School Counseling Check in for D12

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Your D is repeatedly asking to not go back to her mother's house, yet it seems it's being minimized.

There may be more going on than anyone is aware of. That was true in my home growing up. The straight A's somehow kept it off the radar as if somehow, a kid has to be acting up, or failing in school for people to consider home isn't anything but wonderful.

My concerns were dismissed too. "Of course your mother loves you" (no, she doesn't). "It can't be that bad, look how you kids turned out".

There was a family we knew that was very disordered. One parent was an alcoholic. The house was a mess. The kids sometimes didn't get fed. They wouldn't say a word about it. The family secret. The kids were top students.

Nobody had a clue what happens when alone with my BPD mother. BPD mother can "hold it together" in front of other people. Even now, as adults, we kids are still a bit afraid of her.

This isn't about internet and chores. Teen agers can be moody over chores but saying they don't want to see or speak to a parent repeatedly - especially if it's known that the parent has a disorder -and the child is a straight A student at school? This is not likely due to not wanting rules or chores.

[Notwendy]

Your D is repeatedly asking to not go back to her mother's house, yet it seems it's being minimized.

There may be more going on than anyone is aware of. That was true in my home growing up. The straight A's somehow kept it off the radar as if somehow, a kid has to be acting up, or failing in school for people to consider home isn't anything but wonderful.

My concerns were dismissed too. "Of course your mother loves you" (no, she doesn't). "It can't be that bad, look how you kids turned out".

There was a family we knew that was very disordered. One parent was an alcoholic. The house was a mess. The kids sometimes didn't get fed. They wouldn't say a word about it. The family secret. The kids were top students.

Nobody had a clue what happens when alone with my BPD mother. BPD mother can "hold it together" in front of other people. Even now, as adults, we kids are still a bit afraid of her.

This isn't about internet and chores. Teen agers can be moody over chores but saying they don't want to see or speak to a parent repeatedly - especially if it's known that the parent has a disorder -and the child is a straight A student at school? This is not likely due to not wanting rules or chores.

[Turkish]

Not about the internet or chores, you're right. I'm letting mom get into my head.

D told me this morning that she doesn't want to go back until next month. I don't think mommy will argue this. It precludes me going in early to work a few times per week as I normally do, but it's not a requirement. I can WFH early mornings same as when I have them for school. I've only been going onsite for 4-5 hrs/day anyway the days I've had them since D no longer likes after school. That wouldn't fly in my previous role.

[ForeverDad]

I agree with Notwendy, there's more to this than chores, perhaps even that her time for homework is sabotaged.  Whatever else is triggering this, D12 craves the normalcy and sense of safety etc at your home.  She's also of an age you can increasingly share about things that can be indicators or mental health issues, as they apply to her mother's behaviors and distorted perceptions.

My schools didn't have after school, so I used daycare.  Daycare informed me they accommodated children only until age 12 which coincided with him entering middle school.

[Notwendy]

she clearly wants a less difficult and more appreciated home life. 

I wouldn't even put it in terms of less difficult. This is not a student who is detered by something difficult. She aims for straight A's.

If I were to describe it- I'd say not toxic, not chaotic, and not abusive.

My relationship with my mother has not changed much since my teens. A difference is that as an adult, I am better equiped to manage it. But the ongoing element is her BPD which influences how she thinks and feels and her capacity to relate to people. Due to her BPD, she is emotionally and verbally abusive.

If you, Turkish, don't want to live with your ex or be married to her- then why would your D feel any diffferent about it than you do?

You are an adult though, and since you share parenting- you are in some kind of relationship with her and are managing that. You are decent to her, you do your best to stay on cordial terms with her and do your part. But you aren't in the same house with her 24/7 because you don't want to be.

I also have a relationship with my mother- I respect that she is my mother. I treat her kindly. She is elderly and I do what I can to assist her. But I also have to have boundaries with her. I didn't have that choice as a teen, and your D may not have the choice to not live with her mother at all depending on the custody arrangement. What your D is expressing is her own boundaries "I am not comfortable around this person" and people ignore that because they can't fathom someone feeling that way about their own mother, but she's not comfortable at least she will get some reprieve from it by staying with you more. She may have a different relationship with her mother later but for now, she can only be 12.

