Hello, this is scary.

[KayakerDude]

I'm going through marriage counseling with my wife of 12 years. Only recently have I realised she is displaying signs of BPD.
I'm a little lost, trying to get my bearings.

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[Pook075]

I'm going through marriage counseling with my wife of 12 years. Only recently have I realised she is displaying signs of BPD.
I'm a little lost, trying to get my bearings.

Hey Dude and welcome!  You're definitely in the right place but you'll have to give our community a little more to work with.  What's the goal here?  What's the most obvious challenges?  Talk that out a little bit for us.

[SinisterComplex]

I'm going through marriage counseling with my wife of 12 years. Only recently have I realised she is displaying signs of BPD.
I'm a little lost, trying to get my bearings.

So what makes you think they are signs of BPD? How long and consistently have the signs/symptoms appeared?

The most important thing to do here is to share and ask questions. Try to stay away from any diagnosing. The main reason for that is there always more at play than meets the eye.

My friend, we welcome you here for sure  . In saying that please take your time, be kind to you and take care of yourself.

Look forward to hearing more of your story and seeing how we the family here can help you.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[KayakerDude]

It wasn’t something that I ever even considered to explain behaviors. But a friend referred me to ‘Stop Walking On Eggshells’ and it was shocking how accuritely it described my life and is allowing me to have some sense of self, safety and understanding.

But the more specific reasons are that for the first 9 years of our marriage she was convinced I was cheating on her, about to cheat on her and would pick huge fights and even physically abuse me because she ‘believed it’. She has previously had someone cheat on her, and cheated on her last relationship. I have literally never done anything untrustworthy in that regard. She would spend hours screaming at me, insulting me, my beliefs, my friends, my hobbies, my parents and siblings. And no matter how calm I remained it was like it made her madder. In fact, she would regularly insult me for not screaming back at her. It made me feel crazy.
Finally one day after hours of this and trying to be peaceful and not fight back I lost it. Like I began sobbing and pretty much lost my PLEASE READ. Somehow in that moment she seemed to realize she had stepped past a line (finally) and after it took me days to get back to just feeling somewhat like I was okay. Since then the jealousy has decreased (it used to be her primary complaint againt me as a partner) and now she has shifted that to me being ‘controlling’.

It feels like as she gave up one reason to abuse me she immediately shifted to another. And it can be a lovely day, we are having fun and I say something i truly believe is completely innocuous and BAM! She is screaming, insulting and blaming me for all her bad decisions in life.

Right now I am alone in my home for the second night since she moved out and I am feeling safe finally. To be fair she has not hit me for about a year and a half. But to feel like I can come home and no one will verbally abuse me just for existing is like coming to the surface and getting a breath after holding it for so long.

She wants to date, and continue with marriage counseling. And she is seeing a therapist herself. But through her opening my Amazon package (spying on me for sure although she claims it was an accident) she saw the book (SWOE) and went nuts about it. That was Friday and I defused the moment as best I could but apparently that is her main topic to discuss tomorrow at counseling. Because as she says “that is so wrong, so not okay!”
But it is the only thing that has ever helped me make sense of any of this.


That’s just the tip fo the iceberg. But thank you for the welcome and I am looking forward to learning to behave differently myself and learn to set boundaries about my own personal safety, both physical and mental.

[kells76]

Hi KayakerDude, adding my voice to welcome you to the group.

12 years is a significant amount of time; you've been through a lot. Do you and your W have any kids?

She wants to date, and continue with marriage counseling. And she is seeing a therapist herself. But through her opening my Amazon package (spying on me for sure although she claims it was an accident) she saw the book (SWOE) and went nuts about it. That was Friday and I defused the moment as best I could but apparently that is her main topic to discuss tomorrow at counseling. Because as she says “that is so wrong, so not okay!”
But it is the only thing that has ever helped me make sense of any of this.

How did counseling go?

[KayakerDude]

We do each have two kids. But our youngest is 21, and all have been out of the house for years. So we are empty nesters. Although seeing things now I wish I had made very different decisions regarding their emotional safety.

As for marriage counseling last night, it went fairly well. She tried to use me reading the book as an attack but the counselor shut that down pretty quickly and was on the side that it is a fair and reasonable thing to do. I also explained that nothing in the book was negative about her, as in nothing I learn would cause me to treat her with anything but decency, and respect and only respecting my own boundaries. She eventually accepted that I think mostly because the counselor really encouraged her to accept it that way.
She complains she doesn't have autonomy in our relationship, but keeps wanting to control me and I think finally the counselor is really seeing that.

