What to do with my ex son

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all

I’m starting this thread to get advice on how to proceed.

I’ve posted extensively regarding my final breakup 3 months ago under the topic Break up.

My situation is this. I was in a 12 year relationship which ended. There is no going back and I know it’s final. When I met her she had a 3yr old son who I’ve raised as my own and he is now 15.

Just for context my ex monkey branched to another guy in America (I’m in UK), it ended with her ghosting me after taking money from me to finance her trip.

She was always very abusive to us both and I’m afraid I see similar traits in him. But he does have an awareness of it unlike her.

She abandoned her son with a relative who has only seen him a handful of times while she was there. Her son has no phone so I have no direct contact with him.

However recently he contacted me (via his new phone). He states that he loves me and wants to be with me and not his Mum but she gave him permission to contact me.

So for weeks now we have been corresponding via only text. 2 days ago he admitted that his Mum doesn’t know he is texting me.

So I’m in a bit of pickle here as he is not my biological son, he is only 15 and is contacting me without his Mums permission

I texted him back saying he need to get permission and I will text her again asking for contact. But he has carried on texting me.

Yesterday he turned up at my doorstep and said he can’t stand being there anymore. I tried calling her 10 times and no answer then we tried from his phone and again no answer.

Police turned up last night as she reported it. Luckily they were good with me as my ex does have a history with them. Plus I showed that I’ve been trying to call her.

I love him and I can’t kick him out. But the police said he has to go back so he did.

He has carried on texting me today and I’m just worried about how she will react if she knew.

Does anyone have any advice on this. Namely do I have any parental rights to him (I’m in the uk and it’s not very clear what my right are) and secondly has anyone else had children who seem to show the same traits or behaviours as their BPd partner and how do I deal with it (insist he goes therapy?).

Like I said I’m not interested in having any relationship with my ex and in fact I know this is stopping my own healing process but he comes first in my eyes and I want him to live with me.

[Brokenmind]

Hi all

I’m starting this thread to get advice on how to proceed.

I’ve posted extensively regarding my final breakup 3 months ago under the topic Break up.

My situation is this. I was in a 12 year relationship which ended. There is no going back and I know it’s final. When I met her she had a 3yr old son who I’ve raised as my own and he is now 15.

Just for context my ex monkey branched to another guy in America (I’m in UK), it ended with her ghosting me after taking money from me to finance her trip.

She was always very abusive to us both and I’m afraid I see similar traits in him. But he does have an awareness of it unlike her.

She abandoned her son with a relative who has only seen him a handful of times while she was there. Her son has no phone so I have no direct contact with him.

However recently he contacted me (via his new phone). He states that he loves me and wants to be with me and not his Mum but she gave him permission to contact me.

So for weeks now we have been corresponding via only text. 2 days ago he admitted that his Mum doesn’t know he is texting me.

So I’m in a bit of pickle here as he is not my biological son, he is only 15 and is contacting me without his Mums permission

I texted him back saying he need to get permission and I will text her again asking for contact. But he has carried on texting me.

Yesterday he turned up at my doorstep and said he can’t stand being there anymore. I tried calling her 10 times and no answer then we tried from his phone and again no answer.

Police turned up last night as she reported it. Luckily they were good with me as my ex does have a history with them. Plus I showed that I’ve been trying to call her.

I love him and I can’t kick him out. But the police said he has to go back so he did.

He has carried on texting me today and I’m just worried about how she will react if she knew.

Does anyone have any advice on this. Namely do I have any parental rights to him (I’m in the uk and it’s not very clear what my right are) and secondly has anyone else had children who seem to show the same traits or behaviours as their BPd partner and how do I deal with it (insist he goes therapy?).

Like I said I’m not interested in having any relationship with my ex and in fact I know this is stopping my own healing process but he comes first in my eyes and I want him to live with me.

[kells76]

Hi Brokenmind;

It's so hard to navigate BPD relationships when children are involved. We just want to love and take care of the kids, but disordered behaviors from the other parent can make that very difficult.

Am I recalling correctly that you were never married to your ex?

And what is the age of majority for children in the UK -- is it 18?

...

There's the legal side of things and the relational side of things.

Legally, my guess is you may not have standing to have SS15 live with you. His mom seems to be within her rights to determine where her son will live and who she will allow him to contact.

This would be worth double-checking with a lawyer (or attorney or solicitor) in your area, just to be sure. If you have "acted as" his father despite not being married to his mother, it is possible you may have some rights -- but that isn't guaranteed. Often, initial interviews or consultations with legal professionals can be free or lower cost. Having the peace of mind and certainty of your standing could be worth whatever you have to pay.

Relationally, you can consider reassuring SS15 that you will be there for him when he is an adult and is free to choose who he spends time with and calls -- you aren't going anywhere and are committed to his well-being. In the meantime, in order to minimize the chances of his mother completely cutting him off from you, you and SS15 may need to tolerate the distress and discomfort of her parental behaviors, especially avoiding going behind her back.

I wonder if there is any "door in" to her where she might agree to SS15 spending occasional time with you -- some agreement where she would feel like she is "winning" or "on top"? I.e., does she value seeing herself as "a good mom"? Is there a way to find agreement with her that "good moms support their children seeing their stepparents/parental figures"? Not saying to just flatter her or butter her up, but given what you know about her and what's important to her self-image, I'm wondering if there's an extra-legal way for the two of you to reach some visitation agreement -- even if it isn't SS15 residing with you.

Difficult stuff 

[ForeverDad]

He is of school age.  Does he know that schools have counselors who can step in with objective perspectives, skills and observations?  They're there to help the students and he definitely can use all the help he can get.

There's a saying ... older teens sometimes are allowed to vote with their feet.  That is, they can drive, they can get part time work, etc.

Yes, crossing the ocean on his own is a bit much, but it seems she left him behind in your country with one of her relatives?  That would indicate she isn't personally parenting him either.  Is that relative willing to communicate, if legally appropriate?

Mother doesn't want him living with you but could periodic visits or vacations be allowed?  We always tell the disadvantaged 'parent' that some contact is better than no contact.

Meanwhile I agree that holding out the option that he can live his life with more freedom in a couple years would fight hopeless feelings.

[Brokenmind]

Hi Kells

Thank you for the replying

Am I recalling correctly that you were never married to your ex?

And what is the age of majority for children in the UK -- is it 18?

Yes you are correct I never married my ex and the age of maturity in the Uk is 18

I looked into this and there are two criteria for a parental responsibility agreement.

Firstly, you must be married to the biological parent that the child lives with. Secondly you must have the signed consent of every other person with parental responsibility for the child.

So I have no rights as I’m not the biological parent and I need written consent from not only my ex but also his biological father who has not seen or spoken to him since he was 3 years old.

may need to tolerate the distress and discomfort of her parental behaviors, especially avoiding going behind her back.

I’ve tried and I also didn’t know she didn’t give permission. It was only 2 days ago where he admitted she never told him he could text me.

I did make it clear to him they we need her permission before we carry on communicating and I sent her a text but have had no reply. He then told me she lied  as if I never texted her annd just asked him if he wants to speak to me and he said yes. She hasn’t mentioned it since to him.

But this is my problem, he has carried on texting me, I don’t have the heart to tell to stop but I make it clear in each communication that he needs to get his Mum agreement.

I.e., does she value seeing herself as "a good mom"? Not saying to just flatter her or butter her up, but given what you know about her and what's important to her self-image, I'm wondering if there's an extra-legal way for the two of you to reach some visitation agreement -- even if it isn't SS15 residing with you.

She won’t talk to me or text at all and she has ignored 3 texts of mine regarding her son. I did try buttering her up in way by saying I don’t hate her for what she did and that whatever has happened has happened and I only want to discuss her son as I love him. But again no response.

It certainly is difficult. Regarding whether she sees herself as a good mum. I don’t think she even wants to be one she seems to see her son as an extension of herself or a burden she wished she never had, in her words hundreds of times “he ruined my life”.

What hurts me the most is her abuse of him. She constantly screams at him still and barely feeds him plus he is behind on school as she decide to home school him for the last 2 years.

I just feel so lost and helpless and it is really breaking my heart as he is telling me this by text everyday.

[Brokenmind]

Hi ForeverDad

Thank you in kind for replying, ira really appreciated.

Does he know that schools have counselors who can step in with objective perspectives, skills and observations?  They're there to help the students and he definitely can use all the help he can get.

This is the problem, she started homeschooling him 2 years ago for selfish reasons and it’s gone disastrously. She is trying to get him back into school but doesn’t seem to do anything and is more concerned with what the council will do to her rather than what’s happening with him.

Yes, crossing the ocean on his own is a bit much, but it seems she left him behind in your country with one of her relatives?  That would indicate she isn't personally parenting him either.  Is that relative willing to communicate, if legally appropriate?

So to put it in to context, we all live in the UK, we started living separately two years ago after she cheated on me, but we were still together and and I was supporting her financially as well with her son, she cheated on me with someone who lives in America and lied to me for cash and left him with his Nan. I then found out while she was there.

So the Nan I have no contact with at all. But once she came back after 3 weeks he is now back with her.

Mother doesn't want him living with you but could periodic visits or vacations be allowed? 

I suggested of this would be a possibility to her son but he is adamant that his Mum really really hates me at the moment.

Meanwhile I agree that holding out the option that he can live his life with more freedom in a couple years would fight hopeless feelings.

Oh we discussed this and he wants to move in with me once he is able to legally. It’s the here and now that I’m not sure what to do.

