Figuring out why I attract BPD

[SaltyDawg]

My preference is to not recalibrate the definitions of words when there is utterly no basis for the reconfiguration.

Augustine,

   I would agree with you; however, I would like to be mindful that some members are more sensitive than others and I do not wish to offend, as I had to shift my words for my wife who is also hypersensitive and I needed to rephrase my words in order to reduce the likelihood of triggering her.

   I personally do not find it offensive, nor do those in my community, as the local highschool calls, that my child attends, their cheering section at most sporting events calls themselves "The __________ Crazies" of about a hundred or so neurotypical children cheering for their team - good fun for the kids.  The _blank_ is the name of the high school.

SD

cra·zy
/ˈkrāzē/
INFORMAL
adjective
adjective: crazy; comparative adjective: crazier; superlative adjective: craziest


1. mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.
          "Stella went crazy and assaulted a visitor"

  extremely annoyed or angry.
          "the noise they made was driving me crazy"

  foolish.
          "it was crazy to hope that good might come out of this mess"


2.  extremely enthusiastic.
          "I'm crazy about Cindy"


3.  (of an angle) appearing absurdly out of place or in an unlikely position.
          "the monument leaned at a crazy angle"


ARCHAIC
          (of a ship or building) full of cracks or flaws; unsound or shaky.


adverb - NORTH AMERICAN
extremely.
          "I've been crazy busy"


noun - NORTH AMERICAN
noun: crazy; plural noun: crazies

a mentally deranged person.
          "keep that crazy away from me"


Phrases
like crazy — to a great degree.
          "I was laughing like crazy"


Origin

late 16th century (in sense ‘full of cracks’): from craze
          like crazy


phrase of crazy

INFORMAL
to a great degree.
         "I was laughing like crazy"

To summarize, I do not find the term offensive; however, as some do, I need to respect that, even though I so like to use words that I can play with the meaning - as humor is one of my coping mechanisms when dealing with the disordered.

[SinisterComplex]

Note to all...just a friendly reminder to keep discussions as collegium. Please see Membership Board Guideline 2.1 for further reference. To make it simple and concise a cliff notes part of our guideline: Please note that collegial discussion is different than debate. Debate is an argument or a discussion generally ending with a vote or agreement on the best decision. In debate, unity is the objective. Members are discouraged from debating and arguing against others' positions, or questioning the wisdom of others, or restating of their position repeatedly.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[SaltyDawg]

It happened again, my 6th sense was triggered, yet again, this time at a convenience store, I was getting a large diet soda and some Korean BBQ, and the clerk behind the counter as I was leaving the store said to me "I wish I had a husband like you..." as I smiled and waved good-bye clearly showing my wedding band...

The meeting was all of 90 seconds, give or take, the girl behind the counter was slender and attractive, around 6 foot, 5 inches tall (I'm 6 foot 2 inches), about 10-15 years my junior so she did catch my eye and I smiled at her as I approached the counter.  She struck up a conversation as I was checking out, I don't remember the exact exchange of small talk / pleasantries, but it did involve her giving me a good discount at the register of her initiative, I mentioned that I do like to save money (who doesn't).  After I had gotten my receipt, I thanked her, and told her to have a pleasant day.  She then told me "I wish I had a husband like you", I held up my left hand and flashed my wedding band waving good-bye as I was leaving the store.

While there was nothing that indicated BPD; however, I do feel that something with that interchange was clearly "off" - fortunately I was only passing through the area a couple hundred miles from home, so I doubt I will ever see this person again - it was certainly memorable with the 'weird' vibes factor.

I would have thought nothing of the exchange of pleasantries if she said "thank you" or something similar.  However, when I was told she wanted a husband like me - that triggered me and I couldn't get out of the store fast enough.

Thoughts?

[Notwendy]

I hope the discount was legit- such as a tripple A, military, student, etc- so it isn't hurting the business. That would be a boundary violation.

As to what she said- I think it's hard to interpret a compliment. She said "like you" not "you". It's a bit off but maybe she really meant- a nice conscientious husband and not more- or more- but only if you had taken it further, which you didn't.

I recall seeing one of my kids' coaches at an award ceremony dressed up in a nice suit. I had only seen him in athletic clothing, and I spontanously said something like "you look nice all dressed up" and meant absolutely nothing more than that. It was actually a bit of a surprise statement than anything else as we don't usually see someone out of context. If he always wore a suit, that wouldn't be different. I'd have said the same to a female coach if she were all dressed up. He replied something like "my wife wouldn't like hearing this". I felt shocked and embarrased. I don't think I said a word to him after that.

At work, we have training not to say something like that. I wouldn't ever consider complimenting anyone on their appearance in the workplace. But now, I don't do it to anyone, unless I know them very well and they know me well enough to know I only mean the compliment.

Was the clerk being out of line or just being complimentary in a bit of an odd way? I don't think it's possible to know. But back to boundaries- you are married and so, it's not going to go further no matter what she meant or what her boundaries are.

[SaltyDawg]

NW,

   The discount was legit, it was posted in the window in the front of the store. 

   As always your perspective is appreciated as it is different from mine and offers a different point of view that I had not considered.  However, those were the words she spoke; however, her non-verbals, body language, she seemed a bit overly interested which made me feel uncomfortable interacting with her.

   I do have strong boundaries, especially when it comes to being loyal and my BPDw has questioned even more innocent interactions with other women - I know if my wife was with me at the time (she wasn't) this would have triggered her - I'm guessing part of it is still the walking on eggshells routine, even though this has improved dramatically in the past few months.

