How do you respond to being called a narcissist?

[SendingKindness]

My uBPD daughter repeatedly claims I am a narcissist. It seems to be the fad these days - it seems everyone is a narcissist now. From what I understand, she participates in online discussions about this and it is part of her blaming me for everything wrong in her life. She twists all kinds of things to fit me into this description.

This can be so distressing to deal with and has me questioning myself, even though I know I have been a very loving mom who tried my best to give my daughter all I could when she was growing up (and continuing to this day!). I even asked my therapist about this and she has confirmed I am definitely not a narcissist (I mean, I was beginning to actually wonder after all the accusations!).

Today, my daughter sent me a link to a book called 'Narcissistic Mothers - How to Handle a Narcissistic Parent and Recover from CPTSD'. Her message says 'this is a book for you to please listen to. It is not a funny joke. I am asking. It is serious. Please listen to this book and when you are done let me know. From there I will do some work on the printed version to show you some things.'

I am trying to see this positively rather than do a knee-jerk reaction of being offended - as a way that she is trying to reach out and connect with me (there have been periods of estrangement), but it is also pretty hurtful to be on the receiving end this kind of characterization. My first reaction was to wonder if I should ask her to read a book about BPD in exchange (LOL), but that's probably not the right approach - I've also read not to actually suggest that you suspect this diagnosis to people with BPD.

Any suggestions about how to deal with this in a positive and productive way? How would you respond to her message in a compassionate and thoughtful way?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[EyesUp]

Hello.

It's not easy, but taken at face value:  Your daughter is trying to make sense of things, and apparently hoping to improve your relationship.  That's the good news.

Does your D have a formal diagnosis?

Either way, one of the patterns we see is that "accusations are confessions" and very often the things a disordered person will express to us are projections of something they are perceiving in an other area in their life. 

Try to keep in mind that anyone with healthy self-esteem may appear to be narcissistic to someone struggling with identity or their own sense of self.  Anything the slightest bit self-referential can be weaponized by someone who is insecure and unable to distinguish between a fair comment ("I really like that song!" <- perceived as you're only interested in your own taste in music) vs. malignant narcissism.

Since she's opened the door to a sort of dialog, I'd read or listen to glean some understanding of whatever frame she's applying to you.  I'd encourage you to be as non-reactive or passively accepting/supportive as possible.  Challenging her or redirecting back to her is likely to be perceived as an attack.   This is going to be a mostly one-way process, but you will likely gain insights along the way.

It's not easy, it's not fun, and it's unclear if either of you will benefit from this - but it is a possible step toward to demonstrating to your D that you love her, that you'll listen (to anything!), that you're safe.

Others may have a different view - I hope you get more input here. Ultimately, you need to work through this in a way that feels fair for both of you.  I hope that makes sense?

Good luck!

[SendingKindness]

Thank you very much, EyesUp!

This is just the type of feedback I was hoping for and very helpful. The points you make really resonate with me.

Thank you again!

[Pook075]

It's kind of funny, we all try our best to prepare for these situations dealing with a BPD loved one.  I've been on this site for almost two years now and learned all kinds of approaches and techniques to improve communication.  Yet when my BPD ex-wife called me a narcissist two weeks ago, the first thing out of my mouth was, "I'm not a narcissist, you're a narcissist!"

Oops.

As EyesUp shared though, it opened the door to a conversation where my wife quickly shifted to, "Well, you were a narcissist."  So I asked her to explain why, and she had a big list of generic statements (You always this, you never that....).  But when I'd ask for specifics, one instance where I did one of those things, she'd say that she couldn't think of one.

Then I shifted the conversation a little bit and asked, "You just said I've always hated your parents.  You can't think of one time I showed your parents love?"  And she quickly backtracked again by saying, "I know you love my parents."  So I followed up with, "Why'd you say 'always' then?  You say that a lot and it confuses me."

Hint- those with BPD/NPD love black and white, everything is an absolute even when there's clear evidence otherwise.

My goal here wasn't to make my ex-wife realize that she was the narcissist because that's futile.  I'm not going to cure her because I'm clearly not qualified.  But if I could change the language and make her realize that many of the statements she's claiming as absolutes are untrue, then we have room to change the direction of the conversation.

To my BPD daughter (yes, I hit the jackpot with a BPD wife and a BPD kid), I was satan while she was growing up.  And yes, I did yell quite a bit since that's the only thing she genuinely responded to in her late teen years.  I also stood very firm on boundaries and mom didn't, which created tons of turmoil in the home.  But it did eventually pay off and my BPD kid figured some things out.

My advice would be to stand firm on your boundaries and ignore the name calling.  But at the same time, if we're talking about narcissism, then we're taking a step towards the root of the problem.  Maybe don't do what I did with my wife at first, LOL, but it can't hurt to talk it out and see where the conversation goes. 

I do think you should listen to the eBook, take some notes, and then have that conversation.  Only good can come of it, especially if you could suggest group therapy to work on it together.  It's possible that your kid trying to "fix you" can have some realization of her own.

How old is she, by the way?  Mine was a terror until about 22ish.  It started becoming a problem around 14 and quickly ramped up, pretty much doubling in chaos each year.  At 22 she finally took therapy seriously and began to make changes in her own life.

[once removed]

yes, today, everyone you (general "you") are in conflict with is a narcissist. or a sociopath. or a narcissistic sociopath. no one is safe  

and online forums are available everywhere for full validation of your side of the conflict.

frustrating, for sure, when youre trying to repair a relationship. ultimately, probably not anything that will necessarily threaten/damage your relationship.

it is, on some level, a support system for her. better to work in harmony with that (within reason), than fighting against it.

I am trying to see this positively rather than do a knee-jerk reaction of being offended - as a way that she is trying to reach out and connect with me

thats a really helpful way to look at it. if you do a knee-jerk reaction of being offended, it shuts her out, and she is likely to say it louder (and be validated by the forum). at the end of the day, youre right; shes trying to be heard, and shes trying to connect.

think of it a little bit like a romantic partner trying to get you to take a relationship quiz together, or to read a book together. i once saw someone take offense to the suggestion; they felt that their relationship skills, and their relationship, were being called into question. defensiveness just shuts things down. and to the other person, it proves their point.

be open minded. listen. particularly, try to focus on what shes communicating as it applies to your relationship and how she expresses that it affects her, eg less "mom you obviously have this and this trait and thats why youre a narcissist", more "mom, this is how _____ affects me/us".

i agree with the others. read the book. i do want to caution you a bit: i took a look at the book, and the author, and it looks like junk psychology written by a life coach; "victim literature" (i wouldnt say that to your daughter). i mention that to say its not likely to help you gain any real knowledge about narcissism, but a useful exercise in empathy and bridge building.

