one step at a time

[Depression = 72% of members]

Tina,

You may have people saying you should get out there and meet someone else. I’m not saying that at all. I’m not saying you should force yourself to be interested in or care about or be attracted to someone else. I’m saying, I personally think you will be. After all that has come to pass, I am convinced that everything works out as it is supposed to. And that one day you will look back and realise why it all had to be this way. I don’t think a person like yourself would end up alone forever. My concern is that, if and when you do meet someone you are attracted to and interested in and care for and maybe even fall deeply in love… I want you to learn to love and respect yourself enough first to make sure they treat you right, and if they don’t, to walk away knowing they’re not good enough for you. I’m sorry, I know it’s none of my business. What can I say, I’m codependent, I care far too much about other people’s lives.

[thankful person]

Tina,

You may have people saying you should get out there and meet someone else. I’m not saying that at all. I’m not saying you should force yourself to be interested in or care about or be attracted to someone else. I’m saying, I personally think you will be. After all that has come to pass, I am convinced that everything works out as it is supposed to. And that one day you will look back and realise why it all had to be this way. I don’t think a person like yourself would end up alone forever. My concern is that, if and when you do meet someone you are attracted to and interested in and care for and maybe even fall deeply in love… I want you to learn to love and respect yourself enough first to make sure they treat you right, and if they don’t, to walk away knowing they’re not good enough for you. I’m sorry, I know it’s none of my business. What can I say, I’m codependent, I care far too much about other people’s lives.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pook075]

1) I feel anxious when I am blocked.

2) I feel happy briefly when we were talking.

3) I feel sad again when I realize he doesn`t want to be with me.

4) I feel hopeful when he seems to be warming up to me.

5) I let go and then I miss him.

6) He`s receptive and then he doesn`t speak to me.

Hey Tina,

If you look at your six statements above, each of them are how you feel when he does something.  That's giving him way too much power over your mental health and wellbeing.  You must be happy as Tina while being Tina...with no strings attached.

I know this is the bettering board and you said earlier that you haven't detached.  Nobody here has a right to tell you to move on, and I don't think you should if you're not ready for that.  But at the same time, you have to break that codependency because he does not have your best interests at heart today.

Detaching doesn't mean giving up.  Detaching means finding yourself without him in the immediate picture.  I hope that makes sense.

[tina7868]

Thank you for your replies! I still have a lot of learning to do.

Both of your messages are giving me elements to ponder, and direction for how I want to move forward.

I think a renewal of intent is in order. I haven’t defined what that intention is exactly yet. I think it’s somewhere between finding myself, being happy and grateful with my life, and not giving up because I don’t want to (and being okay with that).

My answer is short today because I am on a trip with friends. I feel happy and nostalgic right now. Somehow okay with everything. I think the unknown is what scares me the most. I also find that with friends I find humour in the situation. I’ve learned from this community how to be more vulnerable and accepting of myself, and I feel like that allows for better connections even with people who I have known for years. My ex being how he is. Like I said, it’s the unknown of whether or not I’ll hear from him again that scares me the most.

[once removed]

I think what I feel is love. When some people hear about it, it may be seen as...

the key to breaking anxious attachment wont come through mastering someone elses moods or whims. its finding security.

i know; that sounds a little bit like "want to lose weight? stop eating". but its chicken or egg. he does things that trigger your anxiety, but that anxiety, and intermittent reinforcement is likely part of the draw. if you were coming at it from a place of security, the draw, and the hurt reactions behind it, would likely not be present, or would be significantly reduced.

sure what you feel is love. but love can be complicated, and the dynamic in this particular case, is.

I only have this one serious relationship to base myself off.
...
And I don`t want to be with someone who I feel meh about.

the reason i asked about dating was not to suggest using it as a means to detach yourself from him (although it may help put the relationship less at the forefront), nor as a quest for finding mr right, necessarily.  

relationships teach us about ourselves, about others, about who we are in relation to others. they also teach us to expand our ideas of love, and our ability to do it.

if you lack experience at dating, experience is the way to master it.

if you want to break anxious attachment, gaining perspective on those things is a significant part of it. youre forced to endure rejection, and self soothe. you learn to put that rejection in perspective. youre forced to reject others, and self soothe the anxiety that can come from that. you get to know people, all kinds of people. you get to experiment, with yourself, and with others. it is really the ultimate way to learn to deal with people, and with yourself.

dating really is a numbers game. the best shot at it comes from meeting as many people as you can, getting as much experience and growth as you can get out of it, a whoooole lot of bad experiences, and a combination of timing and luck.

