Is this a “SUCCESS” story? I think so, here’s why…

[SaltyDawg]

[Post 1 of 3]

Two years ago, I was mostly oblivious, more like ‘in denial,’ to the mental health issues within my immediate family, even though the symptoms have been there for over two decades with my wife who is taking medication for an on-label use of MDD (major depressive disorder) and an off label use of GAD (general anxiety disorder) and has told me she has both depression and anxiety.  Today, I am writing about the ‘progress’ since my wife and I have made since my introduction from my individual therapist at the time to BPD.


Two years ago, this May, and throughout the remainder of 2022 my wife exhibited the following major issues, traits, and/or symptoms of BPD that by no means is comprehensive:

1.  Attempted to take her life for the 6th (sixth) time in an attempt to manipulate my behaviors to serve her irrational emotional needs. 

2.  This was on top of at least several dozen threats to divorce me over seemingly simple reasons beyond my comprehension along with…

3. …irrational rages sparked by the slightest misperception of my behavior going from 0 to 100% rage in under a second that would lasting hours on end up to a few times per day in which she was literally yelling only inches away from my face in addition to…

4. …several episodes of domestic violence directed against me, (and one against our daughter too on her most recent (re)lapse this past January). 

5. She has accused me of having multiple affairs with our children’s playdate mothers, and a licensed counselor in good standing. 

6. My wife on several occasions has accused me of abusing our children with no basis (according to a LCSW who was formerly CPS). 

7. She has accused me of stealing money from her - this is the only accusation that is partly true, and this was in direct response to her actions where I siphoned $5k off of my income before she even saw it as a potential retainer fee if she followed through on any one of her multiple divorce threats.

8. Yet, prior to her knowledge of the retainer fee, she was micromanaging my spending to the point where I was scrutinized spending less than $5 for repair parts to fix something that had broken in the home, and I was not allowed to spend money on myself, yet she could impulsively give her girlfriend (favorite person) a $11,000 gift to buy a replacement car as she was going through a divorce of her own and other friends too to a lesser extent spending hundreds at a time, but I couldn’t.

9. Had other impulsive behaviors such as binge eating (frequent), binge drinking (infrequent), excessive speeding, excessively volunteering without thinking of the time commitment or impact to the family, etc.. 

10. She claimed to me and others that I did nothing in support of the marriage and/or our family; however, I was actually doing more, at the time, than any other person that I knew of.  All 168 hours of the week were micromanaged by my wife into acts of service for her, and I still supposedly did nothing, when every waking hour and minute was dedicated to serving her except for sleeping, eating, and personal hygiene - and even that was micromanaged too.  I am now retired, and this also included work when I was working too. 

11. She had a need to know my whereabouts every single minute of every day along with the same information of our children, and her parents too, and would get very upset to the point of ‘losing-it’ if and when anyone missed a ‘check-in’ to the point of ‘losing it’.

12. She had countless number of splitting episodes, and when she returned back to baseline experienced dissociative amnesia where she would not remember treating me that way, thereby making a false narrative that I was continually being subjected to.

13. She also has told me that she cannot love me as she doesn't love herself, and I asked if she feels empty inside, and has indicated that it is a ‘persistent feeling of emptiness’.

14. Has extreme mood swings where one moment she was in a good mood, and the next an extreme rage, nothing in between.

15. Myself, and both of our children, would get out of her way when she even remotely indicated she was in a neutral and/or negative mood - everyone was walking on land-mines and hand-grenades as we did not know the next time my wife, their mother would ‘explode’ with rage.


It is now two years later, and a lot has changed, with the most recent change happening just a few weeks ago that has given me hope that she is now fully SELF-aware of each and every single symptom of BPD.  I too have changed immensely, as once I learned of BPD from my psychologist my heart sank as the chances of her getting to the point that I have seen this year was next to none, including what moderator here told me a couple years ago in a PM most do not see significant improvement in their pwBPD as they are not ‘self-aware’ that they have any issues. 

Once I found out about BPD, I first looked at my own contributions to the dynamic before expanding on how to deal with my wife’s symptoms for the betterment of the family - I took almost 90 days to do this with my psychologist.

As I just lost my ability to make a living wage as I had a career ending injury with my knee, so if my wife were to follow through with a divorce, I would never be able to recover financially - so I had additional motivation to ‘make it work’ as I still loved my wife dearly in spite of the terrible treatment that I allowed myself to subjected to from her.  Additionally, my wife had cultivated the appearance of being the 'perfect church lady,' and I was the 'deadbeat sailor.'  She was a stay-at-home mother, while at the time I was the primary 6-figure wage earner ever since we were married.  Our matchmaker’s (mutual family friend for me, and a former boss for my wife) spouse is a family court judge who gave my wife advice through these hard times based exclusively on my wife’s false narrative which she believed in.  My wife is also a CPA and has handled hundreds of millions for big names in real estate and knows how to manipulate finances quite well. 

Needless to say, everything was stacked against me if she were to follow through with a divorce.  Worst case scenario I would lose at least 75%-90% of the joint assets and not have custody of our children.  Best case, I would have about ⅓ of the assets, and perhaps weekend visits.  I was and still am primarily motivated for the well being of our children, and to preserve the finances necessary for their well being.  As I had everything to lose, and very little to gain by allowing my wife to follow-through on her threats, which I believed wholeheartedly at the time she was very serious about, I was ALSO thinking that “FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION” for my specific situation, even though the statistics indicated it more than likely would be a failure if and when she decided to file for divorce.  I was in a seemingly impossible situation of being a martyr in the relationship in order to protect our children with a woman who has described herself as a ‘lunatic’ and a ‘monster’ to me and did not love me anymore.

Due  to our children’s ages, and the damage that had already been done, time was of the essence as our son is at the critical age, and our daughter has just passed through the critical age where severe mental health issues could manifest (such as her AN - Anorexia Nervosa), I could not naturally let things progress as it could get worse, so I took it upon myself to first learn what BPD was, the symptoms, the treatments, combined with the tools of my individual therapists, and the couple’s therapist who fired us when she realized I was ‘maybe’ correct and gave me a strategy to move forward after this therapist realized that she was being duped by my wife’s very believable false narrative that my wife firmly believed in over 2-1/2 years in.

Up until a few weeks ago, I was absolutely desperate to make it work and would try just about anything to make it work out for the benefit of our children’s mental health as my primary goal as they had no choice in the matter of being in such a dysfunctional family unit, with a secondary goal of helping my wife in order to be a better parent to our children.


UPDATE ON MY PRIMARY GOAL - Our Children’s Welfare…

Both of our children are doing much, much better, while two years ago our daughter was in remission and was very worried that she would lapse or relapse.  I can now comfortably say I have no worries about her AN, and is excelling at school (top of her class) and has a boyfriend, and has been smiling a lot for the past 9 months, something that was notably absent for many years since she was a toddler under my care.

Our son is doing much better as well.  Once I let my son’s therapist know of her colleague’s (my psychologist who is at the same practice) suspicions of BPD, she was able to accomplish more in two months with him that she had in the previous two years with him, while our son still has some issues, these are becoming less and less and we have a strategy to address them as we are hoping he will ‘outgrow’ them and not become a cluster “B” himself as he already had enough symptoms be a borderline as of a year ago.  My wife attributed his sudden improvement to ‘maturing’ which may have been part of it; however, I suspect knowledge of how homelife really went was really the impetus behind his dramatic improvement with my son’s therapist.

Both of our children are building strong friendships outside of the home.  Both are laughing, and cutting up like children ought to be, and for the most part are no longer living ‘in fear’ day to day.


UPDATE ON THE SECONDARY GOAL - My wife has become mostly self-aware and continues to address her issues….

Based on what I have read and observed, in order for a pwBPD to recover they must first and foremost be self-aware in some meaningful capacity of what is going on.  My pwBPD must be willing to fix and address their issues, and it must be their idea to do so on their terms.  pwBPD must have the discipline to follow through with an excellent moral compass with meaningful therapy.

Once I realized this, I had to figure out a way for my wife to become self-aware as that would be the only way for her to change.  At the time, from her perspective I was the source of all of her issues, and I was to blame for everything bad in her life - so this could not come directly from me.

I racked my brain for weeks on how to get this accomplished…  I eventually settled on an intervention of sorts where someone other than me would tell her of these issues.  Something similar was suggested to me by one of the top leading experts in the field who later deleted their post on facebook who basically said using an analogy back in the 1940’s a terminally ill patient was not told of their diagnosis as they couldn’t [mentally] handle it, and this leading expert went on to tell me it was their opinion that a pwBPD should be told what they have so they can at least try to correct it - as you cannot correct something if you are not familiar with it.  This was very impactful to me, even though the official party line in the book that they wrote with another indicated that the partner should NOT share this information which is why I surmised this post was deleted a few weeks later.

My first attempt at an intervention was by approaching mutual friends/family who have witnessed her severe splitting behavior - this failed, they did not want to participate, even though they agreed on what they had seen (idolize - devalue - threaten to discard), one was a teaching nurse (married to a family court judge), the other my step brother who was ironically involved with a program to help veterans reconnect with their families.  He suggested I approach his friend who runs the program. I did, they did not accept partners who have done domestic violence situations - seemingly a dead end, but I did not give up.

My second attempt was to approach our first long term couple’s therapist since 2019 to August 2022, who indicated my wife was not BPD, in spite of botching the handling of my wife’s suicide attempt earlier that May by not getting her evaluated in a hospital setting.  However, in retrospective analysis, I believe that this therapist thought I was the one with BPD [through my wifes transference and projection where the therapist then did countertransference on me as well - a double mind f*** that really affected me negatively over the course of the 2½ years we were with her] as she was very adamant in getting me to admit to ‘speeding’ - one of the symptoms of BPD - a.k.a. reckless driving.  It wasn’t until my wife exhibited more symptoms ‘in session’ where this therapist ultimately fired us as her clients after my wife openly displayed and admitted to violent tendencies in the therapy sessions to the point of being reported to law enforcement.  When the therapist fired us, she gave me several parting gifts, including on how to move forward, suggested “maybe, just maybe” to my allegation of BPD, showed me my wife’s divorce threats were manipulative ‘bluffs’ by deliberately triggering her and encouraged me to directly voice my suspicions to my wife’s individual therapist, and encouraged my wife to allow this to happen.

My third attempt at an intervention was with her individual therapist.  I knew I only had one chance at getting this right.  My wife had left her journal out (and eventually voluntarily gave me permission to read it, but not at that time), and in an act of my desperation, I read through it, discerned all of the relative things to BPD she was already self-aware with, added a few additional painfully obvious behaviors our couple’s therapist who had just fired us had witnessed in session.  In order to accurately convey all of the issues my wife was painfully aware and was brought up as an observation in couple’s therapy I carefully wrote a summary of the ‘known’ issue, rehearsed it several time, as I wanted to make damn sure was communicated to her individual therapist without any error or doubt, and ran with a one page prepared statement summarizing the glaringly obvious issues that I was almost certain that her individual therapist already knew - I was simply connecting the dots to very obvious symptoms.  Initially this apparently failed from what I observed as I was told she did not have BPD [likely a move to protect my wife’s feelings], at least initially; however, I definitely feel it planted the seeds of truth that eventually paid off with significant and meaningful change and allowed the individual therapist to work meaningful change for my wife without calling it BPD or EUPD.

Meanwhile my fourth attempt at an intervention was with the new couple’s therapist who initially told me my wife does not have BPD.  However, I deliberately called attention to each symptom, by having my wife describe her behaviors, with very targeted questions I posed that revealed my wife’s true nature to the therapist.  There was some acknowledgement and validation towards me; however, I feel at the time I was largely being given lip service, even after an act of DV that my wife admitted to only minutes prior to a session in December 2022, until a few months later when there was an allegation of having an affair with a licensed counselor levied against me, followed up in a month’s time with a full cycle of “Devalue ⇒ Discard ⇒ Recycle ⇒ Idealization”.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[SaltyDawg]

[Post 2 of 3]

The couple’s therapist was certain my wife was genuine in her intent to ‘Discard’ me as she had apparently colluded with her individual therapist from the same practice, complete with a ‘safety plan’ my wife had expressed in the previous session.  This signaled to me she was planning on leaving, and when she did this in front of our couple’s therapist, I called my wife’s bluff.  My wife wanted me to leave the home and the children with her.  I pushed back, and said something along the lines of “you are free to go; however, I will not leave the children, nor will I allow you to take the children as I am concerned for their safety”.  The therapy session ended shortly after the therapist asked my wife “How do you feel about that?”.  The therapist was certain it was over for the relationship; however, I suspected it wouldn’t be…

…The next session was a few days later, and the therapist was exceptionally surprised to the point of being gobsmacked by seeing both of us in the following session where my wife was smiling and singing my praises on how good I was to her when I did next to nothing after the discard and she was begging to come back yet once again - my wife’s behaviors were a ‘textbook’ fit for symptom 2.  The look on the couple’s therapist’s face was absolutely priceless, and she had to validate her perception by asking me if my wife was accurately communicating her feelings of the situation as the therapist couldn’t believe what she was witnessing.  This was the turning point in the couple’s therapist's perception, as each new symptom that was revealed or reviewed, she took copious notes, and there was substantial and continuous but non-linear improvement (depending on my wife’s mood swing at the moment) from that moment forward.

Concurrently at the same time I have primarily been focused on my wife’s issues, and have learned human behavior by studying it, and then also going out in the ‘wild’ so to speak to various facebook groups and other areas too, when the textbooks and articles did not have the answers I was looking for and have passively observed and directly interacted with several hundred who have indicated that they have BPD and/or I suspected they had BPD.  The number of episodes declined rapidly for the next few months, where there was approximately one major episode a month (with several minor ones) and even a few months without any major episodes in August, October-December of 2023, and again February to the present of this year = one major episode since September 2023.

This major episodic lapse occurred in January of this year, and it was directed against our daughter, not me, as I had established firm boundaries with consequences starting in October/November of 2022.  If the boundaries were violated I would follow through on natural consequences to her actions instead of previously enabling these kinds of behaviors.  I also changed my communication styles to ones that have a lot of empathy and validation.  As I was being seen in a better light (primarily due to my shift in communication styles) - my wife’s target of blame shifted temporarily from me to our daughter when she mis-perceived our daughter’s actions which triggered her. 