Thanks for the reply btw.

[kells76]

As for marriage counseling last night, it went fairly well. She tried to use me reading the book as an attack but the counselor shut that down pretty quickly and was on the side that it is a fair and reasonable thing to do. I also explained that nothing in the book was negative about her, as in nothing I learn would cause me to treat her with anything but decency, and respect and only respecting my own boundaries. She eventually accepted that I think mostly because the counselor really encouraged her to accept it that way.

That wasn't your first MC appointment, was it?

Does she seem to trust the MC?

She complains she doesn't have autonomy in our relationship, but keeps wanting to control me

Yes, if she's struggling with BPD-type traits, behaviors, and mindsets, then it's going to be difficult for her accurately to assess who's doing what in the relationship. Occasionally I'll read here about a member with a partner with BPD, and the pwBPD is yelling, but shouts at the member: "Stop yelling!" The pwBPD can identify "yelling is happening" but has an impairment, as it were, when it comes to attributing causality and taking responsibility. Kind of makes sense given that part of BPD is a poor or lacking sense of self.

Do you know what kind of individual T your wife is in? DBT is considered among the top approaches, though there are others that can be effective.

She complains she doesn't have autonomy in our relationship, but keeps wanting to control me and I think finally the counselor is really seeing that.

It can be really validating when a third-party professional seems to see what we're seeing. pwBPD aren't the only ones who desire validation!

Do you feel like you can trust the MC?

...

Something to keep in mind for marriage counseling is that the "target issue" isn't "her behaviors only" or "your behaviors only". The "target " is the relationship dynamic between you two. There may be times, if there haven't been already, when the MC turns to you and says something like "OK KayakerDude, Ms. KayakerDude has shared that she feels XYZ when you do ABC. This seems to be impacting the relationship. What are you willing to change about ABC?"

If you can stay in the mindset that MC isn't about "who is to blame", "who is really controlling", "whose side is the MC on", etc, but about reviving and healing the relationship (if at all possible), then those times when the MC turns the spotlight on you can be less surprising.

Thanks for the reply btw.

You're welcome -- this place has been a lifesaver for me. Looking forward to hearing more updates from you;

kells76

[KayakerDude]

It was not our first counseling session. We've been going for about 5 months, weekly but it has only gotten worse at home because or in spite of it.

She does seem to trust the MC, as do I.

It's funny you talk about how she might not be able to accurately assess who is doing what as we had a mild text conversation today were she completely lost the plot and accused me of being confused. As I am learning that that is what affects her being I am more able to understand these otherwise crazy feeling actions/beliefs/feelings. I am struggling to keep track of what is real and not and I feel often it is like she is trying to confuse me, but after reading SWOE I am getting a better grasp of how the world actually looks. I've never struggled with seeing reality, hard as that might sometimes, but she has been this source of confusion, obfuscation and and reality bending for me for so long I have gotten a little lost. It is good to not have that 100% of the time anymore for me since she moved out.

As for me trusting the CO. Yes, I do trust them, and I feel that in spite of the 'objective' they re supposed to be that they are finally seeing who I am am, vs. who she is. It keeps happening that I am attacked during the sessions, that she attempts to control me, when I am letting her be completely autonomous. And yeah, it feels incredibly validating to see that the independent observer is seeing reality like I do. That has been a huge lifesaver for me.
She is seeing a psychologist, that at least specializes on CBT, not sure about DBT though. My wife has been curious if bipolar or ADHD was the cause of her issues, but seems incredibly resistant the the idea of BPD. Not sure why, as you can learn to not be BPD anymore, but Bipolar is a systemic issue of the mental system. That astounds me daily.

And your comments about how to use/view/treat MC are invaluable. I have approached it with complete candor, (best as I am able of course) as a way for us BOTH to learn how to love each other better. And I freely admit the ineffectual coping mechanisms I have learned/enacted as my own issues to solve.
So far in MC I have been making changes and been willing to accept some hard truths about my own behavior, due to experiences I've lived with my wife or not. And so far she is mad at me because: "how can you just change like that for the better?"
And after some days of reflection I was able to answer: "Because those behaviors fly in the face of how I want to live, what I believe about the world, and how I want to treat you. I am sorry for the hurt I have caused you and I don't want to do that again so it is easy for me to go back to the person I truly am."
That answers, no matter how heartfelt or true encountered anger and resistance.

