Listen to your gut

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I apologize that this is a bit long, but wanted to share a recent experience in my journey.

I had posted here back in 2017 or so as I was devastated after having been discarded by my live-in BPDexgf for the 2nd time. I had no idea about the disorder until after she had turned my whole world upside down. She lived with me over 2 years. It took me a LONG time to get over that and I have been leery of dating ever since.

I have gone on several dates the past few years but have not met any women I really feel a connection with. About 3 1/2 months ago I began talking to a very smart, charming and beautiful woman I met by accident. She lives a ways away and we had planned to meet after a few months of getting to know one another. Both of us are middle age so we were fine with taking our time.

We have done hours of video chat as well as regular phone calls. I started to pick up on some very concerning behaviors. Having ignored some serious red flags with my BPDexgf, I began making mental notes of these with this current woman so that I did not make the same mistakes of the past.

The first thing I noticed is that this gal was love-bombing me, and future-faking. She wasn't saying "love" per se, but things like "I'd have all your babies" and "I feel like I hit the lottery with you," and "I just want to run away and be with you." In my head I was thinking "you don't even know me." And she was constantly sending me selfies, seeking approval and validation, to the point where she said a few times "did you get my pictures?" before I could even respond. She is a beautiful woman and obviously wanted to be told so every day.

The love-bombing that was super strong in the beginning began to wane over the course of the 2nd month, and little criticisms and put downs started to creep into the conversations. There were backhanded compliments and her behavior was now hot and cold. All the while, she wanted to talk and take more and more of my time. When I'd try to get off the phone politely she'd say "you don't want to talk to me? Fine, BYE" and then I'd say her name because I thought she hung up.

I started to set boundaries and call her out on some of this stuff. This angered her. She had a fit where she said "I've gotta go, bye" and hung up before giving me a chance to even say goodbye. After that I told her if she did it again I would no longer talk to her, that it was rude and unacceptable.

Now, one might ask why I was still talking to this woman, but keep in mind we have laughed hysterically and had mostly good times up until the point it was changing. We had plans to meet which were thwarted by a winter storm, which in hindsight was a blessing in disguise.

When it came time to reschedule I started having 2nd thoughts. Her demeanor had become even more cold and abrasive, and the cutting comments and surly attitude increased to the point where I said to her "you have changed, you are mistreating me now and it's like you're not even the same person." This made her do an about face and suddenly she snapped back into the charming person I had first met. For a week.

Then, she went right back into the Jekyll and Hyde routine one night and so I told her I needed to get off the phone and think for a few minutes then call her back. She got real nasty and didn't want to let me hang up. Ultimately, I was able to say bye, but in less than 10 minutes I received a really insulting goodbye text which said "don't even bother calling back" and "it was nice meeting you, I hope you find what you're looking for" and other stuff. I politely said "ok, I wish you the best of luck."

The following morning I awoke to two of the longest "breakup" texts I have ever seen in my life, which, while sad and disappointing, were almost comical since I had never even met her in person. These goodbyes were like something you'd see from a 20 year relationship. Interspersed between the goodbyes and thanking me for all of the good times were all of the things I had supposedly done wrong, blaming me for everything, telling me what she was looking for in a man and how she wished I had been him but I'm not. It was like 6 full pages of texts or something. The 2nd one said "no need to respond, I will not text you again." I did not respond because I was honestly shocked to the core by all of this. From "I feel like I hit the lottery with you" to now "bye."

A few hours later, after not responding, I received another text "no last words from you?" I simply said "you didn't care to hear what I had to say before, so why would I respond now?" She followed with another long text and told me she was bawling at work she was so upset. I ignored her and did not respond further. That evening she asked via text if she could call me to "get some closure." I told her sure. She called and before I could say anything she just said "shh and listen to what I'm going to say," then proceeded to repeat all of the stuff she had already said through text, and said that she'd still be going on the trip to my town and "if we run into each other, maybe we can hug, no hard feelings." Sure, "run into each other" in a city of millions, and like you'd really still be coming? BIZARRE. And then she had to tell me that she already prayed to God that she would find a new man who was better suited for her. She was crying (almost sounded fake), and we said goodbye.

The following morning I awoke to a good morning text that was like nothing had even happened. My jaw was on the floor. I never even responded. Two days of radio silence followed until UPS showed up at my house with a gift from her, sent 2nd Day Air. This really jarred me. In a moment of weakness I thanked her via text. I am a caring person and felt bad ignoring the gift. The contents were very thoughtful. This led to more texts from her to which I was responding, sucked back in, then she disappeared in mid-conversation, as if to punish me.

The following morning I got a text from her and I decided I wanted to put an end to it and asked her "didn't we already say our goodbyes?" Then I told her, "Bye." There was no response until 6 hours later I received a link to a 7 minute video. The video was saying the exact same thing that the previous texts and phone call did, just a long-winded goodbye and how she knows there is a man out there for her, that she thought it might be me but messed it up. I did not reply and have not heard from her in several days.

While I wish I would have seen the signs earlier, I listened to my gut and did not reschedule a meeting. I feel I am doing better. I am an empath and can get caught up in and burned by these beautiful but very broken seeming women. I am thinking about going to a counselor to better understand myself and why it takes me so long to see the warning signs.

Thank you for reading.

[crushedagain]

I apologize that this is a bit long, but wanted to share a recent experience in my journey.

I had posted here back in 2017 or so as I was devastated after having been discarded by my live-in BPDexgf for the 2nd time. I had no idea about the disorder until after she had turned my whole world upside down. She lived with me over 2 years. It took me a LONG time to get over that and I have been leery of dating ever since.

I have gone on several dates the past few years but have not met any women I really feel a connection with. About 3 1/2 months ago I began talking to a very smart, charming and beautiful woman I met by accident. She lives a ways away and we had planned to meet after a few months of getting to know one another. Both of us are middle age so we were fine with taking our time.

