Do you listen to your pwBPD when they tell you to leave or go to a hotel?

[campbembpd]

Numerous times I get told to leave and more often getting told to go to a hotel or not come home. Leaving I'm fine with - I'm doing it more and will be gone for an hour or two then return. Now she's escalating wanting me to leave for a hotel. And I've thought about it myself if she can't get it under control.

When she's told me to get the F out and go to a hotel, I don't really respond or I'll be calm, walk away and in a little while I'll ask if she still wants me to go. She doesn't and like yesterday I just stayed in the spare room and we didn't have much contact for the night. I was good with that.

She's blowing up my phone again today. Telling me not to come home and stay in a hotel. I'm not going to debate her. I would love a break from her but I don't really want to stay in a hotel (costs, plus it means leaving my s19 with special needs at home and my d17 if she's around as well with her). She says mean things about me to them while I'm there so I can only imagine what she would let loose if I wasn't there. My s19 is intellectually disabled and gets upset when mom starts yelling and swearing. Of course my uBPDw wants me to tell him and our d17 that it's my fault and I'm the one making her so mad. I don't do that. But you see my dilemma.

I'm thinking maybe I just go virtually NC at home if she tells me to leave. I'll lock myself in the guest room or the office if need be. Or I'll go out for a couple hours then come back when it's time for bed. Still have the issue about leaving the kids there when she's in a mood/rage.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

I wonder if some of your recent questions are all kind of pointing at the same thing.

Things were "livable" for many years with you and your W. You were kind of able to make it work, without having to dig deep into what you really wanted -- maybe a lot of the focus was on the kids, then your W and her dysfunction and alcoholism. Appeasement of your W kept things rolling along. Maybe the demands were a lot, but within the normal range of what you thought a spouse might want. Extreme, but normal range. Now, conflict and disorder are escalating. Usual routes of appeasement aren't "working". The demands are getting more extreme: do this with your money, go to a hotel, don't go to a hotel, pick me up, let me go, spend this money, let me drink, drink with me.

For whatever reason, the demands and conflict and dysfunction have crossed over from "extreme, but manageable with appeasement, and frameable as normal" to "beyond extreme -- not normal any more".

All that time where appeasement was the go-to route, you didn't have to look at or even decide what you wanted. The focus was on your W -- what she wanted, what would calm her down, what would make your life livable.

I get it. No judgment. We do the best we can in the situations we're in. Kids do this all the time -- try to manage a crazy home life by using dysfunctional coping skills.

Then things change. Kids grow up and those coping skills, instead of helping them survive, now hurt them and their relationships.

Things changed for you, too: the conflict increased. Appeasement, instead of helping you survive, is hurting you. Your W demands you go to a hotel. "Old you" is wondering: maybe I should just do what she wants?

Without that old skill of appeasement -- of just doing what she demands -- things are going to feel different and raw, because you'll have to get in touch with a part of yourself that has been hidden for many years; the part of you that has wants.

Ultimately, I think this is about more than "she says she wants me to go to a hotel, should I do it". I think it's about -- can you get in touch with what you, campbembpd, want as an individual? And can you be OK with the fear of what might happen if you act on what you want?

So that would be my question for you.

Do you want to go to a hotel?

[LittleRedBarn]

I'm new here, and I hope I'm not speaking out of turn. If I am, please say!

My question is:
Why does it have to be you who goes to a hotel? If your wife cannot be in the house with you, why doesn't *she* go to a hotel?

[Amina]

Hi, I don't live with my on and off again partner, but sometimes when I am at his place he will want me to leave suddenly, without a trigger or warning, and tell me to get out now, or he'll call the police.  Everything is great--but then--suddenly--over the years I've learned he can go from an awesome, intimate joyous moment, day/s, to absolute cruel and definitely not normal.  The way he responds to my texts at these times is outright hostile. Tragic, tragic, tragic--I so wish I had a cure--or could stop the splitting by saying the right thing--but there is truly something very trauma based in him--though I know this is purely genetic for some with a cluster B.  I don't know if I lived with him, how this would possibly be managed when he told me to get the f-out now, or xyz.  Sometimes I would go in another room and remain calm, and then he would stop the split--other times I left.  I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here in regard to such a situation.