While I was very disappointed in the (re)lapse - there was a net positive outcome in which there was a ‘learning moment’ which allowed my wife to start learning of the last and most difficult symptom to become self-aware on - commonly called ‘splitting,’ in my particular situation is the combination of the following symptoms of BPD - “Temporary paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms triggered by stress” combined with the “Rapid changes in mood, lasting usually only a few hours and rarely more than a few days” symptom.  This was the first time I saw her using the ‘fact checking’ tool to discern what is real and was not based on her false narrative generated in her head by her real feelings.  It was amazing to watch the start of this process where my wife could actually process in real time when she was having an episode.

While there have been some minor episodes since then; however, these too, as a natural consequence are becoming less and less frequent as well.  I did not want to jump the gun and ask if this was a success at that time, as I know the definition of success needs verifiable results of being symptom free over a period of at least two consecutive months to a couple of years according to articles on the NIH.gov website.

Now I am going to fast forward to today, and will revisit each of the points I previously made, and how they have changed in the past two years…

1. No new suicide attempts since May 2022, this symptom is now in full remission. Our therapist set a boundary for us, I am to call 911 the next time if and when this happens.  The ‘nuclear option’ will be implemented if this were to ever happen again.  I strongly suspect this will not happen, as all of her suicide attempts/gestures were manipulative in nature when she more often than not exclaimed “you are not supposed to behave this way”.  However, it is not my job to determine if it is manipulation or if it is a genuine attempt - 911 is the only logical response to this behavior.


2. The most recent divorce threat / separation occurred March 16/17, 2023 as witnessed by our couples’ therapist in session.  As previously stated, I believe that this is the one event that convinced our couple’s therapist she indeed has EUPD/BPD as our therapist started to take copious amounts of notes whenever my wife displayed and/or accurately described a symptom of BPD/EUPD while in a therapy session.  While there was no verbal communication, there were an abundance of non-verbals that indicated this was indeed the case from our couple’s therapist.


3. The ‘Irrational rages sparked by the slightest misperception going from 0 to 100% rage in under a second that would last hours on end up to a few times per day in which she was literally yelling only inches away from my face’ stopped abruptly in November 2022.  My wife also profusely apologized for the first time ever for doing this to me. 

She also asked me if I had recorded any of her episodes, and I indicated that I did.  She also freaked out when she learned about this and made me promise not to ‘take away the children’ from her and she was very fixated on this, and I had never mentioned taking away the children.  I reassured her that my intentions and goal was for her to become self-aware of her behaviors so she can address them, nothing more, nothing less.  At the time I thought it was an odd question; however, I surmised she had received information from somewhere else that this could happen if any recordings of this nature would surface.  After things settled down, I did check our phone records (the account is in my name) and saw that she had a lengthy phone call with the aforementioned family court judge only 2 days prior to her first apology.  Circumstantial evidence would seem to suggest she was read the RIOT act by the judge where she was told she might lose the children.  This is the point that I sensed where my wife aggressively changed her outlook, and started to take her behavioral issues seriously for the first time in our relationship.


4. In 2022 my wife enacted several episodes of domestic violence or projection of violence directed against me, ending in December 2022 with one (re)lapse against our daughter this past January 2024.  The one in December 2022 was done impulsively by her, and she immediately recognized it and apologized for it.  In response to the most recent incident earlier this year, I expanded the boundary of ‘no violence’ to include family members, and anything on the property including pets, this kind of behavior is not to be tolerated.

 
5.  With respect to where my wife has accused me of having multiple affairs with our children’s playdate mothers, and a licensed counselor.  My wife has apologized for making these baseless accusations and explained in her very dysregulated reasoning on how she came to these conclusions - I shared them with my own therapist (I had my wife's written copy) and my therapist further validated the likelihood of BPD and kept me focused on addressing her issues while things were initially improving.

 
6. My wife on several occasions has accused me of abusing our children.  This is yet another example where my wife has let her exaggerated feelings define false facts.  Around June of 2023, I asked my wife to repeat a threat she had made to me earlier in the week in front of our therapist, who is a former CPS LCSW as I no longer wanted her to use this as a coercive manipulation tactic of blackmail. 

I asked my wife to expand it to all of the details in her memory and she described the incident in detail.  I then briefly countered with something along the lines of “I was disciplining our son by forcefully removing him by the hand, with the minimum force needed of loosely by firmly encircling my index finger and thumb around his wrist from the cafeteria in the 1st grade who was acting up in a school assembly in front of the principal and several teachers, all of whom are mandated reporters.  While the commotion did draw their attention and this was very embarrassing, no report was made, and no comments were given, as I feel that it did not rise to the level of abuse”  The therapist agreed, and explained to my wife that she agreed with my assessment, and since this session there have been no additional threats made towards me by my wife.


7. She has accused me of stealing money from her (this is the only accusation that is partly true, and this was in direct response to her actions where I siphoned $5k off of my own income before she even saw it as a potential retainer fee if she followed through on any one of her multiple divorce threats).

I make no apologies for planning an appropriate response to what I perceived at the time to be a genuine threat of divorce.  While my wife never followed through on it; however, it was real to me nonetheless.  I did explain my reasoning for doing this, apologized for it, and returned that money.  I was then asked if there was any other money, and I indicated in the affirmative as part of a safety plan to leave for several days if she were to get worse where the physical safety of our children and myself would be in danger.  I indicated this money would not be returned until I felt safe for a while.

After my apology, there have been no more accusations of this nature.


8. My wife no longer micromanages me on my spending.  I have always been ‘frugal’ and continue to be.  My wife also has undiagnosed OCPD (most pwBPD have comorbidities), and one of the symptoms is miserly spending which is offset with her impulsive spending for her favorite person at the moment.

While I never mentioned OCPD to her or our therapists [I have to my own individual therapist], I think the T’s recognized it, as I also pointed out symptoms that were manifested or admitted to in sessions.  My wife has shifted from being miserly to frugal as her baseline, with moderate impulsive spending from time to time, and is no longer at a disordered level, and would be comparable with other couples spending patterns.  This is no longer a concern for me when I was able to gently manipulate her favorite person into not accepting additional monies from us by finding a better alternative where she could get a loan and the favorite person felt better about this too.

Her impulsive spending shifting to frugal spending was addressed in couple’s therapy this past September and is no longer an issue in our relationship.


9. She has had other impulsive behaviors such as binge eating (frequent), binge drinking (infrequent), excessive speeding, excessively volunteering without thinking of the time commitment or impact consequences to the family, and so forth. 

Excessive needless workaholism is another severe disordered OCPD symptom which can also be impulsive in nature.  This too has been addressed in therapy, took several months, actually the better part of a year; however, this too is no longer at disordered levels.  She has been able to throttle back to more reasonable levels of volunteerism within the past three months that does not adversely affect family life and/or friendships.

Excessive speeding (reckless driving) is no longer an issue even though I did see a little bit of it this past weekend - it is no where like it was before where she justified this in order to get more done.

Binge drinking is not an issue.

Binge eating is still present - I also have binge eating - so I really cannot enact a boundary on this, and I can ‘accept’ this symptom as I too have it and this would be hypocrisy on my part.  This is one of the few issues that have not seen our full attention inside or outside of therapy.  This is the only impulsive behavior that remains, and the symptoms require 2 or more impulsive behaviors - so this symptom also is in remission in spite of this portion still being present.


10. She claimed to me and others that I did nothing in support of the marriage; however, I was actually doing more, at the time, than any other person that I knew of.  All 168 hours of the week were micromanaged by my wife, and I still supposedly did nothing, when every waking hour and minute was dedicated to serving her except for sleeping, eating, and personal hygiene, and even this was micromanaged too.  I am now retired, and this also included work when I was working as well.

In order to get my life back from being overly micromanaged, I had to set firm boundaries on what I was and wasn’t willing to do for the relationship and I learned how to use the word “NO” when interacting with my wife.  My therapist did not suggest for me to do this; however, she understood my reasoning behind it, and my T described it as ‘push-pull’ dynamic albeit in a different positive manner than how a borderline uses the ‘push-pull’ in a relationship.

I complained bitterly to the couple’s therapist about the lack of reciprocity, and against the couple’s therapists advise I indicated I would be going to a ‘transactional’ model for the time being that would be based on units of time until some reasonable amount of parity is reached as I would no longer tolerate a 99:1 to 135:1 (measured on two different weeks about a year apart a year ago).  In response to such a lopsided reciprocity arrangement which ideally should be close to 1:1 and at most a 60:40 ratio - in order to encourage reciprocity I deliberately withheld giving my wife additional attention when she did not give me any attention.  If my wife gave me 2 hours of my love languages / emotional needs, I would give her no less than 2 back, it was no longer unconditional and unlimited attempting to meet my wife’s demands on entitlement.

What I have done sounds very counterintuitive; however, it is exceptionally effective as I knew my wife wanted to keep the relationship alive as she knows she has a good thing with me especially when I pulled back my seemingly endless acts of service for her.  For the past few months, my wife has dramatically increased her level of meeting my emotional needs and speaking my love languages, and I in turn have also naturally and dramatically increased mine towards her as well.  While the forced transactional model was needed to correct the disparity in our respective efforts initially - I am in the process of shifting back to a more emotionally healthy reciprocity model that comes naturally with a healthy relationship and I feel that my wife is ‘learning’ to do this as well.

[SaltyDawg]

[Part 3 of 3]

11. My wife still has a need to know my whereabouts every single minute of every day along with the same information of our children, and her parents too.  However, her response to this need has gotten better, so she no longer freaks out - she is able to stay emotionally regulated, and is able to articulate her needs of communication with our daughter and son on their whereabouts. 

I have also been working with my wife to reassure her that our D17 is in good hands with her boyfriend (an Eagle Scout) and our D17 wants her freedom and will be 18 later on this year.  I  am also encouraging her to give our D17 more age-appropriate liberties as she transitions to a young adult, and I have reminded her that she has called us when an 18-wheeler rear ended her and nearly ran her off the road, and she is doing all of the ‘right things’.

This is still a ‘work in progress’; however, it is no longer at disordered levels, and our daughter no longer threatens to go ‘no contact’ once she turns 18 which used to upset my wife to no end and me too even though I understood her reasoning.


12. I am very happy to report my wife is now ‘self-aware’ of her splitting episodes as of two weeks ago when she apologized for behavior very similar to splitting in a couple’s session.  I saw the first evidence of her exploring to differentiate reality from false feelings back in January when she split severely on our daughter with a full borderline episode where I observed she was actively using the ‘fact checking tool’ for the first time in a very extreme example.

This was the most difficult behavior for her to become self-aware of, as it involves disassociation where she cannot genuinely remember what she did while she is stressed out.  In our couple’s session, two weeks ago, she apologized for “when I get mad at you, I think you are doing some really bad stuff that I now know is an exaggeration of what is really going on” - this showed me that she understood she was doing this to me - in essence her emotions were painting me black.  She agreed to communicate with me, and to ask me if I am really feeling that way she thinks I am feeling, and if it is my intention to deliberately piss her off or something else.


13. I previously indicated that “She also has told me that she cannot love me as she doesn't love herself, and I asked if she feels empty inside, and has indicated that it is a ‘persistent feeling of emptiness’.”

I feel that this may still be true; however, I am unsure.  That said, the circumstantial evidence would point to this naturally moderating as she now has more smiles on her face, and seems to be enjoying life a lot more as her relationship with me and our children have all become exponentially better with her better behaviors - a very good cycle of reinforcement of positive outcomes with positive behaviors to be in.


14. Her mood swings are still there, and the feelings are still exaggerated; however, their arguments and the articulation of her feelings are no longer irrational and escape any logic.  There is now logic, and there is also rational thought processes when she is heated, even though they are at an elevated temperature in comparison to a neurotypical person - I can work with this and accept this level of conflict as I suspect this too will naturally moderate to more civilized levels as other aspects of our relationship continues to improve.


15. Myself, and both of our children, ‘still’ get out of her way when she even remotely indicated she is shifting into a negative mood - everyone still is walking on fewer eggshells; however, we no longer fear she will explode like nitroglycerin with one wrong move.  However, we are no longer cowering at the first sign of danger.  She has still had several minor episodes since the major one in January.  I feel with time these too will continue to moderate to a more ‘normal’ level of conflict for a family with teenagers, and when comparing it to some of the other more volatile families we know it is currently at a similar level to those.  We are currently in a gray area between disordered and ordered on this.




Of course I have only touched upon the major issues as there are thousands of minor ones too that have improved.  My wife has reconnected to me on many levels of emotional as well as physical intimacy which has been disconnected for so long.  From what I have recently experienced in the past few months - this is nothing short of a miracle in what has happened with my wife and children - my family is no longer completely dysfunctional anymore.

I cannot attribute the change to any one thing; however, my wife has done the most amount of change that took only a fraction of the time I have expended which is over 4000 hours of reading, hanging out on forums like this one, therapy, CoDA meetings, NAMI meetings, praying, meditating on trying and experimenting with strategies ‘outside of the box’ which involved trial and error, etc. in order to devise and perfect strategies to nudge my wife into becoming self-aware enough to enact meaningful change for the betterment of herself and in turn for our children and me to.  I cannot fix her, only she can do that; however, I can lovingly ‘nudge’ her in a direction so she could do this through my enacting meaningful, but fair and firm boundaries combined with a significant change in the way I communicated with her, and used active listening with her and have interacted with other borderlines to understand their needs better so I can navigate through the rough seas of volatile emotions, and learn methods on calming these seas to enact meaningful change.

It is not all roses.  There are still some serious issues remaining that need to be addressed.  I cannot change the emotional damage done to our children; however, I am maximizing the chances no more damage is done, and what damage that has been done can be reversed as much as practical/possible. 

Our daughter’s boyfriend’s mother has similar behavior issues my wife had two years ago - both my D17 and her boyfriend are likely codependent people-pleasing caregivers in a mostly healthy kind of way and my D17 is giving him many emotional tools on how to handle his mother as both of them can understand fully what the other has gone through - in this respect I envy my D17 and her boyfriend’s relationship as she has someone who knows what she has gone through.  It could be much worse, she could have a Cluster-B boyfriend, or be a cluster B herself - fortunately she is not.  She has the tools from her own mental illness journey when she was a full blown AN, and the tools she learned back then is being put to good use now.

