Marriage counselling

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi All,

I guess I am looking for a bit of advice.

I think we are going to go to Marriage counselling. I am worried about it.

In our last conversation she called me immature, patronizing, repeated telling me to stop shouting ( I wasn't ), told me "I" was arguing about the wrong things ( i wasn't arguing was just asking her to accept something that I was doing, and would like her to do something to meet me half way), told me I was behind the curve on what we need to do, kept telling me to be quiet she was talking (then would talk for minutes without letting me ask questions), or I wasn't listening, or I needed to cut certain things out, told me I am not trying (I am in therapy), told me when I make compliments they are out of character, and I need to tell her in advance when I am going to compliment her so she can receive it, told me I was clearly angry (I wasn't, a bit frustrated maybe!), that I am inpatient, grumpy etc, when I tried to leave for an appointment (that she knew of in advance) kept trying to make me stay and continue talking. I politely requested as I was leaving if she could stop insulting me "I would really appreciate it if you stop insulting me and telling me I am this and that as it's not constructive". She got really angry told me I was those things and told me to "Go as I am so angry, I thought we were getting somewhere but clearly not". In the midst of it she did make a few fair points which I agreed with, and it's this that leaves me so confused and muddled.

It's just exhausting, I was done in all yesterday and could not work, totally flat and exhausted , she on the other hand when I got home appeared to be on cloud 9. Like happier than happy, big grin on her face, laughing over the top etc with the kids. Don't get me wrong if she is happy that's great, but it just felt over the top/forced.

Part of me thinks Marriage counselling will show willing myside as a last ditch so I know I have done everything I can, part of me is terrified she will play her victim hand very well, and I will end up feeling abused by the therapist as well! Or maybe the therapist will see through it , and actually help?

Any ideas how I navigate this?

[CravingPeace]

Hi All,

I guess I am looking for a bit of advice.

I think we are going to go to Marriage counselling. I am worried about it.

In our last conversation she called me immature, patronizing, repeated telling me to stop shouting ( I wasn't ), told me "I" was arguing about the wrong things ( i wasn't arguing was just asking her to accept something that I was doing, and would like her to do something to meet me half way), told me I was behind the curve on what we need to do, kept telling me to be quiet she was talking (then would talk for minutes without letting me ask questions), or I wasn't listening, or I needed to cut certain things out, told me I am not trying (I am in therapy), told me when I make compliments they are out of character, and I need to tell her in advance when I am going to compliment her so she can receive it, told me I was clearly angry (I wasn't, a bit frustrated maybe!), that I am inpatient, grumpy etc, when I tried to leave for an appointment (that she knew of in advance) kept trying to make me stay and continue talking. I politely requested as I was leaving if she could stop insulting me "I would really appreciate it if you stop insulting me and telling me I am this and that as it's not constructive". She got really angry told me I was those things and told me to "Go as I am so angry, I thought we were getting somewhere but clearly not". In the midst of it she did make a few fair points which I agreed with, and it's this that leaves me so confused and muddled.

It's just exhausting, I was done in all yesterday and could not work, totally flat and exhausted , she on the other hand when I got home appeared to be on cloud 9. Like happier than happy, big grin on her face, laughing over the top etc with the kids. Don't get me wrong if she is happy that's great, but it just felt over the top/forced.

Part of me thinks Marriage counselling will show willing myside as a last ditch so I know I have done everything I can, part of me is terrified she will play her victim hand very well, and I will end up feeling abused by the therapist as well! Or maybe the therapist will see through it , and actually help?

Any ideas how I navigate this?

[kells76]

Hi CravingPeace;

That last conversation sounds like a grind, for sure. I can see why you'd feel exhausted and confused afterward.

I'm thinking that MC might be less about you or her individually, and more about the third entity -- your relationship.

I'm also thinking that taking a long-term mentality may be more effective.

Maybe you are feeling starved of validation? It can happen -- that last conversation with your W didn't sound very mutually validating. It makes sense that you'd want a MC to see through the disorder and see "what's really happening". It can be very validating when third parties seem to understand what we're living with.

So what may happen is that the MC might focus more on "regardless of who is doing what and who is doing it right and who is doing it wrong, each of you are doing things, and the other person has feelings about those things. When Ms CravingPeace says 'I feel XYZ when he does that', what do you think, Mr CravingPeace? Is that something you can work on?" And: "Ms CravingPeace, Mr CravingPeace says he felt ABC when you said XYZ. Are you willing to stop doing XYZ?" My guess is that the MC will focus on what makes the relationship livable (which could include or exclude any number of behaviors) rather than refereeing who is stable and who is not.