[KayakerDude]

I'm thinking maybe I just go virtually NC at home if she tells me to leave. I'll lock myself in the guest room or the office if need be. Or I'll go out for a couple hours then come back when it's time for bed. Still have the issue about leaving the kids there when she's in a mood/rage.

Does she treat the kids badly at all? If the answer is not a resounding NO! then perhaps you AND the kids need to leave for a hotel. Or ask her to leave for a night?

I get it. I have been living this situation for so many years and it isn't easy to see so clearly from inside that circus tent. And I also understand the $$$ of the situation. I would have so many, many times gone and stayed someplace if I could have afforded it in years past. But I couldn't really afford it so I never realized how that one night away could give me some clarity on the situation.

[thankful person]

hi campbembpd,

sorry to hear things are bad for you. things have mostly stabilised here for some time now, but last year i was told to get out, leave etc etc many many times. because we have a young family i didn’t want to leave the children, w is birth mother and they sleep with her and she breastfeeds so i couldn’t (wouldn’t be able to anyway physically) take them with me. i also wouldn’t want this to look bad for me if there ever was to be a custody battle. i also can’t afford it anyway and live a long distance from family. the worst it got last year was her threatening to physically throw me out of the house (she is strong enough), but somehow she didn’t actually do it. i have been warned on here about her turning the kids against me, but actually atm all three of them clearly prefer me (the safe, fair, predictable parent), this causes no end of problems for me too with my wife’s jealousy.

tbh i don’t even know or understand how i got unpainted black. but i hope things improve for you.

[Skip]

There is a fine line between providing recuperative space, offloading emotional distress (I feel bad, he should be made to feel bad, I'll feel a little better), and stonewalling/breakdown of the relationship (https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down).

Do you have a sense where this falls today in this continuum?

Why does it have to be you who goes to a hotel? If your wife cannot be in the house with you, why doesn't *she* go to a hotel?

Some years back, my partner suggested I go to a hotel and I did. I went to The Four Seasons and bought a Four Seasons bathrobe so that she thought I stayed there. She never suggested it again.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Camp,

Does your S19 have space in his room for an additional single bed? Is there another room in the house with a locking door that has more room for the two of you if it doesn't? It might be an ideal solution if you could become your S19's roommate (even if it is just on an as-needed basis.) You guys could hang out and play video games, chat, read books together, etc. with the door locked and safely away from your wife. This would give you guys more bonding time and would protect both of you from her behavior.

I too worry about my S3 and him being frightened by Mom's out-of-control behavior (drinking, screaming, throwing things, swearing, etc.) As he gets older things may reach a breaking point if she continues to refuse to acknowledge her problems and seek help...but I will cross that bridge when I come to it. The point is that I understand both your desire to be away from her by staying at a hotel and also your desire not to leave your children at the mercy of her raging while you are not there to protect them. Additionally, I know that money is really tight due to the financial abuse that she is subjecting you to and that this additional cost is not something that you need (even a cheap hotel can be upwards of $100 a night nowadays.)

I think your idea to go NC at home is the right way to go. She is the one with the issue and the dysregulation. If she wants someone to leave, let it be her...with her paying the bill of course. I would even suggest that you lay down a boundary. Something along the lines of "I will not leave the children alone in the house with a person who is angry and shouting obscenities. If you ever feel that one of us has to leave and spend the night in a hotel to get some space, then feel free to do so with your own money, but I will not be leaving the house." It is a statement and not a discussion. I refuse to discuss my boundaries once I have declared one, although have to repeat them when my wife is violating that boundary. I repeat the boundary and then follow through with the consequence. It is shockingly similar to how I enforce rules for S3, although given my wife's stunted

I know that we have discussed this in a thread a while back, but I have taken SaltyDawg's method of Grey Rocking when my dBPDw is going ballistic and then go full NC in the house (safe room with locked door) if the Grey Rocking doesn't stop her after a few minutes. The whole point of Grey Rocking and then the in-house NC in conjunction is that it deprives my wife of the desired response from me. Not only does she not get to see me upset, but I do not engage at all. It all comes back to not reinforcing undesired behaviors (behaviorism) with the goal of that behavior becoming extinct when deprived of reinforcement. If you want a toddler to stop throwing temper tantrums the best way to do that is to ignore the tantrum and continue on as if it is not happening.

