Break Up Continued

[Brokenmind]

Link to original thread here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357338.0

SD! Seriously reading your replies have become the few bright moments in my day.

Its funny you should mention "the only person whom I can imagine being beneath her is a street person (homeless)". When I first went to her to her flat, it was a council flat, nice size but my god it was messy with hardly any furniture and holes in the walls (she raged a lot). She never worked a day in her life, habitual cannabis smoker and literally owed money everywhere. So my first thought was what you said.

When i met her I was a chartered accountant, raised in a hard working family so hearing her story of poverty, abuse, family neglect, no friends and the father of her child who abused her and left her I used that as an excuse to rescue her AND excuse her abusive behaviours.

I know what you mean about not being vulgar but I think any females reading this know women like that do exist. Plus you are right, for her sex was a tool. Example for me would be she would offer sex as a reward for good deeds whilst trying to maintain the air that she has only ever did this for me and only me in her life, I was that good! To be fair to myself I saw it for what it was from the start (but I happily ignored it just like I think this guy is doing now)

What an Analysis by the way SD!

I think your spot on with those observations on him being somewhat npd. Obviously we cant diagnose him for certain.

The thing is her rage is something she cant control, so I think you are absolutely correct in what may happen. It may last longer given the long distance but she cant control that mask for long, with me it was just under a year but thats a year seeing me everyday.

Never really rode a bike SD, but I like the sound of it, Plus I live in a leafy part of London so I have a huge park near me. I'll give it a go.

"she is living in a fantasy world - it only exists in her mind, and when there are too many things that don't match with her fantasy it is only a matter of time it will come crashing down on he r, and you will no longer be there to rescue her".

SD she always has done even with me and that was the start of the problems (idealisation stage). She met me I earn a good salary, owns his own home, never married, no kids I was her ticket out and I know she is doing it with this guy.

Right now all she is doing is dreaming about her life out there and how perfect it could all be. She is in idealisation mode which as we all know always eventually leads to devaluation.

But again I should not care (but if I'm honest I cant help but think about if they are going to be happy together, something for my next therapy session that i will work on)

"you need to try a little bit of this, and a little bit of that, until you find something that is meaningful to you, and then do it. "

Thanks SD thats exactly what I need right now.
.

[Brokenmind]

Hey AM

"very easy to build that "She's THRIVING without me, I have lost all, she has lost nothing" mentality"

Thats exactly where Iam and its really getting to me, I cant shake this thought off, hence Im going to address this with therapy.

"Leaving behind a clean profile devoid of that replacement person ever having existed. (ask me how i know this....)"

I shudder to guess AM. She has done the same for me, she deleted every trace . It is literally what the BPD is when it comes to split and how they only see you only in extremes.

It seems consistent that the start of a relationship with someone with BPD is almost the COMPLETE opposite to the end of the relationship.

I think my emotional dissonance with what happened to me is catching up slowly with my understanding of what happened to me intellectually.

I feel like its slowly gets easier (not better) to deal with as time passes. Hence why I think Im on here so much.

Hopefully you are finding this too AM.

[Brokenmind]

I knew something was going to happen today and now I have a predicament.

My ex either flew back yesterday or today. I got a text from her son. Near in mind I have spoken or heard from him for nearly 2 months now.

He texted from her phone saying it’s him and how he needs my password for my Apple ID. (He shared mine since he was little and has built up his games over 12 years on there)

I texted back if I could call. He replied just with no I just need the password.

I replied with ok and gave him the password and told him how much I’ve missed him and love him and asked him if his mum could call me.

I was distraught and upset as he just responded by telling me to wait as she is doing the dishes and nothing else. I’m not sure what to make of this.

I met him when he was just 3, I was literally his only family aside from his Mum who emotionally abused him. I was there for him through everything. I get he feels abandoned over the last year but has she poisoned him against me that much???,

So aside from being discarded by someone I raised and provided for 12 years, I have the predicament of my AppleID being easily accessed by her.

This is the reason I asked his mum to call me.

With the AppleID she has access to my files, emails and bank cards.

Help - what fo you think I should do?????

[SaltyDawg]

With the AppleID she has access to my files, emails and bank cards.

Help - what fo you think I should do?????

URGENT

Create a new Apple ID, and segregate your files, emails and bank cards.  You want to protect those.  I would change the password on your account ASAP if you think she will look at / destroy your files / emails and use your bank cards.

I don't know enough about Apple ID, if it is like Google Play, you can have a parent account, and have a children's account, where all of the apps, that you bought can be shared, and let him seek approval for each in-app purchase (if you are willing to fund those), that you would have to approve individually.  That is how I have my family's phones set up, but I am Android, not iOS.

I will respond more in depth; however, since you have read her the riot act about cheating, you have put your account in jeopardy, act accordingly.

[SaltyDawg]

https://www.apple.com/family-sharing/ is what you want to do with her son, so he has access to all of the services without direct access to your bank cards, e-mails, etc.

For other users who are reading this thread.  Google's family library can be found at https://play.google.com/family/ & https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7007852

[OKrunch]

Are you sure that it was even him, not his mother saying she was him, just to get your data access?

[SaltyDawg]

Its funny you should mention "the only person whom I can imagine being beneath her is a street person (homeless)". When I first went to her to her flat, it was a council flat, nice size but my god it was messy with hardly any furniture and holes in the walls (she raged a lot). She never worked a day in her life, habitual cannabis smoker and literally owed money everywhere. So my first thought was what you said.

Doing a lot of volunteer work, I get exposed to a lot of things.  BTW, when you move on, those are good starter red flags to look for you to run - excessively messy, holes in the walls, almost no furniture, or way outdated furniture one would typically buy used (mattress on floor for a bed, etc.), there are a lot of lists of around, some more valid than others.

When i met her I was a chartered accountant, raised in a hard working family so hearing her story of poverty, abuse, family neglect, no friends and the father of her child who abused her and left her I used that as an excuse to rescue her AND excuse her abusive behaviours.

More red flags, she will likely say the same of you, now that you have told her what you know.

I know what you mean about not being vulgar but I think any females reading this know women like that do exist. Plus you are right, for her sex was a tool. Example for me would be she would offer sex as a reward for good deeds whilst trying to maintain the air that she has only ever did this for me and only me in her life, I was that good! To be fair to myself I saw it for what it was from the start (but I happily ignored it just like I think this guy is doing now)

I was a bit more naive than you, and too nice, and too non-confrontational as well, the 3 N's.

I think your spot on with those observations on him being somewhat npd. Obviously we cant diagnose him for certain.

I agree, we cannot diagnose, as we are not licensed professionals, nor have we met him.  However, it does not take a zoologist to figure out to call out a picture of a duck, a duck, especially when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, lays eggs like a duck, smells like a duck, waddles like a duck, swims like a duck, eats like a duck - basically if it looks and behaves like one, we, as laypersons, can know with reasonable certainty what we are dealing with.

The thing is her rage is something she cant control, so I think you are absolutely correct in what may happen. It may last longer given the long distance but she cant control that mask for long, with me it was just under a year but thats a year seeing me everyday.

My wife has learned to control her rages for the most part, but it occasionally gets the better of her like it did on the 16th of January.  However, her splitting and mood swings are a different story, and I am getting a lot of pushback from our couple's therapist on this.

"she is living in a fantasy world - it only exists in her mind, and when there are too many things that don't match with her fantasy it is only a matter of time it will come crashing down on he r, and you will no longer be there to rescue her".

SD she always has done even with me and that was the start of the problems (idealisation stage). She met me I earn a good salary, owns his own home, never married, no kids I was her ticket out and I know she is doing it with this guy.

A bit different scenario for me, as my wife is ultra-high functioning, she had her own home (both of us owned town homes/row homes), and she was gainfully employed and had a similar income, so this was not a red flag to me; however, what you describe is a red flag .

Right now all she is doing is dreaming about her life out there and how perfect it could all be. She is in idealisation mode which as we all know always eventually leads to devaluation.

But again I should not care (but if I'm honest I cant help but think about if they are going to be happy together, something for my next therapy session that i will work on)

Yes, you do not want to ruminate on her too much, and your therapist it the best person to help you out with that.

"you need to try a little bit of this, and a little bit of that, until you find something that is meaningful to you, and then do it. "

Thanks SD thats exactly what I need right now.

Never really rode a bike SD, but I like the sound of it, Plus I live in a leafy part of London so I have a huge park near me. I'll give it a go.

Bikes are my thing - I can cover a lot more ground than I can hiking or walking.  I really cannot run, as I will get terrible shin splints (pain in my shins) if I do that.  You just need to find something that you like doing, and brings you pleasure and/or fulfillment.

-----

"very easy to build that "She's THRIVING without me, I have lost all, she has lost nothing" mentality"

Thats exactly where Iam and its really getting to me, I cant shake this thought off, hence Im going to address this with therapy.

"Leaving behind a clean profile devoid of that replacement person ever having existed. (ask me how i know this....)"

I shudder to guess AM. She has done the same for me, she deleted every trace . It is literally what the BPD is when it comes to split and how they only see you only in extremes.

It seems consistent that the start of a relationship with someone with BPD is almost the COMPLETE opposite to the end of the relationship.

Therapy is a good place to address this.
 

I think my emotional dissonance with what happened to me is catching up slowly with my understanding of what happened to me intellectually.

I feel like its slowly gets easier (not better) to deal with as time passes. Hence why I think Im on here so much.

Look up wise mind (top of the 'tool' menu above) it will help you discern the difference between your emotional mind and logical (intellectual) mind.

-----

I knew something was going to happen today and now I have a predicament.

My ex either flew back yesterday or today. I got a text from her son. Near in mind I have spoken or heard from him for nearly 2 months now.

He texted from her phone saying it’s him and how he needs my password for my Apple ID. (He shared mine since he was little and has built up his games over 12 years on there)

I texted back if I could call. He replied just with no I just need the password.

I replied with ok and gave him the password and told him how much I’ve missed him and love him and asked him if his mum could call me.

I was distraught and upset as he just responded by telling me to wait as she is doing the dishes and nothing else. I’m not sure what to make of this.

I met him when he was just 3, I was literally his only family aside from his Mum who emotionally abused him. I was there for him through everything. I get he feels abandoned over the last year but has she poisoned him against me that much???,

So aside from being discarded by someone I raised and provided for 12 years, I have the predicament of my AppleID being easily accessed by her.

This is the reason I asked his mum to call me.

With the AppleID she has access to my files, emails and bank cards.

Help - what fo you think I should do?????

Change your password immediately since you texted the password to HER phone, before she can do damage, or limit additional damage if she has already started.  Setup the family-sharing with him, with his own Apple ID.  This will give you added leverage, where her son will need to communicate directly with you each and every time he wants to buy a game, or an in-app purchase, if he is using your payment method, alternatively, his mum can buy him gift cards (how likely is that?) if his mum doesn't want him talking to you.

Good luck & take care.

SD

[Brokenmind]

Sorry for not getting back to everyone yesterday.

I changed the password last night.. I texted her that I don’t feel comfortable and will try and put him on this family sharing thing if he wants that. You are all absolutely right, I can’t do that. I just felt compelled to not let him down by refusing.

I was hurt that he didn’t want to even talk on the phone with me. But he is 15 only and I know his Mum and what she was saying to him about me. I will always love him.

SD it’s ridiculous that I fell for her in the first place. I ignored those red flags. You are correct it was huge. Which is what I don’t understand about myself. Why did I feel compelled to rescue her? 

Was it because it felt good? I felt like a hero and if I did this for her how much is she going to love me? I felt needed and I could actually fulfil those needs?

This what im focusing on instead of BPD. I’m trying to understand and get me not her.

I think I have those 3Ns in abundance as well SD. Until now I actually thought those were good things. Naive meant im just not wired that way to do those things so naive isn’t bad. Too Nice? Surely that’s a good thing. Non confrontational, ok so I’m not aggressive and cause stress again good right?

I should have seen them as: Naive - you think because you wouldn’t you think no one else would? Nice - yes too nice which means I’m easily taken advantage of. Non confrontational- that just means I neglect my own needs over others needs.

Like the duck analogy. Can I ask SD, do you think a pwbpd with a codependent is different to when their with a pwNPD? What’s the difference in the dynamic of the relationship?

My wife has learned to control her rages for the most part, but it occasionally gets the better of her like it did on the 16th of January.  However, her splitting and mood swings are a different story, and I am getting a lot of pushback from our couple's therapist on this.

What do you mean pushback SD? Is the therapist aiding with her?

[quote author=SaltyDawg link=topic=357338.msg13208527#msg13208527 date=1707339797
A bit different scenario for me, as my wife is ultra-high functioning, she had her own home (both of us owned town homes/row homes), and she was gainfully employed and had a similar income, so this was not a red flag to me; however, what you describe is a red flag .
[/quote]

Do you think because she is high functioning it helps her control her rage? I only have my ex as reference who is obviously low functioning.

My ex took one job in 12 years. A friend of mine owned a cafe and he did me a favour employing her as a waitress. She got fired within 2 weeks and that friend stopped talking to me.

So

Just an update for today.

She did reply to my text about the AppleID. But she didn’t mention that at all.

She simply texted “I don’t want to speak to you again”, “her son never wanted you anyway, ” and “I’m finally happy now”.

It was followed by another text (warning about graphic):





 “I love you so much your so perfect, I’m getting wet just thinking about you  xxxx” followed straight away with “MISTAKE”

Yeah I know. Designed to get an emotional response from me, and the last  text  wasn’t a mistake.

But surprisingly it actually didn’t bother me one bit! I don’t know why it didn’t. It should have.

Either way thanks SD for yesterday and bring there straight away. You’ve truly helped me so much through all this I haven’t even met you and you’ve been there for me more than most I know.

[Brokenmind]

OKrunch

Thanks, I thought the same at first, but i think it was definitely her son as I could tell from the way he texts.

As I mentioned to SD I changed the password last night just in case.

I don’t actually have anything to hide, but she would have access to my passwords for even this site plus access to my bank.

I was just too quick to help her son. I haven’t spoken to him for so long so when he asked I jumped at it.

[SaltyDawg]

I changed the password last night.. I texted her that I don’t feel comfortable and will try and put him on this family sharing thing if he wants that. You are all absolutely right, I can’t do that. I just felt compelled to not let him down by refusing.

I was hurt that he didn’t want to even talk on the phone with me. But he is 15 only and I know his Mum and what she was saying to him about me. I will always love him.

Look on the positive side, you did tell him that you 'loved him' on the text exchange.  It is up to him to reconnect with you; however, do not expect this.  However, I do want to temper your expectations, as I have a story that relates...  Back in the year 2000, my uBPD/uNPD/+exgf at the time also had a 15 yo who wasn't mine; and when I broke it off with his mum, he did not reach out to me, except several months later when his mum was arrested and put in jail, and then it was to bail his mum out.  He did not have his own cell phone at the time.

SD it’s ridiculous that I fell for her in the first place. I ignored those red flags. You are correct it was huge. Which is what I don’t understand about myself. Why did I feel compelled to rescue her?

Was it because it felt good? I felt like a hero and if I did this for her how much is she going to love me? I felt needed and I could actually fulfil those needs?

This what im focusing on instead of BPD. I’m trying to understand and get me not her.

 

White knight?  Savior complex?  All stuff you should look at with a professional therapist to figure out.
 

I think I have those 3Ns in abundance as well SD. Until now I actually thought those were good things. Naive meant im just not wired that way to do those things so naive isn’t bad. Too Nice? Surely that’s a good thing. Non confrontational, ok so I’m not aggressive and cause stress again good right?

I should have seen them as: Naive - you think because you wouldn’t you think no one else would? Nice - yes too nice which means I’m easily taken advantage of. Non confrontational- that just means I neglect my own needs over others needs.

I think that I am too nice, still am, overall it is a good trait; however, it is very easy to be taken advantage of.  So, I have shifted, instead of gifting money, I will gift my time, my efforts, and I will purchase what they need, and give that to them instead.  Money can be used for drugs, and other vices (like other partners).  If I am going to gift money, it will be directly to what they need to be paid, like tax bill, a utility bill, hospital bill, etc.

Before I thought I wasn't Naive; however, I was, and in many ways I still am; however, it has taken a long time for me to figure things out, I am in my mid 50's right now.  Prior to last year, I was non-confrontational; however, I have learned to push back, and become confrontational - borderlines do not like confrontation.

Like the duck analogy. Can I ask SD, do you think a pwbpd with a codependent is different to when their with a pwNPD? What’s the difference in the dynamic of the relationship?

This is a personal opinion, that an AI came up with, and I agree with Chat GPT 3.5:

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) often involves complex dynamics in relationships, and while it's not accurate to say that individuals with BPD are exclusively paired with individuals with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) or codependency, there can indeed be patterns observed in these relationships.

Here are some key differences in dynamics between NPD and codependency in relationships with individuals with BPD:

1. **Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD):**
   - **Power Struggles:** In a relationship where one partner has BPD and the other has NPD, there can be intense power struggles. The narcissistic individual often seeks admiration, validation, and control, while the borderline individual may struggle with intense emotions, fear of abandonment, and identity issues.
   - **Manipulation and Exploitation:** Narcissists tend to exploit others for their own gain and manipulate situations to their advantage. This can exacerbate the emotional volatility of the borderline partner and lead to cycles of conflict and emotional abuse.
   - **Lack of Empathy:** NPD is characterized by a lack of empathy and an excessive need for admiration. This can lead to invalidation and dismissive behavior towards the borderline partner's emotional needs, further exacerbating their feelings of abandonment and instability.

2. **Codependency:**
   - **Enabling Behaviors:** Codependent individuals often prioritize the needs of others over their own to an unhealthy extent. In a relationship with a person with BPD, a codependent partner may enable maladaptive behaviors by constantly rescuing or accommodating the borderline partner's emotional demands.
   - **Identity Fusion:** Codependent individuals may struggle with boundaries and have difficulty distinguishing their own emotions and needs from those of their partner. This can lead to a sense of enmeshment in the relationship, where the codependent partner's identity becomes intertwined with that of the borderline partner.
   - **Fear of Abandonment:** Codependent individuals often have an intense fear of abandonment and may go to great lengths to avoid conflict or rejection in the relationship. This fear can manifest in behaviors such as people-pleasing, passive-aggressiveness, or emotional suppression.

In both dynamics, there can be a pattern of unhealthy relational dynamics, but the specific manifestations and underlying motivations differ. It's essential for individuals in these relationships to seek support and therapy to address these dynamics and work towards healthier relationship patterns.

Also, the NPD and BPD dynamic looks like the following, by a different AI, that I agree with:

Some reasons why people with borderline personality disorder (BPD) might be attracted to people with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) include:

Similar relationship skills
Both types of people tend to get into relationships quickly and have similar relationship skills.

Intense emotions
Both types of people may feel romantic emotions more intensely than others.

validate self-esteem
When someone with BPD first meets a narcissist, they may be amazed by their confidence and find being involved with them validates their character.

Addiction-like dynamic
Both partners may come across as having the ability to fulfill each other's deepest needs and desires, creating an addiction-like dynamic.

Nurturing
The person with BPD provides nourishment for the person with NPD, allowing them to feel something else's intense affect. The NPD provides safety and stability for the BPD.

Complementary disorders
Opposites attract when there are personality disorders involved. Each individual has a broken sense of self that complements the other in ways that healthy selves cannot fulfill.

Other reasons include:
+Both partners may meet each other's needs through sex or substance abuse.
+BPD is relationally driven.
+BPD idealizes the NPD, which emotionally feeds the NPD.

If you have a BPD/NPD mix, these are my personal observations, they come off as being arrogant, they loves themselves too much, and will not do the self-harm/suicide symptom; however, all of the other ones were present, even though they did not outwardly show the fear of abandonment as they had to outwardly show confidence.  They also think they can do no wrong, and make grandiose statements; however, will often have no facts to back up those statements.  They think they are right all the time.

What do you mean pushback SD? Is the therapist aiding with her?