So my ex who hates me (I’m guessing for finding out she was cheating again who knows),

Her son who is 15 is secretly sending me texts and then deleting them. I’ve made it clear in the texts that I thought she knew all this time.

But for the last 2 days he is texting me still. And it’s about what abuse he is suffering from her, the screaming, not adequately feeding him, no movement on going  back to school and the constant smoking of cannabis.

I feel like I’m his only outlet so I don’t want to tell him to stop texting me and abandon him.

I’m just terrified of her finding out and what she may do.

[ForeverDad]

He sounds like he can at least handle some responsibilities and - to an extent - stand up for himself.  Perhaps he ought to report himself to his local children's services agency, that he wants back in regular school and food, etc?

What's hard to know in advance is whether his current situation with housing, education, food, etc is "actionable" for an agency to step in.  There are rules and laws but they're not necessarily cut and dried in stone, typically family services has some level of discretion on how it responds.

As for him texting you, you have little control over his actions, all you control is your response.  Let me compare the situation to a similar scenario.  Imagine his mother was in therapy and you had something to share with her therapist.  But her therapist doesn't have her permission to share information or even communicate with you.  That wouldn't necessarily limit you from updating the therapist, he just couldn't respond.

Perhaps it is similar with the teen?  You can't respond technically but you can't stop him from texting.  So... listen?

[Notwendy]

I don't know what is in the UK but In the US, I think calls to child protective services are anonymous. If you made the call, they would investigate. He would have the opportunity to speak up about the abuse, no food, and the pot smoking. If he got removed from the home, I wonder if you could apply to be the foster parent?

I think in the US, many teens are placed in group homes if they can't live wit their parents. Even if he was placed in a group home, that might be better than living alone with his BPD mother.

I wonder if there are similar services in the UK?

[EyesUp]

@BMind,

I like the direction @FD is going here.

I'll add this:

What would you do if he was your biological son, or if you and your ex were still happily together?   My guess is that you'd consider how to encourage and support a 15yo son to develop into a self-sufficient and satisfied adult.

As FD suggested, carefully consider how you engage with him.  That's the only thing you truly can do.

If he's home schooled, he might have some schedule flexibility and the ability to begin to work outside the home.  Encourage him to get some part time work - even volunteer work - anything that will get him out of the house and into something that promotes independence, independent thinking, and interaction with others.  

I'm guessing that your ex might make this difficult, but it's a perfectly normal thing for a 15yo to do... so don't encourage him to defy his mom, but do encourage him to take responsibility for himself.

In parallel, I completely support "playing the long game" - in less than 3 years, if you want to open your doors to him, let him know that you'll always be there for him.

My sense is that you need to navigate this very carefully - to avoid setting him up to jump from mom's ship to yours without any actual plan for himself at the age of 18.  

If mom is not promoting next steps - work, school, etc. - then it indirectly falls to you to share ideas and hope they take hold.  The opportunity here is not to be a rescuer, but to act like a father under very challenging circumstances.  That means promoting independence, rather than enmeshment and dependency - which is often a part of the BPD experience.

Finally - does he have a smartphone?  If yes, you might want to communicate via some app with encryption in order to avoid a trail of calls or texts.  i.e., even if he deletes texts, they may still show up on the phone bill.  On the other hand, you can chat or even call via whatsapp (or some other apps) without creating a history on the phone bill.  Ask me how I know about this... Ironically, I learned all about it when my uBPDxw had her affair...

[Brokenmind]

Hey FD thanks for the response.

He sounds like he can at least handle some responsibilities and - to an extent - stand up for himself.  Perhaps he ought to report himself to his local children's services agency, that he wants back in regular school and food, etc?

He would be too afraid of being taken into care to do that. I’ve been his father figure for the last 12 years. 10 years of that was living in my house and I did everything to make sure his needs were met, that’s why we have such a bond. But I feel guilty for the last 2 years when they moved out and they way she has been with him. I have thought on many occasions to report it myself as you can do it anonymously but in the UK unless it’s physical, or worse, abuse they don’t do anything.

She will be getting in trouble for the school debacle but most likely a fine.

Perhaps it is similar with the teen?  You can't respond technically but you can't stop him from texting.  So... listen?

But how do I even begin to tell him he can carryon texting me but I just won’t respond? It will break his heart.

That’s my problem right now. He has been abandoned and let down enough and I don’t want to do the same to him. But at the same time I’m worried that I’m texting him without her consent.

[Brokenmind]

Thanks NotWendy

There is in the UK too but unfortunately services are really stretched so it takes a lot for them to remove the child so as long as he is not in physical danger they don’t do anything.

She does feed him but from what he has been telling me not regularly, so a sandwich and a meal really late and it’s normally a takeaway. It breaks my heart as for 10 years i used to make his breakfast and prepare his lunch for school and cook dinner when I got home from work and now he is enduring this.

Also there are homes in the UK but they are notoriously rough places and I wouldn’t want him there either.

Thing is if it came down to it I have my own home and can work from home too if I wish so I know they would allow him to live with me. But she would never let him live with me despite what he wants.

[Brokenmind]

What would you do if he was your biological son, or if you and your ex were still happily together?   My guess is that you'd consider how to encourage and support a 15yo son to develop into a self-sufficient and satisfied adult.

This exactly what I want. He feels abandoned and abused by his Mother. Even whilst together although I ignored her abuse to me I could not with her abuse of him. He is the main reason I would get actually angry and the main reason I stayed for the last 5 years of the relationship.

All I want from her is to allow me to be part of his life.. That’s it. I don’t care about anything else and I wish her relationship does go well and she decides to live there with him which may give rise to him moving in with me.

If he's home schooled, he might have some schedule flexibility and the ability to begin to work outside the home.  Encourage him to get some part time work - even volunteer work - anything that will get him out of the house and into something that promotes independence, independent thinking, and interaction with others.  

I'm guessing that your ex might make this difficult, but it's a perfectly normal thing for a 15yo to do... so don't encourage him to defy his mom, but do encourage him to take responsibility for himself.

She already told him to get a job when he turns 16 but I don’t think that would help him. He is too far behind in his schooling. I already pay for him to go martial arts, and football. He already volunteers with me for a cancer charity but I’ve  offered to pay for private tutoring for him to catch up which she refused despite this being what he needs.

All I want from her is to allow me to be part of his life.. That’s it. I don’t care about anything else and I wish her relationship does go well and she decides to live there with him which may give rise to him moving in with me.

In parallel, I completely support "playing the long game" - in less than 3 years, if you want to open your doors to him, let him know that you'll always be there for him.

[/quote

My hope is that when he turns 16 he will move in with me. But legally I don’t think he can until he is 18. And thats the issue if I’m not allowed contact or just him texting me with no reply from me; will he feel the same about me in 3 years?

I assume she intends to move to America with this guy so if that happens maybe she will allow it as her son thinks this is what she wants. But whether she will allow him to live with me is another matter as she (in his words) hates me so much.
.  

Finally - does he have a smartphone?  If yes, you might want to communicate via some app with encryption in order to avoid a trail of calls or texts.  i.e., even if he deletes texts, they may still show up on the phone bill.  On the other hand, you can chat or even call via whatsapp (or some other apps) without creating a history on the phone bill.  Ask me how I know about this... Ironically, I learned all about it when my uBPDxw had her affair...

We only communicate via WhatsApp text via WiFi so he delayed the chat each time. He does not call me because she is constantly there and only has when she goes shopping for 5-10min. Again he deletes it.

It’s how I found out about her second cheating on me. So I kinda had to learn about that as well. It’s funny because she taught me how to check from how she used to check my phone everyday. (Going into deleted folders, checking the archive for messages, looking at when I last used WhatsApp etc)

This is so hard for me right now.

Not only am I trying to get through my own depression and devastation of my life as well as this. Me and her son have such a strong bond as for 10 years (most of his life) we all lived together and we were both victims of her. Him more so.

He is what I feel guilty about. I feel like I abandoned him 2 years ago to save myself and only made things worse by enabling her behaviours by financially supporting her and keeping my life on hold.

I feel like in 12 years I destroyed my career, lost my friends and family as we became enmeshed and now I’ve lost my son. So all that pain and suffering is immense and  I stayed because he and to be honest her was all I had left.

I just feel so stupid and less of a man. Why couldn’t I have done things differently? Why did I give up on everything for her? Why did I not leave when I saw her abuse not only of me but of him. I bloody condoned it in a way.

Typical day would be she screams at him for playing on his iPad and although she has a point she would reduce him to tears with the hateful words she used. I would get angry and try and resolve it but how do you explain to a child that when his Mother says “you ugly piece of s@#t i hate you and wish i aborted you, go back to your ugly Dad” what can you say to make it better? I would just sit there hugging him and telling him she doesn’t mean that.

In an ideal world, I wish that she moves to America and asks if I want to look after her son. Her family don’t speak to her at all but I have good relations with them. So I will also have their support if he lives with me.

Waiting till he turns 18 I fear where he would be in life. Uneducated, jobless, angry and with a lot of childhood trauma to deal with. I want him to go to university, get a good job and lead a good life.

My other fear personally is that he has developed his own personality disorder and I will always have her abusive  shadow in my life. All my family are telling me they don’t think it’s a good idea and I need to cut cleanly but I can’t abandon him.

[Notwendy]

I have a mother with BPD and it seems cruel on her part to not allow her son to have contact with you. You are the only father he knows. While you feel badly about how this situation happened- she has her role in it too- her restrictions are not in his best interest.