[Tangled mangled]

Agree with what NW said. Although it does sound like an odd way to compliment a customer, some people just don’t take themselves too seriously.
Working in healthcare, I see this all the time, with female workers saying oh I wish my husband would do that or I wish I had a partner like that, a way to say I wish someone I know would do so and so.

What would you say about workplace ‘husband’ and’wife’. If my husband told me he had a work ‘wife’, I wouldn’t be so insecure to worry about it, as long as there’s trust within the relationship.
I wonder if you are picking up on these signs because you have been falsely accused by your pwbpd.
I am training in a male driven field so I too have experienced what NW described with the sports coach. I had a chat with colleagues, sometimes not even giving compliments, just sharing a benign joke , not even personal, and I’ve had one raise his left hand to flash his wedding band and another quickly mentioned his wife in the next statement.
All that says to me is that my male colleagues were displaying their wife’s projected insecurities.
I’ve walked past some couples- a bit older than myself and watched how just being civil, like saying sorry or thank you while passing on a narrow pavement triggers the women’s insecurities, like they grab their partners arm tightly as if to say back off.
In my job I have looked after male patients whose partners are so insecure when I approach their husbands or boyfriends- being pleasant as my role requires- but triggering their partner’s insecurities.

Just my 2 cents- some people say  inappropriate comments in the name of being nice as part of their jobs.

[Notwendy]

I think everyone has a filter that we experience things through. When I think back on the coach's response, I wonder- was it something I did? Or is it him? Are women frequently hitting on him so he assumes it? Or is he walking on eggshells that a comment like that would upset his wife? We can't know what someone else is thinking.

Is it your wife's interpretation that if a woman is friendly to you, then she's a threat? Or is it your radar and you picked up on crazy? Or is the cashier over the top friendly with everyone?

It's interesting as we do sense boundaries when we interact with other people. It would be interesting to consider what about the cashier made you feel uncomfortable. Was it her or was it being worried about your wife's reaction?

I think our radar for "crazy" is important and protects us from dysfunctional relationships, so good to pay attention to it. For whatever reason, you felt uncomfortable. Perhaps that's the most important aspect no matter what the clerk intended.

[Steppenwolf]

I've been working with my own therapist on developing CRAYDAR (Crazy RADAR) where, like you, I can now detect crazy with my gut feeling.

I also am working with my therapist, on figuring out why I attract Crazy, and I am attracted to Crazy.

I have been thinking a lot about a similar question lately. But mostly about the second part, why do I feel attracted to Crazy (no valueing implied by me). I do feel there are some reasons that are specific to me and some others, but that are often lacking in this discussion.

I was late-diagnosed with ADHD a while ago, but never cared about it except for medication. Currently I am finding out that I also have a lot of ASD traits, maybe even enough for a complete ASD diagnosis.

Yeah, all my life I felt attracted to highly emotional reactive crazy type of women. I kind of don't need to develop a CRAYDAR. In my life I have been attracted to only two types of women, other neurodivergents or cluster-B women. If I am attracted to her, I can be absolutely sure by now she ticks at least one of those boxes.

One reason I think I feel so extremely attracted to cluster-B is that they often allow themselves to more openly show traits that I learned to mask. I have been abused or mobbed frequently whenever I tried to be openly myself, so this really is something I am missing in my life. And it would just be so great to be someone who allows himself to be more openly atypical and also to have another person in my life who feels the same way and can relate to feeling different from others. I found both types of women that I feel attracted to can deeply relate to this experience and this creates an instant bond.

Also I do share a lot of the emotional high-reactivity. Neurodivergence and cluster-B disorders have an extremely high overlap in terms of symptoms. BPD is a very common misdiagnosis for women with ADHD or ASD, so even professionals seem to struggle with detecting the difference.

It is something I am currently trying to come to terms with. I almost had a final breakup with my uBPDw a few months ago and reflected heavily on this and how I want to live my life in the future. Realizing I feel highly attracted to both cluster-Bs and neurodivergent women made me feel much less like a victim and showed me all the beautiful aspects these relationships have put into my life. It also helped me realize that I really have to work on my on unmasking to feel much less in need of following someone else in their atypical ways and to learn more about myself.

[Pensive1]

Thought I’d comment on this comment, because elements of it are so on the mark.

Figuring out why I attract Crazy?
You don't.
First, I would use a word that supports clear thinking like "emotionally available and willing to value me" (not crazy). And I would rephrase the question to be something like, "why am I willing to overlook significant personal issues in another person to have access to emotionally availability and being valued"?
Others have said this above in different ways.
So, we conducted a survey a few years back asking members what kind of emotional state they were in when the got involved with their "BPD" or "BPD-ish" partner. Overwhelmingly, members described being in a situationally vulnerable state; recently broken up from another relationship, recently divorced, lost a job, learned of a health issue, financial problems, dealing with the death/loss of someone dear, etc. Others described longer term vulnerabilities such as lack of confidence, feeling unlovable, feeling old, substance abuse problems, underachievement. Feelings of be  undervalued. Wounded.
Vulnerable.
Only a small percent were "on their game".

In my case, I got together with my BPD ex not long after my ex-wife decided to end our marriage. I was extremely vulnerable at that point, and very down on myself. And I was willing to disregard all kinds of “significant personal issues”. My BPD ex was in a financially disastrous state (actually facing eviction), her apartment was a mess (dishes hadn’t been washed in many months, etc.), her son was in rebellion, and she spoke endlessly of having been victimized by others. But I totally fell for her.

Then my ex-wife begged me to come back. And I temporarily returned to her. I did that both out of a sense of duty to my ex-wife and also because my BPD ex’s constant litany of her resentments/victimization really bothered me. But then I left my ex-wife and returned to my BPD ex. None of what I did in that period showed good thinking or decent judgement.