I personally think that the therapist, is protecting my wife from my pushback, as she doesn't want me to crush my wife's self-esteem by pointing out glaring inconsistencies with my wife's distorted facts that are based on her feelings.  I really want the therapist to work on having my wife align her feelings with the actual facts - by not doing this, it only perpetuates the feeling like I am being gaslit by my wife, and this is roadblock to my wife and I reconnecting on an emotional level of trust, as I cannot trust the distorted narrative, and my wife cannot trust my facts as they are distorted by her feelings - it is a conundrum that most therapists will not touch as it cannot be solved, unless the person with feelings based facts is self-aware of this behavior.

Do you think because she is high functioning it helps her control her rage? I only have my ex as reference who is obviously low functioning.

Yes, on my wife.  She used her mind to control it - I was amazed the first time she stopped a rage - I could literally see the physical manifestations of the emotional battle where her mind took immediate control of her emotions inside of a second.  Her body literally convulsed when I normally would have expected to see a full blown rage come on, her fists clenched up, her body contorted and became exceptionally rigid, and I could visibly see on her face where she willed the rage away - I was truly awestruck when I saw this for the first time.  I do not know the specifics on how she did this; however, I do attribute her being able to manage her emotions in this manner to her individual therapist.

My ex took one job in 12 years. A friend of mine owned a cafe and he did me a favour employing her as a waitress. She got fired within 2 weeks and that friend stopped talking to me.

Oh, boy, sounds like something might have happened.  Did you ever find out why she was canned?

She did reply to my text about the AppleID. But she didn’t mention that at all.

She simply texted “I don’t want to speak to you again”, “her son never wanted you anyway, ” and “I’m finally happy now”.

 “I love you so much your so perfect, I’m getting wet just thinking about you  xxxx” followed straight away with “MISTAKE”

Yeah I know. Designed to get an emotional response from me, and the last  text  wasn’t a mistake.

But surprisingly it actually didn’t bother me one bit! I don’t know why it didn’t. It should have.

Thank you for sharing that.  I have a different theory on that, she was texting another guy, but mistakenly sent it to you instead, since you are no longer available to fleece for cash, and based on what her siblings have said on the number of persons she has been with.  I suspect It didn't bother you, since you have become emotionally detached to her, as she was chasing a fantasy man who chases a fantasy creature in a fantasy world after taking your money to do it - you no longer want to be with her after how she has betrayed you.

Either way thanks SD for yesterday and bring there straight away. You’ve truly helped me so much through all this I haven’t even met you and you’ve been there for me more than most I know.

My pleasure in helping you.  I've been there in the past in a similar position with a similar low functioning BPD/NPD woman, it is my way of giving back, to you, and to others, as there is too few resources for men who are being taken advantage of, and if I can help you it is one fewer person who has to continue going through this crap.

Take care.

SD

[Brokenmind]

Back in the year 2000, my uBPD/uNPD/+exgf at the time also had a 15 yo who wasn't mine; and when I broke it off with his mum, he did not reach out to me, except several months later when his mum was arrested and put in jail, and then it was to bail his mum out.  He did not have his own cell phone at the time.

Whoah! SD did it not bother you that after several months he only came back just for that?

For me it’s not about the money itself , (easy come easy go), it’s about the intention. My exs spending habits were extreme to the point of if I let her she would get new nails every day costing £80. I noticed every time I gave her money for food, bills etc she would straight away get her nails done.

White knight?  Savior complex?  All stuff you should look at with a professional therapist to figure out.
 
I think that I am too nice, still am, overall it is a good trait; however, it is very easy to be taken advantage of.  So, I have shifted, instead of gifting money, I will gift my time, my efforts, and I will purchase what they need, and give that to them instead.  Money can be used for drugs, and other vices (like other partners).  If I am going to gift money, it will be directly to what they need to be paid, like tax bill, a utility bill, hospital bill, etc.

Ain’t that the truth! I’m very easy as the concept of using someone for advantage like that is alien to me.This is definitely something I’m working on. See I always transferred her cash for the 6-7 years whenever she needed. After that I became like you, insisting I pay for it directly, this always angered her as she obviously just wanted the cash.

I personally think that the therapist, is protecting my wife from my pushback, as she doesn't want me to crush my wife's self-esteem by pointing out glaring inconsistencies with my wife's distorted facts that are based on her feelings.

That’s an awful situation. I have read of this happening a lot. Is this therapist a couple therapist or her own therapist?

I’ve read that if it’s her therapist then they will only focus on her at your expense. Your not their patient she is so to speak, therefore your needs are not the therapist concern. Some have even felt open hostility from their partners therapist.

.Oh, boy, sounds like something might have happened.  Did you ever find out why she was canned?

Oh SD it was embarrassing. She verbally abused customers, felt above cleaning at the end of the shift and called him the c word. But even then my friend didn’t sack her. She was accused of stealing… not even money, she stole cakes!! she denied it of course, I believed her of course, argued with my friend, then I got sent the cctv! I had to go begging him not to press charges. Why she would steal cakes is beyond me. She said he deserved it because he was treating her badly then made up some story of him coming on to her to get me angry. I know it’s a lie as this guy is married, he had a gorgeous wife (who my ex was really jealous of) and I could see how in love he was. I actually suspected she came on to him hence the constant nastiness she would say about his wife. Plus when she started there she suddenly wearing her hair down and wearing tighter more revealing clothes (she told me he insisted apparently!)

I have a different theory on that, she was texting another guy, but mistakenly sent it to you instead, since you are no longer available to fleece for cash, and based on what her siblings have said on the number of persons she has been with.  I suspect It didn't bother you, since you have become emotionally detached to her, as she was chasing a fantasy man who chases a fantasy creature in a fantasy world after taking your money to do it - you no longer want to be with her after how she has betrayed you.

I think you are right. It’s like all my paranoias and fears over the years have finally come to the surface and I finally believed them. Being told by her sisters that she cheated on me more than twice, that she had always done this.

Do you know get else they told me? I met my ex through a childhood friend. This friend never worked but sold cannabis. She was his customer. This friend had a long term partner. I fell out with him when he argued with her because she owed him money. Now I find out she used to give him sexual favours for weed and when I argued with him and told to F off after paying him the money, she slept with him again. After 12 years I find this out!

My pleasure in helping you.  I've been there in the past in a similar position with a similar low functioning BPD/NPD woman, it is my way of giving back, to you, and to others, as there is too few resources for men who are being taken advantage of, and if I can help you it is one fewer person who has to continue going through this crap.

SD, how many BPD partners have you had?

Your right too few resources which is why you are literally a God send on here. I read this site for years prior and never commented so your helping 1,000s who read these posts and not just me.

It’s the reason I’m on here so much as well. Not only it helps me but I know when I’m at my worst just reading others experiences that really resonate with me is a great source of information.

So I hope anyone reading my story (I know it’s long and I’ve been very open) it will help them understand and resonate with how they’re feeling.

[SaltyDawg]

BrokenMind,

Thanks for sharing.

Whoah! SD did it not bother you that after several months he only came back just for that?

It did bother me; however, I also knew what his mum was like.  Like you, I did leave on good terms with him, and told him he could reach out to me any time he needed me - and he did, he went to the next door neighbor and used their phone to call me, since he did not have one (this was before children had mobiles).

For me it’s not about the money itself , (easy come easy go), it’s about the intention. My exs spending habits were extreme to the point of if I let her she would get new nails every day costing £80. I noticed every time I gave her money for food, bills etc she would straight away get her nails done.

This exgf was like that, I'd give her money to pay a bill, and she had a new stereo system, I saw it, and I didn't want any part of that - since I was too nice, she had to cheat on me before she crossed my one and only relationship boundary a 2nd time (the first time, since I hadn't talked about this boundary, I gave her a verbal warning), as I am a firm believer of being loyal to one another while in a relationship.

So, she worked me in that manner, where I would pay directly; however, the public support she got went towards her self-indulging behaviors (she was a widow, and had dwindling money from the work accident settlement from her late husband's death, and this was just about out). 

Circling back to my wife, whom I also believe has OCPD - depending on which peer reviewed NIH study I look at has a comorbidity of up to 50% (the other papers that have looked at this comorbidity say 35% and 5%); however, what I have observed on support groups for borderlines, this number is likely closer to 15-25%.  One of the symptoms of OCPD is "A miserly approach to spending for themselves and others because they see money as something to be saved for future disasters" - so while most of the time, she was very miserly; however, on occasion when her BPD kicked in, she wanted to spend - all or nothing thinking was on money too, even though that is not a specific symptom of BPD even though textbooks have listed this an example under the "Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving)" symptom of BPD where they impulsively spend money on themselves instead of what is really needed (on their children, on mandatory bills & expenses like food, etc.).

That’s an awful situation. I have read of this happening a lot. Is this therapist a couple therapist or her own therapist?

This was the couple's therapist, the same one who supported my wife's ultimatum that I do not come on this site; however, my individual therapist supports me being here - guess who I am following now.  For a while I honored it, so I was only reading (not posting) - so there are likely many who cannot post, for this reason, so I post so they can see that they are not alone in this mess - and get pointers on what may be obvious to me (like not sharing a password to your financial accounts)

I’ve read that if it’s her therapist then they will only focus on her at your expense. Your not their patient she is so to speak, therefore your needs are not the therapist concern. Some have even felt open hostility from their partners therapist.

I think my partner's individual therapist is doing a great job.  My individual therapist is doing a good job too.  It's the couple's therapists that I have an issue with who will take her side of the false narrative more often over my side of the story.  The couple's therapist is in the middle of two differing narratives, her feelings presented as facts, albeit very much distorted to being a false narrative; whereas, I present facts as I see them (a different perspective than my wife) which are based on actual observation where I adjust my feelings to match those 'facts'.  So the couple's therapist has to navigate two different view points, and help two partners come to an agreement.  Well, I am not willing to accept a false fact as a true fact, so I am being difficult in smoothing things over, as I know appeasing does not work with a borderline and I will no longer validate the invalid.  I plan on confronting the couple's therapist soon, in the next session or two, to understand why she is doing this.

Oh SD it was embarrassing. She verbally abused customers, felt above cleaning at the end of the shift and called him the c word. But even then my friend didn’t sack her. She was accused of stealing… not even money, she stole cakes!! she denied it of course, I believed her of course, argued with my friend, then I got sent the cctv! I had to go begging him not to press charges. Why she would steal cakes is beyond me. She said he deserved it because he was treating her badly then made up some story of him coming on to her to get me angry. I know it’s a lie as this guy is married, he had a gorgeous wife (who my ex was really jealous of) and I could see how in love he was. I actually suspected she came on to him hence the constant nastiness she would say about his wife. Plus when she started there she suddenly wearing her hair down and wearing tighter more revealing clothes (she told me he insisted apparently!)

The camera doesn't lie (CCTV).  In hindsight, it is easy to see your friend was right, and your now ex was in the wrong; however, at the time you believed her over him as you wanted to support her version of her events, as she was your girlfriend.  If she was a waitress, dressing in that manner can get bigger tips.  This is the same mindset our couple's therapist is telling me to do, and I know it is wrong.  I will validate my wife's feelings, but not the false narrative where my wife twist the facts to match her feelings.

I think you are right. It’s like all my paranoias and fears over the years have finally come to the surface and I finally believed them. Being told by her sisters that she cheated on me more than twice, that she had always done this.

I a relieved that you can finally see her in her true colors - she has made her bed so to speak, and now she has to lie in it.  However, most more traditional low-functioning borderlines, are survivors, and will find another person to seduce them into providing and caring for them, while leaving you behind you wondering 'what the heck just happened to me?'

Do you know get else they told me? I met my ex through a childhood friend. This friend never worked but sold cannabis. She was his customer. This friend had a long term partner. I fell out with him when he argued with her because she owed him money. Now I find out she used to give him sexual favours for weed and when I argued with him and told to F off after paying him the money, she slept with him again. After 12 years I find this out!

I see a 'pattern' here.  She uses sex to get what she wants - it is the oldest profession in the world, to whore oneself out in order to get favorable treatment, services, money, stuff.

SD, how many BPD partners have you had?

I've had a total of 3 partners with whom I had sexual relations in my lifetime, only the current one, and previous one I believe have symptoms consistent with the DSM-5, so the answer to your question is 2 of the 3.  I've dated others, but I do not believe any of those had BPD symptoms.

However, my children have issues, one is too young to diagnose, but meets the minimum criteria with his symptoms; hopefully, he will grow out of it, and I am taking proactive steps to ensure this.

I have a step brother who is likely an ASPD, a sociopath (a different, yet similar Cluster-B PD) according to the well respected site psychologytoday.com although technically he is 'undiagnosed' there is no doubt in anyone's mind what he really is as he is on the top 100 all time killer list as ranked by People Magazine, featured on hundreds of real life crime podcasts, tv shows, news reports, books, magazine articles, and even a movie.

I have also had an individual therapist who said she was BPD which had a very unique dynamic to it.

Your right too few resources which is why you are literally a God send on here. I read this site for years prior and never commented so your helping 1,000s who read these posts and not just me.

It’s the reason I’m on here so much as well. Not only it helps me but I know when I’m at my worst just reading others experiences that really resonate with me is a great source of information.

So I hope anyone reading my story (I know it’s long and I’ve been very open) it will help them understand and resonate with how they’re feeling.

I mentioned it earlier, I for a while, was one of those just reading (as a result of an ultimatum) as I much rather be interactive, and proactively deal with my issue(s) than to be a complacent person being taken advantage of.  I prefer the rescuer position of the Karpman Drama Triangle, where I used to rescue the borderline and others, I am now rescuing myself with these same character traits that I have used to rescue borderlines and others.

Undoubtedly, if you help one, or helped hundreds or even thousands with our respective stories, it is worth talking about this in the open, as this has been going on for thousands of years, and until recently it really hasn't been talked about openly, as being with such a partner is a very shameful experience.  I am glad I am SaltyDawg here instead of a real name, as that would be too shameful.

I would like to wrap this up by remind you (and others reading) to do self-care, as being with a pwBPD really is stressful and emotionally draining, in order to recharge your emotional energy (fill you cup).

Take care.

SD

[Brokenmind]

Hey SD

Before I reply to you I need to tell you something that happened today (again!!)

Got a text, from her cousin. The one my ex told me  she was staying with when she went to US the first time.

She texted”hi it’s (name). I know what’s happened…… I don’t blame you….. it’s better you move on… pls don’t tell her I told you this”.

So I’m stumped, this is the cousin who is the only one she hasn’t fallen out with.

I didn’t reply. But then I get a call from the cousin. I’m kinda glad I did answer and SD you would be really interested in this as it PROVES everything you said!

She told me about what happened with her son when she dropped off her son to go there for the 1 week and about the relationship and she knows how bad it was for me.

She then told me when my ex went the second time for 3 weeks, she hardly called her son. She told me show her son told her only yesterday that he loves me, that I was his only male role model growing up and how he saw me as his Dad. He wants contact and he asked for my number as he has his phone now but his Mum won’t give it to him let alone let him call.i gave her my number.

She then told me she is the only one still talking to her and how her son wants to leave as soon as he turns 16,

Then, and this will be of interest to you SD. She spoke about this guy.

My ex called her cousin many times during those 3 weeks crying that this guy is treating her like PLEASE READ. Ignoring her and not even speaking to her for long periods of time and being cold to her. They have also been arguing over over women he flirts with not only on YouTube but while she was there with him. Apparently  he would flirt right in front of her.

He also lent her the money to go out there and  wanted it back (hence the request for a lot of money from me just before she went)

Her cousin then told me she tried also to get pregnant with him but it didn’t work. And how she is in love with him but he doesn’t love her.

So SD….. What was that saying about ducks again??

How right were you!!!

Are you sure we’re not Sigmund Freud in a past life?? You did that from just watching a few you tube videos!

I’m not happy at this, I don’t want to appear like I’m gloating. I actually feel sorry for her because she has literally burnt all her bridges in the UK. So although I don’t feel sorry for her, I do kind of pity her.

I have actually vowed to myself to not think about her at all from tomorrow,  except when I go on this site as it helps me so much; but I will use that time to solely focus on me.

I think I finally have stopped seeing that mask of her love bombing idealisation for me and only see what’s underneath now and it’s well really ugly. I’m sure she thought she loved me but it wasn’t so why would I want that back.

I will reply to your post in a moment but I had to tell you because literally everything you said about him and her was right!

[Brokenmind]

,
This exgf was like that, I'd give her money to pay a bill, and she had a new stereo system, I saw it, and I didn't want any part of that - since I was too nice, she had to cheat on me before she crossed my one and only relationship boundary a 2nd time (the first time, since I hadn't talked about this boundary, I gave her a verbal warning), as I am a firm believer of being loyal to one another while in a relationship.

I had the exact same boundary as you SD I literally told her after the first time, which unknown to me was her cheating on him, that this was one of me few red lines no cheating. I’m like you in that I’m very loyal whilst in another relationship.

when her BPD kicked in, she wanted to spend - all or nothing thinking was on money too, even though that is not a specific symptom of BPD even though textbooks have listed this an example under the "Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving)" symptom of BPD where they impulsively spend money on themselves instead of what is really needed (on their children, on mandatory bills & expenses like food, etc.).

Yeap that’s my ex to a T. Her spending was exactly that. She would buy anything except what was needed. From reading my previous post you can see how unsafe mine is when it comes to unsafe sex which now sickens me. I thought impulsive spending was a symptom?

This was the couple's therapist, the same one who supported my wife's ultimatum that I do not come on this site; however, my individual therapist supports me being here - guess who I am following now.  For a while I honored it, so I was only reading (not posting) - so there are likely many who cannot post, for this reason, so I post so they can see that they are not alone in this mess -

Seriously SD, an ultimatum not to go on this site? To  be fair mine would have done the same if she knew about this.

I’m glad you got a good therapist that is supporting you. I myself was reading for nearly a year before I had the courage to post my story. But it did help to read other posts and I do hope my story can also resonate with anyone reading.

and get pointers on what may be obvious to me (like not sharing a password to your financial accounts)

Hahaha touché, no no, I’am the idiot; that should have been obvious to me. Just got excited to hear from her son!

Well, I am not willing to accept a false fact as a true fact, so I am being difficult in smoothing things over, as I know appeasing does not work with a borderline and I will no longer validate the invalid.

Excellent SD and something else  wish I knew before. I accepted false facts when I knew they were false. Like the second cheating she did in 2018 where over the next year every time it came up she would twist till it suited her narrative that she is not a cheat or a liar it was all his doing.

.
I a relieved that you can finally see her in her true colors - she has made her bed so to speak, and now she has to lie in it.  However, most more traditional low-functioning borderlines, are survivors, and will find another person to seduce them into providing and caring for them, while leaving you behind you wondering 'what the heck just happened to me?'

Your right SD even more so after todays events which you have read now. I think her whole intention was to hang on to me just paying for her until she secured him. Although she couldn’t hide her contempt for me she never expected me to find out about him.

So given today’s call (previous post) it appears one branch is broken (me) and the other branch is suddenly not looking great.

I see a 'pattern' here.  She uses sex to get what she wants - it is the oldest profession in the world, to whore oneself out in order to get favorable treatment, services, money, stuff.

Yes and now I know. I was her best punter so to speak. The thing is I feel bad even writing that. Like I’m trying to be mean when all Iam is angry that it happened to me. Anger and shame to be honest. I feel like a fool that saw the house was on fire and convinced himself it wasn’t because he spent too much time fixing it.

However, my children have issues, one is too young to diagnose, but meets the minimum criteria with his symptoms; hopefully, he will grow out of it, and I am taking proactive steps to ensure this.

I’m sorry to hear that SD, her son has issues too, adhd but I see him mirroring her behaviour a lot sometimes which worries me. The difference is you have much more of a say in their upbringing than I did. So with your presence they are not just exposed to her disorder. Kids tend to mirror a lot but as they grow older they will have you as an example to fall back on as well. All you can do is be there for them. I’ve always been under the belief that unconditional love should only be reserved for your children (yes in my relationship I didn’t practice what I preached and loved my ex like that) and no one else.

