasn't you - it was her.  If you weren't there, it would have been someone else.

On another occasion, I had a woman come up to me at my son's first football practice, in front of my wife

SD, the situation you describe happens all. the. time. Some people are extroverted. Some people are extra-extroverted. Some people use social settings like school football games to behave as if there is already some common interest - not necessarily romantic. This happens at concerts, conferences, events of all kinds where the event itself establishes some shared experience - some people go to watch their kid, other people are less interested in the game, and want to connect, make friends, find customers, evangelize, or maybe find a new romantic partner. I'm on the PTO at my kid's school - one of the few dads - there are a lot of moms who like to chat. I don't assume that means they are interested in me in any way outside of the PTO.

I'm not following how these two experiences are unique to you, SD.  What am I missing?  Can you elaborate?

However, I also want to understand this 'reasoning', so I know what to avoid, if my marriage ultimately fails.

Yup, that's the million-dollar question that brings a lot of us here. I know you've seen this here many times, and I bet if I go back and read your posts - you've probably said it, too:  You can only know your own mind. You can only control yourself.  

Cutting to the chase: What does this mean for your marriage or for potential future relationships?  It means that we need to take responsibility and accept or not accept a, b, c, consistent with our personal values and preferences.

So, I want to understand why crazy people are attracted to me, in spite of deliberately making myself not available, so I do not fall for the next when I have a moment of vulnerability.  This question is part of "planning for the worst" while "praying/hoping for the best", so I have a better understanding of what the **** is going on here.

In my case, I never cracked that nut. I got to a point where I accepted that divorce was necessary and now my pwBPD is my uBPDxw.  I generally don't dwell on how I got here, however I accept that I am here, and I mainly try to look forward.  I think our Ts would tell us that it's hard to look back and move forward at the same time.

So, can you possibly expand on talking about not doing enough when it comes to flags?  I seem to give the benefit of doubt when it comes to this, as I see mostly yellow flags not necessarily attributable to any kind of PD, not red ones which are either attributable to PD's or are so against my moral compass that I cannot tolerate those kinds of behaviors.

If there was a guidebook that said to treat yellow flags as red flags, would that be helpful?

Taking it back to the top, there are frameworks and guidelines and theories.  Yet we are all individuals with our unique histories and perceptions.  Even if you find a book with strict definitions of "yellow" and "red" flags, it's not going to apply 100% of the time.  People are not like assembly lines - we don't have operational procedure manuals.  We don't have a high degree of consistency built in.  In fact, most people love surprises - that's why we watch dramas and thrillers, and why we generally appreciate an unexpected punchline.  

As you said, we might need to politely agree to disagree on some things.

Do I think that you can better understand your own choices and role in relationships?  100% yes.

Do I think that you can establish ground truth for another person's choices? No.

That said, I think that you can allow yourself to recognize and either accept or not accept someone else's behavior, and how you want to respond or not respond to it.

The funny (well, sometimes not so funny) aspect of this is:  It's the great existential dilemma we all face, with or without PDs in our relationships:  What is truth?

Some people conclude that the only way to avoid repeating past mistakes to avoid relationships entirely.  That seems a bit like binary thinking to me - black and white.  On one hand, it's hard to argue against it:  Can't have a bad relationship if you're not in a relationship.  On the other hand, we cannot completely eliminate uncertainty in all areas of our lives...

Hope this discussion is helpful in some way...  

[Skip]

No, I think that is 'staying with crazy,' which is a lot harder to stop once you have become ?trauma? bonded with love bombing.  I want to have a 'calibrated picker', recognize love bombing as soon as it starts, and I have learned a very important lesson on listening to my 'gut' - but also not to prematurely jump to conclusions based on a very limited set of flags which is what I had done before.  I think I have, for the most part.  But I want to make sure I am not missing anything.  Before 2022, I knew nothing of BPD and other cluster B, except sociopath (ASPD), and there are similarities in personality traits there too.

Dawg,

The general public knew very little about mental illnesses 20 years ago and that was to many's peril. Today, however, the pendulum has swung very far to the right and now its commonplace to label any difficult person as a having a mental illness/personality disorder and to look at any difficult relationship transaction as abuse.

Is this extreme shift healthy for us? Is it helpful to finding a better life?

I suggest that we are best served to stay centered in our assessment of our life and the world around us and to analyze things from that balanced perspective.

So in that vein, how would you describe your relationship with your wife for the last year and how would you characterize how you have treated each other (both good and bad)?

I read and understand the thoughts that she has been abusive "10 of thousands of times" in the last 15 years and that you contacted a domestic abuse shelter, and the you present with an 8/10 (high risk) for domestic violence. You also said you feel no risk or danger and things are progressing... and you have stayed married for a long time.

I'm purposely asking you to shorten the time window and to characterize the good and bad in a balanced way.

Skip

PS: I know you are asking dating questions... we can split the thread if you like.

[Pook075]

Just to chime in on the dating- I started meeting women online on an international Christian dating site maybe 7 months ago.  The first few revealed BPD traits within a few weeks of conversations and video calls.  Then one I really liked at first turned out to be the worst of them all; highly unstable and would lash out over the most trivial things.  If she called and I didn't answer, it was because I must have been having sex with another woman at that particular moment.

I wondered the same thing- am I just attracted to crazy?  Again, this was a "Christian" dating site and I couldn't understand why this kept happening.

Then I met my current girlfriend, who's open and honest and holds me accountable in productive ways.  Daily I am amazed by how loving and caring she is; not with love bombing, but simply with kindness and compassion.  When one of us messes up, we own it and move on...it's the most bizarre thing in the world because it's the opposite of what I'm used to.  Not once has she brought up something from our past to seek revenge in an argument.

I think every single one of us has some levels of "crazy", so if we look for it then it won't be too hard to find.  I will say though that using the affirmation techniques we learn while studying BPD, it makes for an amazing relationship.  These are life lessons we're picking up here that apply to just about anything.

[SaltyDawg]

I have read several books on BPD over time and while I am not in the dating pool, if there are chapters on dating- I read them as part of the book.

One idea that I found interesting is about boundaries. Boundaries can be too weak or too strong and if people's boundaries are disordered, they may have some of each. Someone who is too defensive can still end up in a disordered relationship but why?