People with BPD undervalue themselves and tend to seek relationships with some level of imbalance in their favor. They learn from experience that they will be more appreciated in this type of paring (e.g. younger women with older man, extrovert with introvert, "hot" with "average looking", sexual, etc.)
This is why we encourage members coming out of these relationships to do their best to not see themselves as victims and be again be vulnerable. This is not to say that the relationship and the problems were their fault. Hardly. But it is to say that need based, compensating relationships which we think our solving our problems may just be trading one problem for another.
Being idealized by an attractive partner when we are in a weakened state, is a powerful force. And for our partner, having someone idealizing them back is equally powerful.

BPDs really do undervalue themselves – that’s very true of my ex. But our relationship didn’t really have imbalance in her favor. I was younger, had my life more together, would likely have been considered better looking, etc. Though with the ending of my prior marriage, I considered myself much more at fault than my ex-wife (I would now say that my ex-wife and I contributed about equally to problems in that relationship). My getting together with someone with BPD when I did was definitely trading one problem for another.

The NPD guy who pursued and got my BPD partner (ending our relationship) did so at a nadir-point in her life. Her son had become addicted to meth, suicidal, and homeless. And in the midst of that, I was gone for a month caring for a dying relative (and people with BPD don’t do well with being alone – especially in the midst of such crisis). So she was extremely vulnerable when he moved in on her. And he was love-bombing/idealizing her, and that was extremely powerful. Other than the fact that he was married (and cheating on his wife), he was the more attractive and accomplished “partner”. She definitely saw that relationship as solving her problems, but it actually left her much worse off (her mental health is far worse now), and she traded me – basically a decent guy who really loved her – for a controlling philanderer who can’t genuinely love her and is keeping her as a secret mistress. 

In my case, I appear to go for all kinds of crazy. My ex-wife was bipolar and alcoholic, and also suffered from impacts of childhood trauma. My recent ex had pretty severe (definitely not high-functioning) BPD. And the other woman I fell most strongly for had Dissociative Identity Disorder. Other women I've felt milder infatuation with also have all had significant mental health issues.

For me, it’s clear that it goes back to my childhood. My mother had severe BPD. And she was alcoholic. There was a ton of violence and abuse, including some sexual abuse. I was very much a parentified child, and much of my childhood was spent taking care of my mom. And I developed a strong self-sacrifice schema, where I feel compelled to take care of other people’s needs before my own. I feel like I need to rescue women in distress. There’s definitely what psychologists refer to as “repetition compulsion”, where I’m driven to put myself in circumstances that repeat my childhood trauma. In the case of the woman with DID that turned out semi-OK. We didn’t get together as romantic partners (even though I was strongly attracted to her), and I found a therapist for her, and she put in a ton of work to heal, and is now entirely free of DID. Actually, she’s now my best friend (and it’s a healthy friendship and I have zero romantic attraction to her). But I know the odds of a semi-OK outcome when I go down this path are minimal. I know it’s extremely unhealthy and I’m trying to change these patterns via therapy. I’m finding Schema Therapy especially helpful - one thing it focuses on is why we keep repeatedly seeking out the same types of problematic romantic partners.

[Pensive1]

… Red Flag strategies don't work. 
Its not what to avoid in a women, it is what intrinsic values do you seek?  It is about learning how to read and understand people.
 

I’m not sure about this. I agree that learning how to read and understand people is crucial in choosing an appropriate romantic partner. But each of three seriously mentally ill women I fell for have had intrinsic values that were notably consistent with my own. They were each highly compassionate people. They were all notably kind women. And this played out in many of the choices each of them made. Integrity mattered to each of them. They each sought to be honest more than the average person.  Insofar as political views reflect ethical beliefs, there was notable consistently with my own political views.

With each of these three women, disordered thinking led, at times, to screwy beliefs and severely problematic behavior (including behavior that hurt others). But there’s not necessarily a fundamental dissonance of values. And everyone at times acts in ways that are inconsistent with their own values. The fact that my BPD ex is with an affair partner who is cheating on his wife is not only inconsistent with my values, but is also inconsistent with her own values (and this clearly bothers her). I’m not saying this to absolve her behaviors – but it’s not clear to me that a solely positive focus on having shared intrinsic values is sufficient for making appropriate choices in romantic partners.

[SaltyDawg]

Tangled Mangled,

Thank you for sharing.

What would you say about workplace ‘husband’ and’wife’. If my husband told me he had a work ‘wife’, I wouldn’t be so insecure to worry about it, as long as there’s trust within the relationship.
I wonder if you are picking up on these signs because you have been falsely accused by your pwbpd.

I think you are definitely on to something here as I had effectively isolated myself socially because of these false accusations - it is something I am working on with my own individual therapist on my own issues.

I am training in a male driven field so I too have experienced what NW described with the sports coach. I had a chat with colleagues, sometimes not even giving compliments, just sharing a benign joke , not even personal, and I’ve had one raise his left hand to flash his wedding band and another quickly mentioned his wife in the next statement.
All that says to me is that my male colleagues were displaying their wife’s projected insecurities.

Thank you for your insight, I agree with it now that I can see it from a different perspective - this is much appreciated.

I’ve walked past some couples- a bit older than myself and watched how just being civil, like saying sorry or thank you while passing on a narrow pavement triggers the women’s insecurities, like they grab their partners arm tightly as if to say back off.
In my job I have looked after male patients whose partners are so insecure when I approach their husbands or boyfriends- being pleasant as my role requires- but triggering their partner’s insecurities.

My wife has been triggered when this happens in a similar manner that you have described.  Thanks for sharing your observations that have been extremely valuable to me.

Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

I think everyone has a filter that we experience things through. When I think back on the coach's response, I wonder- was it something I did? Or is it him? Are women frequently hitting on him so he assumes it? Or is he walking on eggshells that a comment like that would upset his wife? We can't know what someone else is thinking.

These are all good guesses as to what is happening.  For me, it is a lot more than just words, it is non-verbals, such as body language - I usually can differentiate the difference.  Subconsciously, I am walking on eggshells, as it would upset my wife and has in the past, so that can be a component of me being triggered - there was something definitely off about her mentally in addition to her almost cartoonish physical attributes.

Is it your wife's interpretation that if a woman is friendly to you, then she's a threat? Or is it your radar and you picked up on crazy? Or is the cashier over the top friendly with everyone?

There was one other customer in the store, and she was not friendly with him - looked like a local person who had walked to the store (no other vehicles in the lot) - this was perhaps why I felt this way, as I was definitely being treated differently in a markedly much more friendly way.

It's interesting as we do sense boundaries when we interact with other people. It would be interesting to consider what about the cashier made you feel uncomfortable. Was it her or was it being worried about your wife's reaction?

As I was definitely treated differently than the other customer, it was her, as I usually don't feel uncomfortable with friendly women, except when I am singled out - and in this instance I was.

With respect to my wife's reaction, whenever a woman treats me nice, she does become protective, but makes sure she treats me nicer that the  woman that she perceives as a threat to her.

I think our radar for "crazy" is important and protects us from dysfunctional relationships, so good to pay attention to it. For whatever reason, you felt uncomfortable. Perhaps that's the most important aspect no matter what the clerk intended.

Agreed, after having been exposed to a lot in the past few years, my 'gut' feeling more often than not is quite accurate.  I have since learned how to use 'wise mind' to discern more accurately what I am encountering.

[Notwendy]

One possibility is that you attract "crazy" but another is that you attract people and some of them are crazy because there's a mix in the general population. You may not be noticing the ones who are not crazy- because they don't cross boundaries.

Attraction is personality factors too. I have a friend who I would not describe as movie star attractive but he's likable and approachable. He didn't marry a disordered person but I wouldn't be surprised if he attracted both disordered and not disordered people because people like him in general.

As you said, it's a lot of non verbal communication. I think we can "sense" boundaries when interacting with others. I feel more comfortable interacting with some people than others even if I can't describe exactly why.

[SaltyDawg]

One possibility is that you attract "crazy" but another is that you attract people and some of them are crazy because there's a mix in the general population. You may not be noticing the ones who are not crazy- because they don't cross boundaries.

Good point.

As you said, it's a lot of non verbal communication. I think we can "sense" boundaries when interacting with others. I feel more comfortable interacting with some people than others even if I can't describe exactly why.

Another good point you are making here, thanks for sharing. 

Take care.

[Kashi]

"had a lesbian affair in college"

What?   

Are you kidding.  That constitutes something bad does it?

Looking for perfection?   People have experiences across their lives.   They are entitled to do that.

Using that red flag method nobody should have a relationship with anyone who had a relationship with a pwBPD

Which is all of us.   Would you say we should be seen as a red flag?

I personally do not understand how people get trapped by love bombing.  I didn't.  I saw it and I started to balance it for her, that was my mistake.   My mistake was I saw her inexperience (or perhaps that was a lie as well) anyway I read the room wrong in that regard.

I don't judge people for being sucked into a love bomb, I just don't know how that can happen.  Do people think they are actually that great? It's so obvious but people do fall for it, and you learn.  So be it.

Plain and simple.   I completely read the bloody room wrong.   I thought something happened in her past and she would tell me one day about it.

I thought she could add value to my life, and that she would grow with time.   We were both fairly young at the time.  I had more experience.  I knew what I wanted.   I knew the pitfalls of relationships and I thought that I had the key.  On paper and on the non-emotional side we absolutely did.  On that side we were a team to me reckoned with.  She is very successful.  But the persona was a lie.  I didn't know that someone could fake it until they make it for so bloody long.  One day I realized she was not growing, and I was in a state where time had flown past and I lost myself in it.  Plus, in the middle there was a chaos time and I tried to get help from her family and was told it was nothing.  They convinced me it's a family trait because of the way they were raised.  Now I believe the father is BPD and the mother is a Narc.  Everyone was telling me just be patient. 

I believed it.  I believed until I couldn't believe anymore.  Another mistake.

Don't judge people though because they had a life experience. 

That is like saying that a lesbian should judge me because I had an affair with a man when I was young.  Which I did and surprisingly many lesbians would judge me for it.  Go figure.

I would prefer to have someone with real life experiences, so they have worked through the process of growth and know what they want.   I would be checking that they do know what they want, and they aren't aligning it to me and my "desires" completely. Differences are healthy.   I want to hear what they think without be standing in the forefront leading the conversation. 

[SaltyDawg]

Using that red flag method nobody should have a relationship with anyone who had a relationship with a pwBPD

Which is all of us.   Would you say we should be seen as a red flag?

Sad, but true - anyone who gets into a relationship with a pwBPD, and stays in one - that person has issues, I know do, so, yes, I can admit - if I have not worked on my own issues, I too would be a  ; however, I do feel now that I have worked through many of my own issues with my individual therapist, I am now a 

I personally do not understand how people get trapped by love bombing.  I didn't.  I saw it and I started to balance it for her, that was my mistake.   My mistake was I saw her inexperience (or perhaps that was a lie as well) anyway I read the room wrong in that regard.

I don't judge people for being sucked into a love bomb, I just don't know how that can happen.  Do people think they are actually that great? It's so obvious but people do fall for it, and you learn.  So be it.