If it's any consolation- your being there for him to speak to does mean a lot. We were not allowed to speak to anyone about my BPD mother's behavior to anyone- and this young man has you to speak to.

I don't think it's possible to predict if a child of a pwBPD will have a PD themselves. There is some genetic predispositon but it's not 100%. I don't have BPD. I think other consequences such as anxiety, behavior issues may be more prevalent but not necessarily so.

Being behind in school is concerning but one doesn't know why that is- is he anxious, depressed, inconsistent home schooling,  or even has a learning difference. University at 18 may not be in reach for him right away but there is trade school or even working a job for a bit after high school to figure out what jobs suit him.

If the best you can do is be there to speak to, and he knows you have confidence in him, that is something. Yes, you left his mother but staying with her also doesn't stop her behavior. My parents stayed together. I think my father's presence probably helped to buffer some of my mother's behavior with us some but on the other hand, a lot of it was enabled too. Rather than wonder about that "road not taken"- you being a stable person in this young man's life does mean a lot. Eventually though, it will be up to him to decide on his own steps to independence.

[Brokenmind]

Hey NotWendy

Firstly Im sorry if this brings anything up for you.

I have a mother with BPD and it seems cruel on her part to not allow her son to have contact with you. You are the only father he knows. While you feel badly about how this situation happened- she has her role in it too- her restrictions are not in his best interest.

But thats the problem NW, she has never acted in his best interest. She can talk all she wants about how much she loves him but her actions have always spoken otherwise. For me she behaved almost like an older sister who is forced to parent him and not his Mother. Begrudgingly doing the bare minimum then blaming everyone else for doing it poorly or for her outbursts.

If it's any consolation- your being there for him to speak to does mean a lot. We were not allowed to speak to anyone about my BPD mother's behavior to anyone- and this young man has you to speak to.

Im sorry to hear that you went through that and thank you for the kind words. He does have me but I feel guilty that he went through this with his Mum. 

You know he told me that growing up he felt loved by me alone and that he thought his Mum was a bad person but as I was not his real Dad he was terrified of losing me and being alone with just his Mum if we split up. The fact that this was my fear as well hence why i never left her despite all the abuse speaks volumes. He would constantly cling on to me in the morning before I go work, it was the few times of the day when she wasn't there as she was still asleep. I still weep thinking about that,

I don't think it's possible to predict if a child of a pwBPD will have a PD themselves. There is some genetic predispositon but it's not 100%. I don't have BPD. I think other consequences such as anxiety, behavior issues may be more prevalent but not necessarily so.

Im glad to hear that NW and its my hope for her son but unfortunately he does have some behaviours which are concerning which is not surprising considering what he has gone through.

My parents stayed together. I think my father's presence probably helped to buffer some of my mother's behavior with us some but on the other hand, a lot of it was enabled too. Rather than wonder about that "road not taken"- you being a stable person in this young man's life does mean a lot. Eventually though, it will be up to him to decide on his own steps to independence.

This is exactly my guilt right now, I feel like I enabled her to behave like she did to him. I know if she wasnt with me he would of been taken out of that abuse. The fact that I was stable, working had my own home the local council took no action. So in essence I provided a front for her and that makes me feel like I failed him.

You are right, the past is the past now and I can only try and help him. If he does well in his gcse exams next year then he will get to go College and then University. He is more than capable and is actually very intelligent. But he is I would say 2 years behind in terms of schooling, which kills me as he was top of the class always when we lived together and I made sure he stayed on top of his studies.

NotWendy, thank you for replying and sharing as well it really helps.

[Notwendy]

I think my father must have felt conflicted too. Staying may have diffused some situations, leaving, in their time, meant custody went to the mother. But staying enabled her too.

Your son will see this in different perspectives as he gains maturity. A teen can not comprehend all that goes into the dynamics of a relationship with someone with BPD- and also the disorder. He can only see it from his teen age point of view.

He will grow up and your relationship with him will be more as adult to adult. But you can still be a father to him.

My father is deceased now and my mother is elderly. I have wondered how is it that he could have enabled her behavior. Now, though, as her "next of kin" in her elder years and involved with her elder care, I understand the situation better. She is severely affected with BPD. It's difficult to see the extent of her emotional distress and yet, she is also emotionally and verbally abusive so there has to be boundaries. She responds to boundaries by feeling hurt or anger. It is difficult to say "no" to her. I can see why that was difficult for him.

But regardless of what my father did or didn't do- we are far better off because of him. In fact, I attribute the good in my childhood to him. Regardless of what you did or didn't "do right"- he has someone who parented him - who cares for him.

In a few years, your son will be able to make his own decisions about what kind of relationship he will have with his mother and with you. You can still be there for him as a father. All you can do now is the best you are legally able to do.

[ForeverDad]

When I wrote earlier that family court and various associated agencies do have discretion as to how vigorously they apply their rules and policies, note what happened when his mother reported his whereabouts.

They did send him back to wherever his mother wanted him... but they did not charge you with abduction or something similar.  They recognized that you had a decade-long family relationship and that moderated their handling of the matter.

So sometimes real life is not as "cut and dried" as the laws and procedure may state.  Determining whether there is a middle ground - and to what extent her ever-changing moods may impact it - is the challenge.

[EyesUp]

She already told him to get a job when he turns 16 but I don’t think that would help him. He is too far behind in his schooling.


There are a lot of different types of jobs and different types of schooling.  What do you think his mom envisions for him at 16?  Do you have a different view?  What about him?  Why is work dependent on schooling?  i.e., when I was 15, I swept a warehouse floor and unloaded trucks a few afternoons each week.  It was after school, but it would not have made a difference if I was home schooled or not.  Hanging out with a bunch of guys who were generally older was eye opening and helpful to me...  and had nothing to do with my education, past, present, or future.  I'm suggesting a path out of the house and toward self-sufficiency, not a master plan.  Does that make sense?

I already pay for him to go martial arts, and football. He already volunteers with me for a cancer charity but I’ve  offered to pay for private tutoring for him to catch up which she refused despite this being what he needs.


Are you still actively paying for these things at this point?  If so, how is this managed and coordinated with him, or his mom?  Given the various ways things may play out in next few years, it's probably a good idea to document everything you've done over the past ~10 years.

Hope the rest of your weekend was ok.

Hang in there.

[Notwendy]

I agree that a job can be good for teens. However, I question why she wants him to get a job. It is to supply her with money?

He also might benenefit from being evaluated for his school difficulties. He may not be able to concentrate on his studies if he's anxious. It's hard to do homework at home if his mother is yelling at him. It's also possible that he has a learning difference that is causing him the difficulty.

For someone who is behind in school- the academic demands of going straight to university after high school could be stressful and he may not have the foundation to keep up with studies. For him- if he has the option of staying with you once he reaches adulthood and catching up in school, working a job- experiences that will help prepare him for independence- that might be a an option to consider.

[Brokenmind]

Hi NW

He will grow up and your relationship with him will be more as adult to adult. But you can still be a father to him.

This is my hope. I just want the best for him. This is also what annoys me about my own family. They keep telling me I need to fade away as he is not my biological son. It annoys me as they dont seem to understand that from aged 3 I was not only his Father figure, but also the only other person in his life aside from his Mother who as you know has her issues. I understood my familys mentality on this.

My father is deceased now and my mother is elderly. She is severely affected with BPD. It's difficult to see the extent of her emotional distress and yet, she is also emotionally and verbally abusive so there has to be boundaries. She responds to boundaries by feeling hurt or anger. It is difficult to say "no" to her. I can see why that was difficult for him.

My condolences for your Father NW and this cant be easy for you dealing with your Mother on your own. With her son, he loses his temper with her at times and at other times just ignores her rages. He does have a complete lack of respect for her now.

NW can I ask as your Mother is older now, did the severity of her bpd change with age? My ex is 43 and her symptoms are still the same since I met her at at 31. According to her family she was a lot worse prior to that.

Did it get better to deal with in her 50s, 60s, 70s or just different challenges but just as difficult? Im interested as I would like to have an insight so I can advice her son.

But regardless of what my father did or didn't do- we are far better off because of him. In fact, I attribute the good in my childhood to him. Regardless of what you did or didn't "do right"- he has someone who parented him - who cares for him.

Im so glad you had your Father growing up. And Thank you for saying that. I think one of my biggest guilt was not doing more for him during the breakdown of the relationship 2 years ago to final break up 3 months ago. But even prior to that during the 10 years I feel guilty for the times she raged on me and I allowed it in front of him and kept compromising. For me thats the worse thing I did as I promised myself not to do that in front of a child as thats what I saw growing up.

My Father does have traits and was quite a cold and rageful person whereas my Mum was very loving and caring but codependent and enabled his behaviour. So it kills me to think that for her son I was my Mother and my ex was my Father in our relationship.

In a few years, your son will be able to make his own decisions about what kind of relationship he will have with his mother and with you. You can still be there for him as a father. All you can do now is the best you are legally able to do.

This is my hope, he already wants to move out when he turns 18 and from there he can move in with me or Ill support him moving out on his own. He said he would love to live with me. So thats 3 years time. I just wished my ex would let me have him now, especially as it would be in his best interest to do so.

Thanks NW, it really helped to see it from your perspective as a daughter.

 

[Brokenmind]

I agree that a job can be good for teens. However, I question why she wants him to get a job. It is to supply her with money?