I have a step brother who is likely an ASPD, a sociopath (a different, yet similar Cluster-B PD) according to the well respected site psychologytoday.com although technically he is 'undiagnosed' there is no doubt in anyone's mind what he really is as he is on the top 100 all time killer list as ranked by People Magazine, featured on hundreds of real life crime podcasts, tv shows, news reports, books, magazine articles, and even a movie.

SD no 1. That’s scary as hell. no 2 I assume you are safe as he is in the top 100 so he is incarcerated. And no 3. SD that’s scary as hell!!

I prefer the rescuer position of the Karpman Drama Triangle, where I used to rescue the borderline and others, I am now rescuing myself with these same character traits that I have used to rescue borderlines and others.

Karpman Drama Triangle is triangle with Persecutor, Victim and Rescuer on each point? I thought it described a relationship where the couple shift from one to another. How does this apply to you using all three traits?

Undoubtedly, if you help one, or helped hundreds or even thousands with our respective stories, it is worth talking about this in the open, as this has been going on for thousands of years, and until recently it really hasn't been talked about openly, as being with such a partner is a very shameful experience.  I am glad I am SaltyDawg here instead of a real name, as that would be too shameful.

That’s what I want to change by writing on here. The sense of shame which keeps it inside you. Thats why I’ve been so open here. The anonymity of it helps and I’m glad I’m Brokenmind (it’s funny as I chose the name as that’s how I felt when I joined)

Thanks once again SD

[kells76]

Hi Brokenmind, definitely a lot going on for you.

This stood out to me in your latest post:

Like I’m trying to be mean when all Iam is angry that it happened to me. Anger and shame to be honest. I feel like a fool that saw the house was on fire and convinced himself it wasn’t because he spent too much time fixing it.

What do you think the shame is about?

Some people (like my therapist) suggest that guilt is about feeling like you've done something wrong, and shame is about feeling like you are wrong. Is that part of what's going on?

Karpman Drama Triangle is triangle with Persecutor, Victim and Rescuer on each point? I thought it described a relationship where the couple shift from one to another.

Any number of persons can form a drama triangle -- in fact, one person, in her own head, can rotate around the various positions: "I can't do anything right, I should be ashamed of myself -- I'm trash [persecutor]. Why doesn't anyone help me? Why don't they care about me instead of them? [victim] If nobody is going to be around, I may as well buy this thing to feel better [rescuer]."

I guess it describes a dynamic situation more than a static situation, though we can have more comfortable positions from where we start conflict. Lynne Forrest's article on The Three Faces Of Victim – An Overview Of The Victim Triangle is a helpful expansion on the drama triangle concept.

In your relationship with your ex, what position was most comfortable for you?

[Brokenmind]

Hey kells76

Thanks, definitely not my finest year that’s for sure. I feel like I’ve been on this site like a rapid dog so apologies to everyone on that.

What do you think the shame is about?

For me it’s the shame of letting her do that to me over a disk of 12 years. Shame for forgiving her each and every time and losing all self respect and shame on my family and friends who I neglected and lost because I chose her so completely. I let her do that and I’m ashamed of hurting myself like that. I wouldn’t hurt my worst enemy the way I’ve hurt and met myself down. That’s the shame I have right now.

So yes, I feel like I was so wrong and there’s something wrong with me. As I don’t know anyone, aside from people I’ve met here, that would put up with that. But at least I’ve recognised that and can start to work on this.

This is why I said earlier that I need to stop focusing on what she did, what she is like to what did I do and what am I like.

This obsessive force of focus is on me now not her. And to borrow a quote the force is strong with me.

All this energy which I’m sure everyone reading my post can see is better spent on myself for once.

Ahh thanks for the explanation that does make sense now.

With my ex did 8 years it was most comfortable as rescuer. But I say the last 4 I rotated

I suppose right now with me I feel like I’m rotating all three daily. I’m persecutor “why was I so stupid, I’m ashamed of myself, I’m pathetic” to victim “why does no one (aside from therapist and this site) understand why I stayed so long, why I let myself be destroyed for someone else” to rescuer “I will focus and rescue me, if I even put half the energy I used on her I can get out of this, then I go back to persecutor and so forth.

It’s getting better as each day goes by. Like today I wasn’t tempted to check on YouTube and punish myself. I didn’t write another long text to her to only delete it. I actually had a sing along in the shower playing when a favourite song came in the radio. I even had a joyous conversation with my elderly neighbour (a 90 year old retired scientist with a wit to rival Stephen Fry), I went for a run in the park and actually appreciated the scenery instead of thinking about her in a forest in US.

In short I feel like the pretzel I twisted myself into for her is slowly unravelling to reveal the person I used to be. Don’t get me wrong I’ve twisted it for 12 years so I have a long long way yet but it’s getting there.

[once removed]

Karpman Drama Triangle is triangle with Persecutor, Victim and Rescuer on each point? I thought it described a relationship where the couple shift from one to another.

a couple shifting around is more of a "love triangle", a colloquialism.

a karpman drama triangle describes the way people deal with conflict. triangulation, in psychology, is the attempt to relieve the stress of conflict by bringing in another source to offload it. its not a pejorative, necessarily, though it is usually used as one; there is good and bad triangulation, like when a couple decides to engage in couples therapy (and being "good" or "bad" depending on how they participate).

youre triangulating right now by reaching out for support in yours. we are triangulating by supporting you.

For me it’s the shame of letting her do that to me over a disk of 12 years. Shame for forgiving her each and every time and losing all self respect and shame on my family and friends who I neglected and lost because I chose her so completely. I let her do that and I’m ashamed of hurting myself like that. I wouldn’t hurt my worst enemy the way I’ve hurt and met myself down. That’s the shame I have right now.

if i told you not to feel ashamed, that youre a great guy who just gave his all, that you just have to find the right person, i would be "rescuing" you from your feelings.

i remember a specific occasion not long after my breakup, thinking about my relationship history (bad), realizing that i knew from the beginning that ours was a dead end relationship, one id tried to end, couldnt, only to get my ass kicked when she dumped me for another guy. i remember being afraid that i couldnt even trust myself. i was ashamed for not ending it. and of course, my self esteem was in the tank. and i was scared, scared that i didnt seem to have any control over this thing i experienced.

you feel shame now. in the not too distant future, you will be able to laugh, or at least experience some brevity over it. but in time, let it morph into motivation. youve gotten a glimpse you cant unsee, and i think for those that are able to lean into it, follow it, pull that string, theres no going back, youre far too strong to ever find yourself in that sort of hole with no way up again.

[SaltyDawg]

Got a text, from her cousin. The one my ex told me  she was staying with when she went to US the first time.

She texted”hi it’s (name). I know what’s happened…… I don’t blame you….. it’s better you move on… pls don’t tell her I told you this”.

Do not let your ex know about this or any conversations with this cousin of hers, it sounds like this cousin went out on a limb to communicate with you, and felt safe enough to do so once you 'knew enough' about the situation, so the cousin could fill in the remainder of the blanks, as this cousin appears to want the best for her son, and from the sound of it, is in the relationship with your ex far too long (a codependent trait) - a people pleaser, just as I am, and you appear to be too.

So I’m stumped, this is the cousin who is the only one she hasn’t fallen out with.

I didn’t reply. But then I get a call from the cousin. I’m kinda glad I did answer and SD you would be really interested in this as it PROVES everything you said!

She told me about what happened with her son when she dropped off her son to go there for the 1 week and about the relationship and she knows how bad it was for me.

She then told me when my ex went the second time for 3 weeks, she hardly called her son. She told me show her son told her only yesterday that he loves me, that I was his only male role model growing up and how he saw me as his Dad. He wants contact and he asked for my number as he has his phone now but his Mum won’t give it to him let alone let him call.i gave her my number.

She then told me she is the only one still talking to her and how her son wants to leave as soon as he turns 16,

I will circle back to the predictable human behavior part in the next answer.  However, for this one, even though the chances are low that this will happen, it is a possibility that her son may run-away from home to live with you once he turns 16 (a long shot; however, you will need to decide if this is going to be a possibility, you will also need to coordinate with his nan on this, if and when you get the first indication he wants to do this). 

Then, and this will be of interest to you SD. She spoke about this guy.

My ex called her cousin many times during those 3 weeks crying that this guy is treating her like  . Ignoring her and not even speaking to her for long periods of time and being cold to her. They have also been arguing over over women he flirts with not only on YouTube but while she was there with him. Apparently  he would flirt right in front of her.

He also lent her the money to go out there and wanted it back (hence the request for a lot of money from me just before she went)

Her cousin then told me she tried also to get pregnant with him but it didn’t work. And how she is in love with him but he doesn’t love her.

What you described above is classic push/pull dark psychology relationship dynamic, where he would give her some interest, then pull away, and repeat - this creates a strong desire for that person to be with them.  Kind of like a laser pointer or a feather toy with a kitten, as long as you are playing with the kitten, they will want the toy; however, as soon as you stop, so does the kitten's interest in what you were doing. 

With regards to the 'get pregnant' bit, a woman will often go into overdrive in sex to achieve this.  However, guys like him will often have a vasectomy so they will not get any more women pregnant and will toy around (flirt) with women to achieve this and likely keep her around long enough to have a lot of sex with her, until one of them grows tired of the other - and then it will be over - each of them is using the other in their own perverted way.  Also, since you now know that your ex slept around quite a bit, it would be prudent for you to get yourself medically checked out for any STI/STD.

Likewise interactive flirting with other women will achieve the similar results - I know when other women (in front of my wife) starts flirting with me (I attract 'Crazy') my wife will start giving me a lot more attention to make sure my interest is in her, and not the Crazy woman who came up to me, who more often than not are a dozen years younger than me, and are physically very attractive.

So SD….. What was that saying about ducks again??

How right were you!!!

Are you sure we’re not Sigmund Freud in a past life?? You did that from just watching a few you tube videos!

I've been told by many, including several professionals, and now including you too, that I am very good at predicting behaviors of borderlines.  Many say it is hard/impossible to do, but actually I find it easier to predict cluster-B behaviors than normal person behaviors, as if you read on this site, and elsewhere, their behaviors are so common it is as though they read and do the same script, and fall into four different groups, I've experienced 3 of them first hand, possibly the 4th too.  The only thing that is somewhat unpredictable is the timing of these behaviors, it is kind of like a 3rd world train schedule, you know it's coming, you just don't know when it it is arriving at your station.

I’m not happy at this, I don’t want to appear like I’m gloating. I actually feel sorry for her because she has literally burnt all her bridges in the UK. So although I don’t feel sorry for her, I do kind of pity her.

I have actually vowed to myself to not think about her at all from tomorrow,  except when I go on this site as it helps me so much; but I will use that time to solely focus on me.

I think I finally have stopped seeing that mask of her love bombing idealisation for me and only see what’s underneath now and it’s well really ugly. I’m sure she thought she loved me but it wasn’t so why would I want that back.

I will reply to your post in a moment but I had to tell you because literally everything you said about him and her was right!

It does feel good to actually understand the dynamics of what the F*** has been going on.  At the same time it is very painful to realize, that this situation will not get fixed, unless she has an epiphany about it, and makes a deliberate choice to fix herself with meaningful long terms therapy, more often than not lasting years if not a lifetime according to what I have read.  My wife is kind of on this journey, but not as much as I was hoping, so she is in the category of "too good to leave; however, to bad to stay". 

I'm sorry you had to have the remainder of the questions in your mind verified by her cousin in this manner.  However, it does offer clarity on her true nature, and removes all doubt you might have had, and your personal path to recovery is very clear now (mine is very murky) and you can move forward in a positive direction from this.

I do recommend seeing an individual therapist, so you can sort out your feelings on all of this, and also once you re-enter the dating scene (take your time on this) to not make the same mistake again (I've done this, I thought I improved, and I did improve, only to get much more involved, hooked, and hurt in the process). 

I had the exact same boundary as you SD I literally told her after the first time, which unknown to me was her cheating on him, that this was one of me few red lines no cheating. I’m like you in that I’m very loyal whilst in another relationship.

This this should make your decision about leaving her easier for you to implement with less feelings of guilty of leaving her even though you know she is not capable of taking care of herself.  I did this with my exgf back in 2000, who was unfaithful.

Yeap that’s my ex to a T. Her spending was exactly that. She would buy anything except what was needed. From reading my previous post you can see how unsafe mine is when it comes to unsafe sex which now sickens me. I thought impulsive spending was a symptom?

"Impulsive spending" when combined with at least one or more other impulsive behaviors of "unsafe sex" is a symptom that I mentioned of "Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving)".

Seriously SD, an ultimatum not to go on this site? To  be fair mine would have done the same if she knew about this.

Yes, and it was backed up by the 'couple's therapist' - I will listen to my individual therapist when there is a conflict in advice.

I’m glad you got a good therapist that is supporting you. I myself was reading for nearly a year before I had the courage to post my story. But it did help to read other posts and I do hope my story can also resonate with anyone reading.

If you are on the fence about going to therapy - I was for the longest time against individual therapy, as I saw them as ineffective (from couple's therapy, and my brother's experience with them).  However, as soon as I went, I immediately found out I was wrong about going to individual therapy, and I personally have found it to be very beneficial to me personally.

Excellent SD and something else  wish I knew before. I accepted false facts when I knew they were false. Like the second cheating she did in 2018 where over the next year every time it came up she would twist till it suited her narrative that she is not a cheat or a liar it was all his doing.

Your right SD even more so after todays events which you have read now. I think her whole intention was to hang on to me just paying for her until she secured him. Although she couldn’t hide her contempt for me she never expected me to find out about him.

So given today’s call (previous post) it appears one branch is broken (me) and the other branch is suddenly not looking great.
 
Yes and now I know. I was her best punter so to speak. The thing is I feel bad even writing that. Like I’m trying to be mean when all Iam is angry that it happened to me. Anger and shame to be honest. I feel like a fool that saw the house was on fire and convinced himself it wasn’t because he spent too much time fixing it.

It is okay to be angry at her, it is a natural reaction.  The key is to channel the energy of this anger in a positive and constructive direction, and not let it be destructive to you by doing a lot of self-care with healthy coping mechanisms like exercise you mentioned earlier, and focusing on yourself to be a better person.

I too feel shame; as I consider myself to be above average in intelligence as I was a "B" student (not a "C" student in school.  However, I do find a lot of shame being duped into these relationships, not seeing the signs for what they were, and staying far too long in both of these relationships due to my moral obligations of what is right.

 

I’m sorry to hear that SD, her son has issues too, adhd but I see him mirroring her behaviour a lot sometimes which worries me. The difference is you have much more of a say in their upbringing than I did. So with your presence they are not just exposed to her disorder. Kids tend to mirror a lot but as they grow older they will have you as an example to fall back on as well. All you can do is be there for them. I’ve always been under the belief that unconditional love should only be reserved for your children (yes in my relationship I didn’t practice what I preached and loved my ex like that) and no one else.

My son's issues - fear of abandonment is exhibited 3 different ways, all at night, one he doesn't like going out after dark to do his chores (feeding the chickens) unless someone is with him, has big issues at sleep-away camps* and sleep-away playdates with his friends, and up until this year wanted to have a parent go to sleep with them as they did not want to be alone.  *He is in scouts, and we paid for his camp, after he agreed to go, and when the time came he expressed suicidal ideation about going (2nd symptom).  He is also very impulsive in his spending (he is almost always broke) and binge eating sweets behind my back (3rd symptom).  Some of his classmates he has had cycles of idealization and devaluation (4th symptom) which confused his teachers on how fast he cycled through that, as we had requested that he be separated by sitting with another group of children only to become best friends a couple days later.  Severe shifts in his mood lasting >15 minutes to a few hours (5th symptom of mood swings, even though more rapid than specified by the symptom); however, unlike my wife, he is very remorseful for his behavior once he returns to baseline.  And he also has disproportionately strong displays of anger consistent with oppositional defiance disorder (6th symptom). 

So far he has not shown the other symptoms, and I hope he grows out of the ones that he does have, as it is too early to diagnose.  He seems to be maturing out of them, so I am hopeful he is not cursed the same way his mom is.

I am sharing to see if you can see any similarities in him.

He also wears his emotions on his sleeve, and gets easily triggered when he is hungry or otherwise stressed out.  Might have ADHD, not formally evaluated, we are waiting to see if he grows out of his fidgety phase as per pediatrician recommendation.

I feel the best way for him to grow out of this, is to maximize the socialization he is willing to tolerate, with interactions with a lot of different children on organized sports teams, play dates, after school activities, etc.  So, it is easy to keep him distracted from his feeling during most of the day, except at night when his anxieties kick in.
 

SD no 1. That’s scary as hell. no 2 I assume you are safe as he is in the top 100 so he is incarcerated. And no 3. SD that’s scary as hell!!

Step brother with ASPD is serving a life sentence for one of the two murders he is suspected of committing and he was grooming a 3rd.  If he ever gets out on appeal (exceptionally unlikely as all but one has been exhausted), he will be charged with other crimes.  Reflecting on my limited amount of time with him, I was thinking he had a lot of common personality traits with my wife, and I was thinking to myself if she didn't meet me first, she would be a good fit for him.
 

Karpman Drama Triangle is triangle with Persecutor, Victim and Rescuer on each point? I thought it described a relationship where the couple shift from one to another. How does this apply to you using all three traits?

An overly simplistic explanation, is that I will shift from one point to another on the triangle, I most comfortable in the rescuer position, and right now I am rescuing myself from the victim position (which I find shameful) as I see myself as being a strong person, and not a weak victim.  I also lash out occasionally at my wife as persecutor (new for me in the past 18 months) as I point out her bad behaviors and have enacted several boundaries for those behaviors, effectively putting her in the victim position.  It's complicated.  I see others are explaining it better than I can, so I won't go too far into this.
 

That’s what I want to change by writing on here. The sense of shame which keeps it inside you. Thats why I’ve been so open here. The anonymity of it helps and I’m glad I’m Brokenmind (it’s funny as I chose the name as that’s how I felt when I joined)

I also like the anonymity of it as it allows me to express my emotions without fear of ridicule for being so stupid to fall for not one, but two different women with BPD.  I can partially justify this, but never having learned about BPD until after the 2nd one, and I have already used my ability to spot BPD and other maladaptive personalities and to avoid those.

(to be continued...)

[SaltyDawg]

(... continued)

For me it’s the shame of letting her do that to me over a disk of 12 years. Shame for forgiving her each and every time and losing all self respect and shame on my family and friends who I neglected and lost because I chose her so completely. I let her do that and I’m ashamed of hurting myself like that. I wouldn’t hurt my worst enemy the way I’ve hurt and met myself down. That’s the shame I have right now.

So yes, I feel like I was so wrong and there’s something wrong with me. As I don’t know anyone, aside from people I’ve met here, that would put up with that. But at least I’ve recognised that and can start to work on this.

This is why I said earlier that I need to stop focusing on what she did, what she is like to what did I do and what am I like.

This obsessive force of focus is on me now not her. And to borrow a quote the force is strong with me.

I have a quarter century of shame, 23 years with my wife, and another 2 years in a relationship very much like yours is/was with an exgf.  

I personally think it is healthy to focus on yourself right now.

All this energy which I’m sure everyone reading my post can see is better spent on myself for once.

Ahh thanks for the explanation that does make sense now.

With my ex did 8 years it was most comfortable as rescuer. But I say the last 4 I rotated

I suppose right now with me I feel like I’m rotating all three daily. I’m persecutor “why was I so stupid, I’m ashamed of myself, I’m pathetic” to victim “why does no one (aside from therapist and this site) understand why I stayed so long, why I let myself be destroyed for someone else” to rescuer “I will focus and rescue me, if I even put half the energy I used on her I can get out of this, then I go back to persecutor and so forth.