A sense of boundaries is somewhat unconscious too. If someone has emotionally healthy boundaries and senses that someone has strong boundaries, they will stay away but someone who doesn't respect boundaries will not- they will go there anyway since they don't respect boundaries and so, if boundaries are too strong- people who respect them will stay away and only "crazy" will go through.

It may be as if you sitting at the pool, with your wedding ring on, may have a fiter effect. Women who have boundaries wouldn't think of approaching you. However, this woman who did, doesn't respect that boundary. So it may not be that you attract "crazy" but that only "crazy" approaches you.

So, one idea is that- you are a friendly, nice and approachable guy. People may be generally attracted to you. However with that wedding band on- people who respect boundaries won't approach you and only people who don't respect them do. So you have filtered "not crazy" out and only "crazy" remains?

I am not in the dating pool either, at least while I am separated/divorced from my BPDw which should not happen unless my wife changes her mind, or stops seeking meaningful therapy for her own issues.

Boundaries - previously, being faithful, was one of my few healthy boundaries.  Anything not really specified in law, rules, or doctrine - I had no boundaries, so I tolerated/accepted things a normal person would not find acceptable with regards to affection or lack thereof from the three intimate partners I've had (sequentially, not concurrently) in the past 35 years, two of which shown symptoms of being BPD.

I do like your reframe of 'only "crazy" approaches" me especially in light of where the 'wedding band' would 'filter' out those with healthy, leaving only 'crazy' not necessarily BPD.  I think that observations are an accurate assessment for me, even though I do find that synonymous with attracting "crazy".
 

I also wonder about picking up on subtle signals. Could it be that some people tend to be less socially savvy than their BPD partners? My father was a social person but also was the "brainy" type while my BPD mother was the pretty popular girl whose social skills are sharp. It may be that "crazy" at the pool did pick you over someone else who can "read" her signals and is putting out different ones.

Before I knew about BPD, I probably missed many 'subtle' signals.  Now, that I have studied it for the past 20 months after I have learned about it, these 'subtle' signals, are no longer 'subtle' to me.  I have seen no less than 3 different posts listing hundreds of red flags - many of which are not specific to BPD; however, when grouped together, indicates that something is wrong emotionally, not necessarily BPD - somewhere on the 'not right' spectrum, which I neutrally refer to as 'crazy'. 

Of the dozen I've had approaching me in the past two years, two actually confirmed that they were BPD, one I asked, and the other volunteered the information.  Four of them, could have been considered normal; however, something felt very 'off' when I interacted with them - kind of like a 6th sense that I have developed in my 'gut' feeling.

When I first started to date my wife, my wife often commented on how I could make friends anywhere and was well liked.  However, after getting married, and the very wild allegations of "f**king the other moms" at out daughter's playdate in the park and other crazy-making behaviors in front of my friends - I thought I was being supportive of my wife, which only served to isolate me from my friends, both men and women - biggest mistake in my life I ever did.  It is crazy how I went from an extrovert to an introvert only while in the presence of my wife - another topic to do a deep dive on with my T.  Logically, I am still likely an extrovert, as I seem to attract more than my fair share of people who talk to me, and I them.

Thanks for listening, and I do enjoy your insight on my issue, along with your insights as a daughter to a borderline mother which allows me to have additional empathy and understanding what my own daughter is going through.

Take care.

SD

[Notwendy]

Thanks SD- It helps me to understand my father better from reading about the men in relationships and like you and several others here, he was a responsible and caring person.

A wedding ring is a big boundary so it makes sense to wonder about anyone who would approach you with one on.

[SaltyDawg]

I will gently disagree that there is 'no formula' on this 'slang' term for a dating formula.

Can you direct us to the formula? I know that there are many generalizations, frameworks, theories, and studies - some more clinical and with more validation than others - however I'm not aware of a proven formula. Certainly not a proven universal formula.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingman_(social) is the one that comes to mind.  I have read a very misogynistic ebook on it a number of years ago, ironically it targets women with a high degree of impulsivity -  cluster-B traits (HPD & BPD) - the name of the book escapes me, nor would I post it here as it as it is a bit too predatory in nature and exploits the psychological weaknesses of these individuals.

In case you are wondering why I was reading this, my wife had recently gone from hypersexuality to hyposexuality, and I was reading on how to reverse this, this was about a decade ago when I read this book and others like it on the topic.

And by "us" I mean almost everyone... even people in relationships where no PD is present. At some point, we realize that we married one of our parents.

I agree with statement; however, my mother had a lot of OCPD traits, so my wife does too; however, this does not explain the BPD part of it, which is the common thread between my current partner (BPD/OCPD wife), or my previous partner (BPD/NPD exgf).

'Start' - An excessive level of interest was being shown to me, by another...  100% of my romantic relationships have started this way.

It sounds like in your major relationships, you have responded to women who have taken initiative. This isn't an unusual thing, is it?  The premise of some dating apps is that women make the first move. It's not universal, but it is an established archetype. So maybe you simply fall in this archetype? In fact, in 100% of relationships, someone had to make the first move.

I will readily admit, I enjoy being seduced.  I would say that I fall into this 'archetype' as you have postulated.

If you're working to better your marriage, understanding your preferences and attitudes as well as your wife's might be helpful, i.e., who takes initiative - and for what...  might be helpful. If your marriage ended and you were inclined to seek a new relationship, what would you do differently? Would you make the first move? Do you feel that this is a critical action, for you? If so, why?

I am working to better my marriage, but I am also making contingency plans where it might fail.  I want to understand why I attract a certain type of woman, and not the emotionally healthier ones. 

One time in high school, I did ask a girl to the senior prom.  It took her 5 days to very thoughtfully and politely decline my invite - I didn't think anything of it as I knew it was a 'long shot' for her to accept - I wasn't into romance then.  She was very sweet, and I really didn't know her that well, even though I shared a class with her brother.

Waterpark... "it was like she was on a hunt to hookup with someone"
It sounds like you answered your own question.  She wasn't on the hunt for you. She was on the hunt for someone.  Like the R. Pryor example:  You were there.  It wasn't you - it was her.  If you weren't there, it would have been someone else.