I was thinking the same thing. She wants him to get a job I believe to allow her to save more money for her trips to America. Her partner does not pay for her trips. Prior to this her son wasnt even allowed to go the shops on his own due to her fears.

He also might benenefit from being evaluated for his school difficulties. He may not be able to concentrate on his studies if he's anxious. It's hard to do homework at home if his mother is yelling at him. It's also possible that he has a learning difference that is causing him the difficulty.

100% right NW, this was the reason I took over helping him with his schooling as she was not capable without getting emotional. I also suspected the same and for years argued with her to have him assessed. Finally aged 9 he was diagnosed with autism. But me and him got through it all so well, he was soon top of his class and he actually enjoyed doing homework with me (something that made my ex very jealous).

For him- if he has the option of staying with you once he reaches adulthood and catching up in school, working a job- experiences that will help prepare him for independence- that might be a an option to consider.

Agree but not the job she wants him to do, which is working in the local cafe. I would rather take him into my work for that where he can start with admin duties and communicating with clients. But he is adamant he wants to be an engineer so he needs to aim for university which is what he says he wants.

I want him to achieve that dream which is why im so concerned now ans unsure of how to help him. Especially given the fact that he told me only a few days ago that his Mother doesnt even know he is texting me.

[Brokenmind]

They did send him back to wherever his mother wanted him... but they did not charge you with abduction or something similar.  They recognized that you had a decade-long family relationship and that moderated their handling of the matter.

So sometimes real life is not as "cut and dried" as the laws and procedure may state.  Determining whether there is a middle ground - and to what extent her ever-changing moods may impact it - is the challenge.

Thanks FD, the police were actually really good with me. My ex does have a past history with her family and temper in general (screaming at school etc), so they were really sympathetic.

With her, she hated all her ex's with a passion and it seems im no different. So its an almost unsurmountable challenge,

[Brokenmind]

There are a lot of different types of jobs and different types of schooling.  What do you think his mom envisions for him at 16?  Do you have a different view?  What about him?  Why is work dependent on schooling? 

Thanks EU. No I do get see the value of working at a young age. I had a part time job as soon as I turned 16 and it helped a lot. His Mum wants him to start working part time at the cafe now and work full time after. She knows the owner. I def differ in this as I and also he wants to go University to persue his dream of becoming an engineer. If he wanted to work and not go Uni I would always support him but this is actually what he has wanted since he was 8.

Are you still actively paying for these things at this point?  If so, how is this managed and coordinated with him, or his mom? 

Its on direct debit so payment comes out directly to them. Its only been since Christmas where Ive had hardly any contact with her. so under 3 months.

I have my bank statements saved for over 20 years now (Im an accountant  ) but obviously does not include cash payments made directly to her.

[Notwendy]

It's great that he has the goal to be an engineer. Whatever time line that is, it may be at his own pace of maturity. There is more to university than classes. There's a social and emotonal aspect of university too.

Your son may need some time to emotionally and academically catch up before he is on his own in the university setting. In the situation he is in, he isn't able to fully concentrate on his studies and also just being a teen ager. See what he is ready for when he graduates high school.

Many teens start out in jobs in food service. I don't think it would be detrimental to him to have such a job, unless the hours are so long they impact his studies or the job socially overwhelms him.

[Brokenmind]

Thank you NotWendy. I just want to support him in anyway I can. What he does and at what pace is down to him and all I want to be is supportive to him in achieving that

A part time job is fine by me but that wasn’t her intention she just wants him to work and forget about studying completely once he turns 16. He and I don’t what that and he is capable of pursuing his dream which is what I want for him.

[EyesUp]

Its on direct debit so payment comes out directly to them. Its only been since Christmas where Ive had hardly any contact with her. so under 3 months.

I have my bank statements saved for over 20 years now (Im an accountant  ) but obviously does not include cash payments made directly to her.

If I understand correctly, you continue to pay and he continues to attend and participate, is that correct?

If true, then mom is certainly aware of your continued involvement... the classes don't magically pay for themselves.  I'd guess that as long as she allows this to continue, there is some implicit agreement/understanding that you are involved in his activities - which could be verified to authorities if it ever came to that.

Do you intend to support him financially through uni, assuming that he's accepted to a program at some point?

[Notwendy]

A part time job is fine by me but that wasn’t her intention she just wants him to work and forget about studying completely once he turns 16. He and I don’t what that and he is capable of pursuing his dream which is what I want for him.

That's sad- but you can only do what you are able to do- and if you can have him at 18- that may be his time to catch up.

Don't underestimate that you are acting as a parent to him, even if it's im small bits. If his mother isn't behaving like a parent- you are the one who can do this for him.

Extended family of my parents have told me they "wished they could have done more". Some of them didn't know the extent of what went on in our family until recently. What I have told them is that I appreciate what they did for me, even if it seems like a little to them- "parental" interactions with me are huge. Also, they would not have been able to do more- my parents would not have allowed that.

I don't have the "typical" parent- child bond with my BPD mother but I was attached to my father who did act like a parent to me but even though he stayed with my mother, there were limitations to how much he could do for us. I understand the kind of dynamics he was dealing with- he did the best he could with a difficult situation. Your son isn't able to understand this at his age. But your being in a father role to him as a child is huge and it doesn't stop at 18. He may not need you in the same way when he's grown, but he will always need a father and you are that father to him.

[Brokenmind]

Thanks NW

If i told you the full extent it may make you sadder. You see when I met my ex her son was just 3. She was completely  alone in that none of her own family spoke to her and if they did it was fraught with toxic behaviours. On his biological fathers side only his Nan saw him but only twice a year and not every year.

So he grew up with just me and her in his life and her son described it in his own words as almost like a Ying Yang relationship in that I was mostly good and his Mother mostly bad.

Thank you for sharing that NW, as it gives me hope that he does see how restrictive it was for me, especially when I had less of a say with his upbringing. She always had the final word in how he was raised, the home schooling being the main one when I really fell out with her for taking him out of school. 

[Notwendy]

If i told you the full extent it may make you sadder.

I believe you. I don't share publically all that I experienced as a child either. We were cared for in terms of clothing, shelter, education, health care. We were not physically abused or neglected in that manner and so didn't come to the attention of people outside the family.

There was good in my childhood and I attribute that to my father. Rather than see what he did for us as less- I think it made all the difference to us.

How a child responds to these situations varies- and some of it depends on the child's nature and resilience too. There's a lot of inconsistency with a BPD parent. Children need consistency and especially children on the spectrum as not having it increases their anxiety. I think your son probably has a lot to cope with. Having a stable adult in his life is a resilience factor too.

[livednlearned]

I may have missed this somewhere ... why does S15 need his mom's permission to contact you?

I'm wondering if you are over indexing on trying to appease her here ...

I understand the topography of these situations. You also have a code. But you're not initiating contact or trying to take him from his mom.

He's a kid who wants to stay in contact with the only dad he's ever known. He knows what his mom is like. He understands the repercussions.

Why not set ground rules that give him a lifeline while making it clear what he can and cannot do (your values, or legal issues if there are any).

[Brokenmind]

I think this is why it is so hard for him. I too had the same as you, although my Father was never emotionally available I at least had my Mother. I tried to change all that for both of them. I had my own home, was working in a well paid job and provided him with a structure and an adult who was there during the waking hours instead of asleep till 3pm everyday.

And this is my problem right now. She has not given permission for him to text me and doesn't know. How do I tell him I cant text back and that Im not willing to risk communicating with him.

I feel like it would break his heart but this puts me in a risky position if she were to find out. 

[livednlearned]

Do you want to get back together with her and being in contact with S15 could jeopardize that?

What is the risky position you're hoping to avoid?

[ForeverDad]

I spoke with the pediatrician when my son was about 2 years old, I saw what I felt could have been autistic manifestations. He was slow to talk (his first sentence was two words "mommy {feels} bad" after she had been on a tirade and left to the guest room, slamming the door).  Also, he avoided looking me in the eyes.  Pediatrician wasn't concerned but he did offer to give my spouse some names of counselors which she of course vehemently refused.

What can't be quantified is how much your ex's discord has impacted him.

My ex is 43 and her symptoms are still the same since I met her at at 31. According to her family she was a lot worse prior to that.

Did it get better to deal with in her 50s, 60s, 70s or just different challenges but just as difficult? I'm interested as I would like to have an insight so I can advise her son.

It has often been generalized BPD gets better (less bad) as the person ages.  Around here there's a bit of skepticism - is it just me? -about that.  Of course every person is different and BPD is a range of behavior patterns.

I wonder, might her family say it's not as bad as it once was because she was not in the middle of their lives as she was before?  BPD is a disorder most evident and most impactful in close relationships and if in later years there was greater distance then it could be that observers probably should conclude they didn't have as much exposure to her and her to them.

My ex-spouse was quite obstructive and sabotaging in the final couple years of our marriage and even more so during our separation, divorce and post-divorce.  *Custody* and control too were the big issues.  She had huge entitlement.  As our Custody Evaluator stated, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can."  Years later when I finally had majority time her entitlement balloon deflated a bit, enough so the order worked and we didn't return to family court.

Son grew up and aged out of the court system.  He lives with me and I have had much less contact with her once the custody issues were moot.  But is she better?  I really don't think so.  So far as I am aware she has always refused counseling or therapy.  But the animosity is pretty much gone, though lurking just below the surface for whenever I trigger her.

[Brokenmind]

Hi LL

Do you want to get back together with her and being in contact with S15 could jeopardize that?