Our S12, for a while, was ODD, until therapy reversed most of this and as of a year ago had 6 of the symptoms of BPD himself.  He still has abandonment issues that have been moderating as we are in the process of weaning him off certain behaviors like sleeping with mom, and encouraging sleepovers at playdates homes.  He still has an explosive anger like his mom had but not the disassociation that my wife had, that too has been moderating.  He still has mood swings that can be exacerbated with hunger, anger, and tiredness.  For the positives, he is also extremely empathetic, kind, and a caregiver and much more understanding of adversity than most children in his peer group. 

My relationship with my wife has taken off in the past two months.  We are actually finally at the ‘starting line’ to start meaningful couple’s therapy with each other.  It’s rough, it is going to be challenging, and considering what both of us have gone through I believe the relationship will continue to transform for the better moving forward into the future and eventually flourish.  …and for those wondering about physical intimacy, yes, that is back too in addition to the emotional intimacy.

I am also under no illusion that my wife is currently in ‘remission’ and the outward symptoms can return full strength at a moment’s like they did in January only to bounce back even to higher levels of self-awareness.  I have learned that progress is not linear, there may still be setbacks, as there have been many in the past two years.  I continue to have hope, and the will to make this work.  My wife also has gotten the will for herself, to make this work out too.  Our children have had to adapt to a most toxic and dysfunctional family dynamic and are learning to adapt to a healthier family dynamic similar, yet unique, to the family dynamics that they also have observed with their friends.

In light of recent positive development, I will not lift my foot from the accelerator, as we are no longer spinning our wheels in place, but are moving forward gaining momentum.

As I have not read any similar stories here.  My story for the BPD aware portion has not used DBT therapy (ironically we had eclectic therapy which had heavy influence of DBT therapy prior to her most recent suicide attempt/gesture by our first couple’s therapist), nor has there been a formal diagnosis, even though I have requested a formal evaluation.

However, my wife has now openly admitted to having all 9 symptoms at one point or another in front of our couple’s therapist - in effect she has self-diagnosed, yet she refuses to connect the dots of each symptom.  Also my individual therapist, who trains other therapists, agrees with my assessment.    I am not questioning the lack of labeling or my wife’s refusal to connect the dots, as the end result is what counts, and that is what's happening.

To summarize all visible symptoms of BPD, except binge eating is currently in remission at disordered levels.  The mood swings are still there, but not at disordered levels.  Previously, two years ago, all symptoms were present at disordered levels except ‘self mutilation’; however, suicidal gestures were part of that symptom group.  My wife has come a long way.  Concurrently her symptoms of comorbid OCPD also have moderated for the most part to being in remission as well with the most damaging ones being addressed (subject for a different post).  Depending on which NIH.gov study is referenced the comorbidity rate of OCPD and BPD range from 5% to 50% depending on the study reviewed.  When brainstorming ideas on how to nudge my wife into becoming self-aware, I did take advantage of her OCPD symptoms to help her realize her more damaging BPD symptoms.  I can manage and accept her with the remaining symptoms and traits of OCPD.  I do look forward to possible additional improvement, and I will be one happy camper if there is no regression at this point in time.

If anyone has any additional suggestions for me to continue to help the remission stay in remission - I am here to learn from what you have learned, just as I am sharing my experience with you so you can learn what I have done right, and I am also willing to share what I have done wrong as well.

I feel it was a combination of things, me changing the way I communicate with excessive validation and empathy and focusing on the positive and setting firm fair boundaries was part of the solution.  Another part was that she was read the RIOT act by a friend’s spouse who is also a family court judge about losing her children - this is probably my wife’s low point in her recovery journey where she started to make a conscious effort to make things better.  Another part was looping in all of the the therapists, both the good ones and not-so-good ones into my suspicions of BPD, and not giving up by introducing my wife’s symptoms in session after session after session mostly by having her talk about them with steering questions towards my wife repeatedly reflect the negative behaviors until they were adequately addressed by her inside of therapy.  I also learned how to ‘influence’ my wife in nudging her to do the right thing for her through a multitude of ways that exceeded the ones by an order of magnitude as described in the “Stop Caretaking” book by M Fjelsted, and allowed her to come up with the solution to her own issues by allowing her to see her reflection as I wanted her to see them through the lens of her personality that enabled her to get the motivation to correct what she saw in herself from my perspective.  As much as I don’t want to admit my faults, my wife also did this where she could back to me, and I too changed my ways for the better, even though it was at a very unfair 90/10 split where she did 90% of the changing.

One last thing, I want to give credit to my higher power, as I have also grown spiritually as well, as there were inexplicable coincidences more often than not immediately after I prayed about it.  People from all walks of life have influenced this journey in major ways, a Jewish therapist, a Shia Muslim psychologist, a counselor who was also an ordained minister and spiritual coach, a catholic therapist, agnostics, atheists, Mormon, Cult, etc. in addition to those I have interacted here -  most everyone has had major and minor contributions that I have learned from.  Thank You each and everyone for listening and sharing and the higher power allowing me to see the invaluable resource each and everyone has contributed to my wife's seemingly miraculous healing.

Take care with self care.

SaltyDawg

[Chief Drizzt]

Thank you for sharing your story!  It was encouraging but it made realize I’ve got a long way to go with my own situation.

I’m currently trying to get my wife to recognize what is going without using the term BPD.  Instead I’m using the phrase “extreme emotionalism” in reference to her behaviors. So far she is denying it but I’m not going to give up as the goal is to get her into therapy specifically for this issue.

Thanks again - I’m glad thing progressing positively in your family.

[SaltyDawg]

I’m currently trying to get my wife to recognize what is going without using the term BPD.  Instead I’m using the phrase “extreme emotionalism” in reference to her behaviors. So far she is denying it but I’m not going to give up as the goal is to get her into therapy specifically for this issue.

Chief Drizzt,

   You're welcome.  Going into each couple's session without directly referring to BPD was difficult for me too.  I too had to use different terminology that meant the same thing.  I also had to call attention to specific traits/symptoms by having my wife describe her specific behavior, and I would ask my wife in front of the therapist pointed questions where she would.  I personally felt it was very important for my wife to become self-aware of an issue, so she could address it.  Her becoming aware of being physically violent was the easiest one and only took a few sessions.  Her becoming aware of stress induced disassociation was the most difficult one, and this took the better part of a year.

For example the word 'triggering' was very 'triggering' to my wife, so my individual therapist would frequently come up with alternative wording where I often was at a loss on how to address a specific issue, for the benefit of the couple's therapist when I needed to get a point across - I had to talk in a manner where my wife would understand me on one level, and the couple's therapist would understand on a different level.  So 'triggering' was substituted for 'being emotionally activated' until that too was 'banned' as being too 'triggering'.

It was quite difficult, as I first had to learn about BPD (and OCPD) before I could call attention to it in a meaningful way without coming out and being "Captain Obvious" - since my wife's false narrative was believable, initially I was working an uphill battle with her therapists getting them onboard too, until they witnessed it first hand or it was described within the therapy sessions by my wife's own words.  At least initially, I felt so defeated, as the only one who would validate my feelings was my own individual therapist.

My own individual therapist pretty much summed up my behavior which resulted in this positive outcome, as she had no logical explanation other than I "willed it" [to happen].

Circling back to your specific situation - if I were in your shoes [and I am not] - I would keep on trying different things until you find one that 'works' or at least 'seems to work' until you find something better.  And the one that works, is not necessarily intuitive, I will share some of my pre-story that might be relevant for you...

Since your stated goal is to get her into therapy - for me, at the beginning of the process I used a 'switch and bait' type strategy back in 2022 and prior to that part dumb luck in 2019.  Prior to 2019 around 2009, I tried to get my wife into couples therapy when she first stopped love bombing me and had become much more abusive to the point of being physically violent - I put my foot down and demanded we do couple's therapy as something was 'seriously wrong with us' to be this way, my wife agreed initially.  All but one of the half dozen couple's therapists were fired by my wife, and the one that didn't, focused 90% of the time in each of the sessions on my wife, until she 'retired' a few months in, effectively firing my wife - looking back, I wish that therapist didn't [give up on] dump us, as she was making real progress, but probably recognized the dynamic only a few weeks in (about two months).  I tried a few more therapists; however, they were all fired by my wife, and I eventually 'gave up' - fast forward a decade, our daughter was in a critical mental health crisis, was hospitalized for months heading towards death by starvation, and it was my wife, upon the advice of our daughter's nutritionist serendipitous advice that drug me into couple's therapy that I fully embraced - it was my wife's idea, and I was the blame for everything bad that was happening back in 2019.

Shifting gears, I am going to reflect back to you, what you are doing to your own wife... with a role reversal, which I find personally to be exceptionally insightful in understanding my own wife'a thought processes... this took me years to really figure it out with my own wife...

Imagine if you were in your wife's shoes, and your husband [you] told you that you were having "extreme emotionalism" - how would that make you feel?  Especially if you didn't think you were all that emotional in the first place?  Would you embrace what your husband was telling you to seek help, or would you think he is being crazy for thinking that, since you don't think it is true and be dismissive about your feelings and opinions since you do not think they are true and deliberately drag your feet to go into a therapy session where you husband would blame you for everything?

How would that make you feel?  What would you want to express to your 'husband', so he would stop labeling you with "extreme emotionalism"?

I would guess that didn't work too well, and you [your wife] would be pushing back on the 'extreme emotionalism' narrative that your husband [you] was talking about.

Can you see that as a possible perspective for her?  Since you know your wife the 'best' - if you put yourself in your wife's shoes, and was in denial about the emotionalism - perhaps focus on a different topic, that is much less provocative initially, that your wife knows she has issues with that isn't quite as impactful as 'extreme emotionalism'.  Maybe call attention to a small, but very obvious component, in my case it was yelling at the top of her lungs - this too can be met with a lot of resistance, as my wife literally has told me, when I pointed that out she literally yelled at me "I'm not yelling!"!  Or, come up with a different tactic for her to become self aware, an indirect way initially by validating her feelings.

Or, you can focus on yourself, and what you bring to the table, and let your wife beat you up, at least initially.  Encourage the couple's therapist to focus on you for the first several sessions, and let those areas improve for your wife - kind of a bait and switch, to get her hooked on the positives of being in therapy - kind of like a loss leader.  Eventually gradually shift the focus on to her, if this is done too fast it can backfire, and fail.  Perhaps move very slowly and introduce concepts one at a time.  In my experience our couple's therapist wanted to move too fast, and do many things at once, and my wife lost interest.

For me, at that time, my goal was similar to your, and I was there to keep my wife in therapy, even if it was being negative towards me, she was getting 'something meaningful' out of it.  It took years to shift her blame from focusing on me to focusing on herself as being at first a small part of the problem, and then as a bigger part of the problem, until it resulted in a suicide attempt and being reported for DV until she figured out she was the problem a few months later - this took more than 2-1/2 years with our first serious couple's therapy from 2019.  Perhaps, me being too complacent, too nice, and too naive for my wife to gain the trust of the therapist before I started to push back on my wife's false narrative was a significant component into my wife's self-awareness journey and was needed as a prerequisite before she could become self aware by realizing I wasn't the whole problem.

I might suggest trying to find something about therapy that your wife would enjoy doing [like highlighting your perceived issues] - throw her a bone to chew on, the only therapist back in 2009 my wife enjoyed being with back then did exactly that - that therapist dinged me on a comparatively minor issue at 10% of the time so my wife felt validated being in therapy; however, the therapist using good communication techniques (that I was oblivious to) with my wife to keep her engaged on much more meaningful topics - we had not progressed to far before she 'retired'.

Perhaps, you could brainstorm, and come up with a few ideas yourself on how to attract your wife into therapy and not push her into therapy?  It has to be her idea for it to work, as only she can fix herself.  What do you think?

[Chief Drizzt]

Hi SD-
 
I realize that my phrasing it as extreme emotionalism was definitely the wrong thing to do. It was taken as an attack - even though I told her I wasn’t saying it to attack her.  I listened to a pretty good podcast by Dr. Phil on BPD and he recommended taking a different approach that I am going to try.  He said that you should say something like - “I see that you are really depressed (anxious, hurt, etc). I think you owe it to yourself to get into therapy. You don’t deserve to live like this and getting into therapy might help you.”  I liked that and we’ll see how that goes.

We are currently in couples therapy but all we are really working on is communication (which I admit I need to help on). It’s been very helpful to me but weather or not my counselor has picked up on my wife’s BPD yet I don’t know. 

I’m really more focused on her getting individual therapy at this point.  I have a counselor I’ve been seeing for about a year but in all honesty I don’t think she understands BPD and often tells me that since she doesn’t have an official diagnosis I shouldn’t assume she has it.  She sounds much like your counselor.  Well - she meets all the 9 characteristics and I truly believe she has it. I’ve sometimes tried to talk myself out of believing it - and then another episode happens and I’m like - she’d definitely got it.

[SaltyDawg]

Chief,

I listened to a pretty good podcast by Dr. Phil on BPD and he recommended taking a different approach that I am going to try.  He said that you should say something like - “I see that you are really depressed (anxious, hurt, etc). I think you owe it to yourself to get into therapy. You don’t deserve to live like this and getting into therapy might help you.”  I liked that and we’ll see how that goes.

We are currently in couples therapy but all we are really working on is communication (which I admit I need to help on). It’s been very helpful to me but weather or not my counselor has picked up on my wife’s BPD yet I don’t know.

I’m really more focused on her getting individual therapy at this point.  I have a counselor I’ve been seeing for about a year but in all honesty I don’t think she understands BPD and often tells me that since she doesn’t have an official diagnosis I shouldn’t assume she has it.  She sounds much like your counselor.  Well - she meets all the 9 characteristics and I truly believe she has it. I’ve sometimes tried to talk myself out of believing it - and then another episode happens and I’m like - she’d definitely got it.

Getting your wife into individual therapy is a great idea.  I do like Dr. Phil's suggested approach, even though I did not have to do this, as it was our first long-term recent therapist that suggested this to my wife, and she followed her suggestion on this.

From what I have read, and discussed with my individual therapist, most therapists do not want to diagnose, as it will more likely they do not want to chase the pwBPD away once they learn the amount of therapy and work that is involved as many T's say BPD is not curable - from what I have learned it can be put into remission, and from what I have seen of my daughter's AN with similar pathology, it can be put into really deep remission to the point where it can be considered cured.  My wife was already a little bit self-aware of her issues, and I was able to have her focus on them by discussing the fallout of what I knew that she knew from actively listening and/or her journals and eventually expand to all of the areas over a period of two years.

