Listen to your gut

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

CrushedAgain,

Thank you so much for the thoughtful post, SaltyDawg. That must have been a real shock to see your ex on the cover of the paper. I mean, WOW!

It was a shock, her mug photo reminded me of NickNolte's where she was all dishoveled, she obviously resisted; however, that was not a charge.
 

I will definitely look up and read about "trauma bonding." I need to learn a lot more about what I just went through. This woman called me every day and we talked for HOURS. She dominated my life. It was exhausting, and I found myself trying to get off the phone at times and it would anger her. Only when she was ready to hang up was it ok.

Likewise, both of my experiences were similar, and my wife still complains that I do not talk enough, even made this complaint in the past week, and we have been together for 23 years.

Yes, she has exhibited every single symptom of NPD, but it was harder to detect in the beginning because of her love-bombing. She is definitely different than my BPDexgf, however she shares the fear of abandonment/possessiveness/jealousy thing. For whatever reason it seems all the women I end up dating get this way about me, and try to ward off other women. I assure them I only have eyes for them but it never matters.

My uBPD/uNPD/+exgf was different from my current uBPD/uOCPDw I literally jumped out of the fire into the frying pan between these two women.

https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric-disorders/personality-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd

BPD & NPD are both Cluster-B PD's and these two are very similar, the book I use as my primary guidance in managing this relationship is "Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad - All but a few paragraphs in the book treat both BPD and NPD identically as far as managing these personalities go indicating how close they are.

And yes, it was extremely painful to discover the pictures of her, especially since she had taken them for me. They weren't nudes, but still. She ended up taking the post down. The interesting thing about this is that she has no idea I am watching that account and can see what she's saying. She mistakenly told me one day about talking to some people online about long distance relationships, and I asked her what site then ended up seeing her there. She is a social media person, I am not. In fact, I still have never looked up any of her Facebook, Instagram, etc. accounts. Never cared to see what she was doing there. I don't have them.

Interesting - now that you know her true colors, you can find it easier to move on, even though it was extremely hurtful to find out this information.

I hadn't gone back to this particular one until after she discarded me and I started watching what she might say, wondering how somebody could go from attraction level 10 to 0 in like 5 minutes. What's sad is that most of the initial posts were talking about missing me, and how she made a mistake and asking people how she could get me back.

But now it seems as if she has turned the corner and is going start the smear campaign, like she has done to all of her exes. Now she's posting negative things about me even though I was nothing but nice to her. It's a total head trip. I like that I can see it because it's helping me move on.

I have lost almost all attraction for her now. She is a beautiful face but a hideous person. She discarded me like a piece of trash after insulting me. Where at first I was so hurt and stunned I felt like reaching out for more answers (I didn't), now I am absolutely thrilled I never did. I only wish I would have cut off contact much sooner.

Further, the fact that she so quickly was online trying to drum up as much attention from as many guys as possible has repulsed me to the core, especially when trolling for younger men after she lied and said she preferred older men. This is the very opposite of what I look for in a woman.

This is pretty standard behavior for a BPD, the smear campaign so they don't feel as bad dumping you, as they have a lot of shame to justify in their own minds.  However, it does make it easier for you to understand, and move on.

I thought I had processed the pain and loss of my BPDexgf. I allowed myself to feel the pain instead of trying to "stuff it down," as you say. I did not run out there and try to find somebody new. I am a very introspective person, and I try to work on myself physically and emotionally. I probably have more work to do spiritually, to be honest. I am far from perfect.

But as I read your comment I wonder if I was under some sort of delusion that I had healed, and in fact I have not. That's a real mind trip considering how long it has been. In all honesty, though, rejection has always been difficult to me. I am prone to anxiety and rumination. I am very hard on myself, and somewhat of a perfectionist. When things don't go as I had hoped, I can become very disappointed. Maybe it's my expectations I need to better manage. I don't know.

I think it is good to look at yourself, to see where you had gone wrong, especially if you find the same kind of women over and over again - it wasn't until my 2nd BPD relationship did I figure out I was the issue in attracting these types (see post to Skip above).

I feel like I am great at talking with women until there are problems. Then, I shut down. If they start pitching a fit I go silent. I am at a loss for words. I don't like to fight and so I sometimes sit there, not saying a thing.

You need to figure out why you are 'non-confrontational' and avoidant.  If there is an issue, you need to have a good healthy boundary.  If you make an error, man-up and admit it.  By ignoring it, and shutting down will not have good results.