We have done hours of video chat as well as regular phone calls. I started to pick up on some very concerning behaviors. Having ignored some serious red flags with my BPDexgf, I began making mental notes of these with this current woman so that I did not make the same mistakes of the past.

The first thing I noticed is that this gal was love-bombing me, and future-faking. She wasn't saying "love" per se, but things like "I'd have all your babies" and "I feel like I hit the lottery with you," and "I just want to run away and be with you." In my head I was thinking "you don't even know me." And she was constantly sending me selfies, seeking approval and validation, to the point where she said a few times "did you get my pictures?" before I could even respond. She is a beautiful woman and obviously wanted to be told so every day.

The love-bombing that was super strong in the beginning began to wane over the course of the 2nd month, and little criticisms and put downs started to creep into the conversations. There were backhanded compliments and her behavior was now hot and cold. All the while, she wanted to talk and take more and more of my time. When I'd try to get off the phone politely she'd say "you don't want to talk to me? Fine, BYE" and then I'd say her name because I thought she hung up.

I started to set boundaries and call her out on some of this stuff. This angered her. She had a fit where she said "I've gotta go, bye" and hung up before giving me a chance to even say goodbye. After that I told her if she did it again I would no longer talk to her, that it was rude and unacceptable.

Now, one might ask why I was still talking to this woman, but keep in mind we have laughed hysterically and had mostly good times up until the point it was changing. We had plans to meet which were thwarted by a winter storm, which in hindsight was a blessing in disguise.

When it came time to reschedule I started having 2nd thoughts. Her demeanor had become even more cold and abrasive, and the cutting comments and surly attitude increased to the point where I said to her "you have changed, you are mistreating me now and it's like you're not even the same person." This made her do an about face and suddenly she snapped back into the charming person I had first met. For a week.

Then, she went right back into the Jekyll and Hyde routine one night and so I told her I needed to get off the phone and think for a few minutes then call her back. She got real nasty and didn't want to let me hang up. Ultimately, I was able to say bye, but in less than 10 minutes I received a really insulting goodbye text which said "don't even bother calling back" and "it was nice meeting you, I hope you find what you're looking for" and other stuff. I politely said "ok, I wish you the best of luck."

The following morning I awoke to two of the longest "breakup" texts I have ever seen in my life, which, while sad and disappointing, were almost comical since I had never even met her in person. These goodbyes were like something you'd see from a 20 year relationship. Interspersed between the goodbyes and thanking me for all of the good times were all of the things I had supposedly done wrong, blaming me for everything, telling me what she was looking for in a man and how she wished I had been him but I'm not. It was like 6 full pages of texts or something. The 2nd one said "no need to respond, I will not text you again." I did not respond because I was honestly shocked to the core by all of this. From "I feel like I hit the lottery with you" to now "bye."

A few hours later, after not responding, I received another text "no last words from you?" I simply said "you didn't care to hear what I had to say before, so why would I respond now?" She followed with another long text and told me she was bawling at work she was so upset. I ignored her and did not respond further. That evening she asked via text if she could call me to "get some closure." I told her sure. She called and before I could say anything she just said "shh and listen to what I'm going to say," then proceeded to repeat all of the stuff she had already said through text, and said that she'd still be going on the trip to my town and "if we run into each other, maybe we can hug, no hard feelings." Sure, "run into each other" in a city of millions, and like you'd really still be coming? BIZARRE. And then she had to tell me that she already prayed to God that she would find a new man who was better suited for her. She was crying (almost sounded fake), and we said goodbye.

The following morning I awoke to a good morning text that was like nothing had even happened. My jaw was on the floor. I never even responded. Two days of radio silence followed until UPS showed up at my house with a gift from her, sent 2nd Day Air. This really jarred me. In a moment of weakness I thanked her via text. I am a caring person and felt bad ignoring the gift. The contents were very thoughtful. This led to more texts from her to which I was responding, sucked back in, then she disappeared in mid-conversation, as if to punish me.

The following morning I got a text from her and I decided I wanted to put an end to it and asked her "didn't we already say our goodbyes?" Then I told her, "Bye." There was no response until 6 hours later I received a link to a 7 minute video. The video was saying the exact same thing that the previous texts and phone call did, just a long-winded goodbye and how she knows there is a man out there for her, that she thought it might be me but messed it up. I did not reply and have not heard from her in several days.

While I wish I would have seen the signs earlier, I listened to my gut and did not reschedule a meeting. I feel I am doing better. I am an empath and can get caught up in and burned by these beautiful but very broken seeming women. I am thinking about going to a counselor to better understand myself and why it takes me so long to see the warning signs.

Thank you for reading.

[SaltyDawg]

CrushedAgain,

   Welcome back.  Thank you for sharing your stories.  I am on my 2nd BPD relationship myself, the first one was a low functioning one, but mixed with NPD, I was able to recognize the signs, and left after the 2nd time she cheated on me.  However, my current one is with my first wife, who is very high-functioning, very loyal, and is likely mixed with a different PD, OCPD which masks the BPD quite well, except when she is triggered, and then all hell breaks loose.

   I find it amazing, now that I can recognize the signs, how predictable the behaviors are, once you look at it through a borderline lens.  I've been working with my own therapist on developing CRAYDAR (Crazy RADAR) where, like you, I can now detect crazy with my gut feeling.

   I also am working with my therapist, on figuring out why I attract Crazy, and I am attracted to Crazy.

   I'd say consider yourself lucky, that you have dodged a bullet, this time around, like I did with my first BPD relationship; however, I wasn't so lucky on the 2nd, as it was much more subtle, and she hid it well for the first 2 years and 5 months of our relationship.  I was obliviously naive, way too nice, and non-confrontational which seems to attract BPD personalities, much like a flame draws moths at night.

   Keep working on recognizing these symptoms, the flags and act and react accordingly.

   In any event, with all of this stress, be kind to yourself, and do some self-care.

   Take care.

SD

[crushedagain]

Thank you, Salty Dawg. I don't understand why, despite all of the red flags, I still forge ahead with these types, and why my brain in spite of KNOWING she's bad, still craves her like a drug.