When it all makes sense - which to me was impactful as the Biblical story of Adam eating from the tree in the garden of Eden - once you obtained the knowledge of good and evil, which is a very eye opening experience (of understanding of BPD), only to be cast from paradise (the relationship) for once obtaining this knowledge.

It’s getting better as each day goes by. Like today I wasn’t tempted to check on YouTube and punish myself. I didn’t write another long text to her to only delete it. I actually had a sing along in the shower playing when a favourite song came in the radio. I even had a joyous conversation with my elderly neighbour (a 90 year old retired scientist with a wit to rival Stephen Fry), I went for a run in the park and actually appreciated the scenery instead of thinking about her in a forest in US.

That sounds like some really good care.  I will share with you, you will have some good days like you just described, and bad days like you previously described.  You are recovering from the trauma bond (addiction) to her.  As long as the good days become more plentiful, and the bad days become less you are on the road to recovery.

In short I feel like the pretzel I twisted myself into for her is slowly unravelling to reveal the person I used to be. Don’t get me wrong I’ve twisted it for 12 years so I have a long long way yet but it’s getting there.

It sounds like you know what the upcoming challenges are.

Focus on yourself, do self-care, a lot of it, and keep moving forward into figuring out what the real you wants.  You may not know, so try different things until you find something you really enjoy.

Take care.

SD

[Brokenmind]

Do not let your ex know about this or any conversations with this cousin of hers

I would never betray her trust and tell my ex. I did indeed feel like she wants what is best for my ex's son.

Unfortunately this cousin is married to someone who is physically abusive to her so yes she is a people pleaser. I still get annoyed when my ex forced me to be friendly to her husband as I can never respect a man that does that.

it is a possibility that her son may run-away from home to live with you once he turns 16

He turns 16 this year and I love him like my own. He is a victim in all this more so than me.

I do have a worry that he has been damaged by his Mother and what this may entail as he turns into a man. Also what this may mean for my own healing and future. But like I said previously I believe in unconditional  love for your children and I feel this love for him. So if he does want to move in with me I will say yes.

Also, since you now know that your ex slept around quite a bit, it would be prudent for you to get yourself medically checked out for any STI/STD.

When I gave her the ultimatum of getting therapy we stopped being sexual, I did have a full check then for peace of mind and thank goodness it came back clear.

I only stopped using protection due to the fact she started accusing me of cheating as I wanted to wear a condom so I don't give her an STI!  

Likewise interactive flirting with other women will achieve the similar results

Oh I'm sure that is driving her crazy. The fact he was also flirting physically in front of her as well. She is the most jealous person I ever met.

She hid it well during the idealisation stage aside from passive aggressive remarks which were more complimentary. example:
"I know that girl at work likes you, the w##re."

I would reply that I would never cheat on her and this women does'nt even like me and she is good woman who loves her husband.
She would then play the compliment and pity me line:

"Its just that your so perfect I know every woman wants you. Plus all these girls have got money to make themselves look good"  

Years later during an argument:
"I know you cheated on me with that w##re in your old job, she was a "good" women was'nt she, so go be with her instead as she was so f'ing "good".

So she is likely doing this now with him. Obsessively going over the comments page and seething when he replies to women with hearts etc. This will be used in force in the future if she feels she has him secured and when she feels deregulated or justify her own actions.

I've been told by many, including several professionals, and now including you too, that I am very good at predicting behaviors of borderlines.

SD Im getting more out of your replies than I getting from therapy. I should be paying you! You seem to understand what I'm going through and what is actually happening but more importantly how it feels for someone like me who has these traits that attract people like my ex.

It does feel good to actually understand the dynamics of what the F*** has been going on.  At the same time it is very painful to realize, that this situation will not get fixed, unless she has an epiphany about it, and makes a deliberate choice to fix herself. My wife is kind of on this journey, but not as much as I was hoping, so she is in the category of "too good to leave; however, to bad to stay".  

It does feel good but also bad at the same time. Its a bit like a smoker who somehow only now understands how bad they are for you. Its a bit late you've damaged your lungs for 12 years and those scars wont heal, but at least your not doing more damage and your health will get better but will never be as good as it could of been if you never smoked.  

I'm sorry you had to have the remainder of the questions in your mind verified by her cousin in this manner.  However, it does offer clarity on her true nature, and removes all doubt you might have had, and your personal path to recovery is very clear now (mine is very murky) and you can move forward in a positive direction from this.

It actually helped hearing it as like you say it provides no doubts about her true nature. I think with yours its a different kettle of fish all together compared to my ex and it shows how much strength of character you have to have not lost who you are thus far.

I do recommend seeing an individual therapist, so you can sort out your feelings on all of this, and also once you re-enter the dating scene (take your time on this) to not make the same mistake again (I've done this, I thought I improved, and I did improve, only to get much more involved, hooked, and hurt in the process).  

I think I may have jumped the boat on this. I joined a dating app on the recommendation of a friend (never used one before). I thought having female company may distract me from thinking about her. But I think I made a mistake and its too soon for me.

I have had a lot of "likes" and 3 stood out. First was a dentist who was nice but she showed some red flags (kept calling me a dream although we just met and spent the night complaining about her abusive family and friends , I don't think I managed to say anything about myself the entire evening!) so I ended it nicely

2nd never turned up and yes that did get me down that night.

3rd I only spoken to on a the phone and funnily enough she is a therapist herself! We've been speaking only so far but they for hours, the first call we alone we spoke for 4 hours straight.

It felt nice just have a normal conversation and its been so long since I flirted with anyone. I have told her straight that I just come out of a relationship and she said so had she and we both want to take it real slow, just casual dating.

SD do you think this is a mistake even though Ive been clear with her but I personally feel like Im kind of rebounding just to make myself feel better and should recover fully before dating again even if that takes years.

It is okay to be angry at her, it is a natural reaction.

Problem Im still getting SD is that anger sometimes gets me into ruminating before i can use it for something positive. I sometimes suddenly have a thought about something she did that was so abhorrent and like a rabbit hole I seem to head deeper and deeper and suddenly realise that Ive wasted 3-5 hours of my day!
  

staying far too long in both of these relationships due to my moral obligations of what is right.

Thats spot on as to where my shame is coming from. I feel duped, like she used my morals to keep me from leaving so many times. It was always threats of suicide, threat of never seeing her son again, even threats to me directly if she saw me with anyone else after. I actually feared leaving her myself.
 

I am sharing to see if you can see any similarities in him.

Thank you for sharing that SD. Yes, there are a lot of similarities from what you wrote. The suicidal ideation, valuation/devaluation of friends, the mood swings and rages, her son does that.

It breaks my heart that I couldn't shield him from her. I know she damaged him the way she raised and abused him and he has similar issues to her. But he does have a balance to it, him and his Mother really trigger each other. There was no balance.

From age 3 to say 11 they were either completely enmeshed almost like he was a new born baby again with deep deep hugs in bed involving the whole body and her staring deeply into his eyes and he would make baby noises up until 11. Then to extreme rage and anger which always led to her saying the most disgusting hurtful things imaginable to him. He learnt to scream back eventually in the same manner as her Then after a few hours it will go to the other extreme.

This is another source of my shame as I felt powerless to stop this behaviour. Raising her son was always her way or no way and therefore staying with her for so long makes me me feel like I was complicit in her abuse to him.


 

[Brokenmind]

I have a quarter century of shame, 23 years with my wife, and another 2 years in a relationship very much like yours is/was with an exgf. 

SD during the 23 years how far in was it till you became so well versed in dealing with your wife? For me I never did in 12 years. Once she got diagnosed 4 years in I spent the next 6 years researching the hell out of bpd trying to find a way to deal with her to no avail until the last 2 years where I gave up.

once you obtained the knowledge of good and evil, which is a very eye opening experience (of understanding of BPD), only to be cast from paradise (the relationship) for once obtaining this knowledge.

For me I feel I have obtained this knowledge, but I still dont think it would of done me any good if I was still with her and I certainly dont want to through another relationship like that again with someone with bpd.

I just want normal love, I dont even miss that idealisation love because even when I had it, it used to feel uncomfortable for me. 

 

You are recovering from the trauma bond (addiction) to her.  As long as the good days become more plentiful, and the bad days become less you are on the road to recovery.

Thats my hope SD and I cant thank you enough for helping me on this road.

Ill keep posting with updates on how I feel as again I feel anyone reading this may help them in some way and may even encourage them to open up on here as well.

[once removed]

more than I'm getting from therapy.

what are your goals in therapy? how is it going?

[Brokenmind]

Hi Once removed.

what are your goals in therapy? how is it going?

Honestly I never really considered it like that. I went to therapy in the midst of probably the darkest moments of my life. She ghosted me again after demanding money of me so finding out about the cheating and the extent of her lies really put me in a dark place.

So now I’m not in that dark place I suppose my goals in therapy:

1)  is to help me rediscover who I was before

And

2) to help me with my character flaws (too agreeable, avoid conflicts, people pleasing and low self worth)

If I’m honest it’s not going great. I’ve never had therapy before so I’m going to give it a chance. It just feels like I’m paying to do what I do on this site except in person. I’m 7 sessions in and I’m not hearing anything back from my therapist.

Just me explaining how I feel and her repeating it in her own words and empathising in how I feel.

It’s nice to talk to her don’t get me wrong but I’m not sure after 7 sessions.

Is this normal in therapy?

[tina7868]

Just me explaining how I feel and her repeating it in her own words and empathising in how I feel.

It’s nice to talk to her don’t get me wrong but I’m not sure after 7 sessions.

Is this normal in therapy?

Hi Brokenmind! I thought I could chime in since I have, over the years, had different therapists, since I would use the free services through my school.

I have learned that every therapist has their own style, and, just like other types of relationships, sometimes personalities or approaches don`t `click`. Also, different therapists are more experienced in certain areas.  What I found works for me is having clear goals outlined from the get-go, and being given exercises that I can apply in my every day life. All that to say, don`t feel too discouraged if it doesn`t feel like the right match. You could talk to your T about changing approaches, or look into talking to someone who is more experienced in the areas you are looking for.

[once removed]

1)  is to help me rediscover who I was before

2) to help me with my character flaws (too agreeable, avoid conflicts, people pleasing and low self worth)

this is important. a therapist generally will keep the focus on you, so for example, they may listen about an ex, but youre the patient. so these are good goals.  

It just feels like I’m paying to do what I do on this site except in person. I’m 7 sessions in and I’m not hearing anything back from my therapist.

Just me explaining how I feel and her repeating it in her own words and empathising in how I feel.

have you explained this (and your goals) to your therapist? it can be a therapists default mode to primarily listen, and to validate you, if theyre under the impression thats what youre there for.

as the patient in the therapeutic relationship, its important to know what sort of therapy, and what sort of therapist youre looking for, your goals, and communicate them. a good therapist can synthesize that feedback, all sorts of it (ive known people in therapy that would request to read the notes the therapist was taking), and if the fit isnt right, they can help find it.

[SaltyDawg]

BM,

Thanks for responding... more comments...

I would never betray her trust and tell my ex. I did indeed feel like she wants what is best for my ex's son.

Unfortunately this cousin is married to someone who is physically abusive to her so yes she is a people pleaser. I still get annoyed when my ex forced me to be friendly to her husband as I can never respect a man that does that.

Both women and men who are physically abusive, this is a major trait of being BPD, more so for women, but it is for men as well.  Even though this is in hindsight, the BPD apple doesn't fall to far from the tree as either being the borderline, or caring for someone who might be.
 

He turns 16 this year and I love him like my own. He is a victim in all this more so than me.

I do have a worry that he has been damaged by his Mother and what this may entail as he turns into a man. Also what this may mean for my own healing and future. But like I said previously I believe in unconditional  love for your children and I feel this love for him. So if he does want to move in with me I will say yes.

The damage is a distinct possibility, so the likelihood of him having the same issue is high.  If he is removed from the situation, as most mind develop until the mid-20's there is a chance you can reverse and undo some of this damage.  However, please be mindful, that most damage occurs before 5 years old, that is why the mental ability is often arrested there in borderlines.

When I gave her the ultimatum of getting therapy we stopped being sexual, I did have a full check then for peace of mind and thank goodness it came back clear.

I'm glad it came back negative for you as well.

I only stopped using protection due to the fact she started accusing me of cheating as I wanted to wear a condom so I don't give her an STI!

 

When a pwBPD accuses you of doing something, more often than not (there are exceptions to this rule) they are guilty of the very thing they are accusing you of doing.

Oh I'm sure that is driving her crazy. The fact he was also flirting physically in front of her as well. She is the most jealous person I ever met.

She hid it well during the idealisation stage aside from passive aggressive remarks which were more complimentary. example:
"I know that girl at work likes you, the w##re."

I would reply that I would never cheat on her and this women does'nt even like me and she is good woman who loves her husband.
She would then play the compliment and pity me line:

"Its just that your so perfect I know every woman wants you. Plus all these girls have got money to make themselves look good"  

Years later during an argument:
"I know you cheated on me with that w##re in your old job, she was a "good" women was'nt she, so go be with her instead as she was so f'ing "good".

So she is likely doing this now with him. Obsessively going over the comments page and seething when he replies to women with hearts etc. This will be used in force in the future if she feels she has him secured and when she feels deregulated or justify her own actions.

My pwBPD has accused me of having affairs with the playdate moms, and a therapist too.  Here is an article on jealousy with pwBPD:  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/from-freud-to-fluoxetine/202310/pathological-jealousy-in-borderline-personality-disorder

SD Im getting more out of your replies than I getting from therapy. I should be paying you! You seem to understand what I'm going through and what is actually happening but more importantly how it feels for someone like me who has these traits that attract people like my ex.

I am not a licensed therapist.  However, I do understand, as anyone who has dealt with a pwBPD, has actual real life experience [I raise my hand timidly] with a borderline - as such, I can be a peer mentor as I am still learning about it myself, and the best way to learn is by sharing and articulating my own personal experience on the matter.  It sucks, I wish this had never happened, but it has, so I am dealing with it, and this is my way of dealing with it, by helping others.

It does feel good but also bad at the same time. Its a bit like a smoker who somehow only now understands how bad they are for you. Its a bit late you've damaged your lungs for 12 years and those scars wont heal, but at least your not doing more damage and your health will get better but will never be as good as it could of been if you never smoked.  

It actually helped hearing it as like you say it provides no doubts about her true nature. I think with yours its a different kettle of fish all together compared to my ex and it shows how much strength of character you have to have not lost who you are thus far.

The scars will always be there; however, they will not be as raw as they are now - talking from personal experience of the ex NPD/BPD gf.  With my current BPD wife, I have gotten lost; however, it was through individual therapy I found myself again, and now I have a clear understanding of what is going on, I have a set of emotional tools that allows me to manage the situation.

I think I may have jumped the boat on this. I joined a dating app on the recommendation of a friend (never used one before). I thought having female company may distract me from thinking about her. But I think I made a mistake and its too soon for me.

I have had a lot of "likes" and 3 stood out. First was a dentist who was nice but she showed some red flags (kept calling me a dream although we just met and spent the night complaining about her abusive family and friends , I don't think I managed to say anything about myself the entire evening!) so I ended it nicely

2nd never turned up and yes that did get me down that night.

3rd I only spoken to on a the phone and funnily enough she is a therapist herself! We've been speaking only so far but they for hours, the first call we alone we spoke for 4 hours straight.

It felt nice just have a normal conversation and its been so long since I flirted with anyone. I have told her straight that I just come out of a relationship and she said so had she and we both want to take it real slow, just casual dating.

SD do you think this is a mistake even though Ive been clear with her but I personally feel like Im kind of rebounding just to make myself feel better and should recover fully before dating again even if that takes years.

My rebound was my wife.  While a much better situation, still a dysfunctional one.  It is good to reconnect with a normal person; however, you need to be very careful about bringing your baggage along and dumping it on a potential future partner - save the dumping for here and/or your therapist.

Normally I would recommend, waiting a bit longer; however, as you have already entered the arena...  #3 sounds like it might have potential; however, do take it slowly, and be friends first.  #1, I agree with your assessment.  #2, a no show, so who knows.  I am not here to tell you what to do, or not to do, that is entirely up to you.  I would caution you not to use #3 as your own therapist, but keep that with a therapist.  If she asks, share using BIFF, but don't volunteer this information.

Problem Im still getting SD is that anger sometimes gets me into ruminating before i can use it for something positive. I sometimes suddenly have a thought about something she did that was so abhorrent and like a rabbit hole I seem to head deeper and deeper and suddenly realise that Ive wasted 3-5 hours of my day!

I would suggest talking with your own therapist on this.
  

Thats spot on as to where my shame is coming from. I feel duped, like she used my morals to keep me from leaving so many times. It was always threats of suicide, threat of never seeing her son again, even threats to me directly if she saw me with anyone else after. I actually feared leaving her myself.
 
Thank you for sharing that SD. Yes, there are a lot of similarities from what you wrote. The suicidal ideation, valuation/devaluation of friends, the mood swings and rages, her son does that.

It breaks my heart that I couldn't shield him from her. I know she damaged him the way she raised and abused him and he has similar issues to her. But he does have a balance to it, him and his Mother really trigger each other. There was no balance.

From age 3 to say 11 they were either completely enmeshed almost like he was a new born baby again with deep deep hugs in bed involving the whole body and her staring deeply into his eyes and he would make baby noises up until 11. Then to extreme rage and anger which always led to her saying the most disgusting hurtful things imaginable to him. He learnt to scream back eventually in the same manner as her Then after a few hours it will go to the other extreme.

This is another source of my shame as I felt powerless to stop this behaviour. Raising her son was always her way or no way and therefore staying with her for so long makes me me feel like I was complicit in her abuse to him.

There is definitely some issues going on there with her son.  So, if and when he asks to move in or runs away to be with you, make sure you have some kind of plan, perhaps take one session in the near future with your own therapist to come up with one, after talking about #3 with your therapist.

SD during the 23 years how far in was it till you became so well versed in dealing with your wife? For me I never did in 12 years. Once she got diagnosed 4 years in I spent the next 6 years researching the hell out of bpd trying to find a way to deal with her to no avail until the last 2 years where I gave up.

I started individual therapy June 2022 and was first introduced to BPD by my therapist in the very first session with him, I started to pushback against my wife in August 2022, and I really didn't figure things out enough until March of 2023, and it is still a work in progress, as I am still learning - progress has slowed, and I am still figuring it out.

For me I feel I have obtained this knowledge, but I still dont think it would of done me any good if I was still with her and I certainly dont want to through another relationship like that again with someone with bpd.

Unfortunately I agree with you, as your ex has a strong HPD component in her (comorbidity), and is unfaithful - I have come to the conclusion that borderlines that cheat unless they want to change, they will not.  Whereas my pwBPDw, can be persuaded/manipulated into doing the right thing, a HPD won't unless they want to change.

Details on HPD can be found here:  https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric-disorders/personality-disorders/histrionic-personality-disorder-hpd

I just want normal love, I dont even miss that idealisation love because even when I had it, it used to feel uncomfortable for me.

 

I enjoyed the love bombing, and I still do.  I need to learn how to accept normal love, not exaggerated idealised love.  This is still a work in progress for me, it would seem that you are better at this bit that I am.

 

Thats my hope SD and I cant thank you enough for helping me on this road.

It's my hope too.  You are quite welcome.  I will look forward to any and all progress, and if you have a setback, I am interested in those too, as I want to learn.

Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

So now I’m not in that dark place I suppose my goals in therapy:

1)  is to help me rediscover who I was before

And

2) to help me with my character flaws (too agreeable, avoid conflicts, people pleasing and low self worth)

If I’m honest it’s not going great. I’ve never had therapy before so I’m going to give it a chance. It just feels like I’m paying to do what I do on this site except in person. I’m 7 sessions in and I’m not hearing anything back from my therapist.

Just me explaining how I feel and her repeating it in her own words and empathising in how I feel.

It’s nice to talk to her don’t get me wrong but I’m not sure after 7 sessions.

Is this normal in therapy?