That part really doesn't bother me so much, but I was at the bar with my SIL, and she waited for her to leave, before approaching me.

On another occasion, I had a woman come up to me at my son's first football practice, in front of my wife

SD, the situation you describe happens all. the. time. Some people are extroverted. Some people are extra-extroverted. Some people use social settings like school football games to behave as if there is already some common interest - not necessarily romantic. This happens at concerts, conferences, events of all kinds where the event itself establishes some shared experience - some people go to watch their kid, other people are less interested in the game, and want to connect, make friends, find customers, evangelize, or maybe find a new romantic partner. I'm on the PTO at my kid's school - one of the few dads - there are a lot of moms who like to chat. I don't assume that means they are interested in me in any way outside of the PTO.

I'm not following how these two experiences are unique to you, SD.  What am I missing?  Can you elaborate?

I am going to push back on that assessment a bit, and I will elaborate.  Normally I would say you are correct, people come up to me all the time and talk at these kinds of events.  However, in this instance, it was in front of my wife, and my wife was visibly uncomfortable with the level of flirting this complete stranger, who was very physically attractive, was doing towards me.  It was out of the blue and totally unexpected, and this other woman, I could tell was emotionally distraught (body language), from what I don't know, so I didn't want to reject her outright, so I had to tactfully validate her concern of her looks and attractiveness (as she was focused on appearing like a 20-something when she was a 40-something) as I didn't want to destroy her self-worth/esteem as I knew she was going through some kind emotional turmoil, and I didn't want to make it worse for her, but I also rejected her advance on me in a manner that my wife could appreciate and not feel jealous.

I must admit, on a primal emotional level it does feel good having having some very physically attractive women find me interesting; however, logically, I know there is something amiss - from my 'gut' feeling on this interaction which I now find repulsive, but wouldn't have prior to knowing about BPD and other mental health issues that these women might have.

However, I also want to understand this 'reasoning', so I know what to avoid, if my marriage ultimately fails.

Yup, that's the million-dollar question that brings a lot of us here. I know you've seen this here many times, and I bet if I go back and read your posts - you've probably said it, too:  You can only know your own mind. You can only control yourself.

Follow my gut - I call it a 'slang' term of CRAYDAR - Crazy RADAR, very similar to what the LGBTQ+ community calls GAYDAR where they can find like-minded individuals.  I am just looking to improve my 'picker' or whatever term one wants to use.

Cutting to the chase: What does this mean for your marriage or for potential future relationships?  It means that we need to take responsibility and accept or not accept a, b, c, consistent with our personal values and preferences.

That's to my question - I want to refine what I can and cannot accept with my own personal value and preferences.  I also want to project what I am looking for, and have a better ability to see past the initial mask of a relationship prior to becoming fully invested (fall hard for...) in a particular person.  I was able to avoid the BPD/NPDexgf, as I recognized her modus operandi straight away; whereas, I didn't with my wife, initially, and by the time she did exhibit really big red flags with her first manipulative suicide attempt - my wife pivoted and shifted back to full blown love bombing, as I expressed that she 'baited and switched on me' and I alluded to having 2nd thoughts on the marriage.  It wasn't until we became pregnant with our first child, and then and only then did her mask fully come off to reveal the true nature of her personality.

So, I want to understand why crazy people are attracted to me, in spite of deliberately making myself not available, so I do not fall for the next when I have a moment of vulnerability.  This question is part of "planning for the worst" while "praying/hoping for the best", so I have a better understanding of what the **** is going on here.

In my case, I never cracked that nut. I got to a point where I accepted that divorce was necessary and now my pwBPD is my uBPDxw.  I generally don't dwell on how I got here, however I accept that I am here, and I mainly try to look forward.  I think our Ts would tell us that it's hard to look back and move forward at the same time.

My wife knows she is messed up in the head, and is actively making significant improvements, thinks it is enough, and I am pushing back that it isn't.  I am unsure if she has the 'will' to put her outward BPD symptoms into full remission like our daughter has done with an similarly difficult mental illness.  I know she has the capability of doing so.

So, can you possibly expand on talking about not doing enough when it comes to flags?  I seem to give the benefit of doubt when it comes to this, as I see mostly yellow flags not necessarily attributable to any kind of PD, not red ones which are either attributable to PD's or are so against my moral compass that I cannot tolerate those kinds of behaviors.

If there was a guidebook that said to treat yellow flags as red flags, would that be helpful?

No, it wouldn't be.   If I followed that advice, I would be a hermit.  Everyone has yellow flags, myself included.  A for one person might be a for another, and a green one for someone else.  It is a matter of perspective. 

That said, I think that you can allow yourself to recognize and either accept or not accept someone else's behavior, and how you want to respond or not respond to it.

In the honeymoon phase or love bombing phase when your person of interest in on 'best behavior', very similar starts but different outcomes - how does one detect the difference between the two?  I feel as though I was fooled/duped by the best of the best, I was following my 'gut' and still could not see I was being fooled by my wife, until it was too late.

Some people conclude that the only way to avoid repeating past mistakes to avoid relationships entirely.  That seems a bit like binary thinking to me - black and white.  On one hand, it's hard to argue against it:  Can't have a bad relationship if you're not in a relationship.  On the other hand, we cannot completely eliminate uncertainty in all areas of our lives...

I can see that perspective, but that is not me.  I do want to be in a 'healthy' relationship without being duped initially until the mask came off some years later.  I understand that most will reveal their true nature much sooner than mine did - I was counting on this, and it didn't happen, and when it did happen, it seemed like a bad dream where I was too emotionally invested to see straight especially as it immediately returned with the mask going on, it wasn't until 5 years and 2 months after we started dating where the mask fully came off, well in excess of the 2 year textbook maximum, and most would show their true colors within the first year, that I read about way back in 2001.

Hope this discussion is helpful in some way...

 

Yes, it is helpful, and if you have any more insight, it would be appreciated.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

If your marriage ended and you were inclined to seek a new relationship, what would you do differently? Would you make the first move? Do you feel that this is a critical action, for you? If so, why?

After reading what I had posted, I realized I did not answer these questions - as I am still not thinking along these lines in earnest, yet.