I need to learn better communication skills, and to form deeper emotional connections with women. I feel like I am struggling mightily with that in my relationships. When I look at my part in things, I think women have sometimes felt unloved because I get lost in my head and distant. I go into my own world.

When I look back upon what happened with this gal, I can tell she was acting in that way because she felt hurt by something (I don't exactly know) and wanted me to show I really liked her. Instead, I did the opposite. I walled up. I wish I would have just genuinely told her after her very first angry text "hey, I really enjoy you, I can tell you're hurting and I'd like to talk to you when you are feeling a bit better, if you're interested." That would have prevented all the carnage and maybe led to a quick resolution that night. I don't know.

I see that you are getting a lot of insight as to what is going on in your life.  The next time say exactly what you put in quotes, I think it would have done a lot of good.

I should add to the above that things ultimately worked out for the best - I was able to see who she really was. While I think it's fine if she wants to go trolling for men online with pics or whatever, that's not the type of partner I'm looking for.

I was more thinking that the way I handle conflict needs improvement. Shutting down is not a very effective communication style, unless one is looking to repel somebody. I think that's an issue of mine.

Try not to concern yourself what is in the past, if she wants to seduce a younger man on a MILF posting, let her, you know what kind of woman she is.

Do concern yourself with how you handle conflicts, and how to improve there.  Shutting down is equivalent to stonewalling, unless done in the context of gray rocking an irrational outburst, it should not be done for more than a day, and when you do do it, make sure you communicate that you are doing it to collect your thoughts and to diffuse a hot tempered argument.

Good luck in learning more, keep coming back, and do some self-care.  Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

CrushedAgain,

Thank you so much for the thoughtful post, SaltyDawg. That must have been a real shock to see your ex on the cover of the paper. I mean, WOW!

It was a shock, her mug photo reminded me of NickNolte's where she was all dishoveled, she obviously resisted; however, that was not a charge.
 

I will definitely look up and read about "trauma bonding." I need to learn a lot more about what I just went through. This woman called me every day and we talked for HOURS. She dominated my life. It was exhausting, and I found myself trying to get off the phone at times and it would anger her. Only when she was ready to hang up was it ok.

Likewise, both of my experiences were similar, and my wife still complains that I do not talk enough, even made this complaint in the past week, and we have been together for 23 years.

Yes, she has exhibited every single symptom of NPD, but it was harder to detect in the beginning because of her love-bombing. She is definitely different than my BPDexgf, however she shares the fear of abandonment/possessiveness/jealousy thing. For whatever reason it seems all the women I end up dating get this way about me, and try to ward off other women. I assure them I only have eyes for them but it never matters.

My uBPD/uNPD/+exgf was different from my current uBPD/uOCPDw I literally jumped out of the fire into the frying pan between these two women.

https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric-disorders/personality-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd

BPD & NPD are both Cluster-B PD's and these two are very similar, the book I use as my primary guidance in managing this relationship is "Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad - All but a few paragraphs in the book treat both BPD and NPD identically as far as managing these personalities go indicating how close they are.

And yes, it was extremely painful to discover the pictures of her, especially since she had taken them for me. They weren't nudes, but still. She ended up taking the post down. The interesting thing about this is that she has no idea I am watching that account and can see what she's saying. She mistakenly told me one day about talking to some people online about long distance relationships, and I asked her what site then ended up seeing her there. She is a social media person, I am not. In fact, I still have never looked up any of her Facebook, Instagram, etc. accounts. Never cared to see what she was doing there. I don't have them.

Interesting - now that you know her true colors, you can find it easier to move on, even though it was extremely hurtful to find out this information.

I hadn't gone back to this particular one until after she discarded me and I started watching what she might say, wondering how somebody could go from attraction level 10 to 0 in like 5 minutes. What's sad is that most of the initial posts were talking about missing me, and how she made a mistake and asking people how she could get me back.

But now it seems as if she has turned the corner and is going start the smear campaign, like she has done to all of her exes. Now she's posting negative things about me even though I was nothing but nice to her. It's a total head trip. I like that I can see it because it's helping me move on.

I have lost almost all attraction for her now. She is a beautiful face but a hideous person. She discarded me like a piece of trash after insulting me. Where at first I was so hurt and stunned I felt like reaching out for more answers (I didn't), now I am absolutely thrilled I never did. I only wish I would have cut off contact much sooner.

Further, the fact that she so quickly was online trying to drum up as much attention from as many guys as possible has repulsed me to the core, especially when trolling for younger men after she lied and said she preferred older men. This is the very opposite of what I look for in a woman.