Additionally, the MC may focus, the first few sessions, on getting buy-in from each of you. That means there may be a session or two where it "seems like" the MC is just going along with whatever your W is saying/accusing you of. This may bring up a lot of feelings in you: "It's so unfair that the MC is taking her side, why can't the MC see that my W blames me for everything", etc.

The long-term mentality would be understanding that MC's can't help people who aren't there. The MC needs to build rapport and trust with both of you, and that will mean connecting with each of you where you are at, regardless of how the other person feels about it -- so that you each keep coming back. You may need to trust that when the MC seems to be believing whatever your W says, that it's part of the process, and is more about validating the valid in what your W relates, versus "the MC is taking my W's side".

If you can have the patience in those first few sessions to allow that process to play out, it may help you hang in there, and not get afraid or frustrated that the MC doesn't see what's going on.

Of course, there are no perfect MC's, and yes, it is possible that one may be fooled. But I wouldn't necessarily make that judgment after only a session or two. Give it some time and feel free to post here for feedback.

Also, it's likely that both of you may get "homework" from the MC. It is possible that the MC will give you your HW first and may not give your W HW right away (not a given, just a possibility). Don't take it personally or like the MC is saying "Only Mr CravingPeace has problems". The MC may recognize that you are more ready to do some work, and additionally, if the MC can show your W "hey, I'm not taking sides, everyone gets HW" then your W may buy into the process more.

I guess my overarching thought is that MC is not necessarily like individual counseling; it may focus more on the health of the relationship than on your individual needs (validation etc). Consider adding individual counseling to the MC if you want individual support -- it's likely that a MC can't provide individual counseling to you at the same time, especially with a high conflict marriage.

Take it one session at a time, don't feel like if one session "goes badly" that the MC doesn't get it, be prepared not to receive validation (right away), model that you are ready to try what the counselor suggests for HW, and remember that you don't have to "explain everything" in one session. This is a long term commitment and multiple sessions over time will show your relational dynamic to the MC -- not just one or two sessions.

Unfortunately, it's also possible that your W may not be in a place, due to her disorder, to have a solid foundation for doing MC work. It can happen -- MC isn't always successful with untreated PDs. It can be normal to ask the MC for a one-off individual session with either of you, so each of you has 1x1 time with the MC to raise concerns -- there may be a time where you ask for that and share that you're concerned that PD behaviors may be impairing the MC process.

Any of that answering your questions?

[EyesUp]

Here are a few themes that emerged in my experience while working with four (!) different marriage counselors over a period of about 10 years...

- Expect to be introduced to some homework assignments.  Some reading / assessments / frameworks may be familiar from resources that are available or referenced here.  "Love Languages" and the Gottman's "Four Horsemen" seem to be perennial...

- Don't expect the MC to take sides or to be a referee.  On one hand, the MC might set some basic ground rules re: everyone having fair and equal time to share and respond.  On the other hand, the MC is unlikely to do anything that would put them in a favored or impartial position, aligned with one spouse over the other.  From your POV, egregious behavior in counseling may go unchecked...  that can be frustrating.

- Some MCs will engage each partner 1:1 in addition to sessions with your spouse. Sometimes this is part of intake, other times it might be ongoing or as needed.  Others will explicitly avoid sidebars or 1:1 discussion - this is generally to keep things fair and consistent and to avoid any potential triangulation.  Different MCs approach things... differently.  Might be a good idea to interview a few and ask about approach and what to expect.

- As part of onboarding, be prepared to state what you hope to achieve or get out of the process. Depending on the MC's process, this might be 1:1 or it might be in a session with your spouse - who will also need to answer the question...  I imagine a lot of people say "improve communication" or "resolve a, b, or c..." - I encourage you to carefully consider how to establish expectations with yourself, the counselor, and your spouse.

- Some people will work with a MC for a short term "tune up" on communications or a specific issue.  Others may continue over a long period of time...  It's generally an open-ended process.  Even when you go in with well defined goals - knowing when the goals have been met may be uncertain for one or more participants.  Outcomes can take a long time, and the MC doesn't really have an incentive to accelerate the process...

In my case, the MC process was ultimately helpful in recognizing a few deeply seated patterns in the relationship - even if those patterns were not explicitly addressed by the MC...

Best of luck with this process...  no matter what ultimately happens with your spouse, MC can be a unique opportunity to gain understanding, in part thanks to the presence of an objective observer - That's something that many of us don't have when BPD behaviors are targeted exclusively or almost exclusively at us.