[SendingKindness]

Thanks also to Pook075 and once removed. I really appreciate your words of sage advice. I am going to thank her for sending me the link and listen to it and follow up on some of your suggestions. I think I am at least making some progress on my own side of things, as a year ago I would have found her suggestion quite triggering and probably would have reacted more along the lines of 'I'm not a narcissist, your a narcissist!', that once removed mentioned.

Just a note in response to questions - she is not diagnosed formally (refuses to consider that anything is wrong) and I am hesitant to do armchair diagnosis myself. But a lot of the BPD traits I am reading about are so spot on and I find a lot of the advice for BPD family members is helpful in improving my relationship with her. She is 39.

[once removed]

The skills here will help you with anyone. I don't currently have anyone with bpd in my life, and I use them all the time. Practice them to the point that they're natural, personalized, sincere; "using techniques" on someone won't work with anyone. Relationship skills help everyone.

Diagnosis is a complicated thing! The difference between "bpd traits" and "bpd" is the severity of mental illness, not the difficulty of the person. Just a splash of bpd traits can make for a difficult person everywhere they go, while a given person with bpd might be less so, for any number of reasons. Someone can present with any number of traits, and be below the threshold.

Practically, for family members, theres no difference. Practically, for the skills, there's no difference except the context of your own unique relationship.

This should help explain: https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-borderline-personality-disorder

[Sancho]

Hi SendingKindness
I think this is really, really tricky. I do understand that engaging can be a way to go, but isn't it just going to just make sure that she is being affirmed for the distortions in her own mind? It could lead to that hole just getting deeper and deeper - and further away from her recognising any personal problems.

Also I notice that you are affected by all this. If you go along with it all are you then agreeing with her that you are a narcissist? I would anticipate that further engagement will be all about how you get help, how you can change, how your problem is the cause of all her problems etc.

I think it needs a lot of deep thought and trying to find a way to validate that this is HER perspective etc etc. I also think it is not surprising that this is happening because dd is under lots of pressure and therefore looking for a target of blame for her really difficult situation.

I am not sure how I would deal with it to be honest. I just tried to think of the consequences of engaging with dd and all sorts of problems popped up in my head - ones that might mean things are more complicated in the future by taking this path.

Just wondering as I write . . . I wonder if reading the information but moving past that to saying that it's interesting and you would like to read up on other similar disorders? Perhaps try to push the information gathering and discussion to broader topics and asking dd what the treatments are for the various options?

Haven't completely thought is through . . . .

[SendingKindness]

Thanks Sancho. Also a very interesting perspective and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I also wrestle with this.

She has made up so much crazy stuff about me, and the more stressed she gets, the crazier the accusations become. A few months ago she kept saying that I had whipped her everyday from the age of 3 (for example), or that I had locked her in a shed and said I would burn it down if she told anyone. I just don't even know what to think of these things - they are so awful and I don't understand if she really believes these things when she is saying them, or if these were bad dreams, or what really. It is so distressing to think she might actually believe these things about her childhood! How sad could that be for her? She was such a happy little girl growing up, I don't understand why she seems to have lost all those memories and seems to have replaced them with such sad and distressing ones.

She continually claims that I am in denial about these things, that I won't believe her, refuse to 'do the work', or take any responsibility for having done all these things to her. She really only started making all these claims about 3 years ago (after starting therapy), and no one had ever heard such claims from her before that. Before that, we had a good relationship, mostly very normal - lots of back and forth texting about life, and we often travelled together. A bit tense at times - I realize looking back that I was walking on eggshells even then, as she had a bit of a temper and I tried not to set her off. But before 3 year ago, she was nothing like this!

I am hoping that by being open to this book, it might someone turn into a deeper conversation. I think she knows in her heart of heart that things are not right with her, and is so afraid to go there. I'm not sure I will be skilful enough to have that kind of a conversation with her, but I think it's worth a try. At this point, she adamantly refuses to get any professional help and so its hard to know how else to try to help her.

Anyway, I really appreciate your caution. I'll probably be back here looking for more advice, as this evolves!

[once removed]

Sancho brings up a very important point.

how do you stay away from validating the invalid, while validating the valid?

after all, if your daughter says that youre a purple dinosaur, and youre a human being (or even if you think you could be a purple dinosaur, but you arent sure), it wouldnt make much sense to say "dear daughter, i apologize for being a purple dinosaur. i dont mean to be, but im afraid i was born this way. i will try not to be a purple dinosaur."

in the same way, it wouldnt make much sense to tell her "im sorry for all the hurt i caused when i whipped you and locked you in a shed. that was wrong of me".

We all know how to validate someone with whom we agree. However, where validation skills are most valuable is in dealing with situations where we disagree or are in conflict with someone.

In these situations, it can be difficult to find something to validate while remaining true and authentic to ourselves. It can be even more difficult to find the motivation to counter our own emotional instincts and our proclivity to reject, ignore, or judge.

For these reasons, validation is never about lying, it is not about being ruled by the emotions of others, and it is not letting people "walk all over us". We never want to validate the “invalid”.

Validating someone's thoughts, feelings, or beliefs does not necessarily mean we agree, overall, with what they are thinking, or feeling, or with their behavior.

learning to be more validating, and less invalidating is a delicate balance, especially where there are minefields.

people with bpd traits tend to need an extra dose of the former, to compensate for the latter. overdo it, though, and you can push things into unhealthy territory.

To validate someone's feelings is first to accept someone's feelings - and then to understand them - and finally to nurture them. To validate is to acknowledge and accept a person. Invalidation, on the other hand, is to reject, ignore, or judge.
...
Validation, on the other hand, is not mindless submission to another person. "Yes dear, thank you for pointing out that I am wrong again, it's so wonderful to know you will correct me in front of others". We never need to validate the "invalid". Validation is not about weakness and submission. Nobody respects that.

there is probably not a great deal that is valid in the book itself (junk psychology). were your daughter here posting "i want my mom to read this book, how do i get her to", as someone on the outside of the conflict, i would probably try to steer her to something more helpful and more grounded. on the other hand, if you do that out of the gate, youre shutting her down. and youre proving her point.