Differently - I would likely utilize a dating app, they weren't really around at the turn of the century/millennium when I was last in the dating pool.  Prior to using, I would do my research before selecting a specific platform to figure out which of these 'tools' would best suit my personal needs.  It really doesn't matter who makes the first move and is not a critical action for me as anyone who is using one of these platforms is mutually making the first move on the other.

I did meet the BPD/NPDexgf online via IRC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC) in 1998; however, my BPD/OCPD wife was a setup from a mutual friend/acquaintance - very much like the 'wingman' approach I alluded to in my previous post which I did not know about yet.  I have had an acquaintance back in 1986 (not a typo, that is eighty-six, on a platform similar to IRC but predates it) who met and married his wife back then on the ARPAnet (the predecessor to the Internet), it was a resounding success - I know of success stories both on and off the net, so I have no specific affinity for either.

Knowing what I know now, I will likely look at their older social media postings, do a background search, among a few other precautions because at my age, one would have to wonder why they are in the dating pool, and take it slowly, and keep my eyes open for any red-flags, and monitor the yellow-flags closely.

[Pook075]

Differently - I would likely utilize a dating app, they weren't really around at the turn of the century/millennium when I was last in the dating pool.  Prior to using, I would do my research before selecting a specific platform to figure out which of these 'tools' would best suit my personal needs. 

I was excited to join the online dating revolution and I was sorely disappointed. 

At 50, those apps weren't made for my age group.  The singles I met in the 40-50 range fell into two categories- the partying/casual sex crowd, and the extreme emotional baggage crowd.  Some were actually comedy gold where they'd list everything they hated about men and wouldn't tolerate...it was a surreal experience.

My advice- stay married!

[EyesUp]

@Salty,

Thanks for your response.  That said, please accept my apologies - My question wasn't really clear.  I meant to ask "what would you do differently to make sure you don't pick another disordered partner?" - but I think the question came across as "how would you find a new partner?"

I didn't intend to go down the path of how to start dating or where to find a date - I feel like I've unintentionally launched a tangent.  Again, my apologies.

Perhaps you answered anyway - I hear you re: background checks and related diligence. That said, some people have private profiles or simply don't participate in social media. 

In that case, can you think of anything else?  What are some other ways to establish rapport, trust, and ultimately conviction that there's a good match and a real connection, based on mutual understanding and appreciation? 

Based on everything you've learned about BPD, what can be done to avoid getting into another BPD relationship?  I realize that we're in "detaching" so just want to say: if your goal isn't necessarily to detach, please don't feel obligated to respond.

[SinisterComplex]

I was excited to join the online dating revolution and I was sorely disappointed. 

At 50, those apps weren't made for my age group.  The singles I met in the 40-50 range fell into two categories- the partying/casual sex crowd, and the extreme emotional baggage crowd.  Some were actually comedy gold where they'd list everything they hated about men and wouldn't tolerate...it was a surreal experience.

My advice- stay married!

I would provide a disclaimer here...stay married if you are happy. Always choose what makes YOU happy. Marriage is not for everyone. I am a happily divorced man for example and the thought of being married again actually makes me cringe...I love freedom and marriage is like a cage to me. I don't necessarily seek out a partner, but if the right one comes along I'm open to it, but it is not a priority for me. Too many things to do in this world, too many goals to shoot for and not enough time to check off all the boxes. In truth I prefer profound friendships...more fulfilling. 

However, I can also agree that the dating scene is a total S Show, but it all depends on what you make of it at the same time and what your goals, expectations are, etc.

The internet dating thing...its a crap shoot of course, but no different than the real physical world. I am also the type though that if I am interested in someone it will probably be something that happened organically in person and there is a mutual interest and conversation goes from there because I'm quite nonchalant in that regard...I am happy with someone or without someone, it doesn't really make difference to me because I have some very good friends and lots of interests so I am never lacking or bored. Romantic relationships are not the end all be all. I've had plenty and honestly I've never been happier than being single and doing my own thing. So much less BS to put up with and so much more time to get things done and do the things I want to do.

Now granted, I am a different kind of cat and I do not necessarily fit in with the majority, but felt I would provide a different perspective here. I just say do what is in your best interests, what makes you happy and allows you to feel fulfilled. That is the beauty of life...we all have the power to choose and free will.   

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[SaltyDawg]

Skip,

   You have come up with some really good questions... I will try and answer from my individual perspective...

Dawg,

The general public knew very little about mental illnesses 20 years ago and that was to many's peril. Today, however, the pendulum has swung very far to the right and now its commonplace to label any difficult person as a having a mental illness/personality disorder and to look at any difficult relationship transaction as abuse.

I was exposed in the 1990's with an exgf who through retroactive personal analysis I believe was both NPD and BPD with other issues going on as well, that I will not label.  I had met her online in an IRC chat room, and my previous exposure to a match like this was extremely positive, as mentioned in my previous post.  After I left her after dating her briefly, she got in trouble with the law after she couldn't pay her bills due to her impulsive spending, and they found a lot more than missing money, she was front page news on a regional scale for the abuses she did, at least 57 counts of charges.

With my wife, she had repeated suicide gestures/attempts, that I found to be very coercive or manipulative in nature - I  had no clue as to mental health issues as the only one I had been formally trained in was Stockholm syndrome, and that was within the context of a ship hijacking so I would know how to respond in a hostage scenario.

I agree it is way too easy to label any difficult relationship issue as abuse or is abusive.  I feel that one needs to fully understand, at a minimum what the law defines as abuse, and ideally at a level a licensed professional understands - rather than what pop culture indicates as abuse.  If one partner hits, kicks, punches, bites, etc. the law clearly defines this as physical abuse (domestic violence) - there is no room for misinterpretation for physical abuse as it is codified into law.  Also, my wife was reported by a mandated reporter, our former couple's therapist, for this kind of behavior, I had no idea that this would happen, neither did she.

If one is subjected to coercion, blackmail, duress, threats, slander, defamation, libel, etc. these too are codified in law and are considered illegal, these too leave very little doubt if the person on the receiving end is being abused.

Likewise being on the receiving end of a rage, that involves yelling, threats of harm, etc.  While not clear-cut as physical abuse or other codified illegal behaviors, most would consider this to be abusive in nature too.