Plain and simple.   I completely read the bloody room wrong.   I thought something happened in her past and she would tell me one day about it.

Well, for me, I was love(sex) bombed, and enjoyed it immensely.  I was a bit inexperienced, so I too read her wrong, as I didn't know how to read at the time for this one; however, the previous one was a little more obvious, so I left her.

I firmly believe that PWBPD are adult predatory groomers.

[...]

Grooming is a tool that predators use to gain the trust of a target, and ultimately manipulate that trust to gain sexual, monetary, or other advantages. You may have heard the term as it applies to children, but adults can also groom other adults. In fact, some adults may use other adults, and particularly women, to help them in their grooming.

As with other forms of manipulation, grooming is not a simple cut-and-dry technique. It plays on an individual’s insecurities and, even in a strong-minded person, can wreak havoc psychologically.

Recognizing grooming for what it is can help you avoid being groomed yourself or help you support a friend survive a predator.


The Stages of Grooming
Master manipulators use grooming to get what they want out of someone, whether it’s sex, morally questionable behavior, money, or something else. (Does Dirty John ring a bell?)

Whether the target is an adult or child, the stages of grooming by the predator toward their target are typically the same:

Friendship-forming: The predator will work to determine a target’s candidacy by asking questions about the target’s life and gauging their vulnerability, and also getting contact information such as social media handles or phone numbers.
Relationship-forming: The predator works to gain the target’s trust, often through secret-sharing or by fulfilling a need. For instance, they may run errands for the victim or pay for bills. The predator may also share a secret that “only the target can know”, then ask for a similar secret to level the playing field.

Threat-gauging: The predator will engage in a risk assessment to determine how accessible the victim truly is. This is more common among predators who are grooming children but can also happen with adults who will check a target’s relationship strength with friends, family, and roommates.

Isolation: The predator will begin distancing the target from friends or family. This can be done in multiple ways, including surprisingly positive methods such as compliments and favors. The predator may tell the intended victim that they feel an especially strong connection to them, or that they understand each other in a special way that no one else can get. Control is the predator’s intent. By appearing calm and concerning, the predator is seeking to increase their influence over the victim to advance their agenda.

Abuse: In this phase, the predator will start to use the target to meet their needs. With children, this is generally sexual in nature, but predators will use victims for money, to accomplish morally questionable things for them, or even just to fill an emotional need.

Maintenance: Once the victim is doing what the predator wants, the predator will work to keep them under control through various means. These methods can include gas-lighting (telling the victim their feelings are crazy or unreasonable), destroying the victim’s self-esteem, or continuing the isolate the victim from their loved ones.


I KNOW I WAS GROOMED

I too feel as though I was groomed, the first was one was very maliciously intentional back in the 1990's - she was looking for a 'gravy train' - someone to take care of her.  However, the one I am currently married to was also very intentional; however, even though her behaviors were terroristic in nature; however, I did not see premeditation in her.

Thank you for sharing your observations, Kashi, as this resonates for me as well for both borderlines - it is very insightful.

[PeteWitsend]

When I start to look for reasons now, I have to check myself because I know that we can never really KNOW why something happened; we're just trying to fit explanations to the facts we have, but our understanding of the world is never fully thorough & we can't know how things would have gone had we changed them.

I started another thread kind of  like this a couple months ago, where I wondered if sometimes it's just bad luck.. i.e. there are X% of disordered people out there, and you have a certain probability of meeting only disordered people.  So it might not be you.

Also, it seems like disordered people intentionally seek out relationships; they're emotionally needy and will therefore always be "on the hunt."  If you're kind and polite and not a "user" yourself, you're a mark for them. 

[SaltyDawg]

When I start to look for reasons now, I have to check myself because I know that we can never really KNOW why something happened; we're just trying to fit explanations to the facts we have, but our understanding of the world is never fully thorough & we can't know how things would have gone had we changed them.

I agree 'we can never really KNOW why something happened'; however, I am going to postulate that with enough evidence cycles (with covert recordings, to review what actually happened), a pretty good guess can be made of what actually happened.  When doing this, I try to detach myself emotionally, and look at it only under a logical perspective through a PD lens.  With extensive experience the patterns as they repeat themselves, and with each repeat the understanding becomes greater.  Two years ago, I had no clue.  About a year ago, I started to understand - with a lot of trial and error, I was able to get some pretty reasonable level of knowledge of what my pwBPD was thinking, when she was baseline, and also when she was/is dysregulated.

Also, it seems like disordered people intentionally seek out relationships; they're emotionally needy and will therefore always be "on the hunt."  If you're kind and polite and not a "user" yourself, you're a mark for them. 

I also agree with this, as I have been in two romantic BPD relationships.  Now that I have created a set of firm boundaries, my encounters with these kinds of people have become fewer as I will no longer 'overshare' when someone else 'overshares'.  I believe I have made myself a 'harder mark' for them.

[SaltyDawg]

I found an excellent article on the topic of why we keep choosing to be bad relationships:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/liking-the-child-you-love/202406/3-hidden-reasons-you-keep-choosing-bad-relationship-partners

While this article is not specific to BPD or cluster-B, it does reveal some of the components on how we might settle for being in a relationship that is bad for us - a cycle that repeats itself until we are self-aware enough to do something about it and has good pointers to breaking the cycle of repeating a bad relationship with another.

Thoughts?

[Notwendy]

I think these are three big reasons for why people stay in relationships. Who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us is influenced by our family of origin and also largely sub concious. I don't think they have a large factor in who we are inititually attracted to. If someone is attractive- then they are. I think it explains why some people stay in disordered relationships.

