in an extreme situation with someone with extreme yelling and near-violence

[markray]

 

My wife is acting with extreme symptoms and no counseling or discussion is helping at all.

There have been periods of time in the past when there were symptoms (deep criticism, stonewalling, yelling, etc.)

But it's gone to another level now.

up to an hour of day of outright yelling

temper turns on in a heart beat

verging on violence, (throwing things, breaking things)

We've been to 4 counselors, as long as they will focus on my issues, she's willing to keep going, but as soon as they touch on one of her issues she says "they don't know what they are doing" and she either doesn't want to go back, or just literally argues with them the entire time.

This is at a extreme level, leaving would be the easiest option.

but I'd really rather try to work through it, if at all possible.

But I need tools.

I've read the book Stop Walking on Eggshells

In the past, just de-escalating worked - walking away, shallow responses, time

But now, nothing works.

If I leave for a few hours or the day, then it subsides . .

but comes back with a vengeance within a day or so.

I wrestle with "boundaries" - refusing to engage at all when she's that angry - but I don't feel like that's really working.

I don't want to leave.

What are some tools when things are so advanced?

Thanks for any insight.

Mark

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Mark,

I'm so sorry to hear that things have escalated. This very much echoes my own situation. My dBPDw started out with small transgressions (verbal abuse, negativity, blame-shifting, etc.) and escalated into full-blown domestic violence. The only way that I was able to end it was by placing a hard boundary on violence. I told her that no violence of any kind would be tolerated in our house. We have a S3 and he should not be exposed to that. I said that if things ever escalated to violence the police would be called.

Before I laid down this boundary I spoke to a friend of mine on the police force. I explained my wife's diagnosis and told him all about the history of her violent behavior. I asked his advice on what to do the next time it happened. He told me to call the non-emergency police line (not 911) and to explain that it was a mental health situation so that the responding officers would be aware and try to de-escalate rather than just come in and arrest. A few weeks later my wife attacked me and I called the police before she could actually hit me (she had started throwing things at me.) When the police arrived the first thing they asked me was if she had hit me. I told them no, but that I wanted to have them come and de-escalate the situation before she hit me. They said that since she hadn't hit me no one would be arrested, but that had she hit me she would have spent the night in jail. This scared the hell out of her and she hasn't tried to lift a finger against me in the 11 months since.

I would encourage you to speak to your local police and explain the situation to them. Ask for their advice on what to do. Be on the record as having spoken with them ahead of time and make sure that you share your wife's mental health condition with them. There is always the fear on the part of abused men that they will be arrested rather than the female perpetrator. Having this discussion ahead of time will give them a heads up on what is going on and following their advice will greatly reduce the chance that this will happen.

I know that this sounds like a harsh boundary, but it isn't. This is protection for you and for her. Left unchecked, abuse will always escalate. My wife has broken a large framed picture over my head while I was asleep, glass and all. I could have been killed. She could have ended up in prison for life. Calling the police was an act of mercy and was necessary for my safety.

Likewise, I have a boundary about suicide threats/attempts. Threats will be called into the local mental health crisis line. Attempts will be a call to 911 and a 72-hour involuntary hold. Again, this boundary is for her protection and is completely necessary.

PwBPD do not like boundaries and will push back against them, but you have to hold strong. The longer the boundary is in place, the less they will push back against it. You are the only one in the equation who can bring some peace and sanity to your home. Your wife is not capable or willing to do so. You have an obligation to be the leader in this relationship. Tools like validation and de-escalation techniques are secondary to boundaries, in my experience, when dealing with situations like violence or suicide threats/attempts. These are situations that need to have hard, clear boundaries with real consequences.

I would be happy to share more or answer any questions that you have about what I have done to control the extreme behavior in my home and how it has gone so far. Please feel free to ask me anything and reach out at any time.

Best of luck,

HurtAndTired

[kells76]

Just want to say from me, too -- glad you found us.

Like HurtAndTired shared, you're not alone in having to cope with escalating violence with a pwPD (person with a personality disorder -- diagnosed or not). These can be scary situations, so it's good you recognized that you wanted more support.

Just a few questions to get a better feel for your situation (details can matter in terms of the most effective and safest path forward):

*How long have the two of you been married?
*Do you have any kids? If so, how old are they, and has your W ever raged at/targeted them?
*Do you have any pets or animals in the house, and has your W ever raged at/targeted them?
*Do you work outside the home? Does your W?
*Have you stayed in touch with any of the "failed" counselors? Would any of them be able to work with you as an individual?

We recently had to call CPS about what my H's kids told us was going on at their mom's house (Mom has many BPD traits, Stepdad has many NPD traits). Their stepdad was raging, driving erratically, and throwing/breaking things while the kids were around. Things are kind of stable post-call, but very tense, and the investigation is still going on. All that to say -- we've been in a similar position as you.

These are such difficult circumstances, and I get where you're coming from of wanting more tools for when things escalate. I'll wait to hear more details from you, and you won't be alone here.