What is the risky position you're hoping to avoid?

I can (with confidence) that I don’t want to be back with her. Absolutely not. I’m still processing the abuse and shame I feel and anger at what I gave up (mainly myself) for her.

The risky position is that she has already accused me of threatening her which her son saw the lie. If she found out I was communicating with S15 she would contact the police as she doesn’t want me communicating with him.

It’s all in texts, no phone calls, so it’s all in black and white  and he is the one who texts me mainly but I don’t want the hassle of having to explain myself.

[Brokenmind]

What can't be quantified is how much your ex's discord has impacted him.

I can see this has impacted him hugely but I’m not sure if it’s a case of mirroring her behaviours  or not. For example he doesn’t have any friends (not sure given he is home schooled) and has become obsessed with this girl he talking to online He showed a lot of black and white thinking.

It has often been generalized BPD gets better (less bad) as the person ages.  Around here there's a bit of skepticism - is it just me? -about that.  Of course every person is different and BPD is a range of behavior patterns.

I wonder, might her family say it's not as bad as it once was because she was not in the middle of their lives as she was before?  BPD is a disorder most evident and most impactful in close relationships and if in later years there was greater distance then it could be that observers probably should conclude they didn't have as much exposure to her and her to them.

This is what I thought and if I’m honest kind was ruminating a lot about at the start of the break up. Will she be better with someone else. Will someone else get her best side (idealisation) and none of the bad or not be abusive to her next partner.

From what I shave heard from her son, it’s a no. She is still the same rageful person but in his words, she doesn’t show this to her partner but only at home with him and everyone and everything else. She is obviously going through
The idealisation stage with him but does the same rages against him when talking about him to her son.

She did the same with me at the start and when I caught her cheating after 4 months it changed to her being needy and paranoid and jealous.

I think over the 12 years I was with her (she was 31 to 43) I  noticed no change other than when she split on me 7 years and started cheating again. She didn’t have that same fear of abandonment as she had prior to that and after we got back things were never the same again and it got even more toxic than ever.

But is she better?  I really don't think so.  So far as I am aware she has always refused counseling or therapy.  But the animosity is pretty much gone, though lurking just below the surface for whenever I trigger her.

I’m sorry to hear that FD. Mine attended therapy for short burst away falling out with her therapist even accusing one of flirting with her. She found a “child” therapist which suited her and it was this therapist that diagnosed her with BPD. She got annoyed and stopped going.

Do you mind if I ask how old your ex is? My hope is that her son will come to live with me, especially if it gets serious with her partner and moves country.

My fear is that I will always have her in my life through her son and she will always get triggered by me and I I’ll have her cloud over me.

But for her son I’m willing to do that. I know there is no going back and the thought triggers me alone. I just want what’s best for him. I willing participated in that relationship and I take ownership but her son never had a choice in this so I want to do what’s best for him.

[Notwendy]

I can see this has impacted him hugely but I’m not sure if it’s a case of mirroring her behaviours  or not. For example he doesn’t have any friends (not sure given he is home schooled) and has become obsessed with this girl he talking to online He showed a lot of black and white thinking.

This is what I thought and if I’m honest kind was ruminating a lot about at the start of the break up. Will she be better with someone else. Will someone else get her best side (idealisation) and none of the bad or not be abusive to her next partner.

From what I shave heard from her son, it’s a no. She is still the same rageful person but in his words, she doesn’t show this to her partner but only at home with him and everyone and everything else. She is obviously going through
The idealisation stage with him but does the same rages against him when talking about him to her son.

She did the same with me at the start and when I caught her cheating after 4 months it changed to her being needy and paranoid and jealous.

Do you mind if I ask how old your ex is? My hope is that her son will come to live with me, especially if it gets serious with her partner and moves country.

My fear is that I will always have her in my life through her son and she will always get triggered by me and I I’ll have her cloud over me.

But for her son I’m willing to do that. I know there is no going back and the thought triggers me alone. I just want what’s best for him. I willing participated in that relationship and I take ownership but her son never had a choice in this so I want to do what’s best for him.

First of all- no- nobody will get only the "best" of her. They may get the idealization stage for a while- but BPD affects all relationships- you see this with her son. She may be "triggered" by you but it's not all about you- it's that BPD affects the most intimate relationships more- partners and then immediate family. If someone else is in that position, they would "trigger" her.

In a different situation but similar idea- BPD mother blamed me for the issues between my parents when I was a teen. I believed that when I went off to college- they would be fine together. Like you imagine your ex would be better with someone else because she blames you. A younger sibling told me that wasn't true. The dynamics beween my parents didn't change.

It's hard to know which of your son's behaviors are related to being on the spectrum or being around his BPD mother, and possibly both. Being home schooled, he may not have made a lot of friends if his mother didn't involve him in group activities.

the other hand, social isolation, being fixated on someone or something, and black and white thinking could be due to being on the spectrum.

As to if he has BPD or not, I think that would be hard to say with all the other influences going on. Moody teen agers can have emotional mood swings too. Mirroring is possible. There are some behaviors I recognize as learned behaviors from growing up with a BPD mother and also from my father- I learned some of his co-dependent behaviors, but learned behaviors can be "un-learned". Children learn behaviors from their parents but you have been a positive role model- they learn positive behaviors too.

I hope he does live with you after high school. I think it would be good for him to have some stability, adult interaction, and if he needs it- some time to grow - socially and emotionally and catch up academically if needed. You can assess what he needs in terms of counseling, social interactions, and schooling/tutoring then.

[livednlearned]

If she found out I was communicating with S15 she would contact the police as she doesn’t want me communicating with him.

It’s all in texts, no phone calls, so it’s all in black and white  and he is the one who texts me mainly but I don’t want the hassle of having to explain myself.

You're allowed to pay for his classes but not text him?

[Brokenmind]

Hi NotWendy

Again thank you for the replies

 

If someone else is in that position, they would "trigger" her.

I have to admit I was thinking this soon after the break up. But I do feel I have come to that point where I’m indifferent to whether they work or not and unless she acknowledges and goes therapy it will happen again. But I finally got up the pint where to me it’s none of my business, only her son is.

In a different situation but similar idea- BPD mother blamed me for the issues between my parents when I was a teen.

I’m so sorry you went through that. For her son she was the same. I used to go ballistic when she would shout at him that he ruined her life, or her figure or even her breasts which was the most ridiculous one. She would then after wards or the next day smother him with love but also in an unhealthy way - lay in his bed hugging him for hours almost like he is a new born baby

 

Being home schooled, he may not have made a lot of friends if his mother didn't involve him in group activities.

The problem was even at school he found it difficult and would sometimes try and force others to be his friend which broke my heart when i was told by the school. He improved as the years went on and had 3 friends but would constantly fall out with them.

I hope he does live with you after high school. I think it would be good for him to have some stability, adult interaction, and if he needs it- some time to grow - socially and emotionally and catch up academically if needed. You can assess what he needs in terms of counseling, social interactions, and schooling/tutoring then.

I hope so too NW, I’m starting to get my life back together with my career and I know I can provide him with that stability and I love him so I will do all I can for him

Thank you so much for this it has really helped.

[Brokenmind]

Hi LL

You're allowed to pay for his classes but not text him?

Don’t get me started! 

So, up until December we were living apart but still together so I was paying for everything. I found out she cheated on December and since I sent her a text telling her I knew she was in America and seeing someone, she ghosted me since. So I’ve texted her that I only want to see her son and have a relationship with him and I’ve had absolutely no reply .

It was her son who texted me since  then. So I’ve not even had the courtesy of a reply on her son let alone a conversation about anything else.

[EyesUp]

You're allowed to pay for his classes but not text him?

I noted that, too.  It's similar to aspects of my experience:

My uBPDxw continued to use my credit card the day after we signed stipulations that explicitly prohibited it... Let's just say: When I raised the issue, the way she responded indicated that she didn't see a problem with violating the terms of the agreement that she had just signed.

Even today, my uBPDxw asks me to pay for birthday parties that she explicitly precludes me from attending.

Back to BMind, I have no idea how this would be viewed in the UK.  My sense is that he's already told us: In the absence of paternity or something that constitutes an agreement, he's in a precarious position.

Continuing to pay reinforces a sort of status-quo, and demonstrates a financial commitment (in the US, financial aspects of divorce and custody are given significant attention). This cuts both ways:  Paying may both enable BMind to remain engaged somehow, while also potentially establishing a liability to continue paying. Again, this speculation may be moot because there is no paternity and no agreement - only unilateral disagreement, in which mom holds all the cards...

BMind, please remind us:  Have you explored your legal options? Do you have a legal counselor who can advise you on the rights of non-paternal caregivers in the UK?  I imagine that you're not the first "dad" in a situation like this.

Either way, a lot of us can appreciate the emotional stress - on top of the PD dynamics in your situation.  Hope you're doing well this week...

[kells76]

So, up until December we were living apart but still together so I was paying for everything. I found out she cheated on December and since I sent her a text telling her I knew she was in America and seeing someone, she ghosted me since. So I’ve texted her that I only want to see her son and have a relationship with him and I’ve had absolutely no reply .

It was her son who texted me since  then. So I’ve not even had the courtesy of a reply on her son let alone a conversation about anything else.

I feel for you about the sense of precariousness -- that if you do "one thing wrong", though it isn't clear what, she'll "punish" you by withholding the kids.

That being said -- she may be preoccupied with her new relationship at the moment.