[Turkish]

I tried to show D that video, and D didn't like it. "It'sfrom mommy!" I asked her, "what if it wasn't from mommy?" She replied, "I still wouldn't like it." " why?"

"Because it's weird!"

"I agree."

I've seen her send similar things to S14, but he ignores them. That the kids pick up on it is interesting. I get that mommy was enmeshed by her mom and her dad was either absent, cheating or abusive. It's like she's trying too hard rather than being herself.

[Turkish]

I ready for the I told you Sos...

Met for brunch, D was offstandish at first. Mommy commented, "what are those dark spots in your eyes? You only have them when you come back from Daddy's." There are no dark spots. She's insane.

Brunch turned better when mom asked D about their planned trip to Japan at some point. (parenting by bribery?). D12, a talker, gushed for half an hour about visiting Japan, customs, food and all that they'd do. Brunch was fine. We got Gelato after then said our goodbyes. D is OK being picked up by mom tomorrow. She did ask me to buy D shoes as her black shoes had a rip. I had to look closely to see. No problem, we split shoe costs. Those things aren't in my radar unless they're obvious, I'm a dude, so sue me.

When we got home, she sent me an email (she knows that the kids get into our phones. At least D who figured out our passwords. She said that this wasn't a criticism, but could I make sure that D dresses more nicely as her shirt was faded. No, it wasn't, it was a plain navy t-shirt. D alternates between dressing girly-girl and tomboyish. She had on nice blue jeans. She ended telling be to be careful how I communicate to the kids (this isn't the first time she's said that).

Maybe this was immature, but I responded:

OMG, this is one reason your daughter doesn't like you! And Communicate what? I'll help with her or you're on your own. I've been "talking her down" from her anger for a week and I'm not sure that I'm not invalidating her. Good luck.

[Pook075]

Maybe this was immature, but I responded:

I am always so proud of myself when I take the high road, and rough on myself when I don't.  But then I see someone here say something immature and I'm like, of course I understand why you said that.

I've had a similar situation lately with a kid mad at my ex, and I kind of smile when they're mad for the same reasons I used to be mad.  The old patterns just keep repeating and for me, it's honestly the best validation I've had. 

I replied though because I'm wondering what others think- when a kid has a recurring problem with the BPD ex/parent, do we get involved or stay away?  I've been staying quiet until very recently when I'd catch both side of the argument as a 3rd party.  Now I'm second guessing....maybe I should be saying something.  I'm really not sure. 

[Notwendy]

I've had a similar situation lately with a kid mad at my ex, and I kind of smile when they're mad for the same reasons I used to be mad. 

I replied though because I'm wondering what others think- when a kid has a recurring problem with the BPD ex/parent, do we get involved or stay away? 

Getting involved or not- It depends on the age of the child.

It makes sense that the issues are similar with a child. It's a relationship and BPD affects all relationships.

"Child has a problem with their mother" . If the issues with their mother are similar to the ones with you- and the mother has BPD, it's more likely it's the mother's problem not the child's.

On the child's part- is it a problem or is it that the child's boundaries are being violated and they aren't comfortable? Or is is that the child is being emotionally, verbally, or physically abused?

I heard that phrase many times "I have a problem with my mother" and to me, that meant I am the cause of the problem. BPD mother blamed me for any issues in the family. I believed that leaving home was the solution- that when I went to college, my parents would be happy. Of course that wasn't true but it didn't matter- the shame was already there.The cultural expectations are that we love our mothers but when our mothers are also verbally and emotionally abusive, that's complicated. Having a problem with our mothers feels like a failure.