I can focus on myself and lead a fulfilling life with no partner. But then, I am realizing that I crave a relationship too

an anxious attachment can make for a powerful attraction to someone with an avoidant attachment. it has a way of seeking out emotional unavailability, and precluding secure attachment. repeated experiences with that tend to teach the wrong lessons. in my own case, it led (subconsciously) to picking "safer" partners. i found someone seemingly incapable of leaving me, who was possessive, and smothering to the point that my own attachment looked largely avoidant, until she too, left, and i was shattered. the facade of security i was searching for, was shattered.

this is all stuff that you can master, and thrive. but it takes practice, and it requires some discomfort.

[tina7868]

the key to breaking anxious attachment wont come through mastering someone elses moods or whims. its finding security

I am ready to put intentional effort towards finding security. I feel so tired of being in this situation.

sure what you feel is love. but love can be complicated, and the dynamic in this particular case, is.

What is the dynamic? This might sound like a simple question. What is going on?

an anxious attachment can make for a powerful attraction to someone with an avoidant attachment. it has a way of seeking out emotional unavailability, and precluding secure attachment. repeated experiences with that tend to teach the wrong lessons. in my own case, it led (subconsciously) to picking "safer" partners. i found someone seemingly incapable of leaving me, who was possessive, and smothering to the point that my own attachment looked largely avoidant, until she too, left, and i was shattered. the facade of security i was searching for, was shattered.

this is all stuff that you can master, and thrive. but it takes practice, and it requires some discomfort.

My therapist spoke to me about the anxious/avoidant dynamic. Man, it’s rough.

The intermittent reinforcement feels like a genuine connection. I was telling my friends about other things my ex had told me, that probably unconsciously, felt like intermittent reinforcement. 1) He had told me that his girlfriend has the same laugh as me, and that 2) he showed me a piece of art he had chosen for their place, depicting a woman who looked exactly like me  . He said look, she has the same hair/skin color/ clothing style as you. Only when I said this out loud did I realize how weird it was  .I think it leaves me feeling like, well, there is clearly something there on his end, surely it can’t be over?

I am ready to try. I miss him a lot, but I want to try.

[once removed]

What is the dynamic? This might sound like a simple question. What is going on?

romantic partners. two people that have desired each other at different/opposing times. friends with a long history. friends with mixed/blurry intentions.

the two of you have been a number of "things", all of them complicated.

from 30000 ft up, it looks something like this:

When couples disagree about the degree of closeness and intimacy desired in a relationship, the issue eventually threatens to dominate all of their dialog. This is called the anxious-avoidant trap. The reason people in an anxious-avoidant relationship find it particularly hard to move toward more security is primarily because they are trapped in a cycle of exacerbating each other’s insecurities. People with an anxious attachment style cope with threats to the relationship by trying to get close to their partner. People who are avoidant have the opposite reaction. They cope with threats by taking measures to distance themselves from their partners. The closer the anxious person gets, the more distant the avoidant acts. One partner’s response reinforces the other’s in a vicious cycle, and they both remain within the relationship “danger zone.”

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=279028.0

The intermittent reinforcement feels like a genuine connection.

this is not to say that you dont have a genuine connection, or love, but to generally express the complicated nature of an anxious/avoidant connection: to a person with an anxious attachment style, that intermittent reinforcement can feel like love - like what love is supposed to be, even if it may be contrary to what they believe on paper. part of the draw is the pursuit of the illusion of connection or security, and maybe even more importantly the powerful relief from the anxieties of separation/distance that can feel like progress achieved toward a stable closeness. but theres never really that security, stability, that "okayness" present. theres always that push/pull underlying.