However, it is the more grey terms, like gaslighting, DARVO, needling, sarcasm, etc. where one says they are joking, when in fact they are not - the intent of the said 'joke' needs to be determined before it can be labelled as abusive, especially as a lot of comedians use these tools in their comedy routines.

Circling back to your comment of swinging too far to the right -- having been in a profession that was under-regulated to one being over-regulated, I would definitely say the over-regulated one is far more preferable to the environment and safety of the workers - there is no doubt in my mind this has been an overall benefit to everyone even if it means a lot more paperwork is involved. 

Using a similar mindset, I also feel that the school children learning about mental health, specifically bullying is a huge benefit to children, along with being educated on potentially abusive behaviors at home, like sexual abuse.  While this can be abused by the children, I feel that society has benefited greatly from this kind of education for our children, even if 988 is swamped with 80% of all of the calls/texts are received from children calling the crisis line.

I feel the benefits of having too much information far outweigh the inconvenience of having too much information.

Is this extreme shift healthy for us?

I feel that this shift is mostly healthy for society, as it shines a well deserved light on abuse that was previously hidden and the consequences to this ignorance can be extreme.  In my personal extended family dynamic this includes a serial killer where one of my SIL's paid with her life for her ignorance in this matter.  Had she known more about his past, and his abusive behavior (which both my wife and I witnessed first hand on one occasion), it could have saved her life.  Hindsight is always 20/20.

Having a individual licensed therapist/psychologist clue me in to BPD, I too feel it has become a much healthier family dynamic for my wife, who is on a road to recovery, my daughter who has recovered, my son who no longer fears his mother and is more like a healthy kid.

Is it helpful to finding a better life?

Most definitely for my children, and for my wife too - the level of abuse has been greatly reduced - not quite at remission levels, yet, as it is still a work in progress.  The amount of violence and yelling has substantially dropped in my home to manageable levels.  It is getting better, but it is far from ideal, but we are a whole lot closer to the ideal than we were a year ago, but we still have a long ways to go - we are about half way there, give or take.  As far as I know, there is no 'perfect' family; however, it is a goal to strive for.

I suggest that we are best served to stay centered in our assessment of our life and the world around us and to analyze things from that balanced perspective.

Speaking of assessments, the SWOE book (3rd edition) has an excellent assessment tool in it, my wife scored very high in it, low 20's.  I did a deep dive with the PhD-T, and the one who trained him too.  Even though each of them had not assessed my wife, and were extremely hesitant, they questioned me extensively on why I was thinking BPD, and they eventually agreed with my assessment based on circumstantial evidence.

I agree, the best way is to stay centered, I feel is to read and UNDERSTAND the DSM 5 / IDC 10 that lists the specific symptoms and how they apply to one's unique situation and the different ways on how each symptom presents to a specific individual.

So in that vein, how would you describe your relationship with your wife for the last year and how would you characterize how you have treated each other (both good and bad)?

Improving dramatically from an abuse perspective, but we are not there yet.  Her and our relationship with the children have dramatically improved too.  From a romantic perspective, not much progress here, as I have been focused on the safety of our children and my own safety as I am the one steering the recovery effort and I am the target of blame.  Currently in progress to expand the focus to the relationship as well after several non-starter attempts, and so far there has been some, but limited improvement - I need more of a buy in from my wife on this - so the couple's therapy continues. 

I had some reactive abuse, that was identified by the couple's therapist, and I have corrected those.  Likewise, my wife has made apologies for most of her past abuses, except neglect which is very vague, and is the hardest abuse to identify and rectify.

I read and understand the thoughts that she has been abusive "10 of thousands of times" in the last 15 years and that you contacted a domestic abuse shelter, and the you present with an 8/10 (high risk) for domestic violence. You also said you feel no risk or danger and things are progressing... and you have stayed married for a long time.

I'm purposely asking you to shorten the time window and to characterize the good and bad in a balanced way.

Yes, I have stayed a long time.  I had wishful thinking things would get better, and when we were apart (due to my job on a ship) things were better.  However, when we got back together it got worse for me.  I can only imagine what my daughter went through to cause her eating disorder, which is now in full remission, combined with a knee injury that pretty much ended my ocean going career rapidly followed by COVID, created a perfect BPD storm which escalated her stress and resulting symptoms.

Back in 2019, just after our daughter came home from her stay for her mental illness, my wife blamed me for everything bad, and drug me to couple's therapy for the first time. 

Previously I drug her, the therapists throughout the years, and all of them focused 90% on her, but she eventually fired all of those, and I eventually gave up after arranging for no less than 8 different couple's therapists over the years.  So, even though the 2019 therapist believed my wife's false narrative, I stuck with it even though this weakened my sense of self to the point where I thought I was the primary problem as I was thinking some therapy is better than the alternative of no therapy.  It didn't help matters that this therapist reminded me too much of my previous exgf who without any doubt had mental health issues.  This therapist got my wife into individual therapy in 2021, and got me into individual therapy by ultimatum in May/June 2022 shortly after my wife's most recent suicide attempt, where I was first told about BPD about 40 minutes into the first session with my individual therapist - it was that obvious to my therapist.

For the first 90 days, I explored BPD, and had to reverse the transference, projection of my wife with the combined countertransference of the couple's therapist in order to regain my sense of self.  By August 2022, I started to push back on my wife's false narrative that she had been saying about me since August 2019 - three years of 'no progress'.  Week after week, I picked a topic that would highlight a primary symptom of BPD in my wife, after the couple's therapist told me she did not have BPD.  By the end of September, the couple's therapist fired us after my wife became physically violent with a wall, and the therapist told me 'maybe, just maybe', and gave me several tools to move forward with my wife's abusive behaviors towards me and our children.

I use the extensive history to learn about BPD; however, my focus shifted from reconnecting with my wife, to the safety of our family.  Now that the 'safety' portion has mostly been accomplished, where our children can actually be children, rather than scared of mom.  I can once again be inclusive on focusing on the relationship aspect as well.

PS: I know you are asking dating questions... we can split the thread if you like.

I would prefer to stay focused on my wife's recovery; however, divorcing and dating is a 'backup plan' in case my primary focus fails, as I am "Hoping/Praying for the best; but, planning for the worst".  I am being realistic.  I would like this thread to remain singular in nature so it can be more easily followed, even if I have dual thought processes or best and worst case scenarios. 