I know that validation is the ultimate goal of interaction here, but when a relationship enters a level of abuse that is this high, the priority has to be establishing a safe environment for yourself and your children. That is where strong boundaries come into play. I do validate my wife more often now, but I fall back on boundaries when she becomes dysregulated and go Grey Rock/NC when she is severely dysregulated and/or drunk. You can't validate a person who is completely out of control, you can only get yourself and your children to a safe place.

Using this method, along with other boundaries/consequences, has actually improved my marriage. While my wife still gets dysregulated and still drinks, she doesn't lose control as often as she used to and does not drink to the point of being completely wasted as often. When she does lose control, it is not as severe as it used to be. Physical attacks have completely stopped for the better part of a year. Silent treatment has not lasted more than a day for the past 6 months. She has not yelled at me within earshot of our S3 in 6 months. Divorce threats have completely stopped for 5 months. Do not despair because things have gotten this bad. You can still claw your way back to a sane/safe house if you hold strong. I'm rooting for you!


HurtAndTired

[HurtAndTired]

I repeat the boundary and then follow through with the consequence. It is shockingly similar to how I enforce rules for S3, although given my wife's stunted

*edit

I repeat the boundary and then follow through with the consequence. It is shockingly similar to how I enforce rules for S3, although given my wife's stunted emotional development, she is probably at the same emotional maturity level, if not younger, than S3.

[LittleRedBarn]

@HurtandTired

This is a very encouraging post and gives me hope for the future of my own marriage.

One question:
What is Grey Rocking?

[HurtAndTired]

Hi LittleRedBarn,

Grey Rocking is completely shutting down all responses to the person who is verbally abusing you. You are like a grey rock. You say nothing, you don't look at them, don't acknowledge them. You completely ignore them. This is not easy to do if they are screaming at you inches from your face, but it is possible. The idea is that the person who is abusing you is feeding off of your responses to them. They get something out of your reaction, so you starve them of that desired reaction in an effort to kill the behavior.

I Grey Rock my wife if she is becoming seriously emotionally dysregulated but has not descended into full-on verbal/emotional abuse yet. I usually give her a warning like, "I am not participating in this conversation anymore" and then Grey Rock. If she continues to abuse me after a few minutes of Grey Rocking, I stand up and leave the room. I may or may not tell her where I am going. If I am leaving the house I will say something like "I am going to the store and will be back in an hour" or something like that. If I am going to my safe room, I say nothing.

Sometimes I will skip the Grey Rock and jump straight to leaving for my safe room. This happened the other day when she crossed a boundary about not criticizing me after being intimate. I gave her a warning saying "I told you that I will not participate in negativity in what should be a moment of closeness for us, if you don't stop being negative I will have to leave." She would stop being negative so I grabbed my things and went to sleep in the guest room with the door locked (my safe room.)

Establishing these boundaries and removing any kind of reinforcement for her abusive behaviors has been very empowering for me and very frustrating for her. She no longer gets to unload her negative emotions on me and has been forced to try new coping mechanisms to deal with them. Some of them have not worked so well (excessive drinking) while others have been more productive (she is now taking an antidepressant that is reducing the rages.) YMMV.

HurtAndTired

[kells76]

There's a fine line to walk between:

taking a break for myself
protecting myself (and the relationship) from receiving abuse

and

stonewalling
silent treatment
withdrawing

It's critical to remember that "no contact" is typically a tool we may temporarily use when we are detaching from a relationship. "Going no contact" is not the same as taking a break from a conflict. It's part of ending a relationship. "No contact" isn't a relationship-building tool. If we're talking about a minutes-to-hours-to-days break, that's really different from "no contact", which isn't something we pop in and out of frequently.

Additionally, to the best of my understanding, "grey rock" is not a psychologically robust or empirically supported phrase. I think I've heard it in reference to making oneself an unappealing/boring target to a pwNPD. Again, this isn't a relationship-building tool.

What we can do is understand what we're trying to do/communicate when we use those phrases.