your strategy has largely looked like "try to get closer to him while avoiding triggering him or pushing him away". it wont work, because it fundamentally is coming from a place of insecurity within the relationship. in essence, managing your anxieties by attempting to manage his. and because hes a pathologically difficult person; to know him closely is to be subject to his triggers and his ways.

on a more human level, ex romantic partners attempting to be friends, where one is attempting to be future romantic partners, and one is currently in a romantic partnership while playing the two against each other, is just a very complicated place to be, for both of you, and thats not even to mention the complexity of a personality disorder in the mix.

is it possible to have a relationship with him without this complication(s)? theoretically, yes, but that depends upon one or both of you breaking the cycle. the very real love you have for him and the history between the two of you not withstanding, in a lot of ways, you are kryptonite for each other. but moreover, for you to become secure in what the relationship is, it would probably necessitate coming to view him, and the relationship, very differently. chicken or the egg.

[SinisterComplex]

"Detaching doesn't mean giving up.  Detaching means finding yourself without him in the immediate picture."

My dear Tina, to elaborate on the thought from Pook...he is spot on. To provide a little more context...detaching definitely doesn't mean giving up. Essentially try to take the perspective that are you letting go of control of that which you have no control over. Again to reiterate something I have trumpeted many times...indifference is key. Do not place your hopes and dreams on 1 particular outcome (this creates anxiety and desperation which is coming from a place of weakness). Keep an open mind and be free and build your foundation from there to where you are good regardless of what comes your way.

You have to truly focus on being happy with YOU for YOU and let everything else fall into place. Its more like you go out gambling purely for fun and entertainment with only $50 and that is all you are putting into it. It is your budget. However, you could win big...awesome, but that isn't the point. The point is just to have fun and just say F it and go for it! In essence, gambling is all about probability, luck, chance, etc...a lot of which is not in your control. The only thing you are in control over is your allotted budget and having fun. Whatever else happens in addition is icing on the cake because you are happy regardless of the outcomes (this is an example of coming from a place of power). Always strive to put yourself in win-win scenarios. Make sense?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[tina7868]

is it possible to have a relationship with him without this complication(s)? theoretically, yes, but that depends upon one or both of you breaking the cycle. the very real love you have for him and the history between the two of you not withstanding, in a lot of ways, you are kryptonite for each other. but moreover, for you to become secure in what the relationship is, it would probably necessitate coming to view him, and the relationship, very differently. chicken or the egg.

"Detaching doesn't mean giving up.  Detaching means finding yourself without him in the immediate picture."

My dear Tina, to elaborate on the thought from Pook...he is spot on. To provide a little more context...detaching definitely doesn't mean giving up. Essentially try to take the perspective that are you letting go of control of that which you have no control over. Again to reiterate something I have trumpeted many times...indifference is key. Do not place your hopes and dreams on 1 particular outcome (this creates anxiety and desperation which is coming from a place of weakness). Keep an open mind and be free and build your foundation from there to where you are good regardless of what comes your way.

You have to truly focus on being happy with YOU for YOU and let everything else fall into place. Its more like you go out gambling purely for fun and entertainment with only $50 and that is all you are putting into it. It is your budget. However, you could win big...awesome, but that isn't the point. The point is just to have fun and just say F Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) it and go for it! In essence, gambling is all about probability, luck, chance, etc...a lot of which is not in your control. The only thing you are in control over is your allotted budget and having fun. Whatever else happens in addition is icing on the cake because you are happy regardless of the outcomes (this is an example of coming from a place of power). Always strive to put yourself in win-win scenarios. Make sense?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Thanks for your replies, they were much needed.

I think that I not only have to view him and the relationship different, but also myself differently. I don`t want to be scared of my feelings anymore, or of life without him.

If I think about it for a moment, overall, I`m still winning in my own way. I am healthy and have good friends and there are many possibilities for the future.

I want to focus on cooking, cleaning my space, reading, exercising, exploring new neighbourhoods, working. Building my relationships, building my communication skills.

I want to be the person you describe, SC. That person wouldn`t sit in their anxiety for so long. That person would think, hey I said what I was thinking in the moment, it made him mad oh well  . I`ll either hear from him again or I won`t, it`s out of my control. If I do, great I`ll have a new perspective, if not so what, I`ll grow and meet new people (as I already have). Life will work out.