I want to learn, so I don't trigger my wife with crazy hitting on me, in front of her on two occasions in the past two years.

I also realize that recovery is not linear, and there will be lapses, like the one on January 16th where my wife had a full borderline-like episode exhibiting all but two symptoms in the episode, where she first openly used the DBT fact checking tool (or equivalent), when she split our daughter completely black.  Even though it was a failure in maintaining her anger, it was a success in utilizing a fact checking tool.  As long as my wife's recovery is trending upward overall (measured month to month, not daily or weekly which can be too volatile) I promised I would stay by her side.  However, if the upward trend stops or reverses, then I will escalate the situation after my youngest goes to college in a few years time.

Whatever I learn now, I want to apply to my current relationship, and if that fails, then any future relationships as well.  Make sense?

Thank you for those provocative questions, I am focused more on the present, specifically the past two years, as that is the metric I've read on the NIH for remission.  However, it would be negligent of me not to consider all past behaviors of my current and previous partner to help me figure out why I have been involved with two different BPD women from seemingly opposite character traits (due to differing comorbidities, which occurs in most pwBPD according to several NIH studies).

I am also focusing on myself, and what I  have brought to the table in order to attract 'crazy', and looking if these are learned behaviors in response to my eggshell caretaking responses, or if they are more deeply rooted from childhood wounds - from what I have found so far, it is a combination of the two.

Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

At 50, those apps weren't made for my age group.  The singles I met in the 40-50 range fell into two categories- the partying/casual sex crowd, and the extreme emotional baggage crowd.  Some were actually comedy gold where they'd list everything they hated about men and wouldn't tolerate...it was a surreal experience.

My advice- stay married!

Pook,

   Thank you for your insight, I suspected as much for our age group.

   It is my intent on staying married, or separated if it doesn't work out in accordance with doctrine which we have discussed on other threads, unless she does something similar that your wife did.

   I know my wife's heart is in the right place and she is slowly getting better through therapy (not typical therapy for BPD).  Only time will tell how successful it will be.  I am hoping to employ Murphy's Law in reverse, where if I plan for the worst (the splinter topic of this thread), it won't happen.

   As always, your advice is much appreciated.

   Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

SC,

   I very much agree with you and your perspective.  However, right now, my marriage has not been a happy one, since 2006 when her mask came off.  There have been a few bread crumbs, hopefully these will become bread slices, and hopefully a full meal at a 1/4 to 1/2 fraction of the love bombing phase - perhaps ('most likely' from what I have read) wishful thinking on my part, and build it from the ashes as a healthy relationship like the mythical phoenix - that's where couple's therapy comes in after I have used it to highlight the symptoms and get her to become self-aware of her issues so she can do the right thing and fix them.

   I am realistic, I cannot fix her, only she can.  However, I am here to focus on fixing my side of the street.  I will not seek out new romance - never have, if things ultimately fail here, as I too like action/adventure, and I have already experienced several lifetimes worth in my job and travels, yet there is still more to do.

   Your perspective is always valued. 

   Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

EyesUp,

   Thank you for the clarification.  I see the 'tangent' more as a 'splinter' or a different angle to examine the same issue of why I attract the 'crazy' ones without any personal boundaries.

Thanks for your response.  That said, please accept my apologies - My question wasn't really clear.  I meant to ask "what would you do differently to make sure you don't pick another disordered partner?" - but I think the question came across as "how would you find a new partner?"

I didn't intend to go down the path of how to start dating or where to find a date - I feel like I've unintentionally launched a tangent.  Again, my apologies.

No apology needed, it is a valid perspective on this question. 

I don't think I would 'intentionally pick' another disordered partner again, I can now recognize these issues literally a mile away from their body language in some cases, while others are very subtle, as is my wife, so I would keep my eyes open, and hold reasonable boundaries that are neither too hard, nor too soft, but 'just right' for my value system.  I have tuned up my 'picker' as I previously indicated in this thread - the school of 'hard knocks' is a very unforgiving, but very motivating teacher in this regard.

Perhaps you answered anyway - I hear you re: background checks and related diligence. That said, some people have private profiles or simply don't participate in social media.

 

I'm one of those ones that don't, it was frowned upon to have an active profile in my job.

In that case, can you think of anything else?  What are some other ways to establish rapport, trust, and ultimately conviction that there's a good match and a real connection, based on mutual understanding and appreciation?

 

Like SC indicated, it will have to happen naturally (organically), and I will take my time on it.  I will follow my 'gut' instinct more closely, as I was clearly blinded by love bombing and did it anyways in spite of my gut telling me otherwise.  This is a very painful, costly, and time consuming lesson that I have learned.

Based on everything you've learned about BPD, what can be done to avoid getting into another BPD relationship?  I realize that we're in "detaching" so just want to say: if your goal isn't necessarily to detach, please don't feel obligated to respond.

This thread was split from another on the detaching board, although my primary intent is 'bettering'; however, 'detaching' is also being considered if my primary goal fails.  I feel better and more thought provoking questions can be had in the 'detaching' board.

That said, here is my perspective to answer to your question...  In addition to maintaining boundaries and following my 'gut feeling' that I have already mentioned, I have studied the behavior patterns of my wife, and a therapist who is a diagnosed borderline who expressed nearly identical feelings towards her husband that my wife has expressed towards me along with several members here who have had similar experiences with their romantic partners.  I was able to pick this therapist's brain, to gain a better understanding of my wife.  From my personal observations, there are two obvious traits, or red flags to look out for.

#1 - Any partner who does physical violence (actual or projected) is a (assuming you don't hit back).  This is especially true of women who hit their partners according to Randi Kreger in one of her follow-on books.
#2 - They become dysregulated, if you are late in returning a call, text, arriving home, etc. - this varies from person to person for the ones I have dealt with it is 15 to 30 minutes late and they will start to dysregulate especially if they are stressed and accuse you of cheating on them.