In the meantime, when you have a moment, you can check out our Domestic violence for men thread. Really important info and background in there.

Fill us in, whenever you get a chance;

kells76

[markray]

Thank you, wow, it feels so good to know someone else has gone through this - and even worse it seems

we are still going to 2 of the failed counselors - but one she just completely thinks is totally wrong and rages on about him, the other is a couple and they have pretty much just backed off of telling her anything

She is a different person when we are with the counselors (still very defensive, but not rageful)

I could talk with any of them, but not in confidence

Actually, one of the counselors clued me in to this site, when she walked out of a zoom call and it wasn't being recorded.

If it weren't for his encouraging words to me, I don't know where I'd be.

I'm not exactly afraid for my life, although anything can happen.

I'm more interested in learning how to de-escalate the rage.

I've tried "going for a walk" and she just yells about that and nothing changes.

I've threatened to spend a night in a hotel room if she doesn't stop, but I always just resort to going for a walk.

if I truly believed that rock solid boundaries would make a difference, I'm all for it - but I don't want to make things worse if that's not the best way.

re: *How long have the two of you been married? 16 years
*Do you have any kids? If so, how old are they, and has your W ever raged at/targeted them? -no kids
*Do you have any pets or animals in the house, and has your W ever raged at/targeted them?  our dog of 14 years passed away a few months ago. She was never angry towards the dog, she loved the dog dearly.
*Do you work outside the home? Does your W? I theoretically work from home, but have been working at coffeeshops for the last few months. That is pretty much a daily fight, she doesn't think I should leave the house, but I cannot get anything done, as she'll come into my my office and start fights at any time.

*Have you stayed in touch with any of the "failed" counselors? Would any of them be able to work with you as an individual?

again, none of them would work with me individually and not be able to share with my wife.

She believes she should know anything I talk about , and it's not worth the fight,

The main reason I came here finally was I was hoping I could find a counselor that could advise me and W wouldn't know about it.

(Oh, and it feels horrible to be so secretive, but there is no other way. I desperately want to see things better, and will do just about anything to find a way to help her)

thanks so much for being a listening ear

[ForeverDad]

I too faced your situation.  In my situation I had thought having a child - wow, some two decades ago - would brighten my spouse's life watching our child discover the joys of life.  Sadly, she drew away, at first I thought she couldn't love both husband and child so chose our child.  But it worsened as our child approached the age she had been when her abuser stepfather entered her family's life.  I later concluded she couldn't trust me, despite over a dozen years married, since I as a father now reminded her of her stepfather, her dysfunctional FOO (family of origin).  I hadn't changed but her perception of me had.

I too tried joint counseling but my now ex-spouse flatly refused.  That in itself was a bad sign.  BPD is most impactful on the people in close relationships and that's precisely why the closest person (me) couldn't get her to listen to me, she could not or would not get past the perceived emotional baggage of the relationship to truly listen to me.  And if she wouldn't listen to therapists either, well...

It wasn't long, a few months later, before I had to face the fact that my marriage was imploding and there was nothing I could do but to protect myself and especially protect my parenting.

Do you have children?  That can greatly complicate a separation and divorce, both in the process and the expense.

Often - but not always - as we look back we can identify some triggers that help explain why it suddenly got worse when it did.  I suspect at this point there's little you can do if she is in such determined Denial and Blame Shifting.  Time will tell.

However we do have a Tools & Skills Workshops board with many communication, boundary, and other tips.  Here is a directory of the topics.  Notice the articles on boundaries.  Since pwBPD resist boundaries, the boundaries are for us to implement and determine how we can respond to poor behavior.  Also, it explains there why JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) doesn't work (logic can't impact such intense emotional perceptions) but SET, DEARMAN, BIFF might, well, at least for a while.

If I may add a suggestion when you call the police... What usually happens is what happened to me.  It was a weekend.  She worked herself into a rage - we were in a private scenario, at home - and threatened to kill me so I called the emergency line.  Two officers responded.  By then she calmed herself down though she was clearly angry with me.  They spoke to her, she must have claimed to be a victim and me an abuser because one of the officers told me to hand my quietly sobbing preschooler over to her and "step away".  I tried to comply but he shrieked and clung tighter to me in my arms.  What kid won't go to the mother?  The officer looked at me for a moment, said "work it out" and they departed.

I had three voice recorders but that one I was using that afternoon didn't have a speaker that worked.  So I had the recording but no way to document to them who the aggressive person was.  Later when I finally got a divorce lawyer ( I had failed to prepare by finding a lawyer in advice) he remarked he had been an officer in a prior career and their goal when arriving at the scene of a domestic dispute was to separate the people and defuse the dispute.  He was almost stunned why I wasn't carted off.

So ponder how you would be able to document to the arriving officers that you weren't the one in an aggressive rage, well aware that your partner would almost surely claim to be the victim (the system generally assumes women are by default the victims) and you the aggressor.  If you both claim to be the victim and no witnesses, police will likely side with the "poor helpless" woman.