I do not know what is wrong with this woman because I am not a psychiatrist, but from everything I can tell she has hallmarks of NPD and BPD. No matter what, because of the excruciating pain my BPDexgf caused in my past relationship, I should be running for the hills. Instead, I am left craving more contact. Strange.

[once removed]

I don't understand why, despite all of the red flags, I still forge ahead with these types

because (and this is, in part, why) learning about so called red flags wont teach you very much about navigating the dating world after a dysfunctional relationship.

im a heterosexual man. i have gone my entire life avoiding dating men. looking for things to avoid has never gotten me any closer to the loving relationship with a woman that i want.

the key to successfully navigating the dating world is to know what to look for. to know what you want (and certainly what you dont) in a partner. and then to become the man that can confidently go out there, and attract it.

if you approach dating from a wounded or timid (high alert) place, you wont connect with emotionally available adults. you will connect with other wounded or timid adults. if you are confident in who you are, and what you want, you will naturally filter out what you dont.

I still forge ahead with these types

can get caught up in and burned by these beautiful but very broken seeming women. I am thinking about going to a counselor to better understand myself

when it comes to who and what we are attracted to, and who is attracted to us, you could be george clooney, and attract all sorts of women. ultimately, the people that we gravitate to and connect with, are the people/connection we are seeking, on an emotional level.

if you have found yourself in this position multiple times, its important to understand, be it consciously, subconsciously, or unconsciously, it is what you are seeking. it may be your relationship model, or your relationship picker. obviously, there is something there that you gravitate to. when you find it (therapy and counseling can help, as can exploring it here), it can be very freeing. thats why, after weve healed the wounds some from the breakups that brought us here, its important to really sit and get honest with ourselves about what we learned, who we are, who we want to be, and who we want to be with. 

[boundriesrus]

I am very sorry you are going thru all this. your story reminds me of portions of my own with my wife. I missed all the red flags in the beginning of our relationship due to the regular things, nice guy syndrome, I am an empath, non- confrontational generally, a caretaker and a bit of push over. I didn't even know what BPD was until a friend of my wife's (who is a therapist) told me about it when I was describing one of my business partners (whose husband happened to be NPD/ASPD, so it makes perfect sense now) and she told me what it was, and that I needed to get out of the partnership immediately, that therapists don't like treating that disorder for the many reasons you can read online. It's a known stigma obviously. It is also a horrible disorder and wish that people wouldn't suffer from it. But there is nothing you can do as a person to help them, we only end up enabling.

My wife back in July of last year, did the exact same thing as your spouse, with the about face actions. She was becoming more and more hostile around me, making small insults, or getting angry/crying when I told her I wanted to work out by myself and have some me time (got diagnosed high blood pressure, so decided to loose weight...from what I'm now finding out from undiagnosed/untreated PTSD from a few things going on in life). Once I started putting boundries in place, she started pushing back even harder, until I told her this wasn't working for me and didn't see us working out (mind you 2 months previous she told me she didn't think we were going to make it to our 15 year anniversary, then went radio silent for the next day.Also mind you I was sitting right next to her, and she ignored me completely). She then told me she was committed to this relationship. She asked what she was doing wrong. I responded back stating we needed to get into marriage therapy (which she had been asking for a year or so previous, I agreed and told her to find someone she felt comfortable enough with, but never follow up). The only thing I told her was I was worried she was starting to turn into her mother. That was it. All of a sudden, LIKE A SWITCH GOT FLIPPED (literally that quickly) she started extremely love bombing me, giving me tons of space, but also doubling down on wanting more physical affection, multiple texts through the day stating her love for me, now she helps with dishes, no bad comments, over thanks me for everything, finally got a job, helps with everything she can around the house (for the most part) and has not had an episode in the better part of a few months (minus her crying and pushing hard to have family photos done this year, when we are completely broke and all credit cards maxed out (in partial because of her need for spending and buying people presents...because its her love language...fml). So yeah...I get it. Best advice for you, drop it like a bad habit and move on with life. Seems cold, but honestly they are going to use your "nice" emotions against you, like they have from day 1. Be firm in your decisions. It will suck and be one of the hardest things in your life u have to do. You can do it.

[crushedagain]

Thank you for the comments. I am done with her. The hot and cold is too much, and the red flags are worse than with my BPDexgf and we are still really early on. She seems like a textbook NPD more than BPD, but I'm not a doctor. Scary, in a way. It's like she has every symptom, because I have observed all:

    1) grandiosity and self-importance
    2) fantasies of success, perfection, or power
    3) a strong conviction of being special and unique
    4) a need for admiration and praise
    5) entitlement
    6) a pattern of exploiting others for personal gain
    7) low empathy
    8) envy, jealousy, and distrust
    9) arrogance, haughtiness, and scorn

I have witnessed every one of these at one time or another, and many on a daily basis. She has also shared details of her broken relationships with other people (family, friends and romantic partners) with a complete lack of self awareness to where I can understand that she is perhaps in the wrong and not the other person. One such case would be her ex-husband who she constantly talks badly about, and who she told me refers to her as a narcissist to anybody he talks to.

This is all so heartbreaking and sad to me. I really liked this woman to start with, and had great hopes. But slowly, her mask started to disappear and what I see now is almost unrecognizable as compared to what I first saw. But the last video was sweet, kind and convincing. I am hurting.

[kells76]

I am done with her. The hot and cold is too much, and the red flags are worse than with my BPDexgf and we are still really early on.

Do you have any concerns about ending the relationship -- staying strong "all out" and not dabbling with "a little bit in"? Any concerns of what it'd be like for you if she tries to keep contacting you?

This is all so heartbreaking and sad to me. I really liked this woman to start with, and had great hopes. But slowly, her mask started to disappear and what I see now is almost unrecognizable as compared to what I first saw. But the last video was sweet, kind and convincing. I am hurting.