This is pretty standard behavior for a BPD, the smear campaign so they don't feel as bad dumping you, as they have a lot of shame to justify in their own minds.  However, it does make it easier for you to understand, and move on.

I thought I had processed the pain and loss of my BPDexgf. I allowed myself to feel the pain instead of trying to "stuff it down," as you say. I did not run out there and try to find somebody new. I am a very introspective person, and I try to work on myself physically and emotionally. I probably have more work to do spiritually, to be honest. I am far from perfect.

But as I read your comment I wonder if I was under some sort of delusion that I had healed, and in fact I have not. That's a real mind trip considering how long it has been. In all honesty, though, rejection has always been difficult to me. I am prone to anxiety and rumination. I am very hard on myself, and somewhat of a perfectionist. When things don't go as I had hoped, I can become very disappointed. Maybe it's my expectations I need to better manage. I don't know.

I think it is good to look at yourself, to see where you had gone wrong, especially if you find the same kind of women over and over again - it wasn't until my 2nd BPD relationship did I figure out I was the issue in attracting these types (see post to Skip above).

I feel like I am great at talking with women until there are problems. Then, I shut down. If they start pitching a fit I go silent. I am at a loss for words. I don't like to fight and so I sometimes sit there, not saying a thing.

You need to figure out why you are 'non-confrontational' and avoidant.  If there is an issue, you need to have a good healthy boundary.  If you make an error, man-up and admit it.  By ignoring it, and shutting down will not have good results.

I need to learn better communication skills, and to form deeper emotional connections with women. I feel like I am struggling mightily with that in my relationships. When I look at my part in things, I think women have sometimes felt unloved because I get lost in my head and distant. I go into my own world.

When I look back upon what happened with this gal, I can tell she was acting in that way because she felt hurt by something (I don't exactly know) and wanted me to show I really liked her. Instead, I did the opposite. I walled up. I wish I would have just genuinely told her after her very first angry text "hey, I really enjoy you, I can tell you're hurting and I'd like to talk to you when you are feeling a bit better, if you're interested." That would have prevented all the carnage and maybe led to a quick resolution that night. I don't know.

I see that you are getting a lot of insight as to what is going on in your life.  The next time say exactly what you put in quotes, I think it would have done a lot of good.

I should add to the above that things ultimately worked out for the best - I was able to see who she really was. While I think it's fine if she wants to go trolling for men online with pics or whatever, that's not the type of partner I'm looking for.

I was more thinking that the way I handle conflict needs improvement. Shutting down is not a very effective communication style, unless one is looking to repel somebody. I think that's an issue of mine.

Try not to concern yourself what is in the past, if she wants to seduce a younger man on a MILF posting, let her, you know what kind of woman she is.

Do concern yourself with how you handle conflicts, and how to improve there.  Shutting down is equivalent to stonewalling, unless done in the context of gray rocking an irrational outburst, it should not be done for more than a day, and when you do do it, make sure you communicate that you are doing it to collect your thoughts and to diffuse a hot tempered argument.

Good luck in learning more, keep coming back, and do some self-care.  Take care.

SD

[SinisterComplex]

Skip, I don't know why I even said "walled up." I should have just said put up walls or something. I go into a shell. When I feel I am being criticized and attacked, I listen to it and allow it to resonate deep within me. But I usually don't respond because I don't want to get into a fight and say something I'd regret. I try to temper myself when I feel my emotions brewing.

I thank you for the advice. This situation has been a learning experience for me. I am extremely surprised by how strongly I now realize I felt for a woman I never actually met in person but only did video chat and phone calls with. I was not prepared to feel such a loss after such a short period of time. I hope the feeling is brief and passes over me. It has not been easy.

So crushed, perhaps you could use a question phrase like could you explain what you mean further for me please? When you feel emotionally aroused. The point is it serves as a cue to yourself to keep yourself in check. What do not want to do is have your emotions simmer beneath the surface because all that will do is cause more of a buildup to an explosive release which is never good and not healthy.

Also, why do you think you go into a shell? Are you willing to go further in depth on that or do you not feel comfortable elaborating? It is okay to say no my friend...just letting you know that.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[crushedagain]

CrushedAgain,

It was a shock, her mug photo reminded me of NickNolte's where she was all dishoveled, she obviously resisted; however, that was not a charge.
 

Likewise, both of my experiences were similar, and my wife still complains that I do not talk enough, even made this complaint in the past week, and we have been together for 23 years.