  Not every BPD does these, my exgf didn't but she was predominantly NPD with BPD and more, so these cannot be relied on if they are not present.  There are other things like 'oversharing', have a tendency to blame shift on others, especially all of their exes, instead of taking responsibility for their own stuff, among other things.  I find the assessment tool in the SWOE 3rd edition by Randi Kreger along with her other checklists in that book would be very helpful.  I don't want to reinvent the wheel here, I just want to be aware of being able to identify potential BPD partners or other disorders, and then avoid them.  I find most are very easy to spot, like my exgf.  However, others are not so easy, and may not have a PD at all, but some other issues going on (with all the baggage that Pook & SC has alluded to).

Even though my wife is the ultra-rare exception at 29 months, from what I have observed and learned in a variety of books and articles, nearly all pwBPD will exhibit a sufficient number of symptoms well before 2 years into a relationship and most by 1 year, if not sooner, in my exgf I knew something was amiss the moment we met in person, and retrospectively looking back, there were enough symptoms to be observed within a month or two of meeting her.  I have personal experience on both ends of this spectrum, and observed experience with points in between.

I am mainly exploring this area to learn about myself on why I have been in two romantic relationships where BPD is most likely present along with attracting at least two other BPDs along with several others that have some kind of mental health issue going on (codependency, attachment issues, etc.).  I also hope to identify my own traits which attract these people to me, much like moths to a flame, so I can modify my behaviors and/or traits to reduce this which may or may not help with my current relationship with my wife.

Thanks for responding, and I look forward to more thought provoking questions.

Take care.

SD

[SinisterComplex]

SC,

   I very much agree with you and your perspective.  However, right now, my marriage has not been a happy one, since 2006 when her mask came off.  There have been a few bread crumbs, hopefully these will become bread slices, and hopefully a full meal at a 1/4 to 1/2 fraction of the love bombing phase - perhaps ('most likely' from what I have read) wishful thinking on my part, and build it from the ashes as a healthy relationship like the mythical phoenix - that's where couple's therapy comes in after I have used it to highlight the symptoms and get her to become self-aware of her issues so she can do the right thing and fix them.

   I am realistic, I cannot fix her, only she can.  However, I am here to focus on fixing my side of the street.  I will not seek out new romance - never have, if things ultimately fail here, as I too like action/adventure, and I have already experienced several lifetimes worth in my job and travels, yet there is still more to do.

   Your perspective is always valued. 

   Take care.

SD

You gotta do you. My response was definitely more for the membership at large. More along the lines of big picture and providing a different avenue of thought.

It wasn't necessarily specific to your own situation. I respect you trying to put in the work and doing what you have to do. That you can never be faulted for. The only part to your situation which I will comment on is that if it comes to a point when you have done everything you can do and you have exhausted your resources do not be afraid to choose yourself and walk away if that is ultimately what you have to do. Whatever puts you in the best position to succeed and what truly makes you happy is what I support.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[SaltyDawg]

You gotta do you. My response was definitely more for the membership at large. More along the lines of big picture and providing a different avenue of thought.

It wasn't necessarily specific to your own situation. I respect you trying to put in the work and doing what you have to do. That you can never be faulted for. The only part to your situation which I will comment on is that if it comes to a point when you have done everything you can do and you have exhausted your resources do not be afraid to choose yourself and walk away if that is ultimately what you have to do. Whatever puts you in the best position to succeed and what truly makes you happy is what I support.

I agree, each person here, needs to 'do you' as you put it so elegantly simple.

I also agree, and have already come to the conclusion about not being 'afraid to choose yourself and walk away if that is ultimately what you have to do' when I finally called my wife's 'bluff' on divorce threats and threats of separation - which shifted the balance of power in the relationship from her to me.

However, for the time being, I will prioritize our children over myself - they did not ask to be in this situation.  Our daughter has fully recovered from her mental health illness based on what she shared with us earlier this week and I now consider her in full remission - I won't say cured, but it sure feels like it as she is no longer battling her inner thoughts on it like she was as recently as a few months ago, even though there have been no physical symptoms for years.  Our son, still has anger issues; however, they are far less than what they were a year ago, major improvement there too - I am hoping that he will fully 'grow out of it' or at least self-manage it, and I think he will - still a work in progress.  I will do what is best for both of them, until they are both out of the house and in college/university/trade school. 

My wife benefits too from my leadership, and boundary which is a bit of manipulation to do the 'right thing' for all those involved in removing all forms of previously unrecognized abusive behaviors by everyone involved.  My wife is also making progress, it seems to be working, so I will stay the course that I have found that works effectively in my scenario, more significant progress since my last post - I don't want to 'jinx' it, so I will talk about it in a different thread in the upcoming weeks and months, it definitely looks promising and that gives me hope except to say, she was actually poking fun at her own issues that would previously trigger her, and was a previously forbidden topic as it would almost certainly result in her being triggered - one less carton of eggshells to maneuver around.  I also know there will be a lapse or few in the future.  The recovery from the more recent lapses have been good, time will tell if this is fully successful.

However, circling back to the original topic of this thread, this question was asked as a ' contingency plan' in case of why I attract 'crazy'.  It is part of one of my many mantras of "Hope/Pray for the Best; however, plan for the worst".  This is part of my planning for the worst, where I hope to employ Murphy's Law in reverse, where it will ward off the 'worst' as I have planned for it, that way it won't happen - call it superstition - it works for me.

I gave my logic in a previous post on how to identify 'crazy'; however, I am interested in how others identify crazy as well?

Take care.

SD

[Pook075]

This is part of my planning for the worst, where I hope to employ Murphy's Law in reverse, where it will ward off the 'worst' as I have planned for it, that way it won't happen - call it superstition - it works for me.

Here's the thing buddy, you don't need a contingency plan.  I did the same thing, planning stuff out in my head, and I'm not doing a single one of those things because that's not where my life ended up leading.  Even if you do break up at some point, she's going to be a part of your daily life because of the kids.  There's no such thing as a clean break with family involved.

To answer your main question, we'd all define crazy differently and I genuinely believe we all have varying levels of crazy within us.  For example, I've been depressed lately working around the house preparing it to sell.  There's some things I can't do myself...and I don't have any help...but I've let those things knock me off track when I could have done several other things.  Is that a little bit of crazy?  Yup.  Depression and self sabotage because I was too focused on feeling sorry for myself.  It's passed though since that's what healthy minds do; they self-regulate and move on.