My main issue with MC is that we keep circling the same, solved issues. She does''t seem to know how to let go and move on. And I am learning the perhaps that is all she can ever do. I guess I am trying to figure out how much effort I want to expend on her at this point.
It is hard knowing that only a small percentage of people that separate ever come back together, and with her being BPD, it seems impossible.

On a positive note, she came over for dinner tonight, and was polite and I think had a nice time. I did however have to set limits on the moments she wanted to stir up drama. But overall it was nice, she hugged and kissed me before she left so that was a positive.

Thank you again, this is a lifesaver moment for me, and I hope you feel the significance of your interactions here.

Thank you.

[kells76]

It was not our first counseling session. We've been going for about 5 months, weekly but it has only gotten worse at home because or in spite of it.

5 months is a decent track record; that seems meaningful that both of you have stuck with MC for that long.

What does/did it look like for things to "get worse at home"? Am I remembering that your W moved out in late Feb -- were things "getting worse at home" before then but have changed since then, or...?

She does seem to trust the MC, as do I.

Really good to hear, especially that she seems to be able to trust the MC even after the MC lightly confronted her about the book.

It's funny you talk about how she might not be able to accurately assess who is doing what as we had a mild text conversation today were she completely lost the plot and accused me of being confused. As I am learning that that is what affects her being I am more able to understand these otherwise crazy feeling actions/beliefs/feelings. I am struggling to keep track of what is real and not and I feel often it is like she is trying to confuse me, but after reading SWOE I am getting a better grasp of how the world actually looks. I've never struggled with seeing reality, hard as that might sometimes, but she has been this source of confusion, obfuscation and and reality bending for me for so long I have gotten a little lost. It is good to not have that 100% of the time anymore for me since she moved out.

When those kinds of text conversations happen, where accusations start up, what do you typically do?

It can be easy to forget that you aren't required to continue the conversation or participate 

As for me trusting the CO. Yes, I do trust them, and I feel that in spite of the 'objective' they re supposed to be that they are finally seeing who I am am, vs. who she is. It keeps happening that I am attacked during the sessions, that she attempts to control me, when I am letting her be completely autonomous. And yeah, it feels incredibly validating to see that the independent observer is seeing reality like I do. That has been a huge lifesaver for me.
She is seeing a psychologist, that at least specializes on CBT, not sure about DBT though. My wife has been curious if bipolar or ADHD was the cause of her issues, but seems incredibly resistant the the idea of BPD. Not sure why, as you can learn to not be BPD anymore, but Bipolar is a systemic issue of the mental system. That astounds me daily.

Disordered and illogical thinking can sometimes be a "feature", not a "bug", of BPD. To me, it'd be less surprising that she is resistant to having BPD (despite the logical fact that if you participate in treatment you can improve), because... she has BPD. It has helped me to pivot from "I'm surprised, shocked, shaken, and caught off guard every time the pwBPD does something wacky/hurtful", and towards "when the pwBPD in my life does something hurtful or says something irrational, I have chosen to expect that behavior, not be thrown off by it -- even if it isn't OK". It can sometimes help to expect disordered behavior vs reacting in shock to repeated disordered behavior. "Yes, there she goes again, that is what she will choose to do if she isn't in meaningful treatment. Now, what can I do to help myself?"

And your comments about how to use/view/treat MC are invaluable. I have approached it with complete candor, (best as I am able of course) as a way for us BOTH to learn how to love each other better. And I freely admit the ineffectual coping mechanisms I have learned/enacted as my own issues to solve.
So far in MC I have been making changes and been willing to accept some hard truths about my own behavior, due to experiences I've lived with my wife or not. And so far she is mad at me because: "how can you just change like that for the better?"
And after some days of reflection I was able to answer: "Because those behaviors fly in the face of how I want to live, what I believe about the world, and how I want to treat you. I am sorry for the hurt I have caused you and I don't want to do that again so it is easy for me to go back to the person I truly am."
That answers, no matter how heartfelt or true encountered anger and resistance.

Am I following what happened -- she asked "how can you just change like that for the better", you responded "because XYZ", and she responded with anger and resistance? Was that it?

My main issue with MC is that we keep circling the same, solved issues. She does''t seem to know how to let go and move on. And I am learning the perhaps that is all she can ever do. I guess I am trying to figure out how much effort I want to expend on her at this point.
It is hard knowing that only a small percentage of people that separate ever come back together, and with her being BPD, it seems impossible.