Finding The Validation Target

An ideal target is one that is close to the other person's emotional epicenter.  It could be as simple as validating how the other person feels.  It could be mirroring back the other person's rationale of how they are seeing things and why they feel the way the way they do. It could be picking up on secondary elements that they're experiencing which are true, and confirming that.  

so if the book isnt valid, and both you and your therapist believe the charges arent, whats valid in all of this? how do you do that?  

'this is a book for you to please listen to. I am asking. Please listen to this book

set aside the accusations and the book for a moment. what your daughter is really asking is for you to listen. to listen is not to agree. it is to set aside defensiveness and to hear her.

what shes communicating as it applies to your relationship and how she expresses that it affects her, eg less "mom you obviously have this and this trait and thats why youre a narcissist and this book says im right", more "mom, this is how _____ affects me/us".

the book itself is going to go a pretty long way toward validating the invalid (her sense of victimhood). but your daughter is (or already has) going to absorb this book. not much you or we can do about that.

what you can do is to present (and be) open minded and to listen. listening is disarming. it builds bridges. it makes room for healthier, less charged dialogue. actively listening will also give you a better sense of where your daughter is coming from, between the distortions.

if you do decide to read this book, there isnt one iota of it you need agree with. but you can agree with listening. it will help to read and reread this lesson: https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

[CC43]

Kindness,

I've mentioned on other posts that these hurtful accusations are often projections.  Even so, the accusations can sting and have you questioning yourself.  But given that your daughter has fanciful memories and is continuing to blame you for everything as she is approaching middle age, I don't think you have much to worry about (at least about being narcissistic yourself).  Your username is Kindness by the way. . . .

These days, labels like "narcissism" have mutated.  I thought that narcissism meant being so self-absorbed that one ignores the needs of everyone else, and the trait is so severe that it damages multiple relationships.  But maybe the term in your daughter's mind just means "selfish."  We are all selfish sometimes.  We have to be, just to function.

Indeed you have a dilemma around the reading assignment.  Reading the book it may imply that you agree with the accusation of narcissism, and not reading it may imply that you disregard your daughter's request and feelings, invalidating her.  I wonder, if you do read the book and try to discuss it with your daughter, whether the discussion will devolve into a grievance Olympics, as she details once again the many ways you ruined her life.  Sometimes I wonder if re-hashing the past, and dredging up the associated negative feelings, is productive.  I have a stepdaughter diagnosed with BPD, and she's had inordinate trouble "getting past the past."

I just don't know about how to handle this dilemma.  Maybe you read the book (taking the themes with a grain of salt), but let your daughter take the lead on discussing it, while trying to avoid a situation where she unleashes her litany of grievances against you.  Or when she starts with that, try to redirect her towards ways to move forward.  Yet in my experience, the dysregulated person in my life is not interested in an apology, or in looking forward to a mended relationship.  She wants "retribution," no matter how misguided that is.  It's as if she uses her ruminations about the past as a protective blanket, to shield her from having to face the future as an independent adult.  She finds this so scary that she prefers the routine of rumination and blaming her parents and family.

All the best to you.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[EyesUp]

Lots of good inputs here.

I tend to think in terms of communication styles.

Someone with NPD: unlikely to accept the assignment, at least not without stipulations and qualifications.

Covert NPD: will accept the assignment, but find a way to turn it around.

Someone without NPD but with an easily triggered defense mechanism:  will answer "yes, but..." and go on to provide a defense before reading...

Someone with active listening and no defense mechanism:  will answer "yes, I'll read" and then read it, or perhaps just skim it - enough to provide some acknowledgement

Someone with a ton of active listening plus other skills:  might add to the above, at the right time and place, "thanks for that suggestion.  by the way, here's something else I've read about narcissism if you want to discuss let me know... " and see where it leads.

Ultimately, there's no roadmap - these are just options.  They may or may not work.  That said, the active listening approach creates a chance of... something.  vs. avoidance or defensiveness almost certainly eliminate that chance.   

[2much4me]

Never fight back, that is their whole point.  I mean, why else would someone hurl a meaningless and cliche accusation at you like "you are a narcissist"?  She knows it will piss you off and that you will fight back. We're all narcissists to some degree.  Rather than falling into the trap of "no you are a narcissist, no you are!" perhaps you can say to her "maybe? but, can you tell me more about what you mean by that?"

Now, admittedly, it's easier said than done.  Our BPD kids KNOW our triggers. But, if you ever want to see a MASTER of this technique, go online and look at youtube videos of Marsha Linehan, who invented DBT, working with patients. She's amazing.

[SendingKindness]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful suggestions! At this point, I've thanked her for sending me the link and told her I would read it (well, I'm listening to it) and let her know when I'm finished. I'm hoping this can lead to a thoughtful discussion between us. 

I am more than willing to hear about how she believes my parenting style felt to her. I have thought and thought about this, especially when she first estranged herself from me and other family members. It is very painful to think that I unknowingly caused my own daughter such pain. My parenting style was not something I had really thought about too much before, as I always believed I was a pretty good mom (my kids, including my daughter, my extended family, my ex, my children's teachers and my close friends all told me this many times, so it was easy for me to believe it, I guess). Plus, I had a very happy childhood myself with wonderful loving parents, and generally let them be my guide when raising my own children. I felt blessed to have them as role models, but also tried to keep up with new parenting tips as I came across them.

But there were bumps along the way - her father and I separated when she was about 10 (although we made a point of never exposing our children to our arguments, or of badmouthing each other, and she always saw him frequently growing up), I worked full time as well as being the most responsible parent to my two kids, so wasn't always there as much as I could have been, I think (although I was a very active participant at her swim meets, piano recitals, softball games, high school musicals, birthday parties, sleepovers, etc, etc - so not absent either, by any means!).

I think my daughter was particularly sensitive, and looking back, I think I sometimes expected her to 'just get over' life's little difficulties, and maybe this seemed like invalidating her feelings. I don't really know if I'm on the right track here, and if I am I still don't really understand how that might have ballooned into these awful memories she now has.