It is heartbreaking. You want healthy connection after being hurt. She doesn't have insight into her self-destructive behaviors. It's tragic for both of you.

I think your idea to see a counselor is a really good one. Like once removed brought up:

if you have found yourself in this position multiple times, its important to understand, be it consciously, subconsciously, or unconsciously, it is what you are seeking. it may be your relationship model, or your relationship picker. obviously, there is something there that you gravitate to. when you find it (therapy and counseling can help, as can exploring it here), it can be very freeing. thats why, after weve healed the wounds some from the breakups that brought us here, its important to really sit and get honest with ourselves about what we learned, who we are, who we want to be, and who we want to be with. 

I've been attracted to wounded men since age ~19 or so. So what I get to ask myself is: what is it about me that is drawn to them (not "why do they keep chasing me")? Neither my H nor I have a PD, but both our mothers had BPD traits and behaviors in the past. That's hugely impactful on a growing child's sense of "what should I be attracted to in a relationship, what is normal". It calibrates our "relationship picker".

What do you think?

[crushedagain]

Do you have any concerns about ending the relationship -- staying strong "all out" and not dabbling with "a little bit in"? Any concerns of what it'd be like for you if she tries to keep contacting you?

It is heartbreaking. You want healthy connection after being hurt. She doesn't have insight into her self-destructive behaviors. It's tragic for both of you.

What do you think?

I think it is over with. This woman devalued and discarded me and I am left with a crushed ego and heartache. That's all I have. I had no words to reply to her latest video because I am speechless, stunned, just numb. I basically just disappeared after she sent it to me.

[Skip]

This is all so heartbreaking and sad to me.

At 35,000 feet one can say that most people coming out of a BPD relationship (speaking of the reason you came here in 2017) have their own relationship skills problems and often perspective problems- some from the failed relationship, some from life in general.

Dating is a process. Most relationships self-implode in the first 90 days. Dating is a numbers game - you don't want to narrow in too quickly with anyone. And if we are in the game we are going to take some hits. Relationships that start at long distance are high risk because you only see a curated version of someone and there is usually an element of fantasy that often topples as reality comes into focus.

And then there is your side of recovery and finding yourself again. That takes some trial and error.

And there is the age old, "timing was not right" (one of the hardest things to understand, but it is a real thing).

Do I sound like a mom?  

I say this only to encourage you to see this as part of the process of finding someone to share your life with. It is the slog and the up/down process most of us go through. It's a bit of a beating.

I really liked this woman to start with, and had great hopes.

Hope springs eternal in every human breast.  Hold on to those hopes... the game is not over

But the last video was sweet, kind and convincing. I am hurting.

You don't have to cut and run. You can let this play out a bit more. She lives a long way off. More clarity will set in.

But you can't ever go back to the old dream. Be honest with yourself. Things are different now. The drama was over the top and more than a 90 day relationship should ever have.  And you have yet to be face to face. More reality lies ahead.

Be more active in the dating pool. It's part of the process. You don't need to be "committed".

This is all so heartbreaking and sad to me.

I'm sorry this is so painful. I'm sure its also pulling up some of the pain from your last relationship. That's hard.

[crushedagain]

Thank you, Skip, you are absolutely right in everything you say.

[crushedagain]

I dodged a bullet, everybody. I saw her on social media this morning posting very revealing photos under "milfs." This is a woman who is younger than me and told me she had never so much as dated a man younger than her, told me she always waited 3 months to sleep with a guy, etc. What I saw this morning has laid bare her lies. That's all I needed to know to move on. It shocked me to the core, but was necessary.

[Skip]

Ouch.

[crushedagain]

Ouch.

I know. I realize that probably nothing she ever said was the truth. This basically goes against everything she ever purported to be. This woman reads the bible daily, etc.

[Skip]

You saw the curated version of her.

This is who she wants to be or maybe who she thinks you (or others) want her to be.

We all do this to an extent. CBT is based on it. Success coaches say "fake it until you make it".

It's just that having never met and being limited to zoom sets the stage for extreme makeover. The alcoholic can be sober. The uneducated can be schooled. The short can be tall.   

Dating. Lot's of hits.

So, why have you not been more active dating?  How did you happen on to this women? What's going on with you?

[crushedagain]

You saw the curated version of her.

This is who she wants to be or maybe who she thinks you (or others) want her to be.

We all do this to an extent. CBT is based on it. Success coaches say "fake it until you make it".

It's just that having never met and being limited to zoom sets the stage for extreme makeover. The alcoholic can be sober. The uneducated can be schooled. The short can be tall.   

Dating. Lot's of hits.

So, why have you not been more active dating?  How did you happen on to this women? What's going on with you?

We started chatting about food and music on a Youtube about a year ago. It had nothing to do with dating. She had just gone through a recent breakup. We finally decided to reach out into the real, and began talking on the phone 3 months ago.

I have not been dating a whole lot because I don't do dating apps. I have been out on dates and things over the years, but only with women I meet in real life. I have not found anybody I am really attracted to both physically and mentally. I thought this woman was something she was not. Like you said, it was a curated version. What I see now is the exact OPPOSITE of what I like, which is scary.

[Skip]

Dating apps are kind of a requirement these days. Like Amazon is for shopping.

And like amazon, you have to shop very carefully. There are diamonds and trouble makers and married folks and everything between all mixed together. That said, when I was dating I met some really awesome women. I also had a bunch of coffee dates. Some went further - a bunch lasted 30 minutes and I never looked back (or they never looked back).

The thing that helped me was that I took some time and defined what I was looking for in a person and a relationship - priority on intrinsic things first, practicality on external things. I had to look at who I was first to even begin that process. I didn't get caught up with red flags other than the obvious - married, recently divorced/broken up, obvious employment or financial issues, family problems.

Meeting a lot of people is healthy. It helped me shed some of the bad habits I developed in my BPD relationship. I might liken it to a comedian honing his act. You get a perspective in what value people see in you (and what is not attractive, too).