 

My uBPD/uNPD/+exgf was different from my current uBPD/uOCPDw I literally jumped out of the fire into the frying pan between these two women.

https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric-disorders/personality-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd

BPD & NPD are both Cluster-B PD's and these two are very similar, the book I use as my primary guidance in managing this relationship is "Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad - All but a few paragraphs in the book treat both BPD and NPD identically as far as managing these personalities go indicating how close they are.


 

Interesting - now that you know her true colors, you can find it easier to move on, even though it was extremely hurtful to find out this information.

 

This is pretty standard behavior for a BPD, the smear campaign so they don't feel as bad dumping you, as they have a lot of shame to justify in their own minds.  However, it does make it easier for you to understand, and move on.


I think it is good to look at yourself, to see where you had gone wrong, especially if you find the same kind of women over and over again - it wasn't until my 2nd BPD relationship did I figure out I was the issue in attracting these types (see post to Skip above).


You need to figure out why you are 'non-confrontational' and avoidant.  If there is an issue, you need to have a good healthy boundary.  If you make an error, man-up and admit it.  By ignoring it, and shutting down will not have good results.


I see that you are getting a lot of insight as to what is going on in your life.  The next time say exactly what you put in quotes, I think it would have done a lot of good.


Try not to concern yourself what is in the past, if she wants to seduce a younger man on a MILF posting, let her, you know what kind of woman she is.

Do concern yourself with how you handle conflicts, and how to improve there.  Shutting down is equivalent to stonewalling, unless done in the context of gray rocking an irrational outburst, it should not be done for more than a day, and when you do do it, make sure you communicate that you are doing it to collect your thoughts and to diffuse a hot tempered argument.

Good luck in learning more, keep coming back, and do some self-care.  Take care.

SD

Thank you so much for the reply, especially the bold. I have poor conflict resolution skills when it comes to romantic partners. And I do agree, I think I am actually stonewalling by default when it is not intentional per se, I just don't know what to say and I am hurting. And then I actively ignored the nice good morning text from her for two days because she had said goodbye to me before that. I am screwing it all up myself, too.

[crushedagain]

So crushed, perhaps you could use a question phrase like could you explain what you mean further for me please? When you feel emotionally aroused. The point is it serves as a cue to yourself to keep yourself in check. What do not want to do is have your emotions simmer beneath the surface because all that will do is cause more of a buildup to an explosive release which is never good and not healthy.

Also, why do you think you go into a shell? Are you willing to go further in depth on that or do you not feel comfortable elaborating? It is okay to say no my friend...just letting you know that.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Thank you. I don't explode on women, I just keep it all inside and feel tremendous pain. Then I try to do pushups and things to get it out.

I think I go into a shell because I worry I might make things even worse, and when women are expressing such disapproval I start feeling like they are going to leave. I seem to pick the ones who leave.

[crushedagain]

I am thinking of taking all of these texts and the video to a therapist where they can look at the entire exchange between us and help me understand what is going on and what my part is in it. And, also, maybe help me to understand her and where she was coming from.

It really became scary at the end. A week before it ended when she was in another of these moods I said to her "don't hurt the person who cares about you" and she said "I even want to hurt myself." I responded with "please don't hurt yourself." I don't think she meant it but it was heartbreaking regardless.

[SaltyDawg]

I am thinking of taking all of these texts and the video to a therapist where they can look at the entire exchange between us and help me understand what is going on and what my part is in it. And, also, maybe help me to understand her and where she was coming from.

I think this is a great idea.  Let us know how it went.

It really became scary at the end. A week before it ended when she was in another of these moods I said to her "don't hurt the person who cares about you" and she said "I even want to hurt myself." I responded with "please don't hurt yourself." I don't think she meant it but it was heartbreaking regardless.

If she is borderline, more than likely she did mean it, as she was telling you her truth at that moment in time.  The thing is with borderlines, when they have an episode, they will either idolize you or devalue you, and that includes their own perception of self too.  They have black/white thinking, all or nothing, with no shades of gray in between.  One of the symptoms is 'self-mutilation' otherwise known as 'self-harm' and can manifest itself in suicidal ideation as well (same symptom).

They cannot perceive the damage they are doing to you, until they return to baseline.  Some realize what they did, and are remorseful, and will profusely apologize, while others cannot see it, and cannot acknowledge they did anything wrong.  It's sad, but this is the way it is unless they become self-aware, there is little hope of them changing for the better.

Take care.