I've heard that going back and trying to "resolve" the past is kind of a dead end with pwBPD. If she has BPD, then she has a serious mental illness that impacts her ability to regulate her emotions. "Generally normal" people can feel pain/betrayal/etc when we think about past hurts... it's uncomfortable, yet we manage and cope. She can't do that and may have impaired insight and beliefs about "what will make her feel better". She may not have the ability to recognize that emotional resolution can only come from inside of her, so she keeps wanting to feel resolution for past stuff, but can't, but also can't figure out how to give it to her self. Externalizing seems to happen frequently with pwBPD: "If only you'd say it in the perfect way, then I'd finally feel like you were really sorry".

Again, this may be a feature, not a bug, of being in a relationship with a pwBPD. It may help to lower or let go of expectations that you two can "rationally talk through the past" and "calmly get closure about past hurts".

You are in one of the drivers' seats in MC. Do you want to keep circling past issues? You also have the option to raise your wants: "There has been hurt in the past, and we can't change that. I'm ready to learn how we can move forward and have a better future, no matter what has happened. I'd like some help from Counselor to find healthy ways forward."

On a positive note, she came over for dinner tonight, and was polite and I think had a nice time. I did however have to set limits on the moments she wanted to stir up drama. But overall it was nice, she hugged and kissed me before she left so that was a positive.

Is your MC helping the two of you talk about and/or structure these meetups?

Thank you again, this is a lifesaver moment for me, and I hope you feel the significance of your interactions here.

Thank you.

I may have mentioned it before, but this site has been a lifesaver for me, too 

[KayakerDude]

So a lot has happened since I last posted.

Firstly she contacted me early i the morning two weeks ago now saying she needed to go to Urgent Care as she was doing so poorly from mental illness. She was barely eating for days, hardly sleeping and couldn’t stop shaking and crying. I was understandably affected and gave her the advice I could and eventually she asked if I could come bring her home. As in, to come live at home again.

She also admitted finally that she has some kind of a serious mental health issue that effects her life and way of thinking all the time. She won’t accept it might be BPD, and instead keeps saying it is Major Depressive, or Post-Traumatic Stress or ADHD, but from what I experience none of those come close to describing my life iwth her like BPD does. But she is resistant of that diagnosis.

But I agreed to pick her up and bring her home.

That was two weeks ago and right now I am questioning if I made the right choice. It is so hard seeing someone you love so dearly suffering so much and I made a conscious choice to accept her back into my life. And for the first week it was great, she was gentle as a lamb, appreciative and although I kept reminding myself not to accept the pedestal and even talking with her about how I was worried I would suddenly become her worst enemy in a few days . . . It happened about 5 days ago.

Now I am trying to figure out if I have the strength to handle this. I do truly lover this woman and using your suggestions about expecting the behavious rather than being surprised has helped a lot. As has setting boundaries about what behavious I will no longer accept. But it’s hard having the whirlwind back in my day to day life.

I cried during marriage counseling last night talking about my feelings, and while I see that she feels some of what she does to me, it is just the barest scratch on the surface of the deep, deep grooves of hurt.

I will try and respond to your questions in your last post, just had to get some stuff out here now.

[Pook075]

She also admitted finally that she has some kind of a serious mental health issue that effects her life and way of thinking all the time. She won’t accept it might be BPD, and instead keeps saying it is Major Depressive, or Post-Traumatic Stress or ADHD, but from what I experience none of those come close to describing my life iwth her like BPD does. But she is resistant of that diagnosis.

Hey Kayaker.  I'm glad you're doing somewhat better and the therapist is helping.  Continue to share your thoughts and experiences there, because even though it may seem like its barely scratching the surface, your words are heard.

Another thing, don't worry about the labels because they mean absolutely nothing, except to a psychiatrist or therapist.  Whether this is PTSD or Bipolar or BPD or something else entirely, the path forward in your relationship would essentially be the same.  Better communication (from both of you) can reduce the worst of your interactions.

Between us, we can call it BPD.  And if you're wrong, there's no harm, no foul because you'd be learning how to better communicate regardless.  Try to avoid that term with her though until there's a formal diagnosis.  With my informally diagnosed BPD ex-wife, I just refer to "mental health problems" and that gets the point across just fine. 

The main thing is that she ended up in urgent care with the realization that she needs help- that's a massive self discovery that a lot of pwBPD never get to.  Very good news and it means there's a chance of a different path forward.  What you want to avoid is weaponizing that- she's sick and thinks differently, and that's okay.  Mental health does not mean broken or worthless, and it would do you well to keep that in mind when she's less than civil.

Continue to share, rant, or whatever you need to do...that's not a problem at all and we're here to help.  Don't hesitate to ask specific questions as well though when you're facing a tough situation.