Boundaries play a part as well. If someone has emotionally healthy boundaries- they feel a sense of discomfort around a disordered person. They may go out with this person a few times but may not continue the relationships. Others may feel a sense of familiarity or ignore their own feelings and so continue it.

It doesn't seem to explain why someone would approach you at a pool or a checkout person would flirt with you. Maybe you are just an approachable guy and people do that but it's the "crazy" that take it too far- cross a boundary- so you notice.  Some people are just outgoing. I don't think the initial approaching is what leads people into disordered relationships. I think it's that some people stay longer in them.

[SaltyDawg]

I think these are three big reasons for why people stay in relationships. Who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us is influenced by our family of origin and also largely sub concious. I don't think they have a large factor in who we are inititually attracted to. If someone is attractive- then they are. I think it explains why some people stay in disordered relationships.

Of the 3 reasons listed in the article, I believe that my FOO issues are the least of them.  While there is some influence on it, as I feel I wasn't loved enough and some disciplinary beatings, for the most part, I was well cared for with enough food and family activities, it was less than other kids, but it wasn't absent either.

The next reason, self-esteem, while not on the rocks, it was high either, but below average.  My parents were immigrants, I was given a name in the native tongue was masculine; however, here in the states is was feminine, and I was teased a bit for it, along with some of my cultural background.

I was only bullied once, and kick the bully's butt when he chose to fight me - no one bullied me after that.  I'm pretty much a giant 'teddy bear' as many have described me.

However, the third reason, is high on my list, I don't like being 'alone' which allowed me to allow these types into my life.

Boundaries play a part as well. If someone has emotionally healthy boundaries- they feel a sense of discomfort around a disordered person. They may go out with this person a few times but may not continue the relationships. Others may feel a sense of familiarity or ignore their own feelings and so continue it.

My lack of boundaries played a major part of it.  I had enough boundaries to end my previous BPD/NPD/+ relationship; however, I thought being idolized by my wife, was 'too good to be true' and it was - she was successful at her job, and from outward appearances everyone approved of her, my parents and friends unlike the previous BPD/NPD/+ where I was told to run.

It doesn't seem to explain why someone would approach you at a pool or a checkout person would flirt with you. Maybe you are just an approachable guy and people do that but it's the "crazy" that take it too far- cross a boundary- so you notice.  Some people are just outgoing. I don't think the initial approaching is what leads people into disordered relationships. I think it's that some people stay longer in them.

Funny you should mention this, I have another crazy woman, says she is married, wears her hair as bright pink or purple, is about 11 years older than me (usually they are younger), sending me unsolicited gifts last week along with many letters sharing way too much information.  I have shared this with my wife, and she is concerned, my wife has asked me to keep my boundaries - if this happened a year ago, I have no idea what kind of terror my wife would have inculcated on me.  I know I am very approachable, my wife is envious of it; however, I am currently maintaining good boundaries, with a stonewall with her as she is a neighbor living about 5 houses down - I am not responding to her correspondence; however, I will interact when she finds me face to face, and my wife has been present each and every time, so far.  I have no interest in this relationship, so I am hoping it will die by ignoring it.

I do have a theory, that I am 'too nice' to people, as I don't like to tell them to 'go away', so they stay, even though I don't want them to - perhaps this is related to the not being alone part - something I am working on with my therapist.


As usual, NW, thank you for your perspective and insight on the matter as I always learn something new about myself.  Thank you.

SD

[Notwendy]

Thanks- glad to help.

We have a neighbor like that as well. I don't feel she's any kind of threat. She just has poor boundaries- I think she probably acts that way with other people as well.

I think most people don't "hit" on someone else right away. It usually starts with a conversation and some more subtle but ambiguous signals that allows the person to save face if the other person isn't interested. Maybe people with poor boundaries don't send or read the signals the same way, or they over share and send the wrong signals.

Is your neighbor interested in you or not? There's no way to know for sure unless you pursue it or she does and you aren't going to. It's possible that being concerned about how your wife interprets this also influences how you do.

I understand the not wanting to hurt the neigbor's feelings. We don't either. Sometimes though, people don't pick up on the subltle hints- our own subtle boundaries - so eventually we have to be more blunt. It feels mean to do that.

[livednlearned]

Of the 3 reasons listed in the article, I believe that my FOO issues are the least of them.  While there is some influence on it, as I feel I wasn't loved enough and some disciplinary beatings, for the most part, I was well cared for with enough food and family activities, it was less than other kids, but it wasn't absent either.

In tracing it to FOO, I notice you compare your experiences to other families. But what about how it felt, your experience?

Disciplinary beatings and feeling not loved enough strikes me as quite tragic, on these insights alone.

[seekingtheway]

That was something that jumped out to me as well in terms of your FOO stuff… because there’s a big difference between having your physical needs taken care of and your emotional needs. It’s the lack of emotional attunement in our childhoods that often leads us into the other two reasons on the list… insecurity and self worth issues… though the article is presenting the idea you could have self esteem and fear of being alone regardless of your childhood experience…

[SaltyDawg]

In tracing it to FOO, I notice you compare your experiences to other families. But what about how it felt, your experience?

Disciplinary beatings and feeling not loved enough strikes me as quite tragic, on these insights alone.

LNL,

   Thanks for your response regarding FOO issues, they have been helpful to process some of the why I have been ensnared by blame shifters, a BPD trait (but not unique to BPD). 

   One of the beatings was a wooden paddle in rural Pennsylvania in a public elementary school by a teacher in the 5th grade in the late 1970's.  While it was against the law, it was generally accepted in the community which was very traditional and had some Amish presence/influence.  That one was the most memorable public humiliation in front of some of my classmates - I was grouped together with two other trouble makers who were actually at fault.