I had fun. It was a chore at times. I had a few not so great experiences - but I just put them behind and soldiered on.

[SaltyDawg]

CrushedAgain,

   I will comment on your posts first.  Skip, I will get around to answering your question in a follow-up post, I am nearly out of time so it might not be today.

Thank you, Salty Dawg. I don't understand why, despite all of the red flags, I still forge ahead with these types, and why my brain in spite of KNOWING she's bad, still craves her like a drug.

I do not know what is wrong with this woman because I am not a psychiatrist, but from everything I can tell she has hallmarks of NPD and BPD. No matter what, because of the excruciating pain my BPDexgf caused in my past relationship, I should be running for the hills. Instead, I am left craving more contact. Strange.

I've been in two romantic relationships with BPD, the first one, short lived, I ended it when she cheated on me in 2000.  I was with a woman who apparently had BPD, NPD, and other mental health issue traits - at the time I had no clue as to what she was exhibiting, as I was quite naive and definitely too nice at the time.  Over a year after we broke up, she wound up on the front page of the largest newspaper in the state, showcasing some of her mental health issues, more on this on your followup post.

Speaking of the 'craving her like a drug' analogy that you used, please look up 'trauma bonding' where you become addicted to a negative personality that holds your personality hostage - it is similar to Stockholm Syndrome but different.  Let me know if you need some links to this.

Thank you for the comments. I am done with her. The hot and cold is too much, and the red flags are worse than with my BPDexgf and we are still really early on. She seems like a textbook NPD more than BPD, but I'm not a doctor. Scary, in a way. It's like she has every symptom, because I have observed all:

    1) grandiosity and self-importance
    2) fantasies of success, perfection, or power
    3) a strong conviction of being special and unique
    4) a need for admiration and praise
    5) entitlement
    6) a pattern of exploiting others for personal gain
    7) low empathy
    8) envy, jealousy, and distrust
    9) arrogance, haughtiness, and scorn

I have witnessed every one of these at one time or another, and many on a daily basis. She has also shared details of her broken relationships with other people (family, friends and romantic partners) with a complete lack of self awareness to where I can understand that she is perhaps in the wrong and not the other person. One such case would be her ex-husband who she constantly talks badly about, and who she told me refers to her as a narcissist to anybody he talks to.

This is all so heartbreaking and sad to me. I really liked this woman to start with, and had great hopes. But slowly, her mask started to disappear and what I see now is almost unrecognizable as compared to what I first saw. But the last video was sweet, kind and convincing. I am hurting.

This definitely sounds like NPD; however, we cannot diagnose; however, I will use an analogy of a duck...  If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, swims like a duck, eats like duck, lays eggs like a duck, smells like a duck, waddles like a duck, it does not take a zoologist to tell you that it is a duck.  To me, anyone who exhibits 100% of the symptoms in the DSM 5, to me meets the designation is appropriate, even though technically we are not the licensed professional (the zoologist in the analogy) who is qualified to make this assessment.

Just like in any profession, especially the mental health profession, as many of these professionals are dealing with their own mental health issues (I personally estimate around 85%), it is prudent to become an expert in the area that adversely affects you, as it is helpful to be able to push back on these professionals and ask pointed questions to help you better understand what is going on.

I dodged a bullet, everybody. I saw her on social media this morning posting very revealing photos under "milfs." This is a woman who is younger than me and told me she had never so much as dated a man younger than her, told me she always waited 3 months to sleep with a guy, etc. What I saw this morning has laid bare her lies. That's all I needed to know to move on. It shocked me to the core, but was necessary.

That must have been very painful for you to discover.  She has revealed her true colors to you.  I agree with your assessment of the situation about moving on.  However, please do some self-care, which can include therapy, so you can process this in a healthy way, with healthy coping mechanisms to full your cup.

I know. I realize that probably nothing she ever said was the truth. This basically goes against everything she ever purported to be. This woman reads the bible daily, etc.

My BPD wife reads daily devotionals which include verses from the Bible, and has a much stronger moral compass that the uBPD/uNPD/+exgf ever had.  So, when you re-enter the dating scene, take time to learn what you want, and also to recognize red-flags.  I will post in the next 36 hours a response to Skip on this very topic, on why "I attract Crazy".

We started chatting about food and music on a Youtube about a year ago. It had nothing to do with dating. She had just gone through a recent breakup. We finally decided to reach out into the real, and began talking on the phone 3 months ago.

I have not been dating a whole lot because I don't do dating apps. I have been out on dates and things over the years, but only with women I meet in real life. I have not found anybody I am really attracted to both physically and mentally. I thought this woman was something she was not. Like you said, it was a curated version. What I see now is the exact OPPOSITE of what I like, which is scary.

I do like the concept of a 'curated version', and will speak more of this tomorrow.  I agree with Skip with his opinion on dating apps, which is a powerful tool, and can be very useful, but also detrimental for the predatory types that hang out on those apps.

Take care.

SD

Until then, take care.

SD

[crushedagain]

CrushedAgain,

   I will comment on your posts first.  Skip, I will get around to answering your question in a follow-up post, I am nearly out of time so it might not be today.

I've been in two romantic relationships with BPD, the first one, short lived, I ended it when she cheated on me in 2000.  I was with a woman who apparently had BPD, NPD, and other mental health issue traits - at the time I had no clue as to what she was exhibiting, as I was quite naive and definitely too nice at the time.  Over a year after we broke up, she wound up on the front page of the largest newspaper in the state, showcasing some of her mental health issues, more on this on your followup post.

Speaking of the 'craving her like a drug' analogy that you used, please look up 'trauma bonding' where you become addicted to a negative personality that holds your personality hostage - it is similar to Stockholm Syndrome but different.  Let me know if you need some links to this.


This definitely sounds like NPD; however, we cannot diagnose; however, I will use an analogy of a duck...  If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, swims like a duck, eats like duck, lays eggs like a duck, smells like a duck, waddles like a duck, it does not take a zoologist to tell you that it is a duck.  To me, anyone who exhibits 100% of the symptoms in the DSM 5, to me meets the designation is appropriate, even though technically we are not the licensed professional (the zoologist in the analogy) who is qualified to make this assessment.