As I started online dating, I was hyper focused on spotting crazy, and I found it often.  What I realized though as I tried to protect myself from a million different scary traits and symptoms is that there's only one thing that truly mattered, and that's being able to talk through things when they're not ideal, to have the hard conversations where we genuinely disagree but still manage to find a middle ground that works for everyone.  As long as you find that, then you don't have to be scared of crazy anymore.

No matter what happens in your marriage, you're going to come out of this okay.  Just remember that this is not only about you, but four people total.  Your decisions will have lasting impacts no matter what path you choose, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your life regardless.

If I could go back and do everything over once again, with what I understand today, I'd save my marriage for the family's sake and for my relationship with God.  I'll be happier divorced and eventually with a new bride, but what my family of four went through to get here was a very steep price to pay.  Divorce is terrible- that's why God hates it, and it should only be a last resort when everything else has failed.

Only you can decide the appropriate path for your life, and I do realize how impossible the choice can feel at times.  BPD is debilitating in relationships and there's a price to pay there as well.

[zachira]

I like to use the word disordered instead of crazy. Crazy to me sounds very harsh and like we are making fun of the person. Disordered to me means that the person sadly gets in their own way by making their problems worse by blaming others AND has little self-awareness about how their behaviors affect others and their own role in making themselves so unhappy. 

[SaltyDawg]

I like to use the word disordered instead of crazy. Crazy to me sounds very harsh and like we are making fun of the person. Disordered to me means that the person sadly gets in their own way by making their problems worse by blaming others AND has little self-awareness about how their behaviors affect others and their own role in making themselves so unhappy. 

I am a child of the 70's-80's where it actually had a positive connotation, and to me it is a neutral word.  Unfortunately I do not have editing power, otherwise I would change the word 'Crazy' to disorded.

However, if I did that, then I would not be able to call myself 'crazy', as I perceive myself as being crazy for being in such relationships - crazy making.  I use it as a very general descriptor that is either positive (crazy 4 u, crazy in love, etc.), neutral to somewhat negative (I'm crazy for having been in two borderline relationships and not realizing it until recently - "Crazy isn't it?" or "That's crazy!") to describe myself, or negative (s/he is bats**t crazy).

I agree it is a poor choice of words on my part, as it has been triggering for a few of our members - my apologies to those members.  In my future postings, I will use the term 'disordered,' or possibly even 'neurodivergent' (as clearly defined by this medically reviewed article at https://www.verywellhealth.com/neurodivergent-5216749) to describe someone who is on the spectrum, but not at as severe as a disordered (https://www.verywellmind.com/a-list-of-psychological-disorders-2794776) person.  Both of these terms I personally find have more negative connotations to the word 'crazy'; however, I will adjust my usage of the term.

I will not initiate the use of the word outside of this post here on BPD-Family as it is apparently too triggering for others on these boards unless someone else uses it first, and I want to be mindful of all of our members some of whom are hypersensitive to the use of this word.  I made a mistake, and I'm owning it.

Take care.

SD


P.S.  Partial-Disclaimer:  While I have openly use the word as I did not object to the use of the term in the subject line ascribed to me; however, I was not the one who originally selected the 'subject' line directly as it was split from another posting by one of the moderators/admins here who chose the subject line containing this word for me.  Since this word was chosen by a moderator/admin in the subject line - I thought it was fine to use this descriptor in my posts - obviously I thought wrongly about this.

Again, I will apologize for using this term as it was not my intention of triggering others.

[Augustine]

My preference is to not recalibrate the definitions of words when there is utterly no basis for the reconfiguration.

Crazy; Insane; Deranged.

adjective
1.
in a state of mind which prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction; seriously mentally ill.

This is an accurate description of BPD behaviours to the same degree that the word “Road” accurately describes…

noun
1.
a wide way leading from one place to another, especially one with a specially prepared surface which vehicles can use.

[SaltyDawg]

My preference is to not recalibrate the definitions of words when there is utterly no basis for the reconfiguration.

Augustine,

   I would agree with you; however, I would like to be mindful that some members are more sensitive than others and I do not wish to offend, as I had to shift my words for my wife who is also hypersensitive and I needed to rephrase my words in order to reduce the likelihood of triggering her.

   I personally do not find it offensive, nor do those in my community, as the local highschool calls, that my child attends, their cheering section at most sporting events calls themselves "The __________ Crazies" of about a hundred or so neurotypical children cheering for their team - good fun for the kids.  The _blank_ is the name of the high school.

SD

cra·zy
/ˈkrāzē/
INFORMAL
adjective
adjective: crazy; comparative adjective: crazier; superlative adjective: craziest


1. mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.
          "Stella went crazy and assaulted a visitor"

  extremely annoyed or angry.
          "the noise they made was driving me crazy"

  foolish.
          "it was crazy to hope that good might come out of this mess"


2.  extremely enthusiastic.
          "I'm crazy about Cindy"


3.  (of an angle) appearing absurdly out of place or in an unlikely position.
          "the monument leaned at a crazy angle"


ARCHAIC
          (of a ship or building) full of cracks or flaws; unsound or shaky.


adverb - NORTH AMERICAN
extremely.
          "I've been crazy busy"


noun - NORTH AMERICAN
noun: crazy; plural noun: crazies

a mentally deranged person.
          "keep that crazy away from me"


Phrases
like crazy — to a great degree.
          "I was laughing like crazy"


Origin

late 16th century (in sense ‘full of cracks’): from craze
          like crazy


phrase of crazy

INFORMAL
to a great degree.
         "I was laughing like crazy"

To summarize, I do not find the term offensive; however, as some do, I need to respect that, even though I so like to use words that I can play with the meaning - as humor is one of my coping mechanisms when dealing with the disordered.

[SinisterComplex]

Note to all...just a friendly reminder to keep discussions as collegium. Please see Membership Board Guideline 2.1 for further reference. To make it simple and concise a cliff notes part of our guideline: Please note that collegial discussion is different than debate. Debate is an argument or a discussion generally ending with a vote or agreement on the best decision. In debate, unity is the objective. Members are discouraged from debating and arguing against others' positions, or questioning the wisdom of others, or restating of their position repeatedly.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-