I guess this might sound a bit defensive - I am really going to try to open my mind and hear her and not argue, while also no validating the invalid! Stay tuned!

[Pook075]

I think my daughter was particularly sensitive, and looking back, I think I sometimes expected her to 'just get over' life's little difficulties, and maybe this seemed like invalidating her feelings. I don't really know if I'm on the right track here, and if I am I still don't really understand how that might have ballooned into these awful memories she now has.

Hey Kindness.  I wanted to quickly share my story for a little perspective here.  I raised a BPD daughter and a second daughter with my BPD ex wife.  My ex could never deal with anything and would shut down/give in when my BPD kid lashed out, so I always had to be the tough parent.  Early on (up until maybe 10ish years old), we thought it was just behavioral.  But it kept growing and intensifying- more violence, more screaming and rages, more running away and telling everyone I was the devil, until I woke up in my sleep having a heart attack at age 43.  She was 15 at the time and the stress was absolutely killing me.

We started having her sent to in-house therapies around this time and she'd tell them that the entire problem was me- I was horrible, I was mean, etc.  They'd ask if I beat her and she'd say no, but twist it to sound like I wanted to hit her often but was never able to.  She'd also say that I constantly put her down, called her names, and made her feel worthless 100% of the time.

What we learned several years later was that my wife and I were in fact at fault for everything that happened- it was 100% on us and how we raised her.  Because when she threw a tantrum, I'd ground her, then she'd scream at my wife for hours and eventually they'd go do whatever the kid wanted to do.  In other words, my wife rewarded bad behavior every single time because it was easier than doing what was right.  She was trained that rebellion gets you whatever you want in life.

By the time she was 18, my wife had enough.  They'd get into fist fights weekly and my non-daughter or I would have to break them up.  My wife finally told her to get out, that she was dead to her, and I didn't step in the way.  She went after our non-daughter with a pair of scissors and my wife had to wrestle her to the ground.  So we kicked her out on the streets.

For the next several months, my kid continued to say we were the devil...for the first time painting my wife black as well.  She'd call and complain how hard her life was and we'd simply respond, "I'm so sorry, but this is the life you've freely chosen."  Things got worse for her but we kept our distance since we weren't being in the middle of her destruction anymore.  She briefly got married, it was a train wreck of a marriage, and she returned home at 21...only to be kicked out again a few months later.

This time she decided that she was into women since she'd never let another man hurt her again.  So she bounced from couch to couch, relationship to relationship, until her mental state finally came crashing down way lower than it ever had before.  She'd threatened suicide dozens of times at this point and made a few futile attempts, but this time she actually wanted to die because she couldn't live that way anymore.  She checked herself into a program and actually made efforts to change.

Today, my kid is still unstable at times at 24, but she'll tell you that I was a strict father because she was a terrible child.  She'll tell you that she abused all of us because she couldn't deal with her emotions, and her choice of friends (other people w/ mental illness) caused chaos in her life.  She'll tell you that she regrets all of it because she's not actually aware and in control of her own life.

Your child, although much older, has failed to realize that she has made choices that have created the path she's on.  Instead, she blames you and others, because it's so much easier than admitting the plain truth.  As parents, we must stop accepting that abuse and continual blame, because doing so enables more reckless behavior and disordered thinking.

The best advice I can give you is to stop walking on eggshells and accepting your daughter's version of events as reality.  I can see no harm in doing this exercise with her to see if you're a narcissist, but it's also a great opportunity to point out what a narcissist wouldn't do...they wouldn't show love and empathy when their kid was unhinged.  She's projecting this and she does believe it to be true, so this would be an amazing time to mention family therapy to work through this.  Because either she sees the patterns and wants to make changes, or this will be there forever.

I hope that helps.

[SendingKindness]

Thanks Pook075 for sharing all that - wow - what a roller coaster you've been on and I really appreciate all the insight! I appreciate your advice about calling a spade a spade and not accepting abuse. I have, drawn some pretty firm boundaries around certain behaviours. For example, last summer and fall she began rage-texting me, and leaving voice mails, yelling obscene insults and name-calling. This has been somewhat easier to manage as we live a long distance from each other, so we mostly communicate by text and phone call. So I set a boundary of no name calling, swearing or insults. Every time she did that, I blocked her for 24 hours (or longer), after one warning. She has pretty well stopped that behaviour now, but if she starts, I remind her of my boundaries and block her again, if she continues. Haven't had to do that for a few months now.

There is no way I would ever admit to the things she has accused me of, but I am thinking I can at least try to understand her underlying emotions, without admitting these things actually happened. Maybe this will lead to her opening up and being a bit more introspective. During a recent conversation, she admitted to having an anger problem and said she was having some success in managing it, so she didn't impact others. Even that is quite an advance from where she was 6 months ago! So I think she seems to be becoming more aware of the effect her rages are having on others and has some empathy for them. I guess it may seem like I'm grasping at straws, but I feel like somewhere inside she is trying to make sense of this all and I just need to try to reach that inner part of her and nurture and encourage it. (She was much more aware of other's feelings when she was growing up, so I know it was there once!).

I have suggested family therapy in the past, and I think she has become close to agreeing. Although I think her vision of that is that we'd see a therapist who would confirm her interpretation and understanding of all events and she would be proven correct and vindicated. So getting her onboard with seeing (and staying with) someone with a more nuanced approach will be harder to pull off. But I am hoping that by at least starting a conversation, we might make some progress. I guess I could say, after I've finished the book, that I'd like to discuss it and maybe it would help both of us to do that with an online counsellor. Not sure how receptive she'll be, but at this point, it seems worth a try.

I think one difference in our situations is that my daughter and I had a fairly good relationship until this all went sideways about 3 years ago. I think that was due to some extreme stress she was under that led to stress-induced psychosis (an evaluation from a mobile mental health team that I asked to visit her about a year ago) and then some of the BPD traits we are seeing now. I was told at the time that if I could reduce the stress (most financial), her more rational mind could come to the fore. I have been endeavouring to do that to the degree I am able to. I don't know if I'm dreaming in technicolour, but I am hoping that the fairly short duration of her really intense behaviour may mean that she has a chance to heal from it, at least to some degree. As you can tell, I am still pretty new to this and feeling my way, so really appreciate the insights of you and others in this group - what you are all saying seems very relevant and wise!