Yes, this is normal therapy, unless you take charge.

For me, I will make a list of prioritized questions for my therapist, and then go down and do each one until I run out of time.

Based on our conversations, here are some suggestions on what to talk about, talk about dating app girl #3, talk about the remote possibility of her son running away to you some time this year after he turns 16 and is legal for him to do so, and how to support him, in addition to the two goals that you mentioned, which are really good talking points as well.  And anything else you have questions on about yourself.

Triage your goals, and prioritize which one is the most important to you in order to the least important.

Regarding your character flaws, you might want to look at this list, to see if any of these resonate with you - let me know, and we can talk more about these ones:  https://coda.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Patterns-Characteristics-2011.pdf

Take care.

SD

[Brokenmind]

Hey Tina7968

Thank you for your post

You could talk to your T about changing approaches, or look into talking to someone who is more experienced in the areas you are looking for.

I will do this in my next session, my T did say when I contacted her that she has experienced in these matters but I fell like all I do is talk about my ex and I get a response which is either her sympathising with me and/or compares it to her own experiences (she had a BPD ex) which I find a bit odd as its almost like we are both focusing on them and not me.

Im not actually sure what I want from my T. I would like her to be like a personal trainer in a gym, as in push and motivate me and give me healthy advice on how to stop ruminating about her and focus on me.

[Brokenmind]

Hey Once Removed

have you explained this (and your goals) to your therapist? it can be a therapists default mode to primarily listen, and to validate you, if theyre under the impression thats what youre there for.

As I mentioned to Tina7986,  all I do is talk about my ex and I get a response which is either her sympathising with me and/or compares it to her own experiences (she had a BPD ex) which I find a bit odd as its almost like we are both focusing on them and not me.

Do you think thats normal? I dont seem to be getting any advice on how to deal with how I feel. Dont get me wrong its nice when my T empathises and says its understandable to feel hurt, angry etc but when she starts talking about her experiences I feel like we are just focusing on them and why they did what they did rather than focusing on how I deal with my depression and emotional well being.

[Brokenmind]

Hey SD

The damage is a distinct possibility, so the likelihood of him having the same issue is high.  If he is removed from the situation, as most mind develop until the mid-20's there is a chance you can reverse and undo some of this damage.  However, please be mindful, that most damage occurs before 5 years old, that is why the mental ability is often arrested there in borderlines.

This is what I feared and felt helpless during the the last 12 years. I felt like I was all he had and I remember trying so much to show him stable love and I hope my influence having someone he could talk and vent to.

See the problem I had was that I gave up so much of myself doing this. I was walking on eggshells, emotionally blackmailed and abused by her with daily tantrums, jealousy and suicidal thought but I also had to manage their relationship as their tantrums were so similar in intensity. Her son rarely directed it at me but it was heartbreaking to watch.

When she was verbally abusing him it was the only times I actually lost my temper with her, as in I would get really angry. I would internalise that anger when she abused me, even when she cheated, but I couldnt hold it when he was being attacked. I said things to her that I regret saying even if it was the truth, such as calling her an abusive mother. Looking back it amazes me that her response was not even of denial but am accusation that now she thinks Im going to tell the authorities to take her son away (something her "abusive" ex tried to do)

When a pwBPD accuses you of doing something, more often than not (there are exceptions to this rule) they are guilty of the very thing they are accusing you of doing.

This was really prevalent in my ex. She would also generally say this about herself the opposite of who she was. Like she always hated cheats and would call them every name under the sun, she called her sister a prostitute when she cheated on her bf. But then she would cheat. There were times she said really disgusting racist and homophobic things but when I got angry she would get angrier saying she doesnt mean all of them and the fact she loves her nieces and brother proves that.

My pwBPD has accused me of having affairs with the playdate moms, and a therapist too.

 
It so exhausting when it happens daily over many years. I remember when it started with self pity jealousy I felt almost flattered that she feared losing me, then when the accusation started getting aggressive and vile, I went from disbelief to dread then to this is driving me insane. It consumed all my time. I mean for 6 years I didnt even attend work christmas functions to avoid accusations and she would never let me do anything on my own outside of work. It was literally "Im going to see my friend today his feeling down", her response "Can I come?". I would then explain my friend just needs me and then she would accuse me of cheating and insist I stay on the phone to her the whole way and until I knock on the door she can hear his voice! Even then she would call me every 20min. I still for the life of me dont know why I accepted ALL of this!!!
 

Normally I would recommend, waiting a bit longer; however, as you have already entered the arena...  #3 sounds like it might have potential; however, do take it slowly, and be friends first.  #1, I agree with your assessment.  #2, a no show, so who knows.  I am not here to tell you what to do, or not to do, that is entirely up to you.  I would caution you not to use #3 as your own therapist, but keep that with a therapist.  If she asks, share using BIFF, but don't volunteer this information.

 

Good advice thank you. To be honest I thought if i causally date it may distract me, (I feel guilty even writing that) and if I was clear with them Im not leading anyone on. I actually have a date with her tonight (Valentines).

We have been talking for hours on end every day but last nights conversation was a bit of a shock. Now she had already asked me about my last relationship and all I said was ill tell her more about it once we get to know each other but its very recent and raw (she said she is ok with this and she is in the same boat).

Last night she spoke a lot about what she went through with her ex. I was in disbelief when she told me her ex was disordered and has bpd! I could tell she had anger about it still. It was in the context of explaining to me she will no longer put up with red flags from guys anymore. I then told her my ex was actually diagnosed and the 12 years was abusive.

We both agreed at this point to not talk about our exes but it I feel like Ive met someone with very similar flaws to me. We both agree that we take things slow and Im happy with that.
 

I enjoyed the love bombing, and I still do.  I need to learn how to accept normal love, not exaggerated idealised love.  This is still a work in progress for me, it would seem that you are better at this bit that I am.

 
Dont get me wrong SD I loved the love bombing, I thought it was genuine for years. But I was never comfortable with it, my gut would scream at me. The fact is it was something Ive always yearned for which I never had previously. When I was younger I always saw girls who were so in love with their partners and wished I could have that as well. My exs previously were never like that so when I met my ex and she loved bomb me I thought "finally! so this is how it feels to be really wanted".

It made me ignore all the red flags and forgive her each time.

 

For me, I will make a list of prioritized questions for my therapist, and then go down and do each one until I run out of time.

Ill do this for the next session, I never thought to plan ahead.

 

Regarding your character flaws, you might want to look at this list, to see if any of these resonate with you - let me know, and we can talk more about these ones:  https://coda.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Patterns-Characteristics-2011.pdf

Thanks again SD Ill check the links out

[Brokenmind]

Hey SD

I went through the character flaws link for CODA you sent me, Some resonated and some were utterly repugnant to me:

• minimize, alter, or deny how they truly feel.
• mask pain in various ways such as isolation
• are embarrassed to receive recognition, praise, or gifts.
• value others’ approval of their thinking, feelings, and behavior over their own.
• do not perceive themselves as lovable or worthwhile persons.
• have difficulty admitting a mistake.
• are extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
• compromise their own values and integrity to avoid rejection or anger.
• put aside their own interests in order to do what others want.
• are hypervigilant regarding the feelings of others and take on those feelings.
• are afraid to express their beliefs, opinions, and feelings when they differ from those of others.
• accept sexual attention when they want love.
• give up their truth to gain the approval of others or to avoid change.
• freely offer advice and direction without being asked.
• demand that their needs be met by others.
• use charm and charisma to convince others of their capacity to be caring and compassionate.
• use indirect or evasive communication to avoid conflict or confrontation.
• suppress their feelings or needs to avoid feeling vulnerable.

It was a sobering read to say the least.

[SaltyDawg]

I will do this in my next session, my T did say when I contacted her that she has experienced in these matters but I fell like all I do is talk about my ex and I get a response which is either her sympathising with me and/or compares it to her own experiences (she had a BPD ex) which I find a bit odd as its almost like we are both focusing on them and not me.

If she has a BPDx, yes, she has personal (peer) experience in these matters which may not effectively translate well into what you should do for yourself.  For me, I tend to focus on my wife's behaviors first, how to put out the fire, how to manage a new dynamic that I hadn't seen before, before I will even focus on myself - a good therapist will follow your lead and gravitate in that direction as they are there to work on you.  For my therapist, when I focus too much on my wife, she will try and redirect me towards working on myself instead.
 

Im not actually sure what I want from my T. I would like her to be like a personal trainer in a gym, as in push and motivate me and give me healthy advice on how to stop ruminating about her and focus on me.

I too am that way, I personally push 'self-care' as this is a universal concept and is good for whomever does it, and I found I myself had neglected my own self-care sacrificing myself for my wife's wellbeing - a martyr.  Specifically ask your therapist to treat you in this manner, with 'firmness' and specific 'direction' - basically tell her the very same thing that you expressed to Tina, in bold above.

Stopping the ruminating... I can share is extremely difficult, if not impossible to do; however, the best thing I have personally found is to find distractions in the form of healthy coping mechanisms of self-care to fill my mind with a different purpose.  I previously gave you my exercise example, also getting lost in a good book, tv series, movie are also things I personally use to do this.

I will respond to a few more posts, in a separate replies.

Take care.

SD

[once removed]

As I mentioned to Tina7986,  all I do is talk about my ex and I get a response which is either her sympathising with me and/or compares it to her own experiences (she had a BPD ex) which I find a bit odd as its almost like we are both focusing on them and not me.

Do you think thats normal?

what youre describing is one particular style of support (or one part of an overall approach) called relating.

it is part of (a great deal of) what you see on this very board: you share your story, and someone relates to you by sharing theirs. ideally, you feel less alone, you feel understood, you get perspective.

it isnt for everyone, or all the time. i know that for me, at least when im in crisis, im too needy, and i dont have the bandwidth to spread my attention to someone elses story. i need the spotlight in order to feel heard.

all I do is talk about my ex

it really depends on what you mean by "all i do is talk about my ex".

when people show up at therapy to talk about someone else, especially in the early stages, theres not a great deal for a therapist to do but to actively listen. sometimes the patient needs to get it out before theyre ready to switch the focus, and a good therapist will recognize this. sometimes, thats really all the patient is there for...to talk it out (vent) and then theyre done.

if youre wanting feedback about your ex (or your therapist perceives that), your therapist has never met them, and cant really offer that. if youre wanting feedback about you, its important to communicate that.

remember, your therapist is assessing your needs, and going off of what youre communicating or not communicating.

I dont seem to be getting any advice on how to deal with how I feel.

be clear about this. what you are describing are "coping tools". ask for coping tools. if you scroll up, youll see a menu at the top that says "Tools". these are coping tools. if you check out the library, there are lots of workshops and articles that are full of them.

most of us came into our relationships with poor coping skills; we coped poorly during the relationship, and we coped poorly after it. learning to replace those old coping methods with healthier ones can help us become far more resilient in life and in love. its a good point of focus in your recovery.

I went through the character flaws link for CODA

this is not a list of character flaws, per se, and i would encourage you to look at it a little bit differently.

it is a list of beliefs and ways of coping. they describe how you deal with stress and relationship stress. they speak to how you see yourself, and how you relate to others.

we all develop coping mechanisms to help us deal with psychological stress as we grow. sometimes, some of those coping mechanisms, the older we get (as we become adults), stop serving us, or create problems. sometimes, even when that happens, theyve served us for so long, become so ingrained, they can be hard, even scary, to let go of, and replace, but worth it, when we do.

in other words, it isnt that you are "bad", and that you need to "remove these bad things". its that you need to see them, assess them, understand them fully and honestly, and understand how they mix with the people you bond with. some of them may be bad habits that you do want to stop, or change. some of them are things that may be neither "good" nor "bad", but may be more compatible with one person, and not compatible with another. some of them may be things about you that are unlikely to change all that much, but that you should be fully aware of how they will interact with others. for example, in romantic relationships, ive had a history of overpursuing...too much, too soon. it isnt necessarily something that is "wrong" with me, but i did need to understand that it can make it less likely for me to be successful in love; its a turn off. i did need to learn to recognize it, learn to read others better and how they perceive it, how to shift away from it, how to better cope with my anxieties.

but i still have those tendencies and anxieties. they are fairly ingrained (things that are ingrained can improve with practice). the difference is that i can see how they were impacting me, and im better equipped to switch gears. people with codependent tendencies, while we can be highly in tune with ourselves about lots of things, we dont tend to have the most objective view of ourselves, or how others see us. so much of recovery is about growing and maturing in that regard; learning, not only that better choices exist, but learning how to make them.

PS. any of those on that list would be good topics to discuss with your therapist.

[SaltyDawg]

This is what I feared and felt helpless during the the last 12 years. I felt like I was all he had and I remember trying so much to show him stable love and I hope my influence having someone he could talk and vent to.

See the problem I had was that I gave up so much of myself doing this. I was walking on eggshells, emotionally blackmailed and abused by her with daily tantrums, jealousy and suicidal thought but I also had to manage their relationship as their tantrums were so similar in intensity. Her son rarely directed it at me but it was heartbreaking to watch.

When she was verbally abusing him it was the only times I actually lost my temper with her, as in I would get really angry. I would internalise that anger when she abused me, even when she cheated, but I couldn't hold it when he was being attacked. I said things to her that I regret saying even if it was the truth, such as calling her an abusive mother. Looking back it amazes me that her response was not even of denial but am accusation that now she thinks I'm going to tell the authorities to take her son away (something her "abusive" ex tried to do)

BM,

Her son, is very lucky to have you as his advocate.  When and more importantly "if" he were to come into your life again, you will have a huge responsibility.  I would recommend first and foremost, get him into his own individual therapy. 

I will share when my son was in individual therapy, there was little progress for the first two years after the therapist listened to my wife's perspective; however, once I discovered, and eventually shared the BPD dynamic about my wife with his therapist, the therapy became extremely effective, and my son made more advances in two months, that he did in the first two years - almost like flipping a lightswitch on him.  At the same time, I also had communicated similar sentiments to my wife's therapist (it is a one-way communication to them) and my wife also made great progress in reducing her anger at the same time.  Perhaps they fed off each other, I don't know, and I don't care, as the end result was a whole lot more peace in the house along with significant improvement on their respective anger management issues. 

My son and wife had similar intensities; however, they had differences in duration of the rages.  Our son was typically 30 minutes to 45 minutes with extremes being 15 minutes and 90 minutes; whereas, my wife used to be 2-4 hours were typical, and extremes being 45 minutes to 7 hours - due to my wife's new dynamic of controlling most of her rages, this is now shifted to a much more muted mood swing, still very impactful, but it typically last for the remainder of the day, and if severe enough will span two wake-up cycles.  My son would recognize his tantrum and was remorseful and apologized for it; whereas, my wife thought she was right, and there was nothing to apologize for, no matter how wrong she might have been.

This was really prevalent in my ex. She would also generally say this about herself the opposite of who she was. Like she always hated cheats and would call them every name under the sun, she called her sister a prostitute when she cheated on her bf. But then she would cheat. There were times she said really disgusting racist and homophobic things but when I got angry she would get angrier saying she doesnt mean all of them and the fact she loves her nieces and brother proves that.

It so exhausting when it happens daily over many years. I remember when it started with self pity jealousy I felt almost flattered that she feared losing me, then when the accusation started getting aggressive and vile, I went from disbelief to dread then to this is driving me insane. It consumed all my time. I mean for 6 years I didnt even attend work christmas functions to avoid accusations and she would never let me do anything on my own outside of work. It was literally "Im going to see my friend today his feeling down", her response "Can I come?". I would then explain my friend just needs me and then she would accuse me of cheating and insist I stay on the phone to her the whole way and until I knock on the door she can hear his voice! Even then she would call me every 20min. I still for the life of me dont know why I accepted ALL of this!!!

My wife accused me of cheating from from time to time, thankfully this wasn't consistent and frequent, as I had isolated myself from friends and acquaintances outside of work, I did not give her much opportunity to make these outrageous accusations of infidelity.  However, this isolation, which took over a period of several year, the better part of a decade, is probably the worst aspect to me on how my wife's behaviors have negatively affected me.  This 'temporary paranoia' / 'disassociation' symptom is perhaps the more perplexing one that really drives home the nature of the illness.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, as I am still stuck), my wife has a good moral compass, and as far as I can tell has not cheated on me, I even looked from time to time.  However, other behaviors she has accused me of, that she is doing, this is called 'transference' where she transfers her bad behaviors, or more simply 'projection'
  

Good advice thank you. To be honest I thought if i causally date it may distract me, (I feel guilty even writing that) and if I was clear with them Im not leading anyone on. I actually have a date with her tonight (Valentines).

We have been talking for hours on end every day but last nights conversation was a bit of a shock. Now she had already asked me about my last relationship and all I said was ill tell her more about it once we get to know each other but its very recent and raw (she said she is ok with this and she is in the same boat).

Last night she spoke a lot about what she went through with her ex. I was in disbelief when she told me her ex was disordered and has bpd! I could tell she had anger about it still. It was in the context of explaining to me she will no longer put up with red flags from guys anymore. I then told her my ex was actually diagnosed and the 12 years was abusive.

We both agreed at this point to not talk about our exes but it I feel like Ive met someone with very similar flaws to me. We both agree that we take things slow and Im happy with that.

Dont get me wrong SD I loved the love bombing, I thought it was genuine for years. But I was never comfortable with it, my gut would scream at me. The fact is it was something Ive always yearned for which I never had previously. When I was younger I always saw girls who were so in love with their partners and wished I could have that as well. My exs previously were never like that so when I met my ex and she loved bomb me I thought "finally! so this is how it feels to be really wanted".

It made me ignore all the red flags and forgive her each time.

Congratulations on your date this evening, I hope that it goes well for you.  I would urge a bit of caution, especially as both of you have already revealed to each other that your respective Ex's both have BPD - this is a very big for both of you, and I suspect the temptation to talk excessively about his will be high - and if you do talk about BPD, oversharing is likely as both of you still have 'anger' about this issue.  Both of you are used to high intensity emotions with these types of relationships.  If channeled in a good direction, you can both have all of the positive aspects of a BPD relationship (the high intensity admiration which will very much feel like love bombing) without most of the more damaging negative aspects (the rages and being split black) - it is important to be extremely self-aware of every aspect of this relationship.  However, and this is a big 'however,' it also can be just as damaging as a BPD relationship, if each person has not worked on their own issues and things go badly - if I were you, I would definitely bring this up topic with your own therapist and proceed accordingly.

I think you and her agree to take things slowly, and I agree wholeheartedly with your intent.  Focus on your passions, your work, your hobbies, your life goals, and also take time to learn her passions, what kind of therapy work she does (exercise caution on this one if her therapist roll focuses on mental health; however, if it is other kinds of therapy, such as a voice/occupation/etc. type therapist, and then ask plenty of questions from a perspective of curiosity), her life goals, and whatever else she wants to talk about.  Since I suspect you might be out of practice, you can google, things to talk about on dates.

Take care.

SD

P.S.  I'm thinking of splitting off the next topic of codependent patterns into a separate thread, as it will likely generate some interest; however, I will discuss, what you have highlighted about yourself in my next post here on this thread with a link to a new thread about my codependent/caretaker patterns.  I am still thinking about how I would like to approach this, but I will definitely post about it by tomorrow.  In the meantime, once removed has made some great observations on the codependent patterns and characteristics that you have identified in yourself.

[Brokenmind]

Hi Once Removed

Thank you again

it really depends on what you mean by "all i do is talk about my ex".

What I mean is the first 3/4 sessions it was all about my ex and what happened and how it ended. Which is understandable. But I thought now my therapist knows the "story" and how I feel I felt we would start talking about how I move forward than continually dwell on my ex.

I did tell that I would like to talk about my childhood where I think my issues stem from so I made it clear what I want; but she kind of batted that aside and said we will get to that in later sessions and we carry on talking about my ex with her agreeing how bad it was.

but i still have those tendencies and anxieties. they are fairly ingrained (things that are ingrained can improve with practice). the difference is that i can see how they were impacting me, and im better equipped to switch gears. people with codependent tendencies, while we can be highly in tune with ourselves about lots of things, we dont tend to have the most objective view of ourselves, or how others see us. so much of recovery is about growing and maturing in that regard; learning, not only that better choices exist, but learning how to make them.