[CravingPeace]

Thanks Kells76. Yes thats helpful its just whether I have the energy for it! In terms of invalidation that is fair. My wife told me in this concersation I am not to tell her how I am feeling unless she asks me specifically. So yeah quite unvalidated. I havent mentioned my work for months for example as she said it stresses her out and she doesnt want to hear about it. She doesn't work.

[CravingPeace]

Thanks eyesup. Yes my target is to improve communication for the sake of the kids and ask she stops insulting me.

Love languages I know all about. Apparently i never do things for her love language! When I do try to they are dismissed as "just logistics"! Whereas I have been told not to touch her....

Funny how I must put more effort into her language but she doesn't feel the need to reciprocate. Anyway I will go in with an open mind and do my best.

Thanks for the tips

 

[ForeverDad]

I did try marriage counseling, several months before my marriage imploded.  Long story short, my ex accompanied me but refused MC.  She did offer to sit in to "support me" but the director stepped in and said No, without her, it would only be individual counseling with her waiting in the lobby.

Well, I ought to share a little more.  I had sent a brief message that my ex was highly entitled and emotional.  What I didn't know was that she had herself sent a message that she would sue them if she didn't like anything.  So of course when we arrived the director was there to ensure chaos was kept in check.

So I had 3 sessions.  Problem was, all the psychologist did was focus on my FOO (family of origin).  I didn't mind that but I expected help to deal with my spouse and resolve those issues, not merely my family background.  Looking back, I'm not sure exactly how I ended those sessions but I do recall I was very disappointed that in 3 sessions the lady never once dealt with the marital issues or how to deal with my out-of-control then-spouse.  I mean, life had become a version of he!! but not one suggestion about it.  (And no hint of possible Personality Disorders.)

That was about April or May 2005.  Finally, in desperation I called a local hospital asking for a home visit.  It was a weekend in August and that man who answered the psychiatric line couldn't help but he did say it sounded like a [Personality Dysfunction.  Bingo!  No thanks to 3 clueless sessions in individual counseling, I now had something to research!  I lurked for months at first but registered here in January, by then separated but not yet filed for divorce.

Back to your situation... @kells wrote a very concise and informative post about MC.  The only thing I could add is that if MC does continue, expect a perceptive MC to encourage (require?) you both to also start individual counseling to complement the MC process.

[zondolit]

Part of me thinks Marriage counselling will show willing myside as a last ditch so I know I have done everything I can, part of me is terrified she will play her victim hand very well, and I will end up feeling abused by the therapist as well! Or maybe the therapist will see through it , and actually help?

I think entering into marriage counseling is very scary, and you articulate the reasons above so well.

If the counseling works to help the marriage, it will mean both spouses must engage in some really hard work. For the non, this may mean levels of groundedness, forbearance, self-care, honesty, self-advocacy, forgiveness, curiosity, and emotional maturity that are a real stretch for any human. This sort of growth requires letting go of "that which no longer serves you" and therefore is scary.

Another possibility is the counseling reinforces the unhealthy marriage dynamic. We have seen our spouse fool us and others and we know there’s a possibility they will fool the therapist too. Of course we are terrified to seek help when we know there’s a chance it will reinforce the abuse! A good counselor will not let this happen, but there is no guarantee.

A third possibility is you are thinking about leaving the relationship and you want an outside opinion. I wonder if it would be best to be upfront with the therapist about this (maybe with your spouse not present)?

[Gerda]

I did marriage counseling with my husband from last summer until just after Christmas.

I could tell the MC was trying very hard to be "fair" and equally talk about what both of us needed to improve on. However, while my husband really liked it whenever the MC was critical of something I was doing, he got really defensive about anything she said he might be doing wrong.

I also got really afraid of saying much during counseling sessions, because my husband would get into a rage right afterwards about something or another I said that he thought made him look bad. There were a couple of times I got a little worried that he was going to become violent after a counseling session.

Finally, during one session, he actually lost his temper right there in front of the counselor and stormed out. That was actually very validating because the counselor got to actually see firsthand what I had been trying to describe to her.

She gave us homework assignments, but he didn't do most of them. He didn't take most of her advice seriously or really try most of the techniques she told us about.

The counselor gave us an ultimatum that we both needed to be in individual therapy or else she would stop doing marriage counseling. She gave us until Christmas to do it. I got an individual therapist. My husband didn't. He used the excuse that he couldn't afford it. Now it's just me in individual therapy.

So that's my experience with marriage counseling. The value I got out of it was that it removed any lingering hope I had that my husband might change. I had hoped that if we got an outside "expert" involved, he'd change some of his behavior, but no. He just concluded our counselor was a "stupid b*tch" who doesn't know what she's talking about.