[kells76]

Hi SendingKindness;

I think you're on to something here:

There is no way I would ever admit to the things she has accused me of, but I am thinking I can at least try to understand her underlying emotions, without admitting these things actually happened. Maybe this will lead to her opening up and being a bit more introspective. During a recent conversation, she admitted to having an anger problem and said she was having some success in managing it, so she didn't impact others. Even that is quite an advance from where she was 6 months ago! So I think she seems to be becoming more aware of the effect her rages are having on others and has some empathy for them. I guess it may seem like I'm grasping at straws, but I feel like somewhere inside she is trying to make sense of this all and I just need to try to reach that inner part of her and nurture and encourage it. (She was much more aware of other's feelings when she was growing up, so I know it was there once!).

That's the core of true emotional validation 

Sometimes there are misconceptions about validation, especially in the high-octane situation of having loved ones with BPD.

Common misconceptions are that "validation" means:

agreeing with their accusation/perspective
calming them down
reassuring them of how great/valued/capable they are
managing their feelings
being really, really careful not to set them off
not disagreeing, but fuming inside
saying "I hear what you're saying, but___"
being positive
reminding them of your love
making sure they don't feel abandoned
helping them understand that their feeling is irrational
going along with anything they say
staying in conversations that are abusive/dysregulated
taking responsibility for their emotional state
calming them down

Fortunately, true validation isn't any of those things.

it's putting yourself in their shoes, as they express an emotion with their words, understanding how it would feel to feel that feeling (regardless of the cause, facts, or "facts"), and genuinely sharing: "it would feel ____________ to feel that way".

In your situation, as you're thinking through how to navigate interacting with your daughter about the topic of narcissism, the great thing is that you aren't required to agree with her memories, perceptions, or statements, for you to still be able to genuinely emotionally validate.

For example, if she says something like: "You were never there for me, you never came to any of my events, because you were so wrapped up in your own life", you can pause, think about how it would feel to feel alone/not paid attention to, and share that:

"It would feel so lonely and devastating to feel like your mother was never around."

Because you can imagine that, right? Regardless of what did or didn't happen, that feeling is real, and it would feel so bad to feel that alone.

(There's the sort of parallel approach, too, where there may be a "grain of truth" in her accusations, so it is important to pause and consider -- is there anything legitimate there? It's OK to take responsibility for things we really did -- even if it's a pwBPD saying it -- just like it's OK not to take responsibility for things we really didn't do)

Anyway -- hope that adds some clarity to the topic of validation.

...

If/when she talks about the visit from the mobile team for the psychotic episode, how does she talk about it? Does she recognize/accept that she had a problem, or does she externalize ("I was fine, they made me go")?

[SendingKindness]

Thanks so much kells76 - this is so very helpful - I think I am going to print it out and keep it somewhere I can refer to quickly when I am communicating with her! I know I have tried to do some of these things (e.g. being really really careful not to set her off, trying to get her to understand her feeling is irrational.) Plus I think the thing I have the most difficulty with is not being defensive when she says something completely over the top (e.g. that I whipped her and threatened to burn down a shed I'd locked her in). But I am learning to not react, and just try to empathize with how it would feel if I actually thought my mother had done that. I have also made up a list of empathetic and validating phrases I can use in such situations - at least as a start. Still practising how to continue such a conversation, at this point! I think it's when I deny her claims (and therefore her feelings) that she 'amps up' the volume on the accusations - I guess in order to be heard?

Since she estranged herself and made all these accusations, I have been trying so hard to understand if there is some grain of truth in any of her claims, but really struggling with this - for example, I certainly never whipped her, and didn't spank her either, so I find it hard to find a grain of truth in that claim. Regarding putting her in shed and threatening to burn it down - I've tried to think if there was an instance of fire, or being trapped or locked up, in her childhood that might have scared her, but can't come up with anything. I've looked at old photos and re-read all her report cards from teachers and she is always described as a happy, clever, engaged student - just a bit talkative! I still have an old picture journal she kept as a child, and there are no clues there. I'm wondering if its possible that she somehow transferred this from stories or movies she watched - she was really into Disney movies like Cinderella and Snow White and there are some scary things in those movies. She also told me she identified with Colette from Le Miserable (it was popular when she was in about grade 1 and her class learned the song 'Castle in a Cloud' then) - it has some sad images and a story of being apart from her mother. She was also really into the story of Anne of Green Gables - who is an orphan separated from her parents. I'm wondering if she somehow internalized these things and has made them into her own 'memories'. She was often very sensitive about such stories, as a child, and maybe I didn't realize at the time how they were affecting her. Interestingly, she told me a few months ago, when she was very angry, that I wasn't her real mother - that her real mother was kind and looked after her when she was sad. While that was hard to hear in one way (that she didn't think I'm her real mother), I appreciated the fact she remembered a kind mother in her past!

I may also be really reaching here, but I also wonder if some of this could stem from her being born prematurely - she was 9 weeks early and spent the first 6 weeks of life in an incubator, rather than in a warm cozy home environment. I used to go and sit beside her incubator for hours with my arm resting on her to make her feel connected and I carried her around in a Snugglie for months to try to counteract that early experience, but I've always worried that initial experience with the world could have affected her emotionally - maybe not at first, but now? It might fit with the feelings of being abandoned, or not loved?? I've read a couple articles about a possible link between premature birth and BPD. As you can see, I am really wrestling with trying to make sense of all this and trying to understand causes, and not sure I ever will!