Also many of the symptoms of BPD are present in varying degrees with Bipolar, HPD, NPD, MDD, GAD, Substance abuse disorders (C)PTSD and possibly others too - My wife says she is diagnosed for MDD & GAD which is the most common misdiagnosis combination for BPD according to my therapist and the SWOE book too.  When going through the manual, I looked up the symptoms to all of these different mental health conditions and had to discern what is the best fit.  For my wife BPD, was a perfect fit of all 9 (even though 5 or more are needed to be present and must have begun by early adulthood and possibly even adolescence).  I also looked at Bipolar and the other issues too, while there was a bit of overlap, those were not good fits.  I did explain to other PD's, and surprisingly she also matches 8/8 symptoms of OCPD which is a cluster "C" vs the "B" for BPD.

For the sole exception my wife had all of the symptoms of BPD except one - self-mutilation - and all of the "OR" statements could be changed to "AND" for my wife.  It was pretty close to a perfect symptom set and had the best match for my wife.   Since BPD can present in so many different ways, and the pwBPD can suppress their emotional dysregulation with those that they are not intimately involved with, it is easy to hide, and makes the licensed professional's job that much harder to diagnose.  When comorbidities are mixed in, this compounds the difficulty in diagnosing.  While I do fault the first couple's therapist for botching her response to my wife's most suicide attempt to be sent to the hospital for an evaluation that never happened.  Therapists are people too, and can only work with the information that they see in front of them.  They do know there are different perspectives, and it can be impossible to discern which perspective is correct and which one isn't, as both people believe their side. 

If I took a straight forward approach, that often didn't work with the therapist.  I had to use prompting questions, so my wife could tell her side of the story, and then I would ask questions around areas where my wife had a different perspective, and I would offer up clarifying statements non-accusatory "I" statements.  For example, if she accused me of not doing the dishes, I would have to ask her - who loaded the dishes into the dishwasher.  Who filled the pan with water so the water could help dissolve the food prior to washing it.  More often than not these statements were contradictory - the T eventually caught on, but continued to validate how my wife felt about it.

I will share with you how I knew if our couple's T caught on to the "BPD" bit...

The first one, on the last two scheduled sessions, she would ask my wife at the beginning of the sessions, "on a scale of 1 to 10, how are you feeling right now" - she did not ask me that question - it was very one sided.  This  shows she is gauging how triggered my wife was at the moment, and adjusting the session accordingly.

For the most recent one, she would take copious quantities of notes, and was very animated to the point I could not miss it when she did this, whenever a new symptom was exhibited or admitted to.

I would also read up on how to treat these symptoms from articles / books - and if the therapist was doing this, then it is a pretty safe assumption that the therapist has caught on.  However, be mindful that many of the methods can be used for other things.  Take for instance DBT was originally used for BPD; however, today, it can be used in treating many issues. 

So discerning if your T has caught on to BPD, at best it is as I described above, and can be a lot more nebulous.


I had to take it slow (I felt it was too slow, but in reality it was too fast at times).  In my particular situation, my wife had to figure out herself, that others perceived her as a monster by cowering in her presence.  I will share how I prioritized the symptoms, from easiest to recognize to hardest recognize:

1.  Repeated suicidal behavior and/or gestures or threats or self-mutilation
2.  Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger
3.  Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving)
4.  Rapid changes in mood, lasting usually only a few hours and rarely more than a few days
5.  Desperate efforts to avoid abandonment (actual or imagined)
6.  Persistent feelings of emptiness  **[just ask, and perhaps use this one to start the Dr. Phil dialog]**
7.  Unstable, intense relationships that alternate between idealizing and devaluing the other person
8.  An unstable self-image or sense of self
9.  Temporary paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms triggered by stress

After 1 & 2 were addressed, I focused on 3-8, whatever seemed to be the issue of the week is where I focused, I picked an area that my wife could describe as it was recent.  9 I found to be the most difficult to address, as dealing with dissociation, where my wife would genuinely not remember issues makes it difficult to address if the reality is simply not in their mind.

1 & 2 were comparatively easy to address, boundaries were put into place by the therapist as the real life consequences were set by the couple's therapist.  The other ones I had to set the boundaries, and it was difficult and contentious, but it eventually worked itself out with a lot of work on both my side, her side, with good communication.

I am going to wrap this up, for now, focused on 1 & 2 for you.  How does your therapist deal with you and your wife, when she exhibits "Repeated suicidal behavior and/or gestures or threats or self-mutilation"  AND "Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger" since you mentioned that she has all symptoms.  I am very curious on how your wife manifests these two symptoms, and what kind of response is observed from the therapists?

Take care.

[Notwendy]

[Post 2 of 3]
 
I complained bitterly to the couple’s therapist about the lack of reciprocity, and against the couple’s therapists advise I indicated I would be going to a ‘transactional’ model for the time being that would be based on units of time until some reasonable amount of parity is reached as I would no longer tolerate a 99:1 to 135:1 (measured on two different weeks about a year apart a year ago).  In response to such a lopsided reciprocity arrangement which ideally should be close to 1:1 and at most a 60:40 ratio - in order to encourage reciprocity I deliberately withheld giving my wife additional attention when she did not give me any attention.  If my wife gave me 2 hours of my love languages / emotional needs, I would give her no less than 2 back, it was no longer unconditional and unlimited attempting to meet my wife’s demands on entitlement.

What I have done sounds very counterintuitive; however, it is exceptionally effective as I knew my wife wanted to keep the relationship alive as she knows she has a good thing with me especially when I pulled back my seemingly endless acts of service for her.  For the past few months, my wife has dramatically increased her level of meeting my emotional needs and speaking my love languages, and I in turn have also naturally and dramatically increased mine towards her as well.  While the forced transactional model was needed to correct the disparity in our respective efforts initially - I am in the process of shifting back to a more emotionally healthy reciprocity model that comes naturally with a healthy relationship and I feel that my wife is ‘learning’ to do this as well.

I found this very interesting. I think reciprocity is unbalanced with BPD ( from my own experience) and I think the "cause" is being in victim perspective with the over functioning person being in rescuer position. It's felt it's deserved. I also think it's a part of their identity and meets an emotional need of theirs. But to reciprocate goes against that need.

It's odd to me but being in service to my BPD mother is an emotional need of hers- a large one. She seems to "need" people to be in service to her and in a way to be subservient to her. One doesn't "reciprocate" with their "servant".

She will even enlist people to do things for her that she doesn't need done for her- to meet this need. But ask her to do something for someone else results in being indignant. "how dare they ask me to do this". While her predominant behaviors are BPD, she also has a lot of NPD traits which may add to this.

I think a difference is if someone is self aware. It seems your wife is able to do that and in addition, if she is able to hold a job, she is also higher functioning. She knows what she needs to do to function in the workplace and that includes her behavior. So perhaps she is learning how to function better in her marriage. But consider this- how is this happening? While you have focused on your wife's changes, I think the changes have been in response to your changes. We can not change another person but if we change our behaviors- they have the choice to adapt or not. You changed and your wife made a choice.

It is possible that your wife won't respond intuitively to reciprocate if this isn't how she is designed but you can revert back to the transactional model if you find things are out of balance. Another way of looking at this is that, while it may feel transactional to you, it may be that you are developing better boundaries and are less inclined to tolerate the imbalance.

[hellosun]

Imagine if you were in your wife's shoes, and your husband [you] told you that you were having "extreme emotionalism" - how would that make you feel?  Especially if you didn't think you were all that emotional in the first place?  Would you embrace what your husband was telling you to seek help, or would you think he is being crazy for thinking that, since you don't think it is true and be dismissive about your feelings and opinions since you do not think they are true and deliberately drag your feet to go into a therapy session where you husband would blame you for everything?

How would that make you feel?  What would you want to express to your 'husband', so he would stop labeling you with "extreme emotionalism"?

I would guess that didn't work too well, and you [your wife] would be pushing back on the 'extreme emotionalism' narrative that your husband [you] was talking about.

Can you see that as a possible perspective for her?  Since you know your wife the 'best' - if you put yourself in your wife's shoes, and was in denial about the emotionalism - perhaps focus on a different topic, that is much less provocative initially, that your wife knows she has issues with that isn't quite as impactful as 'extreme emotionalism'.  Maybe call attention to a small, but very obvious component, in my case it was yelling at the top of her lungs - this too can be met with a lot of resistance, as my wife literally has told me, when I pointed that out she literally yelled at me "I'm not yelling!"!  Or, come up with a different tactic for her to become self aware, an indirect way initially by validating her feelings.

I literally ‘d at this when I first read it! So bang-on, SaltyDawg!    When not in the middle of it, the irony is hilarious...but yes, such good practical advice, thank you.

And thank you for taking the time to write out your story! (I will back to re-read the wisdom you have shared throughout this thread many more times, I’m sure.) What a tremendous breakthrough that your wife now recognizes when she is splitting. Wow!!
I don’t have time to respond to more right now, but I so am happy for you and your wife! 

[SaltyDawg]

I found this very interesting. I think reciprocity is unbalanced with BPD ( from my own experience) and I think the "cause" is being in victim perspective with the over functioning person being in rescuer position. It's felt it's deserved. I also think it's a part of their identity and meets an emotional need of theirs. But to reciprocate goes against that need.

I too found it interesting, and it is definitely unbalanced with the BPD from my own experience with two different borderlines. 

In the 'beginning' at least for the two romantic relationships I have experienced, there is love/sex bombing immediately from the first date on - so in a very distorted kind of way, they are making an 'investment' until you are hooked by making enormous love bank deposits, and when they perceive that you are 'hooked' then they will withdraw with entitlement that you 'owe me' for all of those deposits.  It starts off lopsided, at the time, as I was too naive to know anything about BPD, I did try to match their energy of the love bomb, and then they stop, but they expect you to still maintain that matching energy they have become accustomed to.  I'm a slow learner, and it took me way too much time to figure this out - decades.  However, now that I have this figured it out, I can manage the transactional reciprocity of the 'push-pull' dynamic that my own individual therapist calls it.

Regarding 'meets an emotional need'.  My personal observation is very similar to the parable that Forever Dad frequently shares of the endless pit, as I have felt that way in my acts of service to my wife.  My theory is that the endless 'acts of service' is actually a circumstantial manifestation of the symptom "Persistent feelings of emptiness" where the pwBPD demands more and more attention (entitlement) in order to fill the insatiable emptiness that they are experiencing; however, no matter how much I tried, I could not satisfy her, and within couple therapy on many occasions, I have commented, quipped, that my pwBPD was "unsatisfiable". 

It's odd to me but being in service to my BPD mother is an emotional need of hers- a large one. She seems to "need" people to be in service to her and in a way to be subservient to her. One doesn't "reciprocate" with their "servant".

I like the 'master - servant' analogy you implied, and sometimes it feels like a 'master - slave' as I have likened my acts of service to slavery to my wife, and I have called it 'servitude' in front of our couple's therapist, it wasn't received well by either by my wife or the therapist - so I have changed the way I speak on a full time basis and have changed it to 'lack of reciprocity', 'insufficient reciprocity', or something similar that is less triggering for her - yes, even though it is my most measures a 'success' my new way of talking to a normal person can still be perceived as 'walking on eggshells' as I have to modify the way I talk, so I do not trigger her.

She will even enlist people to do things for her that she doesn't need done for her- to meet this need. But ask her to do something for someone else results in being indignant. "how dare they ask me to do this". While her predominant behaviors are BPD, she also has a lot of NPD traits which may add to this.

Your describe you mom having comorbid NPD traits; whereas, my wife has comorbid OCPD baseline traits - so my wife does not manifest some of the traits in the same or similar manner as your mom in this aspect or in spending money unless her BPD is triggered, and then the BPD trait is limited to the episode which is temporary in nature induced by stress rather than the pervasive personality traits.  My wife, with her excessive devotion and preoccupation with others she wants to keep in her life (favorite person) will do something for someone else with fierce rigidity and stubbornness striving to do something perfectly so it has to be her way. 

This workaholism/perfectionist type attitude previously interfered with our family life to the point of neglecting me and our children at disordered level described by the following four OCPD symptoms "Excessive devotion to work and productivity (not due to financial necessity), resulting in neglect of leisure activities and friends"; "Preoccupation with details, rules, schedules, organization, and lists"; "A striving to do something perfectly that interferes with completion of the task" all combined with "Rigidity and stubbornness".

She has also corrected nearly all of her OCPD symptoms as well using 'wise mind' or a variation of it. 

I think a difference is if someone is self aware. It seems your wife is able to do that and in addition, if she is able to hold a job, she is also higher functioning. She knows what she needs to do to function in the workplace and that includes her behavior. So perhaps she is learning how to function better in her marriage.

My first individual therapist was joking with me that OCPD, when you read the symptoms of OCPD it is pretty much what an employer looks for in an employee.  It is the most common PD, yet the least treated - why?  Employers can take advantage of them as they follow rules and will do the extra mile and get the job done to near perfection - her OCPD is also what attracted me to her as well, as I personally value the non-disordered versions of these traits - I will start another thread on "BPD with OCPD comorbidity" on my observations and theories on this - as there are next to no articles on it, yet has a very high comorbidity depending on which NIH study is read (up to 50% for women and 42% for men).  As a result her employers overlooked her occasional BPD fueled outbursts (snapping, yelling, and splitting on coworkers when they did not follow the rules and adhered to 'moral values') because she is incredibly smart, or issued 'warnings' on these behaviors.

Previously she also expected everyone she dealt with to be this way too, and if they weren't - this created stress and anxiety then the BPD portion would reveal itself.

But consider this- how is this happening? While you have focused on your wife's changes, I think the changes have been in response to your changes. We can not change another person but if we change our behaviors- they have the choice to adapt or not. You changed and your wife made a choice.

You are right we cannot change another person; however, we can ethically influence, persuade, and even manipulate the situation to induce change in a positive way - I did this under the supervision of a licensed supervisory level therapist.

You are absolutely right, I did change, in fact it has been a lot of change which will be a subject of a different thread as well as it is extensive.  After the previous couple's therapist intimated I was changing, my wife responded a certain way, and by doing some mini-tests to see if she could 'adapt or not' - this emboldened me to 'call her bluffs', implement a series of fair, firm and enforceable boundaries - this is half of the changes that worked.  The other half was changing the way I communicated which can be summarized as "stop arguing and start validating".  Of course this is oversimplified, as I did a bunch of 'trial and error' to see what worked and what didn't. 