I had quietly recorded and it did help slightly in my separation and divorce process, but it also was a form of insurance that I wasn't the aggressive or threatening one, insurance that helped me sleep at night.

While we hope you two figure out whether you have a future together, you would be wise to (very quietly) implement some strategies to protect yourself in advance of further conflict - legally by locating an experienced family law attorney as well as financially and emotionally.

[Mad Dog]

Mark, I read your post and it really hit home. Following is my initial post from yesterday. Hello to everyone on this blog. My story is not unique, yet despite attempts at counseling I often feel hopeless. 30+ years ago my wife and I had issues which I did not understand. I am an alcoholic and sober for 25 years. As time went on, I began to feel like something was wrong with me and I sought out a therapist. After several sessions the therapist said she would like to meet my wife if possible. My wife agreed to meet as a couple. At the first and only meeting my wife had prepared a written statement which she proceeded to read. When the therapist asked her if we could just talk, her response was "no" and she continued on with her written statement and then had nothing more to say. I continued to work with the therapist for several months, focusing on my self esteem. Several years later, when things again became unbearable, I sought out therapy again for myself. The original therapist retired so I started anew. When my wife would ask, "why are you going to therapy?" I would respond I was "trying to be a better person". After several sessions my wife decided she wanted to attend "to see what lies I was telling about her." The initial visit was like the first therapist, she had a written script which she would not deviate from but at the end of the session said she would come back. I was elated. After several couples sessions the therapist felt it would be best if each of us worked with our own therapist. I willingly agreed to seek out someone for myself, I was thrilled that my wife had established a relationship with a therapist. We continued on with out individual therapists with written consents that the therapists could consult and discuss our sessions as needed. Shortly thereafter, it was recommended that we see a therapist the specializes in "high conflict relationships". After just getting started (2 sessions), the therapist missed out scheduled visit (it was a 40 minute drive) for us. She was apologetic but wife was done. I continued with the individual therapy with my therapist. I expressed my concerns about not getting any answers and nothing seemed any better in my marriage. She assured me she had been in contact with the other therapist. Finally, during one of our sessions (all of which were via Zoom due to Covid, she recommended "Stop Walking on Eggshells." More accurately, she stated that someone recommended the book. I quickly bought it and my eyes were opened and things started to make sense. After several more sessions I decided to stop the therapy as I now had an idea of what had been going on all these years! We continue to have episodes of rage and I have learned to accept that they are part of the condition. I have gone on long enough for the moment and just had to unload as I had just been verbally assaulted once again. I feel better now that I have found this forum. Any help and insights would be greatly appreciated. We have been married for 48 yrs. and have 3 grown daughters who are married. I have been warned not to share their mother's diagnosis with them, as it will cause more harm than good. Thanks for your time.

[markray]

@foreverDad @Maddog

Thank you sincerely for your thoughts and advice.

It's great to know I'm not alone, but also depressing that my greatest fears seem to be real:

that it's very very hard to get help through this.

I will check out the forum materials on boundaries specifically for bpd

Thanks so much

And @ForeverDad - thanks for the advice on the police and even documentation for down the road.


Thank you

[markray]

Is there a counseling service or person specifically trained in dealing with bpd relationships?

Thanks

Mark

[kells76]

Is there a counseling service or person specifically trained in dealing with bpd relationships?

As odd as it sounds, you could contact a DBT treatment center, describe your situation, and see if they would work with you (the non-BPD). DBT trained therapists would likely have a lot of experience with BPD relationships.

It can also help to go on the psychologytoday.com "therapist finder" for your location and use the filters "BPD" and/or "DBT". Again, even though the therapists may be trained to work with a pwBPD, they would also be able to work with non-pwBPD. It's not like their training is limited to PD's and would damage others; in fact, DBT can be helpful for anyone wanting to build better emotional management skills.

You could also consider asking your current therapist(s) for recommendations. T's will know that they can't help everyone and can't specialize in everything, and hopefully would be willing (and have the network and connections) to direct you to someone more specialized.

[markray]

Thank you! @kells76

[ForeverDad]

Finally, during one of our sessions (all of which were via Zoom due to Covid, she recommended "Stop Walking on Eggshells." More accurately, she stated that someone recommended the book. I quickly bought it and my eyes were opened and things started to make sense... I now had an idea of what had been going on all these years!

What has astounded me is how the general populace is woefully ignorant of how to identify and deal with mental health issues and their impact on our lives.  I sure wasn't clued in on what had been happening in my own marriage.  I was totally clueless on how to deal with what I'd never expected to experience in my life.

Another resource are the books by William Eddy, a mediator, lawyer, lecturer, author, etc.  They're available everywhere including at his website (HighConflictInstitute.com).  They deal with better communication skills, how to recognize and deal with people who have traits of acting-out mental illness, how to protect yourself in a high conflict divorce.  Many of his books are discussed on our Books board.