Has she ever explicitly communicated in writing "don't contact my son"?

Is part of your fear that if you're more assertive (more "decide and inform" versus "ask and wait"), for example if you just went ahead and watched SS15 at his activities/games/sports without asking her for permission, that she would... ____________?

[livednlearned]

How much brainstorming do you feel comfortable receiving from members here?

If you feel fear of repercussion, it can feel stressful to get advice that might be challenging given safety is a priority.

A lot of us have had to thread these needles and the devil is often in the details.

I also know how hard it can be to hear feedback when your nervous system is not at baseline, if that's happening for you.

It's tough to read about your situation. I have a son (now 22) and he was very precarious at 15. Every positive relationship mattered.

[ForeverDad]

About your teen... There was a phrase we used in years past, that children influenced by people with BPD (pwBPD) easily had BPD-like "fleas".  Um, as though infested by an outside force.  It isn't that they might have BPD, but that they've been around pwBPD.  Once he has the opportunity to separate portions of his life from his mother's influence, the concerning behaviors may fade.

To be clear, teens can have some PD-like behaviors but most out-grow them.  That's why minors are seldom diagnosed with BPD.  In your case, once your teen is older then the fleas may very well dissipate.

[Brokenmind]

Hey Everyone

Sorry its been a tough 4 days which is why I havent had a chance to get back to anyone

EyesUp

Im sorry first of all for your own situation.

BMind, please remind us:  Have you explored your legal options? Do you have a legal counselor who can advise you on the rights of non-paternal caregivers in the UK?

I have and in the UK unless the child is deemed to be in danger I essentially have no rights to see him despite me being the main caregiver all his life. If the courts decide he is unsafe with her then they will assess me as a suitable foster.

Either way, a lot of us can appreciate the emotional stress - on top of the PD dynamics in your situation.  Hope you're doing well this week...

Thanks EU, I really appreciate everyone here.

[Brokenmind]

Thanks Keells76

That being said -- she may be preoccupied with her new relationship at the moment.

And you are absolutely right. her son has been telling me that this is all she seems to care about and prioritises over him.

Has she ever explicitly communicated in writing "don't contact my son"?

No she hasnt never, not orally nor in writing. She has never responded to my texts, where im ashamed to say i was almost begging, to speak to him at all since i found out about the cheating.

Is part of your fear that if you're more assertive (more "decide and inform" versus "ask and wait"), for example if you just went ahead and watched SS15 at his activities/games/sports without asking her for permission, that she would... ____________?

I wish I could, Unfortunately she never leaves his side. This is the problem with her in the last 12 years. She smothers him because of her own fears and paranoia, almost like she had a fear of abandonment with her own child, so even at 15, she goes with him to the park when playing with friends almost like she wanted to be part of the group! I hated it but couldnt stop her doing it.

[Brokenmind]

How much brainstorming do you feel comfortable receiving from members here?

If you feel fear of repercussion, it can feel stressful to get advice that might be challenging given safety is a priority.

A lot of us have had to thread these needles and the devil is often in the details.

I also know how hard it can be to hear feedback when your nervous system is not at baseline, if that's happening for you.

It's tough to read about your situation. I have a son (now 22) and he was very precarious at 15. Every positive relationship mattered.

Im sorry to hear that you went through similar. Its just so hard. I dont mind the brainstorming at all and actually welcome it.

Oh yeap, my nervous system has been on fire for nearly 4 months now. I can see the physical toll let alone the emotional. Its effected everything but im still stepping forward so Im not out... yet.

[Brokenmind]

To be clear, teens can have some PD-like behaviors but most out-grow them.  That's why minors are seldom diagnosed with BPD.  In your case, once your teen is older then the fleas may very well dissipate.

Thanks FD

This is my hope. That once he moves away from her and has stability he will grow out of the behaviours he is showing. But even if not I think he does need therapy which I will provide for him. I just feel responsible for him as well as the fact I love him.

I feel responsible because I feel I emotionally abandoned him 2 years ago when the abuse got too much for me. Yes I provided financial support still but that simply enabled her to continue living the way she did.

I just want to do whats right for him to lead a happy life.

[livednlearned]

I dont mind the brainstorming at all and actually welcome it.

Does he know the reason is because you fear for your safety? In a way our kids grow up fast because of the bad behaviors they see. I'm wondering if it might be better for him to know why you're holding the line on contact, and why you can't communicate with him now. Because even if he's 18 and not under her guardianship, wouldn't the threat of what she'll do remain?

Or do you feel it will be different when he's legally an adult?

Trying to put myself in his shoes, and overlaying this on what my son was/is like -- he would feel cynical if people acted like he couldn't handle what was actually going on. It's one of the things I noticed about the positive adults in his life throughout his teens. They didn't pretend things were normal, they were age-appropriate about pointing out what he was already seeing and experiencing. For example, there was discussion about medication for depression and anxiety at a time his father still had joint legal custody. His psychiatrist helped manage expectations instead of saying, "I can't do this without your father's permission." It was more like, "Here's the situation. My opinion is that this would be really helpful for you. I'm also not able to prescribe this medication without consent from both parents. Your mom wants to do what's best for you. Your father has a history of fighting with people when he doesn't get his way. He doesn't tend to agree to things your mom does. We have to figure out a middle way. Fortunately, there's a lot we can do without the medications like a, b, c. When it becomes possible for your mom to make decisions, or when you become old enough, these other options open up to us."

It had the effect of opening up a portal to hope if that makes sense. Someone was talking straight to him without making it seem like doors were closing.

[Brokenmind]

Hi LL

For a 15 year old he is surprisingly very aware.

 He knows and understands what has happened. He understands that his Mother has mental health problems. He understands the abuse he and I both suffered. I know he feels abandoned by his Mother but says he is grateful he had me in his life (which made me cry after I got off the phone to him).

This is turn saddens me greatly because he has been forced to grow up  too quickly. The damage done to him is very evident in his behaviours not only to me but to his friends and yes you are right in that he gets annoyed when I try and shield him with him saying he is more than capable.

He is just so angry with his Mother right now. Only last night he is telling me how she hasn’t fed him since the afternoon (it was nearly 9.30pm when I spoke to him), she is seeing till late afternoon and all she does is prioritises time speaking to her partner in the US rather than dealing with him. It’s heart breaking.

He feels like she is just waiting for him ti turn into an adult before dumping him for the US. He even overheard her talking to he cousin about how she wished she never had him, can’t stand him and wished she was just free to do what she wanted. Imagine how he felt listening to that!!

I just can’t believe people like her exist.

Or do you feel it will be different when he's legally an adult?

No I don’t. My synopsis for the future I think is:

1) She will continue to  focus 100% on this new relationship as it’s her dream and way out and will wait till he is of legal age to leave him to live with her partner. Or if she convinces his Nan to look after him full time, leave earlier for the US

And

2) if that happens I may get to see him though his Nan or at 18 he comes to live with with me.

Or

3) This relationship ends in which case I actually fear for her own safety as this will destroy her as she put all her eggs I. This one basket. She lost me, she’s lost her son and her entire family have stopped talking to her. So losing this relationship will be catastrophic to her. I doubt she will try and charm me as she knows that won’t work with me anymore.

 

It had the effect of opening up a portal to hope if that makes sense. Someone was talking straight to him without making it seem like doors were closing.

This is what I’m trying to do. He texts me about the situation. I empathise with him without putting her down too much. But I also tell him straight about the situation. telling him no matter what, whether now are when his 18 or when his 30, 40 or whatever I will always be there for him have a home for him.. That I won’t ever leave him and will always always support him.

He knows this but it’s just heartbreaking that when I was 15 I knew my parents loved me and cared for me and the only stress I had was doing well at school and whether I’m popular or not. Whereas he is dealing with an abusive Mother who screams and shouts at him and has the emotional capability of a child who he thinks doesn’t even know how to love, whilst worrying about his future.

It’s not fair on him to have gone through this. I have sought advice now as to what I my legal options are and I have contacted the Gov to report the abuse.

I should have done this years ago instead of trying to fix it myself and providing a should for him whilst  losing myself in the process. I’m so ashamed of this. Why didn’t I tell myself: “She is abusive, I need to end this relationship and report it as not only he needs help but so does she”. I feel ashamed that I enabled her behaviour through me. The council would have taken him away from her years ago. I just feared that he would be in a worse position with foster carers instead of being placed in my care (especially after 4 years into the relationship) but I was wrong.

Looking back he was the only reason I stayed after 7 years together. I remember at that point I was done and losing him stopped me leaving.



I

[Notwendy]

I am glad you have reported this. It may be the best thing for him for her to move on to her new partner and let him be with you and his grandmother.

As an adult, your son will be able to make his own choices about how much contact he wants with his mother. It's possible she will go to the US but that relationship may be unstable too. She may go back and forth with contact with him but he can make his own choices.

I hope he can come to the understanding that what his mother says about him has nothing to do with him or who he is. What she's saying are her own projections of her own uncomfortable feelings. A difference is that your son has you to validate his perspective- to be the reality check for him and to recognize who he is, not the projections. He is loved and wanted by you and his grandmother.

[EyesUp]

@BMind,

It sounds like you're doing a remarkable job navigating this situation.

With everything that's happened, a huge amount of your energy has gone into recognizing and understanding your ex and her choices, and beginning to process the separation with your son and his situation with his mum/nan.

And it sounds like you're still engaged with him, albeit at some distance, and there is no explicit objection or order to cease communication - only a fear, really, of backlash to you or him from his mum.