It is possible that your wife won't respond intuitively to reciprocate if this isn't how she is designed but you can revert back to the transactional model if you find things are out of balance. Another way of looking at this is that, while it may feel transactional to you, it may be that you are developing better boundaries and are less inclined to tolerate the imbalance.

Initially she didn't intuitively reciprocate when I first started to push back on excessive acts of service - she attempted/gestured suicide - it took nearly two years of therapy to come to a point where it is no longer disordered; however, she is still pushing up against the boundary (at the urging of the couple's therapist) so I am doing some compromises here on the boundary, but maintaining the majority of it.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, it is greatly appreciated.

[SaltyDawg]

I literally ‘d at this when I first read it! So bang-on, SaltyDawg!    When not in the middle of it, the irony is hilarious...but yes, such good practical advice, thank you.

And thank you for taking the time to write out your story! (I will back to re-read the wisdom you have shared throughout this thread many more times, I’m sure.) What a tremendous breakthrough that your wife now recognizes when she is splitting. Wow!!
I don’t have time to respond to more right now, but I so am happy for you and your wife! 

hellosun,

   I'm glad I was able to make you      I find humor to be my 'go to' coping mechanism, even though I did not intend on being funny when I said that.    ;)

   You're quite welcome - let me know if you have any questions, and I will try to answer them.

 SD

[Notwendy]

I think there is overlap between the PD's and so the behaviors can vary some. My BPD mother has an "OCD" perfectionist aspect but she's lower functioning and could not hold a job. It's a part of her expectations of others. If she sends you to the store for something and it isn't exactly correct- then you didn't do it right and she will assume you didn't on purpose. She has sent people back to get the correct item, even if it's a minor thing.

Her house has to be perfectly clean and if you accidentally get something dirty- she may decide it's completely ruined and throw it out. I won't cook in her kitchen because if there's a missed spot on the pan or a crumb on the floor,  she will react.

On her part though- she doesn't do the cleaning or the shopping or the cooking- she has other people do that, then is critical if they don't do it perfectly.

Although she is low functioning when it comes to doing tasks, she is skilled at getting people to do them for her. Perhaps this is due to her emotional need to have people do things for her but this can either please her or she will be critical of something.

While non romantic relationships don't involve the kind of love bombing seen in romantic ones, there still is a non romantic form of love bonding in other relationships. Initially, my mother can be very friendly and complimentary of others. It's usually later that she expresses disappointment. There is the painting white and black cycle. If she's being especially nice to me, it feels a bit precarious as I know it can change. Probably one the best changes to this for me is that I see it as a part of her BPD and not something personal. It may be that the love bombing is genuine in the moment or deliberate- it's hard to know-  but feelings can change quickly with BPD. I think as a relationship progresses they feel more secure and express more feelings.

[Notwendy]

To add- she's in assisted living now so that was her former house that I didn't cook in. She's OK with ordering out or bringing something prepared elsewhere.

The source of OCD behaviors is anxiety. If someone feels out of control- being over controlling and rigid gives them a sense of control. They can exist on their own or with other disorders that involve anxiety. It's also sometimes seen in people on the spectrum- they can be very rigid in their behaviors due to the underlying anxiety.

These behaviors can improve with therapy but three person needs to be able to work with a therapist. It's good that your wife is willing to do some of this. Sometimes it's the family members who are more responsive to therapy to help deal with this.

[thankful person]

Definitely a success story, and congratulations to you SD and all the best for your continuing journey. You are such a support and inspiration, and I’m ever thankful to all on here who have helped and supported me in navigating my “impossible” wife and marriage over the past 3 years.

[SaltyDawg]

TP,

   Thank you for your kind words, they are greatly appreciated. 

 SD

[SaltyDawg]

Just a quick update, my wife had a mini dysregulation when a lot of stressors came up at once (daughter was having surgery done, and I wasn't attentive enough).  She was stressed about that; however, she became dysregulated a little bit, and split me black when the ice maker malfunctioned on the freezer and I repaired it; however, there wasn't enough ice in the ice tray for her liking (for the ice packs and ice water), so she took it out on me with some choice words.  A few hours later I told her that was being verbally abusive over this, and she was able to process this.  A little bump in the grand scheme of things.

[usagi]

Hi SaltyDawg,

Thank you for sharing.  It's clear from this that you love your wife and children so much.  You've done some amazing work to improve a seemingly hopeless situation.

I feel like I might be at the start of a similar effort.  My partner has not displayed as severe of symptoms as you describe your wife having, but they are bad enough that it makes our relationship very difficult to manage.  We were recently planning on moving into an apartment together from another rental after living together for the past four years.  Just before finishing the move she threatened to kick me out.  Since then I've gotten my own place and am planning on trying to help her become more self-aware of her behaviors.

She's said that she will go to couples therapy but not before "you fix your own bad behaviors".  I got angry last week about her threat to leave right before we moved and yelled at her.  I've gotten her to agree to talk with my individual therapist under the guise of "helping me" improve my behavior.  My therapist already believes that she has BPD based on my descriptions.

I feel like I might need to push for an ultimatum though.  Either she attend couples therapy with me or we need to be done.  I don't really care how her behaviors are labelled but she's not owning any actions that contribute to the dysfunction of our relationship.  I realize that I can't fix things on my own.  She needs to do some of the work.

She also has a son (12) and shares time with him with her ex-husband.  I'm afraid that he's already going down the BPD path and is definitely displaying ODD behavior.  She and her ex had to remove him from many schools because of his interactions with students and staff.

I feel like an honest attempt at therapy will help both our relationship and her son.

I want so bad for this to work out but I feel she needs to participate.  Right now she seems very much against admitting to contributing to any of the dysfunction.

I feel like your narrative has given me some good ideas and expectations for this process.  If you have any other suggestions or thought on pitfalls to avoid I'd love to hear them.

Thanks so much

[SaltyDawg]

usagi,

   Thank you for reaching out.  Based on what you have written I will make a few observations.

   I also have a S12 who is the same age as your step-son.  If you haven't already arranged for an individual therapist for him, please do so - from what I understand passing through puberty is the the time to arrest the development of ODD into something potentially more sinister on the cluster-B spectrum.

   From my personal experience, ODD existed in my S12, and was formally diagnosed in my former uBPD/NPD/+exgf's son as well, age 11 at that time back in the late 1990's.  It is also present in many of children of the borderlines that I have interacted out in the wild.

   If I were in your shoes, I would prioritize your step son, when he still can be influenced by therapy in a positive way by a competent therapist who is familiar with the BPD dynamic at home.

   Now to change focus to your wife...  I think it is awesome that you want to help your wife, and I commend you for this.  However, I am fairly certain the 'ultimatum' that you propose, will NOT work as she has already divorced her exH, and is now making overtures to do the same with you and you have already taken the steps to get your own place with physical separation and an ultimatum will ultimately push her away too.

   It was my wife's fear of abandonment that kept my wife in meaningful therapy; however, my exgf from the 1990's, her fear of abandonment caused her to abandon me first by cheating on me with another guy, only to try a recycle when that failed, which allowed me to collect my personal belongings as I already had moved on.  Knowing what the exgf was like, if I tried any of what I have described above, it would have most likely resulted in her leaving for yet a different guy, and it did after I left and went NC with her.

   I do like the bit where you said:

She's said that she will go to couples therapy but not before "you fix your own bad behaviors".  I got angry last week about her threat to leave right before we moved and yelled at her.  I've gotten her to agree to talk with my individual therapist under the guise of "helping me" improve my behavior.  My therapist already believes that she has BPD based on my descriptions.

   I too was dragged into family therapy "to fix your issues" [bad behaviors].  I also tried the guise method of 'helping me' improve my behaviors.  I know that guise did not hurt, and I also took it a step further to mention I might have BPD (even though I knew I didn't so she learn about it, and hopefully be able to connect the dots of her bad behavior).

   Additionally, from what I have read, the higher functioning they are, the less likely they are open to treatment, as they cannot admit any wrong doing.  I was fortunate enough my wife is both very high functioning; however, she did have episodes very similar to a conventional borderline which allowed her to see herself as a 'monster' or a 'lunatic' as she put it.

   After brainstorming a bit about your specific situation, based only what you have written on this thread - my suggested approach would look something like:

+Start getting her into meaningful therapy by using the 'guise' she is there to fix you.  This will be emotionally painful to you, as she will expose your flaws more often than not in an exaggerated manner, and it will also require you to fix those flaws that she exposes - this will make you a better person.  If a flaw is not truthful, I made the mistake of keeping quiet or become very defensive about it and did the JADE.  Gently reword the flaw, using "I" statements, without affixing blame to your partner, and use the words 'help me understand?' or 'how can I do that better for you?'.

For example - if she accuses you of not being there for her.  Do not get defensive, and do not JADE; however, do say something like, "I feel that I am there for you be doing [example 1], [example 2], and [example 3].  Can you help me understand how this is not being there for you?"  alternatively you could ask "What else can I do in order to be there for you?"  Then let the therapist guide the conversation.  It is important to not use the same question/format over and over, but change it up frequently using different words with the similar meaning. 

   My wife has often told me that I speak like a politician when in couple's therapy - and she is right - you have to.  Politicians are masters at answering with a non-direct answer in a manner in order not to inflame their voters - something similar needs to occur here.

   This method of communication is indirect, slow and tedious, and prone to emotional flare ups;  however, from trial and error most other formats I have tried will only inflame the situation and make it worse, even SET in my wife's situation, I had to drop the T and only use the SE.

+Before you start the therapy sessions, ask the therapist that you have previous vetted to take it easy on her, and what you have suspected and how emotionally sensitive she is, and ask that she take it slow on her, and only focus on one topic per session.  Too many topics will chase a borderline away.  It will start very slow, too slow, and you feel attacked, the therapist is trying to convince your partner that the therapist has your partner's best interest at hand - the T needs to build trust in your partner - if you have weekly sessions, in my case with my wife, this process took at least 2 months, but more like 4 months in.

   Keep in mind the way you are feeling when the therapist challenges you, your partner is going feeling it much worse when she is challenged in a BPD kind of way, and you don't want her to run when it gets 'too tough' and that threshold is very low for a borderline.

   Can you share with me if your partner has had more than one episode of suicide gesture/attempts and/or self mutilation/harm?  If so, this would be a good place to start.  Also, physical violence where a mark was left on you would be a good place to start as well.  Most of the other symptoms are much more nuanced, and many therapists will not recognize those symptoms as they can appear normal until they are put in a borderline context especially if they are explained away by the borderline through their distorted lens of their very valid feelings.

   If none of those exist, perhaps pick a topic that does not deal with you.  Perhaps discuss issues with her son that she has expressed to you (like the behavioral issues) as it is easier to focus on someone else, than the self or each other.  Likewise, if she has issues with colleagues, or other parents, or even the children's teachers - focus on that, and see if any issues can be identified by the therapist that can be worked on.

   A good therapist, will dig deeper and expand the issue until some level of recognition is reached.

   It is important to validate your partner's feelings - no matter how crazy they might seem - try to see them from their point of view, and when validating them reflect back to them in an exaggerated manner; however, do not validate the invalid facts - remain silent, or give examples to the contrary, but do not confront facts that are false other than perhaps a simple 'not true' statement.

   For example if your partner says "I am very upset that you didn't do [blah blah]".  Validate them by saying, "I can see how you are extremely upset that I didn't do [blah blah] as I didn't think of your feelings adequately - I am sorry that I made you feel that way".  This way you are validating how they are feeling without admitting to whatever false narrative they are accusing you of.  If it is true what they are accusing you of, by all means admit your wrong doing - your example where you yelled at her.  Say something like "I am sorry for yelling at you, I got very upset when I felt I was asked to leave." (Notice I did not use the word 'you' in that apology, as that would have been accusatory).

   Another great resource, which is very counterintuitive, is the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy LCSW JD & Randi Kreger.  While this book is intended for those who are divorcing/separating it has many techniques in it to calm conflict which is the crux of a high conflict personality in couple's therapy as well - I read it as part of "Hope/Pray for the best, but plan for the worst" and found the strategies contained within to be very useful in my own couple's therapy.

   Hopefully this will give you some more ideas, let me know if you have any more questions, as that will allow me to reflect back on what has worked and didn't work for me.

   I wish you the best, and I will also pray for your situation as well.

   Take care.

SD

[usagi]

Thank you SaltyDawg,

I vacillate between feeling hopeful and utterly crushed but as I write this I'm in a hopeful mood.

   Can you share with me if your partner has had more than one episode of suicide gesture/attempts and/or self mutilation/harm?  If so, this would be a good place to start.  Also, physical violence where a mark was left on you would be a good place to start as well.  Most of the other symptoms are much more nuanced, and many therapists will not recognize those symptoms as they can appear normal until they are put in a borderline context especially if they are explained away by the borderline through their distorted lens of their very valid feelings.

I witnessed an episode of self harm early this year.  We had just gotten done with a pretty quiet walk and were settling in to go to bed.  Out of nowhere she asks me, "so are you going to quite your hobby?"  This short phrase turned into a two hour scream fest by her.  I MOSTLY stayed calm but said that I could change where and when I'd go but not give it up entirely.  This was not enough for her.  She kept getting more and more agitated.  Finally she started forcefully hitting herself in the face with her fist.  Then she tried throwing herself down the stairs, tried running to the garage to get in her car but then stopped and tried reaching for a knife in the kitchen.  After everything I had seen I finally relented and said that I'd quit.  She immediately collapsed in my arms when I said this.  I carried her to bed and we went to sleep...somehow.  The next day we talked about how I wasn't really going to quit and that I felt I had to say that in the situation to get her to stop abusing herself.  During that discussion she admitted that she had abused herself before during another break up with a boyfriend in her early 20s.  Since then she's admitted to feeling so overwhelmed with her emotions that she wanted to hit herself but didn't.

This was extremely scary for me to be apart of.  I've tried to talk to her about how she sometimes feels she needs to hurt herself but she just changes the subject.

My therapist is the one that put me on the path to understanding BPD behaviors.  I don't feel she needs much coaching on this but it's probably worth it to game plan a bit before they meet.

I feel like I'm at the stage where I've learned and understand the ways in which I can better respond to her behavior but am still working on the implementation part.  I get it right sometimes.  Admittedly when it involves my hobby I struggle the most.  This is because this is the only activity I've held onto as my own.  I've given up so much.  I want to keep one thing that gives me some joy.