SD

[crushedagain]

Thank you, SD. I want to find out why I am choosing these women who bring me pain. I don't want to do it again.

[Skip]

Was it the words?

There was a song written by a 30-year old in the 1980s. I pondered these lyrics for years - as they describe a false belief that many of us hold. I also wondered how 30-year could know this. His song is of prolonged grieving after a relationship failure where the protanonist is holding onto pictures showing the love of the relationship .

There was nothing in the world that I ever wanted more
Than to feel you deep in my heart
There was nothing in the world that I ever wanted more
Than to never feel the breaking apart
My pictures of you

Looking so long at these pictures of you
But I never held on to your heart
Looking so long for the words to be true
But always just breaking apart
My pictures of you

If only I'd thought of the right words
I could have held on to your heart
If only I'd thought of the right words
I wouldn't be breaking apart all my pictures of you

If only I'd thought of the right words...

Was it the words?

I want to find out why I am choosing these women who bring me pain. I don't want to do it again.

Is it the idealization? Mirroring? The relationship imbalance (age, looks, sexuality)? Complementarity of needs? All of it?

These things exist in all relationships, it's how couples build a bond. But people with BPD-ish traits (or BPD) push it further than most.

Why?

Because they are overcompensating for their own perceived inadequacy (not being worthy of love). They put everything in (some at great sacrifice) to make it work.

How desirable is it to find someone younger, prettier, cooler who thinks we are the hottest thing on earth and has the same interests that we do? Someone who is very in touch with their emotions and able to express (when we struggle to outwardly emote).

How can anyone resist?  

Of course when their sacrifice doesn't yield the results they hope for,  they can become very resentful that you are not doing your part.

I'm taking huge liberties to paint this "picture"... my assumptions/exmples are just to create a thoughh image. It is not a commentarty on you personaly.

[Skip]

  SaltyDawg

I split off our discussion about "Attracting Crazy". It's a good topic to expllore. Others have made this type of statement.

  message_board/index.php?topic=357641

[crushedagain]

I'm attracted to the wounded ones, because I came from a broken family. My mother was a verbally abusive alcoholic who I was always trying to put back together, with eternal hope that I could fix her. I never could. But I never stopped trying. I found a brand new bottle of vodka in her bedroom closet as I cleaned out her house after her death.

For those not raised by an alcoholic, there are extreme highs and lows. The highs are when they are not drinking, and the world seems safe and good, with a semblance of order and comfort. But then out comes Hyde, and the verbal abuse, and the entire house turns into a world of pain, and your protector is now your abuser. And you hide in your room. And you turn into yourself in shame and blame, because you see the world outside where people are happy and normal and yet you feel like death inside.

You become scared to date as an adolescent, because the risk of a beautiful young woman finding out your home is broken and your self confidence is shaken - that you might be broken too - seems too much of an emotional burden to bear. You want to avoid more pain at almost any cost. You have too much already.

So, with hormones raging, you play it safe. You never allow them to get too close. You develop these walls and hide behind them. And in my case you never let them down. You just go through life with a fear of commitment, because to allow somebody fully in is too scary because they might leave you. But in reality you are guaranteeing they leave you, not only because of who you are, but who they are.

This is about as deep as I can go. I am trying to understand who I am, and where it all went wrong.

[SaltyDawg]

I'm attracted to the wounded ones, because I came from a broken family. My mother was a verbally abusive alcoholic who I was always trying to put back together, with eternal hope that I could fix her. I never could. But I never stopped trying.

[...]

This is about as deep as I can go. I am trying to understand who I am, and where it all went wrong.

CrushedAgain,

I personally feel that this is a good start to look at your FOO (family of origin) for some of these behaviors.  I too am attracted to the 'wounded' ones - I really haven't figured out 'why'.  There were no alcoholic/drug issues when I was growing up; however, my mother was a strict disciplinarian and was more emotionally unavailable to me.  My mother was killed in an accident, and my step mother did have an alcohol issue; however, I really wasn't exposed to that.

I am wondering if you have already brought this up with your therapist, and what their opinion on the topic is?

Take care.

SD

[Skip]

My mother was a verbally abusive alcoholic who I was always trying to put back together, with eternal hope that I could fix her. I never could. But I never stopped trying.

I'm sorry this was in your upbringing. Adult children of alcoholics bare a certain burden.

I have a step grand-daughter going through this now. She is 10 and you describe her life exactly. It's heartbreaking to watch her try to rescue her mother.

It hard watching mom struggle. She has gotten sober but then is on and off.