Re your question about her interaction with the mental health team. For context, she lives across the country from me, and doesn't currently want me to visit (she says she has PTSD - from the whipping, etc!). I have been respecting her wishes, although I do get very worried about her at times and regularly want to jump on a plane and go see her - although the advice I've had is not to do this, so I've resisted my urges. Added to the difficulty is that I don't know a lot of people where she is (she moved to a new town 4 years ago - 1 month before the pandemic shutdown and didn't get to know a lot of people there), and she has alienated so many old friends and family that there are few people to call if I haven't heard from her and would like to ask someone else to check on her.  She generally does reach out to me, particularly if she is worried or scared. One time, she called and was acting so paranoid (afraid members of Mossad were after her, bugging her phone, sending drones to spy on her, etc.), saying she couldn't go out of the house to get food, etc. that I asked the mental health team to do a wellness check. At first I didn't want them to say it was me who called. They called me back and said she was so paranoid about them (e.g. that they might be members of Mossad!) that they would like to let her know I was the one who called. I felt it was a bit of a risk (for our relationship), but agreed they could let her know, so they could interact with her and possibly help her. She reacted very angrily at me for doing this and has told people that her mother 'sent the police after her' (the team consists of a uniformed police officer and a psychiatric nurse). So that is pretty well how she refers to it now - as more evidence of my abuse. I haven't mentioned their suggestion of psychosis to her - they told me she strongly resisted any suggestion that anything was wrong (with her), and she thinks it is me who needed psychiatric treatment. They also told me she was not in a state where they could apprehend her, although the best thing would be for her to be seen by a psychiatrist, if she could be convinced to do this. For now they have been working on gaining her trust, and I think that has been working - she's told me that they are her friends (She also says they hate me and they agree with her that I'm mentally ill).  The team does keep in touch with me, so they are a helpful resource I could call on again, if necessary. I think she has gotten a bit better since that time I originally called them - at least I haven't felt the need for another wellness check.

Well, this is getting very long again, and going all over the place, I'm sure!

Again, thanks for all the very relevant tips and wisdom, kells76 - so appreciated!

[BPDstinks]

it is hard to resist the urges, hmm?  I want to drive to my daughters & camp outside her car & say, I am here...talk to me, however, my non BPD daughter reigns that in; believe me, I was told I did SOOOO many things (one time BPD said, "you hurt me", (this was prior to my reading NOT to be defensive) I apologized..."I am sorry for whatever I did that hurt you, can you give me an example?" she gave me the CHILLIEST look & said, "you know what you did" (I don't!) it is quite maddening, really

[Maggie EF]

I wonder what she would do if you flipped the script on her. What if you were thankful, read the book, and told her the parts you liked? Then, make notes about it or even post things around the house or in your mirror and look for things you could improve about yourself. Maybe in that whole book, there's something worthwhile. I wonder if she would lose interest in calling you a narcissist and then move on? I mean what would she say, my mom is a narcissit and I gave her a book and she read it and made changes, oh wo is me. That might take all the wind out of her sails. 

[CC43]

Kindness,

I understand the struggle of trying to understand where the delusional thinking and the dysfunction come from.  It's one of the reasons I keep coming back to this website.  I'm a rational person, more so than an emotional one, and I'm still struggling to make sense of it all.  I can't help but try to sort out what is real vs. what is manufactured distress, to avoid making a distressing situation worse.

I will note that my diagnosed stepdaughter suffered from periods of delusion and paranoia when she was under extreme stress.  She sometimes thought that people were "out to get her."  Some of the descriptions of your daughter's behavior seem to be very similar.  I understand that bouts of delusion are one of the features of BPD.

My stepdaughter also invents stories and re-writes history, twisting fact patterns to make herself out to be a victim.  While the facts are false (or at least highly distorted), the feelings are very real to her.  Maybe her brain is trying to sort out why her feelings are so intense, and her brain is re-interpreting events in a way to fit the feelings.  Then the stories become her version of the truth.  She's been caught in outrageous lies (like accusing her father of molestation).  So she has dialed back on some of the stories of purported abuse, while leaving the details vague, to make them seem more plausible.

Anyway, I bet you'll never find clues from your daughter's childhood which unlock the mystery of the purported abuse, because her stories are mostly fabricated.  Maybe there's a kernel of truth, like an argument, or a time she was lost, or a time she felt alone and alienated.  Maybe you look for the feelings rather than the facts:  times of loneliness, alienation, fear, jealousy, inferiority or shame.  If your daughter is sensitive, maybe she was traumatized by these feelings and still hasn't really understood or gotten over them.  That's what I mean when I say that my own stepdaughter can't get past the past.

I'll share just one more tidbit from my experience with my stepdaughter, to try to help you see how the distortion works.  My stepdaughter's rages and fabrications tend to coincide with current stresses or disappointments.  For example, one day my stepdaughter traveled to another city to attend some important tryouts.  Fortunately, her aunt offered to let her stay overnight at her place, as she lived nearby.  They had dinner together and apparently had a fun girls' night out.  The next morning, as my stepdaughter was leaving for the tryouts, her aunt suggested that she take some water with her, because it was a hot day, and she might be standing in the heat a long time.  Two days later, my stepdaughter found out she wasn't selected.  She proceeded to rail against her aunt, accusing her of being demeaning and treating her like a baby by offering water.  Then she threatened her aunt with thinly veiled violence, if she dared be alone with my stepdaughter ever again.  The aunt was devastated and also frightened by the accusations, after having such a nice visit.  She couldn't understand how offering water could provoke such rage, and she couldn't recall saying anything remotely offensive.  On the contrary, the aunt thought that she went out of her way to make the visit as pleasant as possible.  Anyway, once I found out that my stepdaughter didn't get her coveted position, it was clear to me that she couldn't control her intense feelings of rejection.  She had to release them onto her aunt, finding an excuse (feeling demeaned by her), rather than face the simple fact that she just didn't get what she wanted at the tryouts.  In short, because the feelings of rejection and inferiority were too extreme for her to handle, she re-wrote history to fit the emotional overload and lashed out at her formerly beloved aunt.  This is the sort of scenario that has played out multiple times.  Unfortunately, it has also wrecked relationships with family and friends.

I hope this helps explain some behaviors.  All the best to you.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SendingKindness]

Thanks to MaggieEF and CC43 for your help and advice! I'm in a bit of a holding pattern. I thanked her for the book and told her I'd read it, then I read it, then (as she had asked) I let her know I had read it (all this by text). Her last text to me was on a completely different topic (apparently working on a business deal and worried people are talking about her - so some of the paranoia coming again). I've been through this before with her - where something seems really urgent, and is then forgotten. She has also told me she doesn't like it when I ask questions, so I'm respecting that and just waiting to see if she wants to continue this discussion.