Thanks again SD.  It's possible that we'll have our first session next week.  I'll be sure to post about the experience.

[usagi]

Sorry you had also talked about my step son.  I've tried several times to convince my partner that he should be in therapy.  She is adamant that its not necessary.  She had taken him to therapy early on in his life when he started having behavior problems at school.  But as soon as the therapist suggested there were things she could do different with him she dropped out.

I really wish there were something I could do but I don't have any legal rights in this situation.

[SaltyDawg]

Sorry you had also talked about my step son.  I've tried several times to convince my partner that he should be in therapy.  She is adamant that its not necessary.  She had taken him to therapy early on in his life when he started having behavior problems at school.  But as soon as the therapist suggested there were things she could do different with him she dropped out.

I really wish there were something I could do but I don't have any legal rights in this situation.

Yes, I did talk about your SS.  I underlined the portion that would seem to indicate that your partner is unlikely to accept any responsibility; hence, she likely dropped out therapy when your partner was asked what she could do different with him.  She sounds like she actively avoids any kind of criticism directed in her direction.

Perhaps, think outside of the box, since you 'don't have any legal rights'.  If you are involved with him at school, attend parent/teacher conferences and so forth perhaps suggest a few visits to the guidance counselor, and if your partner is not present, ask to keep the conversation in confidence, and explain the home-life situation.  I know it is going behind your partner's back, and she will likely be furious if she ever found out; however, you are trying to save a 2nd person, who should not have to go through this, from becoming on the BPD/Cluster-B spectrum.  Be careful, as certain behaviors will trigger a CPS investigation, as they are all mandated reporters.  Sexual abuse & physical abuse are the biggies.

I am also curious about her ex-H, have you met him, if so, do you think you can partner up with him for some strategies to help out your SS, his S?

If you are still involved with your SS - get him out of the home, and have him socialized with peers - pay for sports (baseball, basketball, lacrosse, football, etc.), have him go on play dates at other friend's homes, etc, etc.  Boy scouts, and other civic minded volunteer activities are good too.  The more positive role modeling he sees and participates in the better - did this for both of my children, and the results are much better than if they stayed at home in a dysfunctional environment and/or on a device with no face to face socialization.  Devices were a necessary evil for the pandemic, but not now.

I vacillate between feeling hopeful and utterly crushed but as I write this I'm in a hopeful mood.

You are not alone in those feelings, at the beginning I too was utterly crushed and had my one and only panic attack the moment I realized what I was dealing with two years ago, and depending on my wife's mood swings, my feelings would often reflect what she was feeling - if she was in a terrible mood, so was I - likewise, if she is in a good mood so am I - even though I have detached a bit from the enmeshment from my codependent ways to a healthier distance - even today I find myself influenced by her moodiness - still a work in progress for me.

I witnessed an episode of self harm early this year.  We had just gotten done with a pretty quiet walk and were settling in to go to bed.  Out of nowhere she asks me, "so are you going to quit your hobby?"  This short phrase turned into a two hour scream fest by her.  I MOSTLY stayed calm but said that I could change where and when I'd go but not give it up entirely.  This was not enough for her.  She kept getting more and more agitated.  Finally she started forcefully hitting herself in the face with her fist.  Then she tried throwing herself down the stairs, tried running to the garage to get in her car but then stopped and tried reaching for a knife in the kitchen.  After everything I had seen I finally relented and said that I'd quit.  She immediately collapsed in my arms when I said this.  I carried her to bed and we went to sleep...somehow.  The next day we talked about how I wasn't really going to quit and that I felt I had to say that in the situation to get her to stop abusing herself.  During that discussion she admitted that she had abused herself before during another break up with a boyfriend in her early 20s.  Since then she's admitted to feeling so overwhelmed with her emotions that she wanted to hit herself but didn't.

This is a very good topic to talk about; however, for a first session, it may be too much, too fast - figure out a way to ease into it depending on your partner's anxiety/stress level.  Perhaps, casually mention in front of the Therapist, something like "I feel that my partner doesn't like me doing my hobby, and has gotten quite upset at me at times - perhaps this is a good topic to start on this, as I would like to learn how she feels about it so I can understand her feelings better"  Let your partner pour her heart out, and actively listen quietly taking mental notes along the way.  When she finishes or the Therapists talks to you about it, take your time and answer mindfully and empathetically without being confrontational using "I" statements avoiding 'you', 'but', 'however', etc.

If her recounting doesn't match yours, or she leaves out key self-incriminating facts like screaming at you, be very careful on how you correct her.  Don't say, 'you're wrong' to your partner - instead turn to the therapist, say something like "T, I don't quite remember it that way.  I seem to recall I was being yelled at, I had to watch in horror as the one I love tried to throw herself down the stairs, and grabbed a kitchen knife in a threatening manner."  Stop, and let the therapist take over and let the therapist discern what really happened.  If you think this may be too triggering for your partner, you will need to go slower.  And simply state to the therapist, in front of your partner "T, I feel that you were not told the entire truth and it was much more to it than what has been shared".  Let the T ask you and/or your partner to discern what really happened.  This make one or more sessions to do.  Really slow, but you want to keep your partner engaged in therapy, and not chase her away.

Using an analogy, when you are teaching a child something new, you have to have extreme patience - repeat as many times as necessary for the new skill to be learned - same thing here.  You are dealing with the emotional mentality of a small child, and need to go at that pace.

With my wife, all I had to do was mention a topic she was heated about, I also like to keep it current, anything that occurred since the last session, and my wife would pour her heart out on the topic, after she stopped or was interrupted by the therapist and I was asked about it, I would frame my answer along the lines of "Yes, I know she gets very upset, and I don't want to upset her anymore, perhaps she can share with you what happened this past Tuesday evening in her own words" - this way you are not speaking for her; however, you are focusing on the topic, so the therapist can assess the best way to handle it.  If it is true, verify it, and missing a fact or two - if she omitted punching herself in the face as this is very shameful (example:  "Yes, I agree she was extremely upset; however, I am having a hard time bringing this up as it may more upsetting; I would like to understand and change so she will no longer hurt herself when I told her I would do my hobby and the only was I got her to stop was by agreeing not to do my hobby anymore" this communicates to the therapist of her self-harm without blurting 'she self-harms'.  Conversely, if you think your partner would be triggered when you do that, then you may need to go slower as well.  You still need to highlight the behavior, but in a very subtle way - the 'hurt herself' is a trigger word for the therapist, they are trained to focus on this - if your therapist misses this, time to find another therapist.

A good therapist, may stop the session, and work individually with your partner about the self-harm issue.  At a minimum the T will ask question to discern the kind and severity of the self-harm in order to address it adequately.

Other methods I have used in couple's therapy, I have also let my wife choose the topic she wanted to talk about, then I would use techniques I have learned over the YEARS to actively communicate to the therapist that while there is some basis in truth, it is often very exaggerated or facts omitted to the point of being completely false, and you need to do the corrections for the therapist, as the therapist is not a mind reader - I made this mistake for 2-1/2 years which resulted in no meaningful progress being made in that time-frame as I was too 'non-confrontational' in the matter.  I was also too naive and nice to do so as well.

The biggest part of being in therapy was for my wife to feel validated and heard before any meaningful therapy could occur.  In my situation, this took years, it won't happen in a manner that a normal person would like to have happen.

This was extremely scary for me to be apart of.  I've tried to talk to her about how she sometimes feels she needs to hurt herself but she just changes the subject.

This is something that is best discussed with a therapist present - gently bring up the topic in a similar manner as above, and let the T run the show - the T usually has the experience to expand the topic in a non-confrontational and even with a good dose of empathetic validation.

In a therapy session, the T may or may not change the topic - I have found our T does change the topic when my wife gets a bit too agitated/stressed.  Once my wife becomes triggered, she became irrational, and the remainder of the session was a waste of time as she couldn't be reasoned with and nothing could be gained - so I usually reserved the 2nd half of the session for the more conflicted/ing issues to discuss.  Through trial and error, I had to learn how far I could push the therapeutic process with our couple's therapist.

To use an analogy, it is kind of like driving a car to its limit around a corner, and you want to change direction (turn) as fast as you can, but you don't want to lose control, and you are drifting around a corner with only 1 wheel having traction and the other 3 not having any traction.  The key is not to completely lose control, but to push the car hard enough for change - the only thing is that you are doing this maneuver on wet ice, so it needs to go so slow.  To fast you, lose control and crash and it is game over, or at a minimum spin out and become very disoriented and have to start over again.

My therapist is the one that put me on the path to understanding BPD behaviors.  I don't feel she needs much coaching on this but it's probably worth it to game plan a bit before they meet.

Mine too, it took all of 40 minutes into in my first session ever with my T, a psychologist, to ask me "Has your wife been evaluated for Bipolar or BPD?"  While I had heard of bipolar - I had not heard about BPD at that time - this was shortly after my wife's most recent suicide attempts more than 2-1/2 years of couple's therapy already done.  It was painfully obvious to him - I looked up the symptoms for each, and BPD was a perfect fit, 9/9 of the symptoms were present.  While reading Bipolar symptomology there was too much that was not a match, so I was easily able to discern it was BPD and not bipolar - I have some medical background/training but not in psychology except a certain subset not related to PDs.  On the 2nd session, the T handed me a book on BPD from his personal library and that started me on the journey to figure out BPD and how to deal with it in my family dynamic.

I feel like I'm at the stage where I've learned and understand the ways in which I can better respond to her behavior but am still working on the implementation part.  I get it right sometimes.  Admittedly when it involves my hobby I struggle the most.  This is because this is the only activity I've held onto as my own.  I've given up so much.  I want to keep one thing that gives me some joy.

Don't ever give up your hobby - it's part of your self-care.

If you want it to work, you need to emotionally support and validate her feelings, even if she pisses you the hell off with her behaviors - radical acceptance.  You need to understand she cannot control her emotions, but you do need to hold her accountable to them once she returns to baseline (in couple's therapy).  Avoid her when she is irrational, but engage her when she is rational at baseline.  Work with your own therapist for strategies, and then introduce them inside of couple's therapy by saying something along the lines of "I was talking to my individual therapist, and (s)he said we should try blah blah blah, do you think it is a good idea for us in couple's therapy to try blah blah blah?" in order to implement communication techniques that your pwBPD, your partner, can respond to in a positive way, or neutral way, as long as it is not a negative way.

It's a continual learning curve with lots of trials and errors.  A lot of hard work, an extreme amount of patience, a desire to learn what and how she is feeling her emotions, so you can better respond to them, and persuade and influence her to do the right thing.  And like a diet, it never ends, even when things are better as I am learning right now.

Thanks again SD.  It's possible that we'll have our first session next week.  I'll be sure to post about the experience.

You are quite welcome, and I thank you for asking your questions that have helped me articulate more accurately what has worked in my situation, and hopefully it can help you and other readers out as well.

Take care.

SD

[usagi]

Yes, I did talk about your SS.  I underlined the portion that would seem to indicate that your partner is unlikely to accept any responsibility; hence, she likely dropped out therapy when your partner was asked what she could do different with him.  She sounds like she actively avoids any kind of criticism directed in her direction.

That's been my observation.  Early on in our relationship I'd try to talk to her about things that were bothering me about the relationship.  She would listen to what I had to say but ultimately turn it back on me and try to make it my problem.  This has unfortunately set an unhealthy pattern for our communication.

I am also curious about her ex-H, have you met him, if so, do you think you can partner up with him for some strategies to help out your SS, his S?

I have met her ex and have had a few conversations with him about non-important topics like the weather.  I've been very reluctant to try to talk directly with her ex about SS12's behavior.  My partner, not surprisingly, is very controlling about how he is parented and my involvement.  I'm afraid that if I start a line of communication with ex it will eventually get back to her and it would cause problems.  That said, I'm painfully aware that he does need help and is not getting it.  He's being set up for failure.  I should put more thought into this.

If her recounting doesn't match yours, or she leaves out key self-incriminating facts like screaming at you, be very careful on how you correct her.  Don't say, 'you're wrong' to your partner - instead turn to the therapist, say something like "T, I don't quite remember it that way.  I seem to recall I was being yelled at, I had to watch in horror as the one I love tried to throw herself down the stairs, and grabbed a kitchen knife in a threatening manner."

This is something that I'm pretty concerned about.  I can be a little ham handed with my word choice sometimes.  I think the therapy sessions will be another opportunity to practice how I speak with her when she's emotional.

The biggest part of being in therapy was for my wife to feel validated and heard before any meaningful therapy could occur.  In my situation, this took years, it won't happen in a manner that a normal person would like to have happen.

This makes a lot of sense to me.  That is how I've come to understand her condition.  That really everything is about validation.

Thanks again for all the support and sharing your experiences SD!

[SaltyDawg]

That's been my observation.  Early on in our relationship I'd try to talk to her about things that were bothering me about the relationship.  She would listen to what I had to say but ultimately turn it back on me and try to make it my problem.  This has unfortunately set an unhealthy pattern for our communication.

With respect to my son, I kept him engaged in socialization in emotionally healthy friendships with his peers and healthy role models of his peers parent(s) that he can use them as a role model - this has been method I have been using with my son once he refused to see his therapist anymore.  You might want to consider trying something similar if you have with your SS.

I have met her ex and have had a few conversations with him about non-important topics like the weather.  I've been very reluctant to try to talk directly with her ex about SS12's behavior.  My partner, not surprisingly, is very controlling about how he is parented and my involvement.  I'm afraid that if I start a line of communication with ex it will eventually get back to her and it would cause problems.  That said, I'm painfully aware that he does need help and is not getting it.  He's being set up for failure.  I should put more thought into this.

I hear you, and I also understand your apprehension on this as I too would not want to be exposed to exposure.  I love the idea that you want to put more thought into this - please think outside of the box in order to do the most good - I had to in my situation, and it paid off.

This is something that I'm pretty concerned about.  I can be a little ham handed with my word choice sometimes.  I think the therapy sessions will be another opportunity to practice how I speak with her when she's emotional.

I too am that way, where I blurt something out, only to regret saying that as it was not interpreted the way I wanted it to be.  I feel that therapy sessions is a very good place to practice how to speak with empathy and active listening skills.

This makes a lot of sense to me.  That is how I've come to understand her condition.  That really everything is about validation.

I agree, it is all about validation of what can be validated; however, do not validate the invalid.

Thanks again for all the support and sharing your experiences SD!