If that's about right, then you likely have an opportunity to focus on yourself - as your X is in the US or at least incommunicado, and your son's moment to moment care is out of your control.

In order to get to the point where you're legally able to follow through on the plans you've shared - to assist with his education, etc., in the future - you may need to get your own affairs back on track.  You've previously mentioned letting everything take a back seat to your X.

How do you feel about this?  Have you given any thought to your work, career, and next steps you might take for yourself?

You'll be in a much stronger position down the road if you can work on recovery for yourself now - both emotionally and professionally/financially.

Worth considering:  Given that you're not officially expected to provide for your son, it's up to you to set clear expectations about what you are and are not willing to provide in the future.  A full ride?  Some basic assistance?  Even birth parents need to establish this sort of clear understanding with their kids re:  budget for school, etc.

When communicating a future commitment to your son, have you considered the details?

Also, a bit of a curveball (sorry for the Americanism) question:

Since we're talking about the medium- to long-term here, have you considered how your son might feel when/if you begin a new relationship at some point?

We often say "take care" as a courtesy - but this is really the time to actually do it.  What are you doing to take care of yourself at this point?

[Notwendy]

A couple of thoughts on this situation from my own experience. BPD mother would say similar things to me. She told me my parents wanted to send me away to a boarding school. I call BS now as I wonder if my father considered it to get me away from her not the other way around but I don't know.

I felt hurt at first but then I hoped they would send me to one of these schools. It sounded great.

But BPD mother didn't follow through and since Dad usually did what she wanted, they could have done it- but why didn't they?

So, considering what your son's mother says to him, you'd think she'd be happy to send him to live with you - but she doesn't- why is that? Maybe it's about you, but my parents stayed together so it wasn't about me going to live with my father. There's a push pull to these relationships. She doesn't want him to leave. He serves a purpose for her.

I assumed my parents would be happier once I went to college but a younger sibling told me it didn't happen and in some ways it was worse since I guess the dynamics changed?

I agree with having the talk about paying for college. This is a discussion all parents have. It's OK to share the responsibility with a child if that is best for the family. I can't say for sure but considering what your son has gone through, a gap year while he works and takes some catch up classes before university might be a best plan for him.

Also the idea of self care- your son needs you to be at your best. It will also set an example for him. While you feel badly that you left- you also have the opportunity to not be his mother's emotional caretaker. If you have a stable caring partner - that is one more stable person in your son's world.

We don't stop needing a parent when we are adults. Our needs change but emotionally a parent is a key person for us.  As an adult I don't need someone to "mother" me. It's more of a quality- someone who acts supportive and caring in a motherly way. I hope if you do look for a partner one day that she also will act in a caring way towards your son. He's not her child but if she cares about you, you care about him and he is important to you. That is part of the package.

[livednlearned]

There's a push pull to these relationships. She doesn't want him to leave. He serves a purpose for her.

BPD people in my life are very sensitive to being a third wheel, or feeling like they're on the outside. It doesn't matter if they created that position for themselves, or if it's imagined, all that matters is making sure that they have a way to attain "insider" status if necessary.

Meaning, your ex perceives you and S15 are close, which makes your ex the outsider, and that's not tolerable for her. She's consumed with her US guy for the moment so there's a distraction but any fluctuations in that relationship will need to be smoothed out by S15. She will need to be able to summon him at will, for whatever fleeting purpose.

It's saying the same thing Notwendy said above and what others have observed, including you, but understanding it in terms of the triangle concept from Family Systems Theory can really help see what's driving these needs. The triangle concept really helped me make sense of what was driving my stepdaughter's (uBPD) behaviors even when we weren't in a full blown Karpman drama triangle.  

For example, if my H was in the same room, the triangle was intense. SD26 had to establish insider status with H. If H was on a trip, the triangle was weaker. SD26 wanted my time and attention.

Except one time H was on a trip with my oldest stepdaughter. From the triangle perspective, SD26 found herself vying for insider status (from afar) to break up the closeness her sister and H were having. To do that she texted H that I didn't want her in the house.

H asked me to please fix whatever happened. The triangle became a Karpman drama triangle where I was the perpetrator, SD26 was the victim, and H was the rescuer. In retrospect, I think SD26's sister was the actual target and working their triangle (SD29 --> H --> SD26) activated the triangle with me (LnL --> H--> SD26).

I think it's instinctive and not necessarily a well-differentiated thought process but it doesn't make it any easier to manage.

With S15, the key seems to be giving him hope and supporting him discreetly without shining light on your closeness.

However, even when he's 18 your ex will likely experience the instinctive need for closeness regardless of how she treats S15 or whether she even wants to be around him.

So many times SD26 would text a crisis while H and I were trying to have 90 minutes to ourselves at dinner. We would come home and the crisis would evaporate.

All that was necessary for SD26 was knowing she could get H to re-establish insider status. That was the whole point of the exercise  

[Brokenmind]

Hi NW

Sorry I havent replied for a few days and thank you for the reply.

I am glad you have reported this. It may be the best thing for him for her to move on to her new partner and let him be with you and his grandmother.

It took a lot but I have to think about his well being and I think I made the right decision.

I hope he can come to the understanding that what his mother says about him has nothing to do with him or who he is. What she's saying are her own projections of her own uncomfortable feelings. A difference is that your son has you to validate his perspective- to be the reality check for him and to recognize who he is, not the projections. He is loved and wanted by you and his grandmother.

Thank you NW, this is pretty much what I used to say to him from a young age till now. After the break up and untill very recently Ive felt that saying that was enabling her. Thank you for putting it into perspective for me as I never thought by saying that what she is saying is her and not about him also helped him not become her projections. I never thought of it this way.

[Notwendy]

I am glad it helped. I didn't understand this at your son's age. It affected my self esteem. As I mentioned - I believed my parents would be happier once I left for college since BPD mother blamed me for the issues at home. It was a younger sibling who clarified that this wasn't the case.

When we grow up with a disordered parent, we don't have an example of "normal". Parents should not say these things to a child but we don't know that yet. Your son has a different example of parenting from you, and you can affirm that he is loved and valued.

[Brokenmind]

Hey EU

Thank you for the replies

It sounds like you're doing a remarkable job navigating this situation.

Thanks EU, but I feel like I'm stumbling in the dark. There always seems to be a curveball thrown each day. I'll explain in the next post.

How do you feel about this?  Have you given any thought to your work, career, and next steps you might take for yourself?

You'll be in a much stronger position down the road if you can work on recovery for yourself now - both emotionally and professionally/financially.

In terms of this, since I've had contact with her son its has galvanised me in this respect. Call it what you will (Codedependant trait perhaps) but the since contact and him telling me he loves me and wishes he was with me its made come in leaps and bounds.

So I got a new job, back in the city (hence why Im finding it hard to reply daily) and its quite good money and Im a low maintenance kinda guy which means Im saving a lot; so professionally and financially I'm in a much better position and only getting stronger.

Emotionally; Im a lot stronger than I was and it too feels like its getting easier. I still suffer from moments of depression but Ive accepted my situation and with therapy, research and this forum I understand myself a lot better too. Again yesterday threw a small spanner but Ill explain in my later post.

Worth considering:  Given that you're not officially expected to provide for your son, it's up to you to set clear expectations about what you are and are not willing to provide in the future.  A full ride?  Some basic assistance?  Even birth parents need to establish this sort of clear understanding with their kids re:  budget for school, etc.
When communicating a future commitment to your son, have you considered the details?

For me EU Ive never had my own children, so maybe I dont know the difference but I've raised her son since aged 3, I instantly and never stopped loving him like my own. I was also raised in a family where until your secure you can live at home as long as you want. So for someone I consider my son, its a full ride. But its a bit different in London. We don't pay for education until University stage in which I would gladly pay for. I want him to grow into a fully independent man.

On a personal note I do fear the fact that his Mother will always be in my life to some degree but Ive considered this and again my first thoughts are: Im an adult and her son is a child. I went into her toxicity willingly aged 34 he was born into it and I'm the only Father he knew. I feel my responsibility is towards him.

Since we're talking about the medium- to long-term here, have you considered how your son might feel when/if you begin a new relationship at some point?

We often say "take care" as a courtesy - but this is really the time to actually do it.  What are you doing to take care of yourself at this point?

Ive actually discussed with him on this and he hopes I meet someone that treats me nice.

Thanks EU really thanks, with self care I've been doing better each week. I feel more sure of myself and although I havent captured the self I had before I met her I see glimmers of it and I think aged 46 starting to realise that self care doesnt mean I have to feel like I'm being selfish.

[ForeverDad]

Some parents have found alternative to encounters with the ex.  One is to ensure the holidays are separated.  That is, when he's closer to emancipation or becomes an adult, he can spend a holiday with whichever parent he chooses (co-parenting schedules usually alternate holidays as a default) then he can pick another day for the other parent.  That too would reduce the risk of awkward or triggering contact.

Yes, not practical for all events but it allows him some flexibility not to feel locked in to specific dates.

[Brokenmind]

Hi All

Firstly apologies for the lack of replies.

Its been a very trying time for me this last 10 days which I wont go into on here and will explain later.

Ill firstly respond to everyone's posts:

I didn't understand this at your son's age. It affected my self esteem. As I mentioned - I believed my parents would be happier once I left for college since BPD mother blamed me for the issues at home. It was a younger sibling who clarified that this wasn't the case.

Your son has a different example of parenting from you, and you can affirm that he is loved and valued. 