   Then there were 3 other instances that were done by my father, one of which I deserved, at the command of my mother for some stuff that I don't even remember that my brother did and my brother blamed me for something he did.  My father used an old-world (from my ethnic heritage) rug beater similar to a paddle on me.  I did resent my brother at the time for this, as it too was a false narrative where I was being blamed for my brother's behaviors and my mother was manipulated by my brother's false narrative, and I got in trouble for it - perhaps this is why I tolerated blame shifting from my pwBPD for so long (makes sense to me now), where I would not react to the blame shifted upon.  Thank you for triggering these negative memories as I am now able to process them accurately, it has allowed me to re-examine and come to a realization of some of the 'why', or an 'ah-ha moment' on how I had become so vulnerable to BPD behaviors.

   Generally I was a well behaved kid, and avoided trouble - this is likely where I got my people pleasing codependency trait from, as I wanted to avoid conflict.  For the most part this has served me well, as I generally see it as a positive trait; however, the down-side to this trait is, it also has made me vulnerable as well to being exploited by certain personality types - until I learned how to erect effective boundaries in the past year or so.

   While I don't think of myself as a victim; however, looking back on it, I was very much one, as much as I don't want to admit it.

   Thank you for triggering my memories to realize that my FOO is a little more messed up than I actually remember it.

   The issues got so bad with my brother instead of my parents putting him an institution for his severe dADHD, instead, I was sent off to boarding school for the 10th and 11th grades as my parents health insurance would only cover two weeks of my brother's in-patient mental health care, and that was already used up - while really not a thing in the US where I was raised, the UK there is a thing called "Boarding School Syndrome" that is described at https://caldaclinic.com/boarding-school-syndrome-the-childhood-trauma-of-privilege/ - while I did not experience most of the description; however the three paragraphs under the topic of "Hidden trauma and bereavement" describes my personal experience to a "T". 

Hidden trauma and bereavement

When a young child is sent to boarding school they lose their attachment figures, as well as losing their home. Some who are sent to school abroad may not even be given the opportunity to go home for holidays. Children are unable to process this loss. Severe emotional distress is often buried, usually due to a fear of being bullied or ridiculed.

Children are traumatised by the forced separation from their parents. A child must learn to live without the closeness of their parents (or nannies). It is akin to learning to live without love. But this huge loss for a child is downplayed by the parents, school, teachers, and older students; all the while the child is feeling homesick and heartbroken and is grieving. A child in this situation quickly learns to cover up their true feelings. They are told how lucky they are by their parents and teachers. And at boarding school, tears simply are not permitted.

For those who can go home for holidays, the same trauma is relived when they are sent away again. There is a repeated pattern of broken attachment and bereavement. In the confines of a structured boarding school, the emotional distress gets deeply suppressed.

Here is another article on the topic geared towards therapists:  https://brightontherapypartnership.org.uk/impact-of-boarding-school/.

   The symptom set of Boarding School Syndrome is quite similar to codependency; however, I only have very few of the listed symptoms, specifically "fear of abandonment" more like a 'fear of being alone,' but not at disordered levels like a pwBPD.  "perfectionist tendencies" as I have learned of all of the symptoms of BPD and OCPD and how they interact with each other (a topic of my next thread in the next couple of weeks), "Fear of failure"  ('Failure is not an option' in my marriage from my 'success thread').  Some of the listed symptoms that I don't have are very BPD-like in nature, scary to think being sent away could cause this.

   I would be interested in if you have any additional insight, it would be greatly appreciated.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

SeekingTheWay,

   Thank you as well for your insight as well.  Much appreciated.

SD

[livednlearned]

I would be interested in if you have any additional insight, it would be greatly appreciated.

My guess is that many of us here could (and have) described or hinted at traumatic experiences and nearly simultaneously dismissed how those experiences felt.

We used creative strategies during childhood, a time when we had limited choices. These strategies created emotional black outs or blind spots. Now they are part of us. We enter adulthood and make decisions with important intelligence gated off, by us as children.

To someone who is instinctive, like a person with BPD traits, these blind spots may feel appealing because there seems to be no need to care for this person with any genuine emotional intimacy. Everything and all can feed into their bottomless emotional needs while yours remain gated off.

[HoratioX]

My two cents:

I notice the term "codependent" gets tossed around a lot, not so much here but certainly in other places where I've read about BPD (etc.) and people who get involved with those who have it.

I'm not going to argue that doesn't happen or can't be an issue. It might even be the case most of the time. I just think sometimes it's not, and in some ways, using the term shifts some of the blame, if that's the right word, to the partner. From what I can tell, the partner is often a victim.

So, here's the thing. If you're around a lot of people, say, in your job or your social life and you're reasonably attractive -- and attraction is defined differently by different people -- you're probably going to draw some people with mental or emotional issues. That possibility might increase depending on your job or social circles.

For instance, if you work in an arts field or something involving social work or the like, you're probably going to encounter more people with mental or emotional issues simply as a matter of course.

And the thing I've noticed about women with BPD (etc.) and also read in so many posts is they are attractive. Mine certainly was, and she'd made an excellent living at one point dancing because of it. Even when she was at her worst, her physical beauty was inescapable. I used to marvel that someone who took so many medications and obviously put herself into traumatic or even risky situations nonetheless seemed to suffer no meaningful changes in the quality of her appearance (though her demeanor and such would change).

So, maybe some people attract "crazy" more than others because of something about them. Or maybe some people are just around more crazy people, and they find themselves drawn to those among them who are attractive, so it becomes more of an odds situation than one about personality or predilection.

[SaltyDawg]

My guess is that many of us here could (and have) described or hinted at traumatic experiences and nearly simultaneously dismissed how those experiences felt.