You're welcome, I am happy that I was able to help you by sharing my experiences.  Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

Another update, we went on the first of three planned summer vacations last week to a resort city 4 hours away. 

In years past when planning a trip like this, it was fraught with anxiety and often included her lashing out at me and typically would result in a lot of stress for everyone involved and was no fun for anyone as she would catastrophize the worst case scenario for each in a very irrational way.

This year there was still a bit of anxiety, as she naturally stresses out about the details of the trip; however, this year she could 'contain' her emotions better and was able to self-soothe after I reassured her, and also gently pointed out "I feel/sense that you are getting very frustrated right now about ____________________, I am here for you if you want to talk about it ([or] I am willing to help you with [_or do] __________________).  This seemed to work, even though it was a little bit of a bump here and there; however, the dysregulation [not being rational] was not present [this is how I personally define if my wife is behaving at disordered level or not], even though there was still quite a bit of anxiety.

Even though I still do consider it a success, as she is still in remission - I also have come to the realization that her goal of being 'normal' as in being fully "recovered" as per definition has not yet occurred like it has for our dear daughter.  But what is 'recovery' and what is 'remission'? Pensive1 shared on another thread at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358514.msg13215412#msg13215412 several articles on these topics - thank you, Pensive1.  However, the articles that linked to only adds to the differences in the definitions of remission and recovery and have a variety of time periods of 2 months, 1 year, 2 years, 4 years, and even 10 years.

Those articles also discuss if the symptoms have been reduced/eliminated, the underlying issues more often than not still remain - those articles are a fascinating read so I can temper my [and your] expectations of recovery/remission are grounded in reality and not unrealistic like traditional recovery in other areas of treatment.

Here are the articles:
Soloff, 2021;
Gunderson et al., 2011; &
Zanarini, Frankenburg, Reich, & Fitzmaurice, 2010a.

To summarize this update, as long as I can moderate the amount of external stress my wife is experiencing, the better her behaviors are. 

While I do find myself doing more 'acts of service' to reduce my wife's outside stressors, I still find I need to remind her of the need of 'reciprocity' at equal levels as I definitely want to avoid the extreme disproportionate levels that I experienced as recently as of a year ago.  So, I am still walking on eggshells, at least I am no longer walking on hand grenades.

I will draw an analogy to a diet - once the goal of a healthy weight achieved, it needs to be maintained, I still find that I have to work my system (developed through individual trial and error) to maintain my wife's remission and still nudge it towards a full recovery, so it is not a 'yo-yo' recovery/remission as I definitely want to avoid lapses and relapses which are very much possible as noted in the article on the topic.

For the past few days, now that our normal 'routine' as been re-established, she is much calmer (appears neurotypical/normal) - stressful variations outside of the normal routine still have an exaggerated emotional response leading up to the vacation; however, the vacation itself was very enjoyable as it turned out as expected.

Take care.

[SaltyDawg]

Usagi,

   I am following your other threads; however, I will respond here.  I see that you are still experiencing drama with your pwBPD where she came over to your new place and you maintained a firm on the boundary of your hobby.

   Instead of apologizing profusely for the pain that you caused her, do apologize briefly, but refocus on her and her son, and tell her how much you want to be part of their lives by giving at least 3 or more examples for each of what you have done for them in the past, what you are doing in the present, and intend to do in the future as well - show her that she is the center of your focus.

   Two years ago, when I was giving every waking hour to my wife in acts of service [slavery - I resented her for this] - I announced I would cut back on doing her bidding to focus on my own self-care.  Her response:  attempted suicide.  While this did put a temporary hold on when I started to do self-care, and when I did reallocate a few hours per week initially to self care, a couple weeks later, I just did it without telling her - guess what happened - absolutely nothing. 

   I personally have found that if I spend all of my time trying to please my wife, or very little time (matching her level of reciprocity - or lack thereof) the end result is the same in my situation.  This works for me, I tell her I will give her at least as much time as she gives to me - my target is a 2:1 ratio, so I can clearly articulate I have spend 6 hours helping you out while I have spent 3-4 hours on my own self-care.  If you spend more time with me, I can spend more time with you.

   Her threats of leaving could be real, [my wife made at least 50 serious threats of divorce] especially as you have already moved out of same living space, but more than likely they are attempts at manipulation to sway you to her demands.  What would happen if this happened?  I suspect, it will shift to some other area where she would perceive you falling short for her, it did for me, so I definitely pulled back to a place that comfortable for me, and should be twice as comfortable for most other women in a similar situation - most are envious of the amount of attention I give my wife and children that I have discussed in another thread on attracting 'crazy'.

   One of my wife's better friend's husband spends so little time with her friend (He is out hunting and fishing nearly every weekend, and has a few week long trips in a year doing this), and when she compares me against him, she knows she has a good thing going - my wife is able to think logically with regards to this.  Likewise, you might want to encourage her to do something similar if you think it would be beneficial to your situation.

   I know you are torn, but you have already made actual moves away from her (by physically moving out).  If you want this relationship to work, and I think you do, you need to figure out how to stop making it worse (by talking extensively about your hobby), and making it better (by focusing on her and her son).

   Would you be open to putting a temporary 'pause' on your hobby, for a month, perhaps a season, as a trial-run?  If things remain the same or get worse, you can go back to your hobby without guilt; however, if it does get better - figure out the best solution when you reach that point in your relationship.  If it is better, she might be more open to having a hobby, especially if you include her son or her in it too even if it means rethinking your 'me time'.  When my relationship was at its worst, the only 'me time' I could carve out was taking a nice long dump on the toilet, and my wife even complained about that - I couldn't get any peace back then.

Being with a woman with borderline traits is difficult at best especially if she has given you the 'my family or this hobby' ultimatum and neither one of you would budge, an impasse.  How you proceed is up to you - but figure out what you want (both) and think outside of the box that each of you have drawn in order to make it happen.

Perhaps identify an activity/hobby/etc that takes a similar amount of time away from you that she likes (as mundane as watching TV or a full blown hobby like yours) and insists she doesn't do it - fight fire with fire by giving her an equivalent example of sacrifice for her that she is asking of you - I had to do this a few times in my version of the 'Taming of the Shrew' for my own wife.  Unlike your partner, my wife has an individual therapist, and it took her several weeks to work through this, and she eventually embraced my self-care/hobbies that almost caused her to end her life 25 months ago.

She said that she'd found out there's a dating app for single parents.  She said on the site all the men say that they may not respond quickly because their family comes first.  "That sounds more my speed..."

I find it curiously ironic that your hobby has been labelled your 'mistress', yet, she is threatening to cheat on you with this dating app... where the men are specifically mentioning that they are going to blow her off in favor of their family obligations with even less attention - think about it - all apparent manipulation tactics on her part.

[SaltyDawg]

We just had our couple's therapy earlier today - this was probably the best one to date, ever - as there was more 'progress'.

We talked about the anxiety she had prior to the trip I mentioned on yesterday's post, as we are preparing for the next one and a similar pattern of anxiety is happening.  My wife was able to identify her feelings, she called it 'angst' to the couple's therapist in addition to other feelings some of which was a bit of a reach like 'fear of abandonment' to what we were discussing - perhaps to some of the things I said "no" to.  She was able to articulate her feelings about the upcoming trip quite well - I was impressed - last year she would have been verbally attacking me and blame shifting all of the issues to me, whether or not if there had any truth to it.

We also talked about her most recent *near* 'dysregulation' where she started to go around in a circular argument with magical thinking about how I was able to do an impossible IT fix on one of her accounts - while it did take 3 full circles, each time where she elevated her voice a little bit more, I did convince her to let it go, after I was able to explain logically, with the same answer each time, why I wasn't able to fix it, and offered the same suggestion to fix it tomorrow, when she wanted it fixed 'now'.  She also accused me of not helping her out at the end of the circular argument, and I immediately listed everything I had just done within the past hour for her - and she was able to accept the explanations, process it and recognize it to be true and was able to recount this to the couple's therapist as well - I believed she used a skill very similar to DBT 'wise mind' and the 'fact checking tool' which she is still learning to do.

Watching her consistently grow emotionally in this manner is very exciting for me, as she is now able to regulate her emotions, even though I still need to do some prompting at times [previously she would accuse me of attacking her when I did this]; however, it would seem she now 'trusts' me when I am gently telling her that her behaviors are inappropriate and will not be tolerated - which I explained to the couple's therapist as my 'boundaries' on being treated in that manner.  I also suspect that I am now transitioning to becoming my wife's 'favorite person,' a role I lost the moment she realized she was pregnant for the first time some 18+ years ago.  I feel as though I am *almost* being idealized by her, but not quite - I will monitor this closely.

I did compliment my wife, that this was 'good progress' and the couple's therapist corrected me immediately and said it was 'excellent progress'.

The stress of planning a vacation triggered her a bit; however, she was able to retain her emotional regulation throughout these conversations and activities, even though we seemed to be on the brink of some very minor dysregulation -- she was able to recover from it without 'losing it'.

This is what 'progress' looks like.  Comparatively boring, it did not go sideways, it was not irrational, she could be reasoned with, mostly uneventful, not much drama, but it is a welcome change to what it used to be.  Boring is good.

 

Thanks for letting me share.  Take care with self-care.

[usagi]

Usagi,

   I am following your other threads; however, I will respond here.  I see that you are still experiencing drama with your pwBPD where she came over to your new place and you maintained a firm on the boundary of your hobby.

Thanks SaltyDawg,

Yes she completely spiraled out of control this past weekend.  Saturday was a day full of very lengthy text messages about how I'm putting my hobby above the needs of [her] my family.

   Instead of apologizing profusely for the pain that you caused her, do apologize briefly, but refocus on her and her son, and tell her how much you want to be part of their lives by giving at least 3 or more examples for each of what you have done for them in the past, what you are doing in the present, and intend to do in the future as well - show her that she is the center of your focus.

I think that would have been a good suggestion.  I might have had a chance to bring her a little out of the spiral.  I was completely playing defense the whole time, just responding to her questions mostly.

What would happen if this happened?  I suspect, it will shift to some other area where she would perceive you falling short for her, it did for me, so I definitely pulled back to a place that comfortable for me, and should be twice as comfortable for most other women in a similar situation - most are envious of the amount of attention I give my wife and children that I have discussed in another thread on attracting 'crazy'.

I really suspect that this was all just a emotion induced move to get me to do what she perceived at something she needs.  On Sunday she said she didn't want to talk to me for at least 6 months but has been emailing me several times a day since then.  Most of the emails are just mundane things but often they follow with descriptions about why we can't be together and that she still really loves me  and finds me attractive.

   Would you be open to putting a temporary 'pause' on your hobby, for a month, perhaps a season, as a trial-run?  If things remain the same or get worse, you can go back to your hobby without guilt; however, if it does get better - figure out the best solution when you reach that point in your relationship.  If it is better, she might be more open to having a hobby, especially if you include her son or her in it too even if it means rethinking your 'me time'.  When my relationship was at its worst, the only 'me time' I could carve out was taking a nice long dump on the toilet, and my wife even complained about that - I couldn't get any peace back then.

I actually had this same thought.  But I'm not sure what the result would be.  I won't give this up for good, it's one of the few things I do for myself that give me joy.  Whether I stop for one month or one year, eventually we'd get back to me leaving the house to go do this.  She hasn't said that this is my "mistress" explicitly, that's more of my interpretation of how it makes her feel.  I am wondering if I took a break and went back if that would actually be worse for her.  She would go from getting all of this attention to having to share again.  Something would have to change for her during that period and I'm not sure what that would be.  She shows absolutely no interest in seeing a therapist and seems to resent the idea.  Unfortunately this is not something that folks under 21 are allowed to do (just a rule by the group).  And at this point her son and her have built up so much animosity about this that I can't even really mention it without getting sour faces.


Being with a woman with borderline traits is difficult at best especially if she has given you the 'my family or this hobby' ultimatum and neither one of you would budge, an impasse.  How you proceed is up to you - but figure out what you want (both) and think outside of the box that each of you have drawn in order to make it happen.

Perhaps identify an activity/hobby/etc that takes a similar amount of time away from you that she likes (as mundane as watching TV or a full blown hobby like yours) and insists she doesn't do it - fight fire with fire by giving her an equivalent example of sacrifice for her that she is asking of you - I had to do this a few times in my version of the 'Taming of the Shrew' for my own wife.  Unlike your partner, my wife has an individual therapist, and it took her several weeks to work through this, and she eventually embraced my self-care/hobbies that almost caused her to end her life 25 months ago.

I've actually tried this before.  She's a lap swimmer.  She spends an hour every day at the pool.  That's 7 hours.  But yet she says that no parent is allowed 5 hours for a hobby.  It's ridiculous. And she does spend a LOT of time texting with one of her work friends, often at night when we are trying to spend quality time together.

At this point I really feel there's an impasse.  She has built this up to such a high degree in her mind that there's absolutely no compromise.  She has mentioned a few times that she's surprised I've not mentioned that I don't want to lose her.  Although recently I did call that out explicitly "please don't leave me, I need you and love you" and that was met with something like don't beg for something that you have complete control over.  That really took the wind out of my sails.  I really feel I need someone in my life that can encourage and support the tiny needs I have.  It's not asking too much.  I am confident that she'll never change and if I stay this will always be a battle.  And even if I gave this up I'd spend time doing something else that would become a problem.  She's often said that I prioritize work over her so that would be the next item on the chopping block.  She would somehow need to let this go, even a little and I don't see that happening.  I've given up all that I can.  No more. 

[SaltyDawg]

I really suspect that this was all just a emotion induced move to get me to do what she perceived at something she needs.  On Sunday she said she didn't want to talk to me for at least 6 months but has been emailing me several times a day since then.  Most of the emails are just mundane things but often they follow with descriptions about why we can't be together and that she still really loves me  and finds me attractive.

My wife would use coercive threats of divorce, threats of suicide when it really got bad for her, and wanted to control me every waking minute of every waking day.  I had very few boundaries, and I was dumb enough to allow it at that time.

The only positive thing that you mentioned is that she tell you she didn't want to talk to you for 6 month; however, she is e-mailing several times a day, and talking about the word 'together' and professes her love for you.  From what you have described, she is leaving the door cracked open to you, a ploy for manipulating you into doing her bidding - mine did something similar. 