Im sorry you went through this NW, can I ask how your situation is now? Better?

That is my hope, that me being there from aged 3 gave him that he felt loved and valued. I hope to stay there for him but I have come to the realisation that I also need to take better care of myself as the way Im going Im heading for burnout again.

My problems right now are:

Deep depression. Im secretly breaking down each day in tears.

I fear for his future and what he is showing in his behaviours which seem to increasingly mirror hers. I feel responsible for him almost like its my fault I didnt deal with her better for him during the 12 years. I keep thinking about the arguments we had in front of him and how it effected him.

Im still dealing with the heartbreak, anger and sadness of the breakup. I feel like I was abused for 12 years and destroyed my own identify and all for love. I obviously dont want her back but I feel like I gave up on all aspects of my life for her.
#My relationship ended and I was cut off from him.
#My relationship with my family changed over 12 years because she raged at them and I always sided with her,
#I lost all friends over 12 years for the same reason.
#My career went sideways and is still not where it should of been.
# my personality has become too people pleasing. I seem to do this more and more. I went on dates and I found myself in a relationship where I went all out to please her like I did with my ex.

I just feel so broken




 

[Brokenmind]

Hi FD

Some parents have found alternative to encounters with the ex.  One is to ensure the holidays are separated.  That is, when he's closer to emancipation or becomes an adult, he can spend a holiday with whichever parent he chooses (co-parenting schedules usually alternate holidays as a default) then he can pick another day for the other parent.  That too would reduce the risk of awkward or triggering contact.

This is the issue FD. His Mum does not know im in contact with her son, and in her sons words "really hates me". So I have no contact with her whatsoever and puts me in a risky position as he is only 15 and im just an ex who is contacting him without her permission. At first and until recently he lied to me and said she gave permission so since then I told him I cant  just text him when i want and he has to contact me first so its me responding to him.

My plan and hope is we keep contact until she allows him to or when he reaches 18 where he can do what he likes.

in the meantime I need to sort myself out. As I feel like im going back into deep depression again.

It just feels like im swimming in everything she damaged and will do so for a long time.

My son. When the relationship ended I lost contact with him. Yes Im in contact with him now but I havent seen him since December. I just miss him so much

My career was damaged badly. Im getting back on track and earning a decent salary now but probably half of where I should be at my age and I feel like a failure.

My family ties Im trying to mend but its hard as so many bridges where burned by me during the relationship

Friends are not existent and aside from work colleagues I dont have a social network,

Physically Ive lost so much weight and just feel old and ugly.

Ive tried dating again. First was a women who I think just used me for a free meal and the second is a psychologist who for the last month Ive been dating is showing red flags and Im not ending it even though I know I should! (I will discuss this in the other forum)

I just started feeling like I'm in this dark place with no way out again. I just feel like she shattered my life and Im scared of collapsing and then what good am I to anyone including her son?

[Notwendy]

Im sorry you went through this NW, can I ask how your situation is now? Better?

That is my hope, that me being there from aged 3 gave him that he felt loved and valued. I hope to stay there for him but I have come to the realisation that I also need to take better care of myself as the way Im going Im heading for burnout again.

My problems right now are:

Deep depression. Im secretly breaking down each day in tears.

I fear for his future and what he is showing in his behaviours which seem to increasingly mirror hers. I feel responsible for him almost like its my fault I didnt deal with her better for him during the 12 years. I keep thinking about the arguments we had in front of him and how it effected him.

Im still dealing with the heartbreak, anger and sadness of the breakup. I feel like I was abused for 12 years and destroyed my own identify and all for love. I obviously dont want her back but I feel like I gave up on all aspects of my life for her.
I just feel so broken

Yes, I can say things are better- I grew up, left home, and what my parents say to me does not define who I am.

From the perspective of an adult- although you are concerned for your son, you need to take care of yourself- both for you and for him. You can only "be there" for him to the extent that you can "be there" for you. They say on an airplane to put your oxygen mask on first- before helping someone else. There's a reason for that. If you are emotionally drained, there's not much left for anyone else.

I did wonder why my father "gave in" so much to my mother. Why didn't he stand up for us kids more? The answer was- he was emotionally  drained. It is very difficult to say no to my mother and to deal with her behaviors. If someone is emotionally worn out, there isn't the stamina to hold a boundary.

But here is the other side of this situation- the role model we had was to comply with my mother and not say no to her. I didn't know how to do otherwise. I could learn it later. Kids learn by seeing our behavior. You are a role model for your son. So I will say this- truly- the best thing you can do for your son is to take care of you. You need to be at your best for him and also- you will role model self care and emotional recovery for him.

One aspect of depression is to ruminate on something that bothers us. While you are concerned for your son- it may be that at the moment, you are doing all you can do for him- the best you can do in your situation.

Consider also there are limitations to how much you can ensure the outcome for your son. I think it's possible to mitigate the impact of a disordered parent but I don't think it's possible to undo all of it. Some things are not under your control. Genetics, the child's own resilience, personality and the presence of other disorders- like being on the spectrum. He will likely have his own emotional work to do. Consider that your efforts have done a lot of good for him, to the extent possible.

I hope you can turn some attention to your own self care- through counseling, get help for depression. You will then be in a much better emotional place and far more able to be of help to your son.

[SaltyDawg]

Broken,

   I hear you.  After what you have been through it is very easy to fall into a depression.

   I find using healthy coping mechanisms to be very helpful such as exercise, getting lost in a good book/movie/series, nice long hot showers, and other distractions to stave off depression and feeling down.

   I know you have a therapist, seek their advice and if this T isn't working out for you, it is okay to find another that you 'click' better with.

   Given the circumstances, I think you are doing a great job with your son.  Even though this is easier said than done, try not to let your stress/depression show in your return texts to him as he needs all the emotional support he can get.

   Like you, my social network was decimated by putting all of my effort into appeasing my pwBPD, I've backed off on my appeasing, and I am slowly making new friends in my mid 50's while avoiding those with obvious 'issues'.  This has made it very difficult to find additional support outside of therapy for me, so I seek out 'safe places' like BPD Family.

   Circling back to your son, I know my son does 'monkey see, monkey do' when it comes to behaviors that both my wife does, and myself - so my Ts and I feel that it is very important to model good behaviors as he will takes those into his own life as he becomes an adult.

   Take care, with self care as it will get better.

SD

Hi FD

This is the issue FD. His Mum does not know im in contact with her son, and in her sons words "really hates me". So I have no contact with her whatsoever and puts me in a risky position as he is only 15 and im just an ex who is contacting him without her permission. At first and until recently he lied to me and said she gave permission so since then I told him I cant  just text him when i want and he has to contact me first so its me responding to him.

My plan and hope is we keep contact until she allows him to or when he reaches 18 where he can do what he likes.

in the meantime I need to sort myself out. As I feel like im going back into deep depression again.

It just feels like im swimming in everything she damaged and will do so for a long time.

My son. When the relationship ended I lost contact with him. Yes Im in contact with him now but I havent seen him since December. I just miss him so much

My career was damaged badly. Im getting back on track and earning a decent salary now but probably half of where I should be at my age and I feel like a failure.

My family ties Im trying to mend but its hard as so many bridges where burned by me during the relationship

Friends are not existent and aside from work colleagues I dont have a social network,

Physically Ive lost so much weight and just feel old and ugly.

Ive tried dating again. First was a women who I think just used me for a free meal and the second is a psychologist who for the last month Ive been dating is showing red flags and Im not ending it even though I know I should! (I will discuss this in the other forum)

I just started feeling like I'm in this dark place with no way out again. I just feel like she shattered my life and Im scared of collapsing and then what good am I to anyone including her son?

[ForeverDad]

My problems right now are:

Deep depression. I'm secretly breaking down each day in tears.

We all need help sometimes.  You could benefit from more than remote peer support.  Ponder your local options.  Try finding a counselor, or mens groups.  Associate with your friends.

I went on dates and I found myself in a relationship where I went all out to please her like I did with my ex.

No, now is not the time for dates.  You're too likely to still be absorbed with the ended relationships.  You don't want a 'rebound' relationship.  Those are built on the wrong foundation.  You need to be relatively stable and composed first.  Recovery takes time, it's not an event or quick decision.

[livednlearned]

The weeping daily thing is rough.  

My therapist encouraged me to lean into the pain which seemed insane at the time. Apparently one of the best ways to get over it is to go through it. Many of us end up in codependent relationships because focusing on the behaviors of others keeps us from feeling our own pain. That pain feels unbelievably heavy but kind of like exposure therapy there comes a moment when it's almost a relief. I can't believe I'm saying this but I sometimes miss how raw things felt. After being numb during much of my life I was unprepared for flooding emotions. My T also said the phrase pain x resistance = suffering. Let yourself cry. There might even be some relief there.

Also, 12 years is a long relationship. It wouldn't surprise people here if it takes you roughly 2 years to get back to something even better than what you had before the relationship. I was married 10 years and it took 22 months to heal. If you told me a few months into post-divorce that I would meet and marry my current husband, a lovely kind thoughtful generous funny smart man with shared values (and a BPDx of his own), I would've never believed you. In the early days after my divorce I would weep silently while walking my dog, unable to place exactly what the sadness linked to other than feeling like I was a giant nothingburger.

You get to be a mess right now. It would be weird if you didn't need some time to sort things out and regroup. Cry it out if you need to. Those feelings want to see the light of day so they can dissipate and lighten your soul.