If we go back to Gottman Institute work on "The Four Horsemen", we find a discussion of stonewalling (silent treatment/stopping responding) versus taking a break:

The fourth horseman is stonewalling, which is usually a response to contempt. Stonewalling occurs when the listener withdraws from the interaction, shuts down, and simply stops responding to their partner. Rather than confronting the issues with their partner, people who stonewall can make evasive maneuvers such as tuning out, turning away, acting busy, or engaging in obsessive or distracting behaviors.

It takes time for the negativity created by the first three horsemen to become overwhelming enough that stonewalling becomes an understandable “out,” but when it does, it frequently becomes a bad habit. And unfortunately, stonewalling isn’t easy to stop. It is a result of feeling physiologically flooded, and when we stonewall, we may not even be in a physiological state where we can discuss things rationally.

If you feel like you’re stonewalling during a conflict, stop the discussion and ask your partner to take a break:

“Alright, I’m feeling too angry to keep talking about this. Can we please take a break and come back to it in a bit? It’ll be easier to work through this after I’ve calmed down.”

Then take 20 minutes to do something alone that soothes you—read a book or magazine, take a walk, go for a run, really, just do anything that helps to stop feeling flooded—and then return to the conversation once you feel ready.

Maybe this is a good thread to drill down into our own motivations.

If I leave to go to a hotel, why am I doing that? Am I appeasing? Escaping? Shutting my partner out? Or am I being a choicemaker to take a break for myself, letting my partner know when I'll return, and planning to use my tools and skills to return to the relationship when we're closer to baseline?

[kells76]

And I also want to be super clear that I'm not suggesting "you should engage when you're receiving abuse".

Declining to participate in escalating interactions is healthy.

Physically leaving an abusive interaction (verbal abuse, doorway blocking, etc) is not always easy and clear-cut. I recognize that as well.

Just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

[LittleRedBarn]

@HurtandTired - thank you for the detailed explanation. It is very helpful.

Yesterday morning, my husband crossed a boundary that I had told him about before - criticizing me while we were naked in bed together, before we got up. I said, "Oh no, not this," and he then accused me of being over-sensitive. At that point, I got out of bed and told him that I was going to brush my teeth and then make breakfast for us, and we could talk about what had just happened when I'd done that. I was too half-asleep to talk about it coherently right now, I said. I kept my tone measured and calm.

@kells 76 - Am I right in thinking  this is what you describe as 'taking a break for myself'?

This behavior on my part triggered a full-on melt-down, including threatening to end the relationship. Threatening to leave is not something he ever did before, the first time was around a month ago and it has happened a couple of times since then. I'm wondering whether it is a reaction to me starting to set boundaries? Previously, I would have stayed in the room and listened to a catalogue of my failings for the next couple of hours. I'd have been doing a lot of stonewalling in the past, too. I'm working hard on 'taking a break' rather than stonewalling at the moment.

[HurtAndTired]

Thanks for the feedback Kells,

To be clear, I am talking about what to do in situations of severe abuse, or when the situation is clearly headed to that abuse. I do not lightly suggest ignoring a dysregulated spouse as this is counterproductive to relationship building. Perhaps NC is too strong a term to use, I was only using Camp's own terminology. When I used the term, I meant that once the door to the safe room is closed and locked no interaction with the dysregulated person should take place until they have returned to a rational baseline. This is the whole purpose of a safe room.

I am talking about removing yourself from a dangerous situation (personal protection and protection of children) rather than engaging with a person who is beyond having a rational conversation (when they are in pure emotional brain/the rational part of the mind is turned off.) This can include either completely ignoring the verbal abuse in the hopes it will stop (Grey Rock), and/or physically leaving the situation until the other person is back in their rational mind. The ultimate goal is to rebuild the relationship, but when there has been ongoing and severe abuse, the household must be returned to a baseline of safety/no abuse before those productive discussions can take place.

Having a safe room with a locking door is a must for anyone who is in an abusive relationship. For both the abused spouse/partner and any children who are directly or indirectly suffering from the abuse. Having a "go bag" for yourself and any children and a plan to leave with a safe place to stay if the home becomes unsafe is also a must. Ditto with having 911 on speed dial for violence or suicide threats/attempts. Not all pwBPD are abusive, and those who are abusive are not all abusive at the same level. It is a spectrum and my experiences fall at the more severe end of that spectrum. Different situations call for different tools at different times.