My relationship with my mother has been a difficult one for me. I don't have a problem with my mother - it's with her behavior.  I don't generally wish to have relationships with people who continuously criticize me, lie, manipulate and say mean things, but this isn't any relationship. To me, it's designed by God and I need to do my best with it, even if my best efforts don't succeed. That doesn't mean I can't have boundaries with her due to her behavior.

So the assumed problem I had with my mother was that- as a teen, I had boundaries with abusive behavior,  and so it was my problem to fix by not having them, tolerating and enabing her behavior, and and being compliant with her and so I tried to do this-to be good enough for my mother so that my mother would be happy with me and solve that problem. But even with my best efforts, I couldn't achieve the kind of relationship I wished for.

So, if considering to intervene, consider is the intervention going to help your child learn about boundaries, and how to respectfully enforce them, to understand BPD behavior better, and to maintain their own self esteem- then yes, direct them to someone who can help them, like a counselor or therapist. Help them to learn to walk that line between respectful behavior with a parent and also respecting their boundaries- a line they may feel they are wobbling on.

But it it's to make them responsible for their mother's feelings, it could increase their sense of shame and failure and encourage co-dependent behavior.

[ForeverDad]

"Child has a problem with their mother" . If the issues with their mother are similar to the ones with you- and the mother has BPD, it's more likely it's the mother's problem not the child's.

On the child's part- is it a problem or is it that the child's boundaries are being violated and they aren't comfortable? Or is is that the child is being emotionally, verbally, or physically abused?

Also, what worked for the mother in the early years - control to the extent that the child is virtually an extension to parent's life, perceptions and varying dictates - fails as the child gradually matures and seeks personal autonomy and growing independence, a natural development an acting-out person can't address.

[kells76]

D told me this morning that she doesn't want to go back until next month. I don't think mommy will argue this. It precludes me going in early to work a few times per week as I normally do, but it's not a requirement. I can WFH early mornings same as when I have them for school. I've only been going onsite for 4-5 hrs/day anyway the days I've had them since D no longer likes after school. That wouldn't fly in my previous role.

If Mommy probably won't have a problem, and if you have schedule flexibility, then it seems like there is a way forward.

You can share with D12 that you're glad she felt like she could tell you what she thought and felt about the parenting time setup, that it's really important for parents to know that stuff. You listened to her feedback and can take it from here with Mommy, because setting the schedule is an adult job. You and Mommy will work out a new schedule for D12 to try for the next month, and at the end of the month, you'll check in with D12 to hear more of her thoughts and feelings.

Because both parents need to agree on the schedule, you can't guarantee that it will always look exactly like what D12 wants, but you can promise you will always make time to listen to her and will do your best to care about what she wants or help her through times that aren't what she wants.

Something to allow D12 to get back in her "kid" role and feel confident that you as Dad can cope with and interact with Mom. Plus reassurance that ultimately it is up to the adults to decide this stuff. It does seem like D12 might like having a concrete, set schedule, where she knows if she has to go to Mom's or not?

If/when you and Mommy agree (over email), maybe print out a hard copy of the "test" schedule for the next month and put it up on the fridge? "This is how it will look for May 17th to June 17th. On June 18th you and I will get some ice cream and I will listen to your thoughts on how it went".

[Turkish]

D12 was just picked up. She seems OK with it for now. I told her that I'm not going to come rescue her at night if they have problems, but I'll see her Wed. She also told me that spending the last Wed with me for a break was her suggestion and mommy agreed (I thought it was mom's suggestion). Again... she's the parent, so deal with it?

I told her that she had to go to after school tomorrow and Wednesday and she agreed if I picked her up from school Friday (mom's weekend) and mommy can pick her up from my house.

Re: the email...

Mom answered that she didn't know what I was talking about and said that she just wanted D dressed properly. D and I disagree with mommy apparently.

She texted me if I had D. I said yes as we went to get shoes as I said we would  Then a sarcastic text, "thanks for picking up [Son]." I replied that ipicked up D12 hours ago and that he never wants to be picked up. He likes hanging with his friends in after school.

I sent D out. I don't want to see her and I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Waiting for possible criticism on choice of shoes...