For me it did turn out to be that last ditch "at least I tried everything" strategy. And I think that, fortunately, our marriage counselor did see what was going on, at least after a while. But that's also when she started being "too hard" on him (in his opinion), and soon after that he quit.

[PeteWitsend]

...
I also got really afraid of saying much during counseling sessions, because my husband would get into a rage right afterwards about something or another I said that he thought made him look bad. There were a couple of times I got a little worried that he was going to become violent after a counseling session.

Finally, during one session, he actually lost his temper right there in front of the counselor and stormed out. That was actually very validating because the counselor got to actually see firsthand what I had been trying to describe to her.
...

I had a similar experience with MC; many - if not most - MCs are lousy and really just mail it in.  They'll recommend you read the "5 Love Languages" book and other nonsense like that.  But will tip toe around any larger issues to avoid appearing biased toward one side, even when it's justified.  And as long as you self-censor, and give the BPDer a "both of us have things to work on" excuse for their behavior, they'll continue to go.  But as soon as they feel forced to account for their behavior, they'll lose it and refuse to keep going. 

As someone put it to me once: MC is fine if the biggest issue in your relationship is poor communication between the two of you.  MC teaches better ways to approach discussions and issues. Stuff like... "Make requests, not demands" "avoid criticism" and "don't use 'I' statements"... but If there are larger issues going on - and if one partner is BPD, there are definitely larger issues going on! - then MC is an exercise in futility. 

[CravingPeace]

Thanks all! Yes PW . We did go years back. My wife was happy when I was being told what I could do to help, bit when my wife said "I shouldn't have to ask him for what I need or want he would just know if he loved me" the therapist called her up on it. She explained to my wife that I couldn't be a mind reader and she should have to communicate her needs. My wife shut down, refused to talk and that was that.

I wonder how this time will go.

[EyesUp]

my wife said "I shouldn't have to ask him for what I need or want he would just know if he loved me"

Thought experiment:  If that was true, it would work both ways, right?

It's uncanny how different people arrive at the same place...  I heard this more than once. Verbatim. However, not in therapy, or with an objective observer present.

While I didn't need a MC to tell me that's not how healthy relationships usually work, I was still at a loss for how to respond or process...  Validate feelings?  That didn't feel right either.  For me, this sort of intellectual/emotional imbalance helped to highlight what was happening and help me get some objectivity - and focus. 

It sounds like you have a rare MC that's willing to throw a flag on a foul play.

If the goal is to keep your W engaged in the MC process, you might encourage the MC to make sure to demonstrate some objectivity and overtly throw a flag on you, too.

[PeteWitsend]

"It's DIFFERENT when I do it" should be the BPD motto.

[PeteWitsend]

After the debacle of our very unprofessional 2nd MC, BPDxw let me pick the next counselor/therapist we'd see.  I followed the advice of the 1st MC we saw (we had moved and no longer lived  near him), and who BPDxw said she trusted.  His advice was find someone with a masters degree or better and who had been practicing at least 5 years.

So I found one near us and picked a woman.  I felt like I wanted a woman's perspective and also because our first 2 MC's were men, and BPDxw once had said something in passing to me that she felt men were easier for her to charm or manipulate.  whatever.

Well... the 3rd MC was very professional, and called her out on the vague and manipulative language BPDxw was using to justify her behavior, similar to CravingPeace's example.

She "didn't feel like" I "loved [her] enough" and had to show I loved her enough before she'd stop accusing me of infidelity and constantly calling me out - in front of our daughter even - for wanting other women, and other unhinged claims.

When the MC asked her "what is enough?  how can he show he loves you 'enough'?  That's not something objective he can do."  BPDxw started yelling at the MC!  Then she stormed out and refused to go back, and told me to just divorce her already.

I did a few months later...

MC at least validated for me that I wasn't crazy... and also that there were real issues present I could not solve and BPDxw was not willing to acknowledge or work on.

[CravingPeace]

"It sounds like you have a rare MC that's willing to throw a flag on a foul play."

Eyesup I remember she was excellent unfortunately we moved away from the area.

"She "didn't feel like" I "loved [her] enough" and had to show I loved her enough before she'd stop accusing me of infidelity and constantly calling me out - in front of our daughter even - for wanting other women, and other unhinged claims."

PW LOL. I get you don't make me feel loved enough, or emotionally cared for. I ask how do I?. She says acts of service. I do acts of service and they are the wrong ones or dismissed as just logistics, or not frequent enough. Then "oh Actually I didn't need acts of service at that time I needed a hug". I point out she had told me not to touch her. She said you can hug me though, I just mean't don't touch me sexually. I point out that I was trying to put my arm around you when you told me to stop touching you.... Around and around on the merry-go-round we go.