As once removed had said, I found the book pretty simplistic and very black and white (maybe that's the appeal?). In it, narcissistic mothers are malevolent - completely devoted to the destruction of their children in all ways, it seems. And the children of such mothers have all sorts of problems - all clearly the fault of this awful mother. So it is hard to read that and think she sees me this way. But my plan at this point is to stay curious and gentle with her, as she is clearly hurting from something, and at least wants to talk with me about it - as opposed to the advice in the book, which repeatedly advises children of narcissistic mothers to go 'no contact'.  I am hoping she gets back to me on this topic, but giving her space at this point!

[Pook075]

I am hoping she gets back to me on this topic, but giving her space at this point!

Unfortunately, the timelines are not up to you.  If you ever do get to have the conversation though, be prepared to listen and ask for specifics whenever she throws out general black/white thinking (you were always mean, you were never there, etc). 

What I've found with my BPD relationships is that a lot of these beliefs form over time and it's sort of like building a pyramid out of a deck of cards...each layer may carry some truth, but somehow the overall picture is a lie.  This comes from disordered thinking stacking one thought on another, until they all become absolutes.

For example:

- 'Mom didn't care about my <interests/hobbies> growing up' transforms to 'mom never cared about me'.
- 'Mom didn't know what I was going through' transforms to 'mom always put others above me.'

And as they go down that rabbit hole, piling disordered 'fact' on top of disordered 'fact', they come to the conclusion that you're a really, really bad person who's always been manipulative and abusive.  Like Kells said, there's often some nuggets of truth in there...maybe you didn't attend all her school events because of work (or whatever).  So that one thing gets taken out of context and leads to the next thing, which also gets twisted because of the previous 'fact'.

To your daughter, it's all real and the pain associated from it is also real.  That deserves sympathy, even if it is all convoluted and based on lies.  Because to her, it's all truth due to mental illness.

So what can you personally do?  Peel back one of those layers if you ever get to have that conversation.  Show sympathy and remorse for her disordered thinking (you could just call it a misunderstanding), and gently seek specifics that can be talked out.  Maybe she'll listen, maybe not, but it's planting a seed that can later grow.  That's all any of us can do until the BPD's in our life are ready to make changes.

[SendingKindness]

Thanks @Pook075.

Well, she has gotten back to me, but there is an added subtext. She just charged something to a joint line of credit that we had agreed not to use (she is unable to repay her previous charges on it - I have been keeping up the interest payments on her behalf). I asked her about it (just a simple 'can you let me know if you charged xx to the joint account?'). She said she had and I asked her to discuss with me before using it, as we had agreed.

Her response:
'Well I have been trying to make money again while China bought the bank that defrauded me (this is a recurring theme for her - being defrauded by banks, lawyers, etc.) and my mother tells my family I"m a degenerate' (I have not done this, although she has sent raging texts and phone calls to several family members who have now cut her off). Then...

 'can you please print out the digital version of that book, and highlight the parts of your behaviour you understand have occurred'.

I've gotta say I could feel myself being triggered by this (in the past, she's said she could be the therapist for me and would tell me where I'd gone wrong, which also rankles), but held off responding so I can do so when I am calmer. My first thoughts were - here I am keeping an account alive for you, and you're calling me a narcissist?? (I am financially supporting her in other ways too, but have put a lot of boundaries around that so have mostly got it wrestled under control).

Anyway, I am trying to think of a good response to this that keeps the conversation going. Maybe say that must feel bad to think I've told family she was a degenerate, and ask for examples? Regarding the book, maybe say I'm not sure, but am more interested in what she thinks is relevant in it?

Still obviously learning how to do this, so any suggestions for how to respond to these latest messages would be very helpful. Also interested in how others would react to such messages? Would anyone else be bothered by this?Thank you for any advice!

[CC43]

Kindness,

I imagine that your daughter resents being financially dependent  on you. Since the resentment is highly disturbing to her, she’s inventing an excuse to blame you for the situation (I.e. it’s your fault I need the money because you messed me up, and the banks defrauded me too, making my life impossible). This victim mentality saves her from dealing with problems like an adult and taking responsibility.

She’s using guilt to push your ATM buttons. But she doesn’t believe she’s abusing you; on the contrary, it’s the other way around in her mind. Thus this will continue for as long as you allow it.  At least that’s the way I see it. If you cut off the ATM, she will likely cut you off until she needs something else from you, or until she gets therapy and realizes she wants a relationship. That’s been my experience with a person with BPD in my life.

[Pook075]

Well, she has gotten back to me, but there is an added subtext. She just charged something to a joint line of credit that we had agreed not to use

Question- can you remove her from the account?  Or remove yourself?  You shouldn't be paying ANY of her bills, especially when she's ungrateful.

'can you please print out the digital version of that book, and highlight the parts of your behaviour you understand have occurred'.

I would not respond to that unless you simply want to say that you have a better understanding of narcissism after reading the book.  Then I'd find one particular passage that relates to her recent behavior and talk about that.

[once removed]

Maybe say that must feel bad to think I've told family she was a degenerate, and ask for examples?

i wouldnt bite on this part.

Regarding the book, maybe say I'm not sure, but am more interested in what she thinks is relevant in it?

this one requires a chess move. i think CC43 has a good read on it; the demand is likely coming from a place of resentment at being dependent on you, and resentment at herself. any reminder that shes not in charge of it is likely to feel, to her, like control, which isnt to suggest you shouldnt have asked, just why shes sort of trying to flip the script.

i like where youre going with it. put the work (of communicating her feelings specifically) back on her, so to speak, but i think in doing so, you want to be careful that you dont sound dismissive or shut the whole thing down; that youre not just saying "i dunno, you tell me". i think "im not sure, but am more interested in what you think is relevant" may trip that wire. in other words, message is on target, but may require more delicate wording.

its a really tough one, truly tricky, and she may flip out on you regardless of how its worded; know that, and know that that part is less important, and not entirely in your control, so eyes more on the long game than avoiding that specifically. there are folks here who can help target the wording, or offer alternatives. its got me pretty stumped! but i think youve got the right instinct.

[SendingKindness]

Thanks to @once removed, @CC43 and @Pook075 for your advice!

I still haven't responded to her and will digest this all a bit more before I do. I appreciate all the thoughts so far.