My primary goal is to end abuse in my house. Rebuilding the relationship is the secondary goal and is completely dependent on achieving the primary goal. I have made significant progress in rebuilding the relationship, but only after getting the abuse down to a level that has made this possible (strong boundaries.) On a scale of 1 to 10 of abuse, my marriage was at a solid 9 a little less than a year ago. It is now down to a 3 or 4. Not ideal, but it is progress and has put me in a position where I can use relationship-building tools more frequently and rely less on boundaries for my protection and the protection of my S3.

I am not endorsing stonewalling, giving silent treatment, or emotionally withdrawing from the relationship. My suggestions are all about not participating in abusive interactions. I hope that clarifies my post, and I apologize that I was not more clear in stating the reasons, motivations, and goals for using the tools that have worked well for me. While I am concerned for Camp, I am more concerned about how this is affecting his S19 and am hoping that they can find a solution that lessens the distress that he must be experiencing from these interactions between Mom and Dad.

HurtAndTired

[HurtAndTired]

LittleRedBarn,

I was in EXACTLY that same situation with my wife (i.e. laying in bed naked after being intimate) when she started to criticize me a few weeks ago. She was saying some really mean things to me. I know that it is a part of the "push-pull" dynamic of BPD where I had gotten too close to her and she felt the need to push me away, but man does it hurt when she does this! This is an established boundary as criticizing my body, my performance, and other things about me immediately after intimacy (that she initiated btw) is incredibly hurtful and destructive to our relationship. How can it not be when you are as vulnerable as a human being can be in that moment?

My incidents with this have all happened right before we go to sleep for the night, so my response is to go sleep in the guest room when it happens. Like you, I keep my voice and words positive/neutral while still firmly stating that this behavior is not ok. This gives my wife a chance to go through a sleep cycle and reset to baseline before we engage again, and hopefully have a more productive interaction than would have been possible when she was angry and dysregulated the night before. Your morning-based solution with making breakfast was brilliant, but I am sorry that you had to go through that. I know all too well how hurtful that type of criticism is.

Your husband's escalating behavior in response to your boundaries sounds an awful lot like an extinction burst to me. Extinction bursts happen when a behavior that has previously produced desired results no longer produces those results. An example would be a rat that has been trained to push a lever to receive a food pellet (reinforcing the behavior.) If the scientist doing the experiment no longer gives the food pellet in response to the rat pushing the lever (removing the reinforcement), the rat will start pushing the lever like mad to get the food pellet. This is the extinction burst. Increased and escalated use of the previously reinforced behavior in hopes that things will "return to normal." Eventually, the rat will understand that pushing the lever no longer works and will give up the behavior (extinction) because the reinforcement has been removed.

However, if the scientist slips up and gives out the pellet even one time after a lever push the rat will have learned that if he pushes the lever enough it will eventually lead to getting the desired result. This is called intermittent reinforcement and it is very hard to undo. This is what keeps people pulling the lever at casino slot machines. If you lay down a boundary, you must be 100% consistent with enforcing it or you will give intermittent reinforcement. The rat will keep pushing that lever knowing that it will get that food pellet on push 100 or push 1000 if it just keeps up at it long enough. My wife had prolonged extinction bursts that lasted for months after I started enforcing my boundaries a little less than a year ago. By being 100% consistent in enforcing those boundaries the problematic/abusive behaviors have either stopped or have been greatly reduced. Riding out extinction bursts is no walk in the park, but it is worth it when you come out on the other side. Stay strong and remember that your husband escalating his behaviors to include threats of leaving is most likely him trying to get you to "act normal" again.

Search out "extinction burst" on this site to find out more information about this phenomenon. People who are much more experienced and knowledgeable about behavioral psychology than I am will do a better job of explaining it.

HurtAndTired

[LittleRedBarn]

Hi HurtAndTired

This is immensely helpful, thank you so much! Understanding the pitfalls of intermittent reinforcement will definitely help me to find the courage to keep going with my boundary-setting.