I am going to share what I did - I call it learning the art of persuasion, or learning how to influence her.  The "Stop Caretaking" book by M. Fjelsted has a few tools like the 'seed planting tool' and a few others - however, her book while aggressive in comparison to other books on dealing with BPD; however, I feel it doesn't go far enough.  My favorite tool is definitely the 'seed planting tool'; however, I have found I had to expand on what that book said, and use stronger tools than what is mentioned in that book.

I am going to use the analogy, both criminals use firearms, but the police do too.  The criminals use it for a force of evil; whereas, the police use it as a force for good - a firearm can either be used in a destructive manner in anger, or as a constructive manner as a deterrent [coercive to do the 'right thing'].  Likewise, I have used other tools, that some might consider manipulative, under the supervision of my therapist, while she did not suggest them, she did ensure I used them in an ethically responsible manner when I shared my theory on 'influencing' her in a positive manner.  These tools are quite powerful, as they can easily be used as reactive abuse which crosses the line.

I've used a similar push/pull dynamic with my wife, similar to what your partner is using on you.  The difference is my sense of self is much greater than my wife, and it put my wife in a tailspin.  The balance of power in my relationship changed on the most recent threat of divorce/separation my wife made.  She made a safety plan with her therapist, had her therapist share it with our couple's therapist.  She executed her plan of separation, and asked me to leave the marital residence and leave her with our kids.

I knew it was coming, as the previous week she indicated she was working on a 'safety plan' - I just didn't know when.  I told her in front of the couple's therapist, "You are free to go.  The door is right there [I pointed to the door]; however, out of concern for our children's safety I will not leave them with you."  I didn't shed a tear, I was firm and unwavering, and I was genuinely willing to let her go - it was up to my higher power to influence her to change her mind - I was resigned if that is what she wanted, I would let her have it; albeit, on my terms, not hers.

The following morning, she was doting on me, and I was being painted white and being idolized by her.  A few days later, we had another couple's session, and the therapist was gobsmacked that she was idolizing me after she had just announced a separation and the look on the therapist's face was priceless.  My wife no longer had any control over me with her divorce threats, as I would now call her on it, and the power of her control had shifted to me as I pretty much took her manipulative action of the divorce threat and reversed it on her, and asked her to leave - it worked in my situation.

Your situation is different and a bit worse, as you have already moved out into your own place.  You need to think outside of the box, to shift the power of control from her to you.  From the sound of it, she is doing a pretty good job, as you are completely on the defensive and she hold almost all of the control, at the moment. 

Perhaps we can brainstorm, and come up with a 'hail mary' type play - it's an extreme long shot, on reversing the power of control from her to you.

The next time she tells you that she loves you, and is attracted to you.  What do you think of saying something along the lines of "Babe, I also think you are very attractive and I really love you too.  I want to be there for you and [son].  I really would like to support you by being there for you when you need me, as I will always put our family first.  I will also support your interests of swimming, and [son] with his activities too.  As I have supported you, I too would also enjoy being supported in what I do like my job and my personal interests.  I really want to make this work for you; however, I really do not feel that I am supported in this and, and this is unacceptable to me."

Wait for her response - if she agrees [unlikely] then ask her "Thank you, for being supportive.  I feel we can best be served by seeing my therapist again, as you brought up some really valid points that I need to work on, and I want to support you in our relationship."  Avoid talking about the hobby until much later, until a good relationship with the therapist is established.

If she disagrees [likely] then perhaps mention "I really enjoyed being with you and [son].  Unfortunately I cannot see a way forward at this time - I wish you the best of luck in whatever you do."    If she continues to string you along with her ultimatum then call her on it.  "That is an ultimatum, and I will not be with someone who does this to me.  I wish you the best of luck in your life; however, should you change your mind on the ultimatum, I will be here until [you give a reasonable deadline] and then I will move on.  I thought we had a good thing going on, I respect you with your passion for swimming, and [son]'s activities too.  You know I will do more than most other men would do for you; however, I would like some similar reciprocity in return - it is up to you if we get back together or not."

Wait for an answer, if it is in the positive, then you give your ultimatum in return, which should be a long the lines of "I really wish I could believe you are serious about getting back together with me.  I need some reassurances you have the best interest for our family" [you are turning the tables on her] "and I would like for us to work on this inside of couple's therapy, using the therapist as a referee for our differences initially until we can work it out amongst ourselves, as it obviously isn't working right now".

Perhaps dangle the 'carrot' of "I will not do my hobby, as long as we are working to better our relationship in [meaningful] couple's therapy as I really want the best for our family".  Be willing to do this, until the therapist can address the hobby issue, which could happen in a month, or a year, or even more.

In essence you are modifying her ultimatum to be inline within ethically meaningful boundaries which is agreeing in principle with her ultimatum, but on your terms, not hers - if she accepts, the balance of power [of control] will shift and then you can start meaningful work on your relationship where everyone can benefit, not just her.

Being mindful, the scenario, of being 'outside the box' is a very very long shot, and may be a 'non-starter'; however, if I was in your particular situation, as you have described it - that is how I would approach it.  I cannot tell you what to do - all I have done is made some suggestions, you can use it, modify it to suit your scenario, as you know your situation the best.  You can also think it is rubbish, and you can try something else completely.  If you choose to try something else, run it by your other thread for their opinion, and/or me if you would like, as they have a lot of sound advice too.  I am being mindful that this is the bettering board, and I am making suggestion to better your relationship or reverse the breakup already in progress as you already live separately; however, by modifying her ultimatum, can result in no change or worsen, and the break-up will continue.

What do you think of the 'hail mary' long shot I have come up with by brain-storming a little bit?

I actually had this same thought.  But I'm not sure what the result would be.  I won't give this up for good, it's one of the few things I do for myself that give me joy.  Whether I stop for one month or one year, eventually we'd get back to me leaving the house to go do this.  She hasn't said that this is my "mistress" explicitly, that's more of my interpretation of how it makes her feel.  I am wondering if I took a break and went back if that would actually be worse for her.  She would go from getting all of this attention to having to share again.  Something would have to change for her during that period and I'm not sure what that would be.  She shows absolutely no interest in seeing a therapist and seems to resent the idea.  Unfortunately this is not something that folks under 21 are allowed to do (just a rule by the group).  And at this point her son and her have built up so much animosity about this that I can't even really mention it without getting sour faces.

I think your analogy of a 'mistress' is an accurate one.  At one point in time my wife has accused me of having an 'affair' with a licensed therapist as well - definite crazy making behaviors.  I've also been accused of f**king the other playdate mothers as well of our children.  There is no end in the madness if there are no boundaries.

Do not give up on your hobby; however, you can use it as a carrot to 'persuade' or 'influence' her to actually do therapy.  I too hated therapy initially, in the beginning, but grew to love it.  My wife was the same way.  Do everything in your power to get her into therapy, start with baby steps, and work up from there.  My wife and I are almost 5 years in, and it only has really been taking off since January of this year.  My wife literally tried to kill herself when I started my own self-care [hobby], but has grown to embrace it.  Things can change with good therapists.

She has mentioned a few times that she's surprised I've not mentioned that I don't want to lose her.  Although recently I did call that out explicitly "please don't leave me, I need you and love you" and that was met with something like don't beg for something that you have complete control over.  That really took the wind out of my sails.  I really feel I need someone in my life that can encourage and support the tiny needs I have.  It's not asking too much.  I am confident that she'll never change and if I stay this will always be a battle.

 

It's all about 'control' and you need to shift the power from her as it is very abusive, to you.  You don't have many options to do this.  Think outside of the box to do this, you might consider the long-shot.  It will always be a battle if she thinks she is in control.  This needs to change - only you can make this happen, if at all.

And even if I gave this up I'd spend time doing something else that would become a problem.  She's often said that I prioritize work over her so that would be the next item on the chopping block.  She would somehow need to let this go, even a little and I don't see that happening.  I've given up all that I can.  No more. 

I think you are likely correct in your assessment.  The only way for it to change is to shift the balance of power away from her towards you.  Don't give her any more than you already have.  Modify her ultimatum in a manner to being fair to both you and her, a compromise, and work with a licensed professional to make your relationship better.

You cannot change her, only she can do that.  However, you can shine a spotlight on things she won't like, and that can influence her to change - I did this for my wife, took a lot of trial and error to get things going in a good direction for her; however, my efforts are finally paying off.  My therapist has opined that I 'willed' the change that occurred with my wife.

If and when you do shine the spotlight, do so very carefully, as if you do too much too fast, there is a good chance she will run.  If you didn't share the bit about talking about 'together'ness by her, you could already be at this point.  The worst that will happen, is what you have already resigned yourself to, and that is the break-up.  The best is it will start a long and difficult journey to recovery.

I do wish you the best of luck; however, it is a long shot, and I will pray for your success.

Take care with self care.

[usagi]

Thanks for the feedback and advice Salty,

I can appreciate the recommendation that I'd need to think outside of the box on this.  I'd not really considered changing the dynamic whereby I'm more on the offense rather than defense.  Less reactionary and more proactive.

Kells had posed the question of whether I was letting this break up happen to me or was it a decision I was actively making.  My response was that it's a bit of a mix.  She's sort of initiating but I'm not really doing much to stop it.

I would be willing to take a break from my hobby for a few months under the caveat that we start going to couples counseling together to sort out our issues.  I like the idea of using that as a carrot to get her into a therapy setting.  The worst that could happen is what is already happening, that we'd actually break up.

As I explained on the other thread, I'm just tired at the moment and need a breather.  I'm tired of the negativity and the ridiculous focus on my hobby as a toxic element in my life that somehow destroyed my relationship with my family.

But, I supposed even now I'm on this forum talking through it so maybe I'm not done.  Otherwise I'd just walk away entirely.

She'd need some help changing if she can manage to do it at all.  It would require a professional and a measure of cooperation on her part.  I'm just not feeling that at the moment.  Since she's been reaching out to me I know she's probably still like to be with me.  I just don't feel like she can change.

I'll think about whether or not I have the energy to try.  I love her dearly but something's got to change.

[SaltyDawg]

I can appreciate the recommendation that I'd need to think outside of the box on this.  I'd not really considered changing the dynamic whereby I'm more on the offense rather than defense.  Less reactionary and more proactive.

When I was passive in our therapy sessions, it only got worse for me.  This was from August 2019 to May 2022 until her most recent suicide attempt/gesture.  From my experience passivity does not work with a pwBPD.

I realized my children were taking the brunt of my wife's anger when I was not home, and I needed to be there in order to protect them.  I also went from a good 6-figure job; however, due to a career ending injury, I went to a 5-figure pension that matches my wife's income +/- $100 per month.  If she were to divorce me at that time, I would have been at a serious disadvantage.  Now that 3 years have passed, not so much as our incomes are nearly identical.  At the time "Failure was not as Option" for me, so I had a huge motivation to do something in order keep my children safe and not to get screwed financially for life and not afford to keep my children safe, so I had to think outside of the box and the obvious change was going from a defensive posture to an offensive one and become proactive.

I have also observed, going on the offensive will either make or break a relationship - she will either change or she won't and if she doesn't, will not tolerate not being in control, and will ultimately leave - I know this is what happened in my previous BPD relationship where I was less invested and a lot more open to assert my control.

Kells had posed the question of whether I was letting this break up happen to me or was it a decision I was actively making.  My response was that it's a bit of a mix.  She's sort of initiating but I'm not really doing much to stop it.

Let's look at the fact that YOU have ALREADY moved out of the home into your own place, that is a very strong indicator and non-verbal communication that you want separation and want the break-up to happen.

Whereas she has repeatedly indicated she still loves you provided that you stop your hobby. [It will likely be something else if you give up your hobby].  I would agree that you are not doing much to stop it.  Please be mindful, a pwBPD, would likely not think that she is the one initiating it, especially when she has given you that ultimatum, if you do break up, in her mind it will be ALL your fault, and not a mix as you perceive it.  She is likely thinking she is doing everything in her power to stop it by giving you the ultimatum and professing her love for you, and you are the one leaving her as most pwBPD have black/white thinking with no shades of gray.

I would be willing to take a break from my hobby for a few months under the caveat that we start going to couples counseling together to sort out our issues.  I like the idea of using that as a carrot to get her into a therapy setting.  The worst that could happen is what is already happening, that we'd actually break up.

I agree.

As I explained on the other thread, I'm just tired at the moment and need a breather.  I'm tired of the negativity and the ridiculous focus on my hobby as a toxic element in my life that somehow destroyed my relationship with my family.

But, I supposed even now I'm on this forum talking through it so maybe I'm not done.  Otherwise I'd just walk away entirely.

If it wasn't your hobby, it would likely have been something else, unless complete enmeshment was achieved by her, and even then it would not be enough, as I have described above in my case.

It is human nature to have 2nd thoughts on the matter when you have lamented 'maybe I'm not done'.  You decision will be life changing for you, and it will also be life changing for her and her son too.  I would suggest talking this out with your own individual therapist to gain better clarity on what you should do for you, and only you can look out for yourself the best in this particular situation.

She'd need some help changing if she can manage to do it at all.  It would require a professional and a measure of cooperation on her part.  I'm just not feeling that at the moment.  Since she's been reaching out to me I know she's probably still like to be with me.  I just don't feel like she can change.

I'll think about whether or not I have the energy to try.  I love her dearly but something's got to change.

I think your assessment of the situation is good that 'change' must happen, she will need a lot of help to change provided that she is willing to do so or even capable of it.  It will require an enormous amount of energy to try on your part, and even a greater amount of energy on her part.  This is something you need to consider.

Many therapists in their books, blogs, and podcasts have indicated if there is any hope of change for a person change with a PD is to give them an ultimatum to get and stay in meaningful therapy or you will leave.  It sounds like you are close to this point, you may want to talk to your individual therapist on this at length.

I wish you the best of luck in your journey with or without your pwBPD.  You need to do what is best for you.


I will share, I was in a previous relationship with a different pwBPD/NPD/+ and when she crossed a hard boundary of cheating, I did leave only to find another person with OCPD and BPD who is my one and only wife with BPD being the common denominator.  My wife is faithful, and did not cross my hard boundary - I even looked when she accused me of not being faithful.  If you do leave, just be aware the chances of pairing up with another pwBPD is very high - I have had to do a lot of work on myself to figure out why I attract and/or am attracted to persons with issues as I have been in two romantic BPD relationships, and seem to inexplicably attract them, like moths to a flame, even when I am not looking.

You are at an emotional 'crossroad' right now.  Only you can look after yourself the best.

Take care with self-care.