I think CC43 is right about the victim mentality aspect - I've really seen this grow in her over the past few years and it seems to be taking root in her mind, while she didn't have that perspective about her life in the past. I wish I knew how to encourage to her move past it - as it seems she takes her own power away by thinking she's a constant victim of others. It seems this started during the beginning of COVID when she lost her job, then had a business deal go bad. I think these things really rocked her world, and she no longer felt successful and happy with her life - so decided to blame others for these things, especially me. She has really locked into this way of thinking for about 3 years it seems, and I wish I knew how to help her change that perspective! I've been trying to say lots of affirming, positive things to her, and I think that helps a bit, but not for long, it seems.

One thing I've noticed is that she often wants to communicate by text or email, but I don't find that very satisfactory and feel we have better conversations when we are actually talking to each other. I  am hoping to convince her that we should just have a conversation where I will listen to her perspective and maybe that will eventually help her move on from this victim mentality she seems so invested in.

I also appreciate the points about the financial support. This is something I also wrestle with for sure. I have frozen the joint account for now, so it can't be used, since we had already agreed to that. For some background - when she first got ahold of me a year ago (after 2.5 years of estrangement) I was very alarmed at her mental state. Her financial situation was in complete disarray, she seemed so paranoid that she couldn't function properly and was under huge stress as a result. Colleagues told me she was not employable in her current state. The mental health response team in her community told me she had stress-induced psychosis at the time, and that anything I could do to reduce stress could help her rational mind come to the fore.  I therefore began to provide her with a subsistence allowance for necessities and I have also helped her with a few financial emergencies. She has gradually begun to get ahold of her finances again, but is not independent yet. I am constantly trying to understand the balance between providing legitimate 'support' and enabling her on-going dependence, which I don't think she wants anymore than I do.

Still open to advice from anyone on any of these topics - and very grateful for the wise advice so far!

[livednlearned]

Hi SendingKindness, these kids/stepkids with BPD traits are very complex and confusing and can inflict a lot of (their) pain on the people who love them most  

You have good instincts and I admire the way you're gathering information to learn what you can, and to support your daughter through what sounds like a fairly devastating mental health injury for her. Psychosis suggests she was operating well outside her capacities. It might take a while for her to recover, for the same reasons she had the episode in the first place.

I can understand wanting to use her "read this book about narcissist mothers" ... suggestion (e.g. demand) as a way to stay connected to her, since she is likely to retreat further into isolation if you assert a boundary at a time when she already has her hand on the rip cord. And, like others have said above, you want to listen or validate where it makes sense and not an inch more. How to manage false narratives is really tricky -- you're not alone in struggling with this. I think we all hold our breath a bit as we inch our way through these conversations.  

At the same time, there may be a foregone conclusion where she is destined to cut off contact, regardless of what you say or do. It doesn't mean don't try to handle things delicately and skillfully -- sometimes things line up just right and we get through a hurdle. But it's also realistic to know that the best-case scenario may be a temporary estrangement while she returns to baseline.

For better or worse, she seems to be trying to stay connected to you while regulating her emotions (by using text and email) and using the book to (in a weird way) test something out. She is trying to control her feelings by controlling you, which unfortunately is not a very skilled way to manage emotions.

Sometimes it feels like pwBPD traits set up tests they know are likely to end in rejection because being a victim can feel like a warm blanket. It protects them from self-activating and returning to life.

This makes it hard for us as people who love them because they create a distorted sense of safety by using us to set up and confirm their victimhood, and in the process victimize us.

You know your daughter best, as complex as she may be, and you are an expert on yourself, knowing what you are willing to endure -- those pieces we can only guess at. Even so, maybe we can troubleshoot with you and see if there are suggestions that align with your values and goals, and seem worth trying given where your daughter is at in her current state of mind.

Do you sense that she will cut contact with you regardless of how you respond? If so, is that something you have support for and can get through? How you feel about this is probably central to figuring out the best plan for you and your own mental health.

Option 1 is that you say no. (Nuclear option.)
Option 2 is that you do what she says. (Abusive option.)
Option 3 is somewhere in the middle. (Uncertain outcome option.)

For option 3, is there a possibility that the two of your together can determine the rules of engagement for how you'll respond to this request? You mentioned you would like to speak in person, she wants you to underline phrases. Is she capable of making a compromise do you think?

For the sake of your own mental health, she cannot be unwilling to negotiate because there is potential for abuse there. If she isn't willing to budge an inch, and decides to cut contact, temporary cooling off period was probably going to happen anyway.

Do you think she might be open to suggestions? If so, "Maybe we could ..." is a helpful way to start a sentence with declarative language when you're trying to have a conversation about a topic likely to be dysregulating. Declarative language starts with things like "I noticed, I wondered, I might want to, That's a great question, We could possibly, I don't know yet, I'm not sure, etc."

Declarative language is not a silver bullet but it does hedge on the side of stepping gingerly around landmines on the battlefield. This is important if you want to stay connected and give her a way out of the dead end she's creating for your relationship.

My husband and I saw a child psychologist to discuss my stepdaughter (autistic with BPD traits) when we lived together. The T said "She is trying to wreck your marriage while being terrified she will succeed." Your daughter might be the same way, except the relationship is hers with you.

One thing I'm learning with my kids is that there is a time to support and a time to nudge.

It's ok to have a plan for crisis (support) and a plan for after (nudge). Right now seems to be a time where you are bridging between the two, a very confusing time. Supporting her doesn't mean giving into her demands, it means relieving yourself of pressure to come up with The Long Term Plan. It seems like the mental health responders are showing by example that now is the time to try and help stabilize. How to do that will probably be trial by error and figuring out what works and when.

Glad you posted. This is hard stuff to go through alone 

[SendingKindness]

Thanks so much @livednlearned! This is all so very thoughtful and helpful. I feel I still have so much to learn and understand but I am finding the participants on this site are helping more than anything else I have tried, so I am truly appreciative.

In response to your questions, my daughter seems to be wanting to keep in touch now, although she was estranged for 2.5 years previously, ending last May.

I really found your information about declarative statements helpful. I will try to start my next conversation with her that way. Unfortunately, based on a message this morning, I think she is getting quite delusional again, I think based on more financial stresses. So I'm trying to be supportive, without sending more $, which I cannot afford.

I really appreciate you sharing your experiences and successful approaches!