I can see that its very ingrained in myself and admit that its only now I see how its impacted me. I just feel ridiculous that Ive only just seen it at aged 46. For me I was always surrounded by a supportive family, friends and had stable relationships with people who didnt take advantage of these traits (and put up with them too).

It was only aged 34 when i met my ex that my life just unravelled. What gets me down is how much my gut and instincts were screaming at me and even when the abuse got really bad how I get doubling down and lost myself.

I will take your advice and make it clear to my T. I was actually thinking of sending an email to her prior to the next session as I find I can articulate what I want better. For example the sessions always starts with me being asked "so how have you been feeling since we last spoke". Obviously with all my emotions I go into a monologue of how I felt or if anything has happened (like a phone call from my ex cousin) this inevitably  leads to talking about past events with my ex and then she empathises and compares her own experiences and then it ends, so I feel like i get swept up into the narrative of my past rather than talking about coping mechanisms.

[Brokenmind]

Hey SD

If she has a BPDx, yes, she has personal (peer) experience in these matters which may not effectively translate well into what you should do for yourself. 

This is kind of my feeling too SD.

Stopping the ruminating... I can share is extremely difficult, if not impossible to do; however, the best thing I have personally found is to find distractions

Its so hard to not have that thought pop in your head. Also it doesn't help that I keep wanting to look at the youtube channel to see if what she is commenting to him. I hate it because it makes me feel emotional and insecure.

My son would recognize his tantrum and was remorseful and apologized for it; whereas, my wife thought she was right, and there was nothing to apologize for, no matter how wrong she might have been.

Thats a good sign that he is remorseful, something her son unfortunately hasnt learnt.

This 'temporary paranoia' / 'disassociation' symptom is perhaps the more perplexing one that really drives home the nature of the illness.

This is what I never understood, my ex paranoia was daily. Thats not an exaggeration, it was at least 3 texts a day where she would accuse me of cheating and at least a handful of suicidal threats per week.

I always excused it as, I have a high end job and work with females who, in her opinion, have more "value" than her; so with her being unemployed and uneducated she felt insecure.

Congratulations on your date this evening, I hope that it goes well for you.  I would urge a bit of caution, especially as both of you have already revealed to each other that your respective Ex's both have BPD - this is a very big for both of you, and I suspect the temptation to talk excessively about his will be high - and if you do talk about BPD, oversharing is likely as both of you still have 'anger' about this issue.  Both of you are used to high intensity emotions with these types of relationships.  If channeled in a good direction, you can both have all of the positive aspects of a BPD relationship (the high intensity admiration which will very much feel like love bombing) without most of the more damaging negative aspects (the rages and being split black) - it is important to be extremely self-aware of every aspect of this relationship.  However, and this is a big 'however,' it also can be just as damaging as a BPD relationship, if each person has not worked on their own issues and things go badly - if I were you, I would definitely bring this up topic with your own therapist and proceed accordingly.

I can share with you how it went (and also how good you are in your analysis)

I booked a nice restaurant in central London and we met. I was very nervous as its my first date in over a decade.

She is very easy to talk to and we spoke about a varied number of topics. She is like me in that she avoids conflicts and tend to people please so we both kind of laughed at this. There was a slight bit of love bombing element to it from both her and me and some oversharing which I didnt mind. We both have a very similar childhood upbringing

Then she did start talking about her ex. She did say sorry for bringing him up again which i told her its understandable. Then she got a bit angry when talking about him. She had  shame that given her qualification she fell for the manipulation and didnt see she was in trauma bonded relationship. So like me there is still anger and most likely feelings for him still.

I didnt reply with my own examples (although i wanted to) and she picked up on that and said she wont bring him up again. Aside from that we spoke a lot and I found myself smiling home.

It just felt nice to go out for a meal and not get into a big argument where we cut the night short after causing a scene.


Also by the way she is forensic psychiatrist, so I can send her your brothers way if you like .

P.S.  I'm thinking of splitting off the next topic of codependent patterns into a separate thread, as it will likely generate some interest; however, I will discuss, what you have highlighted about yourself in my next post here on this thread with a link to a new thread about my codependent/caretaker patterns.  I am still thinking about how I would like to approach this, but I will definitely post about it by tomorrow.  In the meantime, once removed has made some great observations on the codependent patterns and characteristics that you have identified in yourself.

Please do, unless something happens I will cut down on posting on this thread as I think its long enough!! I do want to contribute on other threads as well, I feel, although not as versed as you that my experiences can help others on here. Im apprehensive about giving advice but I can empathise with them.

[SaltyDawg]

BM

This is kind of my feeling too SD.

Regarding your T, you can ask her if she has a timetable on what you want to do, and reiterate what would like to do 1., 2., 3. first.  If she disagrees, ask for a brief explanation why she thinks this is not a good idea.  My current T will work as fast or as slow as I want.  I can cover an enormous amount of material with a counseling style called "motivational interviewing" - while most do not do well with this style, and therapists use it only if their client is emotionally strong enough to tolerate it, as it is a lot less sympathetic than more traditional styles.  This style would be closer to the 'fitness trainer' method that you expressed in a previous post than other styles.

Its so hard to not have that thought pop in your head. Also it doesn't help that I keep wanting to look at the youtube channel to see if what she is commenting to him. I hate it because it makes me feel emotional and insecure.

It sounds like you are a 'glutton for punishment' - the only purpose watching these videos will serve is a bad reminder of her true nature - if you do watch (I don't recommend) it will only make you more upset than you already are.  I would suggest only to watch these videos if and when you decide to fall for a recycle / H00VER attempt with her as a nasty reminder of her true nature.

Thats a good sign that he is remorseful, something her son unfortunately hasnt learnt.

I too am glad my son is remorseful and apologetic when he has his own anger episodes.  These episodes have come less and less - I am hoping he will just 'grow out of it' as he is at an age where that can happen and is still pre-pubescent (late bloomer).  However, if and when her son enters your orbit, you may not be so lucky, and individual therapy for him, on a weekly basis until his behaviours become normalized would be recommended.

This is what I never understood, my ex paranoia was daily. Thats not an exaggeration, it was at least 3 texts a day where she would accuse me of cheating and at least a handful of suicidal threats per week.

A previous dBPD-Therapist confided in me she would do the divorce threats almost on a weekly basis to her husband and have the cheating allegations 2-3 times per week, some of which were founded, as she would show me FB posts (where her H would compliment another woman) and a nasty e-mail from a lady that her husband was hitting on and asking her to make it stop.  Mine would only do it if she was really stressed.  Each borderline is different; however, whatever pattern they initially display, will give you a pretty good indication of how it will continue, it will not change much unless there is therapeutic intervention and/or major changes in their stress level from any source.

However, I am curious as to how her suicidal threats on a weekly basis would manifest?  Mine were only when she would hold a 10" (25 cm) kitchen knife to her wrists, or a pair of 12" (33cm) old-school scissors fashioned as a dagger against her chest, or try to swallow her heart medication pills, but these were few and far between 6 in the span of two decades.  Each time she did this, I grabbed the instrument of death and removed them from her hands, and she more often than not complained, "you are not supposed to behave that way". 

I always excused it as, I have a high end job and work with females who, in her opinion, have more "value" than her; so with her being unemployed and uneducated she felt insecure.

You know her best, her anxieties likely were a result from those stressors.  BTW, my wife is also an accountant like you, and well educated, just as you mentioned earlier, but unlike your gf, in her profession my wife was/is secure, it was just with her emotional state in relation to me is where she felt insecure.  She says I am her very first boyfriend, even when I asked her that question yesterday when it casually came up in conversation while we were talking about our daughter's boyfriend valentines date where I comment the first will always have a special place in her heart, as the boys grandmother indicated she was the first of many more to come.

Speaking of dates...

I can share with you how it went (and also how good you are in your analysis)

I booked a nice restaurant in central London and we met. I was very nervous as its my first date in over a decade.

She is very easy to talk to and we spoke about a varied number of topics. She is like me in that she avoids conflicts and tend to people please so we both kind of laughed at this. There was a slight bit of love bombing element to it from both her and me and some oversharing which I didnt mind. We both have a very similar childhood upbringing

A little bit of love bombing at this stage is not a red or yellow flag at all, as you are trying to impress each other.  Much like a speed limit, if it is within a certain limit, it is okay; however, when it exceeds the limit to the point of being reckless (an extreme example would be being seduced sexually on the first date for example, which happened to me on each of my first dates with borderlines, one was a blowjob in a parking lot, and the other was having a very hot, hot tub experience).

Then she did start talking about her ex. She did say sorry for bringing him up again which i told her its understandable. Then she got a bit angry when talking about him. She had shame that given her qualification she fell for the manipulation and didnt see she was in trauma bonded relationship. So like me there is still anger and most likely feelings for him still.

You and her will always have strong feelings your respective ex partners as those relationships are very intense in nature, even as time moves on - the more appropriate question is which relationship dominates your thoughts, the new love interest, or the ex?  Does ruminations on the ex get [too much] in the way of the new relationship?  Since both of you are in the 'same/similar boat', you will like have discussions on this.  Be emotionally supportive and validate her feelings, but do not be her therapist, likewise do not let her be your therapist - there is a fine line between being supportive and being a therapist in this.  Your respective exes should not be the primary focus of your dates.

I can very easily see how she has shame about being manipulated in this manner, just like you do, and I do as well.  The borderline has a natural survival instinct of being manipulative that they learned from an early age (typically before 5 yo) on how to get their way to the point that they are not even aware they are doing it (in the case of my wife, not so sure about the exgf though).

I didnt reply with my own examples (although i wanted to) and she picked up on that and said she wont bring him up again. Aside from that we spoke a lot and I found myself smiling home.

It just felt nice to go out for a meal and not get into a big argument where we cut the night short after causing a scene.

I'm glad that you didn't ruminate on your ex especially as she is trained in the field - you probably made a good impression you are well on your way of getting over your ex (even though you might not be as far as she thinks).  You definitely don't want to 'burden' them with your ex, talk to your therapist on how to best proceed on this.

It sounds like you had a very nice evening.  How did that smile feel?  I can imagine that it felt quite alien, but in a very nice kind of way, perhaps like a nice warm fuzzy hug.

Also by the way she is forensic psychiatrist, so I can send her your brothers way if you like .

I would like to distance myself from my step-brother serial killer as we are NC.  There is no biological relation, and I did not grow up with him, and met him around 30 yo.  psychologytoday.com has labelled him as a sociopath and possible psychopath, the closest we got was that he was a member of my wedding party.  The freakiest and most off putting part of him, is that he had a perpetual smile and joyful tone, like a giddy school kid, in his voice no matter the circumstance, if it was the birth of his child, or if he was facing the death penalty in court - it was the continuously identical behavioural pattern leading me to personally believe he was more psychopath than sociopath as he could not change what he was emoting based on changing circumstances which should have shifted his behavioural pattern at least somewhat if he were a sociopath.  I am still trying to figure out the FOO side for what may have caused him to be this way.

I had a family emergency, so I was not able to respond sooner; however, I will endeavor to respond to the codependent patterns later on today.

Take care.  Good luck.  It is okay to wind down the frequency of your responses, but do check in after your next therapy session, as I am interested in how that may have gone for you.  If your new lady friend is curious about my step brother, send me a PM, and I will send you many links, he does not share a surname, so I will remain anonymous.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

BM,

   I did a follow-up on the list of codependent traits/patterns at:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357723.new#new

It has the following title:  "Codependent/Caretaking patterns that ensnare us in a BPD relationship"

SD

[Brokenmind]

Hey SD

Apologies I haven't had a chance to reply for a few days some new developments happened which Ill explain after I reply to your post.

It sounds like you are a 'glutton for punishment' - I would suggest only to watch these videos if and when you decide to fall for a recycle / H00VER attempt with her as a nasty reminder of her true nature.

Which is me in a nut shell. I would never fall for her again SD theres no question of that, for me I need to just stop. Its not healthy and the only reason i do is not honourable as Im looking and hoping to see cracks in their relationship. I think its to assure myself that she was not just like this with me (therefore my fault). Its a stupid way of thinking and I need to stop.

However, I am curious as to how her suicidal threats on a weekly basis would manifest?

Your experience sounds a lot less than my ex.

My ex had three types of suicidal threats. First would be the benign one, not a threat as such but just a proclamation. If something small went wrong she would say "I wish I was dead" or "Im going to kill myself". Or she would say things like "If you cheat on my I will kill you and then kill myself you know" All said in a throw away comment kind of way. This was daily and all multiple times a day. This I could handle.

The second would be the texting threats. So Im at work, she sends me a funny text. I dont respond because well, Im at work.. So she will call. I miss that call. Then I get a nasty text accusing me of sleeping with someone at work and to see what she is going to in revenge. Then its the suicidal threat. So in bold capital: "YOU NEVER LOVED ME! WHEN YOU COME BACK HOME TONIGHT (Sons name) WILL BE AY MY COUSINS AND ILL BE DEAD! BYE!

I would come to my phone to these three texts and you can imagine how i felt. Sometimes Ill be lucky and see the first one and respond but my work has a lot of meetings and I couldnt have my phone next to me all the time.

Other times would be if she ran out of weed and couldnt find any. (In London it is illegal and can be hard to come by). She would call or text threatening suicide as she is "going crazy" without.

These texts/calls would happen 3-4 times a week.

The third would be during a meltdown or major argument. So we are arguing, Im no longer holding back, and it gets really heated, I go to leave to get some space. She would think im never coming back for some reason and then hold a knife to her stomach threatening suicide if I leave the house.

Other times she would pull her hair out (sometimes literally) and kick/punch the walls or even her own head. Almost like a childs tantrum only with violence,

This would be rare but over a single year perhaps 3-4 times?

Reading this back is really freaking me out, what the hell was I thinking!!


 

BTW, my wife is also an accountant like you, and well educated, just as you mentioned earlier, but unlike your gf, in her profession my wife was/is secure, it was just with her emotional state in relation to me is where she felt insecure. 

Thats the complete opposite to my ex SD. I wish my ex worked or was secure. It sounds like with your wife her biggest trait is the fear of abandonment which manifests onto you. Can I ask SD does it feel like sometimes she expects you to love her almost like a parent would and also treats you like a parent when she thinks you let her down? This is the feeling I had with my ex and was wondering if it was the same for you

A little bit of love bombing at this stage is not a red or yellow flag at all, as you are trying to impress each other.  Much like a speed limit, if it is within a certain limit, it is okay; however, when it exceeds the limit to the point of being reckless (an extreme example would be being seduced sexually on the first date for example, which happened to me on each of my first dates with borderlines, one was a blowjob in a parking lot, and the other was having a very hot, hot tub experience).

The date went really well SD. The love bombing is not extreme  and I think is there as we are both really giving people who like to please others. So it almost feels like I can trust her not to hurt me as she is similar to me. We have seen each other twice since so thats everyday now but we haven't had sex or anything else like that. Which to me is a breath of fresh air. With my ex that's all she knew what to offer. With this girl I'm having flirty conversations and laughing and just really getting on.

Dont get me wrong sex with my ex was great and almost porn like but looking back now it was just lustful and I dont think I ever "made love" to my ex it was always more about the actual act of sex than connecting in love.

You and her will always have strong feelings your respective ex partners as those relationships are very intense in nature, even as time moves on - the more appropriate question is which relationship dominates your thoughts, the new love interest, or the ex? Your respective exes should not be the primary focus of your dates.

Since I started dating I have to admit my thoughts are not more dominated by this new interest but I would say my thoughts are LESS dominated by my ex.

I think she has more of a problem with it than me. As she has quite a few times veered the topic back onto her ex. She apologises and does say afterwards she is sorry for bringing him up but that he was a big part of her life so a lot of her memories are of him. I get it and I told her that but ive resisted more than her plus I dont go into any details unlike her. Hopefully she wont feel the need to if the relationship continues.

How did that smile feel?  I can imagine that it felt quite alien, but in a very nice kind of way, perhaps like a nice warm fuzzy hug.

It actually did SD. I went home that night I think kind of feeling like the old me before I met my ex (I say think as its been 12 years). It did feel alien in the sense I had that nice feeling of being wanted but with none of the alarm bells ringing.

I had a family emergency, so I was not able to respond sooner

I hope nothing serious SD, (if you need to talk or anything I can do PM me)

Take care.  Good luck.  It is okay to wind down the frequency of your responses, but do check in after your next therapy session, as I am interested in how that may have gone for you.  If your new lady friend is curious about my step brother, send me a PM, and I will send you many links, he does not share a surname, so I will remain anonymous.

Thank you SD, I wont stop writing on here even when I start feeling over her. This site and you in particular has practically saved me from falling so I will always be grateful. Plus same to you SD , if you ever need me PM me and we can go from there.

Haha Ill ask if she wants that link


Ok so now SD Im going to tell you what happened yesterday as I got a text from her son,

[Brokenmind]

I got a text from an unknow number.

Its from her son who stated "Mum told me ive been actually allowed to text you this whole time so that great"

I said great that Ive missed him and love him so much and how he has been doing.

He replied that hes not great. That his Mum is still screaming at him everyday. I told him im sorry thats happening and I could never help her stop doing that when we were together. He said I wasnt around for 2 years and thats why Mum was mad at me but he doesnt blame me because of the way she is.

He then said "Ive just realised how much bad she has done, especially to you"

I then asked if hes Mum would ever let me meet him maybe to go lunch. He said no then said "but look, dont say anything to Mum but her relationship is not going very well. Hes narcissistic  and has made her cry multiple times and it will end between them soon. He said in her words that "he gets very angry and feels it could lead to violence and he talks to other women and is a narcissistic pr@ck and how she knew she made a mistake" then in the next breath she would say how much she loves him and wants to marry him"

I told him that it upsets me to hear that he is abusive as I still care about his mum as we were together so long.

He then said that he needs to ask me something. He asked "if it came down to her relationship ending and she gave me another chance  would I give her another chance"

At this point I started getting paranoid thinking is this her telling him to say this,

I replied with that I loved his Mum for 12 years but a lot has happened but I do still care about his Mum just not like I used to. I then asked him if he would want that to happen.

He replied of course he would and that its either me or nothing as he wont ever see anyone else like his Dad again.

He then had to go and we ended it with a promise to text me again tomorrow.

So; any thoughts????

[SaltyDawg]

BrokenMind,

   I am going to focus on your adopted son post first, as that one requires more immediate attention.

I got a text from an unknow number.

Its from her son who stated "Mum told me ive been actually allowed to text you this whole time so that great"

   Make a note of the number, add the 'unknown' number to your contacts as her son.  If you are concerned about his mum feeding him information, instead of texting, since you are both 'apple' do 'facetime', first of all it will be more like a face to face conversation with him, and secondly, you can pay attention to the background for 'clues' to if his mum is feeding him information to tell you in real time, it will also give you an indication if he is at his nan's place or his mum's place to give you an indication of the level of privacy you might have with him.

I said great that Ive missed him and love him so much and how he has been doing.

He replied that hes not great. That his Mum is still screaming at him everyday. I told him im sorry thats happening and I could never help her stop doing that when we were together. He said I wasnt around for 2 years and thats why Mum was mad at me but he doesnt blame me because of the way she is.

He then said "Ive just realised how much bad she has done, especially to you"

His mum is screaming at him, before doing this talk it over with your own individual therapist; however, I would suggest to start sharing tools with him on how to pushback against his mum in gentle, but effective ways to encourage his mum to stop yelling at him and mistreating him.

If he has a kindle account, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama-ebook/dp/B00B60DRKI/, buy him this book.  I would suggest sending him the link of https://margalistherapy.com/articles/borderline-and-narcissism-issues/handbook-for-dealing-with-a-bp-np/ which are the core principles of this book once you verify that his mum does not go through his phone, and after a facetime, as you do not want to inflame his mum any more than what has been done.