Just like in any profession, especially the mental health profession, as many of these professionals are dealing with their own mental health issues (I personally estimate around 85%), it is prudent to become an expert in the area that adversely affects you, as it is helpful to be able to push back on these professionals and ask pointed questions to help you better understand what is going on.


That must have been very painful for you to discover.  She has revealed her true colors to you.  I agree with your assessment of the situation about moving on.  However, please do some self-care, which can include therapy, so you can process this in a healthy way, with healthy coping mechanisms to full your cup.


My BPD wife reads daily devotionals which include verses from the Bible, and has a much stronger moral compass that the uBPD/uNPD/+exgf ever had.  So, when you re-enter the dating scene, take time to learn what you want, and also to recognize red-flags.  I will post in the next 36 hours a response to Skip on this very topic, on why "I attract Crazy".


I do like the concept of a 'curated version', and will speak more of this tomorrow.  I agree with Skip with his opinion on dating apps, which is a powerful tool, and can be very useful, but also detrimental for the predatory types that hang out on those apps.

Take care.

SD

Until then, take care.

SD

Thank you so much for the thoughtful post, SaltyDawg. That must have been a real shock to see your ex on the cover of the paper. I mean, WOW!

I will definitely look up and read about "trauma bonding." I need to learn a lot more about what I just went through. This woman called me every day and we talked for HOURS. She dominated my life. It was exhausting, and I found myself trying to get off the phone at times and it would anger her. Only when she was ready to hang up was it ok.

Yes, she has exhibited every single symptom of NPD, but it was harder to detect in the beginning because of her love-bombing. She is definitely different than my BPDexgf, however she shares the fear of abandonment/possessiveness/jealousy thing. For whatever reason it seems all the women I end up dating get this way about me, and try to ward off other women. I assure them I only have eyes for them but it never matters.

And yes, it was extremely painful to discover the pictures of her, especially since she had taken them for me. They weren't nudes, but still. She ended up taking the post down. The interesting thing about this is that she has no idea I am watching that account and can see what she's saying. She mistakenly told me one day about talking to some people online about long distance relationships, and I asked her what site then ended up seeing her there. She is a social media person, I am not. In fact, I still have never looked up any of her Facebook, Instagram, etc. accounts. Never cared to see what she was doing there. I don't have them.

I hadn't gone back to this particular one until after she discarded me and I started watching what she might say, wondering how somebody could go from attraction level 10 to 0 in like 5 minutes. What's sad is that most of the initial posts were talking about missing me, and how she made a mistake and asking people how she could get me back.

But now it seems as if she has turned the corner and is going start the smear campaign, like she has done to all of her exes. Now she's posting negative things about me even though I was nothing but nice to her. It's a total head trip. I like that I can see it because it's helping me move on.

I have lost almost all attraction for her now. She is a beautiful face but a hideous person. She discarded me like a piece of trash after insulting me. Where at first I was so hurt and stunned I felt like reaching out for more answers (I didn't), now I am absolutely thrilled I never did. I only wish I would have cut off contact much sooner.

Further, the fact that she so quickly was online trying to drum up as much attention from as many guys as possible has repulsed me to the core, especially when trolling for younger men after she lied and said she preferred older men. This is the very opposite of what I look for in a woman.

[Skip]

I encourage everyone to be very careful in a situation like this to not cast yourself as a the victim.

Why?

Because laying the blame on the other person or the situation, generality means we don't learn the life lesson we need to learn - we just get wounded and move forward fearful of becoming a victim again. There is something to learn here for life going forward.

Clearly there are cases of victimization on this site, but this case doesn't sound like it. This doesn't have the characteristics of Stockholm Syndrome.  And its not clear that this person has NPD (clinical significant handicap) or is a person in crisis or just a person with an ENTJ personality style or similar (Myers Briggs personalty scale) - it's hard to say.

The elephant in the room: what really stands out is a) this was a rebound relationship (very clear) and b) this was a Internet relationship - the parties never saw each other in the flesh or functioning in their environment (very clear).

  Rebound relationship.

  Internet relationship.  

The failure rate on rebound relationships is legend. The failure rate on relationships born on the Internet is also legend.

In rebound relations, the rebounder is often dealing with unfinished business, sometimes tangible, sometimes mental.emotion,. sometimes both. It not unusual, example, for the rebounder to try to replace what was the lost, quickly. They could be longing for the other partners "I love you" and as a crutch, try to substitute the rebound partner into providing that. Or maybe they have felt unloved and are trying to show themselves they are lovable by encouraging the rebound partner to be loving. This is common human behavior and a phase many people go through when a relationship (or maybe 2 relationship end badly). It's life. It's out there. You will encounter it again. It's a situation to avoid.

Internet born relationships often emerge because, even with all the disadvantageous of a long distance relationship, long distance is favorable over the complexities of a local relationship. There can be lots of reasons for this. I remember a women contacting me through a dating site and we communicated a bit (I thought she was local). She was interesting, attractive, warm. But she was also paralyzed and in a wheelchair, couldn't leave the house, lived with her sister whole was a full-time caretaker (bathing her etc.). I could tell any of this from emails, phone calls, pictures. There have been stories here where the it turned out the person was married and living with husband and kids. I remember one here that was on house arrest with an ankle bracelet. Addictions, too. This is a dangerous arena to play in.

To me, anyone who exhibits 100% of the symptoms in the DSM 5, to me meets the designation is appropriate...

I'd be careful ever using the anas platyrhynchos (duck) diagnostic method.  . It could be any number of things (Histrionic Personality Disorder).

For our purposes, assigning a Junguian personality type or a DSM diagnosis only has value for us in selecting effective tools to communicate with a person (wife, son), to understand the long term prognosis of the relationship (dating, marriage), and helping a person get care.