LNL,

Well, as I previously mentioned some of the traumatic experiences, it was normalized by the public school system as it was in the parental system as well.  According to Wikipedia "As of 2024, corporal punishment is still legal in private schools in every U.S. state except New Jersey, Iowa, New York and Maryland, legal in public schools in 17 states, and practiced in 12 of the states." - truly amazing - so in 'theory' as it is allowed by law, it really shouldn't be a traumatic experience; other than being a bit embarrassing - I wouldn't really cannot categorize it as traumatic for myself, even if it was memorable in a most unflattering way even though this was as close to experiencing DV as a child for me.

For me it was more emotional neglect as they had to deal with my sibling's issues, and I was put on the back burner as the 'good kid' and was carted off to a much less expensive boarding school than paying full price for a mental health institution for my sibling.

When I returned from boarding school for my senior year in public school, I was a fairly popular kid, and did well socially, went to a federal service academy with a full scholarship and had a good career and was very popular with the majority of my coworkers, clients, contractors, etc. except a couple who had issues with everyone (I wasn't the only one with issues with them), a very small percentage of the people I dealt with on a regular basis. 

We used creative strategies during childhood, a time when we had limited choices. These strategies created emotional black outs or blind spots. Now they are part of us. We enter adulthood and make decisions with important intelligence gated off, by us as children.

While I don't think I experienced emotional black outs, I seemed to have cultivated a few blind spots.

I can see how this can affect us in adulthood even though my first romantic relationships did not have the drama of the last two did with BPD women.  I am attracted to the level of intense passion love bombing offers as I had never been exposed to it before - kind of like an addiction to intense positive emotions - although I do not like the negative ones that eventually surface following the positive ones. 

With my first BPD ('98-'00) her negative emotions surfaced comparatively quickly, a matter of a few months together, and I was able to abort using natural boundaries when she cheated on me not once, but twice, and also did the recycle thing too.  Surprisingly, my first experience with a pwBPD/NPD/+ did not leave me emotionally scarred much, if at all, and I was quite happy to get rid of her as I chalked it up to being with an unhealthy 'rebound' and my friends all told me to run, and I eventually did.

However, the 2nd pwBPD was very different a BPD/OCPD combo, and she didn't show the negative emotional aspects for years (exceeded the maximum known textbook amount by several months from what I read, I thought I was 'home free' by the time we got married; however, I was gravely mistaken.  My friends all told me she was a good catch, and I fell for her, and I fell hard.  Throughout the extended love bombing phase, as I was still leary and felt something was off, as she was 'too good to be true'; however, I am a spiritual person, and I did feel she was my 'soul mate', but I was still questioning it and was an answer to my prayers and I had a previously bad experience - my gut was telling me something was off, but I didn't listen to it, I listened to my head that she was indeed the real thing, even if it felt too good to be true and my friends and family all supported this relationship too.

Even to this day, outside of my children, our therapists, and a few select friends, no-one would ever believe me if I shared with them the horrors my wife has done to me and our children.  This I found to be the most traumatic aspect, even several times more so than facing known terrorist with machine guns pointed in my direction.  Most of my codependent traits were acquired as a direct result of my wife's behaviors to me.  The top two causes for CPTSD are  1. Childhood trauma & 2. Being in a domestic violence situation - for me it was more the latter (about 80%) versus childhood trauma (about 20%).

Through individual therapy, I have been able to address the 80%; however, the 20% is a much deeper trauma that I am still contending with even though it has been identified.

To someone who is instinctive, like a person with BPD traits, these blind spots may feel appealing because there seems to be no need to care for this person with any genuine emotional intimacy. Everything and all can feed into their bottomless emotional needs while yours remain gated off.

I too feel as though I am somewhat 'instinctive', as my gut has never steered me wrong, even though my logical mind has where my logical mind (at the time before I knew anything about BPD) did gate off my own emotional needs and attempted to satiate her bottomless pit of emotional needs.  My friends and family also thought we were a good match too which has only exacerbated my situation. 

With the help of therapy, I was able to initiate boundaries, that came naturally, and I was able to shift the extremely unbalanced amount of emotional needs for each other into a much more fair transactional situationship until some reasonable amount of equality is achieved in the reciprocity department.  Now I am following my 'gut' feeling as I have come to trust it, and the positive results speak for themselves.

The only thing that did not come naturally to me, was enhancing my empathy from a normal amount to an extreme amount which is required to communicate in an exceptionally supporting and validating way for a pwBPD.  I was used to commanding with authority in my job, and had to shift to a method that was completely alien to me at the time - it was like learning a whole new way to communicate, or use a whole new language even though the words were still in the same dictionary.

This year, I have only had two make passes at me, that I previously mentioned, and I was able to keep clear boundaries on both of them, even though my pwBPD wife is concerned with one of them - she observed it = object permanence.  I did change what I share with my wife, so she can learn to trust me, when she sees other women hitting on me, I now share it.  I used to keep it a secret, even though I kept good boundaries, as my wife would lose it on me, and accuse me of all kinds of infidelity when she saw or perceived another woman hitting on me so I chose not to share it, so she would not become triggered by it, unless she observed it first hand, which she has on a handful of occasions and even then she might lose it.  In the past two years, she has made good progress here and has become 'less crazy' and more trusting of my decisions as she is now in preliminary 'remission' of her symptoms as defined by NIH articles (which are not consistent in their definitions, depending on the article I'm reading).


Once again, thanks for listening, and your opinion is valued and appreciated as it offers a different perspective that I more often than not have not thought about.

Take care with self care.

SD

[SinisterComplex]

Locked thread due to reaching post limit. Splitting off into a new thread which you can find here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358652.0