He also has shown a great bit of self-awareness on how his mum has treated you, and does not hold you accountable for the way she is, and he may have processed why you weren't around for 2 years.  Whenever he mentions this, gently reaffirm that it was not your choice not to be there for him and you wanted to have a relationship with him.  As you don't want to disparage his mum too much, I would urge caution before assigning blame directly to his mum on why you were not there for two years.

I then asked if hes Mum would ever let me meet him maybe to go lunch. He said no then said "but look, dont say anything to Mum but her relationship is not going very well. Hes narcissistic  and has made her cry multiple times and it will end between them soon. He said in her words that "he gets very angry and feels it could lead to violence and he talks to other women and is a narcissistic pr@ck and how she knew she made a mistake" then in the next breath she would say how much she loves him and wants to marry him"

I told him that it upsets me to hear that he is abusive as I still care about his mum as we were together so long.

It sounds like he is being parentified and he IS his mom's confidante or even therapist in this matter.  Anything you share with him, there is a good chance he may share with her, and vice versa.  The potential violent aspect of the sasquatch hunter is a new dynamic not previously known about him. 

He then said that he needs to ask me something. He asked "if it came down to her relationship ending and she gave me another chance would I give her another chance"

At this point I started getting paranoid thinking is this her telling him to say this,

I replied with that I loved his Mum for 12 years but a lot has happened but I do still care about his Mum just not like I used to. I then asked him if he would want that to happen.

He replied of course he would and that its either me or nothing as he wont ever see anyone else like his Dad again.

He then had to go and we ended it with a promise to text me again tomorrow.

So; any thoughts????

A lot of thoughts.  He definitely wants you do be a father figure to him.  He is likely his mum's confidante, so whatever you share with him, there is a good chance he will share with his mum as well, so keep your guard up on what you do and do not share with him until you firmly re-establish a relationship with him and can accurately measure what he does and does not share with her.  Any piece of information that you don't want shared after verifying that his mum is not looking at his phone (on facetime ideally) ask him not to share with his mum, much like he asked you not to share the information about the hunter that he shared with you.

I think your answer is an excellent one.  If I were you, I would loop your therapist into the matter, and get her opinion on it too.

Now I am going to ask you a some very direct questions, BM, what do you want?  Do you want to have a relationship with the forensic psychologist?  OR (not AND), do you want to have one with the sasquatch hunter's part-time lover?  From your perspective, the relationship being over is 'fresh' although from the sound of things it could have been over for as long as two years.

I am curious if you have follow-on date(s) lined up with the new girl you just saw a few days ago?  I'm asking as I would like to estimate how emotionally vulnerable you might be.  If you are not going to see her again, this makes you much more vulnerable to a recycle attempt and would require a different approach.

In any event, I suspect you will be asked this question again, as you did not directly answer him with a clear yes or no answer.  For now, leave it open ended (as this will encourage communication with him), until you can re-establish a good relationship with him, and then slowly give him pieces of information that you want him to have.  I know you have considered having him move in with you when he turns 16 - I wouldn't directly bring up this topic immediately, or you could frame it in a manner like "If your mum continues to yell at you, and you feel unsafe, when you are old enough, ..." [don't mention an age] "..., you could possibly live with me, only if you are interested.  What are your thoughts on this?"  This way you can get an accurate feeling on if he is thinking this way, and if he isn't, you planted a 'seed' that would eventually make this a possibility.  If he knows that he has options it could embolden to do more self-care for himself.

Do continue to interact with him, work to re-establishing the father/son dynamic, and move forward from there.

As always, do self-care & take care.

SD

P.S.  I ran out of time today, I will type more tomorrow, as I am still dealing with FIL issue, today he has an operation, and I need to be there for my wife.













[/quote]

[SaltyDawg]

Apologies I haven't had a chance to reply for a few days some new developments happened which Ill explain after I reply to your post.

No worries, I am a bit preoccupied myself, so I have flipped the responses around.

Which is me in a nut shell. I would never fall for her again SD theres no question of that, for me I need to just stop. Its not healthy and the only reason i do is not honourable as Im looking and hoping to see cracks in their relationship. I think its to assure myself that she was not just like this with me (therefore my fault). Its a stupid way of thinking and I need to stop.

This is not a stupid way of thinking.  You want to reassure yourself, that you are not the messed up one, that is just human nature.  Now that you know the back story on the sasquatch hunter, this should give you more distance.

Your experience sounds a lot less than my ex.

With my current wife, agreed; however, my exgf is a lot more conventional, and is more comparable to your exgf - my wife is not my first romantic BPD relationship.

My ex had three types of suicidal threats. First would be the benign one, not a threat as such but just a proclamation. If something small went wrong she would say "I wish I was dead" or "Im going to kill myself". Or she would say things like "If you cheat on my I will kill you and then kill myself you know" All said in a throw away comment kind of way. This was daily and all multiple times a day. This I could handle.

The second would be the texting threats. So Im at work, she sends me a funny text. I dont respond because well, Im at work.. So she will call. I miss that call. Then I get a nasty text accusing me of sleeping with someone at work and to see what she is going to in revenge. Then its the suicidal threat. So in bold capital: "YOU NEVER LOVED ME! WHEN YOU COME BACK HOME TONIGHT (Sons name) WILL BE AY MY COUSINS AND ILL BE DEAD! BYE!

I would come to my phone to these three texts and you can imagine how i felt. Sometimes Ill be lucky and see the first one and respond but my work has a lot of meetings and I couldnt have my phone next to me all the time.

Other times would be if she ran out of weed and couldnt find any. (In London it is illegal and can be hard to come by). She would call or text threatening suicide as she is "going crazy" without.

These texts/calls would happen 3-4 times a week.

What you described above is suicidal ideation, in each of these variants and I do not believe rise to the level of being disordered; however....

The third would be during a meltdown or major argument. So we are arguing, Im no longer holding back, and it gets really heated, I go to leave to get some space. She would think im never coming back for some reason and then hold a knife to her stomach threatening suicide if I leave the house.

.... This on the other hand is a suicidal 'gesture' and I feel that this rises to the level of the described symptom in a disordered way.

Other times she would pull her hair out (sometimes literally) and kick/punch the walls or even her own head. Almost like a childs tantrum only with violence,

This would be rare but over a single year perhaps 3-4 times?

Reading this back is really freaking me out, what the hell was I thinking!!

Same here with the suicidal thinking, only a bit less, like once or twice per year instead of your 3-4 times per year.  I did not count her ideation.  And, yes, it did freak me out, once I saw the symptom in writing.

Thats the complete opposite to my ex SD. I wish my ex worked or was secure. It sounds like with your wife her biggest trait is the fear of abandonment which manifests onto you.

My wife's comorbid OCPD makes her a good hard worker, that follows the rules when she is regulated, she is also incredibly smart too, so she doesn't think she is like a traditional borderline.

Most borderlines have at their core, is a fear of abandonment, I also have a fear of abandonment, although at a much lower level than she does.  I had this before I had any romantic relationships due to childhood trauma so I would not characterise it as being manifested onto me.  However, I do not let it rule me, and even my wife's most recent attempt at separation/divorce had no effect on me in essence nullifying my response, which in turn caused her to stop making these threats.

Can I ask SD does it feel like sometimes she expects you to love her almost like a parent would and also treats you like a parent when she thinks you let her down? This is the feeling I had with my ex and was wondering if it was the same for you

Yes, you can ask.  Both borderlines expected me to treat them like a child at times as though I was a parent; however, if and when I do so, and if they realize it, they hate it, and got mad.  My wife will go one step further, and treat me like the child and her the parent.

The date went really well SD. The love bombing is not extreme  and I think is there as we are both really giving people who like to please others. So it almost feels like I can trust her not to hurt me as she is similar to me. We have seen each other twice since so thats everyday now but we haven't had sex or anything else like that. Which to me is a breath of fresh air. With my ex that's all she knew what to offer. With this girl I'm having flirty conversations and laughing and just really getting on.

I am very happy for you, and a bit envious as well - so far it sounds healthy.

Dont get me wrong sex with my ex was great and almost porn like but looking back now it was just lustful and I dont think I ever "made love" to my ex it was always more about the actual act of sex than connecting in love.

The exgf was into some kinky stuff.  My wife, not so much, but there were some issues there too.

Since I started dating I have to admit my thoughts are not more dominated by this new interest but I would say my thoughts are LESS dominated by my ex.

I personally think that this is a healthy mindset as well.

I think she has more of a problem with it than me. As she has quite a few times veered the topic back onto her ex. She apologises and does say afterwards she is sorry for bringing him up but that he was a big part of her life so a lot of her memories are of him. I get it and I told her that but ive resisted more than her plus I dont go into any details unlike her. Hopefully she wont feel the need to if the relationship continues.

I personally think your mindset on this is healthy as well.  However, do pay attention how she describes her ex to you - if he is someone who unintentionally hurt her, or if he was a monster who could do no good which could be a  or flag.

It actually did SD. I went home that night I think kind of feeling like the old me before I met my ex (I say think as its been 12 years). It did feel alien in the sense I had that nice feeling of being wanted but with none of the alarm bells ringing.

This also sounds good as well.

I hope nothing serious SD, (if you need to talk or anything I can do PM me)

FIL is still in hospital, my wife is doing a great job of holding her emotions together, I will elaborate a bit more when the crisis is over.

Haha Ill ask if she wants that link

lmk

Take care.  I will write more about codependence soon, right now it is on my backburner.

SD

[Brokenmind]

Hello SD

Apologies again for the non reply for the last 6 days a few things happened and I kind of isolated myself by taking a week off. Ill get back to you regarding your replies which again I cannot thank you enough and tell you what happened this last week.

Make a note of the number, add the 'unknown' number to your contacts as her son. 

If you are concerned about his mum feeding him information, instead of texting, since you are both 'apple' do 'facetime', first of all it will be more like a face to face conversation with him.

I did this straight away and saved him as a contact but he cannot do facetime.

Her son wasnt that clear when he said his Mum told him he can have contact and he admitted that she doesnt know and would go mad if she knew. This threw me completely as technically Im now communicating with a 15 year old without his parents consent. I told him that he should of told me as this could make this messy. I told him that I would need to text his Mum again asking for permission to speak to him and have a relationship with him. I havent as yet text her and I last communicated with him on Thursday so its been 4 days now. He did say that he has been deleting the texts on his end in case his Mum sees it,

What are your thought on this? I too thought that his Mum would be pouring over my texts to him so Im not sure if she does know and this is a further layer or (and I think this is more likely), that she doesnt know.

Whenever he mentions this, gently reaffirm that it was not your choice not to be there for him and you wanted to have a relationship with him.  As you don't want to disparage his mum too much, I would urge caution before assigning blame directly to his mum on why you were not there for two years.

Thanks SD thats exactly what I did. I answered his question truthfully and he does understand it  and I told him that I will listen to what he has to say about his Mum but all I want is to be there for him.

Now I am going to ask you a some very direct questions, BM, what do you want?  Do you want to have a relationship with the forensic psychologist?  OR (not AND), do you want to have one with the sasquatch hunter's part-time lover?  From your perspective, the relationship being over is 'fresh' although from the sound of things it could have been over for as long as two years.

I want to have a relationship with the psychologist. I would never get back with my ex in any shape or form. Im still hurt by the events, Im still healing from it and therefore my ex still evokes powerful emotions in me, but these emotions are negative and there is no desire for her anymore.

It is fresh because for 2 years the relationship was dying, I gave her the ultimatum to go therapy and stopped trying to fix it so it got worse and worse. I just provided financial support to her and only really talked about her son and just argued all the time about our relationship. But I had hope that she would eventually see that Im not willing to budge until she committed to therapy. So when the break up happened due to me finding out about this guy it hurt as I did have that hope we would stay together and somehow get back to having that passion for each other. Now that I know about how she betrayed me with money etc and all her lies being confirmed over 12 years I cant see her that way ever again.

I am curious if you have follow-on date(s) lined up with the new girl you just saw a few days ago?  I'm asking as I would like to estimate how emotionally vulnerable you might be.  If you are not going to see her again, this makes you much more vulnerable to a recycle attempt and would require a different approach.

Its going really well, we had a follow up date but she and I were busy with work to see each other more but whats been really nice is that we get on really well. We have spoken everyday and our conversations last for hours on end.

Now this is where Im getting a little freaked out. So she does talk about her ex a lot. Which I dont mind as he was (she suspects) BPD and was abusive. In fact all her exs have been abusive.

That part threw me a bit and leads on to....

...Secondly she does love bomb a bit, by saying how nice and caring Iam and she needs to get used to all this and she admitted that since her ex she does feel like she picked up some of his "borderline fleas" as she put it. I see the oversharing straight away as a flea as she has pretty much told me her entire childhood history (how she never felt seen by her family) as well as her 4 abusive exs in detail. But she is not emotional when she talks about them and I feel like she recognises it and deals with it well.

Thirdly, myself. I feel like Im really attaching to her myself. I enjoy listening to her and get that exciting feeling when i receive a text from her but this makes me feel vulnerable again and its not something I like feeling. Also I feel we share very similar traits in that we can both be easily taken advantage of so it feels good that I dont have that fear with her as she has been through the same.

In any event, I suspect you will be asked this question again, as you did not directly answer him with a clear yes or no answer.  For now, leave it open ended (as this will encourage communication with him), until you can re-establish a good relationship with him, and then slowly give him pieces of information that you want him to have.  I know you have considered having him move in with you when he turns 16 - I wouldn't directly bring up this topic immediately, or you could frame it in a manner like "If your mum continues to yell at you, and you feel unsafe, when you are old enough, ..." [don't mention an age] "..., you could possibly live with me, only if you are interested.  What are your thoughts on this?"  This way you can get an accurate feeling on if he is thinking this way, and if he isn't, you planted a 'seed' that would eventually make this a possibility.  If he knows that he has options it could embolden to do more self-care for himself.

Thank you I haver since communicated this to him. I told him right now my concerns are his schooling as he is reaching the year where his exams affect his next move after school. And the fact that no matter what he has me as an option to live with me and I can provide a safe and secure environment. Regarding his Mother I wasnt totally honest and left it open ended on purpose until I establish a stronger relationship with him

FIL is still in hospital, my wife is doing a great job of holding her emotions together, I will elaborate a bit more when the crisis is over.

Im sorry to hear that SD I hope all is well and the operation went smoothly. PM me if you need to talk or need any kind of support from me mate.

Now Im going to share the events of the last week. So he last text i got from her son was Thursday.

He shared that his Mum wants him to start working at the local coffee shop for work experience. He got into a heated argument with her as he wants to catch up with his missed lessons.

I agreed with him that school is more important especially as he is behind. Then he admitted to me that for the last 18 months he hasnt done a single thing! In other words for the last 2 years where she took him out of school and decided to home school him she was lying to me about how well they were doing and in fact he didnt do a SINGLE lesson at home. So he basically has had NO schooling for under 2 years.

I was fuming and angry and this is illegal as well. Her son even told me she may go to court over this as well. I wanted to call her straight away but obviously i dont know all this and she doesnt even know im talking to her son...

I told him I will pay for private tutoring whatever it took to help him catch up. But I would need to speak to him mum. So we agreed I send her a text just asking for contact again.

He again reiterated how badly his Mum relationship is going with this guy and how she genuinely feared he would hit her and  i responded that all I care about is him but it saddens me to hear she is in that situation.

Then he went into some elaborate plan. He said that "once this relationship ends and his mum feels the harsh break up I will plant seeds in her head so she thinks of you in a "good way". Then that thought can grow and then you never know. In other words I might pull off the biggest wingman move in history "

I told him to stop thinking like this. That I loved his Mum but the relationship was toxic and that I also take responsibility for that. I tried my hardest to be with her and I dont regret the relationship as I had the honour of raising him and that I love him and that wont ever change.

I said that right now all I want is to be able to communicate with his Mum in order to have a relationship with him that is it.

Again sorry for the late replies SD, I should be back on daily now and I hope everything is ok on your end.



















[/quote]

[once removed]

...Secondly she does love bomb a bit, by saying how nice and caring Iam and she needs to get used to all this and she admitted that since her ex she does feel like she picked up some of his "borderline fleas" as she put it. I see the oversharing straight away as a flea

there are no such things as "fleas". its an urban legend  

mental illness is not contagious, and cannot be "caught". if you spend a month in a mental institution, you will not develop mental illness.

what shes telling you is she has baggage she hasnt dealt with, left over from the last relationship, and the previous ones. its nothing to be afraid of, but it suggests a person thats emotionally unavailable for a fulfilling, sustainable, and healthy relationship.

Thirdly, myself. I feel like Im really attaching to her myself. I enjoy listening to her and get that exciting feeling when i receive a text from her but this makes me feel vulnerable again and its not something I like feeling. Also I feel we share very similar traits in that we can both be easily taken advantage of so it feels good that I dont have that fear with her as she has been through the same.

the fact is, you are both carrying baggage, which is understandable; you are fresh out of a traumatic relationship that you havent completely grieved.

the problem? youre both emotionally injured people, bonding over your wounds. that can work great in a lot of contexts, like say a support group. not so much as a foundation for a romantic relationship; its how a lot of us found ourselves here, or how a lot of us coped after the breakup. it can feel great at first, but when the relationship moves beyond those initial stages, it can get messy.

[Brokenmind]

Thanks for the reply Once Removed. I do hope SD is doing ok as I note he hasn’t been on for a while.

there are no such things as "fleas". its an urban legend 
what shes telling you is she has baggage she hasnt dealt with, left over from the last relationship, and the previous ones. its nothing to be afraid of, but it suggests a person thats emotionally unavailable for a fulfilling, sustainable, and healthy relationship.

I thought as much I’ve only ever heard it called fleas and I ha tee to generalise. This is what worries me slightly. She is a qualified forensic Psychologist so I found it strange she would use terms like this nor recognise what she is doing in this respect .
.

the problem? youre both emotionally injured people, bonding over your wounds. that can work great in a lot of contexts, like say a support group. not so much as a foundation for a romantic relationship; its how a lot of us found ourselves here, or how a lot of us coped after the breakup. it can feel great at first, but when the relationship moves beyond those initial stages, it can get messy.

I was apprehensive about starting a new relationship but I thought (sounds selfish writing this) that it may help me with stopping ruminating about my ex. It did at first but now I find myself attaching a bit too strongly for my liking.

For example I was conditioned over the years to immediately reply to my ex texts for fear that it would trigger her. Now in this relationship I found myself getting “worried anxious” when I missed her text for 4 hours and not only that I also got anxious and worried when she didn’t reply straight away as I was so used to constant texts and calls from my ex

I feel like I get on with her really well but I would say 40% of our conversations are about her ex. I haven’t mentioned mine too much but do give her little insights to the abuse I had in context with hers.

I’m going to carry on seeing her. The good thing is we haven’t become sexual and both want to take it slow. However  right now the situation with my ex’ son is taking prevalence as I’m really concerned about his future in education as well as the fact she doesn’t not feed him adequately.

I started a new thread I. The other section regarding this. 

In thank you so much for coming back to me once removed, it is really really appreciated.

You know I have to say that I feel like I owe you all so much for helping me through this. Thank you.

[EyesUp]

Hello @BMind,

A couple of ideas in response to recent posts:

Fleas:
While mental illness is not contagious, conditioned responses and other patterns can develop - in any relationship.

Habits and routines become familiar. Sometimes we adopt phrases from our partners, e.g., my uBPDxw's family all say (and write!) "nite nite" (not "night night"), and I find that it's something I've adopted and continue to say to our kids...   is that a kind of "flea" that jumped off her and now resides on me? Maybe. 