If our date is on a MILF website or boiled our pet rabbit... the message to us is clear enough.

When we do try to label it, we need to consider. The DSM comittee warns of the dangers of using the DSM as a cookbook. We should use it, just very carefully. It's important to not to lose perspective.

Complicating Factors When we encounter high conflict or destructive relationship behaviors it is important for us to know that the problems can be caused by a broad range of things that look a lot a like:

    immaturity,
    short term mental illness (e.g., depression),
    substance induced illness (e.g., alcoholism),
    a mood disorder (e.g., bipolar),
    an anxiety disorder (e.g., PTSD),
    a personality disorder (e.g., BPD, NPD, 8 others),
    a neurodevelopmental disorder (e.g., ADHD, Aspergers), or
    any combination of the above (i.e., co-morbidity).

How often is "any combination of the above?"   In an NIH study of 34,653 people*, of those that had clinical BPD,

    74% also had another personalty disorder,
    75% also had a mood disorder, and
    74% also had an anxiety disorder.

Just like in any profession, especially the mental health profession, as many of these professionals are dealing with their own mental health issues (I personally estimate around 85%)

That may be high. Studies peg the number to be 32% have, or "have had" a mental illness.

The prevalence estimate in the general population that about 20% are affected by mental disorders during a given year. This estimate comes from two epidemiologic surveys: the Epidemiologic Catchment Area (ECA) study of the early 1980s and the National Comorbidity Survey (NCS) of the early 1990s.

28 to 30% of the population have either a mental or addictive disorder (Regier et al., 1993b; Kessler et al., 1998). In general, 20% of the adult U.S. population have a mental disorder alone (in 1 year); 3% have both mental and addictive disorders; and 6% have addictive disorders alone.

[crushedagain]

Skip,

Once again, you hit the nail on the head.

I am not a victim here, and I don't want to take on a victim mindset and wallow in a pity party. You're absolutely correct. In fact, it raises an interesting question of "could somebody ever even be a victim if they have not met a person in the flesh?" This whole thing is bizarre, when I step back and think about it.

I agree with you on the "internet relationship" thing, though the past 3 months were exclusively phone chat and video chat. That made it more real for me, but still not "real."

I think the most important thing for me moving forward is to just be more resilient when getting rejected. It's an ego blow but it's not personal. I think I took it too hard with my BPDexgf, and then when feeling rejected again it brought up those old memories.

I need to date more women, like you said. Not focus on one and get my hopes up. It was the wrong way.

[Augustine]

The prevalence estimate in the general population that about 20% are affected by mental disorders during a given year. This estimate comes from two epidemiologic surveys: the Epidemiologic Catchment Area (ECA) study of the early 1980s and the National Comorbidity Survey (NCS) of the early 1990s.

28 to 30% of the population have either a mental or addictive disorder (Regier et al., 1993b; Kessler et al., 1998). In general, 20% of the adult U.S. population have a mental disorder alone (in 1 year); 3% have both mental and addictive disorders; and 6% have addictive disorders alone.

Not to be a gad fly, but these statistics are very old, and don’t encompass two generational cohorts.

Two generational cohorts not noted for their exemplary levels of conscientiousness, or agreeableness, but have spearheaded many firsts in terms of neuroticism, and narcissism.

[Skip]

  Augustine

Those numbers were used by the DSM 5.0 authors (2013) and they are consistent with more recent, albeit smaller studies.

... but have spearheaded many firsts in terms of neuroticism, and narcissism.

And my understanding is that neuroticism, and narcissism are fundamental personality traits - not mental illnesses.

But all that aside:

• have you read something that suggests the mental illness and addiction numbers are higher than 27%? That would be good to share.
• Are you disputing the point that we all are navigating a world with a significant number of mentally compromised people in it and as such we need skills (total avoidance is impractical)?

And interesting aside. The DSM has taken criticism for the 27% number as being too high. In other words, the DSM is seen by some as too liberal in it's labeling of mental illnesses. The argument being that should all this stuff be labeled as abnormal if so many people exhibit it?  The thinking is akin to something saying if 50% of the population had abnormally huge noses, is it correct to say they are huge and abnormal if 50% of people have them.

Shouldn't abnormal be more like 5% or 10%?

The DSM responded by saying that the illnesses listed in the DSM do not imply that everyone who has the symptoms has a pathology nor does suggest everyone with the symptoms needs or would benefit from treatment.

Some interpreted recent studies to suggest that BPD grew from 1.6% of the population to 5.9%, but this is a misunderstanding of the numbers. I'm was in the group of "some". 1.6% of the population qualified for a BPD diagnosis in 2023 (for example). 5.9% of the population will qualify for a diagnosis some time during their lifetime.

Food for thought, gadfly.  

[Skip]

I think the most important thing for me moving forward is to just be more resilient when getting rejected. It's an ego blow but it's not personal.

Yes. Rejection hurts. Three months in is in that period when we are either connecting or moving on, so even a 3-month breakdown hurts. It sounds silly to tell someone in real life that we are really stung by a 3-month relationship that bottomed out - but the when hope and reality collide it hurts.

The best we can do is keep it in perspective, grieve it, get back on our feet. Don'yt let it take us down.

I think I took it too hard with my BPDexgf, and then when feeling rejected again it brought up those old memories.

I think you are really on to this point. If we don't process previous big wounds, they reoccur and pile on when we have fresh new wounds.

We have members here that take the time to process their BPD relationship failure, do the personal inventory, and change. We also have members here that mostly covered up the pain  by either stuffing it down, waiting it out,  or jumping into another relationship to cover it over. That latter group tends to have increasingly disproportionate reactions to new wounds because the prior wounds keep resurfacing and piling on.

It's really helps to process our losses, learn from them, grow from them. The processing, the relationship postmortem, the person inventory, and the enlightenment and change are things we can do together here (BPDFamily).