Fighting, naked in bed, first thing in the morning has been going on for over ten years in our relationship. In the past, the only times it didn't happen is if one of us had a morning appointment that forced us to get up early. We are both retired, so sometimes the fights went on for hours. They always took the same form: I said something 'wrong', he would reprimand me, I would apologize, he would say that's not good enough, I would apologize again, he would get more critical and annoyed and it would escalate to the point where he was yelling abuse at me and I was lying totally still, saying nothing, terrified and waiting for him to stop.

Once I got into therapy, my therapist explained that it was okay for me to set a boundary that I wasn't prepared to fight naked in bed in the mornings. Before that, I really didn't know how to deal with what was going on. So my behavior a couple of days ago is new, and I'm guessing that is why my husband had such a strong reaction.

He was talking tonight about what he would say to his therapist about it tomorrow. He said that would say to her that, when the alarm went off, he'd thought I'd had a bad night and was blaming him for it. That was why he had started criticizing me. And that when I'd said I was going to make breakfast, I had left him alone with some *very* difficult feelings and I shouldn't have done that.

I said that I thought that described his experience accurately. I'll be interested to hear what his therapist has to say about it!

[Skip]

Grey Rocking is completely shutting down all responses to the person who is verbally abusing you. You are like a grey rock. You say nothing, you don't look at them, don't acknowledge them. You completely ignore them. This is not easy to do if they are screaming at you inches from your face, but it is possible.

The term Grey Rocking is urban slang most often defined using the same as passive aggression and stonewalling. It's essential to see that.

We need to be careful not to rename destructive things with constructive terms. Corporations do this all the time. "Increase efficiency for the new year" sounds a lot better than "laying off 20% of the workforce before Christmas" or "going to skeleton crews to keep the company from tanking which may be unavoidable."

How we speak to ourselves is crucial.

When "Grey rocking, passive aggression, and stonewalling" are staples in our relationship, the likelihood of the relationship surviving, according to studies, is in the 10-12% range.

To reiterate what Kells said. No one is saying anyone here should accept abuse. No one is telling anyone that they shouldn't use passive aggression. No one is saying not to have a "safe room."

What is being said is to recognize that if this is your only option, understand that you are in the nth stage of relationship demise. You need to be thinking/planning to exit the relationship. There are discussions about this on the conflicted board.

If you are still hope to recover the relationship, give thought to Allen Fruzzeti's guide:

.	Before you can make anything better, you have to stop making it worse.

To save the relationship, both parties need to find a way to come together, feel safe together, and have a way to minimize the damaging effect of BPD behaviors.

Let's look at the one action discussed here: dealing with a confrontation Let's not use "abuse" - let's use terms like "overwhelmed" or "flooded with emotion". "Safe room" — it implies victim and aggressor - how about just  "space".

The most constructive way to deal with this is to discuss a plan with your partner (when both of you are relaxed and not struggling with an issue or behavior). Talk about how to handle confrontational or emotionally flooded situations. Get agreement to a plan to restore calm, and get everyone back to baseline so that you can talk.

How might this look?

Rather than silence and a march to the "safe room from my abusive a-hole partner"...

Hey partner, I see you are upset, and I want to talk about it, but right now, I'm emotionally overloaded and need to regather myself. How about I take the dog out for a walk, you finish making dinner, and we sit down tomorrow to talk about what is upsetting you?

This won't instantly solve things. The first time you do it, your partner will likely act just as bad as they do now. The difference is that they will have agreed with what you are doing and they will see afterward that you will talk to them. It will take a number of times before this works. And sometimes it won't, but all in all, it will be more constructive over time.

"Over time" is also an important concept.

We have a puppy who barked all the time and at everything. Bark bark. 3 PM. Bark bark. 3 AM. We tried scolding it. Still barked. We tried comforting it. Still barked.

Then we decided to reward it. Every time she barked, we said good dog, gave her a treat, and put her in her crate. For her this was to good to be true (except maybe for the crate part, she likes to be with the family).

This did not affect her barking at first, but by week two, we could see improvement. We are three months in. She barks less and less each week and will typically put herself in the crate after she does. She has gone from 50 times a day to 6-7 times a week.

I don't want to compare humans to dogs. I did want to show a very simple implementation of "over time".