That said - It's not a "BPD flea" - I'll defer to Once Removed and others re: how far we need to go scrutinize the language, I mainly wanted to say: I've spent a great deal of time in my own therapy exploring how my relationship with my uBPDxw has influenced me.  I don't see the influence as a permanent thing, and so I strive to work on how to think objectively - about myself and others - without knee-jerk reactions I may have developed over years of adapting - or attempting to adapt - to meet my uBPDxw's ever changing needs/demands/preferences/expectations/entitlements...  it's something I'm still working on a few years out, and expect to continue to work on.

Dating:
Conventional wisdom suggests that we all take time to heal after a breakup, divorce, etc.  There are many good reasons for this, at the top of the list are: to protect yourself (from getting hurt again, repeating past mistakes, etc), followed closely by to protect others (from getting hurt by you).

That said, I don't think that there is only one possible approach to all possible scenarios and individuals...  Based on what you've described, it sounds like you're attuned to risks and potential problems.  I agree that exploring a new relationship can be an important step in almost any recovery process.  So now that something is underway - What are some other things to look out for at this point?

- do you feel that sharing recent experiences is a mutual discussion?  i.e., does she show interest in you and your recent experience, or only in venting her own feelings?
- are you comfortable sharing your recent experience at this point?  both in general (requires a great deal of vulnerability and awareness of the trauma you've experienced), and also with her in particular (do you have a sense of safety and trust)?  it might be hard to know...
- do you feel that you're at a point where you can "trust your gut" or is there a chance that you're overlooking or even ignoring certain signals?  again, hard to know - but at this moment and going forward, you need to be your own best ally

In my case, after my 14yr marriage ended, I intended to pursue a "year of peace" and to focus on my kids and my self following my divorce. During this time, my therapist advised me to reconnect with old friends, family, etc - standard advice. In the process of reconnecting with friends, I learned that my college girlfriend was also recently divorced.  We hadn't been in touch in years, but we had a positive post-dating friendship after college (and before my marriage), and you can see where this is going...  I was a bit apprehensive because I did not fully complete my "year of peace" however it was enormously helpful to reconnect with an old friend, with a certain level of mutual trust, as well as recent shared experience. We live on opposite sides of the US, so there was never a question about dating per se - but we got together about once a month, as parenting schedules would allow, and the time we spent together was very healthy for both of us. 

In fact, it was helpful to me in ways I could not have anticipated - I didn't realize that I was holding on to the idea that I might be the problem.  Over some time, I was able to begin to learn to trust myself again - and let go of my uBPDxw's voice, that was still echoing in my head (fleas?).

Which is to say:  please be accountable to yourself, mindful of your readiness, and strive for some mutuality.  We all know about the cliche of rebound relationships.  The truth is:  They are great when everyone is aligned.  It's the alignment that's tricky...   just like any other relationship.

I hope this is helpful in some way.

[once removed]

I thought as much I’ve only ever heard it called fleas and I hate to generalise. This is what worries me slightly

phrases, sayings, mannerisms, interests, hobbies, all kinds of influences: these are all things we pick up in communities and relationships. relationships/communities develop their own language and ways of interacting. this is very normal. adapting and becoming like our surroundings is part of evolution. mirroring is how people (everyone) bond. people with bpd, or anyone with a weaker identity, just tend to take it to a higher level.  

our mental health issues are about us and how we cope and respond to stress. if i had a higher than normal fear of abandonment after my breakup, it isnt because my ex gave it to me - its because i was going through a bad breakup, and under a lot of stress from it, and i was pretty needy.

breakups can be traumatic of course, and a lot of what we may be going through in the aftermath can be expected, eg it is "normal" to be emotionally unavailable after a breakup, or the death of a loved one, etc; hence the need to fully grieve and work through the attachment to that person and the wounds from the relationship.

if someone cheats on me, its reasonable to a point that i might be concerned about that happening in a future relationship, but if i bring that concern/fear into future relationships, and i start to try to manage the other person to placate my fears that i havent worked through, that is my own unresolved baggage, and my own way of coping, and its going to impact my relationships for the worse. this is self evident: no two people who, having experienced the same thing (anything traumatic), will struggle with it to the same degree, or in the same way.

For example I was conditioned over the years to immediately reply to my ex texts for fear that it would trigger her. Now in this relationship I found myself getting “worried anxious” when I missed her text for 4 hours and not only that I also got anxious and worried when she didn’t reply straight away as I was so used to constant texts and calls from my ex

i dont say this to minimize your experience; we all dealt with a great deal more stress than is present in your average relationship, and while we all did the best we could, we struggled with it.

this anxiety/worry you developed and the strategy you used, are how you adapted to and coped with stress. its an important distinction, because remove the ex from the equation, and its still present in your new relationship. could it be temporary? sure. could it speak more broadly to your attachment style, or your unresolved grief? also sure.

moreover, if people have that power over us, there is absolutely nothing to prevent it from happening again.

I thought that it may help me with stopping ruminating about my ex.

this, likewise, is how you are coping with stress. there are lots of ways to work through ruminations; using a relationship as one is a crutch or a distraction from your grief. distractions arent inherently bad; i fully support diving head first into video games or other hobbies (within reason) after a bad breakup   the problem in this case is that theres another person on the end of that, that youre interacting and bonding with over it. thats a far more complex thing happening.

I feel like I get on with her really well but I would say 40% of our conversations are about her ex.

a previously unresolved relationship (thats a pretty extreme amount happening in the context of the two of you starting a relationship), while not a sign of physical danger or harm, is a sign of an emotionally unavailable person that is not prepared to be relationship material.

it all suggests that you are both emotionally unavailable/wounded individuals looking to each other to heal your (very fresh) wounds. that is a foundation of a relationship that is fraught with peril. it will get complicated when the exes are no longer a part of the picture.

I’m going to carry on seeing her.

with that said, you neither have to stop seeing her, nor "run for the hills". there is nothing inherently wrong with dating or flirting after a breakup. what i think is important here, and for all of us after these breakups, is to be both self aware, and realistic. our relationship pickers are usually off; i know mine was. if anything, it might help to expand your dating pool (see other people, even casually), and otherwise not to invest your emotional recovery in this pairing. there are limits to what it can be.

[Brokenmind]

Hey EyesUp

without knee-jerk reactions I may have developed over years of adapting - or attempting to adapt - to meet my uBPDxw's ever changing needs/demands/preferences/expectations/entitlements...  it's something I'm still working on a few years out, and expect to continue to work on.

Yeap this is me. I find myself, not so much now, adopting some of our defenses in dealing with my emotions. For example she would drink coffee after coffee smoking weed rocking back and forth on the sofa. I dont smoke weed but during christmas and january i found myself sitting on my own drinking coffee after coffee and chain smoking. I stopped now but its interesting that I started rocking back and forth too.

Or when I'm waiting in line for something I would start getting impatient and angry just like she used to when waiting. Before we split I was very patient and it took a lot to get me angry.

- do you feel that sharing recent experiences is a mutual discussion?  i.e., does she show interest in you and your recent experience, or only in venting her own feelings?
- are you comfortable sharing your recent experience at this point?  both in general (requires a great deal of vulnerability and awareness of the trauma you've experienced), and also with her in particular (do you have a sense of safety and trust)?  it might be hard to know...
- do you feel that you're at a point where you can "trust your gut" or is there a chance that you're overlooking or even ignoring certain signals?  again, hard to know - but at this moment and going forward, you need to be your own best ally

Yes it does feel mutual, she always brings up her ex first, normally our of a normal situation. Like yesterday when we were talking about italian restaurants, (her ex is italian) and she would say how her ex hated going italian as it doesnt compare to his mothers cooking. This will lead to her remembering something he did that was abusive and talk about that, I would then resonate and share my own similar experience with her and she does take an interest and it doesnt feel like she is just venting to me.

Im more apprehensive about sharing and I dont go into details too much. When I share something its normally me just validating her experience and give a vague description of what happened to me and why i resonate with how she is feeling.

For me I have 12 years of abuse and shame, she was with him for under 3 years and if Im honest Im a bit apprehensive to tell her everything that happened (the abuse, cheating, rages and violence) as for me it shows how little self esteem and respect I had and feel ashamed,

I do trust her to share, she is a psychologist as well, and I trust my gut enough to listen to it now. But its the fear of getting hurt again is really there still.

In my case, after my 14yr marriage ended, I intended to pursue a "year of peace" and to focus on my kids and my self following my divorce. During this time, my therapist advised me to reconnect with old friends, family, etc - standard advice.

The same thing my therapist told me to do too. But she wasn't against the idea of me dating again, just for me to be mindful.

This has been very helpful EU thank you. I do feel like I'm not emotionally ready as I'm still healing but I have totally honest with this and I feel so far so has she. Im just scared of being hurt again and I think so is she.

My other fear is that she told me she has only had bad relationships so far. 4 partners in her lifetime (she is 40) and each one had traits of narcassism or bpd. So she even said she feels im the first guy she has dated who doesnt show any red flags. This worries me as a) will she find me boring (is she addicted to trauma) and b) the only common factor in those relationships is her so does she have issues or like she says she only seems to meet people with personality disorder added to the caveat that she is a psychologist so if anything how did she not recognise the toxicity?

[Brokenmind]

Hi Once removed

if i had a higher than normal fear of abandonment after my breakup, it isnt because my ex gave it to me - its because i was going through a bad breakup, and under a lot of stress from it, and i was pretty needy.

I think thats where Iam right now and you encapsulated it perfectly. I never had a fear of abandonment before and Iam feeling pretty needy too and i believe she is too.

The good thing is we have spoken about this and the need to not rush into it  and we have spoken about the fact we are both hurt and need to heal. So we are both aware and she is like me in that although she is very agreeable we are very self aware now of our faults because of our pasts.

it all suggests that you are both emotionally unavailable/wounded individuals looking to each other to heal your (very fresh) wounds. that is a foundation of a relationship that is fraught with peril. it will get complicated when the exes are no longer a part of the picture.

THIS. This is what Im afraid of. That we are both only dating to heal or mask our very fresh wounds. For me personally, I wanted to stay single for a long time until Im happy with myself. I went on a dating app as admittedly I wanted to feel wanted again, especially when I can see by going on Youtube how happy my ex is with this guy. I started dating just to feel good and perhaps try and forget how i feel which at the time was very dark.

And it did feel good. I went on a date with a different girl before and that was fine although we didnt click but it felt nice that she had an interest in me. And then I met this girl where we spoke for over 3 hours in the first phone call alone. This has carried on and we still speak for hours and hours on end. We dont only speak about our exes and this has gotten less and less each time.

Can you elaborate why you think it will get worse once our exes are no longer part of the picture? Do you mean that once we are both healed we would have nothing in common?

[Brokenmind]

Okaaaay maybe you were right.

First red flag???

We were supposed to meet yesterday but she got really drunk at her families house the night before and felt ill yesterday so we didn't meet as planned. I was absolutely fine with it and wished her a speedy recovery. We only communicated by text as she felt so rough.

This morning I get a text from her asking if I want to meet up for a walk in the park but she still feels like crap.

Unfortunately I couldn't as I have a family get together today and I said we can meet after or she is more than welcome to come with me to the get together. I got no response so I called her and still got no answer.

I then get a text saying "sorry not in the mood to talk right now lets talk another time. Its too soon to meet each others families. Have a good day". with none of the usual kisses at the end.

I replied by saying "sorry did I say something wrong" and Ive gotten no response since.

So Im right now feeling like what happened?? Is it me?

She cancelled our plans on Saturday because she was hungover and it feels like she expected me to drop everything today to walk with her in the park.

I really dont need this right now..... So Im going to leave it there and not do anything and just see what happens next.

But Im feeling like crap right now and I dont get why I keep thinking of how I could of done better to have avoided this reaction.

Should I have just dropped my family to go on this walk? I mean she was feeling pretty low still from Friday but Ive only known her for just under a month and this family get together has been planned for weeks.

I'm starting to see the attraction of living like a hermit.

[EyesUp]

Yup, it sounds like you need to slow your roll...

I replied by saying "sorry did I say something wrong" and Ive gotten no response since.


She told you exactly how she feels...
- like crap
- too soon to meet families (a fair position)

Somehow that didn't click.

She didn't say she didn't want to get together - only that she's not ready to join your family event. As far as you know, she doesn't expect you to change your plans for her. She didn't say anything like that. She did miss the offer to connect after the family event, but also wished you a good day, and offered to connect at a later time - so focus on that.

The way I read this is:  She's not feeling great, wanted to try to connect anyway, it's not lining up quite right and she prob still feels like crap...

You're probably accustomed to prompt if not urgent text exchanges with your X, and seem concerned that your new acquaintance was slow to respond. My suggestion is: Dial it back a bit. Another response might have been:  "yeah, probably getting ahead of myself - thanks for that - catch you later"

If that sort of non-defensive response isn't intuitive, then I agree: you may benefit from a bit more time to heal / recover in general.

In the meantime, give her a minute or two - i.e., maybe follow up tomorrow the day after to see if she's recovered.   

In the meantime, enjoy that family gathering, and take some time for yourself.

[Brokenmind]

Hey EyesUp

I was correct in my assumption that she was being stand offish. She sent me a text later today apologising and that something happened on her night out which involved someone spiking her drink. Nothing happened but she recalls getting into a cab with 2 nurses (male and female) and she got scared and screamed to be let out. She is fine and got home safely.

I comforted her and offered her my support as she works with these people and is unsure who actually spiked her drink.

One problem remains though. I didnt mention it to her but she lied. She told me she was at her parents house and she must of forgotten and slipped she was out with friends.

Why she would lie I dont know but I take that as a red flag.

[SinisterComplex]

Hey EyesUp

I was correct in my assumption that she was being stand offish. She sent me a text later today apologising and that something happened on her night out which involved someone spiking her drink. Nothing happened but she recalls getting into a cab with 2 nurses (male and female) and she got scared and screamed to be let out. She is fine and got home safely.

I comforted her and offered her my support as she works with these people and is unsure who actually spiked her drink.

One problem remains though. I didnt mention it to her but she lied. She told me she was at her parents house and she must of forgotten and slipped she was out with friends.

Why she would lie I dont know but I take that as a red flag.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck well then it is a F duck! LOL.  As for why she would lie...does it really matter? It's ultimately irrelevant because it is a red flag. It is a do not pass go do not collect $200 moment. Your assumption wasn't an assumption...it was a protective instinct kicking in...listen to it.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[EyesUp]

@BMind,

I have to agree with @SC. 

We can speculate all day about what's going on here, but it all boils down to:  Is it possible to establish a healthy dynamic, trust, etc., from this starting point?   

Sure, it's possible to talk it out and see how goes, see how you feel, listen to your gut, give it another shot...  but...  for many of us, there will be a lingering doubt - "remember that time, way back when, at the beginning, when you said that you were with your parents, but you were actually roofied while out drinking?" 

Given everything you're working on these days, I have to wonder if this is a positive distraction or something else?

You don't need to go full hermit, but you don't need to dive right into a new relationship either.

How are you feeling about her point re: not meeting families right away? 
How was your family event? 

Wishing you a good week...

[once removed]

First red flag???

I'm starting to see the attraction of living like a hermit.

if what you take from this experience is to approach dating with fear (hypervigilance), you will be even less likely to find a fulfilling, healthy relationship, and more likely to find one that is dysfunctional.

sure, she shows obvious signs of dysfunction. they speak for themselves. but they (further) paint a picture of someone who is not emotionally available for a mutual, healthy relationship, not something that is going to harm you.

the potential harm to you isnt about her at all, or what to learn to avoid. its about you.

if you read through your posts and your descriptions of her, what is the fundamental point of attraction that you describe having to her? validation.

it isnt about her character. it isnt about the great memories you share. it isnt about the values you share. heck, it isnt even about her looks.

its about how she makes you feel about yourself. and youve pursued that even despite feeling uncomfortable with how things have been going. that isnt a warning sign about her. shes just trying to attract a mate. it is, when you really look at it, what youre looking for in a partner. it is what you are gravitating toward. when you understand that, you can begin to switch gears.

what you are encountering (her dysfunction) is out there. especially as we get older, the dating pool becomes collectively less healthy, so the more you date, the more youre going to run into it.

the difference, when you learn what to look for in a partner, is not that you will never encounter it again, or that youll run from the first sign of dysfunction. the difference is that when you approach dating with confidence and self assuredness in who you are and what you have to offer (and first become that person), and what you want in a partner, this stuff will either be a blip on your radar, or something you will quickly rebound from. it wont grind you down. sure, you will encounter, or may even pair up with someone who is dysfunctional, or just not a good match (both of those things may not be readily visible, and real intimacy and lasting bonds develop slowly over time), but you will not find yourself deep in a dysfunctional situation thats difficult to extricate yourself from. youll pick yourself up, dust yourself off, get back on that horse, and back on that path, older, wiser, stronger.

[Brokenmind]

Hi SC

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck well then it is a F duck! LOLit was a protective instinct kicking in...listen to it.

Your right. You’d think a psychologist would recognise their own issues. It’s funny how easy I tried to ignore the red flag and second guessed myself.

[Brokenmind]

Hey EU

Given everything you're working on these days, I have to wonder if this is a positive distraction or something else?

How are you feeling about her point re: not meeting families right away? 
How was your family event? 

Absolutely not a positive distraction now. I mean going on the actual dates was positive in the fact I was out having a nice dinner and enjoying her company. But I def don’t need to sit here thinking about why she lied.

It’s ok though as I don’t feel hurt, I’ve only just met her. And it’s kind reassuring that when I saw the lie I kinda just smiled to myself and thought “oh this again?”

In terms of meeting family, in mine it’s not a big thing to bring a partner as it was just a bbq event where we would have stayed for an hour or 2 and ate and leave but I get it.

Also when we spoke before about our families she said she told them about me and they want to meet me now. She said my family sound so close and really wants to meet my nieces who she said hello to when they were round during a video call.

So I didn’t think it was a “let get serious and meet the family” and she gave the same impression as well.

Oh it’s great thank you EyesUp. Nice BBQ and time spent with my nieces and nephews. I’m starting to really come out of the depression shell I’ve been in since the break up and finally started to feel like my old self with my family.

[Brokenmind]

Hi OR

Thank you for the reply.

the potential harm to you isnt about her at all, or what to learn to avoid. its about you.

I think you’re right. To be honest this was my whole intention when I started dating. It was literally to distract myself by going on dates and just having fun. The first date I had was like this, we went out, had a nice night, we didn’t click but it was fine, we both had a nice night.

With the psychologist we spoke for 3 hours in the phone before dating and in this first call she shared that her ex had BPD so she was hurt by it and I’m the first date she’s been with since. This immediately brought a shared connection and we both found validation in each other.

if you read through your posts and your descriptions of her, what is the fundamental point of attraction that you describe having to her? validation.

Yes. You’re correct that was the most fundamental point of attraction. I mean I do find her attractive, she is interesting to talk to and seems to come from a similar family value culture as me. But the fact she went through a similar situation and we both know how that feels brought a certain validation for both of us.

as we get older, the dating pool becomes collectively less healthy, so the more you date, the more youre going to run into it.

Im starting to realise that! It’s been so long for me. 12 years with my ex who I never really dated before being serious, 4 years of not dating before that and a 9 year relationship prior to that. So thats 25 years! Things have certainly changed!

I’m going to take a step back from this relationship. I will tell her about the lie today and say I think it shows we are both not ready to date as she felt she had to lie and I almost forgave it straight away. I think it’s beat. I need to concentrate on my healing and recovery journey as well as concentrate on what’s going on with ex’ son.

Thanks again for this.

[SinisterComplex]

Hi SC

Your right. You’d think a psychologist would recognise their own issues. It’s funny how easy I tried to ignore the red flag and second guessed myself.

You over analyzed and got stuck in analysis paralysis. You are not the first and won't be the last. We are all human and thus all fallible the same. You didn't want to be true what you knew to be true. S happens amigo. You live and you learn. Its a journey and a process. No reason to beat yourself up about it. Take the perspective of hey I guess I have more to learn than I thought I did and I am now presented the opportunity to get better and get stronger.

Cheers and Best Wishes my friend!

-SC-