An interesting aside... from an evolutionary perspective, there are theories that the pain of heartaches have something to with adapting to our social structure. For some, the pain (actually not wanting to re-experience the pain) makes us change to be fit in with the social stucture. Those that don't adapt fall to the fringes.

[crushedagain]

Yes. Rejection hurts. Three months in is in that period when we are either connecting or moving on, so even a 3-month breakdown hurts. It sounds silly to tell someone in real life that we are really stung by a 3-month relationship that bottomed out - but the when hope and reality collide it hurts.

The best we can do is keep it in perspective, grieve it, get back on our feet. Don'yt let it take us down.

I think you are really on to this point. If we don't process previous big wounds, they reoccur and pile on when we have fresh new wounds.

We have members here that take the time to process their BPD relationship failure, do the personal inventory, and change. We also have members here that mostly covered up the pain  by either stuffing it down, waiting it out,  or jumping into another relationship to cover it over. That latter group tends to have increasingly disproportionate reactions to new wounds because the prior wounds keep resurfacing and piling on.

It's really helps to process our losses, learn from them, grow from them. The processing, the relationship postmortem, the person inventory, and the enlightenment and change are things we can do together here (BPDFamily).

An interesting aside... from an evolutionary perspective, there are theories that the pain of heartaches have something to with adapting to our social structure. For some, the pain (actually not wanting to re-experience the pain) makes us change to be fit in with the social stucture. Those that don't adapt fall to the fringes.

I thought I had processed the pain and loss of my BPDexgf. I allowed myself to feel the pain instead of trying to "stuff it down," as you say. I did not run out there and try to find somebody new. I am a very introspective person, and I try to work on myself physically and emotionally. I probably have more work to do spiritually, to be honest. I am far from perfect.

But as I read your comment I wonder if I was under some sort of delusion that I had healed, and in fact I have not. That's a real mind trip considering how long it has been. In all honesty, though, rejection has always been difficult to me. I am prone to anxiety and rumination. I am very hard on myself, and somewhat of a perfectionist. When things don't go as I had hoped, I can become very disappointed. Maybe it's my expectations I need to better manage. I don't know.

Thank you for the perspectives.

 

[zondolit]

crushedagain,

In your first post, you write about asking for a break for a few minutes to think before calling her back, and at another point you describe a decision to not respond to her message. These seem like healthy steps--that also end up helping reveal who she really is. Are these things you have learned since your previous relationship?

zondolit

[crushedagain]

crushedagain,

In your first post, you write about asking for a break for a few minutes to think before calling her back, and at another point you describe a decision to not respond to her message. These seem like healthy steps--that also end up helping reveal who she really is. Are these things you have learned since your previous relationship?

zondolit

Thank you for the reply. I hope they are healthy steps. I'll have to be honest, I was shocked by what I found out about her after the fact. Sad and disappointing.

I feel like I am great at talking with women until there are problems. Then, I shut down. If they start pitching a fit I go silent. I am at a loss for words. I don't like to fight and so I sometimes sit there, not saying a thing.

I remember my BPDexgf one time grabbed my arm in a fit of rage and dug her nails into it and screamed "say something!!" and all I could muster was "do not scratch me like that. If you do it again I am going to ask you to leave." It was my house.

With this gal, I never ended up responding to that goodbye video and have not heard from her since. It ended with a big bang of her basically blowing up my phone with insults mixed with "I'll miss you" and then thanking me for my time.

So, to answer your question, I'm not sure. I just know I try to set boundaries and make the best decisions I can in the moment, which is not always easy. She was trying to drag me into an argument and I did not want it.

[crushedagain]

I need to learn better communication skills, and to form deeper emotional connections with women. I feel like I am struggling mightily with that in my relationships. When I look at my part in things, I think women have sometimes felt unloved because I get lost in my head and distant. I go into my own world.

When I look back upon what happened with this gal, I can tell she was acting in that way because she felt hurt by something (I don't exactly know) and wanted me to show I really liked her. Instead, I did the opposite. I walled up. I wish I would have just genuinely told her after her very first angry text "hey, I really enjoy you, I can tell you're hurting and I'd like to talk to you when you are feeling a bit better, if you're interested." That would have prevented all the carnage and maybe led to a quick resolution that night. I don't know.

[crushedagain]

I should add to the above that things ultimately worked out for the best - I was able to see who she really was. While I think it's fine if she wants to go trolling for men online with pics or whatever, that's not the type of partner I'm looking for.

I was more thinking that the way I handle conflict needs improvement. Shutting down is not a very effective communication style, unless one is looking to repel somebody. I think that's an issue of mine.

[Skip]

I was more thinking that the way I handle conflict needs improvement. Shutting down is not a very effective communication style, unless one is looking to repel somebody. I think that's an issue of mine.

People want to be heard when the confront us and one good response is to let them get it out and ask questions and confirm what you are hearing them say without judgement.

Then suggest that you need a day to think about all that has been said. Then come back, confirm what your heard again, and then discuss her concerns and what you think you need to say.

It takes discipline, but it works.

People struggle with "walled up" for a lot of reasons and can interpret it to mean something very different than what it actually means.

[crushedagain]

People want to be heard when the confront us and one good response is to let them get it out and ask questions and confirm what you are hearing them say without judgement.

Then suggest that you need a day to think about all that has been said. Then come back, confirm what your heard again, and then discuss her concerns and what you think you need to say.

It takes discipline, but it works.

People struggle with "walled up" for a lot of reasons and can interpret it to mean something very different than what it actually means.

Skip, I don't know why I even said "walled up." I should have just said put up walls or something. I go into a shell. When I feel I am being criticized and attacked, I listen to it and allow it to resonate deep within me. But I usually don't respond because I don't want to get into a fight and say something I'd regret. I try to temper myself when I feel my emotions brewing.

I thank you for the advice. This situation has been a learning experience for me. I am extremely surprised by how strongly I now realize I felt for a woman I never actually met in person but only did video chat and phone calls with. I was not prepared to feel such a loss after such a short period of time. I hope the feeling is brief and passes over me. It has not been easy.